Are you an Ubuntu religious fanatic?

[airjaw]

You know, someone who denigrates and judges people who don't subscribe to your religion? (eg. windows users, mac users)

Someone who is unwilling to accept criticism of your faith, and instead resorts to insulting people who dare question all that you consider good and holy? (eg. getting defensive when people criticize Ubuntu)

Someone who gets off by demonstrating your knowledge of said religion and is mean, insulting, and rude to newcomers to the faith? (eg. 'RTFM'. 'Try harder n00b'. 'Use your brain')

Someone who is out of touch with reality and thinks that just because your anecdotal experience went without any problems, that these problems don't exist for other people?
(eg. 'I didn't have any problems myself! Whats wrong with all you people?')

Someone who has an US vs. THEM mentality, who sees the world in only black and white, good vs. evil, and who is sure that your side is the good side (of course, how could it not be?) and that everyone else is "them" and on the evil side? (eg. insulting windows and windows users at every opportunity. believing every windows users is a sheep or computer idiot or just an idiot overall)



I've just come from the "Bye Ubuntu" thread* where I read many helpful posts, many ignorant posts, and many disturbing border-line fanatical posts. I felt like I had to post this in order to HELP the Ubuntu community out. Yes I said "help". I help in my own way by contributing my input with no other intention but to improve Ubuntu. I'm sure some of you consider what I write to be of no real help at all and that the real help really comes from the developers and programmers who put time and effort and actual coding into Ubuntu. I wouldn't argue that my "help" is equal to theirs. It is just what I have to offer as I am not much of a coder, just a user.

Its evident to me that some of you have taken a great OS and turned religious. Now this happens quite a bit in the computer world, whether your religion is Unix, a programming language, or just any general philosophy about how you think things "should be". Maybe its because most of us computer-junkies tend to be atheists and its human nature to need some kind of philosophical or religious framework in which to believe in and guide us. I won't get into that but I will say that those of you who have taken Ubuntu and turned it into a religion are losing sight of the big picture.

Your users are a valuable part of your community, and their input should be taken seriously. From what I've seen, Ubuntu as well as their users want Ubuntu to spread far, far, far to the holy lands and beyond. This would be great not only for the Ubuntu religion but also for the Ubuntu faithful, as more users = more hardware support from Vendors and possibly more money and more developers. So you have something to gain from new users and from what I've seen (I'm not sure what the Ubuntu philosophy really is but this is what it seems like), Ubuntu markets itself as the most user-friendly Linux distro. Now maybe that is not what Ubuntu is trying to be and maybe I have it all wrong. But I am willing to bet that that is the impression many users got when they switched over from XP to Ubuntu. If these users were sent inconsistent messages then it is up to the community to address that and apologize. NOT blame the users and proceed to go all Starcraft firebat on them. If these users somehow got the wrong idea then it would be helpful for you to tell them that they are mixed up and have the wrong expectations.

Edit:: A clearer way of saying this would be to use an example. Lets say there was a new animal out, a "new kind" (Ubuntu) of cat (Linux flavor) that was marketed towards dog-owners (Windows users). These dog owners were looking for a change and wanted to try these new cats out, which were supposedly easier to own and train and care for than the usual cat breeds (any hard, complicated flavor of linux). So the dog-owners try out the new cat and while they find a lot of things they like, a cat can never be a dog and they don't like that giving orders to cats just doesn't seem to work (command line?) and that their pets are harder to understand and more complex (using ubuntu vs. using windows) than dogs. Sure, these cats might be more rewarding and have deeper personalities (Ubuntu and linux) but these dog owners really didn't care for that in the first place. The problem lies with marketing cats as something they are not and could never truly be. Cats and Dogs owners know this and stick to the pet of their choice, the one that suits their personality. As long as people understand what each pet offers, and there is no misleading or inaccurate marketing of the pet, both sides are happy. The dog owner isn't expect a cat and the cat owner is not expecting a dog.
Maybe that wasn't so clear but you should get the picture. Ubuntu marketed as user-friendly OS when in reality Linux takes more time and investment to learn than windows. Linux users getting all upset when Windows users are confused and frustrated because linux users know what linux is. Maybe ubuntu users should talk to the people that are marketing Ubuntu as something it is not, or at least , is not yet.

I'm going to go with the former: that Ubuntu is trying to be the most user-friendly OS and convert XP users. Great! That's not a bad goal. Ubuntu has a lot going for it and even offers a helpful community. But oh no, we have a problem. Things in Ubuntu don't work right off the bat and the learning curve seems to be a little too much for these new users. Whose fault is it? What do you do? Well you certainly shouldn't blame the users. They did what you wanted them to do: they gave it a try and installed Ubuntu, and let you know about the problems they had. That way you can go about fixing those problems and hopefully making Ubuntu better as time goes on. While there are many helpful people on the Ubuntu forums, you also have religious fanatics who see it as their divine religious duty to ridicule these newcomers. They have it all figured out, or at least have the knowledge and experience to figure it out, and thus look down upon those unfortunate who don't. Their only response is to "figure it out" and "learn". Well if that is the Ubuntu philosophy then so be it, there is nothing wrong with that. Linux isn't for the faint-hearted and takes investment and intelligence to learn. But to insult users who were mistaken about what Ubuntu was or trying to be is simply something that is unnecessary and shouldn't be done. The Ubuntu community should try to come to a consensus about what Ubuntu wants to be and what the community's job should be. If there are people on the forums acting a certain way that is against Ubuntu philosophy, then those users should be either banned or moderated. Instead they are tolerated and that sends a confusing signal to new ubuntu users who thought that the community was going to be helpful. Why did they think that? I don't know, maybe because Ubuntu marketed itself that way.


This went on longer than I had expected and perhaps wasn't as written as clearly as I would have liked but for now it does the job, which was to highlight the plight of those newcomers who wanted nothing but to embrace Ubuntu, even with all its initial flaws and problems and frustration, and were instead met with scorn and derision. I feel for those people because I have been there, and the world is a cruel, cruel place already. We certainly don't need more cruel people on a forum called Ubuntu, of all the forum names in the world. This should be a safe place, a haven where people can go with their problems. Please, if you're an Ubuntu religious fanatic, check yourself and do some introspection. Are your motives in the right place?
If you're an Ubuntu forum moderator, please decide what you will do with users who do not post in the spirit of Ubuntu.
If you're neither of these and are a helpful, kind member of the community, then hopefully you would speak up for what you know is right.



For what my anecdotal experience is worth, I have dual boot on both desktop and laptop. Installed Ubuntu 1.5 years ago, used for about a year, went back to XP recently, now 50/50 on Ubuntu and XP. Some of you have think using a free OS and not being a windows sheeple is important, and you contribute all you can to FSF or open source and you spread the good word of Ubuntu and Shuttlesworth and Torvalds and Stallman. That is great. I used to be like that too, until things in Ubuntu kept breaking for me and I realized that I just wasn't as faithful as all of you. I didn't have the know-how to fix any thing and I didn't really want to learn. I tried, I fixed some things, gave up on others. Maybe they could have been fixed, maybe not. The most I could offer to the Ubuntu community was to be a user and to tell my friends as well as you about my experience, including both my praise and my criticisms. Really, that's all some of us have to offer. I'm not sure I fit into the newbie category anymore but lets pretend I do. We have nothing but good intentions and we provide a way of looking at the OS that you might not agree with or be comfortable with - mainly usability and ease for people who use GUI as a crutch. We represent every Grandma, Grandpa, Mom, Dad, and stereotypical music-downloading youtube watching college or high school teenager who uses Windows. We want to stay. Please don't make it any harder for us.

Thank you.
Godbless and Godspeed Ubuntu.

[Methuselah]

Someone who says 'Bye ubuntu' isn't asking for any help so rightfully they shouldn't get any.
If someone wants help with a problem they should ask for it on the very busy help forums.

[frankleeee]

Borderline is the key word.

[airjaw]

OK I think I have it figured out. I did some thinking for a few hours after my original post. This is what I came up with. Please discuss as this is an actual issue that I put thought into. Not some rant/flame/goodbye message.

The problem, and reason for all the mis-communication with the newcomers to Ubuntu and the seasoned linux users comes down to misconceptions of what Ubuntu is supposed to be. Newcomers to Ubuntu expect it to be as easy to use as Windows and are confused and frustrated when it is not. Some of the Ubuntu users don't believe that Ubuntu should be like windows and believe that Ubuntu, like linux distros traditionally are, require investment, time, intelligence, patience, and sacrifice. Hence we have two sides that don't understand each other at all.

The windows converts that experience frustration and give up should never have been enticed to try Ubuntu in the first place. They would never have signed up for this if they knew what being an Ubuntu and linux user actually entailed. Now before you go on blaming them, ask yourself why they bothered to try ubuntu in the first place? Well, the answer probably is that they were either misled by Ubuntu's marketing or misled by Ubuntu hype. It's highly improbable that these users sought out Ubuntu on their own by coming to these misconceptions of what it was on their own. They didn't come to these misconceptions about CentOs or Mandriva or openBSD.

There are two different and competing philosophies at work here of what one expects an OS to be. People who expect Ubuntu to be like Windows expect everything to work out of the box. That means wireless, sound, graphics, everything should work and not break. They can't understand why , when they have what they view as a simple problem, they need to go through all this trouble and command line junk to fix something that works in Windows.

Now, the Ubuntu users understandably get a bit upset when they see users have problems who don't bother to fix it or spend time understanding what is going on. WHY? Because that is their philosophy: linux is meant for poking around in , fixing things yourself, get under the hood, etc. It was never meant to be a one click, GUI oriented, Windows clone, and fixing your own problems through command line doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

So really, Ubuntu community needs to decide, What is Ubuntu going to be? What is Ubuntu striving to be?

If Ubuntu is supposed to be as easy to use or better than Windows, then all the excuses need to STOP, immediately, ASAP. Things should work, upgrades shouldn't break your system, sound, graphics, wireless, the whole package should be stable.

If that is NOT what Ubuntu is trying to be, then somewhere the misconceptions NEED to be put to rest. So far, I have not seen ANYONE on ubuntuforums.org explain clearly what Ubuntu's philosophy is or what the OS is trying to be. If Ubuntu never really wanted to be as easy to use as Windows, and assumed that the user should LEARN how to fix things on their own in shell and to expect to have to come to forums and expect to face a lot of hardware issues as well as general ubuntu design flaws, then that should have been made clear. and evidently, was not. Because people view Ubuntu differently than the other linux distros.

your thoughts? All in all, Ubuntu is a fine OS. i'm not trying to criticize it here, only point out what I think is a huge divide and misunderstanding between beginning users and the Ubuntu community. If you guys made it clear to frustrated users what Ubuntu is and what it isn't and will never be, they will have a more direction and perspective with which to make their decisions.

[aysiu]

I'm also concerned with what our goals are and how we achieve them. I wrote up a little piece about this on my blog:
The Linux community’s mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/)

You can't say "Try it. Try it. It's better than Windows," and then when someone tries it and has a bad experience say "What did you expect?"

You have to have a consistent message and let people know of potential problems at the beginning.

[airjaw]

I'm also concerned with what our goals are and how we achieve them. I wrote up a little piece about this on my blog:
The Linux community’s mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/)

You can't say "Try it. Try it. It's better than Windows," and then when someone tries it and has a bad experience say "What did you expect?"

You have to have a consistent message and let people know of potential problems at the beginning.

That's a very good blog post and you expressed basically what I was attempting to say in a clear and (more insightful) way. I posted my entry on my blog as well but yours will do :)

[LLauranzonIII]

I'm up for an Ubuntu crusade....

Comparing to religious fanaticism is silly.

[frankleeee]

If you purchase a computer new or used with a setup distribution of any type and do not need to add programs or drivers, and have no problems, commonsense should tell you that trying a new install or distribution with only the experience of a purchase may take a lot of work. In a perfect world the problems mentioned in this thread would be addressed, but this is not a perfect world. Educate yourself before you act, and don't take anecdotal evidence as a truism.

[airjaw]

If you purchase a computer new or used with a setup distribution of any type and do not need to add programs or drivers, and have no problems, commonsense should tell you that trying a new install or distribution with only the experience of a purchase may take a lot of work. In a perfect world the problems mentioned in this thread would be addressed, but this is not a perfect world. Educate yourself before you act, and don't take anecdotal evidence as a truism.

I don't really get what you're trying to say. Can you explain ?

[frankleeee]

I agree that it would be nice if there was a common understanding by everyone in the world of any distribution and the variables of problems associated, and that every persons description of any distribution was the same. The problem is the variables, like hardware, understanding, distributions, communication, etc etc etc, in other words the problems associated with the argument are to complex and unmeasurable for any kind of working solution other than educating yourself before acting.

[airjaw]

I agree that it would be nice if there was a common understanding by everyone in the world of any distribution and the variables of problems associated, and that every persons description of any distribution was the same. The problem is the variables, like hardware, understanding, distributions, communication, etc etc etc, in other words the problems associated with the argument are to complex and unmeasurable for any kind of working solution other than educating yourself before acting.

Well, I agree with that, but there is a problem here: users are trying Ubuntu without educating themselves. There must be some message Ubuntu community or organization was sending that would get all these newcomers to the OS, and I don't think that what you just said was included anywhere in that message.

If Ubuntu was not free, and their success depended on people buying the OS and not returning it, we probably wouldn't have this marketing problem. Ubuntu wouldn't send mixed messages about what it is or isn't and there would be a very clear philosophy of who they are targeting with their OS and what the OS claims to be. If the OS is what they claim to be then they market it a certain way, those people buy and they are satisfied. If the OS is not what the marketing claims to be then they have just attracted the wrong users and they will be faced with lots of returns, unsatisfied customers, and will probably go out of business.

[aysiu]

Well, I agree with that, but there is a problem here: users are trying Ubuntu without educating themselves. There must be some message Ubuntu community or organization was sending that would get all these newcomers to the OS, and I don't think that what you just said was included anywhere in that message. I think you're giving too much the benefit of the doubt here.

New users get plenty of education--miseducation. They read news stories, blogs, and websites that make Ubuntu sound flawless and make it sound as if it's the solution to all Windows problems. Very few of those outlets that tout Ubuntu as this wonderful thing tell you to buy it preinstalled or tell you you have to do some research on hardware compatibility.

[airjaw]

I think you're giving too much the benefit of the doubt here.

New users get plenty of education--miseducation. They read news stories, blogs, and websites that make Ubuntu sound flawless and make it sound as if it's the solution to all Windows problems. Very few of those outlets that tout Ubuntu as this wonderful thing tell you to buy it preinstalled or tell you you have to do some research on hardware compatibility.

Maybe it is the hype from these blogs and websites.. maybe. You are probably on here more than I am so you could answer that question more definitively than I can. My question to you then, is what message does Ubuntu send? Meaning the organization and on a secondary level, the community.

From what I have read on these forums, no one is telling frustrated newcomers what they need to hear, and that does not help erase the misconceptions people come i here with.

(I would say to users something like this: Hello and welcome to the forums! I'm sorry to hear you're having problems. First I'd like to make it clear that Ubuntu does have a learning curve that some users may find difficult and uncomfortable! This is not Windows, and you may have problems with your hardware and getting it all to work. We do our best though to help you with any problems but you must be prepared to roll up your sleeves and do some learning and troubleshooting yourself! That is the part of the Linux culture that you have just joined. We are not Windows and we don't strive to be! Part of the fun is learning the insides of your system. Of course, we are working on making everything work "right out of the box", but due to some vendors not providing drivers for us we are having a tough time and are simply not there yet. You might be able to get your problem fixed if you post details in the forum and ask for help. If you do need everything to work right away and must go back to Windows, we understand. We just hope you keep a dual boot and check back with Ubuntu from time to time as we are working on making Ubuntu not only as user-friendly as possible for all you Windows users but also just as stable and powerful for all us Linux power users!)

maybe with a few less exclamation points but you get the picture.
I don't ever see anyone explaining things clearly like that. I see a lot of insults, I see a lot of "well Ubuntu isn't for everyone" - yes thats correct, but maybe you could have saved them a bad impression of Ubuntu and the community if it was clear what Ubuntu OS was in the first place, I see a lot of people claiming everything worked well for them and they can't possibly comprehend why things didn't go as smoothly for everyone else, which of course does nothing at all and helps no one)

Ubuntu community is strong no doubt, but there is something not quite right with how new users are treated and the conceptions they come in here with. Either Ubuntu is as easy as Windows (cuz thats what many expect) or it isn't. Make the message clear and we won't have so much animosity here.

[aysiu]

I think by the time someone posts an "I'm leaving" or "Ubuntu sucks" thread here, anything we do at that point is just damage control. It's reactive, not proactive.

It's better to be honest about potential problems and have people be pleasantly surprised than to overhype Ubuntu and then try to "Aw shucks" people back into giving it another chance after they see Ubuntu not living up to the hype.

I don't know if in every instance people are disappointed because of having read hype on blogs and websites, but I know that hype is a big contributor to the disappointment problem.

[Samhain13]

The windows converts that experience frustration and give up should never have been enticed to try Ubuntu in the first place. They would never have signed up for this if they knew what being an Ubuntu and linux user actually entailed.

Enticement is a legitimate method of promoting any sort of product-- be it a tangible one like a hammer, or an intangible one like a philosophy. Frustration is a natural reaction to dealing with challenges, like running a totally new operating system, especially for one who is not a computer expert.

What does being an Ubuntu/Linux user entail? For one thing, the ability to overcome frustration. Another would be the humility and willingness to seek help and to learn from others.


Now before you go on blaming them, ask yourself why they bothered to try ubuntu in the first place? Well, the answer probably is that they were either misled by Ubuntu's marketing or misled by Ubuntu hype. It's highly improbable that these users sought out Ubuntu on their own by coming to these misconceptions of what it was on their own. They didn't come to these misconceptions about CentOs or Mandriva or openBSD.

It would also be fair to assume that people try Ubuntu because they have been frustrated by using other things. And while it is highly improbable that those people sought out Ubuntu on their own, it is also highly probable that those people had already been looking for a solution to an already existing problem.

It can be said that Ubuntu is hyped. But no matter how hyped one thing is, if a person is using a product that has proven itself, that person isn't going to just replace that proven product with the hyped one. So it begs to question: is it really the new users' misconception about Ubuntu that has led them here or is it their own dissatisfaction with what they're currently using?

Cheers! :)

[airjaw]

Enticement is a legitimate method of promoting any sort of product-- be it a tangible one like a hammer, or an intangible one like a philosophy. Frustration is a natural reaction to dealing with challenges, like running a totally new operating system, especially for one who is not a computer expert.
It depends again on the message. Enticing users to use Ubuntu because its easier to use than windows is, in my opinion, borderline highly inaccurate. Enticing people to use Ubuntu because of different advantages that they may not have realized is legitimate.


What does being an Ubuntu/Linux user entail? For one thing, the ability to overcome frustration. Another would be the humility and willingness to seek help and to learn from others.



That is fine and I'm glad you're honest about that. I wish more newcomers knew that.


It would also be fair to assume that people try Ubuntu because they have been frustrated by using other things. And while it is highly improbable that those people sought out Ubuntu on their own, it is also highly probable that those people had already been looking for a solution to an already existing problem.

It can be said that Ubuntu is hyped. But no matter how hyped one thing is, if a person is using a product that has proven itself, that person isn't going to just replace that proven product with the hyped one. So it begs to question: is it really the new users' misconception about Ubuntu that has led them here or is it their own dissatisfaction with what they're currently using?


That's true that is could be possible they are coming here for problems with their existing OS. It is also possible that they didn't have many problems with their existing OS and were enticed to try Ubuntu for whatever reason. We wouldn't really know unless we ask every Ubuntu user, but from the posts I've read of some users who left Ubuntu I can say that Windows pretty much worked for them and they wanted to try/use ubuntu for whatever reason: Support the community, support open source, try linux out, not be looked down upon by linux users, etc. I myself came to try Ubuntu on a mix of the strengths of developing on linux, the ideological movement towards free and open source software and to be part of a community doing something new, and the expectation that I (hopefully) wouldn't endure too much frustration as Ubuntu had made alot of things easier. Indeed it did and has come very far.


Again I ask, what does Ubuntu want to be? If Ubuntu wants to retain new users, it needs to decide whether they will focus on getting everything as user-friendly as possible and make the communities a place where newbies can feel safe and not be flamed. Their misconceptions of Ubuntu should be pointed out from the very start and the philosophy should be made clear.

If Ubuntu does not want to be as "easy" to use as Windows, and will always require the user to invest time and endure frustration in learning the new OS and linux, then that should be made clear as well.

[aysiu]

Read these two links and tell me they tell people what problems to expect when migrating from Windows to Ubuntu:
http://www.vapaeso.info/2007/06/09/ubuntu-an-alternative-to-windows-and-mac/
http://hollaformore.info/?p=12

I honestly believe people don't mind putting in the work and adjusting to a new culture if they are expecting to do so. If, however, you lead them to expect a magic potion, you'd better give them a magic potion.

[airjaw]

I think by the time someone posts an "I'm leaving" or "Ubuntu sucks" thread here, anything we do at that point is just damage control. It's reactive, not proactive.

I don't see many people expressing the sentiment that "Ubuntu sucks". I see many people expressing their frustration with what they would like Ubuntu to be and how Ubuntu doesn't meet those expectations.

now, if this problem is rare, then we can just chalk it up to a few misled people buying into the hype from blogs or wherever.

If this problem is common, then there is miscommunication going on somewhere. Does Ubuntu want those users or not? If Ubuntu doesn't want users who aren't willing to learn and go through the frustration then they shouldn't send messages to attract those users in the first place. Maybe the flaming from certain members of the community does a good job of sending the message that those windows users aren't wanted in the first place. So, lets not attract those users here and give them bad impressions of Ubuntu if the message is that we don't want them here.

[airjaw]

Read these two links and tell me they tell people what problems to expect when migrating from Windows to Ubuntu:
http://www.vapaeso.info/2007/06/09/ubuntu-an-alternative-to-windows-and-mac/
http://hollaformore.info/?p=12

I honestly believe people don't mind putting in the work and adjusting to a new culture if they are expecting to do so. If, however, you lead them to expect a magic potion, you'd better give them a magic potion.

That's a good way of describing it, and my belief is that the people frustrated here expected magic potions! Now where did that message come from? Ubuntu hype from articles and blogs, or the Ubuntu community itself?

[loell]

the philosophy should be made clear.

Ubuntu philosophy is clear (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy)



If Ubuntu does not want to be as "easy" to use as Windows, and will always require the user to invest time and endure frustration in learning the new OS and linux, then that should be made clear as well.

Ubuntu is made up of free softwares, these huge array of projects do aim to be better, easy? ( maybe that's subjective , but i guess easy is part of being better) , ubuntu have no control over them.

[Irihapeti]

That's a good way of describing it, and my belief is that the people frustrated here expected magic potions! Now where did that message come from? Ubuntu hype from articles and blogs, or the Ubuntu community itself?

I would say, all of the above - although let's be careful of thinking of "the community" as though it were a monolithic entity; it might be more correct to say "some members of the community".

To that one could add an element of wishful thinking or wanting to find magic potions. Many people (and I'd put myself in this category from time to time) want to believe that something is going to be better than it actually is, the solution of all their problems. Didn't someone once say something about the "triumph of hope over experience"?

[bmac]

Ubuntu community is strong no doubt, but there is something not quite right with how new users are treated and the conceptions they come in here with. Either Ubuntu is as easy as Windows (cuz thats what many expect) or it isn't. Make the message clear and we won't have so much animosity here.

I don't understand why it's Ubuntu's responsibility to explain that it's not Windows. Your assumption is that many individuals install Ubuntu expecting it to be a free Windows clone and are dissatisfied when learning that it requires an effort. I've never installed any software prior to assuring that said software would function on my system. Fundamentally, it's my responsibility to assure that my system has the resources and is compatible, prior to selecting any software. Investigating an OS prior to installation, learning basic procedures and understanding differences would eliminate many of the issues you've noted. Unfortunately, many individuals hear about Ubuntu and just assume their system is compatible or that it will function just like Windows, instead of performing their own investigation.

Insinuating that somehow Ubuntu or this forum is responsible, eliminates personal accountability and infers that all users are like sheep. All of us had to learn an OS at some point. Why doesn't Windows have a disclaimer that states it's not Linux and requires a learning curve? If (as you imply) the installer shouldn't be responsible for investigating and understanding the nuances of the new software - Who should? As for the philosophy of attracting new users, I've never read anything that indicated Ubuntu was attempting to entice XP users. As a matter of fact the majority of posts (I've read) on this forum indicate that personal freedom is critical and suggests that each individual should use "what works best for them". You indicate that Ubuntu users are endeavoring to attract Windows users at any cost. I disagree...

I've never read an assistance post that demeaned or in any way suggested the OP was stupid. All assistances responses I've read or replied to were genuine and taken seriously. I believe the members of this community (as a whole) endeavor to assure a successful result, unless the OP deliberately titles their post in a derogatory manner. And they do it for free.....

Hopefully, you agree that it's each individuals responsibility to take accountability for their actions.
If someone "chooses" to install an alternative OS on their system without investigating the OS to assure a successful outcome, the liability for success should reside directly with that individual. Making excuses, deferring the responsibility or blaming the OS / this forum is only an immature reaction to failure. I believe that most intelligent people have learned that success is almost always based on failure and ignorance is only an excuse when information is not available. If that makes me an Ubuntu Religious Fanatic, then so be it...

***This is just my opinion and in no way should reflect on this forum. As I truly believe this is the most respectful and assistance oriented forum on the net.***

[frankleeee]

i don't understand why it's ubuntu's responsibility to explain that it's not windows. Your assumption is that many individuals install ubuntu expecting it to be a free windows clone and are dissatisfied when learning that it requires an effort. I've never installed any software prior to assuring that said software would function on my system. Fundamentally, it's my responsibility to assure that my system has the resources and is compatible, prior to selecting any software. Investigating an os prior to installation, learning basic procedures and understanding differences would eliminate many of the issues you've noted. Unfortunately, many individuals hear about ubuntu and just assume their system is compatible or that it will function just like windows, instead of performing their own investigation.

Insinuating that somehow ubuntu or this forum is responsible, eliminates personal accountability and infers that all users are like sheep. All of us had to learn an os at some point. Why doesn't windows have a disclaimer that states it's not linux and requires a learning curve? If (as you imply) the installer shouldn't be responsible for investigating and understanding the nuances of the new software - who should? As for the philosophy of attracting new users, i've never read anything that indicated ubuntu was attempting to entice xp users. As a matter of fact the majority of posts (i've read) on this forum indicate that personal freedom is critical and suggests that each individual should use "what works best for them". You indicate that ubuntu users are endeavoring to attract windows users at any cost. I disagree...

I've never read an assistance post that demeaned or in any way suggested the op was stupid. All assistances responses i've read or replied to were genuine and taken seriously. I believe the members of this community (as a whole) endeavor to assure a successful result, unless the op deliberately titles their post in a derogatory manner. And they do it for free.....

Hopefully, you agree that it's each individuals responsibility to take accountability for their actions.
If someone "chooses" to install an alternative os on their system without investigating the os to assure a successful outcome, the liability for success should reside directly with that individual. Making excuses, deferring the responsibility or blaming the os / this forum is only an immature reaction to failure. I believe that most intelligent people have learned that success is almost always based on failure and ignorance is only an excuse when information is not available. If that makes me an ubuntu religious fanatic, then so be it...

***this is just my opinion and in no way should reflect on this forum. As i truly believe this is the most respectful and assistance oriented forum on the net.***

+1

[Sef]

Moved to Community Cafe.

[Samhain13]

That's true that is could be possible they are coming here for problems with their existing OS. It is also possible that they didn't have many problems with their existing OS and were enticed to try Ubuntu for whatever reason. We wouldn't really know unless we ask every Ubuntu user, but from the posts I've read of some users who left Ubuntu I can say that Windows pretty much worked for them and they wanted to try/use ubuntu for whatever reason...

Ah! See, that is where the so-called hype comes from: the testimonials or reports of Ubuntu users that we come across and get us enticed to try out the OS. I, for one, got interested in Ubuntu because a friend blogged about 6.10. It's not equivalent to asking every Ubuntu user his or her reasons, but going through the numerous postings on the Internet gives us a clearer picture than if we were to make blind assumptions.

Of course, balanced views are not hard to come by as well. These forums alone have a fair share of good (enticing) and bad (uninviting, discouraging) testimonies. Often, the bad is even more interesting!

Regarding the possibility of people not having problems with their current OS: again, I will maintain that one does not dive into Ubuntu if there is no need to replace the current OS. Sure, there are people like yourself who want to try Ubuntu out to learn, to support Open Source, etc. But if these are the reasons one has, then one should not feel so frustrated when faced with a few challenges because overcoming challenges is a part of learning and supporting Open Source. However, if replacement is the goal and learning is not an option, then the best option is to get a pre-installed, pre-configured Ubuntu.


Again I ask, what does Ubuntu want to be? If Ubuntu wants to retain new users, it needs to decide whether they will focus on getting everything as user-friendly as possible and make the communities a place where newbies can feel safe and not be flamed. Their misconceptions of Ubuntu should be pointed out from the very start and the philosophy should be made clear.

From my own experience with forums, this one has to be one of the most noob-friendly communities. But as with real-life communities, if you don't want trouble, you have to know how to be civil. From what I've seen here, the only people who are prone to flaming are those who open their posts with a bit of chest-thumping like, "I've been using computers since 199x and I'm familiar with commandline interfaces, having come from a DOS background..." That kind of thing is annoying when done in real life, it's also annoying when done in a virtual setting. But that has been said often enough.


If Ubuntu does not want to be as "easy" to use as Windows, and will always require the user to invest time and endure frustration in learning the new OS and linux, then that should be made clear as well.

Ubuntu is as easy as to USE as Windows, it's just not as easy INSTALL/CONFIGURE (on some hardware combinations). But don't take my word for it as I do not have any experience in installing and configuring any version of Windows-- I don't even know how. :D

[revleo]

i do not feel like a fanatic but then a fanatic would not recognise being so by the very definition so i will let you judge and tell me just today had a neighbor ask me for help with a virus issue on his windows machine he knows i am an A+ ceritfied tech so called me over and had me look at it i offered some solutions windows wise such as free Antivirus via Grisoft and of course clamAV as a spot checker for files and then i offered to burn him an ubuntu CD for him to try via the Live CD (love that feature BTW ) great for compatibility checks on hardware and i kept emphasizing if he didnot like it not to install it and if he did install it to back up all info and be ready to reload windows if he did not like after install so i burned him an 8.04 disc and for good measure a puppy 4.00 for when he is not at his computer then i went into his home and had him load the CD and play with the live cd environment i did not do it for him i had him do it as it iseasier to teach to fish than to give a fish he liked it and wanted to load then i said wait and try it out for a week or more then make up his mind so you tell me am i fanatical let me know

[mikjp]

No, I am relativistic and agnostic when it comes to the distributions. As long as the distribution is an open source OS, it is OK for me.

[ukripper]

Probably market needs to change its stance sooner or later to adopt ubuntu as a whole or in a philosophical way.

Ubuntu ain't religion but can be regarded as a path to freedom in the computer world!

Right to freedom of expression is not fanatism!

[airjaw]

There's a lot of good replies in here with points that I didn't consider. Thanks everyone for contributing. It would help if the kind of newcomers to Ubuntu whom I refer to a lot in my theories could join in but it isn't completely necessary, I guess.

Re: the person that said this is the most noob-oriented forum he's been on

I agree to an extent. There is a lot of help and patience being given out of my members. Some of the posts I saw just rubbed me the wrong way. Probably not representative of the community as a whole at all and I admit that. I did see some members speaking up against the flaming and that made me more positive.

RE: the philosophy
1. Every computer user should have the freedom to download, run, copy, distribute, study, share, change and improve their software for any purpose, without paying licensing fees.
2. Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice.
3. Every computer user should be given every opportunity to use software, even if they work under a disability.

I read that before I made my OP. I know that it says nothing about making things "easy" or making linux "like windows" but it seems to focus heavily on the "computer user". Users are probably confused from the hype and have conceptions that Ubuntu is something that its not. Maybe Ubuntu can release some kind of Free PDF guide that gives a good intro to Ubuntu and Linux in general. Acknowledge that there is a learning curve for users accustomed to windows. I actually am not even sure there is a learning curve for some of the things in Ubuntu. Like the xorg.conf file, or getting the sound to work, or ndiswrapper and wireless settings. I see a lot of people giving answers to what users should do, and its a long list of technical things and commands that are not explained at all. Frankly, that is scary. If something broke already, its probably a big risk to go around typing things in that one doesn't exactly understand and which aren't explained either. I always watch to see if changing all those settings helped and more than half the time it doesn't seem to. Wasn't that like 3 hours work? What was really learned from that?

[airjaw]

I don't understand why it's Ubuntu's responsibility to explain that it's not Windows. Your assumption is that many individuals install Ubuntu expecting it to be a free Windows clone and are dissatisfied when learning that it requires an effort. I've never installed any software prior to assuring that said software would function on my system. Fundamentally, it's my responsibility to assure that my system has the resources and is compatible, prior to selecting any software. Investigating an OS prior to installation, learning basic procedures and understanding differences would eliminate many of the issues you've noted. Unfortunately, many individuals hear about Ubuntu and just assume their system is compatible or that it will function just like Windows, instead of performing their own investigation.

Well it really all comes down to whether Ubuntu organization mismarketed itself and whether some in the community helped by hyping it up. If either of these are true and users came in here with misconceptions, that is up to the community to make clear. that's part of the investigation for new users, who realy have nothing to go on but what other ppl say.




Insinuating that somehow Ubuntu or this forum is responsible, eliminates personal accountability and infers that all users are like sheep. All of us had to learn an OS at some point. Why doesn't Windows have a disclaimer that states it's not Linux and requires a learning curve? If (as you imply) the installer shouldn't be responsible for investigating and understanding the nuances of the new software - Who should? As for the philosophy of attracting new users, I've never read anything that indicated Ubuntu was attempting to entice XP users. As a matter of fact the majority of posts (I've read) on this forum indicate that personal freedom is critical and suggests that each individual should use "what works best for them". You indicate that Ubuntu users are endeavoring to attract Windows users at any cost. I disagree...
Ah, the "Windows has a learning curve as well" argument. Again it really depends on whether you're trying to attract Windows users. I thought Ubuntu was and it seems to be that way to me. If I'm wrong then there's no need to discuss this. But I sense that there are others who have had this misunderstnading as well, from some of the EI's i've read on this forum.



I've never read an assistance post that demeaned or in any way suggested the OP was stupid. All assistances responses I've read or replied to were genuine and taken seriously. I believe the members of this community (as a whole) endeavor to assure a successful result, unless the OP deliberately titles their post in a derogatory manner. And they do it for free.....

You probably read these forums more than I do so I'll take your word for it. Myself I did see some zealous users attacking other ppl for switching back to Windows. If you don't think Windows users are ridiculed and insulted on a regular basis here you might have grown so accustomed to it that you don't even notice it. Why are these insults tolerated? Maybe its just part of the linux culture. I say Phooey to that. I don't want to be part of anything like that.

From aysiu, one of the Ubuntu forum staff:

"Is using Windows okay or not?
Many Linux users will make fun of Windows users for using Windows, say that Windows is garbage, say that Windows users are sheep for using Windows and not Linux. Then, I think it’s these same Linux users who, when a frustrated new migrant to Linux complains about her hardships in migrating, will reply with “Go back to Windows” or “Why don’t you just stick with Windows, then?”

Either Windows is a valid choice, or it’s not. Make up your mind.

If you’re okay with people using Windows, stop making fun of Windows or its users. If you’re not okay with people using Windows, don’t tell them to go back to Windows if they’re experiencing problems with Linux. "


Hopefully, you agree that it's each individuals responsibility to take accountability for their actions.
If someone "chooses" to install an alternative OS on their system without investigating the OS to assure a successful outcome, the liability for success should reside directly with that individual. Making excuses, deferring the responsibility or blaming the OS / this forum is only an immature reaction to failure. I believe that most intelligent people have learned that success is almost always based on failure and ignorance is only an excuse when information is not available. If that makes me an Ubuntu Religious Fanatic, then so be it...

***This is just my opinion and in no way should reflect on this forum. As I truly believe this is the most respectful and assistance oriented forum on the net.***

Sure I understand that its individuals responsibility. But its your responsibility to point out misconceptions they have as well, as a community. Again, I think it would help a great deal if there was a Ubuntu guide that people could be pointed to that would address a lot of their misconceptions about what the learning curve is and some basic things that newbies to linux should learn. If you go to China, certainly it is your own responsibility to learn Chinese. But if you go in there with misconceptions about what Chinese is, you won't learn reality unless someone there clues you in. Until then you just feel stupid and frustrated, which is what I see in a lot of EI's on this forum. People are the same everywhere. No one wants to feel stupid.

[caravel]

I do think there are a breed of Linux users that like to look down on windows users, though I don't think there are many on here (well I haven't come across many anyway). All of my questions have been answered with the exception of one, though sometimes it is hard to get responses I've never had any insulting or condescending ones.

What I have seen in other non support threads is a lot of anti windows sentiments that doesn't do the poster of such comments, nor UF as a whole, any favours. If someone is constantly attacking and rubbishing something it gives the impression that they see it as a threat. It's also not very endearing behaviour and will not return the poster any respect.

A lot of people have to use windows as they've no choice in the matter. This can be due to specific software that they need, games they want to play or their work. It is perfectly ok for these people to dual boot and try out Ubuntu to see if it appeals to them.

On the subject of irate new users posting "bye" thread. Some of the responses I see to these threads lead me to believe that some people must lead charmed lives as far as computing goes. I've been computing since about 1990 and during that time I've been through my fair share of scrapes. I know how it feels when your system goes down and you've been up all night trying to fix it to no avail - whether windows, linux or anything else. Finally you get to the reformat stage and then something else crops up. Been there done it etc etc etc.

You have to remember that many of the people posting these threads are in this kind of situation. It's kind of like when you're calling the police trying to tell them that a crime is happening right now and they need to get here now and they respond with "ok now speak clearly, name? address...". It's frustrating.

As to the "bye" threads in particular, I'm guessing that most of these are people from a Windows background like myself. They have probably gone through the install ok and then got to installing a driver, trying to get wireless working or trying to install a program. Many will see the familiar GUI and think "I know how this works!". They will then start browsing the net searching for drivers - windows style. After they get a few files on the desktop they have no idea what to do with and another driver in source code, they'll arrive here and proclaim that the OS "sucks" and that "I don't expect to be a programmer" or "I cannot accept that I have to use the command line" or "windows just works". A lot of this is frustration coming from people who actually may have thought they knew a lot about OS's. Moving to something like Ubuntu can be humbling. Typically they vent and post the goodbye threads we see all to often. Doesn't mean they're bad people, it just means that that's how human nature is.

Is this the fault of marketing? Perhaps, partially, but I would put most of this down to the hype that is generated about this distro in particular. How do users get to know about Ubuntu? I'd say through their peers mostly and not through other means. Maybe through forums as well. But this is how most of the hype is generated.

In reality everyone should try to turn these "bye" threads around. Yes they will probably go back to windows, but they should leave saying:

"Ubuntu was not for me, the forums were very helpful but in the end I could not resolve the problems I was having"

And not something like:

"Ubuntu is just unusable and only a geek OS for those that are into programming. I was ridiculed and told to go back to windows"

The user should be pleasantly surprised at the response to their thread. Yes some are blatantly trolling and not worth the effort, but in such cases ignoring the thread is better than replying with a sarcastic "waving goodbye" smiley and a smart comment to go with it.

What the OP means by "fanatics" refers to those that simply follow the banner and have the "them vs us" attitude that is so damaging to the image of Linux as a whole and probably keeps more potential users away than any other aspects of the OS. It's these people that post the "oh and windows is stable?", "what do you expect it's free?", "go and pay for Vista", etc etc etc type comments.

[clanky]

I think some people do have a religious fanaticism for Linux which blinds them to the fact that while for the most part Linux is a fantastic system, it has weaknesses.

I have seen a few threads recently where people have pointed out problems that they have been having and have been treated like Linux bashing trolls for doing so. While in some cases people could have been more constructive in outlining their problems the sort of **** off back to windows responses that were received were not justified.

I think the best example of this was the recent thread on an article written by a BBC journalist who wrote about his personal experience with installing Ubuntu, because he mentioned problems that he had with his wireless internet and that he found the CLI intimidating he was branded as stupid, a liar and in the pay of Microsoft.

[bmac]

It appears you have some sort of alterer motive. When you wrote this (below quote), you defined what your motive might be (at least to me). [-X
This could be misconstrued as you attempted to act naive about why Ubuntu members respond a certain way. This response actually infers that you've had this argument before and were expecting my statement. Odd...


Ah, the "Windows has a learning curve as well" argument. Again it really depends on whether you're trying to attract Windows users. I thought Ubuntu was and it seems to be that way to me. If I'm wrong then there's no need to discuss this. But I sense that there are others who have had this misunderstnading as well, from some of the EI's i've read on this forum.

My intend was to express an opinion regarding individual accountability and responsibility. Instead you chose to dissect my response. Yet in your quote, it's apparent that you believe I shouldn't have used Windows as the example. No other OS (including MAC) that I'm aware of has any similar disclaimer. Not just Windows. Based on your response they aren't attempting to attract Windows users either. Maybe we should have a separate section on the forum labeled Expectations & Trolls. Both of which could provide individuals with a forum to express their dissatisfaction with Ubuntu and the community, based on lack of understanding. I'm always amazed when individuals complain after downloading and installing a free OS and then make no attempt to learn. They complain about it not being Windows, that it's not user friendly, the GUI doen't look or function like Windows, etc. Yet they gladly pay to install Windows when purchasing a new system. This mandates the questions - Why not pay someone to install Ubuntu???? Problem solved...


Sure I understand that its individuals responsibility. But its your responsibility to point out misconceptions they have as well, as a community. Again, I think it would help a great deal if there was a Ubuntu guide that people could be pointed to that would address a lot of their misconceptions about what the learning curve is and some basic things that newbies to linux should learn. If you go to China, certainly it is your own responsibility to learn Chinese. But if you go in there with misconceptions about what Chinese is, you won't learn reality unless someone there clues you in. Until then you just feel stupid and frustrated, which is what I see in a lot of EI's on this forum. People are the same everywhere. No one wants to feel stupid.

Again your deferring individual responsibility. It is my responsibility to learn Chinese prior to traveling there, if I wish to communicate with the people. I don't have to, but it certainly would improve my visit. Of course I may not be completely fluent, but would be capable of basic communications.
Then we agree, it is my responsibility to learn prior to becoming involved. One potential reason for someone feeling stupid is that they didn't learn prior to involvement. I guess people aren't the same everywhere. Most of my friends and family believe in personal accountable and responsibility. They don't blame others for their own ineptitude. Instead they endeavor to improve there abilities and learn. The only misconception is the lack of effort in time spent learning.


You probably read these forums more than I do so I'll take your word for it. Myself I did see some zealous users attacking other ppl for switching back to Windows. If you don't think Windows users are ridiculed and insulted on a regular basis here you might have grown so accustomed to it that you don't even notice it. Why are these insults tolerated? Maybe its just part of the linux culture. I say Phooey to that. I don't want to be part of anything like that.

My statement was:

I've never read an assistance post that demeaned or in any way suggested the OP was stupid. All assistances responses I've read or replied to were genuine and taken seriously. I believe the members of this community (as a whole) endeavor to assure a successful result, unless the OP deliberately titles their post in a derogatory manner. And they do it for free.....

I did qualify this statement by noting that "unless the OP deliberately titles their posts in a derogatory manner". I also am aware that hostilities occur occasionally when individuals argue over terminology or whine because it isn't Windows and generally that occurs in the Testimonial section. But for the vast majority of requests - rarely if ever have I read a response that deliberately endeavored to make an individual feel stupid. You inferred this takes place on a regular basis - which I totally disagree with and take exception to.... You also completely ignored the point in that paragraph - The forum members do this for free. Maybe the question to ask is "why". Is it personal satisfaction, geek, or god syndrome? I prefer to believe that the community acts in it's own self interest. By sharing information and ideas they contribute to success. Both their own and others... Attempting to alter this philosophy would in my opinion, have a detrimental impact on this forum and the OSS community as a whole. Individuals such as yourself want Ubuntu to be polished (just like Windows) and perfect OOTB. It's my opinion that's the last thing Ubuntu users wish for. They know that can only be achieved by bloating and/or losing their ability to modify the OS. Which is the primary motivation for many users... They don't want to become main stream "Just Like Windows" users.

Remember, you referred to Windows in your original posting and I simply used your familiarity with that OS as a reference. Please do not waste time attempting to divert or reduce the impact of my statements by using term such as "Ah, the "Windows has a learning curve as well" argument". It just sounds petty and in no way addresses the issue. You endeavor to reduce impact by taking quips from a posting and expounding on them (as I just did). This is a poor way of communicating and only serves individuals who can't draw conclusions from entire documents. I believe this distracts from the message and is done deliberately. This particular type of communication is normally used only to imprint a single ideology, often by the media (sound bites). It's intent is to detract from the overall content and re-enforce the responders individual theories and philosophy.

I find this attempt to itemize each statement ridiculous and have no desire to continue providing you with a platform. I now choose (imagine that) to withdraw and not waste any more of my time bickering. Instead I will search the forum in an effort to assist another user. Which I believe is the primary purpose of this forum. But I could be wrong...

Good luck with your quest.....

[Yellow Stevens]

As a bit of religious person I have to say I don't think there are too many 'religious' fanatics among these forums.

I think the only way that Ubuntu forum membership and religion are alike in my opinion comes with unrealistic goals.

To give an example from religion: You set you goal of converting the entire world to evangelical religion, when this doesn't happen you start to believe in some evil force holding you back and you become suspicious of things that don't fit with the 'truth', then you start to think that global warming is a liberal atheistic conspiracy, and that US forces in Iraq were sent there to achieve God's will, finally you become vice president.

I think those who are trying to replace Windows, by tomorrow with Ubuntu probably get frustrated and less likely to listen to those who disagree with them.

I think (and I speak here as a total noob who only joined this forum the other week and knows nothing about Ubuntu really) that this kind of thinking can be avoided if we set ourselves realistic goals.

For example Linux currently has 1% market share I think we should have the goal of Ubuntu having 1% market share. I think that would be a good business model too, after all if you set up a company competing in a field with a near monopoly you would aim initially to have a foot hold rather than replace the monopoly.

So, I suppose if you are a bit of a fundamentalist you should make a point of listening to those who have other viewpoints and incorporating their views into your own world view. Learn to be presently surprised by what you find in the world, and personally I have to say, I've always tried to avoid running anything like Alaska.

[uberdonkey5]

...

For example Linux currently has 1% market share I think we should have the goal of Ubuntu having 1% market share...

he he, that is so ambitious.:lolflag:

Personally, computers are frustrating and sap peoples lives away. I mean, its 00:02 in the morning and I have to get up early and instead I am writing a post about a tool that I use for work. Can you imagine a discussion group on 'pliers' and us getting excited about market share, he he.

People rant about windows, ubuntu, hardware, software, networks... its all rubbish. Brothers (and sisters), lets go out in the fresh air and walk barefoot on the grass...

[ukripper]

lets go out in the fresh air and walk barefoot on the grass...

Naa man, the grass is wet here.. ain't walking without slippers!:)

[airjaw]

It appears you have some sort of alterer motive. When you wrote this (below quote), you defined what your motive might be (at least to me). [-X
This could be misconstrued as you attempted to act naive about why Ubuntu members respond a certain way. This response actually infers that you've had this argument before and were expecting my statement. Odd...

Yes I had ulterior motives. The ultimate ulterior motive was to get Ubuntu fanboys to acknowledge that there is a possibility that they could have become religious zealots. I will admit to that. The title should fill you in enough. As for me acting naive about Ubuntu members responding a certain, you are ultimately wrong. As several others have pointed out already (including yourself), behavior across these forums doesn't seem to fit the picture that I painted. That is probably because I just came from the 138 page "Bye, Ubuntu!" thread and my perceptions were based on mostly that thread. Since I don't have time to go reading every post on this forum, gathering data about some strange feelings I had regarding the behavior in that thread, I posed questions here for the community to answer. Some of those questions are legitimate, and which still have not been answered, which is why I keep asking them. Even Ubuntu users and community moderators have asked those questions before, both in this forum and outside. And still, no one can give a straight answer.



My intend was to express an opinion regarding individual accountability and responsibility. Instead you chose to dissect my response. Yet in your quote, it's apparent that you believe I shouldn't have used Windows as the example. No other OS (including MAC) that I'm aware of has any similar disclaimer. Not just Windows. Based on your response they aren't attempting to attract Windows users either. Maybe we should have a separate section on the forum labeled Expectations & Trolls. Both of which could provide individuals with a forum to express their dissatisfaction with Ubuntu and the community, based on lack of understanding. I'm always amazed when individuals complain after downloading and installing a free OS and then make no attempt to learn. They complain about it not being Windows, that it's not user friendly, the GUI doen't look or function like Windows, etc. Yet they gladly pay to install Windows when purchasing a new system. This mandates the questions - Why not pay someone to install Ubuntu???? Problem solved...
You completely miss the point of my argument. I admit that I completely ignore your argument as well, because I have the power to do so as the original starter of this thread. I will elaborate for you. Responsibility is not what we're arguing about here. I believe in personal responsibility just as much as any of you. However, for some reason, users come to Ubuntu with unrealistic expectations. Now why is that? They don't seem to be flocking to RedHat or any of the other OSes. If they are and are having the same frustrations on the RedHat forums, then you can quickly point out that I am wrong about that and that this phenomena happens to every Linux distro. If I am not wrong, then people came in with unfair and unrealistic expectations and should be set straight. The community needs to send out a consistent message. Do you want Windows users or not? Do you want the "average joe"? Now I realize that you aren't in charge of marketing for Ubuntu and that most of you don't make those decisions. Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion, but hey its a forum and I felt that posting here would be better than sending a one-way email to Canonical that may or may not have been returned. So its very simple, in my mind. What does Ubuntu want? I mean, I would like to know this question as well, so I can have an idea of where Ubuntu is heading! Right now I simply have no idea, and if I am to invest time in learning an OS (like all of you say users must) then I need information to decide whether I actually want to. I am taking personal responsibility here by doing my research and asking the community what Ubuntu stands for. No, not the word, and no don't paste the 3 Ubuntu guiding principles. I've already read those and I still don't have a clear idea. I thought I knew once, but that idea was shattered after my experiences.




Again your deferring individual responsibility. It is my responsibility to learn Chinese prior to traveling there, if I wish to communicate with the people. I don't have to, but it certainly would improve my visit. Of course I may not be completely fluent, but would be capable of basic communications.
Then we agree, it is my responsibility to learn prior to becoming involved. One potential reason for someone feeling stupid is that they didn't learn prior to involvement. I guess people aren't the same everywhere. Most of my friends and family believe in personal accountable and responsibility. They don't blame others for their own ineptitude. Instead they endeavor to improve there abilities and learn. The only misconception is the lack of effort in time spent learning.
Think about it like this. China all of a sudden has a bunch of immigrants who dream of a better life. For some reason or another, they got the idea that China would be "immigrant-friendly". Meaning things would be setup so that life would not be much different than it was back home, lets say, America (Windows). Maybe the Chinese gov't even marketed their country this way to get more immigrants.

Ok yes, it was the responsibility of the immigrants to actually do some research and preparation. However, it is also the responsibility of China not to mismarket itself. This is what most of you cannot understand and I don't blame you. Why are users coming in and expecting all these sorts of things? Ubuntu is not Windows. They need to invest time. Etc etc. I don't blame you for thinking that way and I have to say that the problem is probably with the marketing team or maybe a few ubuntu users that thought it'd be a cool idea to hype Ubuntu up and get as many windows converts as possible. If so, that is the responsibilty of the community to address.



My statement was:



I did qualify this statement by noting that "unless the OP deliberately titles their posts in a derogatory manner". I also am aware that hostilities occur occasionally when individuals argue over terminology or whine because it isn't Windows and generally that occurs in the Testimonial section. But for the vast majority of requests - rarely if ever have I read a response that deliberately endeavored to make an individual feel stupid. You inferred this takes place on a regular basis - which I totally disagree with and take exception to.... You also completely ignored the point in that paragraph - The forum members do this for free. Maybe the question to ask is "why". Is it personal satisfaction, geek, or god syndrome? I prefer to believe that the community acts in it's own self interest. By sharing information and ideas they contribute to success. Both their own and others... Attempting to alter this philosophy would in my opinion, have a detrimental impact on this forum and the OSS community as a whole. Individuals such as yourself want Ubuntu to be polished (just like Windows) and perfect OOTB. It's my opinion that's the last thing Ubuntu users wish for. They know that can only be achieved by bloating and/or losing their ability to modify the OS. Which is the primary motivation for many users... They don't want to become main stream "Just Like Windows" users.
I'll concede that you are probably more right than wrong as the majority of Ubuntu forum members strive to be helpful. Again, it comes down to what Ubuntu is trying to be. Maybe I do want Ubuntu to be more polished. I certainly never said anything of the sort in this thread (or at least I can't remember saying). I merely asked questions because its not about what you
want Ubuntu to be. It's about what the community and where Mark Shuttlesworth or Canonoical or whomever is actually going to take Ubuntu. I read the 8.10 release for Jaunty jackelope and I didn't get any idea really, so here I am, still searching for answers. Your vision of Ubuntu, while valid, is not good enough for me because unfortunately, your opinion alone does not determine where Ubuntu is headed.


Remember, you referred to Windows in your original posting and I simply used your familiarity with that OS as a reference. Please do not waste time attempting to divert or reduce the impact of my statements by using term such as "Ah, the "Windows has a learning curve as well" argument". It just sounds petty and in no way addresses the issue. You endeavor to reduce impact by taking quips from a posting and expounding on them (as I just did). This is a poor way of communicating and only serves individuals who can't draw conclusions from entire documents. I believe this distracts from the message and is done deliberately. This particular type of communication is normally used only to imprint a single ideology, often by the media (sound bites). It's intent is to detract from the overall content and re-enforce the responders individual theories and philosophy.I apologize if I ignored or belittled your argument but again, that particular argument has nothing to do with what my point is here. That is a whole nother discussion reserved for another time and which has been rehashed a million times over. I'm trying to talk about potential mismarketing here.


I find this attempt to itemize each statement ridiculous and have no desire to continue providing you with a platform. I now choose (imagine that) to withdraw and not waste any more of my time bickering. Instead I will search the forum in an effort to assist another user. Which I believe is the primary purpose of this forum. But I could be wrong...

That's your choice. Thanks for participating in my thread.

[airjaw]

...
I think the best example of this was the recent thread on an article written by a BBC journalist who wrote about his personal experience with installing Ubuntu, because he mentioned problems that he had with his wireless internet and that he found the CLI intimidating he was branded as stupid, a liar and in the pay of Microsoft.

That is the kind of behavior I am talking about. In my opinion it is unhealthy and I don't like to see any of it going on here. But I guess that is part of the "culture"? As an Ubuntu user I feel like its my duty to give my input and point out what I think is wrong. I've already introduced one of my friends to Ubuntu and maybe I'll introduce my kids someday and I don't want them to install Ubuntu and all of a sudden become so emotionally involved that they lose all sense of decency towards people not like them.

We are influenced by the communities we are involved in, consciously and subconsciously.

[airjaw]

I do think there are a breed of Linux users that like to look down on windows users, though I don't think there are many on here (well I haven't come across many anyway). All of my questions have been answered with the exception of one, though sometimes it is hard to get responses I've never had any insulting or condescending ones.

What I have seen in other non support threads is a lot of anti windows sentiments that doesn't do the poster of such comments, nor UF as a whole, any favours. If someone is constantly attacking and rubbishing something it gives the impression that they see it as a threat. It's also not very endearing behaviour and will not return the poster any respect.

A lot of people have to use windows as they've no choice in the matter. This can be due to specific software that they need, games they want to play or their work. It is perfectly ok for these people to dual boot and try out Ubuntu to see if it appeals to them.

On the subject of irate new users posting "bye" thread. Some of the responses I see to these threads lead me to believe that some people must lead charmed lives as far as computing goes. I've been computing since about 1990 and during that time I've been through my fair share of scrapes. I know how it feels when your system goes down and you've been up all night trying to fix it to no avail - whether windows, linux or anything else. Finally you get to the reformat stage and then something else crops up. Been there done it etc etc etc.

You have to remember that many of the people posting these threads are in this kind of situation. It's kind of like when you're calling the police trying to tell them that a crime is happening right now and they need to get here now and they respond with "ok now speak clearly, name? address...". It's frustrating.

As to the "bye" threads in particular, I'm guessing that most of these are people from a Windows background like myself. They have probably gone through the install ok and then got to installing a driver, trying to get wireless working or trying to install a program. Many will see the familiar GUI and think "I know how this works!". They will then start browsing the net searching for drivers - windows style. After they get a few files on the desktop they have no idea what to do with and another driver in source code, they'll arrive here and proclaim that the OS "sucks" and that "I don't expect to be a programmer" or "I cannot accept that I have to use the command line" or "windows just works". A lot of this is frustration coming from people who actually may have thought they knew a lot about OS's. Moving to something like Ubuntu can be humbling. Typically they vent and post the goodbye threads we see all to often. Doesn't mean they're bad people, it just means that that's how human nature is.

Is this the fault of marketing? Perhaps, partially, but I would put most of this down to the hype that is generated about this distro in particular. How do users get to know about Ubuntu? I'd say through their peers mostly and not through other means. Maybe through forums as well. But this is how most of the hype is generated.

In reality everyone should try to turn these "bye" threads around. Yes they will probably go back to windows, but they should leave saying:

"Ubuntu was not for me, the forums were very helpful but in the end I could not resolve the problems I was having"

And not something like:

"Ubuntu is just unusable and only a geek OS for those that are into programming. I was ridiculed and told to go back to windows"

The user should be pleasantly surprised at the response to their thread. Yes some are blatantly trolling and not worth the effort, but in such cases ignoring the thread is better than replying with a sarcastic "waving goodbye" smiley and a smart comment to go with it.

What the OP means by "fanatics" refers to those that simply follow the banner and have the "them vs us" attitude that is so damaging to the image of Linux as a whole and probably keeps more potential users away than any other aspects of the OS. It's these people that post the "oh and windows is stable?", "what do you expect it's free?", "go and pay for Vista", etc etc etc type comments.

Thank you for your insight. I'll admit that the few "bad apples" who feel the need to respond sardonically to every user who left Ubuntu stand out in my mind more than the polite ones do. Maybe thats because polite and respectful people don't draw attention to themselves and obnoxious and rude people do. In reality the respectful members here outnumbers the bad ones, probably by a huge margin. :)

Yes, its a banner issue. In my opinion, Ubuntu has become something of a religion. I even get swept up in it at first, maybe because the message was so compelling and I"m just the type of idealistic person that gets swept up into movements. Strong feelings and support for your cause is important. But a balanced view of your own faults and weaknesses has its merits as well. That's all I'm trying to do for some people. Restore a sense of balance. Why? Because it'd help Ubuntu reputation and community as a whole I believe.

[issih]

There is probably too much ubuntu hype out there, a lot of it comes from the myriad blogs and websites of the user base, who are (like most humans) an excitable bunch...I don't think its fair to blame canonical or ubuntu for much of the hype around it, its more to do with the nature of the media and of the internet in this day and age than anything else. Canonical itself does very little marketing that I have been aware of.

Having said that, All companies hype their products, Apple and Microsoft more than anyone else. They claim that they produce little boxes of joy that never fail and make every act as easy as falling off a log, that is all utter bull**** too. All computers have faults, they all are immensely frustrating when they won't work correctly, and all have difficulty installing new hardware sometimes. Nobody tells the truth in their marketing its basically a synonym for lies.

Now, the unrealistic expectation issue... This arises because the vast majority of people have never done 2 things:

1) Use an OS other than windows.
2) Install an OS.

A lot of people think that the windows way is the way computers work, and when it doesn't work that way on Ubuntu assume that is a fault, they then complain. Often the complaining starts without a search being done on the forums, or the included help files ever being opened. A lot of problems are simply people not trying to learn how Ubuntu works...these types of people would be just as lost on a mac, because it doesn't have a windows key. You have to accept that a new OS means you will have a lot to learn, thats just the way it is, there are no ways around it. You may think Windows is user friendly, but really you are just used to it, nothing more, nothing less.

Far more relevantly, most people go to a shop and buy a pc...they buy it with an installed OS, that has all the relevant drivers loaded and then they use it. Unsurprisingly this is relatively painless. Installing ANY OS from scratch is not painless. Things need tweaking, bios settings changing, device drivers locating and installing, software testing. It is not a job that is easy or simple, ever. That Ubuntu makes it so easy is actually to its credit, its easier than XP by miles. People behave as if they are just installing another web browser, when its more akin to replacing the engine in your car.

Finally there is the issue of people behaving as if the forum is tech support.. it isn't. It is the equivalent of asking a friend of a friend (who you've met once) for a hand. Far too many people behave as if they are owed a response, because they are used to paid for support desks where frankly they are. These people should be calmed down, have the nature of the linux community explained and then helped if they change their attitude. If they don't they should be pointed to canonicals support agreements and ignored. People however are emotional beings and get angry, and frustrated, hence the zealotry you perceive.

Both sides are wrong here, and both contribute to the problem in their own way, its not one that will go away because this isn't a business where all the employees have a code of conduct not to tell some jumped up user to shove it. As a general rule I always try to be polite to new users and do my best to help them whilst considering there perspective, but I do understand why people get frustrated and why the flame wars are so frequent.

[Samhain13]

Yes I had ulterior motives. The ultimate ulterior motive was to get Ubuntu fanboys to acknowledge that there is a possibility that they could have become religious zealots. I will admit to that. The title should fill you in enough. As for me acting naive about Ubuntu members responding a certain, you are ultimately wrong. As several others have pointed out already (including yourself), behavior across these forums doesn't seem to fit the picture that I painted...

So after several pages of civil exchanges and proving to yourself that this community, although infested by a few overzealous people (or people who occasionally become overzealous), is not the fanboy hellhole that you've expected; would it be fair to assume that any more insistence on the community's admitting to faults and weaknesses is flamebait?


But a balanced view of your own faults and weaknesses has its merits as well. That's all I'm trying to do for some people. Restore a sense of balance. Why? Because it'd help Ubuntu reputation and community as a whole I believe.

If you really want to contribute to the balance of opinions about Ubuntu, don't post your views only here. Make a website (a blog or whatever) and put your experiences there too. Why outside this forum? Because most people in this forum already have a balanced view: we know and acknowledge both the strengths and the weaknesses of Ubuntu. And if I may say so, that is why this community is great.

The Ubuntu hype that you mention is not created by the company that makes/sponsors the people who make the *buntus. The hype was created and is fueled by the people who have tried the OS, are extremely satisfied with their experience, and post their experiences in their sites or tell their friends directly. Therefore, it is wrong to expect the company to curb the hype that it did not create; it is right for you (as an individual or as a community member) to make your negative opinions known to others, and to contribute to the balance of opinions; but, it is wrong for you expect others to share your own negative opinions and to say those opinions through the same devices.

If you're a dissatisfied user, blog about it so that other would-be users who find those easy-to-find positive testimonials might also find a negative testimonial out there. And that's really all that you can do.

[karellen]

to answer the question posed by the OP, no. I'm not religious and fanatical about anything. why would I waste my energy, thoughts and patience for something like a computer's OS? I hate zealotry and narrow-mindness

[airjaw]

Latest article by Mark Shuttlesworth mentioned that he's hiring UI developers and designers. Seems that he recognizes the need for a smoother user experience.. great to see that Ubuntu is headed in this direction. I have more reason now to stick with ubuntu

[loell]

Latest article by Mark Shuttlesworth mentioned that he's hiring UI developers and designers. Seems that he recognizes the need for a smoother user experience.. great to see that Ubuntu is headed in this direction. I have more reason now to stick with ubuntu

don't expect much , they can/will redesign everything ubuntu UI specific but not the vast free software. its a long process of persuasion.