Linux MSI Netbooks Are Returned 4X More Than Win XP Versions

[mips]

http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-netbooks-are-returned-4x-more-than-win-xp-versions-says-msi

Thanks Shippou!

[kernelhaxor]

Unfortunate but wat can I say .. ppl hate the learning curve ..

Since Linux wud be new to most ppl, I think buyers of Linux netbooks shud be provided with a book/CD some kinda learning resource which helps them to learn Linux ..

I personally dont own a netbook .. did any of you get such a thing when u bought ur linux netbook?

[smoker]

People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store.

i would say this is mostly the fault of retailers, they should make sure people know exactly what they are buying, eg, have demo machines set up in shop, and maybe some website videos on retail sites, or at least PROMINENT information displayed that buyers are not buying 'windows!'

[OldTimeTech]

Interestingly I find most Linux notebooks are either built on outdated laptops or laptops that have no way of upgrading.

Both notebooks that I run, came to me with Vista, which I totally wiped and then I loaded Ubuntu 8.04....both run without any problems, even the cameras.

At least that's been my experience.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Some things:

-Manufacturers need to start using decent distributions. It baffles me that they so consistently choose to use such bad ones. Either Linspire and Xandros throw away all of their money marketing to hardware manufacturers, or the manufacturers are dumber than I think.

-Manufacturers need to apply effort to building good systems where hardware and software support each other. It is not hard; I can do it on my spare time. They are payed to do it and manage to fail miserably.

-People and corporations need to stop marketing Linux-based operating systems as "Linux". It is completely inappropriate in many ways. Firstly they are diluting the Linux "brand" (and it amazes me Linus lets it happen to this extent, since it is about to become very poisonous). Secondly, they are not running Linux; they are running Ubuntu, or Suse, or Xandros or Linspire. It just confuses people and creates misinformation when they say "this computer runs Linux" and expect that to mean something.
I think free software advocates should really take a stand against misinformation being spread by the manufacturers, since that is one of the reasons why users have so much trouble figuring this stuff out. Because so many users are clueless amongst all the meaningless and inaccurate jargon, companies like Microsoft can freely control them.

[LaRoza]

I don't think that is all that significant.

More people use Windows than Linux. I doubt any Linux users are returning them.

[bp1509]

d

[pp.]

I doubt any Linux users are returning them.

I am not quite sure what you are telling with that. While it might be true that Linux users do not usually return them, Windows users buy and return them in flocks, or so it seems. One of our local dealers has stopped selling the eee and stocks only the Acer netbook with Windows.

[LaRoza]

Fact of the matter is, most of the people i talk to, professionally and personally, really don't like most MS products, but they patiently wait for the next upgrade in the hopes it'll be better, b/c familiarity with something thats a PITA is easier than switching to something else, including macs.

Yeah, but we are not most people.


I am not quite sure what you are telling with that. While it might be true that Linux users do not usually return them, Windows users buy and return them in flocks, or so it seems. One of our local dealers has stopped selling the eee and stocks only the Acer netbook with Windows.

I am saying that we shouldn't be fanatical, and support efforts we...support. It is one thing to say the netbooks with Linux aren't good or popular, but it is another to buy one. Which says more? I have ordered a Dell 910, with Ubuntu. I did my part. I don't care about others in this. If people are going to buy Windows machines then install Linux instead of buying Linux pre-installed, the OEM's are going to go along with that. If we buy the Linux boxen in great enough numbers, they will sell them.

[cardinals_fan]

I am not quite sure what you are telling with that. While it might be true that Linux users do not usually return them, Windows users buy and return them in flocks, or so it seems. One of our local dealers has stopped selling the eee and stocks only the Acer netbook with Windows.
If they don't want Linux, why is that my problem? The manufacturers should let them know what they're in for.

[pp.]

If they don't want Linux, why is that my problem? The manufacturers should let them know what they're in for.

It's not a problem per se. However, being part of a minority which prefers some kind of products brings the usual problem of the desired product disappearing from the market.

It happens with organic vegetables, some kinds of books, fuel efficient cars and it might happen with linux-driven netbooks.

[cardinals_fan]

It's not a problem per se. However, being part of a minority which prefers some kind of products brings the usual problem of the desired product disappearing from the market.

It happens with organic vegetables, some kinds of books, fuel efficient cars and it might happen with linux-driven netbooks.
I wasn't aware that Linus Torvalds was dropping the Linux kernel, or that Red Hat was going bankrupt. I see no danger of Linux disappearing from the market.

[pp.]

I wasn't aware that Linus Torvalds was dropping the Linux kernel, or that Red Hat was going bankrupt. I see no danger of Linux disappearing from the market.

Actually, Linux is not on the market, as far as I am aware. I haven't noticed the local supermarkets keeping stocks of Kernels.

We're talking about Linux-driven Netbook PCs. Being unable to buy a Linux-driven Netbook PC can greatly inconvenience people wanting to use such a device in two respects: The hardware may or may not be easy to support with any readily available Linux distro. The price of the device includes a Windows license which is an appreciable part of the retail price of the device.

[TheSlipstream]

If they don't want Linux, why is that my problem? The manufacturers should let them know what they're in for.

This attitude is poisonous. No, it's not your problem, or my problem, or anyone but the retailers and manufacturers problem, but sometimes people like to know about things like this that concern the things that interest them. That's why National Geographic is so successful.

[LaRoza]

I wasn't aware that Linus Torvalds was dropping the Linux kernel, or that Red Hat was going bankrupt. I see no danger of Linux disappearing from the market.

I think he means Linux netbooks, not Linux.

I think Linux will continue to rise in OEM's. Some may not work out so well, but I don't think it will go backwards in the long term.

[Krydahl]

Sad, but probably not surprising.

I'm typing this from an eee (a linux version) and I have to say I really disliked the pre-installed version (replaced it with the Ubuntu netbook remix). I probably disliked it for a whole different set of reasons to those a Windows user would have had, but it seemed to me to be neither one thing nor the other. It didn't quite behave like Windows (though it looked like it in a lot of ways) and it didn't do quite what I expected from a linux distro either.

It seems to me that netbook manufacturers should be building a UI that works for their users, not trying to ape windows - or hang onto the gnome menu items like the ubuntu remix does.

[pp.]

I think he means Linux netbooks, not Linux.

Thank you. I not only mean that very thing, I also wrote that.

[LaRoza]

It seems to me that netbook manufacturers should be building a UI that works for their users, not trying to ape windows - or hang onto the gnome menu items like the ubuntu remix does.

I'll let everyone know how the Dell 910 is. It comes with Ubuntu, and hopefully, not a negative one (it is based on Ubuntu, I don't know their exact changes)


Thank you. I not only mean that very thing, I also wrote that.

Yes, that is how I knew :-) Must have seen "disappear from the market" and paniced.

[zmjjmz]

Some things:

-Manufacturers need to start using decent distributions. It baffles me that they so consistently choose to use such bad ones. Either Linspire and Xandros throw away all of their money marketing to hardware manufacturers, or the manufacturers are dumber than I think.

-Manufacturers need to apply effort to building good systems where hardware and software support each other. It is not hard; I can do it on my spare time. They are payed to do it and manage to fail miserably.

-People and corporations need to stop marketing Linux-based operating systems as "Linux". It is completely inappropriate in many ways. Firstly they are diluting the Linux "brand" (and it amazes me Linus lets it happen to this extent, since it is about to become very poisonous). Secondly, they are not running Linux; they are running Ubuntu, or Suse, or Xandros or Linspire. It just confuses people and creates misinformation when they say "this computer runs Linux" and expect that to mean something.
I think free software advocates should really take a stand against misinformation being spread by the manufacturers, since that is one of the reasons why users have so much trouble figuring this stuff out. Because so many users are clueless amongst all the meaningless and inaccurate jargon, companies like Microsoft can freely control them.

+1
Seriously, let me list the offenses:
Asus chooses a locked down version of Xandros over more suitable distros.
MSI chooses SLED for a lightweight laptop.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Here is an analogy for the "end user distro is not just Linux" thing:
It's like calling a Porsche a "gasoline engine with a metal chassis," then turning around and saying the same about a Hundai Pony. Sure, they have similar principles behind the scenes, but the two are VERY different.

Another case of end-used software hurting peoples' impressions of the middleware is Nokia's Internet Tablets, which are really neat little devices (and I love my N810) but have without a doubt the most disgustingly butchered implementation of Debian repositories I have ever seen. People often post on community discussions to the tune of "Debian is confusing and broken!".

[Helios1276]

some things:

-manufacturers need to start using decent distributions. It baffles me that they so consistently choose to use such bad ones. Either linspire and xandros throw away all of their money marketing to hardware manufacturers, or the manufacturers are dumber than i think.

-manufacturers need to apply effort to building good systems where hardware and software support each other. It is not hard; i can do it on my spare time. They are payed to do it and manage to fail miserably.

-people and corporations need to stop marketing linux-based operating systems as "linux". It is completely inappropriate in many ways. Firstly they are diluting the linux "brand" (and it amazes me linus lets it happen to this extent, since it is about to become very poisonous). Secondly, they are not running linux; they are running ubuntu, or suse, or xandros or linspire. It just confuses people and creates misinformation when they say "this computer runs linux" and expect that to mean something.
I think free software advocates should really take a stand against misinformation being spread by the manufacturers, since that is one of the reasons why users have so much trouble figuring this stuff out. Because so many users are clueless amongst all the meaningless and inaccurate jargon, companies like microsoft can freely control them.

+1

[cardinals_fan]

This attitude is poisonous. No, it's not your problem, or my problem, or anyone but the retailers and manufacturers problem, but sometimes people like to know about things like this that concern the things that interest them. That's why National Geographic is so successful.
This doesn't concern the things that interest me. A netbook with Linux preinstalled offers me nothing of interest.

Thank you. I not only mean that very thing, I also wrote that.
Ah yes, now I know I'm losing it #-o

[sloggerkhan]

IMO if they get returned at disproportionate rates, it's because they choose crappy distros that don't work properly and put linux on the ones with stupid specs.

[cardinals_fan]

IMO if they get returned at disproportionate rates, it's because they choose crappy distros that don't work properly and put linux on the ones with stupid specs.
I think it's because most people have a limited understanding of what an operating system is. They assume that any OS will run their apps, and once they realize there's no Microsoft Office or Photoshop for Linux, they want their familiar Windows back.

[Perpetual]

I wonder where you can buy these returned netbooks. I wouldn't mind buying one at a reduced 'refurbished' price.

[MyNameIsDerek85]

I agree with Mr. Pickelsworth that manufactorers need to start using decent distributions like Ubuntu and limit it to one or two distributions. Maybe pre-install a user-friendly distribution like Ubuntu and then throw in a couple live CD's.

However, as much as I love linux, I don't think it's quite ready for the average consumer right now. we're getting there, but we have only begun to touch the surface. We are so proud of the distributions that have set out to make things easier for the average consumer that we sometimes forget that we just touched the surface and have only begun to reach a point that we can truly be considered competition. That being said, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.

- Linux has become much easier then it previously was, but it's still not easy enough. An average consumer wants to be able to power-up his PC and not have to look at that boring program titled "Terminal". The average user does not want to open numerous applications to customize his desktop (get all those flashy effects, customize his desktop, etc). The average user sure as hell doesn't want to use the terminal to install something as simple as flash or Opera.

- Linux needs to be gamer friendly. It's the advantage that Microsoft has over Apple and both operating systems have over Linux. Of course, that's not the developers fault. Fact of the matter is that most gaming companies don't make games for Linux. I guess what we really need is a breakthrough freeware PC game that is exclusively for Linux to pursuade devolopers to start making games for Linux and gamers to switch to Linux.

- Although many freeware has caught up to the big boys, a lot of the alternatives pre-installed with Linux still looks like a light version of the corporate versions. For Linux to stand up to the competition, the software not only needs to be just as good, it needs to be better! That would give someone a reason to switch. Especially since most of the competitions software doesn't run on Linux, even with Wine installed.

Amongst other reasons. The fact of the matter is that although the distributions are becoming simpler, they still haven't given consumers enough to wow them away from what they're used to. Apple on the other hand has and that's why they're only growing right now and why they are Windows biggest threat.

[cardinals_fan]

- Linux has become much easier then it previously was, but it's still not easy enough. An average consumer wants to be able to power-up his PC and not have to look at that boring program titled "Terminal". The average user does not want to open numerous applications to customize his desktop (get all those flashy effects, customize his desktop, etc). The average user sure as hell doesn't want to use the terminal to install something as simple as flash or Opera.
The terminal is not necessary on a machine with any distro preinstalled correctly.

[Therion]

Hardly surprising. At that price-point people are going to buy them. Period. Notebooks are still hot sellers year-'round and even if they do know they're NOT getting a Windows install for that price they'll try whatever it does come with.

Then they hit the learning curve of course, and get frustrated because they didn't come to Linux deliberately, but were lured in by the hardware's low price-point. Since they weren't introduced to it in a positive, structured way they'll probably form negative opinions about Linux in general.

[MyNameIsDerek85]

The terminal is not necessary on a machine with any distro preinstalled correctly.

Really? I installed my version of Ubuntu as directed and in the five days that I have had Ubuntu on my laptop, I have had to use it at least once a day for some reason or another (one of those reasons was to get my wireless internet connection going). When I installed flash on my Opera browser I had to use the terminal to direct it to the Opera folder. Sometimes when I'm installing a program that's already pre-installed with Opera, I find myself being directed toward the terminal to update it or complete the install.

None of which is extremely complicated stuff on Apple OR Microsoft.

[Therion]

Really? I installed my version of Ubuntu as directed ...
Then it wasn't "pre-installed", was it?

[cardinals_fan]

Really? I installed my version of Ubuntu as directed and in the five days that I have had Ubuntu on my laptop, I have had to use it at least once a day for some reason or another (one of those reasons was to get my wireless internet connection going). When I installed flash on my Opera browser I had to use the terminal to direct it to the Opera folder. Sometimes when I'm installing a program that's already pre-installed with Opera, I find myself being directed toward the terminal to update it or complete the install.

None of which is extremely complicated stuff on Apple OR Microsoft.
Which is why I specifically said that the terminal would not be needed if Ubuntu (or most other distros) were competently preinstalled. All hardware issues would be handled by the OEM.

As for Opera, it should automatically detect the Mozilla flash plugin (which can be installed graphically).

[MyNameIsDerek85]

Then it wasn't "pre-installed", was it?

Just got what the other guy was talking about, but still, updating a program or installing a new program can get quite frustrating for the average user even on a notebook pre-installed with Linux.

[tbroderick]

I think it's because most people have a limited understanding of what an operating system is. They assume that any OS will run their apps, and once they realize there's no Microsoft Office or Photoshop for Linux, they want their familiar Windows back.

Exactly. Plus, if people are buying these as a second or third computer, it's likely they have already bought various software over the years for Windows and were expecting them to run on their netbook.

[cardinals_fan]

Just got what the other guy was talking about, but still, updating a program or installing a new program can get quite frustrating for the average user even on a notebook pre-installed with Linux.
Not if the distro is managed properly.

[3rdalbum]

It's probably due to the EeePC version of Xandros having XP-style window borders that makes people think that they're buying the XP version. And then when they get it home they find out that it's not the case.

I blame the retailers.

[aysiu]

People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know what they get until they open the box. Well, that appears to be your problem, then, Andy Tung. If you're selling things and people don't know what they're buying, then you're not selling them correctly.

When Apple started selling iPods, did they just put them into retail stores and not educate people about how to use them or what they were or what to expect? Nope. iPods were new to most folks (who were not previously using RCA or Creative players - they were using CD players), and Apple knew they had to sell them in the Apple store and train their employees to answer questions intelligently about them and let customers play around with them in the store. Apple knew they had to advertise the iPod and make it sound cool.

Right now, outside of the tech news and among techies, netbooks are almost a secret, and the Linux ones are even more so.

The main problem (Windows XP or not) is that people expect these to be laptops and not netbooks. The netbook concept hasn't been drilled into people's heads. It's somewhere between a smart phone/cell phone and a laptop. It is not a laptop.

Yeah, my wife can't copy and paste stuff on her iPhone or install applications that aren't in the App Store. Does she care? Does she feel limited? Well, a little, but she loves her iPhone and would never return it, because it was marketed correctly, and she knows it's not a laptop replacement. She knows what it's for.

Basically Andy Tung from MSI is saying (my paraphrase): "We decided to sell a new product to people without telling them what it is or what to expect from it, so the customers made up their own expectations and were rightly disappointed."

[aysiu]

I blame the retailers. Ditto.

If marketing didn't matter, there wouldn't be marketing. But marketing is huge, and advertisements cost a lot of money and companies pay for that advertising, because they know how important it is... or should know, anyway.

[tariquepark]

Over here in australia, we must be way behind the rest of the world!
I went looking to buy a new laptop for the mrs, and given that Ubuntu is the only os on her desktop I thought i would save some time and get one with ubuntu or any other distro preinstalled.
NOPE
the first three shops said "what is linux?" after a brief explanation i got "never heard of it"
"can i buy one with no os on it?"
answer "no"
i didnt want to pay for a windows license without having a copy so i ask "do i get a vista install disk with it?"
"no"
"so if i install ubuntu on here then i have just blown the cost of a ms license?"
"no you can reinstall though" he says proudly
how do i do that without an install disk?
"ummmm....." was the response
after more that a dozen shops all with the same sort of responses i found a shop that said "all our laptops come with vista preinstalled but i would be happy to make a full ghost recovery image andput it on a bootable dvd for you if you like? that way you can install ubuntu or we can do it for you for $50 which is just for our time"
needless to say i bought the laptop from him and he made the image for me(i installed ubuntu myself) but i still gave him the 50 bucks in the hope that he will continue to think "outside the square" and realise that customer service is key
for very little effort he put 50 bucks in his pocket, made the sale of just over 1000 bucks for his boss and ongoing sales (my mums in the market too) and i tell everyone about this store and the great service provided
just goes to show MARKETING IS EVERYTHING
:) :)

[FuturePilot]

It's probably due to the EeePC version of Xandros having XP-style window borders that makes people think that they're buying the XP version. And then when they get it home they find out that it's not the case.

I blame the retailers.


Well, that appears to be your problem, then, Andy Tung. If you're selling things and people don't know what they're buying, then you're not selling them correctly.

When Apple started selling iPods, did they just put them into retail stores and not educate people about how to use them or what they were or what to expect? Nope. iPods were new to most folks (who were not previously using RCA or Creative players - they were using CD players), and Apple knew they had to sell them in the Apple store and train their employees to answer questions intelligently about them and let customers play around with them in the store. Apple knew they had to advertise the iPod and make it sound cool.

Right now, outside of the tech news and among techies, netbooks are almost a secret, and the Linux ones are even more so.

The main problem (Windows XP or not) is that people expect these to be laptops and not netbooks. The netbook concept hasn't been drilled into people's heads. It's somewhere between a smart phone/cell phone and a laptop. It is not a laptop.

Yeah, my wife can't copy and paste stuff on her iPhone or install applications that aren't in the App Store. Does she care? Does she feel limited? Well, a little, but she loves her iPhone and would never return it, because it was marketed correctly, and she knows it's not a laptop replacement. She knows what it's for.

Basically Andy Tung from MSI is saying (my paraphrase): "We decided to sell a new product to people without telling them what it is or what to expect from it, so the customers made up their own expectations and were rightly disappointed."

I agree.

[jrusso2]

When they started releasing XP for the UMPC and pricing it the same as Linux I predicted it would quickly over take Linux, shooting down Linux again from the one chance they had at any desktop market share.

When will they learn, not everyone is a techie?

[LaRoza]

IMO if they get returned at disproportionate rates, it's because they choose crappy distros that don't work properly and put linux on the ones with stupid specs.

Well, the problem is that Linux users are different. If the Windows users don't like Linux, they return it, if the Linux user doesn't like Windows, they install Linux.

How many of these are undocumented: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5909551&postcount=45

(I hear from people who used them, Ubuntu runs well)

[EdThaSlayer]

Well, at least some people have been exposed to Linux! One day, they might think when upset with Windows, "A couple of years back, I used something else..." and through searching the net find their answer. :)

[billgoldberg]

http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-netbooks-are-returned-4x-more-than-win-xp-versions-says-msi

Thanks Shippou!

No shocker here.

[mips]

No shocker here.

Nope, you are correct but as can be seen from the responses here it shakes a few peoples foundations ;)

[sc0tt10]

I just wish the retailers explained what the buyers would be in for instead of a load of cheap marketing ploys, as the main reason windows users return Linux Netbooks is due to unfamiliarity with the OS, clearly, better educated lapdogs are needed.

[init1]

Yeah I know a lot of closed minded people who wouldn't even consider learning to use a new OS. Their loss, I suppose. I did see someone with an EEEPC at a coffee shop yesterday. Don't know if it ran Linux or Windows though.

[joninkrakow]

The terminal is not necessary on a machine with any distro preinstalled correctly.

Unfortunately, not true, as we just discovered yesterday. My wife's eeePC has been acting up, the dcopserver keeps bombing, and the whole machine was running horribly slow. I knew the hard drive must be full, but the file browser only allows me access to the Home folder and below. My wife did some digging on the web and discovered that the /var/tmp folder somehow fills up, and must have everything deleted--manually. The file browser wouldn't let me get there. I had to pop open the term (she was too afraid to at this point), and first trying midnight commander (somehow it's installed!), and then the command line directly, I had to manually delete everything. Worse, even though you are "root" on this device, I had to use _sudo_ to get everything to delete. Go figure! It turns out that this seems to be a common problem with the Xandros install on the eee, that the tmp folder fills up, and somehow, chron or nothing else purges it. Something is screwed up with the Xandros default install. Probably a permissions issue, since sudo was needed. In any case, I am going to look for a way to automate the emptying of this folder so the problem doesn't repeat itself.

Oddly, my wife much prefers Xandros to Windows or Ubuntu, in general. It's just these really odd problems that scare her.

-Jon

[geoken]

I don't get it. There seems to be a recurring theme in this thread that these netbook makers should take time to point out that Linux != Windows, yet when Dell did the same they were flamed in these forums because people thought they were trying to dissuade people from buying the Linux version.

[aysiu]

I don't get it. There seems to be a recurring theme in this thread that these netbook makers should take time to point out that Linux != Windows, yet when Dell did the same they were flamed in these forums because people thought they were trying to dissuade people from buying the Linux version.
It was in the phrasing of it. You can make it sound like "It's not Windows. We're warning you" or you can make it sound like "It's not Windows. It's something different that may be better for you."

They phrased it in such a way as to sound like the former, not the latter.

[zmjjmz]

Unfortunately, [rant]
-Jon
But it wasn't pre-installed correctly then, right?

[cardinals_fan]

Unfortunately, not true, as we just discovered yesterday. My wife's eeePC has been acting up, the dcopserver keeps bombing, and the whole machine was running horribly slow. I knew the hard drive must be full, but the file browser only allows me access to the Home folder and below. My wife did some digging on the web and discovered that the /var/tmp folder somehow fills up, and must have everything deleted--manually. The file browser wouldn't let me get there. I had to pop open the term (she was too afraid to at this point), and first trying midnight commander (somehow it's installed!), and then the command line directly, I had to manually delete everything. Worse, even though you are "root" on this device, I had to use _sudo_ to get everything to delete. Go figure! It turns out that this seems to be a common problem with the Xandros install on the eee, that the tmp folder fills up, and somehow, chron or nothing else purges it. Something is screwed up with the Xandros default install. Probably a permissions issue, since sudo was needed. In any case, I am going to look for a way to automate the emptying of this folder so the problem doesn't repeat itself.

Oddly, my wife much prefers Xandros to Windows or Ubuntu, in general. It's just these really odd problems that scare her.

-Jon
See below...

But it wasn't pre-installed correctly then, right?

[joninkrakow]

But it wasn't pre-installed correctly then, right?

How do you define "correctly"? It has worked months now without any problem. Is it a problem with the install? A single program misbehaving? or what? Unless you know for certain that it is a problem with the install, then the rhetoric question is merely an expression of prejudice. Obviously, this problem is not universal, but it is common enough that the solution is both known, and relatively "painless" insofar as that goes--but how many people would be willing to figure that out? My wife, for the first time in her usage of Linux was near giving up. Of course, if it had been a Windows computer, she would have been in the same boat--and I much more quickly found problems with my Wind under Windows (try the first few seconds, and within a week of _extremely_ minimal usage, had a practically unusable Windows install--I ended up wiping and now have a dual-boot Linux/OSX Wind) ;-)

The thing is, all computers will have problems--in the end, it's both unfamiliarity and lack of experience/knowledge at how to fix the problem that causes people to give up on something. To blame the manufacturer or seller for returned Linux computers is simply ignoring the vagaries of human nature, and peoples' fear of the unknown. It's life--and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. BTW, the Asus, at least, was billed as a simple computer for connecting to the internet, and little more. In that, it works fantastic, and has lasted my wife 6 months with absolutely no problems. She, at least, is very happy with the default Xandros install... happier than she would have been with Windows, in fact. I, for one, am _not_ complaining...

-Jon

[davidryder]

Linux has a really long way to go before it's ready for mainstream users.

It's hard after years of using both OS's to objectively say which is easier to use, but I feel pretty confident that Windows is overall easier to use and harder to break for the average user.

[henke54]

quote from Gewalt :"Seriously, put some videos on there that explain how to do common tasks. Tasks that are better on linux than on windows. (Like finding/installing cool toys/software/games). Make the videos right there on the desktop. Once consumers find out they can do the things they want, and easily, they will like it."
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08/10/05/123253.shtml

[Sealbhach]

As with all statistics this one should be treated with skepticism, we would need to know the overall numbers and how big the return rate actually is in real numbers of boxes.



.

[Calmatory]

Hardware misconfiguration should cause no problems in this case as the hardware should be 100 % compatible with Linux.

If hardware is not the problem, then the problem lies between the chair and the laptop. :) However, this "user blaming" is not getting Ubuntu(Yes, the thread is about Linux in general, but as we are here where we are...) anywhere, at least it is not fixing the bug #1. ;) The cure? Make it easier. Try to make so that Windows users feel the transaction easier. While more experienced Linux users might disagree with this(frankly, so do I), it still helps new users coming to Ubuntu. Whether or not is it good idea to do this is another case. :)

[t0p]

Linux has a really long way to go before it's ready for mainstream users.

It's hard after years of using both OS's to objectively say which is easier to use, but I feel pretty confident that Windows is overall easier to use and harder to break for the average user.

I really don't think Linux's ease-of-use is the issue here. It's more a case of bad advertising. These people are returning the sub-notebooks because they didn't realize the computer came with an os so unlike Windows, and they can't be bothered to learn how to use it. If the ads made it clear that the computers come with Linux and that Linux is not Windows, these folk wouldn't have ordered one in the first place.

Unfortunately, this story is now being used as anti-Linux propaganda online. Check out the newsgroup comp.os.linux.advocacy for such propaganda.

As for the customized Xandros that comes with the eeepc: I wasn't keen on it at all, and quickly installed ubuntu instead. So my eeepc now runs Hardy with no problems at all - even the wireless and the webcam work okay. If you check out the instructions on the eeeuser wiki (http://wiki.eeeuser.com/getting_ubuntu_8.04_to_work_perfectly?s=ubuntu%20e ee%20riceeey), you'll see how to get ubuntu working.

[jespdj]

The title of your topic is wrong. It should have been:

MSI netbooks with Linux are returned 4x more...

It's not about netbooks in general. Maybe MSI is just using a crappy Linux distro on their netbooks.

[davidryder]

I really don't think Linux's ease-of-use is the issue here.

I don't understand why so many of us are so dismissive about ease-of-use and Linux as if it is always some other problem and Linux is as easy to use as Windows. It may not be the issue, but it is almost certainly an issue.

[issih]

To my mind ease of use is totally the wrong term...what we are fighting here is familiarity.

The only way you could ever test "ease of use" would be to take some people who had never used or seen computers before and see how they get on with different OSes. Talking about windows being easier to use is total garbage. A car is easier to use for most people than a hovercraft, simply because you know how to drive a car.

Simply put, microsoft is abusing its monopoly position yet again to try and drive out competition through any means necessary.

Consumers are always going to drift to MS products because they are comfortable with them, not because they are necessarily better. Bad advertising, poor distros and everything else have contributed too, but the biggest change was MS deciding to let xp live a bit longer. Good business practice from them...sucks for us.

[davidryder]

The only way you could ever test "ease of use" would be to take some people who had never used or seen computers before and see how they get on with different OSes. Talking about windows being easier to use is total garbage. A car is easier to use for most people than a hovercraft, simply because you know how to drive a car.


Do you remember when you first came to Linux? Do you remember having to fix any of the dozens of things that broke in the beginning? Do you remember how much you had your nose in the terminal copy+pasting commands? Or are you one of the few that had everything just work and never had to fix anything?

Well, I do. And it wasn't easy by any definition of the term. Consider how easy it is to break Linux vs how easy it is to break Windows. I know you don't have to use the terminal in Linux, but realistically there is little to few people on Linux that don't use the terminal.

I don't know anyone in real life (besides my CE classmates) that would be interested in learning the CLI, changing permissions on their .drmc file, restoring their window borders after a mysterious vanishing act, dealing with getting their laptop wifi working, or any of the other growing pains associated with learning Linux.

That said, I love it. I love tweaking, fixing, learning commands, writing scripts, compiling, customizing, etc. The majority of computer users however just want something that works and is easy to use. I'm not saying this is the only problem but it is certainly one of them.

[Calmatory]

Do you remember when you first came to Linux? Do you remember having to fix any of the dozens of things that broke in the beginning? Do you remember how much you had your nose in the terminal copy+pasting commands? Or are you one of the few that had everything just work and never had to fix anything?

Well, I do. And it wasn't easy by any definition of the term. Consider how easy it is to break Linux vs how easy it is to break Windows. I know you don't have to use the terminal in Linux, but realistically there is little to few people on Linux that don't use the terminal.

I don't know anyone in real life (besides my CE classmates) that would be interested in learning the CLI, changing permissions on their .drmc file, restoring their window borders after a mysterious vanishing act, dealing with getting their laptop wifi working, or any of the other growing pains associated with learning Linux.

That said, I love it. I love tweaking, fixing, learning commands, writing scripts, compiling, customizing, etc. The majority of computer users however just want something that works and is easy to use. I'm not saying this is the only problem but it is certainly one of them.

At first I thought this post was written by myself... Couldn't agree more.

Wifi? Great example is this computer. Under Vista, Wifi works with no problems, out-of-the box fashion. However, under Ubuntu, no chance to get it to work. One can my first posts in UF to see the thread I made. I tried everything people suggested. I browsed threads which granted that "THIS MAKES IT WORK FOR SURE" etc. No luck. It seems it worked for quite much everyone else, but not for me. Then see my first post, another hardware detection related problem which does not occur with XP or Vista.

No wonder someone doesn't feel too happy about Linux if the first thing they run into is hardware problems. May it be unloaded modules or non-existent drivers.

Then again, Windows has it's flaws as well. Blaming operating system for the mistakes the device manufacturers do(no drivers for linux/vista/xp etc) is unnecessary. Blame should be put on where it is being deserved. ;)

*goes to send email to Broadcom*



Simply put, microsoft is abusing its monopoly position yet again to try and drive out competition through any means necessary.

Consumers are always going to drift to MS products because they are comfortable with them, not because they are necessarily better. Bad advertising, poor distros and everything else have contributed too, but the biggest change was MS deciding to let xp live a bit longer. Good business practice from them...sucks for us.



True, can't blame them for being a company though. It would be quite a suicide to not to drive their own agenda. Linux indeed has potential, just like Apple products. But yeah, sucks for us. :|

[issih]

Try installing windows yourself, it is not a walk in the park, second to that, most of the issues that get fixed via a terminal are fixable via a gui if you know how, the only reason terminals get used so much is due to history and the convenience of offering terminal commands on a text based forum.

Using ndiswrapper is a prime example, loads of people get no joy with the native linux drivers (which is in no way ubuntu's fault, but is instead the fault of hardware manufacturers) and end up being advised to install ndiswrapper and use lots of terminal commands to extract files from the relevant .exe file and then install the *.inf file into ndiswrapper.

Alternatively you can right click on the .exe and select extract here and then install ndis-gtk which is a nice little gui front end to ndiswrapper and you are done in 20 seconds without ever touching the cli.

Stop believing that people tell you to use the cli because it is the only way to do something, it is merely the way it is easiest to communicate in the shortest time.

I have argued several times that the prevalence of cli solutions keeps new users dumb, and doesn't educate them, and I still think thats true, the belief that it is necessary for all sorts of simple things is proof of that.

I also get amused by the suggestion that windows is this paragon of simplicity and usability...um it isn't, it breaks all the time, bsods, random errors with the registry rendering the system unbootable, weird wireless driver configurations. I have spent at least as much time googling things to find out how to fix my mothers pc as I have learning how to do things on linux. XP breaks, a lot, end of story. Does ubuntu break a fair bit? Yeah sure it does, if you use compiz (which is beta software). Xp apps crashes all the time, ubuntu stuff does too, in my experience slightly less, and you know what so do mac apps....Software is buggy, thats life.

Anyway we are now way off topic :)

P.S. @ David Ryder....Assuming you drive, did you just get in the car and drive off? or did it take several weeks/months of someone teaching you and practise before you could do it? and that was when you probably knew what all the controls did before you got in. Yet now, it seems so simple and obvious doesn't it, you get in and drive, no thought required...Now imagine in the night I sneak in and replace your steering wheel with a joystick and switch the accelerator and brake pedals, do you think you will get to work without crashing?

My layout is no less logical really, its no less easy to use, you just don't know how to do it. As a new linux user you arrive with no knowledge of how linux works and find its ways confusing, that is because you are human, not because linux is arcane.

[Sealbhach]

Wifi? Great example is this computer. Under Vista, Wifi works with no problems, out-of-the box fashion. However, under Ubuntu, no chance to get it to work.

But the issue under discussion here is Linux machines sold already pre-loaded.

There should in theory be no hardware compatibilty problems with these netbooks.

So the playing field is supposed to be level in terms of "easy to use".



.

[davidryder]

-snip-

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not flaunting Windows as a superior OS or harping on Linux for any of its shortcomings. But it's extremely naive to say that Linux trumps Windows in every category. The market share would not be allocated the way it is if that were the case.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses; the mentality that one is better than the other is mind-boggling to me. That's akin to the fanboy attitude I've encountered on console gaming forums.

But back to learning to drive and being instructed on how to use OS's - that's not a fair comparison. I think a better example would be a Windows user using a Mac for the first time.

EDIT: Linux has come a long way from just 2 years ago, but to say it's user-friendliness is on par with Windows is just silly - IMO. I'm not saying that user-friendliness is the ONLY reason the laptops are being returned but I am pretty certain they are one of the reasons.

EDIT EDIT: Regarding stability... no on Win95, fairly on XP, and yes on Vista. And BSOD was really something only seen on Win95 and early XP.

[mybunche]

If they install a decent distro like Ubuntu Netbook Remix it might have been better. :)

[LaRoza]

If they install a decent distro like Ubuntu Netbook Remix it might have been better. :)

Perhaps Dell will be the ones to do it right :-)

[geoken]

Simply put, microsoft is abusing its monopoly position yet again to try and drive out competition through any means necessary.


So by doing absolutely nothing, and having netbook's returned because customers don't like Linux, Microsoft is abusing it's monopoly?

[issih]

I agree that fanboyism is pointless, and both do have strengths and weaknesses, but windows marketshare has far more to do with history and predatory (verging on illegal) business practices than anything to do with the quality of the software. It is ubiquitous, so everyone knows how to use it, so they are reluctant to use something that is different.

My point stands, you can not comment on user friendliness because your view is tainted, as is mine, as is anyone who has already learnt the MS way, you also can't compare a computer bought with a preinstalled OS to one where you load the OS yourself and have to deal with all the awkward problems that get thrown up yourself.

I consider it a non event to try and claim windows is easier to use, of course it is, you know how to. if something goes wrong you have the mental tools to try and fix it, you know the people to ask, the websites to read. Its a totally unfair comparison.

Windows users have to search the internet for software, ubuntu users have to click on the add/remove feature and tick a check box.

Windows users have to click start to shut down, ubuntu users hit the power icon.

2 to ubuntu

Windows users drag to the startup folder to set programs to boot at launch, ubuntu users have to go into sessions?

1 to windows

We could go on, some bits better some bits worse, but the irony is that there are loads of people who try and do things the windows way even if the ubuntu way is easier....see the number of posts about trying to install some random tar.gz that is easily available in the repositories. Once you are indoctrinated into a way of doing things, even simpler solutions seem alien.

As for the mac analogy, I've seen plenty of people lost on macs, and indeed I went windows->mac->linux so I've done that switch..Its not particularly simple, it has its quirks, and like everything else you only find out how it works by playing with it. Mac OS is not something you walk up to and can use...nothing is

[issih]

Extending the service life of XP for a specific subset of devices is not nothing, its a cynical ploy. Hopefully they have had enough antitrust suits that they won't try and force the manufacturers not to sell products with other OS'es installed this time around, we shall see.

A monopoly position is abused every day by the incumbant, because no one can hope to compete against it, regardless of quality or anything else, because the monopoly becomes the de facto standard.

That is why there are provisions in law to break up monopolies, and force them to behave in such a way as to allow competition to flourish. This is what the antitrust lawsuits and the EEC rulings against microsoft (which are still rumbling on) are all about.

Despite this, MS continues to try and drive rivals out, by ensuring its software is offered on a set of devices they had no intention of supporting (sscs and indeed the olpc), as vista is far too bloated and xp was marked for removal from the product line.

It is nothing more than good business practice from Microsoft's point of view, as to whether it is fair is up to the courts to decide...personally I think Microsoft is still far too powerful.

[geoken]

We could go on, some bits better some bits worse, but the irony is that there are loads of people who try and do things the windows way even if the ubuntu way is easier....see the number of posts about trying to install some random tar.gz that is easily available in the repositories. Once you are indoctrinated into a way of doing things, even simpler solutions seem alien.


To speak to that point in specific, I think it's unfair to say people do this because they are used to Windows and don't want to do it the 'Ubuntu way' which you claim is inherently easier.

1. The 'Ubuntu way' usually gives you old apps. This may or may not be fine with you. If you need the newest version of inkscape because they finally added some feature you want this way doesn't work for you. Also, if the app doesn't happen to be in the repositories this way also doesn't work for you.

2. The 'Ubuntu way' doesn't give you very much information about an app. When I need to do a certain task and I'm unfamiliar with the various apps that fit my need, I usually find myself on Gnome Files or Google anyway to try and get a better idea of which app will be the best. For me, being able to download and directly install from Gnome Files would be more desirable than the add remove programs menu not because I'm used to Windows but because I'm on gnome files anyway.

[Ub1476]

To speak to that point in specific, I think it's unfair to say people do this because they are used to Windows and don't want to do it the 'Ubuntu way' which you claim is inherently easier.

1. The 'Ubuntu way' usually gives you old apps. This may or may not be fine with you. If you need the newest version of inkscape because they finally added some feature you want this way doesn't work for you. Also, if the app doesn't happen to be in the repositories this way also doesn't work for you.

2. The 'Ubuntu way' doesn't give you very much information about an app. When I need to do a certain task and I'm unfamiliar with the various apps that fit my need, I usually find myself on Gnome Files or Google anyway to try and get a better idea of which app will be the best. For me, being able to download and directly install from Gnome Files would be more desirable than the add remove programs menu not because I'm used to Windows but because I'm on gnome files anyway.

But you wouldn't get automatic updates (all in a package) then, would you?

But, if you want the latest version, or want to download manually, check out getdeb.net.

[issih]

If you are techie enough to need the latest and greatest svn version of some application, then chances are you are also techie enough to work out how to either add the appropriate external repository, or indeed learn how to compile things. Either way cutting edge software and reliability are incompatible bedfellows, you can't get it both ways.

I really can't agree that most users don't use the add/remove feature because of that at all. Some high end users perhaps, but most don't use it because in windows add/remove really only means remove, and they don't know any better.

That said, a nice simple installer that can install from the web would be lovely...almost entirely impossible though. The linux landscape is so much more diverse than the MS one in terms of kernel version, installed packages, package manager, etc that making a single installer that would work everywhere is almost impossible without basically following the windows way and having the install file contain virtually every dependency, which is very kludgey.

[geoken]

Extending the service life of XP for a specific subset of devices is not nothing, its a cynical ploy. Hopefully they have had enough antitrust suits that they won't try and force the manufacturers not to sell products with other OS'es installed this time around, we shall see.

A monopoly position is abused every day by the incumbant, because no one can hope to compete against it, regardless of quality or anything else, because the monopoly becomes the de facto standard.

That is why there are provisions in law to break up monopolies, and force them to behave in such a way as to allow competition to flourish. This is what the antitrust lawsuits and the EEC rulings against microsoft (which are still rumbling on) are all about.

Despite this, MS continues to try and drive rivals out, by ensuring its software is offered on a set of devices they had no intention of supporting (sscs and indeed the olpc), as vista is far too bloated and xp was marked for removal from the product line.

It is nothing more than good business practice from Microsoft's point of view, as to whether it is fair is up to the courts to decide...personally I think Microsoft is still far too powerful.

A company releases a product. A few years later they release a new product to replace the original, they decide to kill of the original because the overlap will cannibalize both. A new market segment emerges where the new product is completely unsuitable, yet the old product is well suited. The company continues selling the product to that market.

Is that not a common business practice? In what ways are illegal bundling employed in the above scenario.

[issih]

I've stated several times that it is good business practice from MS's point of view...if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that their actions are that unbiased its up to you. I'd point out that MS has a long and infamous history of deliberately trying to drive out other OS choices from the market, and that this move almost certainly has as much to do with restricting the growth of linux by limiting the exposure granted to it, but that is just my opnion.

In the end I view MS as a monopoly, I've stated that, consequently action needs to be taken to ensure competition has a fair chance. if you don't then MS is allowed to do what it wants to drive people out of the market, including predatory license pricing, and exclusivity deals. I consider it wrong, if you don't thats your call.

If someone offers you a computer, that is a bit faster, does everything you want, but is all in french, or one that is a bit slower, but in English for a bit more, which do you choose?

That is the abuse, people will pick MS because it is so common, there was a market they didn't have control of, because their products didn't fit the hardware..so they went fishing in the recycle bin. One more time, it is just good business from MS's point of view, if you view them as a monopoly trying to curtail competition, its abuse.

[geoken]

If you are techie enough to need the latest and greatest svn version of some application, then chances are you are also techie enough to work out how to either add the appropriate external repository, or indeed learn how to compile things. Either way cutting edge software and reliability are incompatible bedfellows, you can't get it both ways.

I really can't agree that most users don't use the add/remove feature because of that at all. Some high end users perhaps, but most don't use it because in windows add/remove really only means remove, and they don't know any better.

That said, a nice simple installer that can install from the web would be lovely...almost entirely impossible though. The linux landscape is so much more diverse than the MS one in terms of kernel version, installed packages, package manager, etc that making a single installer that would work everywhere is almost impossible without basically following the windows way and having the install file contain virtually every dependency, which is very kludgey.

You're misreading my post. My only point is that it's unfair to say people asking for help to compile some app are doing it because they are used to Windows and are resistant to change.

I also disagree with your second paragraph. You say it's kludgy to install necessary dependencies in the apps local folder, but I disagree. That's a different issue all together, but I'll sum up my opinions on it by saying that I think the Linux community needs to ask itself if vastly improving the user experience is worth sacrificing 10 or 15mb of disk space to duplicated packages.

[chucky chuckaluck]

sorry if someone already suggested this, but maybe a lot of these people just don't like linux. it's surely unfamiliar to them and why should they bother to learn something new if they're not all that unhappy with windows, especially if a lot of the documentation is written for somebody who already knows how to use the software? a lot of what we're able to do in life is based on the knowledge we have acquired. unless that's not working out for us, we're not going to be desperate to find alternatives. most end users just want their machine to work, which includes their acquired knowledge. "linux is probably better, but i don't have time to learn it."

[geoken]

That is the abuse, people will pick MS because it is so common, there was a market they didn't have control of, because their products didn't fit the hardware..so they went fishing in the recycle bin. One more time, it is just good business from MS's point of view, if you view them as a monopoly trying to curtail competition, its abuse.

No it isn't. Abusing a monopoly involves illegally bundling and tying together various products. How are they guilty of that in this situation?

[issih]

The included dependency argument can be argued back and forth forever...not worth starting now, we have enough off topicness already :)

Some people are indeed asking how to compile something because they need to compile it for some reason, I've ceded that point, but that is a separate issue. There are lots of posts in the absolute beginners section asking how to install totally innocuous applications, where there is no chance of needing the latest and greatest version, those users are not trying to compile because they need to, they are doing it because they don't know how to do it the easy way.

e.g.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=853768&highlight=install+tar.gz

People are very silly things (and I include myself in this)

We never read manuals, and we are amusing creatures of habit.

We will use the same computer in a computer room if it is free, we will use the same toilet in a public restroom, all these things are proven sociological facts. Human beings ARE resistant to change, its just in our DNA :)

P.S. Those are examples of predatory business practices made possible by a dominant market position. Monopolies abuse the system by their existence, not necessarily a specific act, and actions which would potentially be acceptable for a normal business are not acceptable for a monopoly. MS has a long history of taking actions that are anticompetitive, i.e. actions that are taken to drive out competition rather than actually because it is good business. Their actions around sccs and the olpc project are more easily justified, but I simply don't believe they are entirely innocent, especially with the olpc, where large amounts of MS money was ploughed into lobbying governments in the developing countries.

[joninkrakow]

Linux has a really long way to go before it's ready for mainstream users.

It's hard after years of using both OS's to objectively say which is easier to use, but I feel pretty confident that Windows is overall easier to use and harder to break for the average user.

I really couldn't agree with that. As a non-Windows user, coming from over 20 years of Mac experience, and now two years of Linux experience, I have a completely different perspective.

I bought this Wind with XP pre-installed on it (as I mentioned in my previous post), It took me an hour to get wifi working, and while I have had a smattering of Windows use through the years, I never cease to be amazed at the arcane ways that Windows forces on you--the myriad of dialog boxes, windows, tabs, buttons, and garbage. It is an endless maze of muck that really makes no sense at all--Microsoft could have accomplished the same thing with a fraction of the complexity. Worse, in my experience, it is _very_ easy to accidentally screw something up, and be unable to fix it without jumping through hoops. Worse, I have no idea what I could have done, but I somehow scrambled my hard drive, and the "repair" left something like a thousand oddly-named files in a folder at the root of my hard drive, and afterwards, most of my programs no longer worked, or didn't work properly.

I may have had problems with Ubuntu or Puppy or other distros I've tried (typically, betting proper screen resolution, and some external hardware), but I've never run into the brick walls that Windows has thrown in my way. IMO, if a person with no computer experience met up with Windows and Linux, they would prefer Linux over Windows most of the time, especially if they had no prior knowledge of Windows. The problem comes in when people who think they know "computers" discover that their "tricks" don't work in Linux, and come to Linux with the presuppositions that Windows experience provides.

-Jon

[Ripfox]

Yeah, but we are not most people.



I am saying that we shouldn't be fanatical, and support efforts we...support. It is one thing to say the netbooks with Linux aren't good or popular, but it is another to buy one. Which says more? I have ordered a Dell 910, with Ubuntu. I did my part. I don't care about others in this. If people are going to buy Windows machines then install Linux instead of buying Linux pre-installed, the OEM's are going to go along with that. If we buy the Linux boxen in great enough numbers, they will sell them.

But if you don't promote it and spread the word then they will not sell enough of them as your comment ended. I don't think you have to be a "fanatic" to be passionate and active about something.

[LaRoza]

But if you don't promote it and spread the word then they will not sell enough of them as your comment ended. I don't think you have to be a "fanatic" to be passionate and active about something.

By fanatic, I meant the people who rant online, instead of doing things. The people who do lists of "Linux must..." or "Linux isn't..." and don't do anything are not helping (especially since they buy Windows boxes often and put Linux on it).

When I get my Dell 910, I will be seen in public with it, and I will spread the word when people comment on it. "Oh yeah, its really handy, comes with Linux, a free faster OS without the hassle of Windows and you don't have to deal with viruses or malware, oh, it cost less than $400"

[aysiu]

I work in a school admission office.

If my boss reported to our board of trustees that this year we had a huge chunk of our freshmen leave after the first month of school because they realized the school wasn't what they thought it was, do you think the board of trustees would think something was wrong with the school curriculum and community or something was wrong with the admission office recruiting tactics and literature?

The original article linked to in the first post of this thread clearly says that the MSI Wind Linux purchasers returned at a higher rate because they didn't know what they were getting:
People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. I don't see anything in there about Linux being inferior or not user-friendly. Even the Director of Sales at MSI knows it has to do with bad marketing.

They should take a page from Apple, with it's grammatically incorrect Think Different campaign of the late 90s. With two words, Apple was able to get across that Macs are not Windows without making that difference sound like a liability. I've seen many reviews by non-power-users who have loved the Linux Eee PC, because they knew it was something different. I've compiled them in this blog post (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/i-dont-know-about-the-desktop-but-linux-appears-to-be-ready-for-the-ultra-mobile-pc-2/).

Could Linux be more user-friendly? Could they use better distros or distro implementations on netbooks? Sure. I'll concede both. But neither is relevant to this article. All this article means is that MSI does a lousy job at explaining to its customers the different types of products it sells.

[Ripfox]

Well, if they do nothing else...these people who rant about missing functions for Linux at least sometimes bring these problems to the forefront for real developers to see, constructive or not ;)