Space - we are asking to be enslaved!

[earthpigg]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7660449.stm


Messages have been sent to a planet 20 light years from Earth in the hope they will reach intelligent alien life.

Some 501 photos, drawings and text messages were transmitted on Thursday by a giant radio-telescope in Ukraine normally used to track asteroids.

The target planet was chosen as it is thought capable of supporting life.

This is dumb.

sending messages to other planets is among the dumbest ideas ever conceived.

our universe is not the one featured in star trek. we will not be technologically/biologically within a few decades of each other.

either we will be millions of years ahead, or they will be millions of years ahead.

to put that in perspective, we are only 50k years more advanced than Neanderthal.

this will not be like a human interacting with a monkey.

it will be God interacting with a housefly.

~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.

Humanity's focus should be listening and acting - not speaking and reacting.

SETI is good.

sending dumb radio messages is bad.

sending probes that contain valuable information on us is dumb.

sending probes that contain MIS-information on us is something i would support.

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.

[Pogeymanz]

I wouldn't support killing the new race, should it be discovered, but I do pretty much agree with you in all other respects.

[NintendoTogepi]

Aliens don't exist.

Earth is alone in the universe.

[Sporkman]

I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords, and pledge to assist them with administering their new conquest in any way I can.

[andras artois]

Dumb idea.

I KNOW LET'S DRAW ATTENTION TO THE, MORE OR LESS, DEFENCELESS PLANET IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM WITH NO IDEA OF WHAT TO EXPECT FROM ALIEN LIFE FORMS.

surprisingly aliens most probably won't be likr humsnd, thy won't want to exchyange information. If they are the right kidn they will enslave even though presuming they are thast envanced then they won't actually have any use for us other thn to run a tread mill till we die without food.

******* clueless, shooting yoruself in the foot.

Drank to much, don't take naythuing i say to serioius : >

[earthpigg]

I wouldn't support killing the new race, should it be discovered, but I do pretty much agree with you in all other respects.

if it is more convenient to merely enslave them (see: Bovine, etc) then so be it.

we (and they) will always measure things like 'intelligence' and 'self aware' against ourselves (or their selves), so the issue of moral justification is completely irrelevant --

the distance in brain power, awareness, etc, between us and a cow will probably be the same as between us and the aliens (no way to predict who will be the new 'cow' and who will be the new 'us', naturally)

[jimi_hendrix]

we should all read the book "Sphere" by Micheal Crichton...then continue this talk

it will show you that the chances of the aliens that exist on the planet (assuming they exist) will probably not even have the same senses as us

and if they do....live long and prosper

[zmjjmz]

we should all read the book "Sphere" by Micheal Crichton...then continue this talk

it will show you that the chances of the aliens that exist on the planet (assuming they exist) will probably not even have the same senses as us

and if they do....live long and prosper

You're forgetting convergent evolution.
If an alien species were to exist, there's a good chance it would of developed under the same or similar conditions as us, which would promote similar hox genes or genetic structure.
Now, if they were to live under quite different conditions, then not only would they be inconceivably different, but there would be no incentive for a higher species to enslave us for any organic matter, because they would be unable to digest it.

[cookieofdoom]

if it is more convenient to merely enslave them (see: Bovine, etc) then so be it.

we (and they) will always measure things like 'intelligence' and 'self aware' against ourselves (or their selves), so the issue of moral justification is completely irrelevant --

the distance in brain power, awareness, etc, between us and a cow will probably be the same as between us and the aliens (no way to predict who will be the new 'cow' and who will be the new 'us', naturally)

Well, if we are the new cow... shouldn't we just accept natural selection? I mean, if everything just evolved that makes us nothing more than the next step up from a monkey. Our concept of sanctity of life, and slavery being wrong is just our way of preserving our species. If the new guys come along and they're bigger, smarter, better, and they want to enslave us, shouldn't we just let them? It's not really dumb, when you think about it. It's just us being us, which happens to be dumb. Kinda like sheep are dumb.

Since I'm a Christian I don't believe in aliens (at least not ones cleverer than us). I also don't believe in evolution. I'm just thinking, though, that following the line of logic you've put forward, it's really not a big deal if they decide to enslave us. To them we really are just cows.

[Murrquan]

1. Aliens won't see us as animals. There's a difference of kind between sentient beings and animals, not just a difference of degree. And even if they did see us as animals, our own science proves that animals have feelings and can experience pain. Why wouldn't they understand the same about us?

2. We have literally no idea what to expect from alien life. For all we know, they're out there waiting to help us, and just don't know we exist because we're out here on this distant star a zillion light-years away from the core.

3. The fact that we're having this discussion proves that we are dangerous. Think about it. We're scared of alien lifeforms because we're assuming they'd act just like we would when we discover a society of primitives. Just like we historically have, in fact. And we're scared that they'd see us as animals because of the way we treat ours.

We live on a planet where the strong dominate and take advantage of the weak. And when we go out into space we start to get paranoid, because we realize that whatever is out there is going to be a lot stronger than we are, and we know what we'd do if we were in its position.

I'm not afraid for us. I'm afraid for whatever we run into (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_Of_Man).

[jimi_hendrix]

1. Aliens won't see us as animals. There's a difference of kind between sentient beings and animals, not just a difference of degree.

2. We have literally no idea what to expect from alien life. For all we know, they're out there waiting to help us, and just don't know we exist because we're out here on this distant star a zillion light-years away from the core.

3. The fact that we're having this discussion proves that we are dangerous. Think about it. We're scared of alien lifeforms because we're assuming they'd act just like we would when they discover a primitive world. Just like we historically have, in fact. We live on a planet where the strong dominate and take advantage of the weak. And when we go out into space we start to get paranoid, because we realize that whatever is out there is going to be a lot stronger than we are, and we know what we'd do if we were in its position.

I'm not afraid for us, I'm afraid for whatever we run into.

+1

live long and prosper

[Sporkman]

BTW, I used to live in California, there were tons of them there.

[S0VERE1GN]

John McCain is an alien.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Aliens don't exist.

Earth is alone in the universe.
Well why have one planet out of trillions be populated with so called "intelligent" life.

[cardinals_fan]

If they send the wrong message, all the little green men will come and blast us with their laser beams :)

[SunnyRabbiera]

If they send the wrong message, all the little green men will come and blast us with their laser beams :)

No actually aliens are colored chartreuse :D

[myusername]

Since I'm a Christian I don't believe in aliens (at least not ones cleverer than us)

there is nothing in the bible that says aliens dont exist. why do you think God would make other planets? unless it was to distract us... haha

[lykwydchykyn]

Quite honestly, if you sit up worrying about this at night, you should also be worried about being struck by lightning or experiencing spontaneous combustion. Do you not realize:
- the amazing improbability of life on any planet, particularly if you subscribe to the idea that it all happened by a random dose of radiation hitting a random batch of cosmic goo.
- the amazing distances these waves must travel to reach ANY planets, much less ones even capable of life (nearest known planet: 10.5 LY. Gas giant, btw)
- the rather patheticly miniscule amount of the universe being canvassed by these broadcasts
- the extreme unlikelihood of these signals being noticed, or traced back, or understood?
- the extreme unlikelihood of anyone figuring out how to travel at anything approaching light speed, much less overcoming that hard limit.

Point being, is it possible that there are hostile aliens with godlike technology sitting at the star next door who somehow have missed us all these years and are looking for a nice wet planet to conquer? Maybe, but I'd be more worried about a chunk of ice falling off a jetliner and crashing into my head while I sleep.

Let SETI have their little fun.

[myusername]

you should also be worried about being struck by lightning or experiencing spontaneous combustion.

i do...sometimes i get so scared i cry myself to sleep

[frankleeee]

RF waves have been broadcast from earth since they started being sent around the world. If some other civilization has the ability to receive them they already have if they are close enough.

[the yawner]

Humanity's focus should be listening and acting - not speaking and reacting.

SETI is good.

sending dumb radio messages is bad.

sending probes that contain valuable information on us is dumb.

sending probes that contain MIS-information on us is something i would support.

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.

Your assumption would be correct if:
- The human civilization is established as the youngest and most primitive civilization in the whole universe, ripe for the more advanced civilizations to pick.

- Interstellar travel is an actual reality.

=====

But what if we're actually trying to listen to a more primitive civilization? Or perhaps one that has recently discovered that they can listen to the stars. What if our very attempts to communicate would inspire these civilizations to try and talk back to us?

[MasterNetra]

I don't know why you folks are all upset for last i checked we have been know to possibly a number of races for a long time. If anything we are a scientific curiousity and it seems according to one ancient account at least there was a alien race (ship really) that might of been defending our world from a differant one...of course the two may of just been at war but i digress. It was some old ancient religious thing from India but meh either way i've heard a number of things that suggest alien activity isn't a new thing.

And its been more recently discovered that our radio messages disperse into static not too far outside our solar system so radio waves not practical :P Seti is a waste of time and money i mean the aliens would need to be inside our star system to get anything.

[Luke has no name]

Your name fits you, earthpigg.

[earthpigg]

Quite honestly, if you sit up worrying about this at night, you should also be worried about being struck by lightning or experiencing spontaneous combustion.

i am worried about being struck by lightning to the extent that i can influence it. ie: i dont think its a good idea to stand on a roof during a lightning storm any more than...


- the extreme unlikelihood of these signals being noticed, or traced back, or understood?

.... going out of our way to give them potentially valuable information about us. random noise, i agree, it will be very difficult for them to understand. but our best minds are currently trying to make the information we send about ourselves as easy to understand as possible.


- the extreme unlikelihood of anyone figuring out how to travel at anything approaching light speed, much less overcoming that hard limit.

who said the enemy would have to overcome the speed of light? if their life span is 1,000 earth years, interstellar travel suddenly looks a lot different. even barring that, plenty of species here on earth can hibernate for decades on end without any technology.

most sci-fi uses massive technology to overcome basic human deficiencies. we gotta stop thinking like that and assuming they are like us :)



Point being, is it possible that there are hostile aliens with godlike technology sitting at the star next door who somehow have missed us all these years and are looking for a nice wet planet to conquer? Maybe, but I'd be more worried about a chunk of ice falling off a jetliner and crashing into my head while I sleep.

no doubt - i am not picketing the NASA building or anything silly like that. we have bigger problems here on earth. but, still interesting to talk about. :)


If an alien species were to exist, there's a good chance it would of developed under the same or similar conditions as us, which would promote similar hox genes or genetic structure.
Now, if they were to live under quite different conditions, then not only would they be inconceivably different, but there would be no incentive for a higher species to enslave us for any organic matter, because they would be unable to digest it.

unless they even start to understand how we work and think - my OP in this thread, for example. what alien, if able, would not come to the conclusion that the safest course of action is to destroy us as a species? the logic, from their POV would be 'if we have the engineering, technology, and biology to kill them... in the future, they may as well. the safest course of action to preserve our own species is simply to kill them out of hand. look at that crazy earthpigg guy over at UF! what if someone like him comes to power when the species is sufficiently advanced to pose a threat?!'

see what this poster said:


3. The fact that we're having this discussion proves that we are dangerous. Think about it. We're scared of alien lifeforms because we're assuming they'd act just like we would when we discover a society of primitives. Just like we historically have, in fact. And we're scared that they'd see us as animals because of the way we treat ours.

We live on a planet where the strong dominate and take advantage of the weak. And when we go out into space we start to get paranoid, because we realize that whatever is out there is going to be a lot stronger than we are, and we know what we'd do if we were in its position.

I'm not afraid for us. I'm afraid for whatever we run into. (link to galactic empire in warhammer 40k here)

i would also point out this awesome book. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright:_The_Book_of_Man)


1. Aliens won't see us as animals. There's a difference of kind between sentient beings and animals, not just a difference of degree. And even if they did see us as animals, our own science proves that animals have feelings and can experience pain. Why wouldn't they understand the same about us?

who is to say that, even if they did, they would care any more for us than we (as a society) care about the arguably sentient monkeys we casually do medical experiments on - Chimp 'A' gets born into a science lab, and thus has his brain poked at until he dies. Chimp 'B' gets born into a zoo or nature reserve and is thus taught sign language or maybe serves drinks at a japanese restaurant. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DBuFgt_Ug)

[EdThaSlayer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7660449.stm

it will be God interacting with a housefly.

Love the way you described it! :)



~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.


once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.

I wouldn't mind sending a huge military force, hey, wait, did you say military? That would mean a huge boost in space technology if we actually were at war with another space species!(look at all the technology world war 2 brought us).

Also, just imagine the types of soldiers we would need to defeat these aliens if they are really tough! *thinks about the huge genetically engineered soldiers from Warhammer 40k*

[AnonCat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7660449.stm

~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.



I doubt if a civilization millions or even hundreds of years ahead of us technologically would need slaves since they'd likely already have artificial intelligence sufficiently developed to their liking (they'd probably be an AI species themselves that long surpasses their biological creators.) I think the more likely scenario is that such a civilization would merely observe us like a biologist would a colony of ants or simply ignore us.

[earthpigg]

I think the more likely scenario is that such a civilization would merely observe us like a biologist would a colony of ants or simply ignore us.

biologists aren't the only ones that observe and play with critters.

see attached. everything we have seen tells us that the smarter a species gets, the more likely are to enjoy playing around with other things.

well fed dogs and cats playing with their prey (the prey they dont need), kids tearing the wings off of flies, the fact that you may have a 'pet' of another species.

[Xzallion]

Fear of the unknown often causes ones to act harshly, resulting in the loss of any chance at establishing contact and proceeding with observation and understanding. How can we seek peace if we are unwilling to accept the possibility fo peace? Precautions must be taken, but actions of war must be decided upon on hard facts. Only actual attacks or clear intent at harm is reason to defend oneself from another lifeform.

Either way, the argument has glaring flaws pointed out by others. If the aliens are so advanced, they are unlikely to need slaves, and depending on how they have evolved they may not even need anything from our planet. The aliens would have already found us since we have only tried to reach anything considered remotely close to us. (our galaxy). And if they have conquered the speed of light and perfected intersteller travel, they obviously know some advanced science that deals with incredible amounts of energy. Energy that can be used as a weapon similar to our Nuclear missles.

If they decide to clear us for an intersteller highway, I doubt we will get even a warning before our planet is suddenly destroyed in a horrendous release of energy riveling that of our sun. Our towels will do us no good where we will be as a species after that.

Also, if anyone is interested, try looking up U.S.O.s (Unidentified Submersible Objects). These are crafts sighted in the water that resemble U.F.O.s and tend to take flight out of the water. Make note of the trend for this things to gather around Naval carriers with Nuclear capabilities/engines.

I haven't slept in two days, so the above may contain logic faults, make little sense, or just be silly. Feel free to pick it apart.

[Moustacha]

Someone's been watching too much Stargate o_O I sure hope we don't get enslaved by Ghoa'ould

[smoker]

Organisers hope the hi-tech package will reach its target - the planet Gliese 581C - in early 2029.

hmm, i heard from an alien friend that unrequested radio transmissions are seen as a grave insult on Gliese - expect the invasion mid 2029! :-(

[Paqman]

~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.


You could argue that any civilisation that had built itself up to the point of being able to receive and interstellar radio message would, by definition, be more interested in creating than destroying.

Besides, we've been transmitting for decades now. This message is a teeny tiny drop in an ocean of radio waves we're sending out.

[billgoldberg]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7660449.stm



This is dumb.

sending messages to other planets is among the dumbest ideas ever conceived.

our universe is not the one featured in star trek. we will not be technologically/biologically within a few decades of each other.

either we will be millions of years ahead, or they will be millions of years ahead.

to put that in perspective, we are only 50k years more advanced than Neanderthal.

this will not be like a human interacting with a monkey.

it will be God interacting with a housefly.

~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.

Humanity's focus should be listening and acting - not speaking and reacting.

SETI is good.

sending dumb radio messages is bad.

sending probes that contain valuable information on us is dumb.

sending probes that contain MIS-information on us is something i would support.

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.



While it is likely that if there is life out there (and I think there is) they will either be more or less or equally advanced than us.

The two latter means we won't meet. Let's presume the first is true.

That means they will know we are also intelligent and aren't just dumb animals.

That doesn't mean they won't enslave us or something but it makes it less plausible.

[billgoldberg]

Quite honestly, if you sit up worrying about this at night, you should also be worried about being struck by lightning or experiencing spontaneous combustion. Do you not realize:
- the amazing improbability of life on any planet, particularly if you subscribe to the idea that it all happened by a random dose of radiation hitting a random batch of cosmic goo.
- the amazing distances these waves must travel to reach ANY planets, much less ones even capable of life (nearest known planet: 10.5 LY. Gas giant, btw)
- the rather patheticly miniscule amount of the universe being canvassed by these broadcasts
- the extreme unlikelihood of these signals being noticed, or traced back, or understood?
- the extreme unlikelihood of anyone figuring out how to travel at anything approaching light speed, much less overcoming that hard limit.


Assuming there are aliens and are millions of years more advanced than us, they could already know we are here. Just because we can't find them, doesn't mean they can't find us.

Maybe they just don't care or think we aren't worth exploring or think we aren't ready.

We are a new species only a few hundred thousand of years old.

Our technology only really took off around WWII.

We only know the very basics of what is possible.

We presume that distances are too far.

Who says they can't travel to other planets instantly?

[billgoldberg]

I don't know why you folks are all upset for last i checked we have been know to possibly a number of races for a long time. If anything we are a scientific curiousity and it seems according to one ancient account at least there was a alien race (ship really) that might of been defending our world from a differant one...of course the two may of just been at war but i digress. It was some old ancient religious thing from India but meh either way i've heard a number of things that suggest alien activity isn't a new thing.

And its been more recently discovered that our radio messages disperse into static not too far outside our solar system so radio waves not practical :P Seti is a waste of time and money i mean the aliens would need to be inside our star system to get anything.

I'm going to dismiss your first claims.

About the static.

Static is good. It still implies something that doesn't occur naturally.

At least that's seems logical.

[lykwydchykyn]

Assuming there are aliens and are millions of years more advanced than us, they could already know we are here. Just because we can't find them, doesn't mean they can't find us.

Maybe they just don't care or think we aren't worth exploring or think we aren't ready.

We are a new species only a few hundred thousand of years old.

Our technology only really took off around WWII.

We only know the very basics of what is possible.

We presume that distances are too far.

Who says they can't travel to other planets instantly?

I never said "can't" in any of my post. I pointed out things that are, by themselves, astronomically unlikely, all of which would have to be true for these things to be realized.

And if they hibernate for 1000 years on a spaceship to get here, I'd guess that gives us 1000 years to advance technologically while they sleep and don't advance.

In any case, they won't kill us for what SETI is broadcasting. But when they realize we've cut off analog TV broadcasts and they can't pick up DTV worth a poop, I imagine they'll come looking to complain.

[daverich]

As long any any alien life we meet doesn't dare to be un-American,- we should be ok.

:)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

[eragon100]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7660449.stm



This is dumb.

sending messages to other planets is among the dumbest ideas ever conceived.

our universe is not the one featured in star trek. we will not be technologically/biologically within a few decades of each other.

either we will be millions of years ahead, or they will be millions of years ahead.

to put that in perspective, we are only 50k years more advanced than Neanderthal.

this will not be like a human interacting with a monkey.

it will be God interacting with a housefly.

~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.

Humanity's focus should be listening and acting - not speaking and reacting.

SETI is good.

sending dumb radio messages is bad.

sending probes that contain valuable information on us is dumb.

sending probes that contain MIS-information on us is something i would support.

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.

Yeah Cool, Alien war! :popcorn:

[Dragonbite]

I love the Twilight Zone episode where a UFO comes down over the UN building and an alien is beamed into the middle of whatever room they hid to.

The alien told them they had been watching Earthlings and are very disappointed with them. They were going to annihilate the human race and try again.

The humans begged and pleaded for 24 hours. The alien didn't see what they could accomplish in 24 hours but gave it to them anyway.

The following day the alien shows up and the guy presents him with a book; a signed peace treaty of all of the nations.

The alien looked and laughed at them.

"You don't understand. We bred you for war and your weapons are too inferior"

And it closes with seeing hundreds of UFO's floating down over the sky ready to annihilate the human race.

[NintendoTogepi]

Well why have one planet out of trillions be populated with so called "intelligent" life.

1. I'm a Christian, so it's not unlikely to me that God created Earth as the only planet with life in the universe.

2. If God doesn't exist (which I obviously don't agree with), then I think it's likely Earth is just random. One planet in the universe, that was just perfectly lucky to be absolutely optimal to the creation of life.

[lukjad]

Waste of time and money. Just give some of each to me next time.

[Jay_Bee]

Oh, no! They are (potentially) violating the Prime Directive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_directive)!

[DrMega]

we (and they) will always measure things like 'intelligence' and 'self aware' against ourselves (or their selves), so the issue of moral justification is completely irrelevant

How do you work that out? Why should they have the same way of thinking as us? WE don't even have the same way as thinking as us, in that the values in the US as very far removed from those in, say, Iran. That's just among one species on this planet of ours. When you consider the differing values between species, things get even more different. Not many women would kill and eat their own babies but there are many animals that would, and do. We can't make assumptions about anyone based on our own way of thinking.


1. Aliens won't see us as animals. There's a difference of kind between sentient beings and animals, not just a difference of degree. And even if they did see us as animals, our own science proves that animals have feelings and can experience pain. Why wouldn't they understand the same about us?

This is just another example of the "human condition", one of the symptoms being a blend of innocent ignorance and arrogance. We are no more or less sentient than many other species on our planet. It is just us that decided that we are. When you grow up keeping animals of all kinds, you just know that each has its own character, emotions, intelligence etc. We are each unique within our own species, and each species is unique within the grander scheme. The innocent domestic cat often doesn't care for the feelings of other animals, they will often playfully kill mice and small birds just because its fun.


Do you not realize:
- the amazing improbability of life on any planet, particularly if you subscribe to the idea that it all happened by a random dose of radiation hitting a random batch of cosmic goo.

Surely if the universe is infinite, then it would be an amazing improbability if there is NOT life on another planet. Even if the universe isn't infinite, we do know that there is at least one star for every human that has ever lived. If a tiny percentage have planets that could support some form of life, there is still a lot of opportunity there. On earth we know that life is found in all kinds of conditions that were once thought far to extreme to support life. There are even organisms that live in total darkness with no oxygen at all, and get there energy from minerals that would be very poisonous to us. If we get past that out-dated idea that you need a very narrow temperature range, oxygen, liquid water, and carbon based nutrients, then the possibilities are endless. Even if you can't get past that out-dated idea, the possibilities are still huge.


- the extreme unlikelihood of anyone figuring out how to travel at anything approaching light speed, much less overcoming that hard limit.

That is only an "extreme unlikelihood" because we can't do it. We can't swim underwater without coming up for air (or using breathing apparatus) but that doesn't mean that nothing can. All our ideas about what is even possible are limited by what we know. If by some freak of quantum physics we ended up with a person being zapped from 100 years ago to present day, they would see our computers and mobile telephones and deem it all to be some sort of witchcraft.


RF waves have been broadcast from earth since they started being sent around the world. If some other civilization has the ability to receive them they already have if they are close enough.

Not necessarily. The signals are weak and would be lost in background radiation. We have a hard enough time maintaining communication with long range probes, and that's using powerful unidirectional transceivers. If you listen to the famous recording of Neil Armstrong broadcasting from the moon, using purpose built unidirectional gear, you'll hear that even over that short range much of the signal is degraded.


We only know the very basics of what is possible.

We presume that distances are too far.

Who says they can't travel to other planets instantly?

Exactly.

[lykwydchykyn]

Surely if the universe is infinite, then it would be an amazing improbability if there is NOT life on another planet. Even if the universe isn't infinite, we do know that there is at least one star for every human that has ever lived. If a tiny percentage have planets that could support some form of life, there is still a lot of opportunity there. On earth we know that life is found in all kinds of conditions that were once thought far to extreme to support life. There are even organisms that live in total darkness with no oxygen at all, and get there energy from minerals that would be very poisonous to us. If we get past that out-dated idea that you need a very narrow temperature range, oxygen, liquid water, and carbon based nutrients, then the possibilities are endless. Even if you can't get past that out-dated idea, the possibilities are still huge.

So far no one has been able to replicate even a single condition under which life spontaneously forms, so let's not start talking about "outdated ideas" just yet. If I'm wrong please send me a recipe and I'll see if I can't generate some life this weekend. What life can *adapt to* after it already exists is another question entirely.

Not only that, but it's irrelevant whether the universe is infinite or not. We are only really concerned in this argument with a finite chunk of the universe which these radio signals have the potential to reach (a) intact and (b) before something else makes our world uninhabitable (Sol going supernova, asteroid impact, etc) and renders the issue of alien contact moot. I will make an extremely generous guess that that involves a few thousand stars at most. Care to venture a guess at the probability of life in that lot?



That is only an "extreme unlikelihood" because we can't do it. We can't swim underwater without coming up for air (or using breathing apparatus) but that doesn't mean that nothing can. All our ideas about what is even possible are limited by what we know. If by some freak of quantum physics we ended up with a person being zapped from 100 years ago to present day, they would see our computers and mobile telephones and deem it all to be some sort of witchcraft.

It's an extreme unlikelihood because everything we understand about physics says it's impossible to travel faster than light. It's one thing to talk about things we as a species aren't designed for, or things we know are possible but haven't been invented yet. This is a question of the basic laws of physics.

[derekr44]

They're already here. Haven't you seen V?

[earthpigg]

again, the need to have slaves is completely irrelevant. we dont have pets and cattle because we need them, we have them because we want them and they are fun and/or tast good.

again, there is no need to travel faster than light - just a need to be long lived and/or able to hibernate for long periods of time. if a species is millions of years ahead of us, and it takes them 1,000 years to get here at sublight speeds.... that 1,000 years wont count for much compared to the millions they had/have on us.


How do you work that out? Why should they have the same way of thinking as us? WE don't even have the same way as thinking as us, in that the values in the US as very far removed from those in, say, Iran. That's just among one species on this planet of ours. When you consider the differing values between species, things get even more different. Not many women would kill and eat their own babies but there are many animals that would, and do. We can't make assumptions about anyone based on our own way of thinking.

i agree, they very well may think completely different than us - hence, any guesses we make about morality are shots in the dark. hence, irrelevant.... the only thing to do is hope for the best and plan for the worst.

edit:

radio signals getting weaker and weaker is (to a point) simply a matter of more and more powerful computers that can filter the garbage out.

[Sporkman]

They're already here. Haven't you seen V?

The V stands for Victory!

[Nano Geek]

I hope the aliens use the same language and format that we use, otherwise I doubt they will think much of it.

Probably they will be highly insulted by something those messages said and come down here and kill all of us. :)

By the way, I don't believe that aliens exist, but that's another story.

[TimboUK]

Just some observations in a topic I find very interesting.

1. The assumption that we are alone in the universe is more remarkable to me than believing in life elsewhere. Having said that there has to be a "first race" and theres nothing to say it isnt us.

2. I dont believe that enslaving/conquer is an issue. If aliens are advanced enough to get here in the first place, logic would suggest that they had the technology not to need a race of being like ours (afterall cloning technology is well within our reach, and by the time we are able to travel the stars properly it will be perfected.

3. Why is it that Aliens apparently have amazing technology that allows them to visit earth, yet they still seem to crash? (and usually in the US)

4. If aliens wanted to make contact, they would land in a public place, they havent so one can assume if they do exist they dont want to speak with us. I wonder why then, with the advanced technology these aliens are using, do they light their spaceships up like christmas trees so they can be seen by people.

5. In regards to mis-information and transmissions being sent, we are already doing it, albeit in our TV broadcasts.

[DrMega]

So far no one has been able to replicate even a single condition under which life spontaneously forms, so let's not start talking about "outdated ideas" just yet. If I'm wrong please send me a recipe and I'll see if I can't generate some life this weekend. What life can *adapt to* after it already exists is another question entirely.

Nobody is talking about creating life. Nobody understands exactly how it happened (there are many theories, both scientific and theological, but nobody actually knows). The fact that we can't recreate it means nothing at all. We can't create planets and stars but we know they are there. Also the very fact that by whatever means, life established on a volcanically active storm battered planet with an atmosphere we would now consider poisonous (our own Earth), is enough to demonstrate the principle that life can seemingly spontaneously come into being. Even if you believe the creationist point of view which has no basis in science, there is still nothing to say that Earth is the only planet that got such treatment (there are many religions and belief systems that believe something similar to the creationist viewpoint, and all the ones I know just assume that we are not the only ones).


Not only that, but it's irrelevant whether the universe is infinite or not. We are only really concerned in this argument with a finite chunk of the universe which these radio signals have the potential to reach (a) intact and (b) before something else makes our world uninhabitable (Sol going supernova, asteroid impact, etc) and renders the issue of alien contact moot. I will make an extremely generous guess that that involves a few thousand stars at most. Care to venture a guess at the probability of life in that lot?

Ok, I concede that, but you had seemed to be dismissing the possibility of life elsewhere at all. I personally doubt very much whether there is intelligent life at the Gliese planet, and even if there is, I doubt they are equipped with radio gear. It just seems a little improbable purely from a statistical point of view. I believe that there are races at least as advanced as us elsewhere in the universe, but I don't believe they are on every planet (our own solar system gives us that much info).



It's an extreme unlikelihood because everything we understand about physics says it's impossible to travel faster than light. It's one thing to talk about things we as a species aren't designed for, or things we know are possible but haven't been invented yet. This is a question of the basic laws of physics.

We (as a race) don't even know that much about physics. Physicists openly admit that they don't know how gravity works, what triggered the big bang, what exactly time is all about, etc. We have huge particle colliders to try to figure these things out. As long as we know there are unanswered questions, we can't possible dismiss anything as impossible (if everyone took that stance, humankind would have made no progress at all and we'd still be just like any other animal).


Just some observations in a topic I find very interesting.

1. The assumption that we are alone in the universe is more remarkable to me than believing in life elsewhere. Having said that there has to be a "first race" and theres nothing to say it isnt us.

Agreed.



2. I dont believe that enslaving/conquer is an issue. If aliens are advanced enough to get here in the first place, logic would suggest that they had the technology not to need a race of being like ours (afterall cloning technology is well within our reach, and by the time we are able to travel the stars properly it will be perfected.

It depends on their mentality. Imagine if the bankers, politicians, oil giants of Earth found a way to profit from another planet's resources. The fact that they could do it means technology would have advanced far beyond what it is now, but history has proven many times over that greedy people will always find new ways to profit.


3. Why is it that Aliens apparently have amazing technology that allows them to visit earth, yet they still seem to crash? (and usually in the US)

LOL, that's a good point. I'd often pondered that one myself. Perhaps they come belting through a wormhole and leave it to late to slam the brakes on, on perhaps they are tired after their long journey and fall asleep at the wheel. Maybe the pilot has put his wife in charge of the map.


4. If aliens wanted to make contact, they would land in a public place, they havent so one can assume if they do exist they dont want to speak with us. I wonder why then, with the advanced technology these aliens are using, do they light their spaceships up like christmas trees so they can be seen by people.

It's not us they're interested in. It's the rats. I know this because I used to watch Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[earthpigg]

2. I dont believe that enslaving/conquer is an issue. If aliens are advanced enough to get here in the first place, logic would suggest that they had the technology not to need a race of being like ours (afterall cloning technology is well within our reach, and by the time we are able to travel the stars properly it will be perfected.


we have all the technology not to 'need' pet dogs or factory farms.... we have them because we want to.

thats like the 5th time ive pointed that out in this thread, does someone who shares TimboUK's mindset want to challenge my assertion that the mindset is bunk?

[handy]

I hope the Vogons pick up our messages.

With any luck they will come & recite poetry.

[mips]

RF waves have been broadcast from earth since they started being sent around the world. If some other civilization has the ability to receive them they already have if they are close enough.

+1

We have been sending radio & tv broadcasts out into space ever since they have been around.

This is nothing to get excited about. Their one little broadcast does not even compare...

[DrMega]

+1

We have been sending radio & tv broadcasts out into space ever since they have been around.

This is nothing to get excited about. Their one little broadcast does not even compare...

There's a key difference as I've already pointed out. The signals that we've been broadcasting for TV and radio are generally fairly low powered omnidirectional signals. Local radio stations with 10kW omnidirectional transmitters have a useful range of about 50 miles at best. The signal being discussed in this thread is a unidirectional signal, transmitted from a high powered transmitted, to a very specific location. The two signal types can't even be compared any more than you can compare apples with an EU compliant banana.

[koenn]

I hope the Vogons pick up our messages.

With any luck they will come & recite poetry.

yeah, right, great idea.
you obviously have never heard Vogon poetry.

[MasterNetra]

I'm going to dismiss your first claims.

About the static.

Static is good. It still implies something that doesn't occur naturally.

At least that's seems logical.

No static as in normal space static. It wouldn't be discernible from the normal radio waves and such produced by stars and or other natural stuff. Radio waves are not our best bet at establishing contact with other inhabited advanced star systems...Or even a option really >.>

[Paqman]

There's a key difference as I've already pointed out. The signals that we've been broadcasting for TV and radio are generally fairly low powered omnidirectional signals. Local radio stations with 10kW omnidirectional transmitters have a useful range of about 50 miles at best. The signal being discussed in this thread is a unidirectional signal, transmitted from a high powered transmitted, to a very specific location. The two signal types can't even be compared any more than you can compare apples with an EU compliant banana.

It doesn't necessarily matter.With a sensitive antenna and enough processing power picking artificial signals out of the background soup becomes a technical challenge, not a theoretical impossibility. Any civilisation capable of radio astronomy should be able to detect even quite a weak signal and identify it as artificial at a pretty long range. Having said that, identifying the signal as artificial could be the tricky bit.

As for it being unidirectional, that's really only a question of power, since we can assume that the little green men would have their receiver pointed directly at us (or more correctly, our Sun). Similarly, SETI doesn't point their antennas at interstellar space. An omnidirectional transmitter (while low power) does have the advantage of transmitting to a massive cone of space. Also, TV & radio have been transmitting constantly for decades. Despite the low power of the individual transmitters i'd say it's much more likely to be detected than a narrower, more powerful beam sent for a very brief period.

[Tomosaur]

If you never try, you'll never know.

I would rather die knowing that we weren't alone, than dying wondering whether aliens existed.

[jgrabham]

I for one think it's too late, and there are already alien spies here - looking at you LaRoza!!

[handy]

yeah, right, great idea.
you obviously have never heard Vogon poetry.

You have never read any of mine! :lolflag:

[bobbybobington]

There are probably hundreds if not thousands of intelligent civilizations in the universe. The problem is that they are separated by insanely vast distances, and in terms of the age of the universe last for only an instant until they are destroyed or destroy themselves. IMO, probably the only civilizations that have a chance are artificially intelligent ones, because they can survive the incredibly long journeys through space to spread themselves out.

[grotto]

I think any civilization with the technology to transgress light-years of space would have to be benevolent. With out addressing sociological and psychological issues a civilization would destroy itself once it had sufficient technology. Alpha predator species, like humanity, I doubt last much beyond the nuclear age.

It's nature's way of weeding out the evolutionary dead-ends species.

And, as with humanity, such alien civilizations would likely incorporate their technology with their biology. If they have the ability to get to us, it is just as likely they are a post-singularity species that is non-corporeal, live in a Dyson sphere and the extent of their abilities is tied to immense energy sources such as a nuetron star or quasar.

In any case, it would be narcissistic to think any alien species would have any interest in Earth or the life on it.

[the yawner]

we have all the technology not to 'need' pet dogs or factory farms.... we have them because we want to.

Which technology?

[mick222]

Is the problem not how will we be enslaved but how could we be. For aliens to reach us would take a monumental effort defying the laws of physics by traveling faster than the speed of light ,so i wouldn't worry to much. Even if they could reach us ,if they are way more evolved why would they want to.

[sloggerkhan]

Personally I think no matter the interactions, contact with extraterrestrials would be much more interesting than most current events. So signal more!

[TimboUK]

Earthpig, I too am wondering what technology you are talking about when you mention about having a dog.

To me there will always be an appeal to people, to have a sentient animal dependent on its human owner that gives unconditional love. I fail to see how our technology can accomodate that need.

Im sure if cloning was at a stage where you could have "designer" pets, there would be a few celebs that would indulge, and Im quite sure that should cloning become less of a debating point and more mainstream, we will see that.

Saying that an alien species with the technology to travel the stars would intentionally come here and enslave the human race to me is a little far fetched, when they could probably create their own race, in their own way, without the fuss of coming here to do it.

That being said Aliens will probably be just that "alien" their way of thinking/communication will probably be very different to ours and I dont think we can second guess either way what they would or wouldnt do.

We can make certain assumptions though. If the universe was teeming with Sentient advanced life forms, and if Earth was really that special, we would have already been conquered years ago.

I think if we are one of many, we will probably find that theres nothing remarkable with our tiny little planet, and I think its only human arrogance that believes we are so special that we would be desirable to any alien civilization.

[pp.]

We can make certain assumptions though. If the universe was teeming with Sentient advanced life forms, and if Earth was really that special, we would have already been conquered years ago.

Who says we haven't or, rather, the earth hasn't?

There are some sources and quit a bit more speculations about entities not originating on earth having made/adapted/influenced man.

[handy]

I think any civilization with the technology to transgress light-years of space would have to be benevolent. With out addressing sociological and psychological issues a civilization would destroy itself once it had sufficient technology. Alpha predator species, like humanity, I doubt last much beyond the nuclear age.

It's nature's way of weeding out the evolutionary dead-ends species.

And, as with humanity, such alien civilizations would likely incorporate their technology with their biology. If they have the ability to get to us, it is just as likely they are a post-singularity species that is non-corporeal, live in a Dyson sphere and the extent of their abilities is tied to immense energy sources such as a nuetron star or quasar.

In any case, it would be narcissistic to think any alien species would have any interest in Earth or the life on it.

Excellent!

[DrMega]

I think any civilization with the technology to transgress light-years of space would have to be benevolent. With out addressing sociological and psychological issues a civilization would destroy itself once it had sufficient technology. Alpha predator species, like humanity, I doubt last much beyond the nuclear age.

You can't compare something none of us know anything about, with us. But seeing as you have done so, let's consider the fact that we have the technology to destroy ourselves, and have done for over half a century. We haven't done it yet. And yet we're not exactly a very nice species when you consider what we've done to the natural environment and how we treat other species (and each other).

[TimboUK]

Who says we haven't or, rather, the earth hasn't?

There are some sources and quit a bit more speculations about entities not originating on earth having made/adapted/influenced man.


Theres probably some truth in that. It would certainly explain Vista.

[mips]

It doesn't necessarily matter.With a sensitive antenna and enough processing power picking artificial signals out of the background soup becomes a technical challenge, not a theoretical impossibility. Any civilisation capable of radio astronomy should be able to detect even quite a weak signal and identify it as artificial at a pretty long range. Having said that, identifying the signal as artificial could be the tricky bit.

As for it being unidirectional, that's really only a question of power, since we can assume that the little green men would have their receiver pointed directly at us (or more correctly, our Sun). Similarly, SETI doesn't point their antennas at interstellar space. An omnidirectional transmitter (while low power) does have the advantage of transmitting to a massive cone of space. Also, TV & radio have been transmitting constantly for decades. Despite the low power of the individual transmitters i'd say it's much more likely to be detected than a narrower, more powerful beam sent for a very brief period.

+1

You beat me to it ;)

[t0p]

Is the problem not how will we be enslaved but how could we be. For aliens to reach us would take a monumental effort defying the laws of physics by traveling faster than the speed of light ,so i wouldn't worry to much. Even if they could reach us ,if they are way more evolved why would they want to.

You assume that being "more evolved" makes the aliens uninterested in slaughter and conquest. That is obviously incorrect. The more evolved a race, the bloodthirstier it will be. Check who created death camps and gas chambers: was it the cows or the cowboys?

[Paqman]

The more evolved a race, the bloodthirstier it will be. Check who created death camps and gas chambers: was it the cows or the cowboys?

You cite extreme examples to support your point, but they aren't the reality of what most people's lives are like. Human beings today live much longer lives in much greater comfort than at any time in our history. And compared to animals, we are much, much, much less likely to either die a violent death, or indeed personally kill anything in our lives. I'd say we're pretty urbane and genteel, really.

Having said that, it's reasonable to assume that an alien race would be carnivores or omnivores. On Earth, the grazing herbivores aren't too clever, because they don't have to be. Hunting behaviour involves tactics, communication and problem solving. If we allow ourselves to extrapolate from terrestrial species, we'd expect a an alien race capable of using radio to be at least capable of organised violence by virtue of their hunter heritage.

Of course, just because someone is capable of violence, doesn't mean they will attack. We're all capable of going over to our neighbour's house and stabbing them to death any time we like, but why would we? Unless an alien race had both a political/financial motivation to attack us and an actual way of doing so (which seems pretty far-fetched for even an extremely advanced civilisation) then we've got no reason to expect the giant tripods to be turning up any time soon.

[DrMega]

You assume that being "more evolved" makes the aliens uninterested in slaughter and conquest. That is obviously incorrect. The more evolved a race, the bloodthirstier it will be. Check who created death camps and gas chambers: was it the cows or the cowboys?

I agree with your point but I wouldn't associate nazis with cowboys.

You are right though, I keep insisting that we can't compare something we know nothing about with humans. If we could however, then we must also consider that all the advances made by the human race, both evolutionary and technologically, have led to us finding more and more efficient ways of killing and exploiting each other, and other species.

[handy]

Wow, its the first time I get to say Godwin's [Law] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law) on a forum! :lolflag:

[runningwithscissors]

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.++++++++++++++++++++

[earthpigg]

Originally Posted by earthpigg:
we have all the technology not to 'need' pet dogs or factory farms.... we have them because we want to.


Which technology?

teddy bears replace pet animals (which we dont 'need' any ways), and we dont need steak or pork to live.

[earthpigg]

Earthpig, I too am wondering what technology you are talking about when you mention about having a dog.

To me there will always be an appeal to people, to have a sentient animal dependent on its human owner that gives unconditional love. I fail to see how our technology can accomodate that need.[/NEED]

it isn't a need - we like pets. if you did not have a pet you would not die. having a kanine as a slave is convienent for you, so you do it. dont get me wrong, i love dogs and plan to get a pet dog as soon as it is feasable.

[QUOTE]
Saying that an alien species with the technology to travel the stars would intentionally come here and enslave the human race to me is a little far fetched, when they could probably create their own race, in their own way, without the fuss of coming here to do it.

designer pets.



That being said Aliens will probably be just that "alien" their way of thinking/communication will probably be very different to ours and I dont think we can second guess either way what they would or wouldnt do.

yeah, the parallel between what we call 'pet' and whatever they have going would be far from exact. maybe they will use our brains as BBQ sauce on the belief that it is an aphrodesiac... who knows? what we do know, is all animals on the planet use other species at their leasure and think nothing of it.

[billgoldberg]

Anyone in this thread should really take a look at this video from Richard Dawkins. His speculates about Alien life and I agree with most he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa55s9Gs_Eg

[billgoldberg]

1. I'm a Christian, so it's not unlikely to me that God created Earth as the only planet with life in the universe.

2. If God doesn't exist (which I obviously don't agree with), then I think it's likely Earth is just random. One planet in the universe, that was just perfectly lucky to be absolutely optimal to the creation of life.

Read the post above this one.

--

In this galaxy alone there are hundreds of planets (that we know of) that are suited for life and where it could have evolved.

[billgoldberg]

You assume that being "more evolved" makes the aliens uninterested in slaughter and conquest. That is obviously incorrect. The more evolved a race, the bloodthirstier it will be. Check who created death camps and gas chambers: was it the cows or the cowboys?

While it could be that more evolved aliens will still enslave us, your statement about "the more evolved ..." isn't.

[NintendoTogepi]

Read the post above this one.

--

In this galaxy alone there are hundreds of planets (that we know of) that are suited for life and where it could have evolved.

Meh.

If there is other intelligent life in the universe, it is so sparse and far away we will never meet it.

One species per every other 3 galaxies...

[mick222]

God created the universe and created us in his own image therefore there is no aliens , far less aliens more advanced than us . Unless god is a myth.

[billgoldberg]

God created the universe and created us in his own image therefore there is no aliens , far less aliens more advanced than us . Unless god is a myth.

Unless?

[pp.]

God created the universe and created us in his own image therefore there is no aliens , far less aliens more advanced than us . Unless god is a myth.

Gods and angels are amply mentioned in some sources. Those sources usually agree on those beings not being from the earth. That automatically makes them aliens.

[sloggerkhan]

I believe Milton references other worlds.

[rune0077]

I believe Milton references other worlds.

"Unless the almighty maker them ordains,
His Dark Materials to create more worlds."

:)

But it's mostly just Hell and Heaven, and a little bit of Earth in his writings.

[handy]

Careful, there is no BY forum to move this thread to. :lolflag:

[spupy]

I really don't see humanity in its current state as being able to appropriately interact with an alien race.
By the way, if the aliens are million of years ahead of us - they must be really powerful if they didn't exterminate themselves. We humans think of ourselves as dominant and long-lasting, but dinosaurs still hold this crown, don't they? When we can prove that we can stand the trials of time and of our own nature, and outlive the dinosaurs, we are then ready for aliens.

):P <--- waving alien guy

[frankleeee]

"Unless the almighty maker them ordains,
His Dark Materials to create more worlds."

:)

But it's mostly just Hell and Heaven, and a little bit of Earth in his writings.

I knew that this had to be from Paradise Lost which I have never been able to fully read. ;)

[Tamlynmac]

Seriously, does anyone think an advanced alien race would ever initiate contact with this planet? We tend to be violent by nature and extremely aggressive. I doubt an advanced culture/race would find those traits desirable. A race older than ours and advanced enough to travel here, must certainly have resolved basic issues on their planet(s) (that our planet struggles with daily). We can't even agree on global warming or the next ice age. Our politics varies by country and certain places on this planet groups still practice genocide.

Everyday, our TV and radio signals broadcast into space - If this were used to evaluate our intellect and/or advancement - heaven help us.


Ask Yourself:
If I were an intelligent alien race capable of space travel, why would I even consider planet earth as worthy of communication??? I believe the only motive for an alien visit, would be to eradicate our species.:lolflag:

[Whiffle]

They'll have watched many years of our TV shows before they get that message. They'll probably be really confused.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s268/PGII/galaxy_quest_3.jpg

[billgoldberg]

Seriously, does anyone think an advanced alien race would ever initiate contact with this planet? We tend to be violent by nature and extremely aggressive. I doubt an advanced culture/race would find those traits desirable. A race older than ours and advanced enough to travel here, must certainly have resolved basic issues on their planet(s) (that our planet struggles with daily). We can't even agree on global warming or the next ice age. Our politics varies by country and certain places on this planet groups still practice genocide.

Everyday, our TV and radio signals broadcast into space - If this were used to evaluate our intellect and/or advancement - heaven help us.


Ask Yourself:
If I were an intelligent alien race capable of space travel, why would I even consider planet earth as worthy of communication??? I believe the only motive for an alien visit, would be to eradicate our species.:lolflag:

I justed watched that Twiligh Zone episode Dragonbit suggested a few pages back.

There something similar happens.

To make it short, they might need us to fight for them :p

--

edit: in case someone was wondering, it's a episode from the 1985 twilight zone series. It was S01E37 and was called "A small talent for war".

It was pretty hard to track down, I got it off rapishare.

I'm thinking about buying the dvd box that has all the series. It's a must have for every sci-fi fan.

[Tamlynmac]

billgoldberg Re: Space - we are asking to be enslaved!
I justed watched that Twiligh Zone episode Dragonbit suggested a few pages back.

There something similar happens.

To make it short, they might need us to fight for them :razz:


That may actually have some merit. Although, I have some serious doubts regarding an alien race that is capable of traveling here to recruit us. I tend to agree with some others that inferred it's more likely we'd be a food or work source. If our planet had a resource that were in demand, our civilization might simply be reduced to a labor force and then eliminated.

I must admit to being a big Twilight Zone fan and recall watching that episode. I'm also a big OL fan and even enjoyed watching Night Gallery. My wife believes I have a serious flaw in my character...:lolflag:

[DrMega]

On Earth, the grazing herbivores aren't too clever, because they don't have to be.

You've never owned a goat then? :)

I know what you mean, but some herbivores are more clever than most people give them credit for.


God created the universe and created us in his own image therefore there is no aliens , far less aliens more advanced than us . Unless god is a myth.

Your viewpoint is based on just one interpretation of just one religion. It is also flawed because if God created the heavens and the earth, and therefore God existed before the earth, then he can't be from earth, and must therefore be an alien (as others have also pointed out). Many religions teach of the existence of other beings elsewhere in the universe, and I don't think Christianity says that there aren't any. Without starting a religious debate, another possible interpretation of the claim that God created us in his image, consider that that might refer to "nature", which we are part of and at the same time have influence over, rather than taking it literally that God is humanlike.

[handy]

They'll have watched many years of our TV shows before they get that message. They'll probably be really confused.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s268/PGII/galaxy_quest_3.jpg

:lolflag:

Spot-on!

I have the DVD of Galaxy Quest, very funy & clever, the writers obviously thought about the effects of TV on the minds of the uninitiated.

Sigoulash's comment made in the ventilation ducts & harkening back to the Alien movies is priceless.

@DrMega: +1 on the goat. :-)

[t0p]

I can't see any harm in transmitting "Hi there!" messages to the stars. Maybe an alien who receives such a message will assume we're friendly and fly his saucer over for a kegger?

We've been announcing our presence to the universe ever since Marconi's first transmissions left the earth at the speed of light. Transmissions intended for earth audiences are much weaker than the deliberate calls to ET, but ET's radio equipment is far better than ours and can boost such weak signals no problem. And any alien intelligence monitoring these transmissions will certainly conclude that our race is violent, sectarian and in sore need of extermination. So I can't see the harm in the occasional message saying: "Hi ET! We're not really as evil as our TV shows would indicate... we're pretty okay actually!" Maybe then we will be saved?

[handy]

So I can't see the harm in the occasional message saying: "Hi ET! We're not really as evil as our TV shows would indicate... we're pretty okay actually!" Maybe then we will be saved?

Saved from the evil TV shows? :lolflag:

[rune0077]

I knew that this had to be from Paradise Lost which I have never been able to fully read. ;)

I read it in portions, a few pages at a time. It's really to much trying to read it all in one sitting.

[billgoldberg]

I can't see any harm in transmitting "Hi there!" messages to the stars. Maybe an alien who receives such a message will assume we're friendly and fly his saucer over for a kegger?


lol

I hope the aliens from "femalien" hear it first.

--

Ps: after watching some more Twilight Zone eps, this thread has Kanamit written all over it.

[mips]

A few episodes of these so called reality tv show crap and they will steer a wide berth around earth ;)

[handy]

A few episodes of these so called reality tv show crap and they will steer a wide berth around earth ;)

Any beings with the intelligence to travel light years in space would find humanity a waste of time. :lolflag: Unless compassion has put them here already to help us in hidden ways...

[crimesaucer]

"....Earthpig, I too am wondering what technology you are talking about when you mention about having a dog.

To me there will always be an appeal to people, to have a sentient animal dependent on its human owner that gives unconditional love. I fail to see how our technology can accomodate that need....."

"dependent on its human owner"

Some owners have dogs for dog fights, sled dogs, guard dogs, seeing eye dogs, dog shows, drug-sniffing dogs, bomb-sniffing dogs, hunting dogs, avalanche dogs, breeding dogs for money, and experiments on dogs.... there's even gross dog porn. (disgusting)


Pavlov owned some dogs....


Some people even EAT dogs in some places.


My point is that people often see the "alien" thing as one group of aliens that all think the same way about Humans. Like ambassadors from space..... or the complete opposite like some Alien being that eats people like a great white shark, or some other wild animal.


I prefer to think that aliens are FAR more than one race of alien, and as one group of aliens might like to control a human like a Robert Heinlein novel.... some other groups might be against enslavement of different universal species, and they might be fighting them across the universe as they spread around trying to control infant planets (technologically speaking), such as earth.

[Watchtow3r]

so, to summarize what everyone here has said in one short line:

Space, the Final Frontier- because it will be the final frontier we reach before aliens come and totally wipe us out.

[Watchtow3r]

I just had an idea: what if by sending out messages to aliens, we are only telling them, "Hey! Fresh real estate here! I know habitable planets are hard to come by and your planet is probably overpopulated from millions of years of growth, so come here!!" Think about it- it's what we did to the Native Americans. We basically wiped them out because they wouldn't leave. And we did in fact think of them as sentient human beings. The same thing could happen with us now.

[crimesaucer]

I just had an idea: what if by sending out messages to aliens, we are only telling them, "Hey! Fresh real estate here! I know habitable planets are hard to come by and your planet is probably overpopulated from millions of years of growth, so come here!!" Think about it- it's what we did to the Native Americans. We basically wiped them out because they wouldn't leave. And we did in fact think of them as sentient human beings. The same thing could happen with us now.

Or, what if you're living on a farmed planet already..... and the only thing that matters is whether you're a free range human, or not. Or if you're being educated at a rapid rate to catch you up with the rest of the universe..... or if you're being dumbed down to be a worker.


Or if I go back to the human=dogs idea, wouldn't you rather be a seeing eye dog or an avalanche dog saving lives..... or maybe a dog on Letterman doing stupid pet tricks?

[taqkavar]

I wouldn't mind the consequences. whether its slavery or death, we get to see some freaking space aliens first! :guitar:

[earthpigg]

I just had an idea: what if by sending out messages to aliens, we are only telling them, "Hey! Fresh real estate here! I know habitable planets are hard to come by and your planet is probably overpopulated from millions of years of growth, so come here!!" Think about it- it's what we did to the Native Americans. We basically wiped them out because they wouldn't leave. And we did in fact think of them as sentient human beings. The same thing could happen with us now.

exactly.


wouldn't you rather be a seeing eye dog or an avalanche dog saving lives..... or maybe a dog on Letterman doing stupid pet tricks?

i would rather be an independant dog in control of his own fate.

if the cost of jumping millions of years technologically overnight is that we, as a race, lose control and independance over our own world... then im happy in the 21st century, tyvm.

[handy]

i would rather be an independant dog in control of his own fate.

That my friend may very well be an illusion that many of us live under!

[earthpigg]

That my friend may very well be an illusion that many of us live under!

you are working with them, aren't you?

[billgoldberg]

That my friend may very well be an illusion that many of us live under!

I see they have already infiltrated our populous.

[MasterNetra]

I wouldn't mind the consequences. whether its slavery or death, we get to see some freaking space aliens first! :guitar:

I personally don't think seeing aliens is worth death really. Not really slavery either. Wouldn't mind being a well treated pet but aside from that meh.

[Grant A.]

Who knows, the aliens on other planets may not even be made from DNA, hell, they may not even be made of carbon, they could be made of silicon for all we know. On top of that, I wouldn't expect anything to come and take us over, especially if their planet is much bigger and/or smaller than ours, the air pressure would kill them in an instant. We all know the only two types of creatures to come into being on earth from practically nothing were the proto-archae and proto-eu bacteria (Which according to current theory, existed in holes in black smokers until certain conditions allowed for a membrane to form. So perhaps, their life may not be so different afterall.

[crimesaucer]

i would rather be an independant dog in control of his own fate.

if the cost of jumping millions of years technologically overnight is that we, as a race, lose control and independance over our own world... then im happy in the 21st century, tyvm.


See you missed my point, you're saying that we're advertising for Aliens to visit our independent planet, that you think evolved naturally to this place in time.....


And for the sake of argument, I'm saying that there is a possibility that you're living on an planet that has never been independent, that you might be living on a people farm (maybe one of many), and that this "people farm" has been watched over and built up in a precise way since the beginning of man.

[earthpigg]

See you missed my point, you're saying that we're advertising for Aliens to visit our independent planet, that you think evolved naturally to this place in time.....


And for the sake of argument, I'm saying that there is a possibility that you're living on an planet that has never been independent, that you might be living on a people farm (maybe one of many), and that this "people farm" has been watched over and built up in a precise way since the beginning of man.

gotcha. i say we locate and destroy the species that did that to us.

[EdThaSlayer]

I would like to have a war with aliens. The unification of the human species would finally succeed and all the resources humanity has to offer will be focused on defeating that alien monster. Now there will not be any human killing human on a mass level using our military, it will be humans trying to kill the aliens. Even if the aliens are peaceful, waging war with them is the best chance for human survival, unless they could cure HIV/aids, hunger, poverty, and the like. :)

[Helios1276]

Aliens don't exist.

Earth is alone in the universe.

I dub thee NintrolldoTogeipi

[handy]

gotcha. i say we locate and destroy the species that did that to us.

You must have read the books, & seen all the vid's where after great struggle humanity finds the weakness of the hugely more powerful & supremely intelligent foe; destroying the aliens, which then allows humanity to joyfully rebuild their magnificent societies, continuing to set the standard for all other civilisations that exist throughout the galaxies to aspire to.

Ah! It is good to be human, the supreme species of the universe! :lolflag:

Who would'a thunk it?

[TheSlipstream]

If they are even close to being biologically similar to us, they might die like the Tripods from War of the Worlds. From viruses. Of course, they are likely so different that our diseases won't affect them at all.

[crimesaucer]

I have a more positive view of a farmed planet, sort of like this part from Terrence Mckeena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8h88HDs5JI&feature=related

[Ub1476]

Someone here read Dune? Awesome books.. I always like it when "old Terra" and "humans first migration into space" is written.

I guess we'll see some pretty big changes in space knowledge by 50 years. I'm glad I'm young. :)

[earthpigg]

Someone here read Dune? Awesome books.. I always like it when "old Terra" and "humans first migration into space" is written.

I guess we'll see some pretty big changes in space knowledge by 50 years. I'm glad I'm young. :)

everything about that post is worthy of a +1 from me.

+1!!!

[handy]

I have a more positive view of a farmed planet, sort of like this part from Terrence Mckeena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8h88HDs5JI&feature=related

Are you aware of the audio recordings on this page?

http://www.sheldrake.org/Trialogues/

I love to bathe in the wisdom of great minds, & these three are right up there.

[DrMega]

I would like to have a war with aliens. The unification of the human species would finally succeed and all the resources humanity has to offer will be focused on defeating that alien monster. Now there will not be any human killing human on a mass level using our military, it will be humans trying to kill the aliens. Even if the aliens are peaceful, waging war with them is the best chance for human survival, unless they could cure HIV/aids, hunger, poverty, and the like. :)

Hmmm, let me think now. An alien threat might unite human society. Ok.

So having learned of the threat, Iran and North Korea (among others) start on a massive program of developing powerful weapons. America finds out and tells them to stop, but they won't because they insist it is for Earth defence. America gets uncomfortable about this and decides to attack the weapon factories. Russia gets uncomfortable at America actions and we end up with a big stand off. All missiles which were pointing out over, now point in over between US territories and former soviet territories, and much disinformation and propaganda is circulated by all parties.

Meanwhile an alien space craft appears over, lets say Russian airspace. The Russians think it is an American plane or missile, and open fire for violating its airspace. America denies it is theirs and Russia think they're lying, so the tension mounts further. Having been shot at, the aliens now perceive us as hostile, so war is waged. Lets consider the odds. The aliens have the technology to travel great distances. Our best fighters can manage just a few thousand miles without refueling. The aliens must have the ability to travel astronomical distances in relatively short times. Our best fighters can manage just over 1000 miles per hour when carrying a full payload. The aliens maybe studied us remotely for a while before deciding it was safe to visit. They know about us, our cities, our anatomy, our environment, our technolgy. We know nothing about them.

So, if there are aliens who would come here, I suspect any war with them would not go very well at all for us.

[mips]

Meanwhile an alien space craft appears over, lets say Russian airspace. The Russians think it is an American plane or missile, and open fire for violating its airspace. America denies it is theirs and Russia think they're lying, so the tension mounts further. Having been shot at, the aliens now perceive us as hostile, so war is waged. Lets consider the odds. The aliens have the technology to travel great distances. Our best fighters can manage just a few thousand miles without refueling. The aliens must have the ability to travel astronomical distances in relatively short times. Our best fighters can manage just over 1000 miles per hour when carrying a full payload. The aliens maybe studied us remotely for a while before deciding it was safe to visit. They know about us, our cities, our anatomy, our environment, our technolgy. We know nothing about them.

So, if there are aliens who would come here, I suspect any war with them would not go very well at all for us.


You dont need hi tech to beat the aliens, this is all you need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXULwgzezUg

[DrMega]

I belive in aliens :) but i don`t know if they are more advanced than us. Sending a message is a good ideea, it can answer the big question... how it will answer we`ll see :))

The message was only sent to one planet, and the messages sent were from ordinary users of Bebo and Facebook, so that makes the chance of it being understood very, very remote.

For it to be received and recognised as a message, all of the following criteria must be met:

* The aliens that live there (if any) would have to have both the interest and the ability to build radio equipment.
* They would have to have a sensitive unidirectional antenna pointing in our direction at a very specific point in time
* The message was encoded as binary, so they would have to be able to decipher our encoding system (presumably binary representations of our alphabet characters)

Assuming that they do all of that, then for the message to be understand, they would need to have some understanding of how our language might work.

Consider this, on earth we know that many species of animal are capable of complex communication. We've known this for years, but we can't have a conversation with other animals because we can't decipher then system. We know that whales use whistles and pops, or that ants and wasps use pheromones, or that honeybees have the "waggle dance". We know they are communicating but we don't understand their "language". The same is likely to be true of any alien species.

[billgoldberg]

The message was only sent to one planet, and the messages sent were from ordinary users of Bebo and Facebook, so that makes the chance of it being understood very, very remote.

For it to be received and recognised as a message, all of the following criteria must be met:

* The aliens that live there (if any) would have to have both the interest and the ability to build radio equipment.
* They would have to have a sensitive unidirectional antenna pointing in our direction at a very specific point in time
* The message was encoded as binary, so they would have to be able to decipher our encoding system (presumably binary representations of our alphabet characters)

Assuming that they do all of that, then for the message to be understand, they would need to have some understanding of how our language might work.

Consider this, on earth we know that many species of animal are capable of complex communication. We've known this for years, but we can't have a conversation with other animals because we can't decipher then system. We know that whales use whistles and pops, or that ants and wasps use pheromones, or that honeybees have the "waggle dance". We know they are communicating but we don't understand their "language". The same is likely to be true of any alien species.

True, but even if they don't understand the message, they'll know it's from an intelligent species and might come to investigate.

Or they might come to "exterminate" us.

http://scratch.tplus1.com/decoratortalk/dalek.jpg

[Dragonbite]

I would imagine that either aliens

could warp space and time to reach us in a "reasonable" amount of time
have advanced healthcare so much they can live a LOT longer than humans and so spending a few human generations lifespan time traveling is like going to grandma's house when you were young (took a long time, but didn't age you like you thought it would)
instead of sending biologically based creatures through space, advance robotics enough to send androids or specialized robots to make "first coontact" and possibly offer a race-swap (send us your embreos and we'll send you ours and we'll cross-pollinate our planets)
perfect cloning and brain-transplanting so you can travel the distance and just keep transplanting your brain into a new perfectly-matching clone! (once Alzheimer has been cured)


And thus I would suspect human's chances in space may be to follow one of these concepts, with Robots (and AI) currently our best chance.

[DrMega]

True, but even if they don't understand the message, they'll know it's from an intelligent species and might come to investigate.

Or they might come to "exterminate" us.


If they send daleks, lets hope it is the old kind (before they could fly). Then all we have to do is lure them to the top of some steps (give them a ramp with some one way barriers on), then kick them down.

Britain will be safe. Many of our roads are in such disrepair that the daleks won't be able to move, and even the "good" roads have speed bumps every 10 yards or so. Besides, if we lure the daleks into some of our grotty estates, the chavs will just hotwire them, and burn them out.

[crimesaucer]

Are you aware of the audio recordings on this page?

http://www.sheldrake.org/Trialogues/

I love to bathe in the wisdom of great minds, & these three are right up there.


I agree. I read the first version of "Trialogues at the Edge of the West" back in 1998, I loved that book. I want to read "The Evolutionary Mind" next, as well as the rest of Terrence Mckenna's work.


I actually just found those youtube videos, I'm about halfway through them..... I also found a torrent of them, downloaded it, but haven't listened to it yet: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3685143/Psychedelic_Salon_-_Trialogues_-_Terence_McKenna__Ralph_Abraham_

[handy]

You dont need hi tech to beat the aliens, this is all you need http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXULwgzezUg

I was trying to remember the name of that movie with Jack Nicholson in it. :-)

[handy]

I agree. I read the first version of "Trialogues at the Edge of the West" back in 1998, I loved that book. I want to read "The Evolutionary Mind" next, as well as the rest of Terrence Mckenna's work.


I actually just found those youtube videos, I'm about halfway through them..... I also found a torrent of them, downloaded it, but haven't listened to it yet: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3685143/Psychedelic_Salon_-_Trialogues_-_Terence_McKenna__Ralph_Abraham_

Aren't the all the public Trialogues in .mp3 audio on that page I posted?

[mips]

I was trying to remember the name of that movie with Jack Nicholson in it. :-)

He actually played two roles in that movie :)

As corny as that movie was I enjoyed it.

For those of you wondering, Mars Attacks! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks!)

[Paqman]

I would imagine that either aliens

could warp space and time to reach us in a "reasonable" amount of time
have advanced healthcare so much they can live a LOT longer than humans and so spending a few human generations lifespan time traveling is like going to grandma's house when you were young (took a long time, but didn't age you like you thought it would)
instead of sending biologically based creatures through space, advance robotics enough to send androids or specialized robots to make "first coontact" and possibly offer a race-swap (send us your embreos and we'll send you ours and we'll cross-pollinate our planets)
perfect cloning and brain-transplanting so you can travel the distance and just keep transplanting your brain into a new perfectly-matching clone! (once Alzheimer has been cured)


And thus I would suspect human's chances in space may be to follow one of these concepts, with Robots (and AI) currently our best chance.

Personally I find it far more plausible that we'd be visited by an automated probe (if we ever are visited). But even more likely than that is that we'd simply communicate with them via radio/laser/some other electromagnetic medium. It's easy, cheap and fast.

Of course, there's also the possibility that they'd send a probe that was a radio transmission. A virus-like AI that could infect the internet and be beamed down to us would be an extremely efficient way of delivering a useful payload across vast distances cheaply. As an engineer I find the idea of trying to send thousands of tons of metal spaceship across interstellar distances a bit ridiculous, really. There would surely be much more efficient ways for an advanced civilisation to explore space than building a big clunky ship.

[crimesaucer]

Aren't the all the public Trialogues in .mp3 audio on that page I posted?

You know what, I just skimmed that page and didn't realize that it had all of those links to mp3s. I thought it was just reviewing the books "Trialogues at the Edge of the West" (later published as Chaos, Creativity, and Cosmic Consciousness), and "The Evolutionary Mind".. So, thank you for that link. Now I have it bookmarked in my Terrance Mckenna section.

[ronacc]

we have been broadcasting detectable amounts of radio waves ( I include television and radar ) for approximately 100 years . I don't think one "directed" message makes much difference .the volume of space our radio noise now reaches is 4pi/3*100^3 which assuming 1 star/100 lightyear^3 means it has reached > 40,000 stars . if anyone is listening and gives a damn they already know we are here .

[handy]

You know what, I just skimmed that page and didn't realize that it had all of those links to mp3s. I thought it was just reviewing the books "Trialogues at the Edge of the West" (later published as Chaos, Creativity, and Cosmic Consciousness), and "The Evolutionary Mind".. So, thank you for that link. Now I have it bookmarked in my Terrance Mckenna section.

8-)


we have been broadcasting detectable amounts of radio waves ( I include television and radar ) for approximately 100 years . I don't think one "directed" message makes much difference .the volume of space our radio noise now reaches is 4pi/3*100^3 which assuming 1 star/100 lightyear^3 means it has reached > 40,000 stars . if anyone is listening and gives a damn they already know we are here .

In relative space no one hears your scream, because its just toooooooo big.

I prefer viewing space/time travel from the aspect which appreciates the possibility of consciousness permeating all of space; if so all humanity has to do is evolve its consciousness to travel anywhere - past, present, future, even other incarnations... :guitar:

[etnlIcarus]

This is going to sound like a troll but it really isn't: the discourse in this thread has convinced me beyond any measure of a doubt that, if a technologically advanced species is out there and wants to destroy us, I say let them.

[DrMega]

This is going to sound like a troll but it really isn't: the discourse in this thread has convinced me beyond any measure of a doubt that, if a technologically advanced species is out there and wants to destroy us, I say let them.

It always amuses me when people apply this argument. It is a bit of a contradiction. People usually use this argument in response to their contempt for the narrow minded nature of the human condition, yet by applying this argument they demonstrate that exact same trait, in the form of the narrow minded belief that they are in a position to pass judgement on the entire species.

[etnlIcarus]

I never passed judgement on anyone. If aliens want to wipe us out, they're welcome. Also, get a sense of humour.

[eldragon]

we have been broadcasting detectable amounts of radio waves ( I include television and radar ) for approximately 100 years . I don't think one "directed" message makes much difference .the volume of space our radio noise now reaches is 4pi/3*100^3 which assuming 1 star/100 lightyear^3 means it has reached > 40,000 stars . if anyone is listening and gives a damn they already know we are here .

why is everyone missing the point that transmitted signal power decreases really fast, and considering the distance to the nearest star, i guess we are safe. thats why i believe SETI is just a waste of time and resources :D

[DrMega]

I never passed judgement on anyone. If aliens want to wipe us out, they're welcome. Also, get a sense of humour.

You passed judgement on everyone by saying that aliens are welcome to wipe us out. Then you passed judgement on me by concluding (incorrectly) that I have no sense of humour. In fact unless I'm very much mistaken, I even started my response to your post by point out that your argument amused me. Oh well, never mind.

[Paqman]

why is everyone missing the point that transmitted signal power decreases really fast, and considering the distance to the nearest star, i guess we are safe.

I don't think anyone's missing that point. It goes without saying.

However, given a sensitive enough antenna and enough computer power, you can detect signals a long way away. As I said earlier, issues of signal strength are a technical hurdle, and therefore solvable.


thats why i believe SETI is just a waste of time and resources :D

SETI uses very few resources. They have no radio telescopes of their own to speak of (yet), are funded entirely by donations, and a lot of the data they go over looking for little green men is donated by astronomers doing conventional observations.

Considering the potential impact to civilisation if they succeed, SETI's work is an absolute bargain.

On the research side, their funding of exobiology research will be directly useful for space exploration. So even if SETI never finds any aliens, it will still have been a useful project.

[handy]

8-)
In relative space no one hears your scream, because its just toooooooo big.

I prefer viewing space/time travel from the aspect which appreciates the possibility of consciousness permeating all of space; if so all humanity has to do is evolve its consciousness to travel anywhere - past, present, future, even other incarnations... :guitar:

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/03/jill-bolte-taylors-amazing-ted.html

[Erdaron]

I'm in most agreement with crimesaucer. Aliens probably won't be of one mind. Some might be fanatics who would want to exterminate us, vermin. Some will want to help. Some won't care. Some will be door-to-door salesmen.

Some things that we take as negatives of our civilization - violence, materialism - are a manifestation of the emotional, passionate side of our psyche that is also responsible for the great and inspirational moments in our history. Without this side, we're mere automatons executing prescribed tasks, without a sense of self. I think emotions will live on and ensure a diversity of every society.

On a sidenote, I have a theory about why there are so many alien sightings at some of the ancient sites around the planet. Perhaps, like us, aliens like to indulge in tourism, and go to those sites for the same reasons we do.

And no matter how advanced is your craft, it will never be perfect and will occasionally break down. I'm not at all surprised that aliens crash now and then. I imagine an angry alien kicking his crashed saucer, and cursing up a storm at his Space-Dodge.

[SomeGuyDude]

[~EITHER WAY~, one side will regard the other as animals and casually enslave them.

...

once possible, sending forces to either conquer, enslave, or render others extinct is something i would support.

It's worth pointing out that you're very, very likely projecting what are inherently primitive thought processes. There's no reason to think that by the time we've evolved another few hundred thousand years we're not beyond the petty need to "conquer" every planet we find.

[Grant A.]

It's worth pointing out that you're very, very likely projecting what are inherently primitive thought processes. There's no reason to think that by the time we've evolved another few hundred thousand years we're not beyond the petty need to "conquer" every planet we find.

A few hundred thousand years? Try 5 Million, we'll still be barbaric.

[SomeGuyDude]

A few hundred thousand years? Try 5 Million, we'll still be barbaric.

Less than 150 years ago people in the United States thought enslaving another race of human beings was not only acceptable but desirable. 500 years ago we didn't see any problem with slaughtering an entire nation because they worshipped Jesus in a different way than we did. Imagine where we'll be 150 or 500 years from now.

[crimesaucer]

I'm in most agreement with crimesaucer. Aliens probably won't be of one mind. Some might be fanatics who would want to exterminate us, vermin. Some will want to help. Some won't care. Some will be door-to-door salesmen.

..... or even galactic politicians (campaigning against each other), deciding if they will "drill baby drill", or allow us to build ourselves up to an advanced species.



Some things that we take as negatives of our civilization - violence, materialism - are a manifestation of the emotional, passionate side of our psyche that is also responsible for the great and inspirational moments in our history. Without this side, we're mere automatons executing prescribed tasks, without a sense of self. I think emotions will live on and ensure a diversity of every society.

Very good points.


I feel that if you analyze recorded history, art, religion and myth, from culture to culture, while keeping an open mind and not getting caught up in the linear politics of the present or past, you can see a pattern to the madness.....


..... in fact, who needs a "fictional version" of Aliens to come and enslave us? Why not condition the people to enslave themselves.

[Grant A.]

Less than 150 years ago people in the United States thought enslaving another race of human beings was not only acceptable but desirable. 500 years ago we didn't see any problem with slaughtering an entire nation because they worshipped Jesus in a different way than we did. Imagine where we'll be 150 or 500 years from now.

Not really too far. No matter how you dress up a pig, it's still a pig.

[cardinals_fan]

Prediction:

The first message ever received by human beings from extraterrestrial life will be an advertisement for an all-purpose surface cleaner, with a video of some alien drinking it to prove its safety.

(that isn't funny unless you saw the OxiClean ads with Billy Mays, king of the infomercial)

[earthpigg]

Not really too far. No matter how you dress up a pig, it's still a pig.

i am offended by that remark.

[DrMega]

Less than 150 years ago people in the United States thought enslaving another race of human beings was not only acceptable but desirable. 500 years ago we didn't see any problem with slaughtering an entire nation because they worshipped Jesus in a different way than we did. Imagine where we'll be 150 or 500 years from now.

We just need to look at history to see that we are not becoming less barbaric over time.

We know that as far back as we can trace through historical and archealogical record, there is clear evidence of tribes slaughtering each other.

Fast forward to just 2000 years ago, the Romans invaded and conquered a big chunk of the world. They are have found more efficient ways to kill people than the ancient tribes could. Sticks and stones have been replaced with weapons made of steel.

Fast forward again to 1914. The whole world is at war. This time we had bombs, and heavy artillery, enable us to kill people even more efficiently than ever before.

Fast forward to 1939. Again the world is at war. Technology has moved on such that we now have planes capable of a reasonable range, and capable of carrying larger bombs. Artillery has become much more powerful, and the first effective missiles are used. Poisonous gases are used to kill indiscrimately, entire cities are leveled. Many thousands of innocent civilians are rounded up, tortured and killed just because of their religious beliefs and/or profession. During this war America tests the most efficient way to kill people, dropping two nuclear bombs over the densely populated cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Fast forward again to the 1980s. Two great superpowers, NATO and USSR have developed such military capability that neither side can attack the other without a retaliation that would result in annhilation (read about M.A.D - Mutually Assured Destruction). This is the only reason there is no fight, because both sides know that there could be no winners.

Fast forward to present day. With stealth bombers, supersonic fighters, missiles that can be launched at a precise target from several thousand miles away, the only war that anyone can safely launch is one that they are confident they can win. We still have war, there are two big wars in progress now, in Iraq and Afghanistan. America and Russia would love to fight each other. The only reason they don't is because they both know that neither could win.

Meanwhile, taking military out of the equation, we see ordinary civilians shooting, beating and stabbing each other just as much as ever before.

So if we are going to become more peaceful 500 years from now, we certainly don't want to continue on the current trend.

[ukripper]

I'd like to send -

sudo apt-get Welcome-friends-if-you-exist:guitar:

[etnlIcarus]

You passed judgement on everyone by saying that aliens are welcome to wipe us out. Then you passed judgement on me by concluding (incorrectly) that I have no sense of humour. In fact unless I'm very much mistaken, I even started my response to your post by point out that your argument amused me. Oh well, never mind.Yeah, applying the literal definition of judgement to the idiom passing judgement doesn't work.

[ukripper]

America and Russia would love to fight each other. The only reason they don't is because they both know that neither could win.



I'd say the real reason is Nuclear capability of many nations including Asian countries is stopping world to go on war again, which I believe is a good thing.

[DrMega]

I'd say the real reason is Nuclear capability of many nations including Asian countries is stopping world to go on war again, which I believe is a good thing.

That's as may be, but the point I was getting at is that as a race, we have always been aggressive and I personally see no sign that we are losing that trait, but instead working to find more and more efficient ways to kill each other.

The point being that if our record is anything to go by, then having a few hundred years evolutionary head start on us wouldn't necessarily make for a peaceful race.