Has anyone actually paid for software?

[machiner]

I'll admin - I was "in the biz" for a while, so it was pretty easy to get any software I needed...I worked as a VAR for msoft products...and the whole y2k thing...and some other admin and sales gigs --

anyway that ended a few years ago.

I looked over the software I have for windows a few months ago -- most of what I got from work I just gave away - and I was astounded at the estimated $$ amount I put to it. I have one piece of software that actually costs $12,000 to install and set up on one machine with 5 licenses -- AYFKM??

Aside from that POS title (point-of-sale) I came to about 6 grand. I am including expensive ms apps like all of the versions of office I have (all of them -- although I haven't run winnt in a while) few games I never played and a ton of other stuff - some quite expensive -- I think autocad 8? (memory now - from years ago) was >$10,000, although I didn't count that one.

In all the years of "personal computing" I don't think I paid for that much software -- it's all crap anyway was my justification.

I did, however, pay for:

MS windows 98 (gave it away, got 98SE - no $$, gave it away)
MS windows 2000 (upgrade)
J. River Media Center 9 (excellent)
I think that's about it.

In 1997 I was introduced to astalavista...(url witheld)

These days I wouldn't recomend folks go there for the purposes I used to - I've seen some pretty bad consequences on some friend's machines...you have been warned.

I used to download and crack shareware like it was going out of style, and I still think I have about 50 cd's full of the stuff. I never did it to actually "steal" software, I just needed longer than 30 days. I would install it and get back to it 3-4 weeks later usually, and I got pretty sick of seeing "your evaluation period has expired..."

but when I finally got serious with my box (winnt-4) I looked for better software alternatives. Free ones.

For instance, I used irfanview for my image viewing...and more (free)
I used netscape, then mozilla, then firebird(fox) for my browser - although I loved Opera -- I felt guilty about cracking it - because it's terrific software. Not once did I ever feel guilty about cracking crappy software, whether I actually used them or not. I was the "tester" for colleagues and friends. I have made products for profit before, if those shoddy software crooks expected my $$ for their crap they were mistaken.


ANyway - I've become pretty longwinded with this thread - I was just wondering how many of us actually went to (pick your retailler) and paid for software.

I only did once (win2k, actually went to the store to buy it). I think my apolitical motivations made me a prime candidate for linux and opensource. Software should be free.

If you read an EULA (do it, I dare you) and you are OK with stipulations like (paraphrased) :

our software contains bugs and we don't care, if it breaks your computer it's your tough luck.

... then, more power to you.

regards,
machiner

[darkoptix]

Yeah, The only thing I spend money on now is the occational game, and I only do that if I think the developers earn it. For example, I went and bought Halo 2 when it came out in stores, even though I have already beat and had the game for a month(leaked). I did this because I thought it was worth any ammount, and owning the game makes me feel proud.
Now software on the other hand is something that seems just wrong to spend money on. I just don't know why, but I haven't spent money on "software" since i was a little kid on a P60.
Today, I have all the cool software, and didn't release a dollar on any of it.
This is one of the main reasons I think linux is a cool way to go.

[jeremy]

I, on occasion, have not been able to avoid bundled software. While I have never gone and bought software directly, I have had to pay for stuff I haven't even wanted!

[LongTooth]

In a family of four - me, my wife and a son and daugher- I'm the only one who loves and used Linux. The other couldn't care less. And so that means they are Windows slaves. I can't get around not buying software. I just purchased two boxes of Norton AntiVirus. And about six months ago upgraded my wife's laptop and the kids' desktop from Millennium to XP Home edition. I was forced to buy Roxie CD burning software when with the upgrade my old CD burning program wouldn't work. Can't say I wasn't warned.

Not being the gamer most folks are I still can't help forking out money for them. Remember the son and daughter? They're the gamers.

I don't feel right using pirated software. So I shell out the hard earned bucks and keep Uncle Bill away from my door. I sleep easier at night.

So in answer to you post, yes I still buy programs. Although not a one is for me.

[machiner]

I feel your pain, Longtooth.

I put windows on my kid's machine because ( and last night I didn't remember this) I bought a few "educational" software packages for them.

Well, after seeing them use the software, and using it myself, I chalked up the expense as a learning experience.

The software is crap - runs horribly, and I can't see them learning much except how to recognize product placement.

I put linux back on the kid's box and they play lbreakout2, and gconpris.

Gcompris is fantastic - written by geeks that love to learn and there are some damned shrewd methods they have employed to instruct and teach. I used to teach (I'm a geek, too - I taught hardcore science) and I can really appreciate the efforts of the gcompris folks.

I like kdeedu as well, but most of it is for older kids and adults who want to bone-up.

Oh, as an aside, I would seriously recommend to you that you dump anything NORTON from your machine...but I do understand folks reliance or usage of the program. Most folks use it because it's bundled...it's a reason I'm not a marketer anymore. I like sleeping.

When Peter Norton started writing software for windows the programs were top-notch. Not so anymore - full of bloat, $$$$$$$$, and ****** programming. I will guarantee you that if you reinstall (yes, you will have to reinstall because of the complete norton integration) windows and use kaspersky or even the free dos version of avg (I think, it could be something else -- any help...?) your machine, your wallett and your windows installation will run much better.

As well, I didn't use "pirated" software, I just got serials for shareware, or employed a crack from some hot-shot russian hacker... but that was long ago....thank the gods for linux!!


I hope everyone's Christmas was full of love and cheer... mine is not over -- we have "christmas" in every room -- that I have to clean up.

Woohoo! At least I didn't have to spend 2 days putting things together!!!!

machiner
a song even your mama will love (http://www.madcarters.com/sotr.mp3)

[ploum]

I've bought two softwares in my life.

1) I've bought McAfee VirusScan when we received the new computer with Win98. It was a mistake... The upgrade never fully worked and expired after 6 months only. The interface was nearly unusable. Since that, all my windows machines were under a cracked norton AV. (but no windows machines in my sight for two years ;-) )

2) The linuxant driverloader, to use my Wifi card. Worth the 20$ I spent.. But now ndiswrapper is really better.

[Lovechild]

I never brought a boxed version of Windows, though one copy of win95 and win98 came with my respective laptops, that was around the time I went 100% Linux anyways but I never requested the money back.

I brought games and other software, but lately I've been donating to free software rather than filling the pockets of the competition.

Every dime I make on Linux currently goes right back into the respective projects, it's not much but every little bit helps.

[LongTooth]

Machiner, thanks for the music - http://www.madcarters.com/sotr.mp3 . I remember hearing it once before. This vendition left an empression. Love it.

I digress. My apologies. Back to the topic at hand.

[BWF89]

I've (and by I, I mean my parents) payed for:

-Windows 95, 98, ME, XP, any piece of crap MS OS that comes out in the future
-Most PC programs I own (about 20-30)
-All my PS2 games (about 18 )
-All my PS1 games (about 5)

[jadm5000]

I'll admin - I was "in the biz" for a while, so it was pretty easy to get any software I needed...I worked as a VAR for msoft products...and the whole y2k thing...and some other admin and sales gigs --

anyway that ended a few years ago.

I looked over the software I have for windows a few months ago -- most of what I got from work I just gave away - and I was astounded at the estimated $$ amount I put to it. I have one piece of software that actually costs $12,000 to install and set up on one machine with 5 licenses -- AYFKM??

Aside from that POS title (point-of-sale) I came to about 6 grand. I am including expensive ms apps like all of the versions of office I have (all of them -- although I haven't run winnt in a while) few games I never played and a ton of other stuff - some quite expensive -- I think autocad 8? (memory now - from years ago) was >$10,000, although I didn't count that one.

In all the years of "personal computing" I don't think I paid for that much software -- it's all crap anyway was my justification.

I did, however, pay for:

MS windows 98 (gave it away, got 98SE - no $$, gave it away)
MS windows 2000 (upgrade)
J. River Media Center 9 (excellent)
I think that's about it.

In 1997 I was introduced to astalavista...(url witheld)

These days I wouldn't recomend folks go there for the purposes I used to - I've seen some pretty bad consequences on some friend's machines...you have been warned.

I used to download and crack shareware like it was going out of style, and I still think I have about 50 cd's full of the stuff. I never did it to actually "steal" software, I just needed longer than 30 days. I would install it and get back to it 3-4 weeks later usually, and I got pretty sick of seeing "your evaluation period has expired..."

but when I finally got serious with my box (winnt-4) I looked for better software alternatives. Free ones.

For instance, I used irfanview for my image viewing...and more (free)
I used netscape, then mozilla, then firebird(fox) for my browser - although I loved Opera -- I felt guilty about cracking it - because it's terrific software. Not once did I ever feel guilty about cracking crappy software, whether I actually used them or not. I was the "tester" for colleagues and friends. I have made products for profit before, if those shoddy software crooks expected my $$ for their crap they were mistaken.


ANyway - I've become pretty longwinded with this thread - I was just wondering how many of us actually went to (pick your retailler) and paid for software.

I only did once (win2k, actually went to the store to buy it). I think my apolitical motivations made me a prime candidate for linux and opensource. Software should be free.

If you read an EULA (do it, I dare you) and you are OK with stipulations like (paraphrased) :

our software contains bugs and we don't care, if it breaks your computer it's your tough luck.

... then, more power to you.

regards,
machiner
i can relate to your post - i have a STACK of every MS app you could imagine - take it away
its NOT worth the crack-hack-whack others offer to get it free.
them days are OVER here. (3 pc's later)

[machiner]

BWF -- I don't mean to offend you -- but why don't you get a job and pay for your own games?

In my day - if we wanted something we earned the money ourselves, and I'm not so old.

back to topic--

[jakeslife]

I am reluctant to touch this topic because of the heated debate on both sides of it, but there actually are certain pieces of software I pay for (under certain conditions). If I am buying from a reputable company who values their customer base (nope, not MS), and they are supplying me with a quality product, with technical support, then yes, they deserve my money--and my loyalty as a consumer.

It doesn't matter to me if it is produced by a company (MS, McAfee, Norton, Adobe) or a smaller outfit or even a single person (booru webcam, Trillian Pro--although their policies are questionable--Colorspy, etc.), if they respect their customer base, then hell yes, I will pay for it in the name of business.

Games are a different story for me. If I find a quality game, read great reviews, try it and like it, I will not only buy it, but I will first go to the web site to see if the company is selling it, that way the company itself makes more money off of the game instead of a retailer that just carries it.

[jdodson]

I'll admin - I was "in the biz" for a while, so it was pretty easy to get any software I needed...I worked as a VAR for msoft products...and the whole y2k thing...and some other admin and sales gigs --

anyway that ended a few years ago.

I looked over the software I have for windows a few months ago -- most of what I got from work I just gave away - and I was astounded at the estimated $$ amount I put to it. I have one piece of software that actually costs $12,000 to install and set up on one machine with 5 licenses -- AYFKM??

Aside from that POS title (point-of-sale) I came to about 6 grand. I am including expensive ms apps like all of the versions of office I have (all of them -- although I haven't run winnt in a while) few games I never played and a ton of other stuff - some quite expensive -- I think autocad 8? (memory now - from years ago) was >$10,000, although I didn't count that one.

In all the years of "personal computing" I don't think I paid for that much software -- it's all crap anyway was my justification.

I did, however, pay for:

MS windows 98 (gave it away, got 98SE - no $$, gave it away)
MS windows 2000 (upgrade)
J. River Media Center 9 (excellent)
I think that's about it.

In 1997 I was introduced to astalavista...(url witheld)

These days I wouldn't recomend folks go there for the purposes I used to - I've seen some pretty bad consequences on some friend's machines...you have been warned.

I used to download and crack shareware like it was going out of style, and I still think I have about 50 cd's full of the stuff. I never did it to actually "steal" software, I just needed longer than 30 days. I would install it and get back to it 3-4 weeks later usually, and I got pretty sick of seeing "your evaluation period has expired..."

but when I finally got serious with my box (winnt-4) I looked for better software alternatives. Free ones.

For instance, I used irfanview for my image viewing...and more (free)
I used netscape, then mozilla, then firebird(fox) for my browser - although I loved Opera -- I felt guilty about cracking it - because it's terrific software. Not once did I ever feel guilty about cracking crappy software, whether I actually used them or not. I was the "tester" for colleagues and friends. I have made products for profit before, if those shoddy software crooks expected my $$ for their crap they were mistaken.


ANyway - I've become pretty longwinded with this thread - I was just wondering how many of us actually went to (pick your retailler) and paid for software.

I only did once (win2k, actually went to the store to buy it). I think my apolitical motivations made me a prime candidate for linux and opensource. Software should be free.

If you read an EULA (do it, I dare you) and you are OK with stipulations like (paraphrased) :

our software contains bugs and we don't care, if it breaks your computer it's your tough luck.

... then, more power to you.

regards,
machiner


i used to pirate every piece of software i had, except for really new games. i had copies of all windows operating systems, servers, games, photoshop, etc. i then just made the decision to go "legit". i attempted to find free alternatives. those free alternatives loaded my computer with tons of spyware, though i was using free beer(not as in speech) software.

anyways, fast forward to now, i use gnu/linux as my OS and pretty much stick to free speech software. the pretty much is because i still play games like unreal classic/2003/2004, neverwinter nights, etc..... however, i purchased all of those games, or the licenses were transferred to me in accordance with the EULA. i purchase around 2-3 games per year, however this year has been pretty sparse, only bought 1(unreal tournament 2004).

[Rancoras]

BWF -- I don't mean to offend you -- but why don't you get a job and pay for your own games?

In my day - if we wanted something we earned the money ourselves, and I'm not so old.

back to topic--

Give him a break, he's only 15. Now, once he turns 16, however.....

[eBopBob]

Wow...

To be honest I'm quite shocked by some of your stories. Pirating software and such because you claim it's "crap" and so on? Shocking. Really shocking.


Personally I've never pirated software. I believe in purchasing it whether it be from the company who made it, or a retailer. And that includes computer games and software.

[Niomi]

I do pirate software, espechally for programs like Photoshop. $600? Give me a break, it didn't cost that much to develop and manufacture. Espechally from Adobe, who makes some of the most unstable, resource hogging programs I've ever seen.

If companies are going to pull every trick and con to earn an extra buck, so will I.

But if a software maker is honest, upfront, and sincere, I return the favor.

I think filesharing is a natural economical response to monopoly. When you have companies like RIAA and Microsoft without decent competition from other companies, they find themselves competing with their own customers. I'm enjoying following this issue and seeing how it turns out.

My class is studying the formation of the United States in Social Studies. I can see simularities between the colonists' fustration over unfair taxes and the file sharing issues.

[poofyhairguy]

I do pirate software, espechally for programs like Photoshop. $600? Give me a break, it didn't cost that much to develop and manufacture. Espechally from Adobe, who makes some of the most unstable, resource hogging programs I've ever seen.

I like photoshop, if wine ran the new one perfectly, I would buy it.

I think I will spend money on crossoveroffice, if they can perfect the itunes support.

[Ste]

I like photoshop, if wine ran the new one perfectly, I would buy it.

I think I will spend money on crossoveroffice, if they can perfect the itunes support.
I have bought lots of software on Windows :(
Was into producing sound way back when and bought loads for that, Cubase 5.0, Halion(VST), Cooledit 2000. Also Windows XP after ME broke on me. A windows DVD player (Can't remember the name), Norton anti-virus I know there's more I'm forgetting.

Now it's mainly games I buy, that I know will run on Linux, Not that many tho. :(

[BWF89]

Heres how I see it: It's ok to pirate software from a big company like Micro$oft because they have a near monopoly hold on the market. It's not ok to pirate SuSE, Redhat, Mandrake, or any Linux software because they need the money to compete with M$...

My cousin Eric is going to send us Photoshop because he can get it free where he works! I'll probably just keep useing The GIMP because I don't feel like learning something new...

[Rancoras]

Heres how I see it: It's ok to pirate software from a big company like Micro$oft because they have a near monopoly hold on the market.

Are you serious? Pirating is stealing no matter how you say it. It's not ok to steal from anyone, no matter how much money or monopoly they have. I'm not defending Microsoft, just their right to make money on products they produce.

[BWF89]

Are you serious? Pirating is stealing no matter how you say it. It's not ok to steal from anyone, no matter how much money or monopoly they have. I'm not defending Microsoft, just their right to make money on products they produce.
If you NEED to use a M$ product and you don't want to give money to the devil, pirating is sometimes nessessary. Besides, their only looseing money if you were going to buy that product if you couldn't pirate it. It's the same as when the cable comany (Comcast) says their looseing money when people steal cable. Their not actually looseing money. Their just not making all the money they could have been making if you had actually bought the product...

It's only stealing if you go into the store and put a copy of MS Windows under your trenchcoat and walk out of the store with it. Then your hurting the store which is not good. But who would want to use Windows that bad anyway :D ...

[machiner]

Give him a break, he's only 15. Now, once he turns 16, however.....


ahhh -- no. When I was 15 i was living on my own -- but that's my story. When I was 11 I had a paper route that earned my about $45 a week...the year was 1978, 1979... and Mrs. Cleaver was our next door neighbor, ba hahah...

Now -- I am well aware that times have changed and I don't even think kids can have paper routes these days -- but we (yeah -- all of us kids) also did other things for money -- liked shoveling or raking -- or whatever.

Again, I understand that times have changed -- but I'm a parent and in the interest of my children's growth and development -- there is NO WAY that I will shell out $$$ so they can sit around and play video games... or hang out at some mall buying frivolous stuff.

We had atari and intellivision -- (sheeit, I AM OLD) and we bought our own games. THey were pretty expensive then, too.

Naw - I really don't mean to rag on the dude, -- and I'm getting pretty far off topic, ey.

It just doesn't do him any favors is all...but anyway...

SOmeone brought up piracy -- downloading shareware, and then cracking it is NOT PIRACY...get a grip...you've been listening to too much MS propoganda. Piracy is creating copies of an original and then SELLING them. THere is a BIG difference.

But let's see how this pans out, ey...

[Rancoras]

If you NEED to use a M$ product and you don't want to give money to the devil, pirating is sometimes nessessary. Besides, their only looseing money if you were going to buy that product if you couldn't pirate it. It's the same as when the cable comany (Comcast) says their looseing money when people steal cable. Their not actually looseing money. Their just not making all the money they could have been making if you had actually bought the product...

It's only stealing if you go into the store and put a copy of MS Windows under your trenchcoat and walk out of the store with it. Then your hurting the store which is not good. But who would want to use Windows that bad anyway :D ...

I'm sorry, but I'm rendered speechless at that post.....

[machiner]

I must agree. I'm not sure you understand what you are saying, BWF89.

To me what you are saying is, and I will direct this to a "company":

If you're big enough, I don't see where it's necessary for me to pay for your software, because I really need it and I can't afford it -- you don't really need the money"

When I ran my own company I sometimes gave stuff away -- I also gave anybody that called me to inquire about my products a 15% discount. THat's me, it was my company - my money.

In a large company, it's true, after so long a period, any product they are selling is practically all profit. After so long, the product pays for itself, the engineers or developers, or machinists have been paid and will continue to be paid. Advertising comes in and the original product payoff might take a little longer, but the product still needs to earn a buck.

Take Micro$soft -- their politics suck, and yeah -- I think Bill Gates is a piece of ****. I've known about him for 20 years and he takes the cake, spoiled rich ...the whole thing. His , and his company principals idea of driving other competing companies out of business is pretty low down -- they don't level the playing field, they buy the ball, thus the rules are theirs for the making.

Aside from personal feelings about their business practices, they still have to employ people, payoff governments and all that -- and they still have to produce ****** software and updates and all that.

Now -- I would LOVE to see M$oft fall -- its employees would find work elsewhere and its principals have enough $$ to buy small countrys...but that's irrelevent isn't it.

When I started this thread I was interested (although I had a good idea) in the responses. I knew people other than me got free software or cracked it or whatever -- I do not condone pirating - even if it's msoft software -- .

I think the businesses that set themselves up for failure deserve it. If you can make a piece of software (shoddy or fine) then you can protect it -- if you allow people to download it - you should expect people to keep shareware longer than 30 days or even crack it -- and I know companies that produce software write off a certain amount of profit to this loss. It's part of the cost of doing business.

As well - I am interested in the human condition -- those that allow people to "steal" from them, and then try to recoup any losses, or in some cases prosecute. I think it's pretty damned hippocritical, and they deserve what they get -- people cannot be trusted.

Now, this doesn't contradict my earlier statements...I do not condone piracy - and that's completely different from cracking software. I never reversed engineered any software (although I may try it for empirical reasons) and I don't pirate -- but I DID crack shareware. I would still do it if I couldn't find a free alternative. Software is overpriced, and the licenses contained therein lallow companies to sell software that can, and in some cases do destroy your data or even hardware.

I cannot tell someone to pick such a company and steal all of their software, but I can feel ok about cxracking their software so I can keep it longer than 30 days... then get rid of it because it sucks anyway...

The more I write the more steamed I get -- it's a very controversial issue and it will never NOT be.

I have lots more to say on the topic, but my wife becons for supper....

peace.

I never proof my posts. Expect errors in both syntax and grammar.

[Lovechild]

Copying a peice of software is breach of copyright, not theft
Cracking a program isn't technically stealing nor copyright breach - it's a license, and possibly, a DMCA violation.
"Transporting" a boxed version out of a store is stealing.

I hope that clears it up.

All of the above are immoral however, fight copyright terms instead, join the eff, and might I recommend reading Lessig' books?

[latrine]

funny enough i started paying for software when I bought my first boxed linux from mandrake, cos I wanted the quick hands-on and the books...

- I still use pirated software...on my m$ partition... cos I cannot afford my "need" for testing software (games).... even so, i don't rememeber having a pirated software that had a demo i did not like... like so many people I know of... (they're what I call collectors)

- I hate divx, cos I love the DVD qualitty on ,my TV and 5.1 playstation2 powered system (and it's not that good even when comparing this with a standard dvd player)

- Piracy has been used by m$ to promote its won products so to level the playground on to the windows "standard" even if it has done so indirectly, allowing volume licensees to reproduce and install windows programs at home (I know in Portugal this happens a lot)

- For the ones who knows economics, piracy has a very lame explanation... it is the only mecanism at hand for a "savvy client" to pick its supplier... it allows him to have all the utility implicit on the product with a minimum risk. Even in PS2 titles where the risk is a little higher (you have to mod chip the thing puting it to danger) many people do it. why? the percieved cost of doing so is minimum when compared with the full satisfaction of the "need".

- Everybody takes photocopies of books and magazines, and nobody gives a damn... (be the first one to throw a stone if you haven't)

- Digital media is the new media that is taking paper-media place, the only problem is that now there is a photocopier on every house, and a means of getting to the library without leaving home!

- Do I like it? No...
- Do I defend piracy (and piracy is the appropriation of something to be used in self benefict without paying the producer the cost of producing it- even if it is a crack on a shareware, or a copy of a full program, a mp3 music or a photocopy)? Nop
- Do I do it? yes... when I have no chance of getting my hands on a demo or an alternative

Blaming big companies for getting you to do it just calms your conscience of knowing you are proceeding in a wrong fashion... it's like thinking... "They are so rich that if I steal a quarter every day they won't notice..." it's just a lame excuse for a bad deed... that I use two often... that's why I am looking for the alternative... and I have found an ubuntu one!!! :)

[machiner]

Copying a peice of software is breach of copyright, not theft
Cracking a program isn't technically stealing nor copyright breach - it's a license, and possibly, a DMCA violation.
"Transporting" a boxed version out of a store is stealing.

I hope that clears it up.

All of the above are immoral however, fight copyright terms instead, join the eff, and might I recommend reading Lessig' books?


Immoral??

"THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993)"
IMMORAL, adj. Inexpedient. Whatever in the long run and with regard
to the greater number of instances men find to be generally
inexpedient comes to be considered wrong, wicked, immoral. If man's
notions of right and wrong have any other basis than this of
expediency; if they originated, or could have originated, in any other
way; if actions have in themselves a moral character apart from, and
nowise dependent on, their consequences -- then all philosophy is a
lie and reason a disorder of the mind.


Morality according to whom? And let's play justification for a moment...

Who (or what) is more immoral...shoddy, or overpriced, or license restrictive, or proprietary and annual forced renewals

or

getting a copy of winxp from a buddy, or cracking shareware?

Not to skate; or even honor the justification game, but I'd like to see how this pans out.

[machiner]

latrine said:
"- Do I defend piracy (and piracy is the appropriation of something to be used in self benefict without paying the producer the cost of producing it- even if it is a crack on a shareware, or a copy of a full program, a mp3 music or a photocopy)?"

I can't defend that statement. Even those companies crying such can't, I'd wager...else they have "selective (fill in noun)".

Hmmm...

Oh, and this all becomes pretty moot when we consider Ubuntu, ey.

Long live Ubuntu.

[alpha]

i can relate to your post - i have a STACK of every MS app you could imagine - take it away
its NOT worth the crack-hack-whack others offer to get it free.
them days are OVER here. (3 pc's later)
I've bought:

Zone Alarm Pro v3
Microsoft Frontpage 2000
Windows XP Pro - full version

[Rancoras]

I'm not trying to bring anyone over to my side of the fence....I'm stating my belief:

Theft: The wrongful taking of the property of another.

At it's core, that's what software piracy, warez, cracking, etc. is, THEFT. I don't care how big the company is or how much you need the software. If you take something (that is only available LEGALLY by giving someone MONEY for it) and don't pay for it, it is THEFT. I don't care about the legal definitions, what's right is right. You pay for software that is not free (as in beer).

BWF I don't know where you got your skewed way of thinking, but I can see where you're headed with that attitude.

[BWF89]

BWF I don't know where you got your skewed way of thinking, but I can see where you're headed with that attitude.
Where am I headed? I've never used a piece of pirated software in my life (that I can remember), and now that I have found out about Linux and open source I will probably never have to...

All I'm saying is that to Microsoft looseing a few bucks a year to pirating wouldn't be devistating , with Novell, Mandrake, and Redhat it would be...

[poofyhairguy]

Oh, and this all becomes pretty moot when we consider Ubuntu, ey.

Long live Ubuntu.

This makes me think about something: perceived motives compared to actual motives.

Many OSS developers whose thoughts I have read on the internet sound a lot like Richard Stallman, in the fact that they think that the benefit of their work is to free the computer users from malicious corporate entities.

Yet the latest wave of Linux users seem to not give a damn about this philosophical freedom. Many new users like how OSS is the other kind of free, and how Linux's programs are free. Therefore the future for growth for Linux means taping the huge market that is just looking for a free lunch- if XP and Office was free (as in beer) then many of the newest converts will not come around. I'm not saying that there isn't ANY more newcomers that what the philosophical freedom, I'm just saying from now on those people will account for a smaller and smaller percent of linux's base growth.

Is the old guard of Linux really ready for this new breed of new comer that doesn't give a crap about the free philosophy?

Take this RMS quote as an example

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html

"If you value freedom, you will resist the temptation to use a program that takes away your freedom, whatever technical advantages it may have."

Raise your hands: How many regulars on this board have installed at least one proprietary piece of software?

I bet most have, seeing as how this is a desktop OS and a desktop machine almost needs to play MP3, DVDs.

I know for me personally, I almost could give a damn about OSS by itself. For me Linux is a free learning experience, not a liberation.

This thread pretty much proves that many computer users don't respect copyright; that includes the GPL and commercial software. If anything, OSS only accidentally allows a user to be legal- the software can be had for free no matter what.

Somedays, I honestly feel worse about leaching off the work of idealists like Linus than I ever did back when I pirated every windows programs I thought I might possibly one day need. Why? Because it feels like when I use Linux as a free media playing sandbox I am peeing on all that hip philosophy about being free, yet when I pirate windows software I am merely countering the age old concept of greed.

Sorry to steal this thread. I'm not trying to justify piracy, I'm just marveling at a crucial juncture for OSS- when the economic model trumps the philosophical one.

[Niomi]

Pirating is not theft.

Person A buys a copy of Software X. Person A now owns this copy of Software X believes that since he owns it he should be allowed to do anything he wants with it, including making a copy of Software X and passing it on to Person B.

It is, like a previous poster said, a violation of copyright-- but NOT theft. The only way you can justify the crime as theft is by assuming Person B would've bought Software X if Person A had not given him a free copy. This is a shaky argument to begin with and the asumption isn't always correct.

[Rancoras]

Where am I headed? I've never used a piece of pirated software in my life (that I can remember), and now that I have found out about Linux and open source I will probably never have to...

All I'm saying is that to Microsoft looseing a few bucks a year to pirating wouldn't be devistating , with Novell, Mandrake, and Redhat it would be...

Actually what you said was, and I quote:


It's ok to pirate software from a big company like Micro$oft because they have a near monopoly hold on the market.

You're right, piracy is only a drop in the massive bucket that is Microsoft's revenue stream. Does that make piracy ok? I think not. They have just as much right to being paid for the products they produce as Suse, Mandrake and any of the other little guys.

[BWF89]

FREEDOM > PRACTICAL ADVANTAGES

Don't worry PoofyHairGuy. I deicded to use Linux because it was free (as in open source), I decided that I would use Linux instead of Windows before I had ever tried Linux because I believe so passinately in the values and ideals of open source, and whenever I tell people about Linux I explain to them that Linux has become what it is today because it is open source...

I think that closed & open source will co-exist. I believe in open source but I also believe that OSS isn't the right fit for everything. Take for example Half-Life 2. The developers of that game spent 6 years working on that game, they put alot of time and enegry into making it. And it shows. But do you think that HL2 could have been done with the GPL? Probably not. Now yes, I'm sure that there an OSS liscence that would fit the production of a video game but having complete freedom isn't right for everything...

[TravisNewman]

Heres how I see it: It's ok to pirate software from a big company like Micro$oft because they have a near monopoly hold on the market. It's not ok to pirate SuSE, Redhat, Mandrake, or any Linux software because they need the money to compete with M$...
Lets think about this. You think it's ok for people to pirate Windows and spread its influence, but not ok for people to pirate Linux and spread its influence... on to your next point...


If you NEED to use a M$ product and you don't want to give money to the devil, pirating is sometimes nessessary. Besides, their only looseing money if you were going to buy that product if you couldn't pirate it.

If you freakin' NEED to product, then it's worth the money. You don't NEED a computer. You don't really NEED anything but food, clothing, and shelter, and the last 2 are optional.

You talk a lot about how "evil" Microsoft is to have these views that hinder progress.

[poptones]

...the latest wave of Linux users seem to not give a damn about this philosophical freedom. Many new users like how OSS is the other kind of free, and how Linux's programs are free. Therefore the future for growth for Linux means taping the huge market that is just looking for a free lunch- if XP and Office was free (as in beer) then many of the newest converts will not come around.

Except for those people looking for the free lunch, those applications ARE free.

THAT is the problem open source software faces. To the people looking for a free lunch there is absolutely no reason to switch - they use what they know, they can play their games at yahoo and tralers at apple without any more trouble than they ever had.

What's astounding is how many of these very same people fully expect their computers to be laggy, flaky, unstablke pieces of crap that need to be completely "wiped" or "burned off" and reloaded every few months or years. To many of these folks the OS upgrades represent that opportunity - it's not so much a matter of upgrading, but clearing away the crap that has infected their machine.

Quite honestly, I don't care about those people. I'm guessing there are those who do, but after working phone support and seeing the ethics of EVERYONE involved (including the companies that sell computers and provide these tech support lines) I have come to realize it ain't the customers at fault - it's the corporations. THOSE are the people who sustain this model - they don't care if a customer pirates an app because it provides them the opportunity to deny support (thus saving them money). They also don't care about infections, because those calls get redirected to the non-free lines where the customer pays $2-$3 a minute for a tech to help them reformat (or better still, spend an hour or two editing the registry and removing files by hand).

This is what that "free lunch" crowd needs to realize: that beer they're used to ain't free at all.

I'm not saying that there isn't ANY more newcomers that what the philosophical freedom, I'm just saying from now on those people will account for a smaller and smaller percent of linux's base growth.

See above. Actually, this represents the largest potential for growth.

Why do you think so many of those countries where western notions of copyright is completely irrelevant in law are making efforts to move away from MS? A Windows user in Argentina or Korea or China is going to have the same troubles as a Windows user in the US. Which nation is better able to absorb the economic loss?

"If you value freedom, you will resist the temptation to use a program that takes away your freedom, whatever technical advantages it may have."

I would counter this remains true of hardware as well. I mention this because of that other discussion going on about AMD vs. Intel on linux, and the widespread fallacy that AMD is somehow a better bargain because the hardware is cheaper. A "tainted kernel" isn't just an ethical matter - there are real, tangible costs to doing this in terms of support and stability issues. When the Free community cannot access the information it needs to fix a problem, you are right back at the mercy of a corporation. I know this from experience - like I said: I have an AMD right now... but won't again until things change dramatically regarding available chipset support.

Raise your hands: How many regulars on this board have installed at least one proprietary piece of software?

I bet most have, seeing as how this is a desktop OS and a desktop machine almost needs to play MP3, DVDs.

You don't need proprietary software to play DVDs. There are numerous Free packages that do this. Please don't confuse patents on software with copyright. Patents do eventually expire in a much more reasonable time, and even between the US and Euroupe there are pretty large differences regarding their treatment of patents on things like algorithms and programs.

I don't have a single proprietary piece of software on this machine, and never will again - and I do play MP3s and DVDs. On Windows I paid for winzip (twice) and lost those keys long ago. I paid for Nero and, again, lost the key and cannot get support (not that I need it now). I paid for Reget and they now deny I ever did, so I have long used a warez registration tool for that - again, not that I care anymore. Bash and wget (with a little zenity thrown in) will do virtually anything you want in that regard, and do it far better than any proprietary solution - just like everything else in linux.

[poofyhairguy]

FREEDOM > PRACTICAL ADVANTAGES

Don't worry PoofyHairGuy. I deicded to use Linux because it was free (as in open source), I decided that I would use Linux instead of Windows before I had ever tried Linux because I believe so passinately in the values and ideals of open source, and whenever I tell people about Linux I explain to them that Linux has become what it is today because it is open source...


Thats good to hear. But I know (based on your posts here) that despite your love of OSS, you are still much less devoted to freedom than the debian developers that lose sleep because of the non-free software section (multiverse in Ubuntu). I mean, what do you use a computer for?

If its to be some server, then you can do it with an pure OSS OS without much sacrific. But if the Linux box is to be a desktop machine or a workstation, then you must sacrific a lot of function in order to stay pure. No Mp3 playing, quicktime watching, or 3d acceration for you.

My point is, when Linux was just THE server OS the philosophy of OSS worked hand in hand with its economic model. But now, (with newer desktop distros such as Ubuntu and Xandros) Linux is being used for more than boring servers and in this area the economic means for OSS (being free as in beer) is much stronger than the philosophical means because the philosophical means prevents needed function.

Old school linux developers seemed to hate newbies asking how to do simply things in a pure OSS environment (I got flamed for that when I tried to setup my sound in regular debian). I can't wait to see how they react to new users that not only want newbie (easy to find in google) info, but that also don't really give a damn about the OSS philosphy they love so much because it prevents function.

[poofyhairguy]

I love this board- insightful comments never come in some corners of the web.



Except for those people looking for the free lunch, those applications ARE free.

THAT is the problem open source software faces. To the people looking for a free lunch there is absolutely no reason to switch - they use what they know, they can play their games at yahoo and tralers at apple without any more trouble than they ever had.

What's astounding is how many of these very same people fully expect their computers to be laggy, flaky, unstablke pieces of crap that need to be completely "wiped" or "burned off" and reloaded every few months or years. To many of these folks the OS upgrades represent that opportunity - it's not so much a matter of upgrading, but clearing away the crap that has infected their machine.

So true. Great comment. The only thing I will argue is that for most users (aka the people who have at least 20 spyware programs on their computer), they don't PLAN on an upgrade fixing things through purging. Instead they notice that the newer version of Windows runs better (because the crapware is gone for a day) and they think to themselves "that was money well spent."


Quite honestly, I don't care about those people. I'm guessing there are those who do, but after working phone support and seeing the ethics of EVERYONE involved (including the companies that sell computers and provide these tech support lines) I have come to realize it ain't the customers at fault - it's the corporations. THOSE are the people who sustain this model - they don't care if a customer pirates an app because it provides them the opportunity to deny support (thus saving them money). They also don't care about infections, because those calls get redirected to the non-free lines where the customer pays $2-$3 a minute for a tech to help them reformat (or better still, spend an hour or two editing the registry and removing files by hand).

This is what that "free lunch" crowd needs to realize: that beer they're used to ain't free at all.

Ahh...the age old question: whats worth more, your time or your money? I must admit, thats why I switched last year; not because of the OSS philosophy or the no cost (finding a suse professional torrent is just as hard as finding an ubuntu one), but because XP was so sluggish that it was wasting my time! Multitasking sucked, even on a clean XP.

The problem is, though, for me I knew that I had the aptitude required to force Linux to save me time. I have known x86 since Tandy, and I knew that the learning curve for linux would be fun. But I don't think that Linux would save the average user any time.

Why? Because some things in linux are VERY hard to do. The Ubuntu installer was easy for me, but it would send my mom into a fit ("whats a partition? whats a hostname?" "where did you hide my windows."). But lets say thats the easy part. Then you hit the hard parts: finding drivers for things not autoinstalled such as a videocard ("whats a driver?"). Adding support for things like media out of the box (takes me five minutes, but many users could't do it with the unofficial guide and twenty years- "whats a command line?") Finding programs to do tasks most people want to do (such as burning an audio CD from MP3s in Ubuntu) can be hard. Or- biggest of all to a younger generation- getting a P2P program to work. I still haven't got that one figured out myself (bit torrent doesn't count). And this is a problem that even distros that solve all the other problems still have (SUSE for example).

So, for many, Linux wastes more time on the install than it saves in a lifetime of use. Yet I agree with you, I personally don't care if these people ever change ships.

Enough side talk, now for the meat of the discussion.



You don't need proprietary software to play DVDs. There are numerous Free packages that do this. Please don't confuse patents on software with copyright. Patents do eventually expire in a much more reasonable time, and even between the US and Euroupe there are pretty large differences regarding their treatment of patents on things like algorithms and programs.


These packages are only free in the beer sense, not the philosophical sense. The software required to play Dvds on linux is illegal in the U.S. Why? Because it uses proprietary algorithms to decoded the dvds. The algorithms are protected by the DMCA. To play DVDs, you must "taint" your OSS system, a fate to many devolpers that is worse than death! Even though the software you use is free, the techniology they use is not.


I don't have a single proprietary piece of software on this machine, and never will again - and I do play MP3s and DVDs. On Windows I paid for winzip (twice) and lost those keys long ago. I paid for Nero and, again, lost the key and cannot get support (not that I need it now). I paid for Reget and they now deny I ever did, so I have long used a warez registration tool for that - again, not that I care anymore. Bash and wget (with a little zenity thrown in) will do virtually anything you want in that regard, and do it far better than any proprietary solution - just like everything else in linux.

When RMS talks of a "free-OS," he means more than "an OS free of commercial apps." He means an OS that is free from violating copyright, patent laws, or laws like the DMCA. To play MP3s, you should legally have to pay a fee. Its a propreitary algorithm that lets you play them (or encode them).

Your Ubuntu box (just like mine), is an abomination to many OSS developers. Tainted, just like XP is.

Which, in turn, enforces my main point.

Future (as in desktop) Linux users won't give a damn about a package being "free" as long as it brings function. As the OSS developers work to make a more usuable OS, they also work to undermine the importance of OSS's philosophical goals. Why? Because new users don't give a damn about having "free" systems that won't play MP3s.

[poptones]

To play MP3s, you should legally have to pay a fee. Its a propreitary algorithm that lets you play them (or encode them).

No, not really. Fraunhoffer has never said this. Nor have they gone after users in ANY sense of the word. They own the IP and they can say, in that sense, how it is used. What they have said is "if you are a commercial entity, we now want you to pay."

There is no modern OS free from "owned" IP. Does ubuntu include the ablity to mount NTFS drives? Yes. Does that software violate any licenses? Potentially it does, since MS owns the format.

MPEG is not free in any sense. None of them. Nor is JPEG. They are "open standards" but covered by many patents owned by various entities. MPEG4 is probably worse of all in this sense. Does ubuntu include the ability to play MPEG and to view JPEGs? In many cases, yes - as do most linux distributions.

Future (as in desktop) Linux users won't give a damn about a package being "free" as long as it brings function. As the OSS developers work to make a more usuable OS, they also work to undermine the importance of OSS's philosophical goals. Why? Because new users don't give a damn about having "free" systems that won't play MP3s.

Nothing happens overnight. Actually, things have changed quite a lot - and are changing more. How many windows users do you know who use APE or FLAC or SHN? In commercial players we have Meridian's proprietary audio format, but how popular is it compared to any one of the Free alternatives?

I'm not an old man - I'm 42. I started school with the Cuban missile crisis fresh in everyone's memory and the cold war in full steam. And I remember full well how the propoganda was ingrained into us - how in some places you weren't allowed to choose your job, it was assigned to you. How people were not allowed to shop for what they wanted and stores were owned by the state. How "free enterprise" was outlawed by the state - and how much technology was, as well.

Look where we have come in thirty years. And much of this is due to the corporate propoganda of capitalism. And look where our schools are now - Coca-Cola and Nike aren't jjust brands, in many cases they are as much a name of the school as those other names like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

for the longest time people simply didn't care. I don't care now if it is technically illegal to play DVDs on my computer, I'm going to play DVDs. What I do care is who profits from this, so I attempt to pick and choose the features I pay for carefully.

Most folks don't yet care about any of it - but they're learning to. With each lawsuit against users of p2p networks, the copyright owners are increasingly MAKING all casual infringers care. They are starting to realize the unfairness of the system as it stands now. Eventually, by the time the people who may be in school today come into power, things will be different again.

[machiner]

That's what I was going to say.

It's terrific to see where this thread is going. Poptones and others have addressed root issues that I wanted to touch on, and I really can't add to. Except to say that philosophies like GPL and OSS have always been around and sustainable, just not mainstream because of notions of commerce and the expectation of consumers to be fleeced.

I tried linux when I was selling for a VAR. By the time win98 rolled around the gloss of the pc industry with the promise of win95 had faded. COllege students (this is where much "revolution" happens, ne c'est pas?) and folks like "ex-hippies" promulgated oss and linux. Of course, like many fancies of that crowd, as soon as mainstream (america for one) learned of this it was immediately frowned upon. The reasons, methods and outcomes of this are far to deep to be discussed here.

Now mainstream consumerism and those corporations that feed it had AMMO to proceed.

Anyway, I, and many like me played with linux long ago, but it was too tough to sway me from that "glazed over happiness" of pretty windows...of the hand holding into the revolution. Free or no - the work involved was too much - I was lazy already - and hey - I'm a consumer as well -- (see many preceeding comments in threads...) screw oss, screw linux, screw it all. Lousy freedom, always the cost is so high!

This time around I wanted to run apache. LAMP, the whole thing. I wanted to loose the anti-virus and work less to maintain my box. Even mdk 10 with all its bugs and windows like failings captured me from the second I booted in March.

I've always used oss and otherwise free software when I could. I've always viewed that product (software) as something that was free. THe intangible aspect of it with yet another intangible return was too great in my mind -- pay for this!? If I can write it, where's the value?

In my mind I was never considering the developers cost of bringing the product to market, the overhead of maintaining the product, etc...I just always appreciated their efforts quietly in my heart and appreciated their product. I always thought they had at least a part-time gig to pay the bills, or were 13 living at home.

It's terrific to see the spread and gradual acceptance of oss. But I think in the minds of consumers, at least at this point, it's just a reaction to proprietary software. Like voting for the "lesser of 2 evils" when american politics works. Or, NOT voting for someone on purpose for whatever reason.

I also don't think OSS will save msoft. Even "free" software on a crappy platform win't save it. THeir time will gradually end. THe philosophical aspects of OSS can begin to prevail because with this intangible and scary copmputer revolution -- the gloss is wearing down. The continued prowess of corporations to fleece us for shoddy product and expensive support is waning. Consumers want what was promised.

We'll still fall victim to a car salesman, but our desktop platform is changing.

We'll still remain ignorant of the why's and how-come's, but we'll continue to allow ourselves to be led by the leash, only now we are expecting the result to be in our favor.

Viva la Revolution!!

[BWF89]

Who cares if you use a few closed source programs on your computer? I value the freedom OSS gives us but I don't care if my PC has some MP3's on it. I listen to them. Not every piece of software has or is ever going to be free, but aslong as you try to find OSS alternatives before you buy a propriatary program it's not that big a deal...

What is the DMCA? Do they control all MP3 formats and DVD formats? Are there OSS applications to read DVD's and MP3's or since their reading a propriatary format they are propriatary programs?

Is there an OSS liscence that would work for making video games? Or would any OSS liscence cause the developers to loose money because of changing and redistributing?

[TravisNewman]

Who cares if you use a few closed source programs on your computer? I value the freedom OSS gives us but I don't care if my PC has some MP3's on it. I listen to them. Not every piece of software has or is ever going to be free, but aslong as you try to find OSS alternatives before you buy a propriatary program it's not that big a deal...

What is the DMCA? Do they control all MP3 formats and DVD formats? Are there OSS applications to read DVD's and MP3's or since their reading a propriatary format they are propriatary programs?

Is there an OSS liscence that would work for making video games? Or would any OSS liscence cause the developers to loose money because of changing and redistributing?
DMCA is the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which basically protects electronic formats in general.

Everyone on this thread who really cares about open source (those of you who say "I don't care about politics" or "I don't want religion on my computer" might change your mind as well) should read Embracing Insanity:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0672319896/qid=1104336134/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-6736852-1535364?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

That will show you exactly where Open Source has been and where it's going. Personally, I don't care if the people who just want a free lunch stick around at all, because they really won't help the cause that much, if any, but if we can change their minds about their reasons, then we're helping to shape the movement.

[wazoo]

I have two takes on OSS.

First, as a public library administrator, I'm interested in SUSTAINABLE public computing. OSS is high quality, inexpensive (you can't call it free when it takes time to install, time to read up, time to troubleshoot, time to get tech help when necessary), and less prone to malware. Moreover, OSS can be maintained even if a company goes out of business.

Second, the people who create OSS also have to make a living. I have contributed to several distributions, both financially and with various writing tasks, for the selfish reason that I want them to stick around. They do good work, and have added great value to my own computing experience. It's an obligation of honor: you repay people who help you, or after awhile, there's nobody LEFT to help you.

[poptones]

That will show you exactly where Open Source has been and where it's going. Personally, I don't care if the people who just want a free lunch stick around at all, because they really won't help the cause that much, if any, but if we can change their minds about their reasons, then we're helping to shape the movement.

It's actually more likely the lawsuits are going to change their minds.

The mainstream press is owned by the copyright holders. No matter how "the movement" grows, you're not going to hear much about in mainstream media until the Disneys and Microsofts figure out how to own and control it.

One thing that "we" need to do is to be more strict about IP law issues. I realzie this sounds odd after just saying I don't care about the laws I'm going to watch DVDs, but what I mean is "sharing" music (for example) and copies of software and looking aside when friends ask for help running (or obtaining) warez. If the average person isn't made uncomfortably aware how the ridiculous laws affect them, then they'll never do anything to change them.

[BWF89]

How are lawsuits going to change peoples minds. When people "share" information it is usually burned CD's or MP3's which is illegal no matter where you go, not programs...

[costoa]

Paid for software? Oh man, over the last 20 years since my first "real" computer, a Mac SE30, I've paid out maybe $10k to $20k USD. The PostScript license on my LaserWriter II NT must have been about 25% of the $4k price tag (yes, $4,000 USD for a laser printer). There's been Photoshop, Illustrator, Aldus PageMaker, Mac OS 7.x to 10.2x, games, MS Office for Mac and MS Windows, many versions of Realbasic (nice application) and so one. 98% now sits in a box unused.

One few software related items I didn't mind paying for was Redhat Network, about $80 per year. RH was my distro of choice and even though I didn't need to buy it the price was good, I felt I was helping them a little, I had quick access to updates and disk images. When they kill off RH Linux 9.x I switched to Gentoo, and then Ubuntu (what a sweet distro, be we all knew that anyways). =)

I've had it with paying for all my software. I've bought a few programs over the last year like Alcohol 120%, Dr. Divx and Nero for my video work but that's about it. BTW, I'd pay for something like RH Network for Ubuntu, because the distro has real value. Otherwise I make due with FOSS or write it myself (GPLing the code after it's finished and never looking back).

Paying for software isn't bad, it's just gotten way out of hand in the MS Windows and Mac world. Although if Photoshop ran well under WINE I'd might buy the newest version (with my academic discount of course).

I think MS is seeing a small revolt growing against expensive software. You can now buy an academic version of MS Office without any proof of an academic connection most anywhere for about $130. Typical MS, when they're the only game in town they'll bleed you dry, if they have to compete they'll sell their product or give it away to drive to competition out of business. Of course it's almost impossible to kill off a FOSS application (like OpenOffice) so they cut the price of MS Office and let people "lie to buy cheap".

BTW, didn't ubuntuforums pay for vBulletin? It's a good example for reasonably priced software that works well (from the user end that is).

Rant finish, I'll go away now. =)

[poofyhairguy]

Who cares if you use a few closed source programs on your computer?

RMS, many Debian developers, and many others who do a lot of the OSS grunt work.

[zenwhen]

I will admit that I went from using several hundred dollars of pirated software to NONE when I made the switch to Linux. I could never force myself to buy software.

[costoa]

(Note: I personally have little problem with a home user pirating something but have a big problem when it's a major corporation making millions in profit.)

I use to work in the corporate offices for a very, very large hotel chain and the Technology Manager of reservations was a wicked pirate. We'll call him "DC" (not his real name). Here's a few examples:

Softwindows (x86 virtual machine application for Mac): We needed about 200 copies so he buys one and copies it to 200 Macs. The application would look out through the IP subnet for an identical serial number and would fail to run if it was found. The software vender quietly allowed multiple copies but only allowed one license to run at a time (pretty fair and helpful if you only needed it once in a while and shared). DC notices that the license serial number is on the outside of the box. He calls up the vendor, orders 200 copies on a purchase order that never existed, get the copies, writes down all 200 serial numbers and returns them saying they're product was "junk".

MS Office: DC wouldn't even buy the first copy to pirate. A local computer shop gave us a copy to try, having to buy or return in 30 days since it could've lead to a sale of a 100 copies. DC gets Office, copies the CD and photocopies the license, and returns it to the store. Next week a 100 copies were installed.

NetWare 3.x: We bought a minor upgrade from Novell (still 3.x) and were required to shred the old copy. Instead DC builds a new server and sends it off to another office.

Sybase: We were licensed for one Sparc box with one CPU. He had it running on four Sparc boxes, three with three CPUs and the one with one CPU. It was about $500k "out of license".

Some MS-DOS networked database: We were told if we called the company for tech support (which was free at the time) we'd be fired. It turned out our license was for 30 users and we had over 200. About $50k "out of license".

The guy was an idiot. His "crown" screw up was when we moved from IBMs (about 200 real "Big Blue" 286 machines) to Macs Quadras. He decides to bundle up all the IBM stuff including the Token ring network gear, inventory, move it to a trailer and have it auctioned off. About a month after the sale IBM comes back and says all that stuff was leased. The lease said if we did not have physical possession of the leased equipment we'd have to pay for the rest of the lease and pay the new full factory purchase price (about $2k per machine). It cost the company atleast $500k USD even after what was made on the sale of said equipment and this guy still got a $10k bonus that year.

Some jobs I do not miss. My point is if this happened today and we were using FOSS it would've of made everyone's life easier. Pirating software in the corporate world is so common it's not even funny. Many times IT managers strongly "hint" to employees to just steal an application because they need it to do there job but there's no money to buy it. If the company gets caught they lay the blame on the employee and can them.

IMO this is while Ubuntu belongs on every possible corporate desktop instead of MS Windows.

I should say my current employer is extremely honest. It's the only company I've worked for that every piece of software is legal (something rather uncommon). Pirating software for any reason will get you fired and no one is ever asked to break that rule. The cost is hurting us and that's why they like my push from MS Windows to Ubuntu. They're even willing to buy telephone support from Canonical when we make the move (something I insisted on).

[machiner]

I worked as a sysadmin for a secure lab in Mass - they were the only place that I ever worked for that had licenses for all of their applications, users, platforms. These folks worked military contracts and almost all of the principals were retired military, so that's probably why.

Everywhere else, VAR's and other companies - at least 65% begged, borrowed, or stolen.

[mark]

Short answer - yes.

Long answer - just as I won't watch pirated VHS or DVD movies or listen to "bootlegged" CDs, I won't use "filchware". If a piece of software is made freely available by its author, I will use it. If the license states that it is "free" and freely distributable, I will use it. If the licensing terms are questionable or if there is an implied expectation of payment, I either find an alternative, don't use it...or I pay.

Regarding the semantics of "free" software, I'll leave that to some student of Korzybski. If an author intends their software to be "free", then I will take all advantage of their intentions. If, on the other hand, there are expectations of payment (or other licensing complications), I'll look elsewhere - or buy the software in question.

This has less to do with great questions of ethics and morals than it does with what I feel comfortable with. I think, for me, it's more about the author's (or artist's) intentions than the legal verbiage of the license.

[Mira]

I'm very sad to say I bought winXP home edition......just because I couln't buy a laptop without it. Guess I'll just have to sell that crap to someone else...it's a practically new CD...enough idio....ehm..I mean...misinformed people who think that they need *******.

What I did intentionally however was paying Mandrake for a year long silver membership....and not even using their stuff. Can't get it to work like I want it to. Probably my major issue with that distro is them promising to make easy stuff and then delivering stuff that actually needs major tweaking to get it to work. I even liked Debian better then Mdk. Debian worked....I like stuff that works

Maybe one day I'll buy a Mac. It sure won't have ******* one it...no way it'll have ******* on it......right? :-k

[flaming_monkey]

This is a very interesting discussion. The whole spectrum of opinions, personal stances and even the occasional dip into the moral and ethical pro's and con's of the issue.

I believe I am synonymous with the average computer users having owned more pirated software than legally purchased. Being a new convert to the world of Linux after doing a google search for "free beer", I'm almost completely legit, aside from the MP3 collection. Hypocrisy is my party trick.

As for the larger issue of software piracy, I have this view:

It seems there's a link between ideology and the moral sense of what's acceptable in terms of piracy. Microsoft (spelt with an 'S') is huge, we all know that, we also know that people love to hate it, just as people like to hate Nike, McDonalds and FOX. They're easy targets, so when it comes to their products being pirated (or stolen) it's another way for those same people to put two fingers up them. However, when it's a small company, or even a Linux distro like SUSE, then it's different, it's wrong somehow to pirate their software.

I know some people pirate software and never question it, others give it a fleeting thought and then continue loading CloneCD. My point is with those who try to reason their illegal acts. If you are to pirate software, admit that what you are doing it technically illegal and morally wrong. You can then try to rationalise these acts out later, using excuses such as "it has buggy bloated code", "the company has an unfair monopoly", "I can't afford it" or "it's Microsoft so who cares?" but you must first start with the cold hard facts.

All of which is just my opinion.

[word_virus]

Oh, irony. The only piece of software I have ever paid for in my life was DVDXCOPY earlier this year and since then they've been sued out of existence by the MPAA, so no more updates, support, etc. for my legally obtained software. Don't even think I can re-install it in the event of an hd crash since it has to "phone home" for a registration key!

Anyone know if there's an open-source equivalent to this fine program?

[poptones]

Oh, irony. The only piece of software I have ever paid for in my life was DVDXCOPY earlier this year...

Anyone know if there's an open-source equivalent to this fine program?

Talk about irony! They used all kinds of GPL code in that bastard program. The fellow who ran 321 CLAIMS they "rewrote the entire program" but even if this were true the fact is the company built itself on the backs of numerous GPL contributors without giving them back a thing. So that program you paid for was actually illegit and, technically, just as "illegal" as any bit of warez you ever ran.

Anyway, have you tried mencoder? It's part of mplayer. Not a GUI tool but essentially even easier. Once you have a command line you like just make it a script and invoke it on any dvd you want. There are many tutorials online, and the man page is the size of a phone book covering all the options (if you want to go more in-depth).

[BWF89]

I'm very sad to say I bought winXP home edition......just because I couln't buy a laptop without it. Guess I'll just have to sell that crap to someone else...it's a practically new CD...enough idio....ehm..I mean...misinformed people who think that they need *******.
You can take your unused copy of Windows back to where you bought your computer and by law they have to give you a full refund for it. It's in the EULA agreement that if you don't agree to lisencing terms you can take it back...

Remember the market day protests?


Maybe one day I'll buy a Mac. It sure won't have ******* one it...no way it'll have ******* on it......right? :-k
Microsoft owns 150 million dollars of Macintosh's stock. So even if you buy a Mac with the intetention of not helping MS you can't. Plus the fact they MS bundles IE and Word with most Macs, though you might be able to remove them...

[machiner]

Yeah -- that's funny...by law, blah, blah, blah.

Correct, but a difficult endeavor, nonetheless.

Good luck with that.

[clasqm]

So, nevermind the MS stuff, how many of you have paid for *Linux* software?

I have. Textmaker for Linux. Fine piece of software, and it runs with exactly the same file format and features on my windows box at work and my iPAQ. Google it. Buy it

<No, I do not work for Softmaker>

[Dylanby]

I bought Cedega two weeks ago & am considering buying CrossOver too.
I'm also thinking about picking up NWN since I can play it natively.

[Joeb]

I'm all for free software in the "free as in beer" context. But, I must admit, I was suprised to see a significant number of posts referring to using hacked, cracked, stapled or otherwised mutilated software.

To answer the original question, yes, I have purchased software, but only if there wasn't an alternative available. In the early days of PCs, I tried a lot of shareware programs and those that I actually kept and used, I paid for. I also have purchased various copies of Windows and Microsoft Office and antivirus programs. Yes, I could get it for free, but honestly, I do believe you should pay for what you are using, unless the vendor says otherwise.

Now, that we are predominately an all Linux household (for the past five years), I countinue to pay for software. How? Well, sometimes I purchase a distro or more often, I make a "contribution" to the distro. Some might ask why would I do that when I can get it for free? Well, I want to continue getting it for free and the developers need to support their families, too.

Just my two cents.

Joeb

[Jarz Corp]

n

Yes I pay for the commercial software I use:

I have a XP for gaming and only for gaming and yes I pay for my games too.

All your excuses are making me sick; I pirate software because I don't like this and this company. Well there are loads and loads of good free alternatives, the only major problem is which one to choose.



And how do I know this. Because I am surrounded by people like U every day, and because I got fired from my last SysAdm job because I couldn't accept a company that had the same software policy.

Grow up and pay for your software like U have to pay for everyting else in life. If I don't like a certain brand of car or more importantly the price of it, I don't steal it I simply choose some other form of transportation.

I have a dream: That one day all commercial software will be impossible to crack, then and only then will linux and software like it start to actually matter in this world.

And don't get me wrong, I love linux and have done for years, and with ubuntu I can finally start getting my friends to move platform as well. Even those who don't give a damn about .conf files and init.d stuff.

Peace.

[Segovia]

I agree Jarz. I'm not a thief either. Nothing more repulsive to me than people who steal from the safety of their keyboard.

Software I own and paid for includes: Windows XP, Acrobat, Photoshop, MS Office, Quark (MAC version), NewsBin Pro, NewsLeecher, and a variety of games.

Office, Acrobat, Quark, and Photoshop I use for business. I have no choice, I must use them with Windows XP (Quark I use on MAC OS-X). No big deal, just part of the cost of doing business.

[Gandalf]

WOW i guess i feel alone in this topic almost all of you have paid at least for one software, i use computers daily since the first day i had my 486 computer and till now i've never paid a software :$ i always go to my favorite andr.XXX site to get serial/cracks, BUT that's history now, i have two boxes at home both running ubuntu, i have windows (NOT STOLLEN BUT GOT IT WITH MY LAPTOP SO NOT ACTUALLY BOUGHT ;) ) only to play "return to castle wolfenstein" i didn't even install M$ office..... so i guess i'm the only thief here :-P lol :D

[KiwiNZ]

I dont believe it is a good look to have threads regarding Warez etc, So I am dipping into my box of keys ,* chink , clank rattle*

[bored2k]

My DL DVD Recorder had Nero 6. My CDR62 Recorder had Nero 5. My Samsung Recorder had Nero 6 Express. They say it's free, but you now 1/4 of the price of the recorders go to Nero. A friend worked at TrendMicro, so I got cool registrations ;-). I bought Need For Speed III a while back.

That's it.

[bored2k]

I dont believe it is a good look to have threads regarding Warez etc, So I am dipping into my box of keys ,* chink , clank rattle*
Go ahead.