What? The Open Source Movement; a Socialist phenomenon?

[BWF89]

One of the fascinating battles taking place on the Web, (and there are a few big ones underway) is the growing war of words between the old-guard (more Web 1.0) capitalists, typified by Microsoft and SAP, and the open-source (more Web 2.0) development community. However, the acrimony seems to be largely flying in one direction.

In a sign that the old guard may be starting to panic about highly collaborative open-source business models, Shai Agassi, president of the product and technology group at SAP, (who also blogs here, hello Shai) claimed that not only was Linux “not innovative” but that it represented “I.P. Socialism”. He is not the first to dredge up cold-war rhetoric to try to discredit Linux-type solutions and dissuade clients from switching. In an interview in January this year, in response to a fairly loaded question about “people clamoring to reform and restrict intellectual-property rights”, Bill Gates said:

“There are some new modern-day sort of communists who want to get rid of the incentive for musicians and moviemakers and software makers under various guises. They don't think that those incentives should exist.” – Hangon, is Bill seriously lumping the IP issues of the Open Source debate in with music and movie piracy? It wasn’t said overtly, but he is inferring this kind of linkage. The “incentives” that Bill is talking about are all regulatory processes that predate the Web, and this I’m afraid makes him sound more and more like yesterday’s man.

Both of these guys are trying to draw a parallel between open-source and left wing politics that is just not there. Communism and Socialism are about central planning and imposing a system without property rights on a populace. Open Source is not about a lack of property rights, it’s about distributed property rights, distributed responsibility and networked rather than hierarchical processes. Open Source, (which really means Open-Control) is a solution born of the Internet. It is TOTALLY about Enterprise, but just not about protecting the (circa 1980’s and 90s) Enterprises.

Not all CEO’s spin the Commie line in relation to Open Source, Jonathan Schwartz, President and COO of Sun Microsystems had this to say on the topic:

“I believe the creation, protection and evolution of intellectual property can accelerate everyone's ability to participate in an open network...And that, surely, should be everyone's common goal with free and open source software. It's not about bringing the competition down, it's about driving global participation up.”
http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=12877_0_5_0_C

[Stormy Eyes]

Why pay attention to such morons? Wasn't it Bruce Perens who said that Karl Marx didn't invent helping one's neighbor? Besides, there's a difference between claiming credit for work and controlling its publication and telling people what they can and cannot do with media that they've purchased.

[Brunellus]

it's good to see that red-baiting isn't a lost art.

I'm beginning to see free software as capitalism, actually, and proprietary software as mercantilism. In the latter, one controls inputs and outputs, manipulating a positive balance of trade for one's own economy at the relative expense of your rivals. In the former, freedom brings growth which benefits all participants.

[23meg]

Wasn't it Bruce Perens who said that Karl Marx didn't invent helping one's neighbor? It was. And what a great quote that is.

The wordplay that they're putting on is just disgusting. It's the same old conservative American vocabulary where Commie = Bad Guy Who Wants To Take Away Your Basic Rights (no offense to Americans). Open source and free culture (a la Lessig) have nothing to do with communism. In fact, open source stands closer to the essence of capitalism than that of communism. If you say socialism, that's another matter; the socialism that today's dead-end capitalism can lead to, the socialism that those like Gates fear has got nothing to do with communism either.

BTW, this is very old news; uncle Bill said these words about a year ago, maybe longer.

[Dragineez]

Why pay attention to such morons?Because they have a whole lot more money than we do. And money buys influence, or at least rent some.

[JimmyJazz]

Hey socialism is wonderful when people are not being forced into being socialist by a tyrant.
I mean nobody is forcing people to work on open source projects but we know that working together is the best way to get things done. Money is great but don't we seek money so that we can acheive a better quality of life? Well then consider if a community working together produces a better piece of software isn't that creating a better quality of life for many people? Isn't that the point of all civialization?

[23meg]

It isn't the point of all civilization, unfortunately, but there indeed is socialism in free software in this sense.

[JimmyJazz]

It isn't the point of all civilization, unfortunately, but there indeed is socialism in free software in this sense.

I should have said "the point of all positive social reform". Basically that being I believe that society is really built in the same way our bodies are made up of cells working together, if one part of the the body is healthy and the rest is sick the healthy part eventually dies along with the rest.

[jc87]

Humanity should work together to evolve , not the other way around .

I for example started writting some time ago a small tutorial which i called "Gnu/Linux for dummies" which gold is to explain to people what is it , main differences , and what you should do if you want to start using it.

I writed it , not for personnal gain , not for satisfy my ego , but just to help other people.

Manny of the people here have done simillar work , being a part of some unofficial project´s to help other users , and as result there are great tools and guides in the ubuntu forum .

Why should we not be free to help other people ? why should we not be free to share your work with the world?

[asimon]

Why should we not be free to help other people ? why should we not be free to share your work with the world?
Yes, why indeed. Because in the long term it can (actually it already does) hurt the profit of some big companies. As a result those companies interfer with legislation to make life of free software developers and users harder. And these laws already hinder us today in certain situations to help other people. My friend has a css-encrypted DVD (legaly buyed) which he wants to play under Linux? Sorry, here were I live it's illegal to point him out to libdvdcss. I can't help him to play this DVD legally under Linux. Or this russian developer who wanted to help blind people to read pdf? He got arrested in USA.

So why should we not be free to share our work with the world or help other people? Because we interfer with the aims of others (companies) and the legislation is not deaf to their interests. The free software community has constantly to fight and do lobbying. Therefore it's dead wrong to ignore these "FOSS is socialism" rants. There are people (even in the government) who believe this talk.

[weasel fierce]

What year is it again ?

[Stormy Eyes]

What year is it again ?

According to the Republicans, it's 1955. Only most of those looters are using 'terrorists' instead of 'communists' to scare the living heeho out of the middle class.

[dueyfinster]

Europe is definately the place to be!, the United States has obscene laws at best. A guy getting arrested for helping the blind? That is crazy!

[Stormy Eyes]

Europe is definately the place to be!, the United States has obscene laws at best. A guy getting arrested for helping the blind? That is crazy!

Europe has its own problems, especially France. Face it: government is the root of most of humanity's problems.

[poptones]

Europe is definately the place to be!

Would that be France, where muslem women are forbidden from wearing head scarves? Or the UK where there has never been freedom of speech and, thanks to the latest round of laws, little else in the way of freedoms as well? Or maybe germany where it is illegal to even defend certain types of speech?

I dunno.. I'd sooner take my chances on the wild, wild west streets of Moscow or St Petersburgh. A decade after the the Wall, how ironic is that?

[Ruso]

Why ppl are so scared of the Socializm?? Is it that bad in ur mind?? If the Open Source is a expression of the socializm in the software, then it is so beautefull!

And for me the Open Source, has some similitudes with the Socializm way to be.

And about the countries, I will prefer living in "any" Europen country rather than in USA, where ppl is so "stupid" to vote twice the man who is killing the ppl for the oil. :(

P.S. And of course each country has some negative and positive points but some of them has more negative then positive! ;~|

[NeoChaosX]

government is the root of most of humanity's problems.

But government is run by other humans. By that logic, the root of humanity's problems is itself.

[asimon]

Why ppl are so scared of the Socializm?? Is it that bad in ur mind?? If the Open Source is a expression of the socializm in the software, then it is so beautefull! Yes, Socialism is super bad in my mind. Tell me one socialistic country which is or was a paradice for the common people? But anyhow, even when put out of contect of software, freedom is a concept completly orthogonal to socialism, isn't it? Actually I don't see what socialism has to do with free software at all, apart from trying to move people away from it From wiki: "Socialism is an ideology with the core belief that a society should exist in which popular collectives control the means of power". This is absolutly NOT what FLOSS is about!

PS: A theoretical 'ideal' socialistic system doesn't count, because of the human factor, which makes everything 'ideal'/'perfect' impossible.

[asimon]

But government is run by other humans. By that logic, the root of humanity's problems is itself.
Patience, everything will get better once artificial (or alien) intelligences take over world rulership ;-)

[BWF89]

And about the countries, I will prefer living in "any" Europen country rather than in USA, where ppl is so "stupid" to vote twice the man who is killing the ppl for the oil. :( |
The people he is killing are the people that want Saddam back in power. You know Saddam? The man who launched gas attacks against entire villages in northern Iraq because they weren't the right race.

[23meg]

Yes, Socialism is super bad in my mind. Tell me one socialistic country which is or was a paradice for the common people? But anyhow, even when put out of contect of software, freedom is a concept completly orthogonal to socialism, isn't it? Actually I don't see what socialism has to do with free software at all, apart from trying to move people away from it From wiki: "Socialism is an ideology with the core belief that a society should exist in which popular collectives control the means of power". This is absolutly NOT what FLOSS is about!

PS: A theoretical 'ideal' socialistic system doesn't count, because of the human factor, which makes everything 'ideal'/'perfect' impossible.
This is a far deprecated definition of socialism. Actual socialism, the one that has been idealized and theorized, has never seen action. There has not ever been a socialist state in the true sense. It's always gone mixed with dictatorship, populism, and indeed, communism.

FOSS has a lot to do with a true socialism, and this socialism is no longer an utopia; it's here, happening today. The very community we create as FOSS users is a socialistic one in its essence, regardless of its ties with capitalism. The dead end that capitalism has brought people cannot and will not lead anywhere other than varying forms of socialism, few of which will resemble the ancient utopian definition of it.

BTW, after the Saddam vs. Bush comments (which do nothing other than reproduce and reinforce the existing opposition) we're almost backyarded..

[asimon]

You know Saddam? The man who launched gas attacks against entire villages in northern Iraq because they weren't the right race.
And the answer in form of white-phosphor, carpet-bombs, killing innocents (collataral damage is the new clean word), and loss of constitutional legality is good and does actually help? Happy world! No, this is definitly no war of good against evil, not in my book. (BTW, I know the history of Europe a teeny tiny little bit and won't say that the europeans are any better than the americans)

Somehow 95% of all "open-source is communism/socialsm/etc."-threads end in Bush vs. rest of the world flame fests.

[poptones]

Doesn't that pretty much equate "the linux community" with the socialist communes of the seventies?

While flipping through the holiday sales flyers I was pretty astounded at the goods for sale: a portable dvd player for 80 bucks, leather jackets for 15 bucks, a 23" flat screen tv for about 200 bucks...

I bought an air conditioner at wal-mart for 90 bucks that has kept my bedroom cool for three summers now. A decade ago that same appliance would have cost me three times that and it still would have been an asian import. Capitalism is no panacea, but capitalism is providing jobs for people in poor countries and the cheap imports allow us to spend more of our dollars on things we need (like food) and thus devote more time to other pursuits... like writing free software.

[asimon]

The dead end that capitalism has brought people cannot and will not lead anywhere other than varying forms of socialism, few of which will resemble the ancient utopian definition of it.
I dunno what you mean with "true socialism". Anyhow, call me pessimistic but I think no ideology will change much for most people or the world large scale. Because we humans are still the same. Most of us are only out for their own profit. We do it in capitalism, in faschism, in socialism, everywhere. The ideologies may change, humans don't (maybe we evolve into something more intelligent in 100,000,000 years or so if we survice).

[23meg]

capitalism is providing jobs for people in poor countries and the cheap imports allow us to spend more of our dollars on things we need (like food) and thus devote more time to other pursuits... like writing free software.So it's perfectly OK that the cheap workpower of people in poor countries gets exploited in big brand owned sweatshops and factories for "us" to keep our system going as it is?

Plus, I don't think writing free software and hacking in general has to be some bourgeois / middle class affair that you perform in the comfort of your warm home thanks to the cheap labor of millions of "others". I still believe it can be subversive; it has the potential to tip the scale and make some of these existing unfair systems choke.

[BWF89]

So it's perfectly OK that the cheap workpower of people in poor countries gets exploited in big brand owned sweatshops and factories for "us" to keep our system going as it is?
Until the working masses rise up against the corperations like we did in America and demand labor unions that will never change. The ball is in their part of the court now.

[23meg]

Until the working masses rise up against the corperations like we did in America and demand labor unions that will never change. The ball is in their part of the court now. Don't forget that this is a chicken and egg situation though; the workforce in underdeveloped countries has to accept the low wages due to the poverty and isolation they are in, for which in turn the developed countries are largely to blame. They're kind of locked in, surrounded on all fronts. That's how today's capitalism works.

[poptones]

Locked in?

No other response to that than "********." Indian call centers are already seeing price pressures from china and other countries. The people working in call centers there have measurably improved their quality of life and that affects their families and their neighbors. And even if every call center packed up and moved out tomorrow that infrastructure remains for the state and the people of the surrounding communities to exploit as they see fit.

I really cannot see how one can be an advocate of all this "socialism" stuff and yet be so blind to positive changes elsewhere. If you don't have spare change in your pocket to give the beggar, the beggar starves completely. There are migrant workers here in the US sending money home to their families every week - but it's "exploitation" and corrupt to bring those jobs to the people where they can stay with their families without facing a life and death struggle over miles of open desert...

[23meg]

OK, once more, I see where you stand, and you see where I stand; I won't go into a three page argument over our ideologies that will lead nowhere. Let me drop the obligatory IMDB link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/) and get out this. And please watch the language.

[super]

I dunno.. I'd sooner take my chances on the wild, wild west streets of Moscow or St Petersburgh. A decade after the the Wall, how ironic is that?
very funny!
but sadly, it's also very true. :(


Government is run by other humans. By that logic, the root of humanity's problems is itself.
somehow i don't see humans solving their own problems. ever!
i mean, is there any form of government that we haven't tried? and does the world look any better now than it did during the dark ages.

you can call me jaded, but it is what it is.

as for open source being part of a social movement. i don't view it that way at all. maybe some people do but i don't.

[poptones]

The reason socialism can work.. sometimes is because it is not an exclusive dogma enforced by law. Would you go to a hospital for treatment that was created in the linux mold? Where there was no robust demand for accreditation, where the doctors and their aids were simply very avid amateurs being funded by donation? I could show you pictures of Hospitals you would not take your dog for treatment - which is ironic since there were dogs wandering the halls.

Socialism can work as part of a balance. The freedom to pursue capitalist interests i sthe other side of that balance and it is every bit as necessary. I'll remind you the forums we are using now exist only through one of those "evil" corporations... no idealistic Billionaire: no ubuntu - and no need for any ubuntu forums; perhaps you should save your link for Mark at the next community meeting.

I wasn't joking about russia. You may find it funny, but I find it sad what the people of the US have allowed to become of the governance of this nation.

[Malphas]

The people he is killing are the people that want Saddam back in power. You know Saddam? The man who launched gas attacks against entire villages in northern Iraq because they weren't the right race.
This argument doesn't really work when America was selling him the pathogens to use against his own people when Bush's dad was in power.

[jc87]

About being Europe the right place to live ... that depends of the country.

I for example i´m portuguese (my country can be locate in the map being at the left side of spain , but remeber that we are a total independent country , i say this because many people "thinks" that portugal is part of spain) , and i can say that unfortunaly my country sucks :( .

I dont say this because i hate my country (actually i love it) , but our corrupt and stupid govern screws it all ( if i tell some dailly stories about our public funtion you cound´t stop laughthing) , and many "serious" people are emigrating to places that in general are not a joke.

[Pablo_Escobar]

and i can say that unfortunaly my country sucks :(
jc87, I can say that also about my country - Poland (which I love, but can't stand the dumb decisions of politicians) :(

Heh, I believe that all countries have some advantages and disadvantages. Some have more of one kind while the others the other.

[bwog]

Where I live we have political parties who call themselves Social Democrats. The democrat part of the name is important, people can vote on them but also have the option to remove them from goverment by voting on other parties. It is obviously good to have this choice. These are modern parties and old definition of Socialism do not aplly to them. What is very wrong about communism is that it leads to a dictatorial regime.

When the majority wants an extreme form of capitalism, who can object to that? However, capitalism needs a strong (regulating) government.

This has nothing to do with open source, calling open source communist or socialist is just shouting abuse.