PDA

View Full Version : Is the Internet Infinite or finite?



Lord Xeb
August 25th, 2008, 04:33 AM
earlier I had a rather interesting intellectual discussion with a friend. Since there are serval million new pages a day on the net, why has it not been filled. Also, what is the true size of the net. The latter cannot never be achieve due to the fact that it is always forever expanding, but there can only be so much space that can be created and it is bound to end up being used. What do you think?

smartboyathome
August 25th, 2008, 04:39 AM
This is like asking is the Universe infinate or finite. We may never have the answer. ;)

Catalyst2Death
August 25th, 2008, 04:42 AM
There is always a finite amount of space because there is a finite number of servers and thus a finite amount of storage. The size of the internet is therefore finite because it is limited by storage. If I take a bit of raw material and machine it into a device which can store a series of 0's and 1's and I connect it to a network of these devices, then I expand the already finite system by a finite amount. It may be mind-bogglingly large, but it will still be finite. Its like blowing up a balloon. The balloon is always expanding, but there is also always a finite amount of air molecules in the balloon at any given time...

Lord Xeb
August 25th, 2008, 04:43 AM
That is what I though of.... Good logic.

NovaAesa
August 25th, 2008, 04:55 AM
Of course it's finite. This is because there are a finite number of servers which have finite storage. Even if they add a server (or lots of them, as they do) the number will still be finite.

Twitch6000
August 25th, 2008, 05:11 AM
Of course it's finite. This is because there are a finite number of servers which have finite storage. Even if they add a server (or lots of them, as they do) the number will still be finite.

Ahh,but doesn't that also make it infinite :p?Because just by adding one server it adds more space <.<.

RiceMonster
August 25th, 2008, 05:14 AM
Ahh,but doesn't that also make it infinite :p?Because just by adding one server it adds more space <.<.

But then you can take it even further, and say the material we need to make the servers is finite, so that would also make the Internet finite ;).

Dharmachakra
August 25th, 2008, 05:22 AM
I would say that the internet will always, in a sense, be finite. But in the future, the internet will be for all intents and purposes, infinite. At some point, maybe even starting now, storage will be so economical and tiny that the internet will be practically infinite.

woztron
August 25th, 2008, 05:31 AM
But then you can take it even further, and say the material we need to make the servers is finite, so that would also make the Internet finite ;).

That only works if the universe is finite. If it isn't, then there is an infinite amount of material to build more servers out of.

I agree that the net is finite, but if it keeps growing quicker than its filled, it could almost be considered infinite in that you can never find its limit (the mathematical definition of infintie).

Northsider
August 25th, 2008, 05:59 AM
If everything remains constant (ie no more servers are created, etc) then yes, the internet is finite...there is limited storage and limited bandwidth. However, like the universe, the internet expands...new servers are put up, etc.

klange
August 25th, 2008, 06:04 AM
Finite, even with v6, you can only have so many IPs. But it's virtually infinite in that it will keep expanding.

Redache
August 25th, 2008, 06:14 AM
Finite, even with v6, you can only have so many IPs. But it's virtually infinite in that it will keep expanding.

Unless Net Neutrality is killed and a Tier system is put in place thereby killing most websites.

So in the Apocalyptic Future the Internet is very much Finite, as defined as the ISP's.

In the Nice Free Future The Internet in Finite in terms of physical capacity but in terms of advancement and possibility of expansion it is infinite.

Warpnow
August 25th, 2008, 07:12 AM
The net is Finite.

Its potential for space is ifininite. Yes, you can only have so many IPs, but the amount of web content on a single IP, with corresponing hardware, is infinite.

|{urse
August 25th, 2008, 07:14 AM
tis the dawning of the infinet
:lolflag:

wdaniels
August 25th, 2008, 07:25 AM
There is always a finite amount of space because there is a finite number of servers and thus a finite amount of storage. The size of the internet is therefore finite because it is limited by storage. If I take a bit of raw material and machine it into a device which can store a series of 0's and 1's and I connect it to a network of these devices, then I expand the already finite system by a finite amount. It may be mind-bogglingly large, but it will still be finite. Its like blowing up a balloon. The balloon is always expanding, but there is also always a finite amount of air molecules in the balloon at any given time...

Yes, but you forget about the potential to dynamically generate content, so it is not limited by storage and is infinite (at least until you start to define the term more carefully perhaps).

lisati
August 25th, 2008, 07:30 AM
tis the dawning of the infinet
:lolflag:

Nice one, mr Huxtable.

Erdaron
August 25th, 2008, 08:00 AM
I suppose a more sciency argument is cap on information stored on the internet. A system can only represent another system of equal or lesser complexity. Since the internet (by which I mean all the machines connected to it) is composed of a finite number of nodes, it can only represent a finite amount of information.

However, I would also argue that it is practically or procedurally infinite. In calculus, one way you can prove that an infinite sum converges, is to show that another series, which converges slower still converges. (This means that is series A tends toward zero slower than series B, and it is known that series A is finite, then series B is also finite, since its member will become small even faster.) Here, it's kind of the opposite. If we had one known repository of knowledge that is growing faster than the entire internet, then we prove the internet is bound and finite.

To my knowledge, no such repository exists. Internet is bigger and grows faster than any other available system, therefore it may as well be infinite.

Another way of defining infinity is a number that's bigger than any number you pick. Since we do not have any other collection of information that is bigger than the internet, it is essentially infinite.

Oh yes, all those advanced calculus classes are finally paying off!

mellowd
August 25th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Finite, but that finite number is so big it seems infinite to us.


Also, as more and more ways are being discovered to but bytes on smaller spaces that finite number will just grow

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 09:22 AM
Your answer is really a no brainer.

It's finite.

It's impossible to claim the internet is infinite.

Sure in the future it might grow exponentially and will be epically big, it won't be no way near infinity.

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 09:24 AM
I suppose a more sciency argument is cap on information stored on the internet. A system can only represent another system of equal or lesser complexity. Since the internet (by which I mean all the machines connected to it) is composed of a finite number of nodes, it can only represent a finite amount of information.

However, I would also argue that it is practically or procedurally infinite. In calculus, one way you can prove that an infinite sum converges, is to show that another series, which converges slower still converges. (This means that is series A tends toward zero slower than series B, and it is known that series A is finite, then series B is also finite, since its member will become small even faster.) Here, it's kind of the opposite. If we had one known repository of knowledge that is growing faster than the entire internet, then we prove the internet is bound and finite.

To my knowledge, no such repository exists. Internet is bigger and grows faster than any other available system, therefore it may as well be infinite.

Another way of defining infinity is a number that's bigger than any number you pick. Since we do not have any other collection of information that is bigger than the internet, it is essentially infinite.

Oh yes, all those advanced calculus classes are finally paying off!

What you are saying makes no sense.

Because something is bigger than anything we know doesn't make it infinite.

Talk about faulty logic ...

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 09:27 AM
The net is Finite.

Its potential for space is ifininite. Yes, you can only have so many IPs, but the amount of web content on a single IP, with corresponing hardware, is infinite.

Even if you put a web server on every m˛ of this planet, the internet will not be infinite.

Really, really, really big doesn't make something infinite.

wdaniels
August 25th, 2008, 10:00 AM
However, I would also argue that it is practically or procedurally infinite.

This is what I mean by generating dynamic content.


What you are saying makes no sense.

Because something is bigger than anything we know doesn't make it infinite.

Talk about faulty logic ...

No, it does make sense (procedurally, not practically). You can construct an internet that will serve or produce an infinite amount of information using procedural code to generate the content, but not to store an infinite amount.

It is the definition of infinite that is faulty when applied to this question, not the logic.

gn2
August 25th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Infinity is a concept, it isn't a physical measure.

Anything that can be physically measured is finite.

The internet as it currently exists is finite.

The internet's potential for growth is open to debate because there's no way of knowing with 100% certainty if the universe has infinite mass or infinite volume or if it's even infinite at all.

wdaniels
August 25th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Infinity is a concept, it isn't a physical measure.

Anything that can be physically measured is finite.

Exactly, the question is meaningless until you abstract the concept of the internet as a model and thereby define infinite as it relates to the question.


The internet as it currently exists is finite.

The material internet is obviously finite, but does the abstract model permit (theoretically, since it is abstract) an infinite degree of storage and retrieval of information? It does.


The internet's potential for growth is open to debate because there's no way of knowing with 100% certainty if the universe has infinite mass or infinite volume or if it's even infinite at all.

There is no way of knowing with perfect certainty, but it is not considered to be infinite in any dimension by current scientific theories. In any case, as infinity relates to data, "information" is then the dimension, but this is a different model to space-time, so that does not need to be known to answer the question.

joninkrakow
August 25th, 2008, 10:25 AM
It just seems infinite because it's recursive. :-)

-Jon

celestius
August 25th, 2008, 10:50 AM
I would define the internet as being the hardware that stores all the data that is hosted on the internet. In this case it is definitely finite in that you will always be able to count the servers hosting whatever data it is that's available on it. Take a house with one room as an example, adding a room does not make it infinite in size because you will always be able to measure how big it is no matter how many rooms you added. I don't think that anything we create could ever be infinite, at least not in the tangible sense of the word anyway. However because there really is no limit to how many servers we could eventually build and add to the internet, assuming that there is infinite space in the universe, you could say that the internet has an infinite growth potential. There was an interesting earlier point brought up about how dynamically generated pages could make the internet have infinite content but I don't agree with this. Say you created a website on a computer that was calculating pi, a never repeating string of digits, and had it host the page with the results. Even though this page is being dynamically generated there is still a finite amount of space to store/display the results. Eventually the string of digits would fill up the hard drive of the computer calculating pi as a giant web page and because of this physical storage limitation your dynamic pages could never be infinite in complexity. At some point you will hit the hardware's memory limitation whether it be on the server side or the viewing computer's side. To put it another way, imagine if computers only had enough cache to view pages with two letters on it. You could create a site that displays a page with random two letter combinations of all the letters of the alphabet but eventually you will have to use the same two letter combination over. The same is true for current computer systems. Sure you could dynamically generate content but each computer can only store so much information so that dynamic content is limited to the storage capacity of the viewing computer and thus, subject to limitations on how many different combinations can be displayed. Sure there would be like a gajillion sites that you could make and store on a modern harddrive but if you look at it strictly from a 1's and 0's perspective there are only so many combinations of 1's and 0's that you can fit on a drive of any particular size.

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 11:10 AM
I'm no physicist but what about the following, please correct me if I am wrong:

Don't we have a problem here with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics? The universe is moving towards increased entropy and greater chaos. To build an infinite internet would require an infinite amount of energy - as it is the opposite of chaos.

All systems move towards greater entropy, and in doing so lose energy. Therefore, because the internet is not a perfect system there is always going to be energy loss, and hence you need more energy to build it than is contained within it.

As the universe increases in entropy, the energy available decreases, and so does the energy available to make an infinite internet, and hence it will never happen.

Any Physics people out there who actually know what they are talking about and can confirm or deny the above.

Mazza558
August 25th, 2008, 11:32 AM
If you take all the matter in the visible universe and turn it into servers, the internet is pretty much infinite in that it'd take AGES to use up all that space.

That's not forgetting that we can only see the visible universe. It is estimated that if the visible universe was the size of a 10p/10c coin, the true universe (that we can't see due to the light from those stars no even reaching us yet) would be the size of the earth.

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 11:39 AM
If you take all the matter in the visible universe and turn it into servers, the internet is pretty much infinite in that it'd take AGES to use up all that space.

That's not forgetting that we can only see the visible universe. It is estimated that if the visible universe was the size of a 10p/10c coin, the true universe (that we can't see due to the light from those stars no even reaching us yet) would be the size of the earth.

But, even if we could use all the matter, we would have to organise all the matter, and that would take more energy than was available from all the matter in the universe. Unless one can find an infinite source of energy that doesn't require using energy from the matter that one wants to use in the infinite internet.

The energy requirements are always going to be more than what it available. An infinite internet would use all the matter and energy of an infinite universe and then some!

shifty2
August 25th, 2008, 11:45 AM
Hilberts paradox:

In a hotel with a finite number of rooms, it is clear that once it is full, no more guests can be accommodated. Now, imagine a hotel with an infinite number of rooms. One might assume that the same problem will arise when a new guest comes along and all the rooms are occupied. However, in an infinite hotel, the situations "every room is occupied" and "no more guests can be accommodated" do not turn out to be equivalent. There is a way to solve the problem: if you move the guest occupying room 1 to room 2, the guest occupying room 2 to room 3, etc., you can fit the newcomer into room 1.

Infinite is a concept that can never exist in a material world.

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 12:17 PM
Hilberts paradox:


Infinite is a concept that can never exist in a material world.

Not sure if one can draw that stronger conclusion from it. Maybe that certain types of infinite things cannot exist in the material world, or at least it pushes particular intuitions.

But then again, going in the opposite direction, it seems intuitively true that between points A and B there are an infinite number or infinitely small spaces. Indeed, solutions to zeno's paradox type examples require that infinity exist in the material world by way of converging sequences coming to a finite point.

There are different "types" of infinity. Check out: http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/answers/infinity.html

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 01:26 PM
This is what I mean by generating dynamic content.



No, it does make sense (procedurally, not practically). You can construct an internet that will serve or produce an infinite amount of information using procedural code to generate the content, but not to store an infinite amount.

It is the definition of infinite that is faulty when applied to this question, not the logic.

I was talking about the storage capability.

As we all know the internet is nothing but computers hosting files (simply put). Since it's impossible to have an infinite number of computers (or an infinite storage device in those computers) it is impossible for the internet to be infinite.

A server could produce a constant stream of never ending data (providing it's on 24/7 until the collapse of the universe/planet/wherever it is), but that wouldn't make nor the data it produced nor the server infinite.

When I'm talking about "infinite" I image something like an bottomless pit. You can put everything in it, it will never even be 0.0000000000000001% full. If you know what I mean.

gn2
August 25th, 2008, 01:31 PM
The material internet is obviously finite, but does the abstract model permit (theoretically, since it is abstract) an infinite degree of storage and retrieval of information? It does.


But the ability to store data is detemined by the amount of physical hardware to store it on, therefore you can only store a finite amount of data at any one time.

You can abstract an infinite number of thoughts, but you can't think them all at once..... :D

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 01:32 PM
If the universe is one big computer (i.e. the underlying fabric of the universe is just information, which some physicists think it might be), and the universe is infinity large, then maybe, just maybe, we have an infinitely large computer!

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 01:47 PM
If the universe is one big computer (i.e. the underlying fabric of the universe is just information, which some physicists think it might be), and the universe is infinity large, then maybe, just maybe, we have an infinitely large computer!

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that "information = computer".

Lostincyberspace
August 25th, 2008, 01:52 PM
It is Finite at this point, but I remember an article lat year talking about how there will be more data off storage than on storage in 2007, I will go look for a reference, so that it means it might be infinite.

mellowd
August 25th, 2008, 01:53 PM
It is Finite at this point, but I remember an article lat year talking about how there will be more data off storage than on storage in 2007, I will go look for a reference, so that it means it might be infinite.

It means no such thing. There is still a finite amount of off-site storage

cespinal
August 25th, 2008, 01:55 PM
The net is Finite.

Its potential for space is ifininite. Yes, you can only have so many IPs, but the amount of web content on a single IP, with corresponing hardware, is infinite.

Then, in this sense... we can say that the net is finite at any given time, but limitless, in terms that you can always expand it.

Lostincyberspace
August 25th, 2008, 01:59 PM
It means no such thing. There is still a finite amount of off-site storage
I did not say off site, I said off storage, as in being transmitted at that time (big difference).

Don't expect people to make mistakes and then adjust for them, you might be wrong.

And like I said I am looking for reference, so just be patient.

mellowd
August 25th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I did not say off site, I said off storage, as in being transmitted at that time (big difference).

Don't expect people to make mistakes and then adjust for them, you might be wrong.

And like I said I am looking for reference, so just be patient.

Whatever reference you give will be incorrect. An infinite amount of data will never fit in the known universe. However 'big' the universe turns out to be, infinity is bigger

Lostincyberspace
August 25th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Whatever reference you give will be incorrect. An infinite amount of data will never fit in the known universe. However 'big' the universe turns out to be, infinity is bigger
It is not about the internet being infinite, just more data of storage than on.

But the real question is "Is the Universe infinite?"

I say yes.

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 02:19 PM
It is not about the internet being infinite, just more data of storage than on.

But the real question is "Is the Universe infinite?"

I say yes.

I don't think so.

This kind of thing is really hard for the human mind to comprehend.


We could never see a galaxy that is farther away in light travel time than the universe is old — an estimated 14 billion or so years. Thus, we are surrounded by a "horizon" that we cannot look beyond—a horizon set by the distance that light can travel over the age of the universe.

Behind that "edge" we don't know what's out there.

I could go on and one forever but there could be a big wall there. Nobody knows.

Let's think for a second what it would mean should the universe stop after that "edge".

What would be outside of those boundaries? Nothingness (I'm unable to visualize that)? Another Universe nothing like our own? Someone remember Man in Black, with the universe contained in a little ball around a cats neck? What if it's something like that? Scary but exiting stuff.

Ever since I was a child I also asked myself the question "how did the universe or the space the universe is in came to be? From where? Where did the "mass" came from that exploded and create the universe as we know?

Some people claim a Big Bang happens every x years (universe collapses into one big object agian), but that still doesn' answer where the original mass came from.

(don't say god, that's not an answer)

mellowd
August 25th, 2008, 02:23 PM
Let's think for a second what it would mean should the universe stop after that "edge".

What would be outside of those boundaries? Nothingness (I'm unable to visualize that)? Another Universe nothing like our own? Someone remember Man in Black, with the universe contained in a little ball around a cats neck? What if it's something like that? Scary but exiting stuff.


It's a well known fact that there is a resturant at the end of the universe. Must have great views!

Lostincyberspace
August 25th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I don't think so.

This kind of thing is really hard for the human mind to comprehend.


We could never see a galaxy that is farther away in light travel time than the universe is old — an estimated 14 billion or so years. Thus, we are surrounded by a "horizon" that we cannot look beyond—a horizon set by the distance that light can travel over the age of the universe.

Behind that "edge" we don't know what's out there.


There is an edge but it is not from the age of the universe it from the fact that as objects are farther away they appear to move faster, and when they appear to reach the speed of light they disappear. I actually think they have observed the effects of this, but I am probably wrong about that.

It is really hard to explain so that is the basics of it.

bonevg
August 25th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Nice thread :)
Everything have end, only the sausage have 2 :-P
However my opinion is (because the questions is philosophy oriented and there are not well defined "borders")
It just remains It`s up to your imagination.
Don`t try to put in some frames "Internet" as a bunch of servers.
More likely it is a virtualization of all known world, a way of communication and many things Im not going to mention.. yet lookin from this angle => Does the human imagination have an END, or we as human beings just really want things to have its own End :)

The frames are only in our heads :p

Mr. Picklesworth
August 25th, 2008, 03:28 PM
This doesn't need any bizarre theory, or a debate over whether the universe itself is infinite. Someone with lots of know-how and a really big calculator (http://qalculate.sourceforge.net/) could calculate the theoretical limits of the Internet's content.
For one thing, we are currently limited by ipv4 to a particular number of Internet-facing computers. We can access inside those computers when their services are tidily designed, but again there is a limit in place. The maximum size of a computer hard drive is limited both at the software level and at the hardware level.

It's an enormous number, but it is there. We also have to take into account the possibility that data can continually shrink. I don't believe anyone has figured out a good pattern with regards to how far something could shrink, so that can still be considered infinite since any arbitrarily long string could be triggered by a small number... even so, that string has to be stored somewhere, so it's just another huge number. The lack of infinities in computers is a bit disappointing, really; there's lots of really arbitrary stuff when we hit the hardware.

With regards to technical hardware capability, it is certainly not infinite. This, of course, still hinges on whether one is thinking in three or four dimensions, and whether one believes the future to already exist or not.

klange
August 25th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I'm going to repeat something I already said:
Virtually infinite.

Lord DarkPat
August 25th, 2008, 04:31 PM
it really depends, it'll probably be infinite if we migrate to Mars or something..... :D
But seriously, there is a very large possibility that storage can become very big and servers small(1 YB server the size of a hard drive) Technically, it is finite, but practically, it's infinite

Erdaron
August 25th, 2008, 06:21 PM
I'm no physicist but what about the following, please correct me if I am wrong:

Don't we have a problem here with entropy and the second law of thermodynamics? The universe is moving towards increased entropy and greater chaos. To build an infinite internet would require an infinite amount of energy - as it is the opposite of chaos.

All systems move towards greater entropy, and in doing so lose energy. Therefore, because the internet is not a perfect system there is always going to be energy loss, and hence you need more energy to build it than is contained within it.

As the universe increases in entropy, the energy available decreases, and so does the energy available to make an infinite internet, and hence it will never happen.

Any Physics people out there who actually know what they are talking about and can confirm or deny the above.

First off, entropy is not disorder. Order / chaos are mostly subjective labels. Entropy is the number of degrees of freedom available to a system. For example, a perfectly ordered crystal has very high entropy.

The relevant extension of your thinking is that transfer of information is imperfect. So internet - considered for the moment just a giant storage device - could not accumulate all of the information available in the universe. However, even if it succeeded in recording only half the information, but the universe were infinite, the internet would still be infinite.

Also, presence of dynamic content does not improve internet's infinity. Limitation of space means that there is a finite number of bits available, and so there is a finite number of combinations of ones and zeros.

@billgoldberg: my argument for infinity is practical. Imagine if someone unfamiliar with the internet were to examine it. The internet would appear to be bigger than any other information system. Hence, it is immeasurable. From God's point of view - who has access to all information in the universe instantaneously - the internet is finite because He knows exactly what is it on it at every point in time. To a regular observer, however, it may as well be infinite, since no matter what reference you picked, the internet would still be greater.

billgoldberg
August 25th, 2008, 06:27 PM
@billgoldberg: my argument for infinity is practical. Imagine if someone unfamiliar with the internet were to examine it. The internet would appear to be bigger than any other information system.

-- > Hence, it is immeasurable. ??????



I'm going to repeat something I already said:
Virtually infinite.

That's just another word for saying "really big".

Lostincyberspace
August 25th, 2008, 06:35 PM
This doesn't need any bizarre theory, or a debate over whether the universe itself is infinite. Someone with lots of know-how and a really big calculator (http://qalculate.sourceforge.net/) could calculate the theoretical limits of the Internet's content.
For one thing, we are currently limited by ipv4 to a particular number of Internet-facing computers. We can access inside those computers when their services are tidily designed, but again there is a limit in place. The maximum size of a computer hard drive is limited both at the software level and at the hardware level.

It's an enormous number, but it is there. We also have to take into account the possibility that data can continually shrink. I don't believe anyone has figured out a good pattern with regards to how far something could shrink, so that can still be considered infinite since any arbitrarily long string could be triggered by a small number... even so, that string has to be stored somewhere, so it's just another huge number. The lack of infinities in computers is a bit disappointing, really; there's lots of really arbitrary stuff when we hit the hardware.

With regards to technical hardware capability, it is certainly not infinite. This, of course, still hinges on whether one is thinking in three or four dimensions, and whether one believes the future to already exist or not.
Actually that is a grave misconception, there are only so many that can be accessible directly over the internet. You can have many more though on a private network though using 10.*.*.* addresses so each network could have 16,777,216 and if you multiply that by the number of available IP addresses you get the true number of computers that can be connected to the internet. FYI it is at least 720,275,773,704,896,512 or 720 quadrillion more than enough for every one in the world that has ever lived, just not web servers.

But IPv6 which should be better supported can handle in excess of 340,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0 unique addresses or 340 undecillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecillion) one for every molecule on the earth I believe.

gletob
August 25th, 2008, 06:44 PM
All I know is this discussion is Infinite

wdaniels
August 25th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Also, presence of dynamic content does not improve internet's infinity. Limitation of space means that there is a finite number of bits available, and so there is a finite number of combinations of ones and zeros.

Allowing procedural operations upon the number of ones and zeros establishes a meta-model whereby infinity can be dealt with, the same way as infinity can exist in our minds and in mathematics without being limited by the amount of matter in the universe from which human minds might be constructed.


since no matter what reference you picked, the internet would still be greater.

Not greater necessarily, but uncountable, which tends to be how we define infinity in mathematics and elsewhere.


You can abstract an infinite number of thoughts, but you can't think them all at once..... :D

True, but you still might say that thought is infinite. If you want to say that the internet is both dimensions (i.e. temporal and in information) so that we say an infinite internet theoretically permits access to an uncountable number of bits at all points in time, we would indeed have trouble.


A server could produce a constant stream of never ending data (providing it's on 24/7 until the collapse of the universe/planet/wherever it is), but that wouldn't make nor the data it produced nor the server infinite.

Why not? It only depends on how you define infinity for the question (i.e. for which sets you want to determine the cardinal number), if you include any dimension of the material universe in that (time or space) then you cannot have infinity.


When I'm talking about "infinite" I image something like an bottomless pit. You can put everything in it, it will never even be 0.0000000000000001% full. If you know what I mean.

If you take that interpretation then we needn't bother to ask the question since the answer is self-evident ontologically.

NAT and other forms of routing allow us to extend the number of nodes participating in the internet well beyond limits set by IP addresses and so forth. I don't believe the protocols (which can still be modelled abstractly) set a finite limit, other than perhaps the size of a URL if you want to go that far.

To my mind, the only sensible interpretation of the question is whether there is a constraint in the theoretical model that would allow us to prove that it is mathematically finite. It may be possible to do that, but I think it is much more difficult than pointing to finite limits on IP addresses or the number of atoms in the universe.

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 09:26 PM
I don't know how you come to the conclusion that "information = computer".

I didn't. What is important is whether the information is organised and processed in particular way.

starcannon
August 25th, 2008, 09:30 PM
It is ever expanding until such time as it reaches its maximum capacity I should think. That said, since technology is out pacing the growth of the internet, I should think that it is not likely that we should outgrow the mechanical abilities anytime soon, but anything is possible I suppose; anyone got a improbability factor on any of this?

Chessmaster
August 25th, 2008, 09:35 PM
However, even if it succeeded in recording only half the information, but the universe were infinite, the internet would still be infinite.

If an infinite universe has an infinite amount of information does it even make sense to talk of half of that information?

regomodo
August 25th, 2008, 10:01 PM
#

fatality_uk
August 25th, 2008, 10:14 PM
It can be both or neither!

gn2
August 25th, 2008, 11:04 PM
It's a well known fact that there is a resturant at the end of the universe. Must have great views!

And a very grumpy parking attendant called Marvin.

gn2
August 25th, 2008, 11:13 PM
~you still might say that thought is infinite. If you want to say that the internet is both dimensions (i.e. temporal and in information) so that we say an infinite internet theoretically permits access to an uncountable number of bits at all points in time, we would indeed have trouble.

Perhaps a way of thinking about the internet would be that there is no limit to what may potentially be stored on it, but the amount of data that can be stored on it at any point in time is finite.
As for time, that too is finite, limited by the longevity of the hardware and how long the source of energy to power it lasts.

Erdaron
August 25th, 2008, 11:28 PM
If an infinite universe has an infinite amount of information does it even make sense to talk of half of that information?

In that case it simply becomes a probability. If you recorded half the information in an infinite universe, it means that if you randomly picked a bit of information in the universe and then checked to see if it has been recorded correctly, you would have a 50% chance of finding it in your records.

lukjad
August 25th, 2008, 11:55 PM
Considering that we do not know if the universe is finite or infinite, it is impossible to be absolutely sure if there is a limit on the potential amounts of computers created. However, we can be absolutely certain that since the computers must be connected in some way and that we can only build a finite amount of computer, even with an infinite amount of materials, the Internet is finite. Infinity is something that has no end. As long as we can (theoretically) calculate the amount of computers (i.e. forever) then the Internet will remain finite. As long as there is an end, then there something is finite. Even the Universe may be finite. The potential for the size of the Internet may be infinite, however, it will never reach its full potential.

lukjad
August 25th, 2008, 11:58 PM
In that case it simply becomes a probability. If you recorded half the information in an infinite universe, it means that if you randomly picked a bit of information in the universe and then checked to see if it has been recorded correctly, you would have a 50% chance of finding it in your records.

Some infinites are smaller than others. (Seriously!) That was proven because someone stated that you can never get through a door because you always have to go half way to the door, then half way again... etc. However, it was later proved that some infinites are smaller than others and therefore you can now safely walk through a door without breaking any laws. So, while you could try to have half of infinity, you would end up with infinity, therefore you cannot truly have half or even quarter of any infinite subject as you would have another infinite section, albeit a smaller one. So, no, you cannot store it, but you can know it is there and do your best to learn the finite amount you can.

Chessmaster
August 26th, 2008, 03:31 AM
In that case it simply becomes a probability. If you recorded half the information in an infinite universe, it means that if you randomly picked a bit of information in the universe and then checked to see if it has been recorded correctly, you would have a 50% chance of finding it in your records.

Or, if one had an infinite number of hotel rooms but only every second room was occupied, then you would have half of the infinite amount of hotel rooms even thought that number itself would be infinite.

starcannon
August 26th, 2008, 04:40 AM
Or, if one had an infinite number of hotel rooms but only every second room was occupied, then you would have half of the infinite amount of hotel rooms even thought that number itself would be infinite.

So then one wonders, how does one split infinity in half.

shifty2
August 26th, 2008, 07:47 AM
So then one wonders, how does one split infinity in half.

Half infinity == infinity

Chessmaster
August 26th, 2008, 10:04 AM
So then one wonders, how does one split infinity in half.

Line them all up in pairs in an infinitely long line and only take the ones on the right (or left).

starcannon
August 26th, 2008, 11:43 AM
hehe, infinity is linear then?

lukjad
August 26th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Any infinite set has an infinite set of infinites. Chew on THAT!

nick09
August 26th, 2008, 01:21 PM
Finite as it always expands. Infinite would be too much.

Chessmaster
August 26th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Finite as it always expands. Infinite would be too much.

Infinitely expanding at an infinity increasing rate.

c2olen
August 26th, 2008, 02:26 PM
Ahh,but doesn't that also make it infinite :p?Because just by adding one server it adds more space <.<.

In large datacenters around the world, the majority of storage is not directly related to servers, but provides through storage arrays and storage networks.
Thus, adding servers is not the meassure of infinicy in the land of internet. They add to the processing power of course, but for most hosting providers and the likes, adding more storage is done by means of dedicated storage boxes. TB's of storage can be added without adding servers.

The storage technologies however, keep evolving (http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/sj/422/morris.html)also. Redundant data is stripped so data is stored de-duplicated (http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci1248105,00.html#), thus consuming less physical storage space, thus more data can be stored per m2 of floorspace. De-duplication ratio's of 25 to 1 are quite common.
Floorspace is finite, but the amount of data stored per m2 increases periodically, so there is some form of infinicy (hope i spelled it right).

Where does it end. Who knows.

lukjad
August 26th, 2008, 02:35 PM
Since there is an end, it must be finite.

starcannon
August 26th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Any infinite set has an infinite set of infinites. Chew on THAT!

I'm gonna go play with fractals for awhile, when one looks into the abyss it should at least display pretty colors.

lukjad
August 26th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Any infinite set has an infinite set of infinites.
That took a lot of work. Is that better?

Delever
August 26th, 2008, 11:46 PM
OK.

Does "always big enough" cut it?

:lolflag:

lukjad
August 27th, 2008, 12:06 AM
For me, yes. For those less math savvy, no. :lol:

starcannon
August 27th, 2008, 03:14 AM
Any infinite set has an infinite set of infinites.
That took a lot of work. Is that better?

Thanks for the seizure :lolflag:

days_of_ruin
August 27th, 2008, 03:48 AM
earlier I had a rather interesting intellectual discussion with a friend. Since there are serval million new pages a day on the net, why has it not been filled. Also, what is the true size of the net. The latter cannot never be achieve due to the fact that it is always forever expanding, but there can only be so much space that can be created and it is bound to end up being used. What do you think?

You answer your question right there.Something that is infinite by definition cannot get bigger.

Cl0ud9
August 27th, 2008, 03:51 AM
Both. In the United States it is infinite. In China it is finite.

Nostrafus
August 27th, 2008, 11:56 AM
I'm going to have to go with finite. Were the alternative incalculable I'd go with that, but the word infinite is one I am not a fan of. While it may be impossible, or at least incredibly difficult to define the size of the internet, it still can be measured.

The word infinite by definition means without limit, and I believe everything to be finite, while we may not have an equation, formula, or idea of how to calculate something, take the density and size of a black hole, it still does take up 3 dimensions in space, and is therefor finite, we just don't know how to measure it, as with the universe, as with the amount of atoms in a hypergiant star, and as with the internet.

Chessmaster
August 27th, 2008, 01:37 PM
Were the alternative incalculable I'd go with that, but the word infinite is one I am not a fan of.

You can measure the infinite...it just takes forever to do it! ;)

EdThaSlayer
August 27th, 2008, 02:40 PM
The internet is like a living organism, it divides and multiplies exponentially. So yeah, it's basically "infinite" especially since our technology seems to improve so quickly. :)

|{urse
November 29th, 2008, 06:38 PM
finite! considering the internet runs on a large network made of plentiful but LIMITED physical resources. I'm sure we would run out of metal for hard disks to acommodate disk space for web content sooner or later. Even if we didn't run out and had a limitless supply the earth will only be the correct distance from the sun to support life for so long.


finite finite finite!!

linuxguymarshall
November 29th, 2008, 06:42 PM
The Internet is not all on one server. It's on many all over the world. The Internet will never end. Until we use up all our metal and can't make any more storage

fatality_uk
November 29th, 2008, 07:20 PM
The Internet is not all on one server. It's on many all over the world. The Internet will never end. Until we use up all our metal and can't make any more storage

Assuming future storage is metal!!! 3d holographic drives could be here soon

Mason Whitaker
November 29th, 2008, 07:24 PM
I also heard that they are experimenting with keeping data in crystals :D

The internet is merely an interconnected "web" of millions of servers found all around the world. It depends on your definition of the word "infinite", but I'd have to say no.

CJ Master
November 29th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Another way of defining infinity is a number that's bigger than any number you pick.

I choose the number infinity. :)

|{urse
November 29th, 2008, 09:30 PM
even more amazing is the use of rna for storage which can be replicated. Unless we start worrying about just how exactly we are going to find a new host planet when earth exits the goldilocks zone (not too cold not too hot, just right) then the internet and almost all living things on earth will cease to be. I'd also like to point out that if/when we get the new internet set up on a new planet/space station/whatever we probably wont be speaking english so "the internet" is surely doomed. Again, I'd be really surprised if we got off facebook/myspace/ubuntu forums/whatever long enough to find a suitable second earth. Also important to point out is that the earth is currently scheduled to be demolished to make way for a new interstellar bypass by the vogons. ^^

Kain000
November 29th, 2008, 11:29 PM
I agree that the internet is finite because there will always be a limit to the space available on all the servers in the world, however praticaly it is infinite I would say, as each day there are more and more servers brought online, so the internet is ever expanding it's finite limit.

smartboyathome
November 29th, 2008, 11:48 PM
Well, since infinaty is a way of expressing really large numbers which theoretically have no limit, and the internet theoretically has no limit*, I would say its infinate.

*Since we are already developing new drives which can hold more data and use less material, that aspect isn't taken into consideration here.

zmjjmz
November 30th, 2008, 12:22 AM
Well, since infinaty is a way of expressing really large numbers which theoretically have no limit, and the internet theoretically has no limit*, I would say its infinate.

*Since we are already developing new drives which can hold more data and use less material, that aspect isn't taken into consideration here.

At a certain point we will have to give up on Moore's Law.
Even then, the Universe is technically infinite, so the internet will be infinite (if a bit laggy considering all the lightyears the servers will be apart.)

lukjad
November 30th, 2008, 04:01 PM
The Internet is finite. Period.

The POTENTIAL for the internet is unknown, but we know for certain that the Internet is finite.

END OF STORY! Bye bye! See you later.

(Now, someone mention parfaits.)

|{urse
December 3rd, 2008, 07:39 PM
Just as im sure some people thought this debate could go on forever, it didn't.

Now, the bump thread.. i dont know about infinite but it will surely outlive the internet.
:guitar:

MikeTheC
December 3rd, 2008, 07:54 PM
Imagine having to pay the property taxes on an infinite universe.

Imagine having to pay the service fees on infinite bandwith.

Imagine having no more pizza.


Ah, behold three things which no one should have to imagine.