Microsoft blacks out screens - China goes to linux

[NE Key]

In short,

The windows update is detecting pirate software and blacking out the screen. This is very annoying to Chinese users, most of whom are using pirate Microsoft. Mainly because it is so incredibly expensive (in Chinese terms) to buy valid software.

from the story;

Cao Cen, vice chairman of Evermore Software, a distributor for Office in China, said Microsoft was trying to sell as many authorised copies as possible before domestic software usurped its share of the market. The Chinese government is funding programmers to come up with Chinese operating systems.

"China will move towards Linux fully in the future", said Mr Cao.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3240457/Microsoft-blacks-out-Chinese-computers.html

[Capt. Mac]

First Russia, then China... that's what, like 2/3 of the industrialized world?

[tomsa]

I suppose a billion or so Chinese might give linux a little more market share, if this comes to pass.

[handy]

Poor MS is getting hit hard lately.

I feel sorry for them.

I wonder when SB will retire?

[goksu]

I don't feel sorry. not at all for microsoft.

especially after the day when I reinstalled my laptop with my personal previously registered onthatlaptop serialkey and just couldnt activate the MF! Ms says all OEM licenses bought before a certain date are to be changed (upgraded the word they use).

thank god I had a complete hdd backup. reinstalled the image. continued limping. I am sick of all the debuging it needs to continue to work. My time is more precious than to spend on a closedsource system I dont know what hell it does on the background.

That day I installed dualboot Ubuntu. I had tried Debian before.
Ubuntu saw all my hardware except the webcam right away.

now installed Ubuntu onto new Laptop bought with no OS.

I love the stability, the openresourcefullness and the helpfull community.

thanks to all who somehow helped to get such a usable (for non linux initiaded ppl) OS up. thank you to the opensource community.

[TheSlipstream]

*sigh* Microsoft doesn't get that having a few million Microsoft users that pirate is better to maintain a monopoly with then the same number of Linux users.

[ukripper]

M$ is stuffed-up as China and India will lead to M$'s demise SB should be really worried by now whose quotes were "Linux is not worth a crap".

[pt123]

this is great for Linux, just imagine the number of developers that this could bring to Linux.

[sethvath]

Didnt China announce to go linux with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux some years ago, starting with government agencies?

[smoker]

when will ms realise, this does nothing to endear the company, especially to genuine users who are mistakenly labelled as running pirate software when wga gets it wrong. the pirates don't give a toss, the 'fix' is always available within hours!

still, the more it converts to linux, the better :-)

[Vince4Amy]

Simple, pay for the software. I cannot understand why it is such a problem for them to restrict usage of pirtated copies of an operating system, it's their product and if I designed some software to sell I wouldn't be very happy if someone pirated it.

If they can't afford it then they can switch to Linux, this will be good for opensource, but as far as I'm concerned I think it's entirely up to Microsoft with what they do to these software pirates of their operating system.

[ukripper]

I think it's entirely up to Microsoft with what they do to these software pirates of their operating system.

Does that include privacy of each and every user?

If I make a software I'd not develop a code to intrude and spy user's machine, MS has very unethical way to support anti-piracy I believe and more like holding postion in already monopolised market should be their priority not fighting piracy at first.

To sum up - It was a dumb move on MS part!

[handy]

I don't feel sorry. not at all for microsoft.

especially after the day when I reinstalled my laptop with my personal previously registered onthatlaptop serialkey and just couldnt activate the MF! Ms says all OEM licenses bought before a certain date are to be changed (upgraded the word they use).

thank god I had a complete hdd backup. reinstalled the image. continued limping. I am sick of all the debuging it needs to continue to work. My time is more precious than to spend on a closedsource system I dont know what hell it does on the background.

That day I installed dualboot Ubuntu. I had tried Debian before.
Ubuntu saw all my hardware except the webcam right away.

now installed Ubuntu onto new Laptop bought with no OS.

I love the stability, the openresourcefullness and the helpfull community.

thanks to all who somehow helped to get such a usable (for non linux initiaded ppl) OS up. thank you to the opensource community.

I've just spent three years of not running or working on other people's windows products, so I'm past reacting emotionally to the behavior of either their products or their board of directors.

It is a nice kind of distance to get from MS I'm sure you will enjoy the space yourself. :-)


*sigh* Microsoft doesn't get that having a few million Microsoft users that pirate is better to maintain a monopoly with then the same number of Linux users.

I'm sure that they do, they are as cunning as you can get. They would know what they are doing, & must have decided for some reason this move is worth it to their bottom line.

Or of course some drongo' in admin' blew it! :lolflag:

Take your pick?

[Half-Left]

This is not a defense of Microsoft but China is one of the biggest growing economies on the planet and they are complaining Windows is to expensive, pathetic.

[ukripper]

This is not a defense of Microsoft but China is one of the biggest growing economies on the planet and they are complaining Windows is to expensive, pathetic.

Come'on we in UK do the same given that we are already part of developed world!

[mips]

when will ms realise, this does nothing to endear the company, especially to genuine users who are mistakenly labelled as running pirate software when wga gets it wrong. the pirates don't give a toss, the 'fix' is always available within hours!


+1 And this applies to other companies as well including all this DRM crap. They are punishing their own clients with this stuff.

The hackers will always get around this so they don't give a damn.

[MasterNetra]

Hey if china can help improve ubuntu then great! :)

[phoenix_snake]

Simple, pay for the software. I cannot understand why it is such a problem for them to restrict usage of pirtated copies of an operating system, it's their product and if I designed some software to sell I wouldn't be very happy if someone pirated it.

If they can't afford it then they can switch to Linux, this will be good for opensource, but as far as I'm concerned I think it's entirely up to Microsoft with what they do to these software pirates of their operating system.

exactly, its their software let them do whatever they want and for the people here complaining about privacy, I doubt Microsoft is looking at your family photos, seriously don't worry.

no big deal if they want to check a copy of their software is genuine.

as for Chinese going to linux just because its free and not because they actually like it says a lot about them.

[lancest]

Alot of People and companies in China got used to not paying for software. Some even believe Windows, MS Office & Photoshop etc are actually free. And those that know-often don't update their systems. Viruses are rampant on old XP systems. China is inching toward free software. Strong sales of netbooks and notebooks (with no OS) is an indicator. This story was interesting but on another level not surprising. Now more in China are aware that Microsoft and proprietary software is not their friend. MS really hurts innovation because the closed software eco-system has little IP protection. The time for Open Source is now.

[Kevbert]

I can remember visiting Beijing a few years ago and in one shop Windows Office was priced at $600. In the shop next door you could get it for a tenth the price. In this other 'shop' the was loads of rooms and you had to shut the door behind you so that the local police didn't see what was going on. I'd imagine that now that this 'shop' has been shut down. Linux seems the way to go in many of these 'up and coming countries' as many people can't afford the western prices for software.

[Dragonbite]

Poor MS is getting hit hard lately.

I feel sorry for them.

I wonder when SB will retire?

Y'know, I do feel bad for Microsoft. It isn't fun to watch anything that has done so much and grown so big to slowly crumble.

Will SB retire.. or will he be ousted when Microsoft falls far enough?

Oh well, good news for Linux!

[ELD]

Well if it actually happens then that is pretty cool news.

I just know windows will be staying strong for years to come yet.

[handy]

Y'know, I do feel bad for Microsoft. It isn't fun to watch anything that has done so much and grown so big to slowly crumble.

To be honest I was tongue in cheek. :-)



Will SB retire.. or will he be ousted when Microsoft falls far enough?

I wouldn't think he needs any more money, but power is addictive. & some people can't stand to feel like they have lost.



Oh well, good news for Linux!

Yes, between Russia, China & surely India as well I think that the Linux percentage of users is going to take off over the next five years. It will be interesting to observe how it goes anyway.

[MasterNetra]

Y'know, I do feel bad for Microsoft. It isn't fun to watch anything that has done so much and grown so big to slowly crumble.


I'm sure the romans thought the very same thing.

[Dragonbite]

I wouldn't think he needs any more money, but power is addictive. & some people can't stand to feel like they have lost.

At this point, it isn't about the money anymore. Doesn't mean it's all kumbaya and touchy-feely. I think you hit the nail on the head about feeling like they have lost.

Bill Gates leaving must not have been an easy thing because after nurturing it and directing it for so many years then to let it go and HOPE whoever gets it next will keep it (and the dream) alive canNOT be easy.

Steve Jobs is going to die running Apple. He can't walk away, there's too much ego and borg-implant-symbiotic relationship going on there.

Linus looks realistic enough to walk away when the time comes.

[DrMega]

this is great for Linux, just imagine the number of developers that this could bring to Linux.

If my Chinese freind and his family are anything to go by, they are far less lazy, more creative and more industrious than us Brits (and possibly other westerners), so with their numbers and their creativity, we should see some really promising output.

[handy]

@Dragonbite: I don't know whether you have seen this:

http://www.linux.com/feature/150549

Another move by India in the right direction too.

[MasterNetra]

If my Chinese freind and his family are anything to go by, they are far less lazy, more creative and more industrious than us Brits (and possibly other westerners), so with their numbers and their creativity, we should see some really promising output.

If indeed true then the chinese should be able to provide a major contribution to linux, prehaps even to ubuntu!

[Ub1476]

A Chinese Linux OS.. I wonder what it will be like. Will they try to make it look like Windows, use Gnome or KDE? Hope this will make a breakthrough of software developing for Linux.

[phoenix_snake]

A Chinese Linux OS.. I wonder what it will be like. Will they try to make it look like Windows, use Gnome or KDE? Hope this will make a breakthrough of software developing for Linux.
I am not sure about this but are there many Chinese in the software industry?

[Dragonbite]

@Dragonbite: I don't know whether you have seen this:

http://www.linux.com/feature/150549

Another move by India in the right direction too.

I guess this can help explain why IBM has provided Symphony (beta) for Ubuntu.

It's based off of OpenOffice.org but was licensed differently (don't know if they've changed it back or not).

They may be trying to see about selling a Linux (cross platform) office suite before Microsoft can smell the coffee and try or think of trying to offer Office cross-platform.

[MasterNetra]

Well any company with intelligence would see Linux as another branch of oppotunity and would start creating cross platforming products that include linux ports. Especially with Linux continuing to rise in popularity.

[tgalati4]

MS had been threatening to turn on the "Black Screen of Death" for a long time. If they were clever, they would have designed a "Red Screen of Death" for China and Russia. That would get their attention.

[DrMega]

I am not sure about this but are there many Chinese in the software industry?

I know that many Chinese folks come to Britain to study science and technology subjects, and China is undergoing a bit of a technical revolution lately from what I gather, so I guess if there aren't many now (and I don't know either way) then I guess there soon will be.

[Kevbert]

I read somewhere that in Brazil, they're going over to Linux too.

[LaRoza]

Simple, pay for the software. I cannot understand why it is such a problem for them to restrict usage of pirtated copies of an operating system, it's their product and if I designed some software to sell I wouldn't be very happy if someone pirated it.


I think you are missing a small detail. Microsoft allowed it to happen for so many years for the sole reason they were not a viable buying market. They let them get hooked and rely on Windows for the future.

The point is the Microsoft knew it was being done, and allowed it for their own benefit.

Why don't they buy it? Because it is priced beyond their ability. Microsoft knows this, but their bottom line is about money. They wouldn't be paying any way, and the more that get hooked, the better.


A Chinese Linux OS.. I wonder what it will be like. Will they try to make it look like Windows, use Gnome or KDE? Hope this will make a breakthrough of software developing for Linux.

Like this: http://www.redflag-linux.com/eindex.html

[Slug71]

This may just be a new Dawn for Linux. Time to go get your Linux Certified Professional course done!:lolflag:

[chucky chuckaluck]

Didnt China announce to go linux with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux some years ago, starting with government agencies?

it seems like we've been hearing this for years, now.

[KiwiNZ]

This is all back to front . It is NOT Microsoft at fault here , its the parasite pirates.
No pirates no need to go to the cost of developing measure to stop them . Those costs are paid by honest purchasers.

The dammed pirates are putting all of IT at risk including Opensource.

If Microsoft nukes the pirated copies I applaud them .

[LaRoza]

This is all back to front . It is NOT Microsoft at fault here , its the parasite pirates.
No pirates no need to go to the cost of developing measure to stop them . Those costs are paid by honest purchasers.

The dammed pirates are putting all of IT at risk including Opensource.

If Microsoft nukes the pirated copies I applaud them .

http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/07/we-love-microsoft-software-piracy-in.html

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/10/21/china-microsoft-vs-netizens/

I wouldn't call them parasite pirates. I would call them misinformed. If they knew about Linux and it was as available, they'd use it. However, Microsoft allows this piracy to avoid that, leading to a nation hooked on Windows.

The price of Windows is too high in China. Microsoft knows this. Microsoft knows they won't get a lot of money with it, at the moment.

[phoenix_snake]

yeah I agree, pirates suck, microsoft then tries to cover costs by charging genuine customers higher :mad:

also another problem is their monopolistic pricing strategy, 5 versions of Windows, that was the dumbest idea ever.

I will give an example, lets say there are 2 people, one of them can only afford and is only willing to give $100 for an OS, the other one is richer so is willing or capable of giving lets say $250.

Microsoft is taking advantage of this thing since it doesn't really cost them more to create 5 versions, by dividing up in to 5 versions they can sell for less features people who can't pay more and those that are capable of paying more will pay more and this will generate more revenue.

imagine this 10 copies of windows are sold, each for $100 making a total of $1000

no imagine monopolistic pricing going on and suppose there are 2 version of windows, one for $100 and the other for $200 and 10 people buy it. so lets say 6 people the $100 one making it $600 and 4 buy the $200 making it $800 and generating a total revenue of $1400.

though this does earn more money, it is unfair to customers.

[KiwiNZ]

Too high in China ????

They have the cheapest prices

Also China is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet , they can afford it



http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/07/we-love-microsoft-software-piracy-in.html

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/10/21/china-microsoft-vs-netizens/

I wouldn't call them parasite pirates. I would call them misinformed. If they knew about Linux and it was as available, they'd use it. However, Microsoft allows this piracy to avoid that, leading to a nation hooked on Windows.

The price of Windows is too high in China. Microsoft knows this. Microsoft knows they won't get a lot of money with it, at the moment.

[KiwiNZ]

The pirates know about Linux , they also know about paid online music , they dont use it because they want everything for nothing .

I also believe that if they used open source they would give nothing back , not time nor money

[LaRoza]

Too high in China ????

They have the cheapest prices

Also China is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet , they can afford it
From article:


In China, a genuine Windows software costs over 1000 RMB, about the monthly GDP per person.

[LaRoza]

The pirates know about Linux , they also know about paid online music , they dont use it because they want everything for nothing .

I also believe that if they used open source they would give nothing back , not time nor money

Wait...

Are you referring to the people doing the pirating directly, or the users?

[KiwiNZ]

I agree Microsoft needs to review its pricing structure , I doubt though if there is much room for movement given the cost of development

[KiwiNZ]

Both


Wait...

Are you referring to the people doing the pirating directly, or the users?

[KiwiNZ]

From article:


http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/08/03/Microsoft-cuts-Vista-price-in-China_1.html

899yuan = $nz224 , Home basic = about $US65

[LaRoza]

Both

74.28% then...

Windows pirated is easily obtained. Not everyone has the ability to download and burn Linux. As mentioned in the article, the cost of Windows is the month's wages for many people, but can be pirated for a much lower amount anywhere.

Not everyone has the knowledge or the ability to get Linux.

[KiwiNZ]

74.28% then...

Windows pirated is easily obtained. Not everyone has the ability to download and burn Linux. As mentioned in the article, the cost of Windows is the month's wages for many people, but can be pirated for a much lower amount anywhere.

Not everyone has the knowledge or the ability to get Linux.

I have neither the financial resources to purchase or the knowledge to build a Bugatti Veyron that does not give me the right to take one.

[LaRoza]

I have neither the financial resources to purchase or the knowledge to build a Bugatti Veyron that does not give me the right to take one.

What is that?

China is ripe for Linux, as noted, but because of the Microsoft allowing prirating for so long, they are stuck in the Windows mindset (at least, partially).

[NE Key]

Also China is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet , they can afford it


Maybe, until you divide the wealth by 1 billion. Then it works out as about a bowl of rice each.


When I lived in Spain I took my computer to be repaired and they installed the new version of windows and all the office bits automatically for no charge.

When I moved to the UK it was quite a shock to have to PAY for windows, I thought it all came free as part of the "tax" on a new computer.

So I moved to linux, and found it could do all I wanted it to do.

I get the impression that it is only in a few countries that the ordinary user has a properly paid for and licensed windows set.

[KiwiNZ]

What is that?

China is ripe for Linux, as noted, but because of the Microsoft allowing prirating for so long, they are stuck in the Windows mindset (at least, partially).


OK now that is sad , you dont know what a Bugatti Veyron is ?
LaRoza we need to get you out more :)

or maybe I should have used Gucci handbag or Chanel #5 :) ):P

[LaRoza]

LaRoza we need to get you out more :)


Joanna, fire.

[smoker]

it seems to me that the Chinese are suspicious enough of microsoft, and this latest move is going to improve things no end, not!
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200706/25/text20070625_387364.html

On June 5th (2007), China.com published an article titled "Attention: Microsoft Stealing Chinese state secrets,": which immediately became a hot topic for discussion. Is Microsoft's operating system, reported by Norton through the "back door":, built with a secret surveillance program on China by the United States government? Here, I will call it the "Backdoor": Incident. I think Microsoft should give us an explanation.

[TheSlipstream]

I have neither the financial resources to purchase or the knowledge to build a Bugatti Veyron that does not give me the right to take one.

Worst analogy ever. Windows is not a mega expensive car, and is much more useful. How does Windows piracy hurt Microsoft, exactly? None of the Chinese pirates can afford retail Windows... when they pirate it, does it directly affect the monolithic Microsoft, or does it simply mean another computer user where before they never would have used one? How can people feed their families if they must give away a months pay just to use an operating system.

Microsoft is a very greedy corporation, and doesn't care that people can't afford to run Windows, nor do they care that their product is not affordable to citizens of the developing world.

[KiwiNZ]

On the contrary actually . they care alot. When I met Mr Balmer and Mr Gates in the US I noticed they didnt have horns on their heads and they were nice normal folks .

They did however have a huge passion for their product and a huge passion for people .That is not a bad thing , so does Mr Shuttleworth.



Worst analogy ever. Windows is not a mega expensive car, and is much more useful. How does Windows piracy hurt Microsoft, exactly? None of the Chinese pirates can afford retail Windows... when they pirate it, does it directly affect the monolithic Microsoft, or does it simply mean another computer user where before they never would have used one? How can people feed their families if they must give away a months pay just to use an operating system.

Microsoft is a very greedy corporation, and doesn't care that people can't afford to run Windows, nor do they care that their product is not affordable to citizens of the developing world.

[LaRoza]

On the contrary actually . they care alot. When I met Mr Balmer and Mr Gates in the US I noticed they didnt have horns on their heads and they were nice normal folks .

Um... Of course they are normal. Why would they say to your face "Hi. I am only in this for money and will do anything to get rid of competition, and will moan when I can't buy government protection. I also will do anything to restrict rights, even if it means shoddy software".



They did however have a huge passion for their product and a huge passion for people .That is not a bad thing , so does Mr Shuttleworth.
He gave how many millions of dollars to Ubuntu while getting no profit?

[ww711]

Interesting choice of name for a Linux distro.

http://www.hiweed.com/

[Sub101]

How does Windows piracy hurt Microsoft, exactly?

I do agree that in terms of money Microsoft will not be affected by piracy of Windows, however, that does not mean we should expect them to allow it to happen.

Why should I pay for Windows if I see Microsoft allowing individuals to take the software for free? I see incidents similar to this all the time. Why should I obey the law when so many don't. If they are not going to be punished why should the law abiding citizens lose out.

I do not think this is the best method to deal with the piracy. I do not know of any other method Microsoft can take though, so I completely understand their need to do so.

In all honesty, from the viewpoint of encouraging Open-Source software, Microsoft stopping the pirates will hopefully push users to use Linux. Sure they may not give back to the community, but they just might.

[KiwiNZ]

Um... Of course they are normal. Why would they say to your face "Hi. I am only in this for money and will do anything to get rid of competition, ....

If that were true they would not have invested $160 million in Apple when it was close to collapse.

[LaRoza]

If that were true they would not have invested $160 million in Apple when it was close to collapse.

I think they would have other reasons for doing that...

Possibly, to prevent their only "competitor" from disappearing, and to make money off them.

Also, I have the Microsoft mission and vision statement on my side, the EU, even US courts, and Microsoft's own statements and documents.

[cmay]

i was one of the first to get the virus update directly from microsoft when it happen here in Denmark. it was a virus that media displays as supposedly was planted by some genius cracker that knew all about the internals of the micros softs internal updating protocols while the virus company that announced the finding of it directly implied that was not so likely the case it could be someone from the outside. in fact once before microsoft has been known to plant a worm in office that should only attack pirated versions of office which due to a programming error attacked legit versions as well.. my windows xp was reinstalled as much as six times before the story was out n public and i did not hear about before six month after i switched to linux. so this comes as no surprise to me if thats the case as far this article is concerned. i think that piracy is very bad thing but it does not give microsoft the right to do these things they do to people with planting stuff in the updates to check on people and as far as piracy goes microsoft has already made a fortune on copying ohter operative systems.
maybe i am more bitter at microsoft than others are but consider that when i called them to ask about this story i just happen to find in the libray papers they was trying to get me to upgrade to vista instead since windows xp was really a old product.
i cant tell all of you that have been angry with them that it passes after a while. a year after all windows are closed down gone and out the window the anger goes away since one forgets the anger that comes from having paid for something and the product did not turn out to be as good as other things. i also almost never read treads about windows but this one i found enlighting. it will mean that a lot of linux users are to be at least counted. that means more chances of games and hardware support for me and me and others using linux. so i consider it good news even that it deals with real bad issues.

[phoenix_snake]

it seems to me that the Chinese are suspicious enough of microsoft, and this latest move is going to improve things no end, not!
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200706/25/text20070625_387364.html

I remember reading something about Windows allowing the NSA to spy on people as well, I think these articles are all made up crap.

Do people really think that if lets say the USA government wants to spy on the Chinese, they won't make sure to hide it well enough for no one to find it?

[Torgas Prim]

The only problem I see is if the Chinese move to Linux, then who are they going to vent their virus and trojan tirad at...you got it!
Us the Linux community. Expect more attacks, hijacks, and trojans heading our way :(

[phoenix_snake]

The only problem I see is if the Chinese move to Linux, then who are they going to vent their virus and trojan tirad at...you got it!
Us the Linux community. Expect more attacks, hijacks, and trojans heading our way :(
see I don't think linux will ever be infected with viruses cause of user permissions mainly and even Vista has that now so the problem of viruses is over on Windows to, since its the users fault for allowing it.

no need to worry :)

[jprophet420]

Almost all good new, the downside:

millions of new hackers that know linux exploits.

[LaRoza]

Almost all good new, the downside:

millions of new hackers that know linux exploits.

It doesn't work that way ;)

Such discussions are recurring, see the recurring discussions on that logical fallacy. The only exploit that could cause widespread problems is social engineering.

[Chame_Wizard]

1 more step to for Linux/BSd to gain acknowledge .:lolflag:

[handy]

yeah I agree, pirates suck, microsoft then tries to cover costs by charging genuine customers higher :mad:

I tend to think that MS has done a great deal more than cover costs. It made Bill the richest man in the world for some time.

[handy]

Too high in China ????

They have the cheapest prices

Also China is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet , they can afford it

I don't think that the wealth is fairly distributed throughout the population, there are still a huge number of people living in poverty in China, & many who work in atrocious conditions, being dangerous to their health in a variety of ways.

[FranMichaels]

I think this is fantastic. I've been waiting a long time for measures like these to show up.

It is obvious between WGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage#Criticisms) and Vista's Content Protection (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html), that MS can monitor things and modify a system without the users consent or knowledge.

That aside, people complaining about Linux when they didn't purchase their copy of Microsoft Windows in the first place... I feel the same way about people who didn't purchase Adobe Photoshop, but complain about the GIMP.

I just think it's well deserved, and that highlights to whom the computer really belongs to. I can't wait until the next version of Windows. I hope it offers ad supported software and pay per use of MS Office as MS has already trialed in several countries.

Rock on! :guitar:

[lancest]

What concerns me is that Microsoft knowingly induces honest people in China and around the world to pirate (steal) software. You've seen the Bill Gates quote?

People around the world who would never otherwise steal anything- do something out of character. Stealing software unknowingly.

Microsoft does this in the name of profit with no concern at all. Suckering developing countries into a US intellectual property system that has had no historical precedence in the world. Hindering innovation in order to control markets. Using draconian methods to keep control.

A digital tidal wave of freedom is about to hit these tired monopolists.

[handy]

What concerns me is that Microsoft knowingly induces honest people in China and around the world to pirate (steal) software. You've seen the Bill Gates quote?

People around the world who would never otherwise steal anything- do something out of character. Stealing software unknowingly.

Microsoft does this in the name of profit with no concern at all. Suckering developing countries into a US intellectual property system that has had no historical precedence in the world. Hindering innovation in order to control markets. Using draconian methods to keep control.

A digital tidal wave of freedom is about to hit these tired monopolists.

It reminds me of the cigarette companies that give away cigarettes to children in developing South East Asian countries, promoting addiction for the companies future profit.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Question.

Does private or personal ownership of property (in this case Intellectual Property) mean anything in a communist country? Doesn't the collective own property, and individuals are allowed by the collective to use it?

I'm not sure I would call them Pirates if my understanding of their system is correct. I'm not sure that the cost of thee product being to high for them to afford has anything to do with it.

[LaRoza]

Question.

Does private or personal ownership of property (in this case Intellectual Property) mean anything in a communist country? Doesn't the collective own property, and individuals are allowed by the collective to use it?

I'm not sure I would call them Pirates if my understanding of their system is correct.

Does it mean anything? Yes.

The collective is poor, the state owns the property, and distributes it.

Their system has nothing to do with it however, as Microsoft is not part of their system.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Their system has nothing to do with it however, as Microsoft is not part of their system.

However, do the people in the country see it as theft because of the way their their economy works? Is it a matter of educating them about how capitalism works? Does their government even prosecute them for pirating?

[LaRoza]

However, do the people in they country see it as theft because of they way their their economy works? Is it a matter of educating them about how capitalism works? Does their government even prosecute them for pirating?

The people aren't all communists like that, and China is not pure communist at all. It is a complex nation, and diverse.

I suppose there are people who think that, but to the average person I think they just see it as cheaper and what is available. I've seen markets (pictures of them) full of copied movies, music and software. I doubt they worry about the DMCA ;)

I don't know what the government does. Since it is sold openly, apparently not. But considering what their government will prosecute them for, that is hardly comforting.

[Frak]

Poor MS is getting hit hard lately.

I feel sorry for them.

I wonder when SB will retire?
Hopefully next Tuesday... I already made the cake...

@LaRoza
They prosecute people, though, only if they feel like prosecuting.

[C.S.Cameron]

The computer operating system has become too esential for any one person or corporation to control.
Without easily pirated Windows, there would be many more people in this world suffering, starving and dying.
Piratable Windows has probably done more to improve the conditions on earth more than anything else.
Not to fear, most versions of Windows I've seen for sale in Asia are WGA proof .
MS should have been regulated years ago (at a fair price), and Windows made open source.
With the speed Linux is developing, I don't think MS has much time left anyway.

[d_skillz]

This is definitely gonna open the market to users who just want to try a new OS. Vista is universally broken. XP is gonna be unsupported soon and now activation issues. Linux will definitely make some progress marching unto those chinese desktops.

[Frak]

The computer operating system has become too esential for any one person or corporation to control.
Without easily pirated Windows, there would be many more people in this world suffering, starving and dying.
Piratable Windows has probably done more to improve the conditions on earth more than anything else.
Not to fear, most versions of Windows I've seen for sale in Asia are WGA proof .
MS should have been nationalized years ago (at a fair price), and Windows made open source.
With the speed Linux is developing, I don't think MS has much time left anyway.
The United States cannot nationalize without approval from congress. With the profits brought in my Microsoft, and without fair-act of seizure, it couldn't be seized.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I am just curious how the Chinese think. I had a home computer before Microsoft existed. It took decades to educate people in Europe and America about Intellectual Property and Piracy.

[Frak]

I am just curious how the Chinese think. I had a home computer before Microsoft existed. It took decades to educate people in Europe and America about Intellectual Property and Piracy.
You should watch TV a bit more. Here (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/28/fzgps.01.html) is a transcript of the interview on CNN (about two weeks ago) with Wen Jiabao, Prime Minister of China. The way China's economy works, is, the invisible hand of Adam Smith's vision with the visible hand of China's attempt at moral balance in corporate thinking.
The U.S. is mostly based on the idea that business only responsibility is to increase profits (Adam Smith's theory), while China's is both increase profits, but keep the communities interests in mind.

[oldsoundguy]

add to the "official" list of countries moving to universal open source:
Brazil
Columbia
Venezuela

"UNofficial" .. ALL of the Scandinavian countries

India
China
Russia

Already multiply mentioned here.

What with Balmer shooting himself in the foot with the remark that Windows 7 will be a "vast improvement" over Vista and really admitting that VISTA is the POS that many have said it is, that too, hurts their bottom line.

Eventually Windows will be confined to running your home appliances (X-10) and be a game platform along with their game box. But that will be many years down the road at the current rate of change (and the reluctance of the US user to admit that there just might be something better out there .. because it is one of them damn foreign systems!)

And Wii is going to give them a run on the box deal!! What with universal browser integration for on line gaming already in place and "deals" with the giants such as ComCast already launched and in operation.

[barbedsaber]

To sum up - It was a dumb move on MS part!

BREAKING NEWS
Microsoft screw up big time ... ... again.

[Dragonbite]

I think this is fantastic. I've been waiting a long time for measures like these to show up.

It is obvious between WGA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage#Criticisms) and Vista's Content Protection (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html), that MS can monitor things and modify a system without the users consent or knowledge.

Is that anything like Apple's iPhone "kill switch"? Or is it forgiven because Apple hasn't been branded the "devil" yet (just wait until Microsoft falls.. people don't like change so they'll find another target and Apple is just too juicy).

Android has one as well if I am reading right.

[LaRoza]

@LaRoza
They prosecute people, though, only if they feel like prosecuting.

Figures...

That does nothing to prevent or deter crime. Punishment must be swift, certain and severe to work.


Is that anything like Apple's iPhone "kill switch"? Or is it forgiven because Apple hasn't been branded the "devil" yet (just wait until Microsoft falls.. people don't like change so they'll find another target and Apple is just too juicy).

Android has one as well if I am reading right.

IBM was the big Evil before Microsoft. Apple is too small, and isn't a monopoly in anything yet. I think Apple will change slowly (no DRM, etc)

[DrMega]

This is all back to front . It is NOT Microsoft at fault here , its the parasite pirates.
No pirates no need to go to the cost of developing measure to stop them . Those costs are paid by honest purchasers.

Yes and no. MS is one of (if not the) richest companies in the world. They got that way for a reason. Their marketing strategy resulted in complete market domination for years. They deliberately turned a blind eye to pirates until they achieved market domination, then gradually started to clamp down, first on those that could afford it, and then those that can't.


The dammed pirates are putting all of IT at risk including Opensource.

Yes, for the reason I've just said. MS know this too.


If Microsoft nukes the pirated copies I applaud them .

Me too. Piracy is always wrong, but that's not the main reason I would like to see MS do this. I am glad MS are doing this as it will level the playing field and allow alternative products a chance to get a better foothold.


yeah I agree, pirates suck, microsoft then tries to cover costs by charging genuine customers higher :mad:

Do you think they will lower their prices once they've eradicated all the pirate copies? I don't.


Too high in China ????

They have the cheapest prices

Also China is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet , they can afford it

What did that piece of info come from? From my research it looks like a Chinese person is considered wealthy if they earn as much as the equivalent of 500 USD or about 300 GBP per month. That's less than a week's wages for me, and I'm not well paid in British terms.

[ukripper]

Worst analogy ever. Windows is not a mega expensive car, and is much more useful. How does Windows piracy hurt Microsoft, exactly? None of the Chinese pirates can afford retail Windows... when they pirate it, does it directly affect the monolithic Microsoft, or does it simply mean another computer user where before they never would have used one? How can people feed their families if they must give away a months pay just to use an operating system.

Microsoft is a very greedy corporation, and doesn't care that people can't afford to run Windows, nor do they care that their product is not affordable to citizens of the developing world.

you said it all mate!

[smoker]

Do you think they will lower their prices once they've eradicated all the pirate copies? I don't.

that will never happen, anti-piracy drm is a never ending spiral of measure and counter-measure, whatever ms introduce to deter piracy will be overcome shortly after. meanwhile, some genuine users get more and more frustrated every time wga gets it wrong, or they have to waste time phoning ms for activation if refused after a reinstall. there is a balance, and sooner or later, some genuine users will look for something else that's less hassle. if ms, instead of spending a fortune developing these anti-piracy measures, cut the price of windows, they would probably increase their profits. not all of those using a pirate copy of windows like doing so, sometimes it is the only way for them to get a copy. imo, if the price differential between a pirate copy and a genuine copy was narrowed to a realistic margin, then most people would buy the genuine article!

[DrMega]

that will never happen, anti-piracy drm is a never ending spiral of measure and counter-measure, whatever ms introduce to deter piracy will be overcome shortly after. meanwhile, some genuine users get more and more frustrated every time wga gets it wrong, or they have to waste time phoning ms for activation if refused after a reinstall. there is a balance, and sooner or later, some genuine users will look for something else that's less hassle. if ms, instead of spending a fortune developing these anti-piracy measures, cut the price of windows, they would probably increase their profits. not all of those using a pirate copy of windows like doing so, sometimes it is the only way for them to get a copy. imo, if the price differential between a pirate copy and a genuine copy was narrowed to a realistic margin, then most people would buy the genuine article!

I agree. When I refered to MS having eradicated all pirate copies, I meant hypothetically. If they could press a magic button and kill all pirate copies overnight, while leaving ligetimate copies alone, they wouldn't then go on to reduce the price or refund some of the cost to the owners of legal copies.

[smoker]

I agree. When I refered to MS having eradicated all pirate copies, I meant hypothetically. If they could press a magic button and kill all pirate copies overnight, while leaving ligetimate copies alone, they wouldn't then go on to reduce the price or refund some of the cost to the owners of legal copies.

i think we both agree:)

i also think, that hypothetically, if ms forever halted piracy on windows, that instead of cutting the price, they would be more likely to raise it, knowing that the only way from henceforth to get a copy would be to buy a copy, though maybe i am overestimating corporation greed here!

[eragon100]

i think we both agree:)

i also think, that hypothetically, if ms forever halted piracy on windows, that instead of cutting the price, they would be more likely to raise it, knowing that the only way from henceforth to get a copy would be to buy a copy, though maybe i am overestimating corporation greed here!

They wouldn't do that because they know ubuntu and other easy general desktop linux distros are free. If they would ask 700€ for windows, linux usage would increase tremendulously. People don't like to spend 700€ on an OS, and people that don't have the money will hopefully be forced to switch to linux :)

[mikewhatever]

Microsoft blacks out screens - China goes to linux

"China will move towards Linux fully in the future", said Mr Cao.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3240457/Microsoft-blacks-out-Chinese-computers.html

Do you guys realize this is a lie? Nobody is going to Linux, Mr Cao, an official from a Chinese software company had just spoken his mind wishfully, that's all. Why should the OP make a slogan out of it, as if Mao himself had proclaimed a move to Linux, is not clear. I suspect poor reading comprehension and too much zeal, however, what about the rest?

Here we have a ten page thread, most posters naively believing that 'China goes to linux'. Have any of you read the article? This is so ridiculous, that I hope you are all 12 year olds, because if not, God have mercy on Linux.

[DrMega]

EDIT: Removed response, it wasn't worthwhile.

[ukripper]

This is so ridiculous, that I hope you are all 12 year olds, because if not, God have mercy on Linux.

I consider myself 11 so it works for me!:)

[Dragonbite]

Do you guys realize this is a lie? Nobody is going to Linux, Mr Cao, an official from a Chinese software company had just spoken his mind wishfully, that's all. Why should the OP make a slogan out of it, as if Mao himself had proclaimed a move to Linux, is not clear. I suspect poor reading comprehension and too much zeal, however, what about the rest?

Here we have a ten page thread, most posters naively believing that 'China goes to linux'. Have any of you read the article? This is so ridiculous, that I hope you are all 12 year olds, because if not, God have mercy on Linux.

Spoilsport.

[Sporkman]

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20081022/tc_nm/us_china_microsoft_2


Chinese surfers see red over Microsoft black-outs (Reuters)

* Posted on Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:17AM EDT

BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese Internet users have expressed fury at Microsoft's launch of an anti-piracy tool targeting Chinese computer users to ensure they buy genuine software.

The "Windows Genuine Advantage" program, which turns the user's screen black if the installed software fails a validation test, is Microsoft's latest weapon in its war on piracy in China, where the vast majority of 200 million computer users are believed to be using counterfeit software, unwittingly or not.

"Why is Microsoft automatically connected with my computer? The computer is mine!" one angry blogger wrote on popular Chinese web portal Sina.com. "Microsoft has no right to control my hardware without my agreement."

Another blogger railed over the cost of authorized versions.

"If the price of genuine software was lower than the fake one, who would buy the fake one?" he wrote.

A visitor to a Beijing internet cafe said Microsoft was violating people's rights.

"If, when I'm programing, the computer screen goes black, that will probably cause some important information to be lost," he said. "Who will pay me for my loss then?"

Dong Zhengwei, 35, a Beijing lawyer, described Microsoft as the "biggest hacker in China with its intrusion into users' computer systems without their agreement or any judicial authority," the China Daily said.

"Microsoft's measure will cause serious functional damage to users' computers and, according to China's criminal law, the company can stand accused of breaching and hacking into computer systems," he was quoted as saying.

"I respect the right of Microsoft to protect its intellectual property, but it is taking on the wrong target with wrong measures. They should target producers and sellers of fake software, not users."

The software giant defended the program on its website as part of its "commitment to help protect its intellectual property and to help you avoid problems before they happen."

"The purpose ... is to help our customers to determine (if) genuine software is installed on their computers," Microsoft told Reuters.

[Frak]

@the piracy conversation:

I like the idea of piracy, as in, if you charge too much for your software, be sure that that the unit rate will stay nearly constant, but profits won't increase from some of that market. I think of it as the invisible hand of pricing and service (and overall, part of the invisible hand of capitalism, as Adam Smith visioned).

[JT9161]

For any one who hasn't heard of this yet the 'black screen' is really just your desktop background (AKA Wallpaper) going black

[Prefix100]

For any one who hasn't heard of this yet the 'black screen' is really just your desktop background (AKA Wallpaper) going black

Wow, that is nowhere near as bad as it is being hyped up to be.

Microsoft have every right to punish those who don't pay for their product, but admittedly, why anyone would pay for windows is beyond me.

[mikewhatever]

Wow, that is nowhere near as bad as it is being hyped up to be.

Microsoft have every right to punish those who don't pay for their product, ...

I agree. They installed Vista or bought it installed, and now come the consequences. The following part really got me laughing. Isn't that what automatic updates are all about?

One anonymous blogger, from Shanghai, said that it is "illegal to install any program on a PC without the permit of the owner", while an online poll at People's Daily, the state newspaper, showed that 90 per cent of respondents believed Microsoft should slash prices further to combat piracy.

[Frak]

I agree. They installed Vista or bought it installed, and now come the consequences. The following part really got me laughing. Isn't that what automatic updates are all about?
Let me explain, which another subject pertaining to the United States:

The american people are constantly scrutinizing the United States government for slashing taxes for the wealthiest of people. The poor pay more taxes (in percentage) than the elite. What the normal, average, possibly mostly uneducated american might not know is:

It is very simple for someone wealthy to put their money someplace else.

Let's say the US raises taxes, the wealthy doesn't pay their taxes, and the wealthy place their money in, say, the Cayman Islands. The government has all the right to send the IRS after them, but even the IRS has only so much money to them, and to pursue all of the offenders and pay for the court costs, good lawyers (good, because the wealthy could hire a better one), and tracking, it's much useless as the benefit is less than the cost.

Let's apply this to Microsoft:

I don't have much money, and I need Windows (rules out Linux, lets just say Wine is useless for what I need). I can either buy a new copy, and waste money I don't think I should pay, or steal it. Microsoft combats this by trying to block piracy by using activation and constant validity scanning. Now, that does cost Microsoft money. Furthermore, it comes to a disadvantage to Microsoft that nearly all of their attempts are usually bypassed within hours of releasing the anti-piracy tactic. Now, they could pursue the pirates, they have all the right to, but they only have so much money to do it with. With all the pursuing, lawyers, court fees, and the inability to settle for what they really need (I don't have a million dollars, but lets say they want seven of my ten-million-non-existent-dollars), it becomes obvious that they can't achieve perfect use. Microsoft instead sits back and just counts the ones who are smart enough to bypass as "power users" along with their current "users of Windows".

The US government cuts taxes so the rich will pay them, so in turn, it is believed that Microsoft should cut prices so people will buy it.

[gwenn]

The point is that now it should be the time for the governs all over the world to invest in linux! We live in a tech world and the only possibility to maintain or increase our life-standard is on technology.Linux and open source could give the possibility to everybody to have an internet connection...and here we can talk a lot about saving the forests or living standard or even shopping at best prices.As the world will become more tech,everybody must be enable to have an email,or use an Open Office package,not talking about education or wikipedia...And all of these MUST be free,this is the only way of the world-way progress...
btw my english is in working progress :)

[mikewhatever]

Let me explain, which another subject pertaining to the United States:...

Not quite sure you've quoted the right post, or, perhaps, I just don't see how your explanations are relevant.


Microsoft instead sits back and just counts the ones who are smart enough to bypass as "power users" along with their current "users of Windows".

The way it has been working so far is not a secret. Most of those so called power users get so addicted to MS software they can't use anything else, and buy a legit copy in the end. It's quite probable MS counts them, after all, a lot of them are potential customers.

[LaRoza]

Wow, that is nowhere near as bad as it is being hyped up to be.

Microsoft have every right to punish those who don't pay for their product, but admittedly, why anyone would pay for windows is beyond me.

No, I think Microsoft has the right to push for legal action, not risk turning their software into time bombs.

[smoker]

Microsoft have every right to punish those who don't pay for their product, but admittedly, why anyone would pay for windows is beyond me.

man, what a punishment! there'll now be billions of pirates queuing round the block at the local windows stores buying up every legal copy... i think not!

even microsoft aren't that stupid to think blanking someone's desktop out for a couple of hours a day is going to have them skip next months rent, and pay them instead for a legal copy of windows.

all ms can hope to achieve is maybe that the Chinese government will start to get a bit forceful with business and education and maybe they'll get some revenue from legit sales that way. but ms are playing a dangerous game here. their tactics could quite easily tip the Chinese over the edge against them, and instead of that bit of revenue, they may get nothing at all.

in a way i wish ms would just 'pull the switch' and 100% disable all pirate copies of windows forever more. then linux would really prosper, for ms still wouldn't get the revenue from the billions of users they'd now switched off.

[phrostbyte]

Think China will actually put it's money where it's mouth is and invest in Linux and Linux development?

[toupeiro]

I think its funny that anyone actually feels sorry for big business. Do you think Microsoft felt sorry when they displaced hundreds if not thousands of American IT support jobs by outsourcing them to foreign countries, abusing H1B, L-1 and H2B visas? Do you think Microsoft was feeling sorry for Netscape when they developed ActiveX, or for those that remember, MS-Virtual Machine in a futile attempt to displace Java? I have no room for compassion for a company that is the leader of hostile takeovers and strong-arming their competition. They've just finally met competition to their whole business model, and their model is simply not strong enough to extinguish the FOSS model. To spin off an applicable quote from Star Wars, The tighter they grip, the more customers will slip through their fingers. :)

Do I feel sorry for them? Absolutely not. Tit for tat...

[mikewhatever]

I think its funny that anyone actually feels sorry for big business. Do you think Microsoft felt sorry when they displaced hundreds if not thousands of American IT support jobs? Do you think Microsoft was feeling sorry for Netscape when they developed ActiveX, or for those that remember, MS-Virtual Machine in a futile attempt to displace Java? I have no room for compassion for a company that is the leader of hostile takeovers and strong-arming their competition. They've just finally met competition to their whole business model, and their model is simply not strong enough to extinguish the FOSS model. To spin off an applicable quote from Star Wars, The tighter they grip, the more customers will slip through their fingers. :)

Do I feel sorry for them? Absolutely not. Tit for tat...

Ever head of sarcasm? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

[phrostbyte]

I agree. When I refered to MS having eradicated all pirate copies, I meant hypothetically. If they could press a magic button and kill all pirate copies overnight, while leaving ligetimate copies alone, they wouldn't then go on to reduce the price or refund some of the cost to the owners of legal copies.

Of course they wouldn't. The cost of Windows or really any product doesn't not often reflect the cost of production, it simply reflects the ideal prices for the company to maximize it's revenue. In fact, because of high piracy in China, Microsoft lowered all it's prices in the country. So it has an opposite effect!

Anyway Microsoft's strong piracy enforcement is a "good thing" for Linux. There will always be a percentage of people who will look for alternatives instead of buying a legit copy.

[toupeiro]

Ever head of sarcasm? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Ever heard of hypersensitivity? Did I quote you? Did I single you out? Do you think just because you were being sarcastic, that it nullifies the chance that there are people besides you who aren't being sarcastic? Do you think because you were being sarcastic that I somehow shouldn't have said what I said? Is this your world, we're just living in it? oohh.. Was that sarcasm? ;)

[Frak]

Not quite sure you've quoted the right post, or, perhaps, I just don't see how your explanations are relevant.

See what you want to. You're the only one I know that cannot connect A and B

You must treat the consumer to what she or he would sacrifice for a benefit. If you run out somebody's wealth for something that cost 1/16 to make, you run the risk of theft or alternatives. Theft comes from impulse to gain power and alternatives come from Adam Smith's theory of the "invisible hand of capitalism".

[mikewhatever]

Ever heard of hypersensitivity? Did I quote you? Did I single you out? Do you think just because you were being sarcastic, that it nullifies the chance that there are people besides you who aren't being sarcastic? Do you think because you were being sarcastic that I somehow shouldn't have said what I said? Is this your world, we're just living in it? oohh.. Was that sarcasm? ;)

:lolflag:
Yes, hypersensitivity, I think it has just manifested itself (see above quote).


See what you want to. You're the only one I know that cannot connect A and B

Correction sir, you don't know me.:tongue:

[lancest]

In the USA selling pirated software on the street is a major crime. In many other countries it is not. Comes down to enforcement. WTO is supposed to tighten this up.

[toupeiro]

:lolflag:
Yes, hypersensitivity, I think it has just manifested itself (see above quote).


yeah... I'm a bit old for "I know you are but what am I!?" Have fun with that though.




Think China will actually put it's money where it's mouth is and invest in Linux and Linux development?


I think they will... I really think that this is just the start of what will be a massive eastern influence in the development and usage of FOSS. I think a lot of good can come of this, not just for the sake of Linux, but for computer users as well.

With regard to Russia, How awesome is that? Imagine if we could do something so forward thinking here in the US? Imagine if we could get an extra few million dollars per year for our schools, without having to raise taxes, to fund more school programs and afford better teachers in our public school systems? I really don't think people make these connections with benefits like this which FOSS could help enable.

[smoker]

Think China will actually put it's money where it's mouth is and invest in Linux and Linux development?

they seem to be: http://www.linux.com/feature/144852

Since the Chinese government began supporting domestic open source communities in 2005, hundreds of thousands of young people in the world's most populous country have become a part of the open source world.

With the help of the government-supported Leadership of Open Source University Promotion Alliance (LUPA), Zhejiang Technology Institute of Economy (ZJTIE) founded its Linux Training & Examination Center in 2006. The center started out offering a simple 48-hour course; upon completion, students received a Linux operator certificate or a Linux network administrator certificate or both. According to ZJTIE, 1,500 students in the last two years have passed the examination. However, those students who wanted to learn more had to learn by themselves.
Now, however, LUPA offers nine Linux certificates, including certificates for software engineers, C programming language engineers, and LAMP system engineers. In response to a requirement from China's Ministry of Education, LUPA published 11 new Linux textbooks in July. The Ministry hopes that these textbooks will help Chinese students learn more advanced Linux technologies.

[Swermed]

是吗？不过我一直用“电脑公司”的WinXP SP2版本，至今也没出现“期待”的黑屏
Yes? However I have used “the computer company” WinXP the SP2 edition, has not presented “anticipates” black screen until now

[lancest]

No black screen huh? :) At least you got Ubuntu if it does.

[Swermed]

Linux is good, there is no "piracy":popcorn:

[LaRoza]

Linux is good, there is no "piracy"

Actually, one could violate the GPL. "Piracy" is a bad term for the act. When people do it to Microsoft, they are evil pirates. When Microsoft does it, it is the evil GPL and Linux hippies.

[Swermed]

Actually, one could violate the GPL. "Piracy" is a bad term for the act. When people do it to Microsoft, they are evil pirates. When Microsoft does it, it is the evil GPL and Linux hippies.

The WIN system appears a little expensive in China, although Linux free, but the popular rate is not high, time are many Linux/Unix is only the course which on the computer class uses. Win is the popularity, Linux is a deeper level.


我是这么想的

[seshomaru samma]

是吗？不过我一直用“电脑公司”的WinXP SP2版本，至今也没出现“期待”的黑屏
Yes? However I have used “the computer company” WinXP the SP2 edition, has not presented “anticipates” black screen until now

“电脑公司”=盗版？
some pirated XPs (盗版) have the WGA patch in them already (WGA 验证补丁)

[mips]

I don't understand why people use a language other forum members cannot read?

[Frak]

I don't understand why people use a language other forum members cannot read?
Makes me more 1337 than u.

[pp.]

I don't understand why people use a language other forum members cannot read?

Perhaps they feel that their posts are not worth reading? But then, there's no point in posting, either.

On the gripping hand, there's google if you really want to know what's being said.

[LaRoza]

I don't understand why people use a language other forum members cannot read?

Not everyone is posting for you.

[pp.]

Not everyone is posting for you.

Indeed. Dasch doch glyych wenns kain lääse gha.

[LaRoza]

Perhaps they feel that their posts are not worth reading? But then, there's no point in posting, either.

On the gripping hand, there's google if you really want to know what's being said.

Or, it is meant for others that do understand?

[mikewhatever]

The WIN system appears a little expensive in China, although Linux free, but the popular rate is not high, time are many Linux/Unix is only the course which on the computer class uses. Win is the popularity, Linux is a deeper level.

Are you saying people in China prefer to pirate Windows and rip the consequences, rather then use free alternatives? If it is popular, what is so appealing in Windows for the Chinese?

[LaRoza]

If it is popular, what is so appealing in Windows for the Chinese?

Because it was cheap, and Microsoft allowed it. They got used to it, and got "hooked".

[Swermed]

Are you saying people in China prefer to pirate Windows and rip the consequences, rather then use free alternatives? If it is popular, what is so appealing in Windows for the Chinese?


Like this said perhaps inaccurate, because I am the programmer, I oppose to pirate firmly. But, legal copy WinXP is about 1000 Yuan, is equal in average person a half month-long wage. It is a pity, the majority of people will only use the Windows system, the technical good spot will use DOS (to say accurately will be “CMD”). But Linux/UNIX, apple MAC, some people have not even heard. Said with China's HACKER a few words that “many people, may do any matter in the Windows platform, cannot do any matter in other platforms”


I thought that because the Windows system was in has been too easy to use, it studied conveniently and uses, some people, even if did not understand any computer knowledge, might also in the Win platform nimble use computer


(the above writing is I uses Yahoo! and google translates, possibly will have grammatical error, excuse me)

[zmjjmz]

Like this said perhaps inaccurate, because I am the programmer, I oppose to pirate firmly. But, legal copy WinXP is about 1000 Yuan, is equal in average person a half month-long wage. It is a pity, the majority of people will only use the Windows system, the technical good spot will use DOS (to say accurately will be “CMD”). But Linux/UNIX, apple MAC, some people have not even heard. Said with China's HACKER a few words that “many people, may do any matter in the Windows platform, cannot do any matter in other platforms”


I thought that because the Windows system was in has been too easy to use, it studied conveniently and uses, some people, even if did not understand any computer knowledge, might also in the Win platform nimble use computer


(the above writing is I uses Yahoo! and google translates, possibly will have grammatical error, excuse me)
Well what I suggest doing is pretty much what a lot of people in India have been doing for a while:
Organize a community event or something similar (or set up a booth during an event) to show that Linux exists and is a free and legal alternative to Windows.

Oh, and while your grammar is terrible my grammar would be just as bad if I tried to speak Chinese.

[Swermed]

Well what I suggest doing is pretty much what a lot of people in India have been doing for a while:
Organize a community event or something similar (or set up a booth during an event) to show that Linux exists and is a free and legal alternative to Windows.

Oh, and while your grammar is terrible my grammar would be just as bad if I tried to speak Chinese.


Ha:guitar:, this truly, our grammar ......The language is question ...... is anticipating, Linux popularization:popcorn:. Nobody likes looking at MS the monopoly behavior:KS

[kevdog]

China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!

[phoenix_snake]

China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!
lol :p

[mips]

Not everyone is posting for you.

Lets look at the forum rules which you seem to be ignoring.

http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy


9. Please strive to communicate with other users as effectively as possible:
Please try to write your posts in English unless you are participating in a Loco Forum, where you are permitted to use another language if it is in common use in that Loco Forum and understood by the Loco Forum staff. We have many users from many different countries that visit here and English is the common language of these forums.

[Swermed]

Do not talk about the milk of Hebei Province, China ... ... seems to be a Linux called "Red Flag" is the Chinese Linux.



Anyway, I prefer downloading software, movies, games on the Internet

[bapoumba]

Please remember that other languages are allowed in the LoCo Teams forums. One the main forums, please use English. Thanks.

[Swermed]

Please remember that other languages are allowed in the LoCo Teams forums. One the main forums, please use English. Thanks.

Oh, I understood.
Although my English is very bad, but I with every effort

[smoker]

China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!

nothing wrong with China being suspicious of western proprietary operating systems and wanting something they know for sure can't compromise their security, and if they go for linux, all the better. yes, there is a lack of what the west would regard as basic human rights in China, but i believe it is improving gradually, albeit slowly (though i'm not Chinese and have no personal experience, just what i see and read in the media, so i could be wrong!).

[bapoumba]

Oh, I understood.
Although my English is very bad, but I with every effort
No problem !

[Swermed]

nothing wrong with China being suspicious of western proprietary operating systems and wanting something they know for sure can't compromise their security, and if they go for linux, all the better. yes, there is a lack of what the west would regard as basic human rights in China, but i believe it is improving gradually, albeit slowly (though i'm not Chinese and have no personal experience, just what i see and read in the media, so i could be wrong!).



China has two good systems, is a "Red flag" Linux, and the other is the "Unicorn Galaxy," a military operating system. Unfortunately, however, apparently did not use Windows ... ...


"Human rights" concept little. But I have heard that Microsoft's conduct appears to be a breach of the law

[t0p]

Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!

Back when I was younger (not much younger than today) I bought a Chinese-made air rifle. It was a fifth of the price of similarly-specified "Western-built" rifles, but just as powerful and accurate - and a lot sturdier.

"Made In China" doesn't necessarily mean "crap".

[Swermed]

Back when I was younger (not much younger than today) I bought a Chinese-made air rifle. It was a fifth of the price of similarly-specified "Western-built" rifles, but just as powerful and accurate - and a lot sturdier.

"Made In China" doesn't necessarily mean "crap".

Ha! I approve of your opinion intensely!
(as if the topic a little politicizes, we said other? )

[LaRoza]

Lets look at the forum rules which you seem to be ignoring.

http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

A few words that slip out in discussions about someone's homeland are not reasons to say the post is not worth posting ;)

[eternalnewbee]

Originally Posted by kevdog View Post
China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!
That's just rude!!!

[mips]

A few words that slip out in discussions about someone's homeland are not reasons to say the post is not worth posting ;)

I never said it was not worth posting, someone else did though I think. Most 'here' do not understand it though.

[billgoldberg]

In short,

The windows update is detecting pirate software and blacking out the screen. This is very annoying to Chinese users, most of whom are using pirate Microsoft. Mainly because it is so incredibly expensive (in Chinese terms) to buy valid software.

from the story;

Cao Cen, vice chairman of Evermore Software, a distributor for Office in China, said Microsoft was trying to sell as many authorised copies as possible before domestic software usurped its share of the market. The Chinese government is funding programmers to come up with Chinese operating systems.

"China will move towards Linux fully in the future", said Mr Cao.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3240457/Microsoft-blacks-out-Chinese-computers.html

China goes Linux.

That's a bit of an over statement, but still.

If you can't afford a product and pirate it, you have no right to complain about it.

[mikewhatever]

China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!

The 'China goes to Linux' part of the thread's title is misleading. The article quoted by the OP (nor any other source) claims nothing of the sort, so it's safe to assume the OP 'invented' that particular piece of news. I've already made a statement on this in post #95 of this thread.

As for a Chinese linux distro, you are welcome to try one and report on its quality.

[Dragonbite]

One part of piracy is the idea of getting something better for free. If Windows costs money and is the "standard" and one can get it for free, then it stands to reason it is more "worth it" to use that then to use something that anybody can get access to anytime and it is also free but legal.

The perceived "return on investment" (investment of possibly getting caught, or having Microsoft close down your system, etc.) is higher with Windows than it is with Linux.

[mikewhatever]

One part of piracy is the idea of getting something better for free. If Windows costs money and is the "standard" and one can get it for free, then it stands to reason it is more "worth it" to use that then to use something that anybody can get access to anytime and it is also free but legal.

The perceived "return on investment" (investment of possibly getting caught, or having Microsoft close down your system, etc.) is higher with Windows than it is with Linux.

Hmm..., you are probably right. It's also probable that people just steal for the sake of stealing. However, it's still seems odd when applied to Vista. Based on what I heard about it and having Ubuntu work so well, I wouldn't even take a free and legal copy.

[yavez]

On the subject of piracy; the inequity in profit-based computing created the Pirate more than anything else. If you price an operating system or a piece of software at anything above 0 you create a digital divide between those who can afford and those who can't. When you replace this with zero cost access, as in open-source, you defeat piracy and actually create a more healthy scenario for everyone.

Example:

Cost of Linux/Ubuntu/Open Source Software = 0/time to download
Access available = everyone with a computer
Result = no need for piracy

Cost of Windows/OSX/Closed Source - variable/according to income
Access Available = those who can afford it
Result = those with technical ability/not enough money will pirate

So you may be asking, how does anybody make money with this model? The answer is surprisingly simple; altruism. In the last year I've spent more actual cash on Ubuntu/Open Source than I ever did with Windows/OSX/Closed source. The reason why is also simple, I'm much more inclined to donate money, whether through buying CD's/DVDS, merchandise or donation buttons when I know the motivation behind production isn't solely the acquisition of profit whilst eradicating more and more freedoms and growing the divide between the haves and the have nots.

We can see things changing, if slowly, in all industries based upon the reproduction of data. Music production is gradually falling back into the hands of the creators, instead of the companies that control distribution. Now you can download oodles of great songs for free and donate if you like the music. A lot of open-source software uses this model already, and you can bet that a vast majority of people will donate because it feels right and there is no arbitrary limit, whether low or high. In essence you pay what is right for you.

We're in the midst of a sea-change in the way we interact with each other, the way we are entertained and the way we acknowledge or give back to others. China's rejection of Microsoft licensing costs and the decision to go to Linux is not just one of economics, but a cultural shift. What if all companies existed with a twin mandate of giving back as well as making money? Canonical already uses this model and is highly successful.

There is no denying the vast importance of the open-source philosophy in computing, and it won't be long before that philosophy is dominant in our culture.

In twenty years time we'll be asking the question: Whatever happened to Microsoft and Apple?

[erdu]

see I don't think linux will ever be infected with viruses cause of user permissions mainly and even Vista has that now so the problem of viruses is over on Windows to, since its the users fault for allowing it.

no need to worry :)

Quite so. It's also the developers fault (read MS) for allowing software getting copied/pirated. If MS would have been clever enough, they would have invented DRM (and the like) on an OS level twenty years ago.

[erdu]

China supporting OPEN-source?? Doesn't something seem wrong about this statement? A government that filters the internet to their people are now going to support and Open Source initiative.

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!

Bought Chinese steel tools (pliers, wrenches, screwdrivers...) 16 years ago in Xinjiang. Been using (and abusing) them frequently and heavily ever since. To this day, none of them has worn out in the slightest way. I've never seen steel that was both so strong, so well-made...and yet dirt cheap. Maybe Adam Smith's ideas were not that universal after all :)

[Frak]

Bought Chinese steel tools (pliers, wrenches, screwdrivers...) 16 years ago in Xinjiang. Been using (and abusing) them frequently and heavily ever since. To this day, none of them has worn out in the slightest way. I've never seen steel that was both so strong, so well-made...and yet dirt cheap. Maybe Adam Smith's ideas were not that universal after all :)
I don't recall on how Adam Smith's ideas were against well made, cheap goods; made universally for the world to use with the workforce gathering where they can.

Seems on par with "The Wealth of Nations".

[wrtpeeps]

Total non story.

Piracy is piracy.

[lancest]

From what I hear we Americans were big IP pirates early on in our history. Our most famous copyright pirate (http://www.tuxdeluxe.org/node/157) was Benjamin Franklin. Franklin's principles didn't inhibit him from re-publishing the works of eighteenth century British authors without seeking their permission or offering remuneration, and he was not alone. In the Outline of American Literature, published by the US Department of State, it is asserted that: "Printers everywhere in America followed (Franklin's) lead" There are notorious examples of pirating. Matthew Carey, an important American publisher, paid a London agent - a sort of literary spy - to send copies of unbound pages, or even proofs, to him in fast ships that could sail to America in a month. Carey's men would sail out to meet the incoming ships in the harbor and speed the pirated books into print using typesetters who divided the book into sections and worked in shifts around the clock. Such a pirated English book could be reprinted in a day and placed on the shelves for sale in American bookstores almost as fast as in England." I think we'd better examine our history before we point fingers.
.

[LaRoza]

From what I hear we Americans were big IP pirates early on in our history. Our most famous copyright pirate (http://www.tuxdeluxe.org/node/157) was Benjamin Franklin. Franklin's principles didn't inhibit him from re-publishing the works of eighteenth century British authors without seeking their permission or offering remuneration, and he was not alone. In the Outline of American Literature, published by the US Department of State, it is asserted that: "Printers everywhere in America followed (Franklin's) lead" There are notorious examples of pirating. Matthew Carey, an important American publisher, paid a London agent - a sort of literary spy - to send copies of unbound pages, or even proofs, to him in fast ships that could sail to America in a month. Carey's men would sail out to meet the incoming ships in the harbor and speed the pirated books into print using typesetters who divided the book into sections and worked in shifts around the clock. Such a pirated English book could be reprinted in a day and placed on the shelves for sale in American bookstores almost as fast as in England." I think we'd better examine our history before we point fingers.
.

Um, what does that have to do with anything?

No one here did that and slavery was legal at the time, does that make the change in our society fruitless?

I think we better take into account our ability to not be tied to the past and improve society before we start saying others can't improve and move on

[I wanted to leave]

I often wonder why M$ don't seem to use the word "theft" as part of their vocabulary. Perhaps it reminds them of a time late in 1978 when a certain someone took somebody else's o/s to market, patent pending of course :KS

[zmjjmz]

I think we better take into account our ability to not be tied to the past and improve society before we start saying others can't improve and move on

I think we should stop using this typeface to get our points across.
So yeah, anyways, the whole "well our founding fathers were pirates" argument is crap.
Why?
Because our founding fathers did a lot of things that wouldn't be acceptable today.

[lancest]

Slavery as a moral issue being wrong certainly can't be debated. IP laws comming out of the USA certainly aren't on the same level. Apples and Oranges.

[zmjjmz]

Slavery as a moral issue being wrong certainly can't be debated. IP laws comming out of the USA certainly aren't on the same level. Apples and Oranges.

It wasn't just slavery.
One example of something terrible they did was unrepentant propaganda and lying.

[LaRoza]

Slavery as a moral issue being wrong certainly can't be debated. IP laws comming out of the USA certainly aren't on the same level.
Oh really? Then how come it is happening now, happened then, and many died to prevent it? It is highly debatable because it has been. Don't project your personal views on all as being "undebatable".


Apples and Oranges.
You are comparing slavery and ip laws to apples and oranges?

[lancest]

Ok so my point is that other countries aren't obligated to respect US IP unless they desire too. There is no moral authority for the US in that. If we as Americans think we are so high minded than why is our own history (the worlds) also steeped in piracy? All developing countries pirate! I'm no great legal mind but something about that bothers me. MS is always crying about losing money on piracy. Wrong model.

[LaRoza]

Ok so my point is that other countries aren't obligated to respect US IP unless they desire too.
No, they aren't. However, if they have official relations and agreements with the company (like China with Microsoft) they should honour that shouldn't they? It isn't like they are completely separated, or even not connected. They have laws and follow the same rules.



There is no moral authority for the US in that.
No, it has nothing to do with that.



If we as Americans think we are so high minded than why is our own history (the worlds) also steeped in piracy?
If you think that, fine, but don't make assumptions about other people (namely, myself). I don't think we are high minded or think the sins of our fathers are our own (so to speak).



All developing countries pirate!
Developed countries too.



I'm no great legal mind but something about that bothers me. MS is always crying about losing money on piracy. Wrong model.

No, it has nothing to do with that.

[ayllu]

Well, Chine is doing well, because the income level are not enough to get an original copy. But, what is de deal about buying microsoft windows;

1, you pay almost 100us dollars - a family in africa can use this amount of money for survive.
2 You get a software plagued of errors, at the second week of use you get a lot of messages of error that microsoft programers dosent know whats it is.
3 You get all vulnerabilities to get infected by a virus or hacked.
4 Your machine get slow, and slow, and slow, because all new project is design for your next computer.
5 The system can crash every time. Nobody knows when but its happens.
6 you only get compatibility with others users and almost all games works.

so who wants to pay for this "software", if you dont get nothing good. So if you want to test or use it, please, do it for free, dont get steal.

In the other hand, switching to ubuntu.

1 Stability
2 No virus, no hacks
3 Free
4 Fast and cool desing (compiz)
5 No crashes (until you start touching arround the OS)
6 The compatibility is a problem that is going to be solve.

And remember the first pirate was Bill Gate stealing windows from Apple so:
Thief who steals a thief get a hundred years of forgiveness.

[LaRoza]

And remember the first pirate was Bill Gate stealing windows from Apple so:
Thief who steals a thief get a hundred years of forgiveness.

Not really. It was more of a ripoff of IBM with a GUI like Apple's after a while.

Software "piracy" was common before that as well.

[EdThaSlayer]

I might be dreaming, but I see a future with a lot of cool linux games to buy. :)

[I wanted to leave]

Not really. It was more of a ripoff of IBM with a GUI like Apple's after a while.

Software "piracy" was common before that as well.


So true. And the very reason M$ haven't exercised their so called "patent rights" yet. 3 letters... I B M

[seshomaru samma]

One of the few things that is going for Linux in China is the Loongson processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson) developed in China which runs Linux.
Microsoft doesn't really scare anyone in China, the next day most major websites in China had instructions how to tweak the registry to avoid the black screen.

By the way , sorry for using Chinese in one of my posts, the post was bilingual, but anyway...sorry people

[bapoumba]

By the way , sorry for using Chinese in one of my posts, the post was bilingual, but anyway...sorry people
That's okay, but some posts did not have translations (I have not read the thread back, and I do not remember who posted, that is not important). Everyone should be able to understand posts on the main forums :)

[graabein]

I might be dreaming, but I see a future with a lot of cool linux games to buy. :)

Kung fu games!!!

:popcorn:

More and more countries and organizations are moving to GNU/Linux and open standards. It can only be a good thing.

[wrtpeeps]

Well, Chine is doing well, because the income level are not enough to get an original copy. But, what is de deal about buying microsoft windows;

1, you pay almost 100us dollars - a family in africa can use this amount of money for survive.
2 You get a software plagued of errors, at the second week of use you get a lot of messages of error that microsoft programers dosent know whats it is.
3 You get all vulnerabilities to get infected by a virus or hacked.
4 Your machine get slow, and slow, and slow, because all new project is design for your next computer.
5 The system can crash every time. Nobody knows when but its happens.
6 you only get compatibility with others users and almost all games works.

so who wants to pay for this "software", if you dont get nothing good. So if you want to test or use it, please, do it for free, dont get steal.

In the other hand, switching to ubuntu.

1 Stability
2 No virus, no hacks
3 Free
4 Fast and cool desing (compiz)
5 No crashes (until you start touching arround the OS)
6 The compatibility is a problem that is going to be solve.

And remember the first pirate was Bill Gate stealing windows from Apple so:
Thief who steals a thief get a hundred years of forgiveness.

Kudos to you.

This post kept me laughing for a long time.

[rajeev1204]

China is going to produce a linux-branded OS? Just from my humble experiences in my short life, but everything I've ever bought from China is made extremely poorly, likely contains lead or other toxic substances when ingested (chinese milk anyone?), and is frankly downright crap!


Thats a direct insult to the chinese people.

The products you have purchased of chinese make are made like that as they are made for a price.Why dont you spend more money and buy something american then.Quoting a certain food product to blame the whole chinese is what is crap.

And by the way, china is a major manufacturing hub for asia with big names like samsung,viewsonic and other electronic majors outsourcing their manufacturing to the asia region and these products are of a very high standard.



You should have received an infraction by now .

Ill leave it to the forum staff.




regards

rajeev.

[ukripper]

Thats a direct insult to the chinese people.

The products you have purchased of chinese make are made like that as they are made for a price.Why dont you spend more money and buy something american then.Quoting a certain food product to blame the whole chinese is what is crap.

And by the way, china is a major manufacturing hub for asia with big names like samsung,viewsonic and other electronic majors outsourcing their manufacturing to the asia region and these products are of a very high standard.



You should have received an infraction by now .

Ill leave it to the forum staff.




regards

rajeev.

+1 That is very insulting indeed! And china is producing most of the electronics in this day and age for everyone in europe anyway, from big manufacturers to the tiny ones all are outsourced to china!

[blablatestbla]

What's the PC attitude here? It's well known China is the hub of manufacturing since things are so damn cheap. Maybe rajeev1204 took offence since he's from India and they are kinda the same in this regard.

[mybunche]

They should choose Ubuntu!

China also does coding for Microsoft Windows. China is/will be Microsofts biggest customer, paid or not paid for, it doesn't matter. Millions of Chinese will be brought up on nothing but knowing Microsoft Windows. I hope Linux gets a strong holding there. Their help in coding for Linux will help everyone.

[eternalnewbee]

I hope Linux gets a strong holding there. Their help in coding for Linux will help everyone.
Amen to that.