Wouldn't Gnome be great if it had...

[MadsRH]

Let me just start of by saying I hate all the M$ bashing I often find in Linux related forums. I simply find it childish. If you don't like their products - don't buy them!

The reason for this introduction is that people always start of on the wrong foot, when a blog post or a thread starts with the word "Microsoft".

I've been following the PDC 2008 and Windows 7, and I have to say, there's a lot of cool features I would love to see come to Linux.
Take a look at this taskbar: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ipg6ltIZRw0
or this color hot-tracking: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DLZcGDyacHo&feature=related


Great improvements have already come to Linux. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Mark's new user-experience team will bring in the future. By the way, fantastic Ibex release!


//MadsRH

[gnuvistawouldbecool]

Give them a few weeks, and then they'll probably have it in Gnome...

[SunnyRabbiera]

Oh wow how innovative, they are copying Mac OSX again!
Yawn

[Paqman]

Oh wow how innovative, they are copying Mac OSX again!
Yawn

User interface isn't the sole realm of any one OS. They're all used by humans, and results of UI studies done with one OS (or none) are valid for all. It's not really about "stealing".

Besides, the whole ethos of open source is that software isn't the intellectual property of any one person. How can you steal what should belong to everybody anyway? Let the proprietary systems argue with each other about stealing while our boys (and girls!) keep openly sharing great ideas.

[MadsRH]

User interface isn't the sole realm of any one OS. They're all used by humans, and results of UI studies done with one OS (or none) are valid for all. It's not really about "stealing".

Besides, the whole ethos of open source is that software isn't the intellectual property of any one person. How can you steal what should belong to everybody anyway? Let the proprietary systems argue with each other about stealing while our boys (and girls!) keep openly sharing great ideas.

Well spoken! Thank you :-)

[SunnyRabbiera]

User interface isn't the sole realm of any one OS. They're all used by humans, and results of UI studies done with one OS (or none) are valid for all. It's not really about "stealing".

Besides, the whole ethos of open source is that software isn't the intellectual property of any one person. How can you steal what should belong to everybody anyway? Let the proprietary systems argue with each other about stealing while our boys (and girls!) keep openly sharing great ideas.

Yes but MS claiming stuff like this as their own innovation is what cheeses me of...
Having icons instead of a taskbar, my god how inventive when OSX had something similar for ages.
Want real innovation, use linux

[phoenix_snake]

Oh wow how innovative, they are copying Mac OSX again!
Yawn
just like kde and gnome have copied from windows right?

[Dixon Bainbridge]

I've come to think that the only way to really improve the DE of any operating system is to have a collection of drunken pirates in the bottom left hand corner of the screen that sing sea shanties at you when you mouse over.

[Archmage]

Take a look at this taskbar: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ipg6ltIZRw0
or this color hot-tracking: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DLZcGDyacHo&feature=related


Great improvements have already come to Linux. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Mark's new user-experience team will bring in the future. By the way, fantastic Ibex release!

Isn't this already in KDE?

[SunnyRabbiera]

just like kde and gnome have copied from windows right?

Well basic functions like taskbars and such have been around for ages, its just that Microsoft had the edge of making some headway in the UI department.
But if we are talking about rip offs here it all goes back to the Xerox Star workstation and its innovations... and how much both apple and microsoft stole its thunder.
No one company can claim 100% innovation, all have contributed to how most UI's function in todays market.
Xerox gave us the initial concept of a GUI based interface for computers
Apple gave us the basis of what a GUI should be
Microsoft gave us the tools we need to make the GUI functional and fun
and Unix and its derivatives took it all and made many innovations on top.
All would not be possible if Xerox did not come first.
But companies like MS and Apple have made it very hard to even think of a "innovation" as they have the money and power they need to claim the smallest little thing such as double clicking or having a big dock at the bottom of the screen as their own.
Unix like systems have innovation too though, virtual desktops, open development and great communities are great assets to the computer world.
All OS's have a place, but its this so called "innovation" crap that makes me mad.
Linux UI's never claimed any real innovation except the virtual desktops, and at least we dont have overpaid lawyers trying to oust those who have imitated it like both OSX and windows.

[Paqman]

Yes but MS claiming stuff like this as their own innovation is what cheeses me of...


Fair enough. Most of what you see in the media coming from Microsoft is written by marketing drones though, so you can take it all with a large pinch of salt. Marketing being what it is, if Windows 7 came with a round object attached to an axle, their press release would claim Microsoft invented the wheel.

[Paqman]

I've come to think that the only way to really improve the DE of any operating system is to have a collection of drunken pirates in the bottom left hand corner of the screen that sing sea shanties at you when you mouse over.


*Wants!*

[jomiolto]

Isn't this already in KDE?

Yes. At least most of it. I don't know if it shows previews of all the windows if there are several in a group.

I just can't stop wondering why Microsoft doesn't implement workspaces by default. It's one of the things that really bothers me whenever I use Windows somewhere -- having several programs running without a way to organize then on several workspaces is really inefficient. If I used Windows on my own computers, I could install extra applications to get workspaces, but I can't do that on public computers :(

[bobulator]

I know what would rock the socks off people, if GNOME had this addition BEFORE Windows 7 came out, maybe we could use their Sneak Peek speeches to nab ideas off them?

In a totally lovely and Free Software way of course :D

[phoenix_snake]

Well basic functions like taskbars and such have been around for ages, its just that Microsoft had the edge of making some headway in the UI department.
But if we are talking about rip offs here it all goes back to the Xerox Star workstation and its innovations... and how much both apple and microsoft stole its thunder.
No one company can claim 100% innovation, all have contributed to how most UI's function in todays market.
Xerox gave us the initial concept of a GUI based interface for computers
Apple gave us the basis of what a GUI should be
Microsoft gave us the tools we need to make the GUI functional and fun
and Unix and its derivatives took it all and made many innovations on top.
All would not be possible if Xerox did not come first.
But companies like MS and Apple have made it very hard to even think of a "innovation" as they have the money and power they need to claim the smallest little thing such as double clicking or having a big dock at the bottom of the screen as their own.
Unix like systems have innovation too though, virtual desktops, open development and great communities are great assets to the computer world.
All OS's have a place, but its this so called "innovation" crap that makes me mad.
Linux UI's never claimed any real innovation except the virtual desktops, and at least we dont have overpaid lawyers trying to oust those who have imitated it like both OSX and windows.

Apple bought the GUI from Xerox, then they improved it, and then licensed parts of it to Microsoft but Microsoft stole everything but they kept a certain amount of differences to win their case in court.

What Apple did wasn't stealing though what Microsoft did was wrong I agree, but tell me, if Microsoft hadn't stolen it no matter what way they did it in, APple could have patented it forever and never let anyone have it....who knows?

I haven't seen any Unix innovations on the desktop other than virtual desktop, like you said.

great communities, every product has that, open development, which is a great idea, but it isn't really working very well is it.

people keep making incompatible versions of the same thing, which is horrible for development, like Nokia said.

I have already given my thoughts on why linux on the desktop has a very long way to go, check out this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=939961

Actually check out my post in this thread, that is 139:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5992968&postcount=139

oh yeah and about gnome getting this stuff, I doubt it cause too many features may confuse the user, I think kde 4 could get it though.

[Half-Left]

KDE4 in trunk already has the off screen window effect, they have but on plasma, so you move your widget or icon off screen or under the panel and it slides back with proper spacing on the screen.

[MadsRH]

If these features already are in KDE4 it's great - but I'm a Gnome user so hopefully it will come to Gnome too.

I'm not sure how things actually work, but it seems that KDE and Gnome (and others) could work better together.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Apple bought the GUI from Xerox, then they improved it, and then licensed parts of it to Microsoft but Microsoft stole everything but they kept a certain amount of differences to win their case in court.

What Apple did wasn't stealing though what Microsoft did was wrong I agree, but tell me, if Microsoft hadn't stolen it no matter what way they did it in, APple could have patented it forever and never let anyone have it....who knows?

I haven't seen any Unix innovations on the desktop other than virtual desktop, like you said.

great communities, every product has that, open development, which is a great idea, but it isn't really working very well is it.

people keep making incompatible versions of the same thing, which is horrible for development, like Nokia said.

I have already given my thoughts on why linux on the desktop has a very long way to go, check out this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=939961

Actually check out my post in this thread, that is 139:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5992968&postcount=139

oh yeah and about gnome getting this stuff, I doubt it cause too many features may confuse the user, I think kde 4 could get it though.

Yeh your proposals on limiting the freedom in linux is so wonderful :mad:...
Yawn, if I want one boring interface I would use OSX or windows.

[phoenix_snake]

I think the only hope for the linux GUI is Kde 4, lets see everything is a plasmoid so that means you can add/remove plasmoids that add features to your desktop, that gives you a lot of customization options and it means you can have your GUI look like whatever you want.

lets say OS X adds a feature you all want, in kde 4 you probably just need to create a new plasmoid to give you that feature, this ensures that the linux desktop doesn't look old.

Since kde 4 is actually quite good looking for linux desktop standards thats a benefit to attract new users, and with the amount of options kde 4 gives in customizations you all can actually make themes for your distro which are actually good looking.

[hessiess]

boring

[SunnyRabbiera]

I think the only hope for the linux GUI is Kde 4, lets see everything is a plasmoid so that means you can add/remove plasmoids that add features to your desktop, that gives you a lot of customization options and it means you can have your GUI look like whatever you want.

lets say OS X adds a feature you all want, in kde 4 you probably just need to create a new plasmoid to give you that feature, this ensures that the linux desktop doesn't look old.

Since kde 4 is actually quite good looking for linux desktop standards thats a benefit to attract new users, and with the amount of options kde 4 gives in customizations you all can actually make themes for your distro which are actually good looking.

Yes but KDE4 is still too new to make a standard in my eyes and unfortunately many distros are making it a standard when I feel it is not ready yet.
KDE 4.2 is looking promising yes but I cannot tell if it is what will lead linux to the promised land, but I am sure by kde4.3 things might be ready enough to make it a standard.

[chris4585]

Well basic functions like taskbars and such have been around for ages, its just that Microsoft had the edge of making some headway in the UI department.
But if we are talking about rip offs here it all goes back to the Xerox Star workstation and its innovations... and how much both apple and microsoft stole its thunder.
No one company can claim 100% innovation, all have contributed to how most UI's function in todays market.
Xerox gave us the initial concept of a GUI based interface for computers
Apple gave us the basis of what a GUI should be
Microsoft gave us the tools we need to make the GUI functional and fun
and Unix and its derivatives took it all and made many innovations on top.
All would not be possible if Xerox did not come first.
But companies like MS and Apple have made it very hard to even think of a "innovation" as they have the money and power they need to claim the smallest little thing such as double clicking or having a big dock at the bottom of the screen as their own.
Unix like systems have innovation too though, virtual desktops, open development and great communities are great assets to the computer world.
All OS's have a place, but its this so called "innovation" crap that makes me mad.
Linux UI's never claimed any real innovation except the virtual desktops, and at least we dont have overpaid lawyers trying to oust those who have imitated it like both OSX and windows.

Nicely said! I agree 100%

[Half-Left]

This is why in my view KDE4.2 will be ahead of them. The taskbar in that Windows7 demo works exactly like OSX dock where the icons are the task bar rather than bars, thats a direct copy. this is something OS X has done since OS X in 2000.

[phoenix_snake]

Yeh your proposals on limiting the freedom in linux is so wonderful :mad:...
Yawn, if I want one boring interface I would use OSX or windows.

at least I am telling you the truth, when you manage to make linux a proper platform then you can hope it takes over windows, until then forget it.

also limiting freedom? how is that, you can still create your thousands clones of different apps all you want.

as for boring, boot in to a live ubuntu cd and look at the desktop for a second, thats what called boring if you ask me.

[phoenix_snake]

Yes but KDE4 is still too new to make a standard in my eyes and unfortunately many distros are making it a standard when I feel it is not ready yet.
KDE 4.2 is looking promising yes but I cannot tell if it is what will lead linux to the promised land, but I am sure by kde4.3 things might be ready enough to make it a standard.
oh yeah this reminds me, seriously congrats on kubuntu 8.10, its still the worst kde distro out there, even PC-BSD is better all it lacks is hardware support.

but your gnome version was good though....

[SunnyRabbiera]

at least I am telling you the truth, when you manage to make linux a proper platform then you can hope it takes over windows, until then forget it.

also limiting freedom? how is that, you can still create your thousands clones of different apps all you want.

as for boring, boot in to a live ubuntu cd and look at the desktop for a second, thats what called boring if you ask me.

but you are suggesting unifying all the desktops, toolkits and apps under one roof...
This is open source not Apple or Microsoft you know.
And if you are that superficial about looks go back to vista or OSX, seriously.

[phoenix_snake]

but you are suggesting unifying all the desktops, toolkits and apps under one roof...
This is open source not Apple or Microsoft you know.
And if you are that superficial about looks go back to vista or OSX, seriously.

go back? I am using all 3, don't need to go anywhere.

yes I know this is open source, doesn't mean you still can't offer a true development platform right?

if thats what you think though then keep dreaming of the day you lets say you all over take Apple and Microsoft oh yeah, forget about commercial apps for desktop uses to.

oh yeah and about choice tell me how many office suites can I run on linux, just one and thats openoffice, don't mention stuff like koffice, they aren't comparable to openoffice let alone microsoft office and how many good office suites can I run on OS X?

lets see, your favorite openoffice, iWorks, and Microsoft Office to...wow, which platform offers more choice now for the desktop user.

don't tell me its because microsoft and apple don't choose to port their apps over to linux. one of the major reasons they probably don't do that, is cause its a nightmare to develop stuff for linux.

[SunnyRabbiera]

go back? I am using all 3, don't need to go anywhere.

yes I know this is open source, doesn't mean you still can't offer a true development platform right?

if thats what you think though then keep dreaming of the day you lets say you all over take Apple and Microsoft oh yeah, forget about commercial apps for desktop uses to.

oh yeah and about choice tell me how many office suites can I run on linux, just one and thats openoffice, don't mention stuff like koffice, they aren't comparable to openoffice let alone microsoft office and how many good office suites can I run on OS X?

lets see, your favorite openoffice, iWorks, and Microsoft Office to...wow, which platform offers more choice now for the desktop user.

don't tell me its because microsoft and apple don't choose to port their apps over to linux. one of the major reasons they probably don't do that, is cause its a nightmare to develop stuff for linux.

Bull, and FUD.
Its very easy to develop for linux, just many dont do so because there is no "money" in it.
Linux has plenty of tools to make programming on it great if you look hard enough.

[phoenix_snake]

Bull, and FUD.
Its very easy to develop for linux, just many dont do so because there is no "money" in it.
Linux has plenty of tools to make programming on it great if you look hard enough.
Bull and FUD? Really? Check your market share, its about 0.9% right? there is a reason for that? accept it or not, its true.

also its not nice to tell people to go back to windows just cause they are suggesting improvements, another reason for 0.9% market share may be?

about the not enough money in linux, these are reasons too but very small ones, keep on making your excuses about why no one develops good software for you it won't change a thing.

when OS X came out it had 0% market share to, look at it now, there is a reason for that and I have stated those earlier in the post you read.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Bull and FUD? Really? Check your market share, its about 0.9% right? there is a reason for that? accept it or not, its true.

also its not nice to tell people to go back to windows just cause they are suggesting improvements, another reason for 0.9% market share may be?

about the not enough money in linux, these are reasons too but very small ones, keep on making your excuses about why no one develops good software for you it won't change a thing.

when OS X came out it had 0% market share to, look at it now, there is a reason for that and I have stated those earlier in the post you read.

You sound like a Microsoft ad, seriously.
You call putting all programs/ applications under one roof "improvements"?
You think marker share is all there is?
Seriously do you have any sense of how great linux already is without your so called "improvements"?
Linux has come a long way in recent years, if you have not noticed.
Linux has made more progress in 4 years then both OSX and Microsoft has done in 10, yet you are blind to see it.
What yoyu are suggreting will not make linux better, no it will make it worse and it will be no better then the enemies it is trying to fight.
If we force all developers to stick to one interface, one code, one architecture, one mind we would be no better then MS or Apple.
What linux need is its innovation of having choice and freedom, something you dont seem to respect.

[phoenix_snake]

You sound like a Microsoft ad, seriously.


Seriously what is it with you ubuntu users? Anytime someone criticizes or reccomends improvements for the OS you get these standard responses:

1. go back to windows
2. don't spread FUD
3. don't feed the trolls
4. how much did Microsoft pay you to say this?
5. a new one " you sound like a microsoft ad"
6. oh yeah don't forget this very popular one each time someone complains of their problems "Works For MEEEE"



You call putting all programs/ applications under one roof "improvements"?


this method works doesn't it, how many people actually use and like Windows and OS X again compared to linux?



You think marker share is all there is?


is there somethine else to measure success of an OS than by how many people actually care about it?



Seriously do you have any sense of how great linux already is without your so called "improvements"?


oh yeah linux is really great, I have buggy drivers and no useful apps, thanks a lot its truely awesome.



Linux has come a long way in recent years, if you have not noticed.


yes it took linux 17 years am I right, and other OS's like OS X came about 9 years after linux and still are better than it and more popular. kind of embarassing isn't it? 17 years....WOW. If you had offered a real platform from the beginning who knows how much marke share you may have had?



Linux has made more progress in 4 years then both OSX and Microsoft has done in 10, yet you are blind to see it.


really? prove it, don't tell about your wobbly windows....



What yoyu are suggreting will not make linux better, no it will make it worse and it will be no better then the enemies it is trying to fight.


how do you know it will make it worse, oh I am sorry I didn't know you had the ability to look in to the future of different events.

it won't make you better than the enemies? it will be open source and free right, isn't that what you all are about?



If we force all developers to stick to one interface, one code, one architecture, one mind we would be no better then MS or Apple.


yes you won't be any better cause if you standardized everything you won't be putting your developers through the torture and misery of developing for linux.

you are not forcing devs to do anything they will still have the choice for other OS's and this way they might at least consider your OS.



What linux need is its innovation of having choice and freedom, something you dont seem to respect.

yes I really love to have a million different distros all incompatible with each other and all of them with their own unique look but they are all run the same applications

and oh yeah they all have their own ways of doing things to for example make a pppoe connection in openSUSE and you go to yast, make a pppoe connection in ubuntu then type in terminal "sudo pppoeconf", this kind of things destroy your users.

oh yeah having 1000 text editors is also great, I feel so free with this amount of choice!

[Bölvaður]

I would like to say ; phoenix_snake and SunnyRabbiera, ess tea eff you.
Man you are never ever going to see each other's side. I'll get a software development student that is working on his doctor now to argue with an artist on how to make os, you both look at it from way too different directions to be able to talk together or make sense.

Im studying user interaction and am working on putting out a product that is the most advanced media centre there is.

I have complained before about how angry you can get Sunny, and phonex... omg dont let me start. You are both wrong and still both right in your own way. Just please, dont waste ubuntuforums bandwidth for immature posts.

I actually agree with both of you in this matter.
I agree with phoneix that some of the effects could possible be useful, but it is very superficial. It can be easily implemented by tweaking compiz, it is VERY little that has to be done, it's mostly there now.
But it would not be big improvement on usability for anyone other than the normal compiz people that sees something that looks cool and therefore use it. It's not really rubbish but it's not that great and there might be better ways to this.

[ACMiller]

As an interlude to this rather heated debate (which definately is not what the OP intended on by posting those clips) I think that the windows 7 interface has some good points. From what I saw of those clips, I thought they looked half decent and I defintately felt some OS envy (you know that feeling when you think, "I wonder when we'll be able to get that on gnome...")

I moved away from windows over a year ago, and I love my ubuntu as much as the next person, but I also see that microsoft messed up in the eyes of many people when they released Vista, and so they're perfectly poised for a big come-back. Really, think of it. They have the money, the staff, the motivation, and they've stated that the aim of Windwos 7 is to improve the user experience (unlike Vista which aimed to be too innovative and thus had multiple regressions in its hardware support). This is what will really attract people.

Now, if they could actually pull this off, I reckon it could be good for Linux too, competition is good right? However, I've always found that versions of windows always look better before they are released than they are to use once they're released. I definately won't be running away from my Ubuntu anytime soon.

[K.Mandla]

Temporarily closed until the younguns can play together nicely.