PDA

View Full Version : "Free" or "Open" DVD? Could this be done?



MetalMusicAddict
November 29th, 2005, 03:20 AM
This is a discussion to see if this is possiable. I do not want argumenitive or condescending remarks.
Just a good conversation. ;)

I really like creating video (DivX) and DVDs. Mostly indie stuff for bands. In Linux there are no apps that are as good (dont want a discussion on this) as ones I use on windows to do this.

With all the hastles that come with DVDs and surely comming disk based formats on linux could something "Open" be made? Something that might eventually be able to get hardware support but work as a DVD on a PC now.


So here are some things that got me thinking.
-DivX is what I use for .avi's. Since I keep up with DivX I know know that their new DivX6 format lets you create menus just like a DVD.

-Blue-Ray (http://www.answers.com/blue-ray) and HDDVD (http://www.answers.com/topic/hd-dvd) movies will have zero possibility of playing on Linux any time soon but they might be able to be used as mass storage disks.

-XviD and Theora (for filesize) very good and "open" video formats. As is Vorbis and does multichannel.

-The A/V portion of the DVD could be a .ogg container.

-XML could be used to make menus? Couldnt it?

With these things in mind it seems to be possible. Though Im no expert.


Some questions would be:
-How would the disk be structured?

-Can it be disk indepentent? ie: DVDs, CDs HD-DVDs and Blue-Ray could be used. I would want it this way.

-Can .ogg support subtitles?

-Can Xvid or Theora do Hi-Def resolutions?

-Should the "Open" DVD support Xvid and Theora?

Any others?

Basicly if this looks possible Im gonna try to get it going somehow.

In the end dont worry about the why. Can it be done?

Technical ideas?

gord
November 29th, 2005, 03:27 AM
whats the point of an open dvd if i can't play it on my dvd player?

MetalMusicAddict
November 29th, 2005, 03:37 AM
Hardware manufactures do support XviD, Vorbis and Ogg media. My DVD player plays them and many other formats of audio/video.

So the point would be to eventually get hardware support for it. In the meantime they would still work in your PC.

dudus
November 29th, 2005, 04:49 AM
I see this as a great questions. I think this is possible, though I'm not an expert either. Yes xml could be used to structure menus. In fact you should use XML to structure all content of the free dvd.

BWF89
November 29th, 2005, 04:49 AM
[B]-Blue-Ray (http://www.answers.com/blue-ray) and HDDVD (http://www.answers.com/topic/hd-dvd) movies will have zero possibility of playing on Linux any time soon
Playstation 3 doubles as a blu-ray player and it's hard drive is going to come installed with Linux (unless it gets changed at the last minute).

Didn't mean to get this thread offtrack with that comment, no need to have a discussion. Just thought it might be worth mentioning.

poptones
November 29th, 2005, 05:40 AM
A dvd player is just a specialized computing system, so of course it's possible. The barriers are economic, not technological.

I find dvds and menus a pain in the ass. If I want to watch a DVD the first thing I do is rip it and that's even if I only plan to watch it once because defects that can make a dvd drive spin noisily and video to dropout do not affect video playback from a hard drive.

That said, if such an open standard were to evolve of course some manufacturers would add them as features - just as they have added ogg and xvid support. The real question is "why?" There are no barriers to entry with the system as it is - there presently is nothing to prevent me from publishing a dvd that can play on anyone's player; I don't have to pay royalties to anyone and I don't have to beg permission. Where is the incentive to create this new standard?

dudus
November 29th, 2005, 06:31 AM
I think the incentive is that the new format should provide a easy architecture for the disc. Dvd standard was develop to keep the user from making his own dvds, it's just that hard.

So the new dvd shouldn't be called the 'Open' or 'Free' dvd, it should be something more like 'Easy dvd'.

Using this open formatas would lead to an easier way to encode, rip and author discs

MetalMusicAddict
November 29th, 2005, 12:55 PM
The real question is "why?" There are no barriers to entry with the system as it is - there presently is nothing to prevent me from publishing a dvd that can play on anyone's player; I don't have to pay royalties to anyone and I don't have to beg permission. Where is the incentive to create this new standard?
I see the legality of creating/using DVDs (and the new formats) on linux in the US as a barrier. As of now it requires illegal code.

In the end though Im thinking to the future. HDDVD and Blue-Ray. Linux I would be willing to bet will have zero support for movies.

Hell, If it could be done. I think it whould just be cool. Isnt that reason enough sometimes? :) Enough with the reasoning.

Anything technical that should be looked at?

poptones
November 29th, 2005, 07:32 PM
I see the legality of creating/using DVDs (and the new formats) on linux in the US as a barrier. As of now it requires illegal code.

No, it doesn't. Not even a little. There is nothing "illegal" about using any of the open source MPEG2 codecs even if it is "illegal" to distribute them in binary form without paying the licensing authority.

The only issue of illegality with DVDs is in cracking encrypted DVDs. There is no mandate upon anyone to css encrypt DVDs - self published or otherwise.

Kimm
November 29th, 2005, 07:47 PM
I had a similar though not to long ago, I supose your talking about some sort of Open format standard for Video Discs?

I had the very same though, but the idea to have them supported was just to grand so I just let it be.

Would be cool though, to have Video in Theora sound in Vorbis menus in something else and so on. I think I would love that ^^

MetalMusicAddict
November 29th, 2005, 11:12 PM
I see the legality of creating/using DVDs (and the new formats) on linux in the US as a barrier. As of now it requires illegal code.

No, it doesn't. Not even a little. There is nothing "illegal" about using any of the open source MPEG2 codecs even if it is "illegal" to distribute them in binary form without paying the licensing authority.

The only issue of illegality with DVDs is in cracking encrypted DVDs. There is no mandate upon anyone to css encrypt DVDs - self published or otherwise.
Thanx for settin it strait Matlock. ;) Do you have any ideas to make this work or do you just wanna be the Ubuntu fourms legal council? :) I know you did video work (avisynth I thought) so if you have ideas...

I simply want to try to start a project to have a Open Video Disk. OVD is what I wanna call it.

If theres noone here that can brainstorm Ill try elsewhere.

Malphas
November 30th, 2005, 12:41 AM
What are you talking about? poptunes is (correctly) saying that there's no need for what you're proposing because there's no legal obstacle preventing people from making a perfectly complaint DVD with open-source software - which, I believe - was your entire argument for creating an "open video disk" in the first place.

MetalMusicAddict
November 30th, 2005, 12:58 AM
What are you talking about? poptunes is (correctly) saying that there's no need for what you're proposing because there's no legal obstacle preventing people from making a perfectly complaint DVD with open-source software - which, I believe - was your entire argument for creating an "open video disk" in the first place.
Nope. Sorry dude. One sentence does not constitute my entire reason for wanting this.

Another reason is that their is no software like, say, Vegas video for making "perfectly complaint DVD". Lack of full featured software. The scope of what I want is more than my 1st post. Im looking for like minded people.

In the end this is off topic and if you dont have anything constructive to say Ide rather you not post. I wont respond to any more. If you have a comment off-topic, PM me.

poptones
November 30th, 2005, 03:38 AM
I'm not against brainstorming but I simply do not see a need and I doubt many others will either. Any new "format" would have to attain some level of popularity before appliance makers would adopt it - just as with ogg, mp3, etc. In order for it to attain said popularity it needs to be used by people and at present there isn't much need.

Frankly, I believe you are stuck in a nineties mindset. If you want to see where the next evolution leads look at stuff like vlc. What's needed is not a means of packaging pretty menus with video content because dvd already does that - what's needed is a means of packaging content that is portable between appliances and contains sufficient metadata to allow automated tools to identify the content - and desktop software like vlc is the breeding ground for that type technology.

I'm working on an information database that will automatically file information and seek new info based on relevant metadata - for example, if you have all the eps of battlestar galactica your machine knows exactly where they are (and you don't have to) and it will automatically locate new eps of bsg as they appear on usenet or bittorrent trackers. Ultimately this means your machine can act autonomously in locating, storing and accessing the data you want without having to ever screw with a "file save" dialogue.

You say you have more "purpose" than simply creating a doppelganger dvd, but thus far have not provided any rationale beyond this. If you want people to climb onboard your wagon the first step in convincing them is to explain why the ride you're on is so much better than the one they're already on.

MetalMusicAddict
November 30th, 2005, 11:49 PM
Edited 1st post to be more clear. Im not asking why just if and how.

Malphas
November 30th, 2005, 11:55 PM
Well, good luck trying to convince anyone to even consider your idea if you're not willing to put forward any effort into convincing people why there's a need for what you're proposing.

MetalMusicAddict
November 30th, 2005, 11:58 PM
Thanx for not having anything technical to ask/add. ;) Thanx for the luck.

Malphas
December 1st, 2005, 12:52 AM
Well for a start forget about XviD as although it's open source it's still an MPEG4 implementation and therefore no different from using an open-source MPEG2 encoder (such as QuEnc) to make a regular DVD. Also, the Matroska (MKV) container already supports most of what you're talking about (subtitles, DVD-style menus etc.), although this might aid you it also makes your proposal even more redundant.

MetalMusicAddict
December 1st, 2005, 01:11 AM
Well for a start forget about XviD as although it's open source it's still an MPEG4 implementation and therefore no different from using an open-source MPEG2 encoder (such as QuEnc) to make a regular DVD.
It is different. Its MPEG4. Not MPEG2. Hence the different name, to differentiate.

Also, the Matroska (MKV) container already supports most of what you're talking about (subtitles, DVD-style menus etc.), although this might aid you it also makes your proposal even more redundant.
I didnt know that about Matroska. And yes it makes it redundant. Doesnt mean its a bad idea though. ;) The world has tons of redundancy. I want to find people who might like the idea and tweek it to make it better. I never said it was concrete.

If you had only given this info 1st instead of being snippy this would be a different thread. Some people just feel the need to be mean I guess. It ok. Isnt the only place Im talkin about this. ;)

Malphas
December 1st, 2005, 01:26 AM
It is different. Its MPEG4. Not MPEG2. Hence the different name, to differentiate.
In the context of what you're trying to achieve XviD (an open-source MPEG4 codec) is no different from QuEnc (an open-source MPEG2 encoder). Also, I don't think anyone here is trying be mean or "snippy".

MetalMusicAddict
December 1st, 2005, 01:45 AM
Filesize is my reason for Xvid or Theora. They tend to be smaller than MPEG2.

Malphas
December 1st, 2005, 01:50 AM
Well in that case you'd be better off looking into x264 for video. But what you're now talking about is no more "open" or "free" than plain old DVD, which goes against your original post.

MetalMusicAddict
December 1st, 2005, 02:03 AM
Well in that case you'd be better off looking into x264 for video. But what you're now talking about is no more "open" or "free" than plain old DVD, which goes against your original post.
How?

Ive seen x264 but dont know much about it. Will look.