Anyone down with OLPC?

[SectionThree]

OLPC is an acronym for "One Laptop Per Child." This project was launched by the MIT Media Lab and here's how it works:

Laptop computers with Linux-based operating systems will be distributed to school-children for educational purposes, especially throughout the third world, and these laptops will be equipped with a hand-crank battery recharging device so that children in areas of the world without electricity can charge up their laptops and get online (via satellite?) and learn.

The website is here:
http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

I wonder if those nice folks have considered Edubuntu for the proposed OS, I mean, it seems appropriate. Shall we then descend upon them like hawks to convince them? Yeah, I think so...

[Brunellus]

at the moment, they're not even at the prototype stage. Fascinating stuff for the blue-sky types, but people need help now, not promises tomorrow.

Best bang-for-the-buck would be textbooks--yes, the sort made from dead trees--with teachers to go with them. Clean drinking water and decent sanitation would be nice, too.

[benplaut]

there was a story on /. that Setve Jobs offered free copies of OSX for every laptop, and they refused...

bad rep!

[Brunellus]

OSX would be too hardware-hungry for the sort of project they're envisioning.

[az]

Benjamin Mako Hill used to be a Canonical employee and is still an Ubuntu Developer as well as a member of theCommunity Council "returned to academia" to work on that project.

[bulldogzerofive]

They do have prototypes... at least that is what the article on cnn.com says (with pictures).

Still, this is never going to work. Brunellus is right, the situation of the worst off children in the world (which is most of them) requires medical care, sanitation, school buildings, textbooks, teachers... maybe some healthy food... and these are things that you can buy in huge quantities at $100 a head, the projected cost of these things.

Of course, real needs are not as trendy as internet connection, so probably some holywood entertainers (who for some gadawful reason we have chosen to worship in our society- wtf!?! a hundred years ago people threw rotten food at entertainers for fun and now they are the ruling class? what do they know anyway?) will write a fund-raising song and this program will get a half-hearted execution until it drops off the "trendy-dar" and is quietly forgotten, like the 90,000 people freezing to death in northern pakistan right now...

maybe i am being to cynical and cold-hearted and it will work great. I hope it does anyway, but i will keep giving my charity bucks to the Red Cross.

[Brunellus]

they have mock-ups, not real prototypes. The most crucial part of the whole enterprise--the hand-crank power supply--is not implemented. And they intend to use satellites for internet connectivity, which, to my knowledge, is not implemented either, or, if implemented, not well thought-out. Who's going to pay for all that satellite uplink time? Or is that down to a one-time price of US$100 per pupil, as well?

It's a fine idea, but I don't think it is or should be a priority. The biggest bang for your development-assistance buck is actually a well-thought-out textbook production and distribution program. That goes double if the books are in whatever language the children acquire first: pupils read faster, and learn to transition into "majority" languages more easily, if they first become literate in their own, indigenous languages.

Clean water and sanitation are relatively cheap, and have an amazing impact on the quality of life for people everywhere. Doubt it? Let me give you a hypothetical: Which would you rather be without for a month--your laptop or a flushing toilet?

No-brainer.

[az]

Er, this is a tool for education. You cannot compare it to your webcam-digital camera-blog-iRiver kind of computer.

[bulldogzerofive]

Being without a flushing toilet is not that bad; more a question of what you are accustomed to. In afghanistan, for example, the ISAF brought in a bunch of western style toilets and installed them in various places around the county, only to discover that the locals considered it dirty to sit on them; they would squat over them, which of course caused some messes, and the result was that most people continued with the open pit method. You really do need clean water and food, though.

[Brunellus]

Being without a flushing toilet is not that bad; more a question of what you are accustomed to. In afghanistan, for example, the ISAF brought in a bunch of western style toilets and installed them in various places around the county, only to discover that the locals considered it dirty to sit on them; they would squat over them, which of course caused some messes, and the result was that most people continued with the open pit method. You really do need clean water and food, though.
Sanitation is part and parcel of clean water. Why are there no cholera epidemics in the first world? Because proper sanitation prevents water-borne illness.

It is possible to engineer good sanitation that also accounts for local preferences.

The maddening thing is that this is relatively simple, unlike building $100 laptops. The underlying technology for this has been with us since the early Bronze Age.

[bulldogzerofive]

Agree, but flushing toillets are not a prerequisite part of a good sanitation structure, just one solution of many.

This is of, course, off topic, since i think we agree on the basic argument: The money could be better spent elsewhere.

[az]

This is of, course, off topic, since i think we agree on the basic argument: The money could be better spent elsewhere.
No, we don't. Education may not be at the very beginning of the survival list, but it is pretty low down on the ladder. This is not a toy on which they can watch Madonna do her latest pelvic thrusts but a tool for education that we are talking about.

[Brunellus]

there are cheaper and better tools for education here and now. I applaud the effort in general, but I'm more in favor of actually getting textbooks to students *now*.

[az]

As I understand it The Media Labsa are trying to put together the infrastructure to be able to make these things at the afformentioned cost. MIT would not foot the bill to send millions of laptops out into the world.

The way it would go is this:

1. The MIT Media labs team work on the practical implementations of the technology in a way that manufactureres are lined up and ready to take orders. All the team does is set the spec and get people to provide the service of manufacturing them.
2. They make it know that the $100 laptop is a reality.
3. A country puts in an orger to a million or more of them.
4. The media labs people coordinate the details so that the laptops are shipped and get up and running.


So, right now, no money is being wasted on this. The countries that would benefit from it are not waiting for some return on their investment - it is only in the theoretical stages now. They will continue to pay for their textbooks until they decide they want to benefit from this technology.

[bulldogzerofive]

No, we don't. Education may not be at the very beginning of the survival list, but it is pretty low down on the ladder. This is not a toy on which they can watch Madonna do her latest pelvic thrusts but a tool for education that we are talking about.

I should have been more specific. I was talking to brunellus when i said we agree... s/he and i do agree on that point, i think.

Where i think you and i disagree is on the usefulness of said tools. Everybody reading this understands what these laptops are for, and we understand that it is not for watching "Madonna do her latest pelvic thrusts." We are not naive and some of us have even done aid work in poor countries and understand what life is like there. Education is VITAL to changing the poverty felt by many parts of the world, i agree with you. After all, it is better to teach a man (or woman) to fish so he can fish his whole life than to give him (or her) fish for a day. However, in surprisingly large swaths of the earth, the kind of education that a computer brings is just not practical or useful. What good is a computer going to do in an area where the literacy rate is such that most people cannot read the screen (which is most of the world)? What good is a science tool going to be in a place where there are no teachers who understand biology?

What is missing is more basic educational tools: books and teachers. Without these nothing will improve.

The target areas for these computers corresponds very significantly with those swaths of the earth where those basic educational tools are already competing with very tight resources.

Brazil, for example, has expressed interest in these computers. Currently, Brazil has a functional literacy rate of about 40%. That is about the same percentage of children who finish the fifth grade. I would argue that this is the minimum level of pre-existing education one needs to take advantage of these computers. So, that's great! 40% of kids can take advantage of this program who would not have been able to right? Not really. While a few kids can take advantage of this, the problem in Brazillian schools is non-attendance. By the age of ten, most poor children go to work to help support their families. The children who continue education are from the upper and middle classes, usually the same kids who have access to technology anyway. Just to get an idea of the amount of money $100 per child is in brazil, some 60% of the employed workforce earns less than $300 a year. Less than 3.2% of the workforce earns more than $2,000 a year. Now, let's take into concideration what this would cost as a whole. 25 million children are enrolled in public elementary-level schools. Children enrolled in public schools are generally the poor; middle and upper class kids go to private schools. So, the public school population pretty much corresponds with our target audience for these computers. That would come out to $2.5 billion. That is .5% of the GDP. Higher education is in the same boat. Most people who start University quit because they cannot afford the tuition. Probably spending this money on scholarships would be more useful than a laptop.

Let's go to a more extreme example. In Afghanistan, before the civil war started in 1978, literacy was 11%, with a strong disparity between males and females. In this country, westerners are warned not to wear certain more stylish brands of sunglasses because many inhabitants believe that these are X-ray glasses that enable the wearer to look at females through their clothes. And this is in Kabul. NGOs are desperately trying to fund schools through charities but they simply have no money. $100 per child for books and teachers would answer every NGO's prayers.

The bottom line is that for most of the world these things are wildly expensive and do not help the poor. Books and teachers help the poor, as unglamourous as they may be. True, no money is being wasted on this yet... but i think that it will be. It is just going to be another major international scam that allows corrupt bureaucrats to funnel money away from the people who need it.




All my statistics are from the library of congress, http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html

Edit: Corrected URL

[23meg]

I will argue that having a laptop that lets them connect to the net is a greater priority for children in underdeveloped countries than textbooks.

A textbook, no matter how well written, is a textbook. It teaches the world to the kids as filtered through the fixed ideology and world view of whoever writes it. And I don't have to elaborate on how corrupt most governments (who are naturally in charge of preparing textbooks) in many underdeveloped countries can be. A laptop with net connectivity, however, can help kids gain multiple viewpoints on matters, far beyond a scope textbooks can provide.

Much depends on the level of overall education in which the laptops would actually go into function though.

[nrwilk]

OSX would be too hardware-hungry for the sort of project they're envisioning.

They refused, giving the reason as "it's not open-source."

[Brunellus]

you must first be able to read before you are able to join the republic of letters. This is as true today as when the media were clay tablets.

The first task is primary education--literacy in the vernacular, and basic numeracy. Everything else follows from that.

To the extent that the OLPC project can assist primary education eventually, I welcome it. But I note with interest that even in very poor districts in advanced industrial economies, levels of literacy are depressingly low. This is even with an embarassment of riches in terms of information resources as compared with the developing world.

[23meg]

That's basically why I'm saying the education level of those who get their hands on these laptops matters. Coupled with the required basic education, they can make more of a difference than the best possible textbook that will follow that education. Otherwise they'd end up as expensive toys.

[Malphas]

I fail to see why textbooks are superior or more cost-effective than the proposed laptops. And yes, there are other - more important - priorities such as clean drinking water, vaccines, etc. but I doubt there's much MIT could be doing that would help with regard to those issues. Besides, there are places where those problems are already being worked on and are no longer such a pressing concern - and you don't just ignore education in the mean time.

[poptones]

Being functionally illiterate does not mean you cannot read at all - it means you do not read at a level which would likely allow you to succeed in a society. The cure to such illiteracy is to read and to write. Computers give their owners oppportunity to practice like no other.

The poorest of the poor (who may also live migrant lifstyles) do not have the luxury of egalitarian lifestyles. It takes effort just to own things, because things have to be cared for and transported. Giving a child a lightweight computer is like giving that child an entire library. Buying books for people who cannot go to school and who move from season to season is just stupid - you might as well send them electric air conditioners.

[Brunellus]

I fail to see why textbooks are superior or more cost-effective than the proposed laptops. And yes, there are other - more important - priorities such as clean drinking water, vaccines, etc. but I doubt there's much MIT could be doing that would help with regard to those issues. Besides, there are places where those problems are already being worked on and are no longer such a pressing concern - and you don't just ignore education in the mean time.
because they are deployable now, with far less investment in infrastructure.

The OLPC is still some distance away--the various parts of the contemplated infrastructure must be built, bought, established, tested, and so forth.

[Brunellus]

Being functionally illiterate does not mean you cannot read at all - it means you do not read at a level which would likely allow you to succeed in a society. The cure to such illiteracy is to read and to write. Computers give their owners oppportunity to practice like no other.

The poorest of the poor (who may also live migrant lifstyles) do not have the luxury of egalitarian lifestyles. It takes effort just to own things, because things have to be cared for and transported. Giving a child a lightweight computer is like giving that child an entire library. Buying books for people who cannot go to school and who move from season to season is just stupid - you might as well send them electric air conditioners.
If you're working long hours for short wages, you haven't much time to read, whether it's a computer or not.

Literacy and universal primary education are possible with surprisingly few resources and even less technology.

[poptones]

If you're working long hours for short wages...

And what use is that book to a child who has no time to read it?

If a person is working in a factory then they are not living a rural life. Children in cities have other opportunities even if they are being unfairly exploited as laborers.

You seem to think that doing nothing is better than doing something that doesn't fix things NOW. It doesn't work like that - if we dumped ten thousand dollars per person into such a place when the money ran out most would still be screwed.

Even if you do not directly improve the life of the poorest, when you improve the lives of others who live with them you improve the life of everyone. The US would not have the things it has today if everyone were too busy gathering food to worry about such frivolities as public libraries and movie theaters. These countries have no middle class - there is no one to help "the poor" because "the poor" is damn near everyone. When you improve the lives of the people near the bottom, you improve the lives of those below them as well.

[Brunellus]

You seem to think that doing nothing is better than doing something that doesn't fix things NOW. It doesn't work like that - if we dumped ten thousand dollars per person into such a place when the money ran out most would still be screwed.

That is not what I have been saying.

I am not against the OLPC project in principle; I am only pointing out that there are concrete steps, proven to work, that can be taken here and now which materially improve the lives of the intended targets of the OLPC.

I am also suggesting that the project is not the salvation that some people seem to think it will be.

[az]

I am only pointing out that there are concrete steps, proven to work, that can be taken here and now which materially improve the lives of the intended targets of the OLPC.

I am also suggesting that the project is not the salvation that some people seem to think it will be.

But nobody is suggesting that the anyone other than the media lab at MIT invest in this. No one wants books to be taken away from children today so that this can be up and running in five years. Nobody is losing anything.

This is an academic excercise which may provide an infrastructure to offer these devices in some the future.

[bulldogzerofive]

Being functionally illiterate does not mean you cannot read at all - it means you do not read at a level which would likely allow you to succeed in a society. The cure to such illiteracy is to read and to write. Computers give their owners opportunity to practice like no other.

Actually, in the numbers i was looking at functional literacy is defined as the ability to read a newspaper. Newspapers are generally written at a fifth grade reading level by US and EU educational standards. I would argue that if you cannot read a newspaper, you can't use a computer, which applies to 60% of Brazil's population. Full illiteracy in Brazil is 19%, but the definition for fully illiterate is the inability to sign your name, which i think is far too low a threshold to be useful in the debate over these computers.


And what use is that book to a child who has no time to read it?

That is exactly the point! No more good than a computer does but it is a hell of a lot cheaper! The cost of deploying one of these computers if funneled to other things will allow sufficient aid to be delivered to allow poor children to go to good, old fashioned school. Nobody here is advocating doing nothing to help the poor of the world; but the aid has to be realistic.

As for the world's poor in rural situations: In rural populations the problems of illiteracy are significantly more pronounced that in urban ones. The reason? Even fewer communal resources for teachers. Again, teachers (who in much of the world can be paid for four months with the cost of a single one of these laptops) are the answer.


But nobody is suggesting that the anyone other than the media lab at MIT invest in this. No one wants books to be taken away from children today so that this can be up and running in five years. Nobody is losing anything.

This is an academic exercise which may provide an infrastructure to offer these devices in some the future.

Yes, this an academic exercise. We are debating the value of this exercise, for whatever our opinions are worth (which is probably very little). However, academic exercises have a funny way of becoming reality if they find backers. That is i think it is important to point out what is going to happen if this program does become a reality.

Real aid consists of clean food and water, shelter, teachers and books. Communities with these tools usually find solutions to more complicated problems in the absence of other pressures (like corrupt governments).


On another note:
I am writing this on a computer made primarily by underpaid labor in various "third world" countries while sitting in a building probably built by underpaid migrant workers from Northern Africa or Asia Minor. The Volkswagen I drove to work this morning was made in argentina, most likely by underpaid labor. The raw metals for these items were probably extracted from a similar set of countries using techniques that leave farm lands poisoned and give the workers cancer. The computer is powered, the building heated, and the car propelled using fuels extracted from Eastern Europe or the middle east in a similar fashion to the extraction of the construction materials. I would be willing to bet that everybody else following this thread is fairly similar to me. Many blame corrupt governments and international business for these horrors. Corrupt governments are one issue, but international corporations only do this because we consumers are not willing to pay the price for well-paid labor (would you buy an $8,000 desktop?). Indeed, it is not international corporations that extract these resources and cause this suffering, it is you and I. Yet we are debating what kind of aid would be best to those we have exploited... does this strike anyone else as ironic?

[Malphas]

Actually, in the numbers i was looking at functional literacy is defined as the ability to read a newspaper. Newspapers are generally written at a fifth grade reading level by US and EU educational standards. I would argue that if you cannot read a newspaper, you can't use a computer, which applies to 60% of Brazil's population. Full illiteracy in Brazil is 19%, but the definition for fully illiterate is the inability to sign your name, which i think is far too low a threshold to be useful in the debate over these computers.
Nice logic, you could use the exact same argument to say that if someone isn't literate then there's no point giving them a book because they wouldn't know how to read it, and there's no point giving them a pencil because they wouldn't know how to write or wouldn't know how to use correct grammar. If you're teaching someone how to drive a car, you get them to sit in a car; if you're teaching someone to use a computer, you get them sitting at a computer. Is it just me or is this completely obvious?



That is exactly the point! No more good than a computer does but it is a hell of a lot cheaper! The cost of deploying one of these computers if funneled to other things will allow sufficient aid to be delivered to allow poor children to go to good, old fashioned school. Nobody here is advocating doing nothing to help the poor of the world; but the aid has to be realistic.
Do you know how much a textbook even costs? One if this scheme's main "selling points" is that it's much cheaper to supply each child with an affordable computer than it is to provide them with a set of textbooks. And that's not even taking into consideration other items, such as stationary.

[tmeier]

Here is a link to an article about laptops that are going to be produced for a program called One Laptop per Child (OLPC). Check it out

http://laptop.media.mit.edu/2005-1213-olpc.html

[earobinson]

:)

[sapo]

Its been ages since i first read about "$100 computers" but i never saw those things being REALLY produced.

[byen]

Its been ages since i first read about "$100 computers" but i never saw those things being REALLY produced.
I second that notion. I would really be suprised to see that. but if they do.. got to get me one of those babies....;-P

[briancurtin]

i think this was pretty much universally known for the last few months that it would be linux based

[xequence]

Wouldent it be funny if microsoft tried to get them to use windows on them?

Since windows is 100$. Id laugh.

[Derek Djons]

It's a very good step. A few months ago I saw some footage on TV about it. Koffee Annan was really proud about the 3rd party development team. For $100 you also get the real 'my first Sony' design. Though it looks like a toy it's for sure going to be useful in certain parts of the world.

It's also good news for Linux. It is certain that the choice for Linux was not only made because of the costs but also because it's the most suitable OS for this project. Fast enought, lightweight, easy to use and in numerous languages available. What do you want more?!

[Lovechild]

Prototypes have been developed for this and showcased - the vendor that is working with MIT on the project is none other than the fablous RedHat. Talk in the GNOME realm has been steaming hot since Jeff Waugh' 10x10 speech at GUADEC.. Imagine getting GNOME on a 100 million PCs (I believe a 100 million is targetted for the project in stages).

They have some really talented people working for them, Getty and Mako just to mention 2. I'm really looking forward to seeing the feedback following deployment in the field, especially since deploying that many computers in those markets is bound to touch my favorite topic - translation and i18n safety.

[Rackerz]

Too bad these laptops wont be put on sale ...

[carlosqueso]

I like the hand crank for when there's no power....if my cable modem and lappy had those, I'd stop paying my power bills ;-)

[newbie2]

According to the Times, Microsoft Chairman and cofounder Bill Gates is "privately bitter" about Negroponte's decision to use Red Hat for the laptop. (Maybe he's not such a good guy after all.)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060130-6078.html
:rolleyes:

[earobinson]

haha :)

[Steve S.]

First of all: after coming from Windows, then to Gentoo (nothing wrong with it; very stable ;-)) I am loving Ubuntu and how user friendly it is.


Anyway, I work on the campus of AMD (Advanced Micro-Devices) and they are one of the primary partners in this project http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

Since I haven't asked any in the Linux comunity this yet, I thought I would ask the Ubuntu crew: what does everyone think of this idea? Do you think it (and ideas like it) will help out in the de-monopolization (or similar term) of Micro-soft and Windows? Could Ubuntu fit into something like this in the future (since the idea is out there now)?

Just curious to hear the Ubuntu perspective.

[fuscia]

i like the intent behind it. i just have my doubts about its success. i hope i'm wrong.

[kennethb]

This sounds very interesting and may be someting the Edubuntu group may want to participate in. I've been using Ubuntu Breezy on a 6 year old laptop (some kind of AMD chip with 512MB of memmory). The install was easy, and it isn't too bloated on my 20GB hard disk.

I'd like to see this project try to use recycled laptops - just to reduce the amount of IT trash in our earth's landfills.

[Nrvnqsr]

its a nice idea, but that $100 dollars would of been used for something important like medicine for the poor IMO

[Gadren]

I am fully in support with the idea... here's a response on Slashdot about the main opposition to the plan:


You're responding to a post about a:

(*) Product shipped to a developing market

The location is:

(*) Other __ Not Specified_

You're objecting to it on the basis that:

(*) Poverty hasn't been eliminated in that country yet

Your argument is bogus because:

(*) This will not adversely affect any efforts to alleviate poverty
(*) This will help to alleviate poverty

So many people think that the places that these laptops are being sent to are jungle grass-roof villages in Africa with no food, water, or medicine. It's a form of cultural chauvanism to think that -- the purpose of these laptops is to go to children in developing countries that already have some form of basic necessities, so that education can help children break the endless cycle of poverty and help raise society to a higher level.

[Steve S.]

I am fully in support with the idea... here's a response on Slashdot about the main opposition to the plan:



So many people think that the places that these laptops are being sent to are jungle grass-roof villages in Africa with no food, water, or medicine. It's a form of cultural chauvanism to think that -- the purpose of these laptops is to go to children in developing countries that already have some form of basic necessities, so that education can help children break the endless cycle of poverty and help raise society to a higher level.

Precisely.

[poofyhairguy]

I think its a great idea if it worked and it might help decrease the digital divide.

Ubuntu at some point might be considered for such a project, but for now I hope it just increases the use of Linux and open source software.

Maybe a school or a user will order and use Ubuntu for another computer they have after seeing Linux on one of these laptops....

[Master Shake]

I'm torn as to whether I think this is a good idea or not.

IMHO, they should sell these things for $200 - $300 in the "west" or industrialized nations, to help subsidze them in developing nations.

Is a governmental organization behind this, or private interests (I have to admit my bias against govenment here.)

[fuscia]

its a nice idea, but that $100 dollars would of been used for something important like medicine for the poor IMO

it might be more along the lines of 'teach them how to fish...'

[Leo_01]

I love those 100 bucks laptop!
those kids won't even have to worry getting viruses or any spyware coz it is linux!
;)
i kind of like the handcrank too but the overall design seems kiddy...

[mohapi]

I've been hearing about that project on the BBC and I have mixed feelings about it.

I did two stints in the Peace Corps, most recently coming back from South Africa a year ago. The schools where I worked either had computers given to them by the government, or saved their money for a year or so to buy a second-hand one.

Technology can do a lot to help out, for what I've seen, but it has to be nearly indestructible -- or easily fixed -- to be practical. In brief, somebody at village level better know how to fix those things, or they'll just be used for squashing spiders.

Anyway, that's just my immediate reaction.

[Vlammetje]

First of all: after coming from Windows, then to Gentoo (nothing wrong with it; very stable ;-)) I am loving Ubuntu and how user friendly it is.


Anyway, I work on the campus of AMD (Advanced Micro-Devices) and they are one of the primary partners in this project http://laptop.media.mit.edu/

Since I haven't asked any in the Linux comunity this yet, I thought I would ask the Ubuntu crew: what does everyone think of this idea? Do you think it (and ideas like it) will help out in the de-monopolization (or similar term) of Micro-soft and Windows? Could Ubuntu fit into something like this in the future (since the idea is out there now)?

Just curious to hear the Ubuntu perspective.

Well.... Although I applaud the initiative to teach children in any country with all my might, there are a few practical issues that worry me in this case. As I understand it, the idea is to hand out laptops to educate the children. Who's gonnan do the ducation? One does not 'learn laptop use' all by oneself imho. What happens if (or should I say 'when') the laptop breaks? Are spare parts easily available? And enough know-how to fix 'em again?

What do we teach children (via computing or via internet, which was mentioned in the news as being the main use of these laptops :confused: ) exactly that will help them grow and develop in their current living environment?

As for M$ dominance or not.... personally I believe that no big and media-covered PC event anywhere in the world will take place at present without M$ getting some piece of the action. This may very well change in the future, and Ubuntu might be a part of that. Hopefully.

[welsh_spud]

I'm really looking forward to the release of these $100 laptops. The laptop I have now is a dell Inspiron that sounds like a jet when you turn it on because of the Pentium 4 CPU and breaks my back every day when I take it to school because it weighs a ton.

These new laptops sound like a breath of fresh air. Really good battery life, compact size, WiFi, runs linux out of the box AND no moving parts, so they will probably never break!

The uses for these laptops in less developed countries are countless. Wikipedia anyone? These laptops can be used as electronic books basically, so you can have all the texts of a more developed countries school, in a laptop the size of a real book.

[Vlammetje]

Still.... somebody needs to tell you how to get to wiki and so on and so forth ;)

And I do not believe the laptops are meant to be made available to users in 'developped' countries at all tbh.

[Steve S.]

I'm torn as to whether I think this is a good idea or not.

IMHO, they should sell these things for $200 - $300 in the "west" or industrialized nations, to help subsidze them in developing nations.

Is a governmental organization behind this, or private interests (I have to admit my bias against govenment here.)

Private. Five companies, including AMD and RedHat, if I remember correctly.

[Steve S.]

Still.... somebody needs to tell you how to get to wiki and so on and so forth ;)

And I do not believe the laptops are meant to be made available to users in 'developped' countries at all tbh.

yeah, they aren't meant for that, but they probably will be available in the US eventually. One of my sources mentioned Radio Shack as picking them up.

[Master Shake]

Private. Five companies, including AMD and RedHat, if I remember correctly.

Sign me up for two or three then!

[senning]

yeah, they aren't meant for that, but they probably will be available in the US eventually. One of my sources mentioned Radio Shack as picking them up.
I've heard conflicting reports about that. I really, really hope they will be available, though maybe, uhm, less lime green. Brown-Gold-Orange-Red anyone? It would be awesome to spend, say, 300$ and know part of that is a subsidy.

I think that this project is an excellent idea, and that it will help the children it's meant to help. I worry a bit, with the increasing commercialization of the internet, that it might drive consumerism and then dissatisfaction with their local community amongst these children/teens. Still, the more voices are on the internet, the better. If they express themselves, the voices of these people will help us all appreciate their views better.

If we're worried about people needing to learn how to use these computers, maybe we should work with the wikipedia communities in each of the target countries to write some clear tutorials. Might even help the GNOME Documentation team...

[ThirdWorld]

The one laptop per child project have a goal to provide millions of laptops for children in developing countries. They will have a 500mhz AMD procesor, open source applications like openoffice and will run linux as its OS. The computers will be purchased directly from governments, and they will save money since such goverments would not have to publish school books anymore, everything will be digitized and loaded into the laptops. This will means HUGE savings on education in 3rd world and rich nations (like Europe). This means, that kids around the world will be conected, and 3rd world education systems will not be vulnerable to untrained teachers to transfer information to the children.
Its estimated that by the year 2010 these laptops will be priced at $50 per unit and at least 1 billion people worldwide will run LINUX!

Microsoft's founder Bill Gates have been very critical of the project, he said that the OLPC computers are underpower and old piece of hardware. Sudenly, Intel have developed a $400 laptop prototype that runs Windows XP and its targeted for education in developing countries and USA. (what a coincidence dont you think?) (note: it can run linux, but its designed for windows XP)

What do you think is a better option for kids around the world both poor and rich? The 500 mhz Linux OLPC or the more "powerful" wintel Eduwise?
Do you think that kids in USA and Europe should use the same OLPC hardware or they should get other stuff? a more expensive hardware like wintel Eduwise?

http://news.digitaltrends.com/images/stories/2006/5//ew1.jpg

Wintel Eduwise


http://wiki.laptop.org/images/c/cd/Blue-pivot.jpg

AMD Linux OLPC


Edit: Im not making fun of Windows + Intel, im just calling it Wintel because it will be release with the windows XP OS. I dont know how to call a preload Linux + AMD computer.

[IYY]

I think it depends on the country. For lower-middle class American and European schools, the Wintel box might be the right thing. For countries like Brazil, I'd rather see 4 million kids with $100 computers than 1 million kids with $400 computers.

A $400 laptop is really nothing new. You can get a used Pentium 3 or even 4 laptop for such a price, and it'll run XP just fine. Many of my friends did that for university.

[htinn]

Desktops are the way to go in schools. Recycle all your old PII/PIII boxes.

[Virogenesis]

that wintel book is crap $400 laptops already exist besides the chinese have a laptop thats 700mhz and $100 so that wins pretty much.

[Stormy Eyes]

What do you think is a better option for kids around the world both poor and rich? The 500 mhz Linux OLPC or the more "powerful" wintel Eduwise?
Do you think that kids in USA and Europe should use the same OLPC hardware or they should get other stuff? a more expensive hardware like wintel Eduwise?

As far as I'm concerned, any government official that chooses the Eduwise over the OLPC should be tarred and feathered for wasting the tax monies paid by the citizens he is supposed to serve.

[3rdalbum]

You can already get US$400 laptops running Windows XP. How is the introduction of another one going to help anyone?

So what if the OLPC one is only 500MHz? These people need computers to serve their basic needs, not computers to do 3D rendering and video compression.

[ThirdWorld]

So do you guys think that a 500Mhz linux laptop is a good option for education? Then why they are targeted for developing countries? why not for rich nations like USA, Canada, Europe etc? Whats going on? I dont understand why children in developed countries cant use them or why those governments are not interested in the OCPL project. Is some kind of national prestige not allow their children to use what the poor children will use? what do you think?

I think it deserves some healthy discussion

[Gadren]

From what I understood, the reason why OLPC wasn't being brought to developed countries was because the project wants to get established and get the laptops to the ones who need them the most first. OLPC hasn't said that they will be closed off to developing countries forever; in fact, it's all still up in the air, and there's some discussion about releasing a consmer version in developed countries that will cost more (but the money will go to buying a laptop for another child in a developing country).

[Kvark]

Do you expect to get a meaningful answer to that poll when asking in a Linux related forum and on top of that while asking the question you argue for the Linux alternative to persuade people to pick the answer you want? - Everyone will just agree with your arguments and say that their common favorite OS is the best choice.

If you want a meaningful poll then look for an OS independant Education oriented forum and ask there. And ask in a neutral way to give it a fair start. Then state your oppinions among with everyone else in the discussion that follows.

[ThirdWorld]

Do you expect to get a meaningful answer to that poll when asking in a Linux related forum and on top of that while asking the question you argue for the Linux alternative to persuade people to pick the answer you want? - Everyone will just agree with your arguments and say that their common favorite OS is the best choice.

If you want a meaningful poll then look for an OS independant Education oriented forum and ask there. And ask in a neutral way to give it a fair start. Then state your oppinions among with everyone else in the discussion that follows.



Im not persuading anyone about any OS, I'm just asking a question. If you read the post, you should notice that the wintel eduwise can run linux too. :rolleyes:

Note: I called it "Wintel Eduwise" because intel designed it for Windows XP, and they plan to release it with windows XP preloaded. As an option you can install Linux on it.

[Kvark]

Im not persuading anyone about any OS, I'm just asking a question. If you read the post, you should notice that the wintel eduwise can run linux too. :rolleyes:
You did say that AMD alternative will make 1billion kids use Linux and that Bill Gates sides with the Intel alternative which will make people on a Linux forum side with AMD (which most geeks already like better anyway). Besides, even if you remove the OS aspect you did still argue for the AMD alternative while asking the question.

If you are so unbaised then why do you keep calling Intel "Wintel"?

[ThirdWorld]

You did say that AMD alternative will make 1billion kids use Linux and that Bill Gates sides with the Intel alternative. Even if you remove the OS aspect you did still argue for the AMD alternative while asking the question.

If you are so unbaised then why do you keep calling Intel "Wintel"?


what part of Intel + preloaded Windows XP do you not understand? Do I have to explain it again?

[ThirdWorld]

Besides, even if you remove the OS aspect you did still argue for the AMD alternative while asking the question.

Im not an AMD advocate,

I just asked a simple question:

$130 500mhz AMD Linux laptop vs. $400 XXXmhz Intel + preloaded Windows XP laptop

the 1 billion linux users is the potencial of the OLPC project, its on their webpage dude...

[Kvark]

what part of Intel + preloaded Windows XP do you not understand? Do I have to explain it again?
No, I just meant that miss-spelling trademarks you don't like is not as funny, leet and cool as many Linux users seem to think. And my original point was only that this thread is doomed to be baised. Sorry about arguing with you, my first post said what I wanted to so I shouldn't have made that second post.

To get back on topic. I think the cheapest possible alternative is best as long as it can run office software. Recycled old computers have all the power you need for office and school work. Just take a 5+ year old P3, put in a leftover ram stick extra and then it's powerful enough even for teaching image editing with Gimp.

[ThirdWorld]

No, I just meant that miss-spelling trademarks you don't like is not as funny, leet and cool as many Linux users seem to think. And my original point was only that this thread is doomed to be baised.

im not misspelling anything:

Intel + Windows XP preloaded = Wintel. When you preload a computer with an OS its totally fair to call it that way. Its not a joke, nor I making fun of it, its the way it is. I will love to see Linux preloaded + Intel = Lintel computers in the near future, or Linux preloaded + AMD.

[ThirdWorld]

To get back on topic. I think the cheapest possible alternative is best as long as it can run office software. Recycled old computers have all the power you need for office and school work. Just take a 5+ year old P3, put in a leftover ram stick extra and then it's powerful enough even for teaching image editing with Gimp.

that is a good point Kvark, I read it in an article that it would not be a feasible solution since it will require millions of labour hours to recicle and reconfigure hardware. If I can find the article I promise to post it here for further discussion. at least the part that said that.

[ThirdWorld]

From the OLPC wiki:

http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/OLPC_FAQ#Why_not_a_desktop_computer.2C_or.E2.80.94 even_better.E2.80.94a_recycled_desktop_machine.3F

Why not a desktop computer, or—even better—a recycled desktop machine?

...regarding recycled machines: if we estimate 100 million available used desktops, and each one requires only one hour of human attention to refurbish, reload, and handle, that is forty-five thousand work years. Thus, while we definitely encourage the recycling of used computers, it is not the solution for One Laptop per Child.

[Stormy Eyes]

If you are so unbaised then why do you keep calling Intel "Wintel"?

To be fair, Wintel isn't a term that ThirdWorld pulled out of his ***. Since a sizable majority of consumer-grade PCs use Intel hardware and run Windows, the term Wintel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wintel) was coined to describe such machines.

[u.b.u.n.t.u]

ubuntu - humanity towards others

OLPC - one laptop per child

It just has to happen!

Official website:
http://www.laptop.org/

First working model screenshots:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pete/152018285/in/set-72057594143224765/

FAQ

Cost $100 (US I would presume, AU$200 approx)
CPU 500MHz
128MB DRAM
500MB Flash RAM
4 USB ports
wireless ethernet
dual display color / black and white

Operating system - it just has to be ubuntu!

Their first working model is shown running Fedora!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pete/151943889/in/set-72057594143224765/

An operating system that promotes "humanity towards others" just has to be available on the OLPC (one laptop per child) initiative.

What are your thoughts? Yes, no, not sure?

:D

[briancurtin]

Red Hat is backing this project from what I have read. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

[WildTangent]

Too late friend, hate to burst your bubble, but Redhat already has their hands on OLPC. They all run Redhat, or Fedora, I can't remember which.

-Wild

[benplaut]

Too late friend, hate to burst your bubble, but Redhat already has their hands on OLPC. They all run Redhat, or Fedora, I can't remember which.

-Wild

it doesn't matter, they're the same.

[Iandefor]

By this point, the project's gotten enough inertia that it'd be difficult to get them to switch distro's just because one is all about humanity to others. If Fedora works for them, it works for them.


it doesn't matter, they're the same. Umm... no. Fedora Core is based off of RHEL, but they're not the same. It isn't like the difference between OpenSUSE 10 and SLED.

[B0rsuk]

Come on. Do you think it's evil that they chose something else for the project ? It doesn't matter much its Redhat. All distributions can be set up to work like a charm. Redhat is compatible with Ubuntu for most part, if not with .rpm packages, you can still compile from source.

The point is, those laptops are going to have Linux on board. That's a big success.

[randomnumber]

I wonder if the laptops could be used to undo brainwashing that some dictatorship governments have done to their citizens.

I know the laptop will have a mesh network but the mesh network will still require at least one connection to the www. Will this requirement be a separate hardware?

If the the laptops were to be air dropped on a country could the citizens use them to organize change?( I mean no country specifically!)

If governments like China has gets to use the laptops will they sensor all content to the network?

Will these developing countries become more educated than our citizens in the US through the lack of MS products and the US citizens attitude of "It works so I am not interested in learning anything else"?

[argie]

I think they're more a tool to help poor children out of poverty by giving them access to a vast amount of information easily. Education is a really big problem in developing countries.

I don't see these laptops as regime change tools.

[MedivhX]

Total sucsess!!! Exept i shouldn't have Fedora... I would buy it (and take it always to school)

[ago]

what does everyone think of this idea?
I think this is one of the best things coming to computing, it is a great learning tool for several reasons, it will help discover new talents and will reduce the education gap. On top of that it will help a lot with de-monopolization:

1) Because thanks to the OLPC every government in developing countries is well aware of Linux, not only as a concept, but as a tangible product

2) Because of sheer numbers, there will be millions of new Linux users, in markets that are still vergin and first comers have a big advantage,

3) Because it proves that $100 machines are doable and "good enough", and there is little space for a $100 OS in a $100 machine... The chinese are listening...

4) Because it publicizes the benefits of an FOSS, ALSO as an educational tool.

5) Because it will shatter the myth that Linux is "difficult" once and for all, because kids are supposed to use the Linux laptops.

That said I also think that we will have had sub $100 PCs anyway, given recent price trends and some help from China.


Could Ubuntu fit into something like this in the future (since the idea is out there now)?
Yes it can. Ubuntu is based on Debian and therefore it is extremely customizable. And it can be shrank down quite a bit. DSL is also based on Debian... There are already quite a few off-springs targeting minimalist desktops. What we need is to marry edubuntu with such minimalist approaches and build a custom kernel. So I do not see any show stopper in creating a dedicated distro for the $100 laptop.

[ago]

It would be awesome to spend, say, 300$ and know part of that is a subsidy.

I strongly agree. There should be a more expensive commercial version whose profits will help subsidize the government laptops. And even if the commercial version revenues go in the pockets of the producers, it will still benefit developing countries via economies of scale.

The only disadvantage is that a commercial version will help creating a black market: in a lot of situations the father will get the laptop from their kids and sell it in order to pay rent/debt/food/alchool... The black market is the greatest danger for this project, and I am not sure how they can avoid that.

[gnomeuser]

I'm personally pleased they picked Red Hat as their systems partner. I doubt any other company has the experience to produce a secure custom OS like this. Remember this goes WAY beyond just putting Linux on a laptop, they are doing entirely new hardware, writing drivers, fixing up the entire system to not wake up so to save power, doing LinuxBIOS and much much more.

This is major system work, a task Ubuntu' meager team simply doesn't have the resources or experience to take on. Let alone support what is casually remarked as being 100 million units over the next few years (+4 million units have already been orders making it the single largest Linux deployment ever).

However being free software everyone is welcome to join the team, I know the guy doing the GTK theme is using and developing Ubuntu. Also remember every success the OLPC has means your desktop gets better, they are a driving force behind a lot of improvements in commonly used code like the kernel, X and GTK.

The team is coming up on their second test hardware setup so let's all wish them good luck. Also if you want to play with the software in it's pre beta stage it's available as a LiveCD, qemu image and in a chroot friendly format so get going with that testing.

[Steve S.]

I'm personally pleased they picked Red Hat as their systems partner. I doubt any other company has the experience to produce a secure custom OS like this. Remember this goes WAY beyond just putting Linux on a laptop, they are doing entirely new hardware, writing drivers, fixing up the entire system to not wake up so to save power, doing LinuxBIOS and much much more.

This is major system work, a task Ubuntu' meager team simply doesn't have the resources or experience to take on. Let alone support what is casually remarked as being 100 million units over the next few years (+4 million units have already been orders making it the single largest Linux deployment ever).

However being free software everyone is welcome to join the team, I know the guy doing the GTK theme is using and developing Ubuntu. Also remember every success the OLPC has means your desktop gets better, they are a driving force behind a lot of improvements in commonly used code like the kernel, X and GTK.

The team is coming up on their second test hardware setup so let's all wish them good luck. Also if you want to play with the software in it's pre beta stage it's available as a LiveCD, qemu image and in a chroot friendly format so get going with that testing.

gnomeuser: you got links on that livecd? Would be cool to check out.:)

[ago]

This is major system work, a task Ubuntu' meager team simply doesn't have the resources or experience to take on.


I agree, but most of that involves a custom kernel. We could always use their kernel and put apt/Ubuntu on top with a custom light desktop...

[Dual Cortex]

You brough a 9 month old thread back to life!

[EdThaSlayer]

The intentions of this project are really good, but these hungry starving kids don't really need this laptop, they need to get their next meal. Also doing this will create a black market where the kids sell the laptops they get to another person for lets say, $90, and use that money to buy food. I hope it works though, it can increase the amount of people who have acces to information, and this in turn can help increase education and probably lower school costs(Ebooks instead of written text books and using the computer to type and send data instead of written paper and pen and pencil). Design is a little kiddy, but its usability is excellent! Hope i didn't spread too many ideas here and there.

[daynah]

I've been hearing about that project on the BBC and I have mixed feelings about it.

I did two stints in the Peace Corps, most recently coming back from South Africa a year ago. The schools where I worked either had computers given to them by the government, or saved their money for a year or so to buy a second-hand one.

Technology can do a lot to help out, for what I've seen, but it has to be nearly indestructible -- or easily fixed -- to be practical. In brief, somebody at village level better know how to fix those things, or they'll just be used for squashing spiders.

Anyway, that's just my immediate reaction.

I agree. I'm very big on volunteering locally. Currently, I'm trying to figure out how to organize a ring where big organizations can donate broken computers, volunteers can scavenge the working parts and turn it into an Edubuntu computer (remember the recent school where something similar to that happened in England). To today's children, and this effect is magnified in the west, computer illiteracy in their adult lives will be as debilitating to them as current adults who are illiterate (with reading).

A $100 laptop could be used locally just as well as in Africa.

Also, why does every think about Africa? What about South America? And Asia?

[denad]

I think they're more a tool to help poor children out of poverty by giving them access to a vast amount of information easily. Education is a really big problem in developing countries.

I don't see these laptops as regime change tools.

Education is a regime change tool.

[EnergySamus]

I have one. It is very rugged. It can withstand Water and those occasional "whoops I dropped it!!!" The only con is the software! It is very basic. But the final word is that is is INNOVATIVE!

EnergySamus

[Mateo]

^^^ that's not a con. It's intended for under-educated children. It's supposed to be basic.

[EnergySamus]

I didn't mean to call it a con! It does have a terminal, and you can install opera.

EnergySamus