why do we still use "window" based GUI's?

[dracule]

I was just thinking, why? Did we get it right ~20 years ago? Why hasn't anything new come along?

I mean, there has to be a better way to keep things organized, a drastically better way. Multiple desktops have helped the disorganization by getting rid of 10-20 windows stacked on top of each other, but in the end you still have windows stacked on top of each other?

Why isnt there anything new in windows management? are stacked windows the way to go?

[Flynn555]

are stacked windows the way to go?


yes

[chucky chuckaluck]

there's always tiling.

[SunnyRabbiera]

well "window" based Gui's are very easy to understand, they are a very simple and anyone could understand them.
If it aint broke dont fix it :D

[LaRoza]

well "window" based Gui's are very easy to understand, they are a very simple and anyone could understand them.
If it aint broke dont fix it :D

Well, in the beginning there was tiling. That worked. Still does. But it was replaced.

It is much more intuative.

@OP Look at xmonad and wmii.

[click4851]

what about something like project lookingglass?

[SunnyRabbiera]

well its possible in the future windows will actually become a series of tabs.
With tabbing becoming a popular trend it may be the next phase of the main interface of the OS.

[-grubby]

Well, in the beginning there was tiling. That worked. Still does. But it was replaced.

It is much more intuative.

@OP Look at xmonad and wmii.

Ms originally did that with Windows 1.0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_1.0), avoiding a lawsuit with Apple. In Windows 2 this was changed though.

I second the nomination of wmii!

[SunnyRabbiera]

what about something like project lookingglass?

Technically though its still a window based GUI

[nlinecomputers]

I was just thinking, why? Did we get it right ~20 years ago? Why hasn't anything new come along?

I mean, there has to be a better way to keep things organized, a drastically better way. Multiple desktops have helped the disorganization by getting rid of 10-20 windows stacked on top of each other, but in the end you still have windows stacked on top of each other?

Why isnt there anything new in windows management? are stacked windows the way to go?

As opposed to what? You are viewing items on a 2 dimensional scale like pieces of paper. How else can you deal with this?

[dracule]

I was thinking more along the lines of a tiled window manager, spread across multiple desktops. Or just have the tiling ability built in, so when i want to tile two windows, i can just do something like super-t click the windows, and they are bound together, and tiled properly.

[LaRoza]

As opposed to what? You are viewing items on a 2 dimensional scale like pieces of paper. How else can you deal with this?

Tell me, when do you find it convenient to have paper you are reading under another sheet?

The tags of wmii and xmonad (and the like) are much more usable than the constant reshuffling, dragging, click, and resizing most 'modern' GUI's make you do.

[-grubby]

I was thinking more along the lines of a tiled window manager, spread across multiple desktops.

Sounds like Wmii to me

[dracule]

Sounds like Wmii to me
Im going to try it out once i get home.



I mean, most of the time you window is fullscreen when you are browsing the web, working in photoshop, or writing a paper, which is what the majority of the population does on their computers.

What is the point of having all those windows underneath your fullscreen window? you dont see them, you cant easily switch to them. most of the time you just forget about them.

[rax_m]

I mean, most of the time you window is fullscreen when you are browsing the web, working in photoshop, or writing a paper, which is what the majority of the population does on their computers.


No it isn't. ;)

I find with widescreen LCDs for example you can have windows open without having max everything. In fact I really dislike maximised windows.

[Depressed Man]

I see tiling useful in few situations. For example, when writing a paper and I have a research journal open. This comes at a sacrifice of screen space. But in most situations, I would imagine having a full screen is better while other windows/objects take a backseat due to screen limitations.

[TBOL3]

No it isn't. ;)

I find with widescreen LCDs for example you can have windows open without having max everything. In fact I really dislike maximised windows.

You may not like it, but most everybody does. I rarely, if ever, see anyone actually leave a window in non-full screen mode, when they have a choice.

[cardinals_fan]

I was thinking more along the lines of a tiled window manager, spread across multiple desktops. Or just have the tiling ability built in, so when i want to tile two windows, i can just do something like super-t click the windows, and they are bound together, and tiled properly.
Then use a tiling window manager. I like dwm :)

[hessiess]

CLI anyone?

[toupeiro]

I foresee that at sometime in the future, GUI's will be in some form of a mindmap, integrating search technology and data classification in order to produce what you want.

There are some videos of the Perspective Pixel that have portions that reflect what I am talking about.

[klange]

My colleagues and I like to think that you're not working in a 2d, flat environment (http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5ODz3MNd6s), but maybe that's just us.

[cardinals_fan]

My colleagues and I like to think that you're not working in a 2d, flat environment (http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5ODz3MNd6s), but maybe that's just us.
Now I'm dizzy :)

[joninkrakow]

You may not like it, but most everybody does. I rarely, if ever, see anyone actually leave a window in non-full screen mode, when they have a choice.

That's a Window-user habit. Mac users tend to not go full-screen. As I think about it, I wonder if it has something to do with menus. The Mac has a unified menu at the top of the screen, rather than tying the menu to the document's window. This means that the menus are always at the top of the screen, easy to hit with a quick flick of the mouse. In Windows, the only way to sort of emulate that is to go full-screen.

Oddly, even on my tiny 1025x600 screen on the Wind, I _still_ don't do full screen. I have a bit of a habit for how I like my windows arranged, and use that. I like seeing the edges of the programs I'm switching between, and like to see the desktop behind everything. Granted, it's a bit crowded on my Wind, but I still want to see it.

As to a tiling manager, I can see it in some cases, in particular with programming, but in working with text documents or other items, I would rather see the document in its glory than in a tiny square in a tiled space. There are multiple ways to navigate between windows, so that is hardly a worry, IMO.

But if you think about it, you don't often lay out all the pages of a printed document on your desk, side by side, but stack them up on top of each other. A book is a bound stack of pages (windows). The stacked window metaphor is rather common because it's useful when space is limited. (and the more "windows" and the less space, the more useful it becomes)

-Jon

[LaRoza]

No it isn't. ;)

I find with widescreen LCDs for example you can have windows open without having max everything. In fact I really dislike maximised windows.

Perhaps because they cover up other windows when maximised.

In a tiling WM, the perpetual state of being maximised is not a hinderance and makes use of your monitor very effectively. There is no reason why a window should be below another. Either I am using the window, and it would be stupid to cover it, or I am not using it, in which case, I don't need to see it (it would be closed or on another tag).


I see tiling useful in few situations. For example, when writing a paper and I have a research journal open. This comes at a sacrifice of screen space. But in most situations, I would imagine having a full screen is better while other windows/objects take a backseat due to screen limitations.

You can change it to float mode if you must. I can only see a few situations when non tiling would be useful, and that is because of design faults of some apps.

[cardinals_fan]

As to a tiling manager, I can see it in some cases, in particular with programming, but in working with text documents or other items, I would rather see the document in its glory than in a tiny square in a tiled space. There are multiple ways to navigate between windows, so that is hardly a worry, IMO.

I find a tiling WM useful simply because I never have more than two windows open on any given workspace. I keep my windows fullscreen (the lack of window borders maximizes space usage) and use all nine of my workspaces.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Im going to try it out once i get home.



I mean, most of the time you window is fullscreen when you are browsing the web, working in photoshop, or writing a paper, which is what the majority of the population does on their computers.

What is the point of having all those windows underneath your fullscreen window? you dont see them, you cant easily switch to them. most of the time you just forget about them.
If one makes a window fullscreen then its their own fault they cant see the windows under the open app. Its not difficult to stack windows by hand so you can see more than one.
And if i have a window under firefox i can get to it easily enough. I can either go to the dock/taskbar and click on it. how is that not easy? Seeing them in the dock/taskbar also reminds me that they exist. I've never been surprised that something was open on my computer.

[markp1989]

My colleagues and I like to think that you're not working in a 2d, flat environment (http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5ODz3MNd6s), but maybe that's just us.

:O thats way cool! how do i add that to compiz?

[klange]

:O thats way cool! how do i add that to compiz?

Get a v4l-compatible camera, a recent version of Compiz, OpenCV from CVS (not from the Ubuntu repos), and then pull from our git repo (http://gitweb.compiz-fusion.org/?p=users/klange/headtracking;a=summary).

I myself don't even have a camera that works yet.


Anyway, I use almost everything in full screen because I'm usually not looking at two things at once. My primary method of switching windows is three different Scale activators in the corners of my screen: One for all workspaces, the current workspace, and the current app. I find it's the most efficient use of my screen space.

[pp.]

Give me a display of the size of the top of my office desk at a resolution of about 1200 dpi and I'm ready to negotiate GUI paradigms.

[dracule]

If one makes a window fullscreen then its their own fault they cant see the windows under the open app. Its not difficult to stack windows by hand so you can see more than one.

But that limits what you can see. it also makes it more distracting by putting more info on the screen then is needed. (e.g. i just dont see the page i am writing, i see the page i am writing, icons from my desktop, my wallpaper, and windows behind the window i am working on) that is why most people work on stuff full screen. working full screen also limits the possibility that you click off your window and lose focus.

sometimes a dock just doesnt cut it, especially when faults in the program make the titles of the windows ambiguous to what they contain.

[Polygon]

Well, in the beginning there was tiling. That worked. Still does. But it was replaced.

It is much more intuative.

@OP Look at xmonad and wmii.

in your opinion.

[razerbug]

I think it's like democracy, we still use it 'cause, while it's not perfect, all the other alternatives fell on their ***...

[richg]

Because it works, ok, most of the time.
Just like the internal combustion engine for motor vehicles, it works, most of the time.

Rich

[Anzan]

Fluxbox lets you group windows from any application together as tabs that you can just flip through with keyboard shortcuts.

By organizing workspaces into, for example, web/email, terminal running htop, file manager (Nautilus --no-desktop), graphics, word processing, and scratchpad for occasional apps, I can just set up what I want and leave it that way and never change the windows (except for killing Firefox and restarting it).

It's been 51d 10h 44m so far.

[t0p]

Because we still deal in a 2-dimensional display environment, we have stuck with windows. At some point, the human-computer interface is going to change in a big way - perhaps the display will be shunted into the user's mind - and the 2-dimensional windows model will no longer be appropriate. But as long as we're looking at a screen of some sort, we'll want the windows.

[MasterNetra]

Why can't we use doors? I mean why still just look? :P

[andras artois]

if everyone had bigger screens and a touchscreen interface then tiled would be far better, sadly we're limited to our 20+ inch screems (if you're lucky) so a windowed system with tabs works a lot better.

[LaRoza]

in your opinion.

Actually, it isn't.

I don't believe any WM is more intuitive. All interfaces are learned, and if one learns one scheme well enough, it is easy to be blind to the fact it is learned.

[paul101]

Actually, it isn't.

I don't believe any WM is more intuitive. All interfaces are learned, and if one learns one scheme well enough, it is easy to be blind to the fact it is learned.

learning is the hard part (for most people)

[klange]

Just thought I'd pop in one last time and say that Compiz can be a tiling window manager if you use the right plugins. I'll link when I get the chance.

[solitaire]

"Windows" format is easy to use and understand, What other type of interface is there?

(I've installed Wmii but not tried it yet!)

Would a "Screen" based Interface be any different? Linux users have access to multiple screens (desktops) have each one provide a specific function (Root, systems, Internet, Office, Games).

But it's all basically "windows" based interface.

Fully Tabbed interface sounds interesting but i think it would be a nightmare on the smaller screens.
But IANAD (I am not a designer) but i'm willing to try any different system once... :D

[LaRoza]

"Windows" format is easy to use and understand, What other type of interface is there?

See, that is what I mean. You were raised with that scheme and can't imagine anything else.

[solitaire]

See, that is what I mean. You were raised with that scheme and can't imagine anything else.

I know!

That that's why i phrased it as a question.

"What other types 'are' there?" (Ok! Typo should have been "ARE" not "IS" my mistake!!)

I was looking for input.

AS I said I'm open to trying anything once ;)

[LaRoza]

I know!

The OP's description was a bit inaccurate, it is "floating windows", not the windows themselves.

Try wmii for a tiling window manager.


AS I said I'm open to trying anything once ;)
Anything?

Hmm...

[solitaire]

Anything?

Hmm...


yup...

notice the wink ;)

*note*

Had a very quick try of Wmii but since my blood alcohol level is well over the limit for driving anything, I'll wait till I'm sober before driving this new environment... :D:D

[LaRoza]

Had a very quick try of Wmii but since my blood alcohol level is well over the limit for driving anything, I'll wait till I'm sober before driving this new environment... :D:D

That would be for the best :-)

Compiz with its wobbly windows must be funny whilst drunk (I have never drank)

[solitaire]

we're defiantly opposites, you got Compwiz I don't (laptop to old to run it :( ) you're smart (non drinking) i'm not (I'm Scottish we drink) :D:D

[cardinals_fan]

Just thought I'd pop in one last time and say that Compiz can be a tiling window manager if you use the right plugins. I'll link when I get the chance.
Really? I know that there's a tile plugin, but is it actually something that you could enable to run by default?

[klange]

Really? I know that there's a tile plugin, but is it actually something that you could enable to run by default?

There's a new plugin called "Grid" you may be interested in. It's not nearly as functional as your hardened tiling managers, and I'm not sure how it operates normally, but it's getting there. Read here (http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/showthread.php?t=8821).

[chucky chuckaluck]

It's not nearly as functional as your hardened tiling managers,

"who needs toilet paper? just use a pine cone, ya sissy!"

[zmjjmz]

Get a v4l-compatible camera, a recent version of Compiz, OpenCV from CVS (not from the Ubuntu repos), and then pull from our git repo (http://gitweb.compiz-fusion.org/?p=users/klange/headtracking;a=summary).

I myself don't even have a camera that works yet.


Wait, did you get rid of the Wiimote?
Because it was a PITA to set that up.

[dracule]

Wait, did you get rid of the Wiimote?
Because it was a PITA to set that up.

that would be VERY interesting

[tdrusk]

My small screen almost forces me to go full screen. I just alt+tab my way around.

[pp.]

Microsoft's experiment to use a 3D representation of a living room instead of a desk top was an underwhelming success. Bob, anyone?

[roycebarber.com]

I love it when people ask about the future! Future OS design is one of my passions! :D
The current "multi-touch" computers feature zooming in and out of a giant coark board. So your life becomes a flow chart of sorts. I would encourage you to study the many kinds of charts. Flow charts, mind maps, tag spheres, file trees, etc. I'm sure you can mix and match until you find something amazing, then draw it on paper. Just for fun, pop a little Ubuntu logo in there somewhere. ;)

There are numerious websites where you can upload drawings and graphics of what you would like the next big OS to feature. Ubuntu has one of those somewhere.

Personally, I have a collection of well over a thousand digital images of flow charts. I collect them from photo sharing websites like flickr and deviantart. I also try to pay special attention to concept charting, os concepts, and everything that Google Labs works on.

I don't know of any super-os's out there right now... Ubuntu is the best you'll get. The good thing about Linux, though, is you can impliment your own graphical interface on top of the kernal.

You might like to look at Google's cell phone OS, called Android. Ubuntu also has a custom interface for small internet devices.

Three programs I would love to see on Ubuntu...
* 1. A natural sounding TTS (text to speech) program.
* 2. A really diverse "chat a.i." program, integrating automation scripts. This way I could tell the chat bot what to do, instead of figuring out technical manuals. What I mean by "tell", is either type in natural text, or even vocally say it.
* 3. I hope to see some really great new FlowCharting abilities in OpenOffice, that would enable me to have a zoomable flow chart on my desktop. So I could have all my files/apointments/bookmarks/goals/etc...and auto-synchronised on any Ubuntu PC I choose to use.

Well..I hope I gave you and the community a few ideas... I didn't really answer much about current technologies other than the multi-touch pc tables, but there isn't much out there that can beat the speed and productivity of the current Ubuntu GUI.

I think the issue is a lack of math professors on this earth, and people not speaking up about their ideas.

[klange]

Wait, did you get rid of the Wiimote?
Because it was a PITA to set that up.

Code for using the Wiimote is still there, but as the Wiimote plugin no longer supports the Wiitrack plugin, and someone else came in and hacked in OpenCV (read: webcam) tracking, we made a new, more universal, plugin. By default, everything for the Wiimote is commented out so you don't have to have CWiiD (just the much harder to obtain OpenCV from CVS...). Webcam head tracking is a bit more CPU intensive, but it's also way more "awesome" in that you just take a typical laptop with a built-in webcam and you're done. No strings attached.

As I said in my previous post, I have yet to get my own webcam for it - I'm looking at the Logitech QuickCam Pro 9000 for its great specs, which should provide accurate tracking.

If discussion on head tracking in Compiz goes any further, I'll start up a separate topic for it.

[Canis familiaris]

Well, in the beginning there was tiling. That worked. Still does. But it was replaced.

It is much more intuative.

@OP Look at xmonad and wmii.

Is there a How To on setting up a Tiling WM like xmonad or wmii in Ubuntu. I dunno why can' figure it out.
BTW would a 19" widescreen monitor be big enough for tiling?

[zmjjmz]

Code for using the Wiimote is still there, but as the Wiimote plugin no longer supports the Wiitrack plugin, and someone else came in and hacked in OpenCV (read: webcam) tracking, we made a new, more universal, plugin. By default, everything for the Wiimote is commented out so you don't have to have CWiiD (just the much harder to obtain OpenCV from CVS...). Webcam head tracking is a bit more CPU intensive, but it's also way more "awesome" in that you just take a typical laptop with a built-in webcam and you're done. No strings attached.
So it's object tracking? Nice. I always thought the whole Wii-sensor-bar-on head thing was a bit weird looking. Also, the Wiki page on OpenCV says that it works well if there's an Intel Integrated Preformance Primitives thingy on the chip, so it should be optimized to work with the Intel GMA950? (not expecting you to know actually).


If discussion on head tracking in Compiz goes any further, I'll start up a separate topic for it.
Please do, the whole community should know of this. Will it be available in Intrepid's version of Compiz, or will we still need to upgrade?

[cardinals_fan]

Is there a How To on setting up a Tiling WM like xmonad or wmii in Ubuntu. I dunno why can' figure it out.
BTW would a 19" widescreen monitor be big enough for tiling?
I know there's a howto for Awesome somewhere. I personally recommend dwm - it's simple, and it does exactly what I want by default. Just download it from here (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm/) and compile it (don't worry, there aren't a lot of dependencies :)).

Any size screen can work with a tiling WM. I have a 19 inch fullscreen, but I would still use dwm on a 7 inch widescreen or a 32 inch fullscreen :)

EDIT: If you want some info, urukrama wrote a post about Awesome here (http://urukrama.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/first-steps-with-awesome-window-manager/). If you go the dwm route, just make a thread and PM me the location if you have any problems.

[hessiess]

I know there's a howto for Awesome somewhere. I personally recommend dwm - it's simple, and it does exactly what I want by default. Just download it from here (http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm/) and compile it (don't worry, there aren't a lot of dependencies :)).

Any size screen can work with a tiling WM. I have a 19 inch fullscreen, but I would still use dwm on a 7 inch widescreen or a 32 inch fullscreen :)

EDIT: If you want some info, urukrama wrote a post about Awesome here (http://urukrama.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/first-steps-with-awesome-window-manager/). If you go the dwm route, just make a thread and PM me the location if you have any problems.

+1, DWM is a good window manager, only problem ive found with it is the source code contains rather a lot of badly-named global variables, so is hard to understand.

Currently im using Awesome, mainly because its easier to configure.

[LaRoza]

Is there a How To on setting up a Tiling WM like xmonad or wmii in Ubuntu. I dunno why can' figure it out.
BTW would a 19" widescreen monitor be big enough for tiling?



sudo aptitude install wmii dmenu


(Accept to install everything).

When you log out, wmii will be under Options->Sessions.

When you first run it, you will get a guide.

A tiling window manager works for all sizes. It is the best for small screens (because it wastes no space) and can make the best use of large monitors.

[useright]

Hi,
How to start a new thread and post a question on the ubuntu forums? I cann't find a the 'start a new thread' button on the forum page.

thanks ahead
(I borrowed this place for posting this question,... )

[cardinals_fan]

+1, DWM is a good window manager, only problem ive found with it is the source code contains rather a lot of badly-named global variables, so is hard to understand.

Currently im using Awesome, mainly because its easier to configure.
Normally, I might hold dwm's only-configurable-through-the-source mentality against it, but since I love all the defaults, there's no problem for me :)

[useright]

Hi,
How to start a new thread and post a question on the ubuntu forums? I cann't find a the 'start a new thread' button on the forum page.

thanks ahead
(I borrowed this place for posting this question,... )

[LaRoza]

Hi,
How to start a new thread and post a question on the ubuntu forums? I cann't find a the 'start a new thread' button on the forum page.

thanks ahead
(I borrowed this place for posting this question,... )

See the "Guide to Forum Features" in my sig.

[Paqman]

Did we get it right ~20 years ago?

Certainly seems that way. 20 years isn't such a long time for a good idea to be around, though.

[cardinals_fan]

Hi,
How to start a new thread and post a question on the ubuntu forums? I cann't find a the 'start a new thread' button on the forum page.

thanks ahead
(I borrowed this place for posting this question,... )
Go to Absolute Beginner Talk (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326) (I'm assuming that's what you want) and click "New Thread" in the upper left corner. Please signify once you've figured it out, so that the mods can remove these posts from this thread.

[-grubby]

Certainly seems that way. 20 years isn't such a long time for a good idea to be around, though.

It is in the computer world

[LaRoza]

It is in the computer world

And to you...

Actually, to me too. 20 is a very long time.

[Paqman]

It is in the computer world

Sure, but the interface is for the benefit of the human, not the machine. And we haven't changed in 20,000 years.

[LaRoza]

Sure, but the interface is for the benefit of the human, not the machine. And we haven't changed in 20,000 years.

Before that, they only used x86 CPU's right?

[dracule]

Sure, but the interface is for the benefit of the human, not the machine. And we haven't changed in 20,000 years.

by that logic we should have never moved from CLI since we didnt change.