Are you a pure vegetarian? [Archive]

forrestcupp

October 22nd, 2008, 03:00 PM

I'm a carnivore.Me too. I'm a meatetarian. But just so I don't have a guilty conscience, I let other people kill the cute, furry animals that I eat.

And just to keep the vegetarians/vegans happy, I kill some plants and eat them, too.

I don't eat meat, but I do eat fish. Kind of hypocrittical, I guess *shrug :)It's kind of like in the movie Madagascar. All through the movie, the lion is trying to eat his friends. Then at the end of the movie, they show him that fish tastes about as good as steak, so everything is alright. I hope there aren't any kids that watch that directly after watching "Finding Nemo". :)

Canis familiaris

October 22nd, 2008, 03:10 PM

I am Vegetarian. :)

Lostincyberspace

October 22nd, 2008, 03:17 PM

Are there any Fruitarians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

the whole concept of not eating animals because you have to kill them is absurd to me me because if you are going to do it for animals than you should do it for plants. And unless you are Fruitarian than you have to kill some thing to eat, or you will die. but then you have to kill something to keep you warm, clothed, and various other things.

SO I say eat meat, but be smart don't only eat meat. Me I stay, mostly in the grains section, what can I say I love my bread.

y-lee

October 22nd, 2008, 03:28 PM

Yep been vegan for about 30 years now. And by the way, I don't understand comments like:

Had some distant relatives who were strict vegans. Every time I saw them they look ill, thin and pasty.

I am a brick mason and certainly don't look ill thin or pastry, my job entails moving 12 to 20 tons a day. When i actually work that is, been kinda lazy lately. My brother who is also a vegetarian is a body builder, a power lifter, as well as a mason and he hardly looks thin or ill despite the fact he has a serious drug problem (opiates).

So i can't understand anyone claiming vegans look ill or thin, i know very few that do (aside from like 2 Goths, and goths usually look pastry and many are thin regardless of diet).

ukripper

October 22nd, 2008, 03:42 PM

I'm omnivorous although I cook plants or meat before eating.

RiceMonster

October 22nd, 2008, 03:45 PM

issih

October 22nd, 2008, 03:45 PM

Yep...lacto-ovo-vegetarian.

Only things I ever let slide are beer/wine and leather shoes...and only if I can't find a veggie alternative.

Totally non militant about it though...its my choice, and I'm lucky that I get to be so fussy...end of story

Lorelei-

October 22nd, 2008, 04:09 PM

I'm about 75% vegetarian. I don't tend to eat red meat, but I do occasionally eat chicken & fish which makes life less hassle when the only vegetarian alternative offered is stuffed mushrooms (I *hate* mushrooms) or green salad.

Chances are that in time I will go completely vegetarian, but as I don't have my own place at the moment its a tad more difficult because I have to cope with cooking in someone else's kitchen and having limited storage.

My current food obsession is lentils though!

cammin

October 22nd, 2008, 04:13 PM

Not a vegetarian at all.
I avoid seafood and venison because I don't like the flavor of it.
I'd avoid bottom feeding seafood, even if I could stand the taste of it.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 04:26 PM

I don't think it's fair to make a "vegetarians are pale and pasty" generalization. There are healthy and unhealthy vegetarians, just as there are healthy and unhealthy carnivores. Overall, I think it is easier to be healthy on a vegetarian diet (studies have shown lower incidence of heart disease and colon cancer), but it does require more effort to prepare meals, as you can't eat a lot of fast food and frozen entrees.

Personally, I've been more or less vegetarian for half my life. I've found a good balance, which is to cook vegetarian at home but be flexible if someone else is cooking for me. I enjoy "veggie burgers" and "tofu dogs" sometimes, but most of the food I cook is not in the category of "fake meat." I think the reason those things exist is so you can transition to vegetarianism without giving up your favorite foods.

When I made the switch back in the early '90s, most people were doing it for ethical reasons. I think over time, more and more people will start eliminating or cutting back on meat for environmental reasons. Did you know for example that what you eat has a greater impact on the environment than what kind of car you drive? Giving up meat just one day a week lowers your "carbon footprint" about as much as switching from a standard to a hybrid automobile!

I think vegetarians in general should be more accepting of people who are reducing their meat consumption but aren't 100%. I know I used to make fun of people who said "I'm vegetarian--I only eat fish and chicken." But now, instead of seeing it in black and white, I like to think of a lovely "meat rainbow."

Kevbert

October 22nd, 2008, 04:27 PM

Yep been vegan for about 30 years now. And by the way, I don't understand comments like:

I am a brick mason and certainly don't look ill thin or pastry, my job entails moving 12 to 20 tons a day. When i actually work that is, been kinda lazy lately. My brother who is also a vegetarian is a body builder, a power lifter, as well as a mason and he hardly looks thin or ill despite the fact he has a serious drug problem (opiates).

So i can't understand anyone claiming vegans look ill or thin, i know very few that do (aside from like 2 Goths, and goths usually look pastry and many are thin regardless of diet).

Just stating what I've seen in my personal experience. In the UK, it's pasty (like anemic) not pastry, that's what we make pies from. If you can go without meat and fish, well good for you.:):):)

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 04:27 PM

I'm happy to be an omnivore and have no qualms about killing things to eat them.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 04:39 PM

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 04:46 PM

(especially, since it is only to justify your habits, because you feel intimidated by mine).

I doubt anyone would be intimidated in any way by your vegan preference?

Why would they be?

I know I'm not.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 04:48 PM

I am a dietary vegan.

The one thing I dislike: All the stupid things people say when they hear I am a vegan. I only mention it if asked, or if I need to explain something (like, when I am not eating something that is offered) to avoid being rude.

However, everyone feels a need to make some dumb comment or ask the same old dumb questions. I'm a vegan. I don't preach. Don't preach to me (especially, since it is only to justify your habits, because you feel intimidated by mine).

"How do you get enough protein?"
"What about milk/cheese/ice cream?"
"What about thanksgiving?"
"What if you were starving on a desert island and a cow died from natural causes and tipped over onto the grill?"

and my personal favorite

"I could never be vegetarian, I like steak/chicken/lamb/lobster too much."

thanks for sharing!

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 04:59 PM

I doubt anyone would be intimidated in any way by your vegan preference?

Why would they be?

I know I'm not.

Because they deep down haven't been able to rationalise their eating habits and apparently use the "everyone does it" excuse and when they know I am a vegan, they suddenly have to explain to themselves why they buy the pieces of dead animals and burn them to eat, and it is much easier to discredit me than to say "I eat dead animals and that is OK to me".

"How do you get enough protein?"
"What about milk/cheese/ice cream?"
"What about thanksgiving?"
"What if you were starving on a desert island and a cow died from natural causes and tipped over onto the grill?"

and my personal favorite

"I could never be vegetarian, I like steak/chicken/lamb/lobster too much."

thanks for sharing!

"Aren't you killing plants?"

About Thanksgiving, I get to make the cranberry sauce. Well, I open the cans.

mr.propre

October 22nd, 2008, 05:01 PM

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 05:04 PM

Yes I am, for 3 reasons: health, starvation and against Violants.

My first reason is health. (Also, violence, although I like your spelling)

I against violants in any form. No mater if your a human, a cow or a fly. When I kill a spider, I feel terrible. This is the reason why my GF is a Pescetarianism (No meat or poultry)

I too have adopted an "ahimsa" like philosophy after becoming a vegan, but it wasn't the reason why I am a vegan.

Also, I never (knowingly) kill spiders (actually, I leave them alone. They take care of the things I might be compelled to kill.)

I also do not bother house centipedes. What could be better than a miniature nocturnal, human shy house cleaner? That is what they do. And I think they are beautiful. My mother however, hates them, and I save them from her (they are tricky to catch).

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 05:25 PM

~ Because they deep down haven't been able to rationalise their eating habits ~

I think you're making an assumption there?

Most people just don't think about their eating habits, or feel any need to "rationalise" them, they just get on with it.

Perhaps you would like to feel that people are intimidated by you, which is why you mentioned it in the first place?

Christmas

October 22nd, 2008, 05:42 PM

I remember there was this documentary on TV where they said even plants in a room can actually 'feel' when there is a fight or argument in the house, and they have different reactions depending on those. I think it doesn't make much sense to be a vegetarian, since vegetables are also living organisms. It's true, it doesn't feel the same to eat a vegetable, while it seems cruel to kill an animal for meat, but it's the nature's law. We have to eat something after all.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 05:43 PM

What do you think cows eat? You are not "saving the poor, innocent plants" by eating meat. :)

SpenceMakesSense

October 22nd, 2008, 05:51 PM

Well my mom is like half vegetarian. She wont eat meat...unless she likes the type of meat we happen to be eating. -.-

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 05:51 PM

Most people just don't think about their eating habits, or feel any need to "rationalise" them, they just get on with it.

That is what I mean. They don't think about it.

Perhaps you would like to feel that people are intimidated by you, which is why you mentioned it in the first place?
No, I wish people would shut up about it. I don't mind questions about the lifestyle if they are genuine questions, but I do mind attacks on it.

I said I don't mention it unless asked or if I have to to avoid being rude. I don't mind other people living their lifes the way they want to.

However, people are obviously intimidated when they are uncomfortable with the fact I am a vegan and try to attack it or rationalise to me why they eat what they eat. I don't care why or what they eat.

You'd have to experience it I think to fully understand. There are some vocal vegans (like Linux users) and they invite comments, but I keep it to myself and yet I get this flak.

I remember there was this documentary on TV where they said even plants in a room can actually 'feel' when there is a fight or argument in the house, and they have different reactions depending on those.
Beware of documentaries on TV. I also saw a book that claimed water could feel things ;)

I think it doesn't make much sense to be a vegetarian, since vegetables are also living organisms.
That doesn't make sense. You are making assumptions about the lifestyle. The reasons for it vary. Some do feel killing plants isn't right (typically, they eat fruit and nuts, which do not involve killing the plant and are meant to be eaten by design).

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 06:09 PM

I wish people would shut up about it. I don't mind questions about the lifestyle if they are genuine questions, but I do mind attacks on it.

That's definitely not on, you should never be attacked for your dietary preference of being a vegan.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 06:16 PM

That's definitely not on, you should never be attacked for your dietary preference of being a vegan.

Exactly.

I know you didn't do it, and many didn't but I shouldn't have to be grateful you didn't right?

To others:

You know those vegans/linux advocates/politicians/religious people/etc that constantly tell you that you are wrong and why you should believe as they do? It is just as annoying when done by you.

Old Marcus

October 22nd, 2008, 06:21 PM

I'm a definite meat eater, but I spend most of the summer eating vegetarian food, (since the organisation I work with during the summer has a vegetarian kitchen - veg keeps better than meat on a festival site) so I'm a bit of both. If I had to, I could go vege, but I like my meat too much to go vege out of choice.

jomiolto

October 22nd, 2008, 07:32 PM

Yes, mostly for environmental and health reasons. When I'm making my own food I'm practically a vegan (only sometimes using cheese for pizza), but I'm a bit more flexible when I'm eating somewhere else -- it's quite easy to find vegetarian food around here, but almost nowhere do they have vegan.

DFlame

October 22nd, 2008, 07:36 PM

100% omnivore here. I'll eat pretty much anything edible that's placed infront of me. I don't give the vegetarians/vegans/other diet people trouble unless they bring it to me first. I understand the reasons some people make particular choices in this area, I just don't believe in them myself.

What I won't stand for is people picking on others according to their dietary prefrence. It's just.... mean.

DFlame

richg

October 22nd, 2008, 07:44 PM

No, I am a meatarian..

Rich

I-75

October 22nd, 2008, 07:51 PM

I stopped eating pork entirely, I prefer lamb over beef. I'll make hamburgers with chopped lamb. Every now and then I'll make Fillet Mignon, can't do it too often...too expensive.

I'll still make a roast in the crock pot slow cooker, like three pounds of meat, 5 lbs of potatoes and onions and tomato soup all thrown in ...cook that for 7 hours and I have leftovers for days.

I Like broccoli, sometimes I'll just boil a head of broccoli florets and just have that for dinner with some butter. I can go days without eating beef, but will eat chicken instead.

I-75

October 22nd, 2008, 08:00 PM

Exactly.

I know you didn't do it, and many didn't but I shouldn't have to be grateful you didn't right?

To others:

You know those vegans/linux advocates/politicians/religious people/etc that constantly tell you that you are wrong and why you should believe as they do? It is just as annoying when done by you.

I am a libertarian, I always thought people should never apologize for their beliefs or way of life...even though I may not subscribe or follow it myself. If people don't like me eating meat or using Linux, its their problem...not mine.

Eisenwinter

October 22nd, 2008, 08:02 PM

What do you think cows eat? You are not "saving the poor, innocent plants" by eating meat. :)
There is one thing you are missing here, though.

I used to work in organic vegetables growing.
The sole purpose of vegetables, is that you'll eat them.

Have you ever noticed that vegetables have seeds inside of them?
You eat them, and then dump the seeds out, in return, creating more plants.

It's a form of multiplying, and continuing the species, for the veggies.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 08:03 PM

I am a libertarian, I always thought people should never apologize for their beliefs or way of life...even though I may not subscribe or follow it myself. If people don't like me eating meat or using Linux, its their problem...not mine.

Ok, although I don't know how that follows my post.

My point was that vegans, at least, I, get a lot more grief from non-vegans about our life style.

There may be some vocal vegans, but the average non-vegan is much more pushy and annoying.

eragon100

October 22nd, 2008, 08:22 PM

Yes I am, for 3 reasons: health, starvation and against Violance.

Health is my main reason because when I eat meat, I get sick and I don't like that. This is also the reason why I started it. The other reason have just come along since I become vegetarian.

Starvation because if we would all be vegetarians, there would be food enough. A grain field produces more food over the years than a few cows.

I against violance in any form. No mater if your a human, a cow or a fly. When I kill a spider, I feel terrible. This is the reason why my GF is a Pescetarianism (No meat or poultry)

Animals taste good, so I eat them. I don't care they are being killed for it.

offtopic:

I mostly agree with the want-to-play game list on your blog. They contain some pretty cool violence! :cool: :guitar: (bioshock and world in conflict aren't the 2 most "soft" games ever made)

ddnev45

October 22nd, 2008, 08:40 PM

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 08:44 PM

I've noticed in this thread that there are some vegetarians who will occasionally eat fish -- I also know a couple that will eat fish or chicken. I've always found that intriguing because of the hierarchy it implies (or maybe I'm just inferring). Does anyone know a vegetarian who occasionally eats beef or pork?

Those aren't vegetarians. A vegetarian doesn't eat animals. Because of some issues with that defintion, vegan means a person who doesn't eat animals or products of animals.

Anyone who doesn't follow those defintions isn't a vegan/vegetarian.

RiceMonster

October 22nd, 2008, 08:47 PM

Starvation because if we would all be vegetarians, there would be food enough. A grain field produces more food over the years than a few cows.

That doesn't make sense. I don't understand how eating meat stops us from growing more crops. Not being a vegetarian does not mean eating only meat.

The violence part doesn't bother me either. Eating animals is part of the natural food chain. Then again, with mass production, we have kind of taken it overboard. I really don't care though.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 09:00 PM

Omnivore.

I've noticed in this thread that there are some vegetarians who will occasionally eat fish -- I also know a couple that will eat fish or chicken. I've always found that intriguing because of the hierarchy it implies (or maybe I'm just inferring). Does anyone know a vegetarian who occasionally eats beef or pork?

Yes, I am a "vegetarian" who occasionally eats fish (a few times a month) and beef (a few times a year). I do not particularly care for the flavor of pork or poultry however.

Remember that people are vegetarian for different reasons. Someone who is vegetarian for health reasons might include fish in their diet because of its alleged health benefits, for example. Or, someone who is vegetarian for environmental reasons might believe that beef and pork have the greatest impact on the environment, whereas fishing does not cut down the rain forest. Or, someone who is vegetarian for cultural reasons may come from a tradition (such as parts of Asia) whose definition of "vegetarian" permits seafood.

But the most common answer to your question is that yes, your assumption is correct, many semi-vegetarians are more comfortable eating a bird or fish than a mammal, because obviously a mammal is closer to humans evolutionarily, and we can speculate its mental capacity for pain and suffering is more similar to our own than, say, an oyster. :)

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 09:01 PM

Yes, I am a "vegetarian" who occasionally eats fish (a few times a month) and beef (a few times a year). I do not particularly care for the flavor of pork or poultry however.

You aren't a vegetarian ;) Just a person who doesn't eat a lot of flesh foods.

altonbr

October 22nd, 2008, 09:04 PM

I like my meat: fish, pork, chicken, turkey, beef (steak); but I also eat lots and lots of veggies and fruits: apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, peaches.

I think a mix is good for, so long as you're not weighted too far on one side, or deep fry your vegetables just to eat them (french fries, etc.)

Capt. Mac

October 22nd, 2008, 09:05 PM

I can proudly proclaim that I am a meatetarian. For every animal that you don't eat, I will eat 3.

forrestcupp

October 22nd, 2008, 09:08 PM

they suddenly have to explain to themselves why they buy the pieces of dead animals and burn them to eat, and it is much easier to discredit me than to say "I eat dead animals and that is OK to me".
I'm not afraid to say that I eat dead animals. When prepared correctly, they are quite savory. And the animals don't feel a burning sensation as they are already out of their misery.

I really don't have any problem with you or anyone else being a vegan/vegetarian. I'm not going to try to talk you out of it because I really don't care. It's not a big deal that you prefer to not eat meat, and obviously you are able to do it in a way to keep yourself healthy.

I just think it's humorous when vegans/vegetarians try to put a guilt trip on people for eating meat.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 09:12 PM

Those aren't vegetarians. A vegetarian doesn't eat animals. Because of some issues with that defintion, vegan means a person who doesn't eat animals or products of animals.

Anyone who doesn't follow those defintions isn't a vegan/vegetarian.

Whoa, what happened to your avatar???

I have to argue with you a little bit; I eat meat a few times a month, but still call myself a "vegetarian." To me, vegetarianism is a belief system, and I definitely share the vegetarian beliefs.

An analogy would be the belief system we call Christianity. Christians are supposed to follow the 10 Commandments, right? But in the real world, people break them all the time. Does that mean they cease to be Christians at that moment, or rather, that they become Christian sinners? :)

If I'm at a pot luck and accidentally eat something that has meat, do I cease to be vegetarian?

Or, let's say I am 100% vegetarian for 50 years, and then one day eat a hamburger. Am I no longer a vegetarian? If not, how long would I have to "fast" on vegetables before I can call myself vegetarian again?

What about the opposite, let's say I eat meat every day for 50 years, then one day I eat tofu instead. Am I now suddenly a vegetarian?

MasterNetra

October 22nd, 2008, 09:16 PM

I'm a Omnivore and proud of it. A species best survives by being able to consume a large variety of things. (unless your a plant then its about light,nutrient, & water efficiency)

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 09:18 PM

I just think it's humorous when vegans/vegetarians try to put a guilt trip on people for eating meat.

I don't think it's funny at all.
Some vegetarians/vegans feel very strongly about sentient beings being killed for their flesh to be consumed and it greatly upsets them.
If some vegetarians/vegans attempt to encourage other people to desist from eating animals, where's the harm in showing them some understanding and being sympathetic to their distress?

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 09:25 PM

I'm not afraid to say that I eat dead animals. When prepared correctly, they are quite savory.

Ok.

I just think it's humorous when vegans/vegetarians try to put a guilt trip on people for eating meat.

I think some may go overboard, but I haven't met any like that. What I do think is disturbing is people who mock us or taunt us.

I can proudly proclaim that I am a meatetarian. For every animal that you don't eat, I will eat 3.
Like this.

DFlame

October 22nd, 2008, 09:28 PM

I don't think it's funny at all.
Some vegetarians/vegans feel very strongly about sentient beings being killed for their flesh to be consumed and it greatly upsets them.
If some vegetarians/vegans attempt to encourage other people to desist from eating animals, where's the harm in showing them some understanding and being sympathetic to their distress?

Now this one's interesting. I smoke, and therefore people tell me to stop. If people have a problem with me smoking nearby them then I will gladly stop as I'm well aware of the negative health effects.

However, that steak I'm eating won't be saved. I'll listen and understand but by no means will I stop :) A well structured argument or debate will go down a storm, but you can't really show sympathy for the "militant veggies" who will go out of their way to prevent you from consuming meat.

DFlame

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 09:33 PM

I just think it's humorous when vegans/vegetarians try to put a guilt trip on people for eating meat.

I have to call you out on this, but please understand I'm not trying to single you out personally. :)

If you saw someone murdering a child, would you try to stop them?
If you saw someone beating a dog to a pulp, would you try to stop them?

To many vegetarians, please understand that "meat is murder" and they are trying to correct a grave injustice that they see in the world.

I had these exact thoughts often in my first 5 or 10 years of vegetarianism. For some people, it turns into a lifelong crusade, for others, you try to find a way to co-exist with a largely omnivorous society.

gn2

October 22nd, 2008, 09:37 PM

However, that steak I'm eating won't be saved.

But if you stop eating meat today, the steak you would eat next week might survive.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 09:38 PM

I have to call you out on this, but please understand I'm not trying to single you out personally. :)

If you saw someone murdering a child, would you try to stop them?
If you saw someone beating a dog to a pulp, would you try to stop them?

To extend this:

If you saw thousands of cats and kitten in cramped crates being tossed around (and their legs being broken) and then tied to post and their skin is ripped off their living bodies, would you complain?

If you saw thousands of animals in tiny cages so they couldn't stand up, and laying in their own feces being fed sawdust and steroids, would you complain?

There is more to it than "eating animals". I am not against hunting. Why? Because that is not the problem. I am against poaching (illegal), but not hunting. I am against wholesale abuse though. That is not why I am a vegan though.

To many vegetarians, please understand that "meat is murder" and they are trying to correct a grave injustice that they see in the world.

The only activism I could be said to do is spread knowledge. If someone asks me why certain things are wrong, I will tell them exactly the facts. Hot Dogs? Sure, eat them. I never will. If you ask me why, you won't want to eat them either.

Handy said that video in his sig made him stop support such industries. The facts made him change. His ideals were always there.

MasterNetra

October 22nd, 2008, 10:05 PM

I don't think it's funny at all.
Some vegetarians/vegans feel very strongly about sentient beings being killed for their flesh to be consumed and it greatly upsets them.
If some vegetarians/vegans attempt to encourage other people to desist from eating animals, where's the harm in showing them some understanding and being sympathetic to their distress?

Oh and where is the sympathy for the plants? Where is the respect they deserve? Without them neither us nor the rest of the animals would even be here. Plants are responsible for terraforming early earth making it habitable for animal life and are the ones maintaining it!
And most animals aren't even near sentient. (True there are indeed some)

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 10:09 PM

MasterNetra

October 22nd, 2008, 10:17 PM

Plants don't feel pain.

Oh and what makes you think they don't? Just because they can't voice it doesn't mean they can't feel pain. Regardless they deserve a whole lot more respect then we give them.

As much respect as i may have for life in general. It doesn't stop me from being a omnivore. Its who we are. For as long as we kill to eat and not kill for greed or sport.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 10:25 PM

Oh and what makes you think they don't? Just because they can't voice it doesn't mean they can't feel pain. Regardless they deserve a whole lot more respect then we give them.

The burden is proof is on you.

There have been studies which showed the don't feel pain, and it would biologically not be logical.

Denestria

October 22nd, 2008, 10:27 PM

I have been vegetarian for 11 years. I don't eat fish, chicken, turkey, pork, or any of other animals that people try offer me because they think it isn't meat and vegetarians can eat that right? Meat does not only = Cow, sorry.

I try not to even mention it, have no desire to discuss it or preach my choice to others at the dinner table. Without even knowing me, people instantly assume I'm some kind of fanatic for making a healthier choice for myself. Meat eaters are the ones who are militant about how they can't live without meat, god made animals for them to eat, how my choice is ridiculous for killing plants, waving meat in my face and making yummy noises, and making jokes about tasty animals. You know what? I'm not even vegetarian for ethical reasons so don't assume things about me and shut it. As you can see this thread is already devolving into this behavior.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 10:31 PM

I have been vegetarian for 11 years. I don't eat fish, chicken, turkey, pork, or any of other animals that people try offer me because they think it isn't meat and vegetarians can eat that right? Meat does not only = Cow, sorry.
[/quote
Ever watch "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? "What do you mean he don't eat no meat! That's ok, I'll make lamb".

[quote]
I try not to even mention it, have no desire to discuss it or preach my choice to others at the dinner table. Without even knowing me, people instantly assume I'm some kind of fanatic for making a healthier choice for myself. Meat eaters are the ones who are militant about how they can't live without meat, god made animals for them to eat, how my choice is ridiculous for killing plants, waving meat in my face and making yummy noises, and making jokes about tasty animals. You know what? I'm not even vegetarian for ethical reasons so don't assume things about me and shut it. As you can see this thread is already devolving into this behavior.

+1000

ddnev45

October 22nd, 2008, 10:36 PM

Those aren't vegetarians. A vegetarian doesn't eat animals. Because of some issues with that defintion, vegan means a person who doesn't eat animals or products of animals.

Anyone who doesn't follow those defintions isn't a vegan/vegetarian.

That's why I don't consider it hypocritical like the earlier poster wrote; I just find it interesting that it's almost always fish that is the occasional meat of choice. I'm sure there is a health aspect to it all, but still intriguing.

yabbadabbadont

October 22nd, 2008, 10:45 PM

I just find it interesting that it's almost always fish that is the occasional meat of choice. I'm sure there is a health aspect to it all, but still intriguing.

It's harder to sympathize with a fish... ;)

y-lee

October 22nd, 2008, 11:04 PM

As much respect as i may have for life in general. It doesn't stop me from being a omnivore. Its who we are. For as long as we kill to eat and not kill for greed or sport.

It might be who you are but it most certainly is not who I am. Some people are cannibals too and I hardly see any difference between that and flesh eating. Times have changed and humanity can no afford to act like that anymore, our future is at stake and hopefully we will become more morally mature than that. The argument it is ok to kill when ya eat it seems lame to me as if you killed me it would make no difference to me why and it would worse if afterwards you ate me.

Denestria

October 22nd, 2008, 11:07 PM

Ever watch "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? "What do you mean he don't eat no meat! That's ok, I'll make lamb".

I have seen it, but it was quite some time ago and I forgot all about this until you mentioned it. That is so true. :)

Simey

October 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM

Vegetarian++; LaRoza++; Denestria++;

To derail the current topic;
Am I the only one that gets paranoid about the amount of white sugar they consume? The bleaching process for white sugar in most parts of the world uses calcium from the bones of bovines.

I look at it from the perspective of vegetarians shouldn't consume anything that requires the killing of a sentient being to obtain. i.e. Gelatine etc.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM

It might be who you are but it most certainly is not who I am. Some people are cannibals too and I hardly see any difference between that and flesh eating. Times have changed and humanity can no afford to act like that anymore, our future is at stake and hopefully we will become more morally mature than that. The argument it is ok to kill when ya eat it seems lame to me as if you killed me it would make no difference to me why and it would worse if afterwards ate me.

Interestingly, cannibals don't see it that way.

The book, which I want to get "Among the Cannibals: Adventures on the Trail of Man’s Darkest Ritual", by Paul Raffaele, has interesting studies on it.

Most of them don't see it as eating a human and would say eating a person is wrong. The reasons for it are interesting though and they way they are often able to make a person not a person.

snowpine

October 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM

Oh and where is the sympathy for the plants? Where is the respect they deserve? Without them neither us nor the rest of the animals would even be here. Plants are responsible for terraforming early earth making it habitable for animal life and are the ones maintaining it!

Sorry but your argument is silly :)

Here in the US where I live, more than half of the crops that are grown are fed to farm animals. It takes something obscene like 100 pounds of corn and soy to raise 1 pound of beef. If those crops were fed directly to humans instead of being inefficiently "filtered" through animals, we could feed the entire population on less acreage of farmland, thereby saving your precious plants. :)

And then there is the whole other issue of eating plants does not necessarily harm them. To harvest a potato, yes, you have to dig up the whole plant, but an apple tree will keep bearing fruit for years with no harm to the tree. In fact, it wants us to eat the fruit because that will help to spread the seeds.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:10 PM

Simey

October 22nd, 2008, 11:19 PM

I don't eat things that have animal parts, even the less obvious.

I tend to eat whole foods.

Is that to say you avoid white sugar, or that the sugar doesn't actually contain animal parts so it is more acceptable to eat it?

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:21 PM

Is that to say you avoid white sugar, or that the sugar doesn't actually contain animal parts so it is more acceptable to eat it?

I avoid white sugar (or any added sugar for that matter)

MasterNetra

October 22nd, 2008, 11:28 PM

The burden is proof is on you.

There have been studies which showed the don't feel pain, and it would biologically not be logical.

Even if true doesn't mean we shouldn't respect them. Destruction + Plants = World - Us

TwiceOver

October 22nd, 2008, 11:32 PM

I figure "god" gave me canine teeth to rip apart flesh so, no, not a vegetarian in any way.

My cousin is a vegetarian and he is by no means "small".

Simey

October 22nd, 2008, 11:35 PM

I avoid white sugar (or any added sugar for that matter)

Cool, so I'm not taking things far too extreme.

handy

October 22nd, 2008, 11:42 PM

Christmas

October 22nd, 2008, 11:42 PM

Some do feel killing plants isn't right (typically, they eat fruit and nuts, which do not involve killing the plant and are meant to be eaten by design
And I thought fruits were meant for other plants to grow from them. I really think it's a bigger of a crime to eat fruits, by killing the little babies of plants.

My point was that some people have the argument that killing an animal to eat it is cruel. But just because one can look into an animal's eyes or understand its pain better than he does at a plant, it doesn't mean the plants don't suffer in their own way.

Grant A.

October 22nd, 2008, 11:46 PM

To be honest, I don't really see the point in vegetarianism. I applaud those doing it for health reasons, though.

The omnivore's digestive systems are much more advanced than the simple carnivore, or the advanced herbivore. I don't really see the benefits in vegetarianism, it's your choice though, if it keeps you happy (and not to mention healthy!) go for it. I suppose my belief in evolution and Christianity somewhat fuels my omnivorous nature. I guess that that is the effect of being raised by an agnostic mother, and a some-what religious father. :)

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:46 PM

And I thought fruits were meant for other plants to grow from them. I really think it's a bigger of a crime to eat fruits, by killing the little babies of plants.

No, the design of fruit is meant to be eaten and its seeds spread. That is why they are so tasty ;)

Also, their really is no loss when the seeds are eaten. Most fruit sold in stores is impotent.

My point was that some people have the argument that killing an animal to eat it is cruel. But just because one can look into an animal's eyes or understand its pain better than he does at a plant, it doesn't mean the plants don't suffer in their own way.

That is a very far fetched way of looking at it. Sure, with less complex life forms, it is easy to justify killing. I don't kill insects and other arthropods if I can help it, but it isn't the same to me as killing a cat, which isn't the same as killing a whale, which isn't the same as killing a human.

Respect for life, all life, is what I have. Needlessly killing or causing needless suffering is what I am against (although that is not why I am a vegan).

The whole "killing plants" argument is one of the stupid things vegans have to deal with. It is like me saying why you think killing humans is wrong but will eat another creature with similiar anatomy.

Knock it off people...

y-lee

October 22nd, 2008, 11:50 PM

Interestingly, cannibals don't see it that way.

The book, which I want to get "Among the Cannibals: Adventures on the Trail of Man’s Darkest Ritual", by Paul Raffaele, has interesting studies on it.

Most of them don't see it as eating a human and would say eating a person is wrong. The reasons for it are interesting though and they way they are often able to make a person not a person.

Very good book and actually it is on my reading list too.

andras artois

October 22nd, 2008, 11:50 PM

If animals didn't want to be eaten they'd stop looking so tasty.

Grant A.

October 22nd, 2008, 11:50 PM

The whole "killing plants" argument is one of the stupid things vegans have to deal with. It is like me saying why you think killing humans is wrong but will eat another creature with similiar anatomy.

Knock it off people...

Well, also keep in mind that the first eukaryotic cells (from which we evolved from MANY millions of years ago) were carnivorous.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:50 PM

Very good book and actually it is on my reading list too.

I plan on getting it. I have only read things that cited it.

Christmas

October 22nd, 2008, 11:52 PM

Someone who is vegetarian for health reasons might include fish in their diet because of its alleged health benefits, for example. Or, someone who is vegetarian for environmental reasons might believe that beef and pork have the greatest impact on the environment, whereas fishing does not cut down the rain forest.
No, but it can lead to extermination of a fish species from a lake and massive number increase for other species, which eventually can finish up most of other organisms in there.

LaRoza

October 22nd, 2008, 11:53 PM

If animals didn't want to be eaten they'd stop looking so tasty.

They don't look tasty...

The smell of cooking meat is revolting to me. The thought of eating it is even worse.

People are conditioned to like it, it isn't natural.

ddarsow

October 22nd, 2008, 11:55 PM

Humans have eyes in the front and, as such, are predators.
Predators, by definition, are carnivores.
I am human.
Therefore, I eat meat.

I do respect vegetarians though....leaves more meat for me!

and so, to all you vegetarians out there....

THANK YOU!

Grant A.

October 22nd, 2008, 11:57 PM

Humans have eyes in the front and, as such, are predators.

Just for the sake of evolutionary correctness, we have a 180(?) degree field of vision due to our tree swinging ancestors.

C.S.Cameron

October 22nd, 2008, 11:59 PM

Lacto ovo since July 1968.

Christmas

October 22nd, 2008, 11:59 PM

No, the design of fruit is meant to be eaten and its seeds spread. That is why they are so tasty
Out of curiosity, how many vegetarians actually throw the seeds back in a green area instead of throwing them in the trash?

The whole "killing plants" argument is one of the stupid things vegans have to deal with. It is like me saying why you think killing humans is wrong but will eat another creature with similiar anatomy.
Because we don't (usually, I guess) kill people to eat them, while we do kill animals to eat them. It's not stupid, it's exactly the same thing as killing any other animal/plant, they all are living organisms, they all are an organic form of life.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 12:00 AM

Vegetarianism never made sense to me - especially when people eat stuff like veggie burgers and tofu dogs. If you're not going to eat meat, why do you want to eat food that's supposed to taste like meat? So ridiculous. I think eating meat is just part of life.

I think I can safely say that the vast majority of vegetarians don't choose the lifestyle for their own health. Some are vegetarians purely from a spiritual perspective, others choose to not be a part of the cruelty that is being inflicted on animals by humanity through their use of animals for food, clothing, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, scientific experimentation.

In combination with the dramatic ecological effects that humanities large scale farming of meat herds has had e.g. Jungles have been & are continually being destroyed for cheap meat, the clearing of huge amounts of forest in my own a mostly desert country has changed the environment dramatically; climate, erosion, native flora & fauna, water use & retention... Beef farming in particular, is the most energy inefficient form of food production & that is without taking into consideration the environmental repercussions.

If you want an education on humanities relationship with animals, have a look at the Earthlings.avi documentary in my signature.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 12:00 AM

Humans have eyes in the front and, as such, are predators.
Predators, by definition, are carnivores.
I am human.
Therefore, I eat meat.

Wow...

Humans have blunt teeth incapable of killing large animals. Humans have long intestines. Humans are not very strong, and the only type of hunting (of large animals) that we can do is persistance hunting.

I hate the "canine tooth" theories...

Play tug of war with a towel with a dog. You'll lose your teeth. Look at the teeth of a cat.

Humans are not like them.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 12:06 AM

Wow...

Humans have blunt teeth incapable of killing large animals. Humans have long intestines. Humans are not very strong, and the only type of hunting (of large animals) that we can do is persistance hunting.

I hate the "canine tooth" theories...

Play tug of war with a towel with a dog. You'll lose your teeth. Look at the teeth of a cat.

Humans are not like them.

Aren't the canines historically used for hard nuts and shells? Btw, without those canines we couldn't eat meat. Well we could, it would just be much harder. The 8 back molars are for plant matter, the 4 canines are for meat/ (Still nuts?), and the various incisors are for slicing.

Eisenwinter

October 23rd, 2008, 12:17 AM

mr.propre

October 23rd, 2008, 12:19 AM

I mostly agree with the want-to-play game list on your blog. They contain some pretty cool violence! :cool: :guitar: (bioshock and world in conflict aren't the 2 most "soft" games ever made)

Let me refrace myself, I'm against violence when there are victims. I' don't mind killing pixel on a computer screen, don't mind yelling to a mirror, trow/break something to calm yourself down. And when somebody attacks me, I will use minimal violence to protect me and run away. Sometimes you need to use violence, but: "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" - Sun-Tzu

That doesn't make sense. I don't understand how eating meat stops us from growing more crops. Not being a vegetarian does not mean eating only meat.

70% of all the wheat, corn, and other grain produced is fed to farmed animals. economically a cow eats more than it produces when you butcher it. "If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million." - Ecology professor David Pimente. I don't mind that people eat meat, but it wouldn't mind to eat a little less, especially in this time where starvation is still growing. Than again why should we care? We aren't the victims and when you turn of you tv/pc the problem is gone (for you).

I try not to even mention it, have no desire to discuss it or preach my choice to others at the dinner table. Without even knowing me, people instantly assume I'm some kind of fanatic for making a healthier choice for myself. Meat eaters are the ones who are militant about how they can't live without meat, god made animals for them to eat, how my choice is ridiculous for killing plants, waving meat in my face and making yummy noises, and making jokes about tasty animals. You know what? I'm not even vegetarian for ethical reasons so don't assume things about me and shut it. As you can see this thread is already devolving into this behavior.
+1001

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 12:21 AM

ddarsow

October 23rd, 2008, 12:21 AM

Wow...

Humans have blunt teeth incapable of killing large animals. Humans have long intestines. Humans are not very strong, and the only type of hunting (of large animals) that we can do is persistance hunting.

I hate the "canine tooth" theories...

Play tug of war with a towel with a dog. You'll lose your teeth. Look at the teeth of a cat.

Humans are not like them.

WE are intelligent. We use tools (including weapons) and can outwit our prey or opponents, well...at least in theory! ;)

Hence, we need neither "sharp teeth" nor physical strength to hunt with.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 12:35 AM

WE are intelligent. We use tools (including weapons) and can outwit our prey or opponents, well...at least in theory! ;)

Hence, we need neither "sharp teeth" nor physical strength to hunt with.

Not really. Put the average person in a situation, and they will be unable to get much and would be very well off with vegetation.

Obviously, you haven't really studied primative hunting or animal hunting.

Christmas

October 23rd, 2008, 12:44 AM

I disagree though. Books and situations like Love of Life by Jack London show that actually man can do much even without hunting tools and sharp teeth, like a wolf for example. Of course, I'm not saying to put it against a lion or a grizzly. That's beyond the scope of the discussion anyway, because situations like these arise very rare.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 12:46 AM

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 12:50 AM

Jack London also gives dogs some abilities ;)

Ozzy Osbourne has demonstrated our ability to eat live bats. :lolflag:

Btw, I would only think high mammals such as the felids, canids, ursidae, all of Hominidae, the rest of the Great Apes, and some members of the raccoon & mongoose families are sentient.

PS: And the cephalopod family as well, anyone else remember Steve the octopus?

Old_Grey_Wolf

October 23rd, 2008, 12:53 AM

But if you stop eating meat today, the steak you would eat next week might survive.

I was reading this thread for entertainment purposes. I really don't care what other people chose to eat. There are things I don't eat for religious reasons. That is my choice.

I came across the quoted posted above, and could not restrain myself from commenting on it. Comment follows:

Actually No. Most of the animals (I assume most are referring to mammals, i.e., steak) that humans eat on a regular basis are raised for the intent of being eaten. Very few people actually hunt game animals. Cattle are raised to be eaten; therefore, if there were no meat eaters then the cattle would not be born in the first place.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 12:55 AM

Cattle are raised to be eaten; therefore, if there were no meat eaters then the cattle would not be born in the first place.

Right, it's not like the cows that made our hamburgers are committing suicide like some people think.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 12:59 AM

Right, it's not like the cows that made our hamburgers are committing suicide like some people think.

Watch Earthlings (in my signature) & then come back & give us a revue please?

ddarsow

October 23rd, 2008, 01:00 AM

Not really. Put the average person in a situation, and they will be unable to get much and would be very well off with vegetation.

Obviously, you haven't really studied primative hunting or animal hunting.

I am an avid archery hunter and have killed (and eaten!) many animals with this primitive weapon after stalking to within 20 yards of the prey. I have successfully hunted such wild beats as: white tail deer, mule deer, elk, rabbit, turkey, and even trout from a stream with a bow and arrow.

I have "studied" in this manner for the past 25 years or so. \\:D/

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 01:07 AM

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 01:09 AM

I am an avid archery hunter and have killed (and eaten!) many animals with this primitive weapon after stalking to within 20 yards of the prey. I have successfully hunted such wild beats as: white tail deer, mule deer, elk, rabbit, turkey, and even trout from a stream with a bow and arrow.

I have "studied" in this manner for the past 25 years or so. \\:D/

I highly doubt you use a primative bow, or use less than modern arrows.

I also highly doubt that this is the most efficient way to get food for sustanence. If you had to live in the wild, I doubt you'd find making a bow and using it to be superior to gathering existing plants.

Christmas

October 23rd, 2008, 01:12 AM

I think Rambo is the master archer and nobody can mess with him.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 01:14 AM

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 01:18 AM

MasterNetra

October 23rd, 2008, 01:19 AM

I highly doubt you use a primative bow, or use less than modern arrows.

I also highly doubt that this is the most efficient way to get food for sustanence. If you had to live in the wild, I doubt you'd find making a bow and using it to be superior to gathering existing plants.

If you wish to survive you do both. However in the wild it is unlikely you will be substained by plants only. Where is you could via hunting even if hunting is more diffcult and in biomes other then tropical you usually have to hunt to survive at some point of the year. After all what are you going to do come winter in a temperate biome? When eatable plants aren't available? Being a Omnivore improves your chances of survival. And in deserts and taiga eatable plants aren't very substainable you probably end up killing a snake or something to eat. Our species is adapted to be omnivores not herbivores.

master5o1

October 23rd, 2008, 01:25 AM

I'm a carnivore.

Wow, ONLY meat? Surely you're an omnivore, like me.

Christmas

October 23rd, 2008, 01:30 AM

Actually this 'man in the wilderness' discussion brings up a new question. If there were no plants (or not enough to survive out of them), would a vegetarian drop his self-conscience issues and hunt for an animal which provides meat (if availabe). I really don't imagine a person dying of hunger just because he won't kill an animal to survive.

lisati

October 23rd, 2008, 01:31 AM

I'm an omnivore who will eat just about anything within reason. I'm not keen on tomatos (which stems from an incident when young, being made to eat tomato with bitter skin) and occasionally fish - I find the smell of some fish to be revolting. I don't mind tinned fish, however....

Fish heads! Yuck! (Sssh don't tell my Polynesian and Maori friends that I said that!)

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 01:32 AM

& consciousness.

So?

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the Earth.

Not trying to bring religion into this, but this is where I find one of my sources. Just because an animal is conscious, doesn't mean it can feel. Ex. lobsters.

zachtib

October 23rd, 2008, 01:38 AM

I'm halfway between vegetarian and vegan... I don't eat meat, and I'm lactose intolerant (so no milk or cheese) and I don't eat eggs. I do eat honey (which many don't consider vegan) and I don't really go out of my way to follow veganism except for the diet

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 01:48 AM

I choose to be a vegetarian firstly for the sake of the animals & secondly for our environment.

It only takes a little time to google up some details on any of the many aspects of the devastating effects being wrought on planet Earth by humanity.

I can only truly have a positive effect by what I choose to do. So the first thing to do is get educated about any subject that I am in a relationship with. After which I can make an informed judgement.

I will eat meat if my health/survival depends on it. I live in a rural environment & would have no trouble obtaining meat that has come from an animal that has been loved, cared for & humanly slaughtered. BUT I don't have to, so I don't.

By not eating meat I am not feeding that industry. That is what I am prepared to do firstly for the animals, secondly for the environment.

As far as individuals hunting/fishing is concerned, it can be the most acceptable form of procuring meat. It particularly depends on the hunter's/fisherman's attitude. Some have respect & gratitude for the animal, others find fun in killing & don't even care to make use of the animals carcass.

As stated above not eating meat was not done out of concern for my own health. Interestingly I am definitely a healthier person since I stopped eating meat, nearly two years ago now.

y-lee

October 23rd, 2008, 01:50 AM

Well actually, if you only ate plants in the wild, chances are you would either die from a nutrient deficiency, or poisoning from wild berries rather quick. An omnivorous diet is the most healthy diet in terms of vitamins in the wild as every animal is a walking sack of salts, vitamins, and sugars.

Come on now that is absurd. What you think plants don't contain salts, vitamins and sugars?

I happen to know the plants that live here well thank you and i have never saw a berry that was poisonous that did not taste poisonous. And besides there are only a couple really fatal plants here anyway, here being Appalachia Mountains in the eastern US. Ignoring mushrooms which aren't plants I can think of only two plants maybe three that could kill ya, the rest would just make ya sick. As to nutrition this area is abundant but ya could almost live off of acorns cattails and pine needles. That alone would almost meet all your needs. (acorns by the way need tannic acid washed out but that is easy to do even without fire).

But as I said before this area has lots of plants and not to mention tree barks. The inner bark of some trees are every tasty and nutritious. Birch or slippery elm for example. and also readily available in the winter when hunters are going to have a hard time finding anything moving.

Overall wild plants exceed domesticated ones in nutrition. Look it up. And i haven't even mentioned roots yet. There is one root hillbillies call indian potatoes grows in swamps and can get up to 60 lbs in size. You can stake it out in the summer and harvest it in the winter when some other plants are hard to come by. Also cattails in swamps have nut like modules on their roots that have a peanutty taste. I eat a large number of wild plants and I know ya can live off of them and i did once for two years. As a vegetarian too i might add. I might be a hillbilly ya know and I have lived a strange off the wall life.

To think hunting would be a good way to survive here is crazy especially using low tech weapons but even with a gun. I can pick up more acorns, black walnuts, hickory nuts, ... in an hour in terms of weight than even the best hunter is gonna kill in game in a day. Not to mention the calories they burn trying to find a deer or something not paying attention. I could fill a tractor trailer up full of acorns alone in one spot in the woods here and not even get them all. The squirrels might cuss me out but I can live with that :) And btw any of those nuts store well.

Honestly. I am still shaking my head in disbelief ya even said that. I suppose many people have no knowledge of what is in their environment and would have no way to survive if it wasn't for the ability to buy food in a store.

steveneddy

October 23rd, 2008, 01:58 AM

God put meat on the planet so we wouldn't have to be vegetarians.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 02:02 AM

God put meat on the planet so we wouldn't have to be vegetarians.

That's a very convenient & effective method of removing the need for responsibility & education on the matter.

Well done! :lolflag:

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 02:03 AM

God put meat on the planet so we wouldn't have to be vegetarians.

Er, that isn't logical.

God put humans on the planet so we wouldn't have to eat other things.

God put plants on the planet so we wouldn't have to eat other animals.

God put atheists on the planet to make this statement not make sense.

(Avoid religious discussion, God is just an expression here...)

Corfy

October 23rd, 2008, 02:05 AM

My former boss claimed to be a card-carrying member of PETA... People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Personally, I'm an omnivore. But one look at me, and it should be obvious I don't discriminate much about what I eat.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 02:17 AM

Come on now that is absurd. What you think plants don't contain salts, vitamins and sugars?

They do contain salts, vitamins, and sugars, but not ALL of the ones that we need. Animals however, do. Secondly, the plants needed to sustain a full diet of nutrients would require several plants that do not grow in the same area. Infact, there is no such place on Earth where all the essential plants grow in one place, naturally.

Ex. The Beri-Beri outbreak due to the lack of thiamine in white rice in the Dutch East Indies.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 02:21 AM

They do contain salts, vitamins, and sugars, but not ALL of the ones that we need. Animals however, do. Secondly, the plants needed to sustain a full diet of nutrients would require several plants that do not grow in the same area. Infact, there is no such place on Earth where all the essential plants grow in one place, naturally.

Um...

Not true. You'll note that the largest land animals eat plants.

Plants have all the essential amino acids and have the minerals needed. The only iffy situation is vitamin B-12, which is needed in very small amounts anyway, and is easily obtained by eating insects. Barring eating insects, it is easily supplemented or found added to various foods.

Ex. The Beri-Beri outbreak due to the lack of thiamine in white rice in the Dutch East Indies.
What about the outbreak of cancer and obesity in the Americas?

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 02:22 AM

toupeiro

October 23rd, 2008, 02:24 AM

If you want to take humor out of it, I'm omnivorous. If you want to have a sense of humor on the topic, I am a devout carnivore. Greens are good, but so are reds. Home is a good Brazilian steakhouse!

Quite frankly, I don't understand the people who are vegetarians because of the way beef is processed. The county I live in outranks the production of 20 states in agriculture. The processes used in ag aren't exactly chemical and bacteria free when I consider the equipment used and the crop dusters flying over the fields. Organic could mean cleaner produce. It could also mean your produce is more susceptible to airborne and soil-born bacteria that many human-safe pesticides are intended to fight. If you're going to make a choice not to eat meat because of how its handled, but ignore how your lettuce, carrots, and other vegetables are processed, what are you gaining?

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 02:24 AM

Um...

Not true. You'll note that the largest land animals eat plants.

What about the outbreak of cancer and obesity in the Americas?

An all vegetable diet is a higher-fat building diet than Omnivore. The E.U. eats the same diet we do, the only difference is in the Americas we eat more sweets and are more sedentary in our lifestyles. Proof (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geneffects.com%2Fvitalogy%2Fv 2-378-1.html&ei=mdL_SJu2OIK2sQPPt_GTCw&usg=AFQjCNFJBK3FXOUJmPLnD0MBFQVbNxHkpw&sig2=7-HKobtz6tuA96m50Rug8w)

And there have been not many studies to conclude that eating meat causes cancer. That is caused by all the carcinogenic preservatives in our food.

Also, many animals that eat only plants are low in nutrition. Ex. The Koala Bear. And if you note, things that are mainly herbivorous, such as the rat, require meat to keep themselves in top running condition.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 02:26 AM

Um...

The only iffy situation is vitamin B-12, which is needed in very small amounts anyway, and is easily obtained by eating insects. Barring eating insects, it is easily supplemented or found added to various foods.

The algae spirulina is a fantastic source of B12 amongst a many other nutrients.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 02:29 AM

An all vegetable diet is a higher-fat building diet than Omnivore. The E.U. eats the same diet we do, the only difference is in the Americas we eat more sweets and are more sedentary in our lifestyles. Proof (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geneffects.com%2Fvitalogy%2Fv 2-378-1.html&ei=mdL_SJu2OIK2sQPPt_GTCw&usg=AFQjCNFJBK3FXOUJmPLnD0MBFQVbNxHkpw&sig2=7-HKobtz6tuA96m50Rug8w)

And there have been not many studies to conclude that eating meat causes cancer. That is caused by all the carcinogenic preservatives in our food.

Also, many animals that eat only plants are low in nutrition. Ex. The Koala Bear. And if you note, things that are mainly herbivorous, such as the rat, require meat to keep themselves in top running condition.

You'll note I've been a vegan for years with entirely healthy long hair, healthy nails, healthy skin, and better than average fitness.

That is not proof. I was being as illogical as you. There is more to the deficiency problem than the rice issue. It is a life style issue. The reason why obesity is a problem is a life style issue. The lack of adequat nutriation in other parts of a world has to do with the totality of the circumstances, not the one food.

Live your life the way you want. It is yours. Don't try to convince me my lifestyle is wrong, when it has served me better than any other.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 02:35 AM

You'll note I've been a vegan for years with entirely healthy long hair, healthy nails, healthy skin, and better than average fitness.

That is not proof. I was being as illogical as you. There is more to the deficiency problem than the rice issue. It is a life style issue. The reason why obesity is a problem is a life style issue. The lack of adequat nutriation in other parts of a world has to do with the totality of the circumstances, not the one food.

Live your life the way you want. It is yours. Don't try to convince me my lifestyle is wrong, when it has served me better than any other.

That's only because we live in a society where food is easily obtained. Nowadays you can easily get a balanced diet of fruit & vegetables. It is nearly impossible to grow barley and wheat in some areas of the world, just like other staple crops such as tomatoes, strawberries, and rice which grow well in wet/marshy areas. I am sorry, but if you were in Neolithic times, a diet of just vegetables wouldn't cut it, you would become very, very ill within a few years. The key is balance. Show me a cow that can pass the Mirror Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mirror_test), and I will believe everything you are talking about. Btw, before you say "ZOMG WE SHOULD EAT DOGS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PASS IT!" Dogs do not have visual recognition of themselves, but they do however have an olfactory recognition of themselves. So they are infact sentient. If you cannot pass the mirror test, you are not truly sentient (Not including young animals which have not yet grasped this ability).

EDIT- Just to clarify, I meant if an animal cannot identify itself in some way, then it is not sentient. Case Closed.

y-lee

October 23rd, 2008, 02:38 AM

In fact, there is no such place on Earth where all the essential plants grow in one place, naturally.

Ex. The Beri-Beri outbreak due to the lack of thiamine in white rice in the Dutch East Indies.

That is simply not true. The only nutrient possibly deficient from plants easily found in large amounts here is B-12, which is made by microorganisms, even in meat it is my understanding that is where it comes from. And I maintain one can get plenty of that from microorganisms in natural waters and on unwashed plants and from dirt and one other source I am not even going to mention because talking about it here is sadly most likely against these forums COC. Which i haven't even mentioned eating dirt but to me it is a far better choice than animal flesh. One only needs micro-gram amounts of B-12 anyway, small enough that even the occasional accidental bug you ate might help some.

And btw anyone that eats white rice and thinks it has much food value gets what they deserve, may as well eat paper. And for the record alot of grain or grain like plants grow here, but except for a few they are labor intensive and not worth the effort.

I simply do not believe your statement, it is incorrect and goes against everything i have ever read on wilderness survival. Not to mention vegetarian nutrition. It also goes against what I myself have did. I lived off of wild plants for 2 years and had no problems, if my diet was deficient I would have showed signs of it. If you read that in a book i would consider finding something better to read.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 02:42 AM

That's only because we live in a society where food is easily obtained. Nowadays you can easily get a balanced diet of fruit & vegetables. It is nearly impossible to grow barley and wheat in some areas of the world, just like other staple crops such as tomatoes, strawberries, and rice which grow well in wet/marshy areas. I am sorry, but if you were in Neolithic times, a diet of just vegetables wouldn't cut it, you would become very, very ill within a few years. The key is balance.
So? I am not in that type of society. What was the point? Logic seems to fail on discussions like these.

If you were 6 months old, you'd likely need your mother's breasts for survival. I am not in the Neolithic period, and you are (hopefully) not 6 months old.

I am sorry, your logical is failing and I fail to see any point you are trying to make. You are basically just razzing me and other vegans for having different lifestyles which work well for us.

The key is survival. I get all the nutrients I need in my vegan diet, and I am very healthy. There is no such thing as "balance". You mean "average for our time". The body doesn't work that way. The average Inuit, South Indian, Mexican, American diet is enough to live, yet are all drastically different.

Show me a cow that can pass the Mirror Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mirror_test), and I will believe everything you are talking about.
What? That has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

Btw, before you say "ZOMG WE SHOULD EAT DOGS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PASS IT!" Dogs do not have visual recognition of themselves, but they do however have an olfactory recognition of themselves. So they are infact sentient. If you cannot pass the mirror test, you are not truly sentient (Not including young animals which have not yet grasped this ability).

So? When did I saw anything about that? Why are you harrassing us?

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 02:42 AM

Look, I am not going to continue with this debate any longer. It is pointless, we will never convince each other who's ideology concerning diet is better, we are all too stubborn.

Btw - I was not harassing you, I was pointing out SOME flaws in a vegan diet. Not saying that yours is inferior.

~Farewell.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 02:45 AM

Here is a snippet from the CSIRO (Australia's leading scientific research organisation) that found eating lots of meat causes cancer, as it provides a summary of the environmental costs of the carnivorous lifestyle.

Make sure you read the part under the photo regarding their finding that a diet high in red meat significantly increases the risk of bowel cancer:

www.animalliberation.org.au/csiro-leaflet2.pdf

geekygirl

October 23rd, 2008, 02:51 AM

The above CSIRO report 'may' be true but I seriously doubt the source website for its accuracy..Animal Liberation? That would almost be construed as rather 'one eyed'.

I eat meat, I enjoy it too much, like some people (I guess) I toyed with being a vegeterian (I love animals..but not like Animal Liberation - I wouldnt get a security clearance if I was involved with that lot...LOL) but I enjoy meat too much.

I think if someone is happy eating meat, good on em, and if you are happy eating vegetable/plant based products only, good on you :)

The ones that annoy me are those people who say they are vegetarian whilst chowing down on a chicken or fish meal!!! Sort of defeats the purpose doesnt it!

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:00 AM

Look, I am not going to continue with this debate any longer. It is pointless, we will never convince each other who's ideology concerning diet is better, we are all too stubborn.

That is just the thing. It was pointless from the beginning. I am not trying to convince anyone anything, I am defending my lifestyle, which I only do if I must. It has nothing to do with ideals, it is a fact. I'm a vegan. I live this way with no problems. I am not stubborn; I am right.

Btw - I was not harassing you, I was pointing out SOME flaws in a vegan diet. Not saying that yours is inferior.

There are less "flaws" in a vegan diet than the typical diet.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 03:09 AM

The above CSIRO report 'may' be true but I seriously doubt the source website for its accuracy..Animal Liberation? That would almost be construed as rather 'one eyed'.

So out goes the baby with the bathwater eh!? (shakes his head about the 'one eyed' statement)

I eat meat, I enjoy it too much, like some people (I guess) I toyed with being a vegeterian (I love animals..but not like Animal Liberation - I wouldnt get a security clearance if I was involved with that lot...LOL) but I enjoy meat too much.

Hmmm, Cyclops arises again.

I think if someone is happy eating meat, good on em, and if you are happy eating vegetable/plant based products only, good on you :)

Ah, that's better, two eyes now. :-)

The ones that annoy me are those people who say they are vegetarian whilst chowing down on a chicken or fish meal!!! Sort of defeats the purpose doesnt it!

They are ignorant of the definition of the word.

As far a animal lib' go, I wouldn't think that they would be foolish enough to fabricate a statement's source using the highly esteemed CSIRO, & to falsely claim that they accessed it via the use of the freedom for information act.

What they were pointing out was that the CSIRO actually lied in their highly regarded nutritional health book. Which of course would have been done at the behest of the Australian Meat Board or some such influence, in the interest of protecting the industry. Money talks political BS again.

Corfy

October 23rd, 2008, 03:28 AM

Make sure you read the part under the photo regarding their finding that a diet high in red meat significantly increases the risk of bowel cancer:

I pretty much gave up listening to cancer reports when I read an article in the early 90s that claimed that eating bananas can cause cancer. Yeah, some things I can understand (smoking, asbestos, smog, etc.), but I think most scientists are entirely too cancer happy.

And of course, you have to decide which group you want to listen to.

I remember two stories that appeared in the newspaper a couple years ago, virtually side by side. One praised the benefits of coffee, as it is rather high in antioxidants. The second story villified coffee because it had some chemical that could cause the drinker's cholesterol to go up (something about chemical inhibited the body's defense against cholesterol, not that coffee had cholesterol). I have no reason to believe that either are wrong, but which do you follow? Do you drink coffee for the antioxidants, or avoid it due to the risk of high cholesterol? (Personally, the question is moot... I hate coffee, but you get the idea.)

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 03:28 AM

I am defending my lifestyle

As was I.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:29 AM

As was I.

No one was attacking it, you were pushing it.

y-lee

October 23rd, 2008, 03:34 AM

If you were 6 months old, you'd likely need your mother's breasts for survival. I am not in the Neolithic period, and you are (hopefully) not 6 months old.

:lolflag:

I love your sense of humor LaRoza :)

And btw I think i could do fine in the Neolithic times, in the location i live now, even get fat. The only thing that would bother me is having to make string and thread out of plant fibers and then weaving that trying to make clothes. I have studied wilderness survival and I have tried to do things like that. It is labor intensive, but then again I wouldn't have the police to worry about so I could use hemp and hemp has other uses. One being the seeds are comparable to soy in protein and high in essential fatty acids. Another use being well known :) And btw I know how to make water proof boots out of birth bark that will last three months or so of heavy usage, isolated even. And I am also familiar with medicinal plants growing here which would far more important than food imho. An infection or illness could be very serious and it is a good idea to know about antibiotic plants and stuff like that.

Quote:
Show me a cow that can pass the Mirror Test, and I will believe everything you are talking about.

The mirror test has nothing to do with anything and is seriously flawed anyway. Being mostly a test designed for us under the assumption that anything that much like us is conscious and sentient and btw that assumes we are also conscious and sentient.

And actually this whole discussion which sadly is way off topic illustrates a point LaRoza made much earlier about people been offended somehow by vegetarians. I feel some people feel a need to attack us vegans and vegetarians to ease their own guilty conscious or to somehow feel superior or something :confused:

I am vegetarian and I am proud of it and I am kinda militant about it. That is when someone is up in my face about it. It is a matter of survival not just of my furred feathered and scaled cousins but of the whole of womb-man kind and of the planet as we know it itself. I make no apologies over it. I am nice sorta on these forums in the RW i certainly have been known to not always be so nice about it.

I have no more to say on this.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 03:34 AM

No one was attacking it, you were pushing it.

You & your friends here were pushing it back by saying mine causes cancer. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth isn't a good motto if you want to stay on the high road.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:36 AM

You & your friends here were pushing it back by saying mine causes cancer. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth isn't a good motto if you want to stay on the high road.

No, I was using anecdotes in response to anecdotes.

Grant A.

October 23rd, 2008, 03:37 AM

No, I was using anecdotes in response to anecdotes.

Exactly, an eye for an eye. Both of us had tunnel vision.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:38 AM

I love your sense of humor LaRoza :)

Well, technically, it was true :-)

And actually this whole discussion which sadly is way off topic illustrates a point LaRoza made much earlier about people been offended somehow by vegetarians. I feel some people feel a need to attack us vegans and vegetarians to ease their own guilty conscious or to somehow feel superior or something :confused:

+1

If we defend ourselves, we are "attacking". We should all be nice piñatas.

We have a never ending cycle of taking mockery and needing to defend ourselves, while people make assumptions about us. I am not militant at all, and I don't discuss my lifestyle unless people ask, but yet, I am still pushed.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 03:39 AM

I pretty much gave up listening to cancer reports when I read an article in the early 90s that claimed that eating bananas can cause cancer. Yeah, some things I can understand (smoking, asbestos, smog, etc.), but I think most scientists are entirely too cancer happy.

Again, we have to try to keep the baby...

And of course, you have to decide which group you want to listen to.

Just look at the first page of this google for CSIRO ?

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=on&q=CSIRO&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

I remember two stories that appeared in the newspaper a couple years ago, virtually side by side. One praised the benefits of coffee, as it is rather high in antioxidants. The second story villified coffee because it had some chemical that could cause the drinker's cholesterol to go up (something about chemical inhibited the body's defense against cholesterol, not that coffee had cholesterol). I have no reason to believe that either are wrong, but which do you follow? Do you drink coffee for the antioxidants, or avoid it due to the risk of high cholesterol? (Personally, the question is moot... I hate coffee, but you get the idea.)

Most media is biased for whatever greedy reason. The ones you just posted are obviously scientific followed by a counter claim in the interest of the coffee business.

One thing that the animal libber's were pointing out was that the CSIRO's scientific results were modified by the government (as the CSIRO is a national institution) in the interest of the big business of meat farming.

To hell with the personal suffering of their constituents, the sick time off work, the social security payments to help compensate out of work time, the costs to public health expenditure & the fact that we don't have enough beds in our hospitals to start with.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:40 AM

Exactly, an eye for an eye. Both of us had tunnel vision.

No, stop trying to drag me down...

I posted that in response to a post that was trying to prove something by a single story. It was to show how silly and illogical it was.

RiceMonster

October 23rd, 2008, 03:44 AM

And actually this whole discussion which sadly is way off topic illustrates a point LaRoza made much earlier about people been offended somehow by vegetarians. I feel some people feel a need to attack us vegans and vegetarians to ease their own guilty conscious or to somehow feel superior or something :confused:

I don't argue with vegetarians unless they start telling me not to eat meat. If you want to be a vegetarian, fine, just don't bother me about it, and I won't bother you about it. Luckily, most of the vegetarians I've encountered do not preach in my face.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 03:45 AM

I don't argue with vegetarians unless they start telling me not to eat meat. If you want to be a vegetarian, fine, just don't bother me about it, and I won't bother you about it. Luckily, most of the vegetarians I've encountered do not preach in my face.

Most don't.

However, many people feel a need to preach to use, or to mock us.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 03:49 AM

You & your friends here were pushing it back by saying mine causes cancer. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth isn't a good motto if you want to stay on the high road.

:lolflag: It is not personal, it is scientific fact.

People know that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, they still do it & pay a lot of money for what if nothing else makes them smell, leaves a smelly trail, irritates most people around them (who are non-smokers), decreases their lung capacity, weakens their heart, liver, kidney, brain, vocal folds, diminishes their circulation, for some people to the point of gangrene. All of this is scientifically known, but people still smoke.

Do you see any parallel here?

treesurf

October 23rd, 2008, 03:50 AM

Another vegetarian here, for a number of reasons.

Although, I am not fanatical about it. If someone serves me meat I will eat it. No need to waste food and cause a scene. Traveling in unfamiliar countries is very difficult sometimes if one can't be a bit flexible about diet.

However, if others feel the need to be more dogmatic about their vegetarian stance then more power to them, I say, as long as they're not preachy about it. The world can only benefit from more vegetarian tendencies.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 03:56 AM

Another vegetarian here, for a number of reasons.

Although, I am not fanatical about it. If someone serves me meat I will eat it. No need to waste food and cause a scene. Traveling in unfamiliar countries is very difficult sometimes if one can't be a bit flexible about diet.

My wife & I eat free range eggs at home, bring them & other stuff with us when we go to stay somewhere else (where practicable) & eat battery hen eggs when we must. It would be much more difficult for vegan's.

dizzy1kenobi

October 23rd, 2008, 03:59 AM

I tried meat once. It hurt like hell. Maybe I'll show you the scar sometime.

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 04:16 AM

I've been a strict vegetarian for 16 yrs now.

What I do find amusing is how sometimes (it used to happen loads more, but veges are more accepted nowdays - where I live anyway) non-vegetarians will mock you for being vege. Statements like "Mmmmm, I love meat." "Oooh, it tastes so good." And pushing steak etc in front of your face. Admittedly these people are fools, but it is an interesting and (as I see it) an overly defensive reaction on their part.

Interestingly, they generally don't do it to people who don't eat particular foods because of religious reasons.

So, my thoughts as to why people are so attacking and defensive in front of vegetarians is because they feel they are being judged morally.

Lots of vegetarians claim they are vege on moral grounds, and hence some meat eaters feel as if they are being morally judged. (if you think it is morally wrong to eat meat, then you must think that I am morally wrong to eat meat). I am not sure that people consciously recognise this, but I suspect it is the reason why so many people attack/mock veges and are so defensive about eating meat. And they only tend to do it when other meat eaters are around, as if they feel they are in the moral majority.

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 04:25 AM

PS: the most common fallacy I encounter from meat eaters when disgussing vegetariansim is "eating meat is natural and therefore morally right thing to do". i.e. our ancestors did it, haven't you heard of the food chain etc etc.

Which is a form of the "Appeal to Nature" Fallacy, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Or course, people don't react well when you tell them that they are commiting a fallacy. I also usually point out that we lived in caves, wore no cloths, violence was very common, especially towards members of other groups, practised infanticide, etc. Does that mean ought to live as we did many years ago? (I think LaRoza made a similar point before).

Denestria

October 23rd, 2008, 04:25 AM

Vegetarian++; LaRoza++; Denestria++;
Am I the only one that gets paranoid about the amount of white sugar they consume? The bleaching process for white sugar in most parts of the world uses calcium from the bones of bovines.

I try not to eat much sugar since it isn't good for you, but if I do eat something sweet I only use real sugars, no artificial/altered sugars like Splenda, aspartame (which makes me sick), acesulfame, etc, which I think are worse for you than white sugar. I stopped drinking soda about 10 years ago and now if I take a sip I don't even like it, it is too sweet and the carbonation is overwhelming. I eat very little processed/packaged food and most of my diet is whole grains, fruits and vegetables whenever possible.

NintendoTogepi

October 23rd, 2008, 04:28 AM

I'm not a vegetarian, but I aspire to be in the future...when I'm out of this house....

Corfy

October 23rd, 2008, 04:46 AM

Most media is biased for whatever greedy reason. The ones you just posted are obviously scientific followed by a counter claim in the interest of the coffee business.

Um, how do you know that the "obviously scientific" claim isn't the one in favor of antioxidants in coffee, and the other one is a claim in the interests of an anti-coffee group (maybe the soft drink industry, or tea companies)? And why can't they both be true? It isn't like coffee only has one ingredient.

Coffee contains Antioxidants:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080306112550.htm

numerous studies have shown the benefits of this drink. In particular, it is considered to be one of the best sources for antioxidants in the diet; these substances help to protect us against free radicals, which are a cause of premature aging and certain diseases. Coffee has an antioxidant capacity which is ten times higher than other drinks, such as red wine and tea, according to the researcher.

Coffee raises cholesterol
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070614162223.htm

Cafestol, a compound found in coffee, elevates cholesterol by hijacking a receptor in an intestinal pathway critical to its regulation, ... In fact, cafestol is the most potent dietary cholesterol-elevating agent known,

These aren't the articles that I read, but you will notice that these are both written and published on the same website (although at different times).

Besides, I just used this as an example because I happened to see the two articles together. There are dozens of examples that I could point to, one side showing the obvious benefits, and another side showing the obvious risks.

DoorGunner

October 23rd, 2008, 04:48 AM

I always thought vegetables were what food ate :(

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 04:57 AM

I always thought vegetables were what food ate :(

That is a common statement, however, it just shows that eating animals is essentially eating processed vegetables.

RiceMonster

October 23rd, 2008, 05:02 AM

I think he was joking around.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 05:02 AM

I think he was joking around.

The joke got old over the past couple thousand iterations.

Abras

October 23rd, 2008, 05:04 AM

mrgnash

October 23rd, 2008, 05:09 AM

the whole concept of not eating animals because you have to kill them is absurd to me me because if you are going to do it for animals than you should do it for plants. And unless you are Fruitarian than you have to kill some thing to eat, or you will die. but then you have to kill something to keep you warm, clothed, and various other things.

:lolflag: No, what is absurd is granting the same ethical status to plants and animals. Plants do not have the capacity to experience suffering; animals, particularly mammals, which are the class to which we ourselves belong, have both consciousness and nociceptors, so we can experience pain and suffering.

Besides, I just used this as an example because I happened to see the two articles together. There are dozens of examples that I could point to, one side showing the obvious benefits, and another side showing the obvious risks.

Which is why it always pays to read, and critically assess the original studies. The reason that so many, supposedly conflicting results seem to be floating around is that the media likes a sexy headline, and often turn very tentative reports into bold statements about this or that.

cardinals_fan

October 23rd, 2008, 05:10 AM

Plants do not have the capacity to experience suffering; animals, particularly mammals, which are the class to which we ourselves belong, have both consciousness and nociceptors, so we can experience pain and suffering.
Now look what you've done. My basil plant just got very depressed. Please apologize.

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 05:16 AM

the whole concept of not eating animals because you have to kill them is absurd to me me because if you are going to do it for animals than you should do it for plants. And unless you are Fruitarian than you have to kill some thing to eat, or you will die. but then you have to kill something to keep you warm, clothed, and various other things.

Ah, that old gem. Are you serious?

Some people seem to not realise that there is a morally significant difference between plants and animals, i.e. that (most) animals are sentient. Which is why we have laws forbidding the deliberate torture of animals, but not plants.

What is crazy though, is that if farm practices were judged under the same laws that you and I have to treat our pets, they would all be found guilty of the mistreatment of animals. But, most countries have exceptions in their animal welfare laws (if they have welfare laws) that apply only to farming.

dizzy1kenobi

October 23rd, 2008, 05:28 AM

I'm no vegetarian, and I've never even really considered it. I feel I fall into the "healthy enough" category and meat is just so freakin' delicious. I know I could get by on just veggies, but if I don't have to I won't. I find great pleasure in eating and thus I'm going to continue eating what I like (as long as it doesn't pose too big of a health risk, of course.)

Actually did you know that the digestive processes of stock animals, especially cows contributes greatly to greenhouse grasses which are replacing the oxygen in the air which we are supposed to breathe. It also contributes greatly to the creation of dead zones where rivers meet the ocean. Whats that doing for your health?

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 05:34 AM

Um, how do you know that the "obviously scientific" claim isn't the one in favor of antioxidants in coffee, and the other one is a claim in the interests of an anti-coffee group (maybe the soft drink industry, or tea companies)? And why can't they both be true? It isn't like coffee only has one ingredient.

Coffee contains Antioxidants:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080306112550.htm

Coffee raises cholesterol
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070614162223.htm

These aren't the articles that I read, but you will notice that these are both written and published on the same website (although at different times).

Besides, I just used this as an example because I happened to see the two articles together. There are dozens of examples that I could point to, one side showing the obvious benefits, and another side showing the obvious risks.

If you have ever drunk coffee, smoked a cigarette, had a few too many to drink, you can tell that these things are not something that enhances our health.

I didn't pay too much attention to the topics of your coffee statement, I was mostly running off my knowledge of it being unhealthy for you. Which was remiss of me.

There are positive & negative effects of so many substances & actions, it all comes down to quantity.

We can eat the seeds of an apple & it is good for our health, a little cyanide keeps the cancer at bay some say, true or not I don't know, what I do know is that if you eat an egg cup full of apple seeds you are dead.

A cup of coffee a day won't do most people much in the way of harm, though caffeine is a nephrotoxin.

Too much coffee or caffeine drink on the other hand can be most troublesome to some individuals:

http://www.caffeineweb.com/

The consumption of meat once a week is far less likely to cause bowel cancer than the consumption of three meat meals a day for decades.

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 05:41 AM

What is crazy though, is that if farm practices were judged under the same laws that you and I have to treat our pets, they would all be found guilty of the mistreatment of animals. But, most countries have exceptions in their animal welfare laws (if they have welfare laws) that apply only to farming.

Which becomes very obvious upon viewing the Earthlings documentary.

Ub1476

October 23rd, 2008, 07:43 AM

Nay, I eat meat. I think it's healthy since I'm growing up.

Saint Angeles

October 23rd, 2008, 08:03 AM

i love plants too much to eat them.

Liviu-Theodor

October 23rd, 2008, 08:31 AM

I see a lot of posts about meat. Not sure if they include also fish in the meat category. But to be a pure vegetarian involves also to not eat also eggs, milk, cheese, insects, sea fruits (or derivates). Myself I eat from time to time also meat (I like fish more), but more often derivates from milk, so I am in no way a pure vegetarian. And all posters here, at least in their baby time, surely eaten milk (at least) so I think nobody here is a pure life-long pure vegetarian (even if he or she eats today only vegetarian food).

kagashe

October 23rd, 2008, 09:02 AM

Yes.

kagashe

October 23rd, 2008, 09:03 AM

Liviu-Theodor

October 23rd, 2008, 09:08 AM

Milk ???

We are mammals, isn't it? What our mothers gave us to eat right after birth? Or you hatched from an egg? Just see: I said babies eat milk... And after all, we were babies at birth, so...

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 09:25 AM

We are mammals, isn't it? What our mothers gave us to eat right after birth? Or you hatched from an egg? Just see: I said babies eat milk... And after all, we were babies at birth, so...

One can definitely draw a distinction between eating animals and eating things that animals produce, which is what many vegetarians do. I think that you can draw a moral distinction between the two as well.

Liviu-Theodor

October 23rd, 2008, 09:58 AM

One can definitely draw a distinction between eating animals and eating things that animals produce, which is what many vegetarians do. I think that you can draw a moral distinction between the two as well.

Agree with you here. Even more as I watched some of the http://veg-tv.info/Earthlings movie. But the question in this thread is: Are you a pure vegetarian? And what you describe is a lacto-vegetarian (http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/lactovegetarian.htm) or an ovo-lacto-vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovolactovegetarian), not a pure vegetarian.

harry2006

October 23rd, 2008, 10:29 AM

i'm a pure vegitarian!!!

DrMelon

October 23rd, 2008, 10:56 AM

No way. There's nothing I like more than having a good old steak. And roast chicken, like that too. Fish is ok.
Do love my vegetables though, carrots, peas, sweetcorn...

handy

October 23rd, 2008, 11:13 AM

Agree with you here. Even more as I watched some of the http://veg-tv.info/Earthlings movie. But the question in this thread is: Are you a pure vegetarian? And what you describe is a lacto-vegetarian (http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/lactovegetarian.htm) or a an ovo-lacto-vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovolactovegetarian), not a pure vegetarian.

vegetarian

7 dictionary results for: vegetarian
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
veg·e·tar·i·an /ˌvɛdʒɪˈtɛəriən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vej-i-tair-ee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals, as eggs or cheese, but subsists on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grain, etc.

There is certainly room for interpretation of the title's meaning. There is no specific reason to take pure as meaning vegan

Pure to my mind I took the OP's meaning by pure as one who does not eat any meat products. As some people consider themselves to be a vegetarian because they don't eat red meat, or only eat fish. Which of course is false.

With or without definitions in the OP, the thread would have traveled much the same course in my opinion, & the same basic debate would have eventuated between those that do, & those that don't eat meat.

alwez_loner_TZ

October 23rd, 2008, 12:58 PM

Nop i eat all kind of meat... don't like chicken much...

Karilex

October 23rd, 2008, 01:01 PM

Starchivore i could eat chips all day

MasterNetra

October 23rd, 2008, 01:21 PM

Actually did you know that the digestive processes of stock animals, especially cows contributes greatly to greenhouse grasses which are replacing the oxygen in the air which we are supposed to breathe. It also contributes greatly to the creation of dead zones where rivers meet the ocean. Whats that doing for your health?

Did you know the gas we would produce from eating a number of plants would replace it.

Calmatory

October 23rd, 2008, 01:25 PM

Hmm, odd. "I respect life and I try not to take it away nor do I support anyone who does. Thus I am a vege". Then this guy or gal goes to walmart with his/her 3 liter turbo diesel SUV. Later the same person protests about "global warming" and that mankind is destroying the earth.

Being a a hippie makes anyone no better than others. "But but I am animal friendly and at least I do not support unjustified animal torture or killing!". But then again, the opposite won't make them or anyone else any better than veges either. I just so hate the "At least I don't support <put something evil here>!" preaching.

I eat my meat, I eat my salad and the least I couldn't care what a anarchist hippie next door thinks about me while I enjoy my meal. Process of elimination does not sound ethical, but the outcome is... delicious! :)

Actually, I feel like going to eat some bacon with cheese and fresh salad.

issih

October 23rd, 2008, 01:34 PM

God this thread got depressing.

I don't eat meat because I am very uncomfortable doing so, it makes me feel unhappy if an animal died to keep me going, when I can just as easily have eaten some plants. that is my decision, as long as you have made yours, then I have no problem with you, whatever it is.. I do seriously dislike people who eat meat but get squeamish about the while process of producing it. If you don't like that it comes from animals...don't eat it, if you are ok with it then fine.

Genetically we as humans are designed to be omnivores, that however is in no way an excuse for the diet that now prevails in the developed world.

The hunter gatherer subsisted mainly on fruits, nuts, vegetables and the occasional bit of meat on the rare occasions when the hunters got successful. Nowadays the diet is heavily skewed in favour of eating meat at every meal. something we are NOT designed to do genetically and which carries huge impacts both socially and economically and also impacts heavily on the overall health of the developed world. Logically, without ever needing to invoke 'moral' arguments, we should dramatically reduce meat production and consumption in order to increase food production, reduce waste and increase health. Far too much emphasis is put on meat in the diet, it should be a small part of what we as a species eat, and not the be all and end all it often is presented as.

One final comment, some people eat fish because a lot of fish species lack a central nervous system, and therefore the capacity to feel pain. I always thought this argument failed because the methods used to catch fish are indiscriminatory in terms of which species get killed, but that is the argument often put forward by piscetarians.

In the end, the issues surrounding food production and dietary choice in general are complex and wide ranging, and go far beyond simple morals, and expand rapidly out into all areas of life. I respect people who have thought about it, and made a decision about it backed by logical thought. If you just eat meat because your parents did then you should stop and think about it, same goes if you are veggie because your parents are. Make a decision that you believe in, not just what others would have you do...Most important of all, actually think about it, it matters, and it affects all sorts of things, most of which the new policies on no politics preclude us from getting into.

*pointlessly bangs head against wall*

MasterNetra

October 23rd, 2008, 01:44 PM

Actually Hunter Gathers in general would eat as much if not more meat. Meat will substain ya far more better then plants. But hey if you want to eat away more of our oxygen suppliers to fill up then hey why not? But i would have to recommend a balance between the two.
Ironically balance seems to be the key to almost if not everything period. Its when something is inbalanced that problems arise.

Flynn555

October 23rd, 2008, 01:51 PM

i eat wood da-na-na-na-nana -na!
no meat!
big feet!
i eat wood!

sorry i couldnt resist.

MasterNetra

October 23rd, 2008, 01:54 PM

i eat wood da-na-na-na-nana -na!
No meat!
Big feet!
I eat wood!

Sorry i couldnt resist.

xD

kaspar_silas

October 23rd, 2008, 02:03 PM

Yip.

The world's resources are pulled tight and the strain on land grows daily. One day GM and high density farms won't be enough. There will be many many more vegetarians and vegans for financial reasons alone in the coming decades.

Did you know the gas we would produce from eating a number of plants would replace it.
[talking about the gas released by animals we later eat]

Actually it would not quite replace it. Eating the plants directly is much more efficient. Plus we don't process plants the same as cows, for example, so we don't generate so much gas. Thou some people do try hard to buck this rule

1cewolf

October 23rd, 2008, 02:05 PM

I guess you could call me a part-time vegetarian.

I'm currently on an alkalizing diet to try and clear up some nagging issues and part of that is cutting way back on meat. I used to eat meat every day, sometimes multiple times a day, but now I eat a small portion of meat maybe 2-3 times total per week. I now completely abstain from beef and pork in favor of fish and poultry, mostly fish.

It's really not as bad as I thought it would be. I've lost what little fat I had left, I have more energy, and I feel noticeably healthier overall. It's been fun finding out how to prepare meals without meat since nobody else in my family knows how to do that. Of course, my folks think I'm slightly insane for avoiding everything the average American typically eats, but I think I can let that slide in lieu of the results.

I don't really care what happens to the animals I eat as long as they're not completely miserable. Reading about veal, for example, was enough to get me to stop eating the stuff.

Not trying to start a flame war here, but I believe global warming is a farce of epic proportions and I don't care what hippies, politicians, or celebrities say about it. It plays absolutely no role in deciding what I eat. I'm interested in organic & local food, recycling, sustainability and all that, but it's for reasons of personal responsibility.

Flynn555

October 23rd, 2008, 02:06 PM

i have to be honest.
i love being vegetarian...ever since i became a vegetarian i havent stoped discovering new yummy foods.
originally i converted because i wanted to loose weight, now im off my diet (lost about 30lbs) but im still vegetarian.

i <3 tofu. ;)

Don S

October 23rd, 2008, 02:17 PM

I don't eat at all.

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 03:41 PM

Not trying to start a flame war here, but I believe global warming is a farce of epic proportions and I don't care what hippies, politicians, or celebrities say about it.

Does that mean you care about what scientist say, as they are generally neither hippy, celebs, or political.

I don't care what hippies or celebrities say about it either. But I do care a) what science says about it, and b) what politicians say about it because they make the decisions that affect us.

As for a) even "global warming sceptics scientists" think the world is warming, they just don't think it is man made. But the vast majority of science does think it is man made. The scientists I have met (and one of my best mates being a physicist working in modelling the ocean currents) are pretty worried about it to be honest. (Anecdotal evidence here I know, but evidence none the less).

b) politicians unfortunately will stuff up any proposed solutions (for anything), as they tend to stuff everything up!

adamogardner

October 23rd, 2008, 03:44 PM

although I prefer the titled diet, my bicuspids prevent me from being pure vegetarian. Also my desire to have energy until the following day prevents me from foraging for leafy matter. It wasn't until we ate meat that we had the energy/time to build civilization.

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 03:45 PM

ddnev45

October 23rd, 2008, 03:53 PM

Chessmaster

October 23rd, 2008, 04:02 PM

[QUOTE=Chessmaster;6018759]Does that mean you care about what scientist say, as they are generally neither hippy, celebs, or political.

There is no shortage of political scientists -- I've worked with several. They need their grant money and will give their research the proper spin to get it.

Yes this is true, although the pervasiveness of it would be hard to gauge as I imagine that how widespread it is would depend on how different funding structures work etc.

But in terms of global warming, I do doubt that there is a world wide scientific global warming conspiracy as some people claim.

1cewolf

October 23rd, 2008, 04:05 PM

When I talk about global warming, I'm referring to the man-made global warming alleged by Al Gore and other like-minded individuals. I guess I should have made that clear.

There are many scientists who think man-made global warming is legit and there are many scientists who think man-made global warming is not. I'm not a scientist, but I am a thinker and I fall in line with the latter camp.

S0VERE1GN

October 23rd, 2008, 04:07 PM

I only eat vegetable based products(no meat or dairy involved) , and im a bodybuilder. I don't look pasty and sickly! :)

S0VERE1GN

October 23rd, 2008, 04:11 PM

Yip.

The world's resources are pulled tight and the strain on land grows daily. One day GM and high density farms won't be enough. There will be many many more vegetarians and vegans for financial reasons alone in the coming decades.

[talking about the gas released by animals we later eat]

Actually it would not quite replace it. Eating the plants directly is much more efficient. Plus we don't process plants the same as cows, for example, so we don't generate so much gas. Thou some people do try hard to buck this rule

I saw a documentary recently that stated that even with the high density farms of today, without govenment subsidies, meat would cost nearly $90/pound.

also, many beef inspectors wont eat beef
poultry insepctors wont eat chicken
seafod inspectors wont eat... well, you get the idea. :confused:

S0VERE1GN

October 23rd, 2008, 04:29 PM

Well, technically, it was true :-)

+1

If we defend ourselves, we are "attacking". We should all be nice piñatas.

We have a never ending cycle of taking mockery and needing to defend ourselves, while people make assumptions about us. I am not militant at all, and I don't discuss my lifestyle unless people ask, but yet, I am still pushed.

i know my girlfriend got SO mad when i told her i was veg.

germanix

October 23rd, 2008, 05:07 PM

Yes I am and have been for over 30 years. I am a lacto vegetarian. I do not eat meat, fish, eggs or anything containing it. I make no issue out of it. In my family I have two brothers who are also vegetarian. My two sons are vegetarian, my wife and daughter not, and neither are the rest of the family. We all live in harmony with each other, each respecting the others decision.

LaRoza

October 23rd, 2008, 05:27 PM

We are mammals, isn't it? What our mothers gave us to eat right after birth? Or you hatched from an egg? Just see: I said babies eat milk... And after all, we were babies at birth, so...

And then your logic falls apart. Cows milk is perfectly suited for calves. Calves are much bigger and grow much faster than baby humans. Basically, cows milk in its natural state is a potent weight gain formula.

Now, it is processed, so any benefit it could have it destroyed.

Be a human; not a baby cow.

Hmm, odd. "I respect life and I try not to take it away nor do I support anyone who does. Thus I am a vege". Then this guy or gal goes to walmart with his/her 3 liter turbo diesel SUV. Later the same person protests about "global warming" and that mankind is destroying the earth.

I eat my meat, I eat my salad and the least I couldn't care what a anarchist hippie next door thinks about me while I enjoy my meal. Process of elimination does not sound ethical, but the outcome is... delicious! :)

That's nice. However, this thread isn't about SUV's or anarchist hippies.

I am a Traditional Catholic, and don't have a car.

I only eat vegetable based products(no meat or dairy involved) , and im a bodybuilder. I don't look pasty and sickly! :)

Pics?

I saw a documentary recently that stated that even with the high density farms of today, without govenment subsidies, meat would cost nearly $90/pound.

also, many beef inspectors wont eat beef
poultry insepctors wont eat chicken
seafod inspectors wont eat... well, you get the idea. :confused:

Exactly.