Traveler's Laptops May Be Detained at Border

[Amurko]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/01/AR2008080103030.html

I'm wondering.. if you're running Linux, could it further arouse their suspicions since it's not something they see on a regular basis? Has anyone here ever had their linux laptops checked at the borders?

[LaRoza]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/01/AR2008080103030.html

I'm wondering.. if you're running Linux, could it further arouse their suspicions since it's not something they see on a regular basis? Has anyone here ever had their linux laptops checked at the borders?

Wow. This is why you mail your stuff ahead, instead of taking it with you.

[Amurko]

Wow. This is why you mail your stuff ahead, instead of taking it with you.

Not always worth the time and money.. plus, they can always inspect international mail anyways

[gn2]

What a stupid idea, has to be about the most futile waste of time I've heard of in quite some time.

[Frak]

Hey, quit taking my laptop, take my suicide vest instead... don't want that?... ok, whatever, take the freaking laptop. :P

[LaRoza]

Not always worth the time and money.. plus, they can always inspect international mail anyways

I was joking.

[Orlsend]

Actually at Check ups *I get them alot cuz I am latino traveling always between Midle east and USA, they require to boot up you pc and check if they have traces of Torrents or other ilegal Materials *I tell them I always Use legal torrents >.>

But this only happend to me when I had Windows, I would like to see what happens when they see Ubuntu.

They prov think I am Socialist or sumthing of that trend...

[kernelhaxor]

I too was asked to boot up my laptop (I have Windows on my laptop). They took it for a minute or two and then gave it back to me. I think I did have a lot of illegally downloaded movies and music .. pretty sure thts not wht they r lookin for

[Frak]

I remember taking my laptop to the airport returning from London. They booted it up (SparcTop, OpenSparc laptop running Solaris) and found Unix on there, so they called some guys and took it. Didn't get it back for a day.

[tiachopvutru]

Ah... International/Political Border. :)

I thought you were talking about the bookstore, but then, it's missing an s.

[Barrucadu]

Hmm, and I used to want to visit America...

[Orlsend]

It Happens everywhere,Also they asked me to boot it up in Germany... they dint check anything though.

[Sand & Mercury]

I've never been asked to boot up my lappy when travelling between countries... why would they?

[pt123]

Luckily it's only the US, that country has become like KGB run Soviet Union in the last few years.

One of the worst places to live in the western world.

[kef_kf]

I've never been asked to boot up my lappy when travelling between countries... why would they?

to confirm that it is actually a computer and not something else in computer casing.

[Polygon]

but it might be like in an episode of 24 (the tv show), where the laptop does show a boot up screen, but then it disassembles into a case for an sniper rifle =)

[klange]

but it might be like in an episode of 24 (the tv show), where the laptop does show a boot up screen, but then it disassembles into a case for an sniper rifle =)
Isn't that a standard feature on new ToughBooks?

Never had to turn mine on at a security checkpoint.

[mips]

What stops you from simply encrypting the HD or hiding/encrypting certain folders?

[gn2]

Then there's the problem that for a while laptops became incendiary devices due to dodgy batteries. http://tinyurl.com/fljwq

[cardinals_fan]

When I get a laptop, I'll cross the border and see what they think of NetBSD. That's if this idiotic policy is still enforced when I get a laptop (a couple years probably) ;)

[tamoneya]

What stops you from simply encrypting the HD or hiding/encrypting certain folders?

they either ask you to decrypt them other wise they hold your laptop indefinitely. Fortutately I dont keep much sensitive stuff on my laptop. I just pull whatever I need through an encrypted ssh connection. That way even if they snoop on my internet it isnt a problem.

[Erdaron]

It seems odd that on US soil, a US citizen can be searched or his property seized without at least probably cause, and in best case a court order, certainly not without a quick flurry of law suits.

I work with some people who have higher security clearance than anyone working at the airport, so by government's own regulations airport personnel shouldn't be able to look at those notebooks. I wonder how that works out.

[Frak]

to confirm that it is actually a computer and not something else in computer casing.
Then I REALLY don't want you to turn it on. ;)

[LaRoza]

One of the worst places to live in the western world.

Oh? That is very exaggerated. When bad things really happen, then complain.


It seems odd that on US soil, a US citizen can be searched or his property seized without at least probably cause, and in best case a court order, certainly not without a quick flurry of law suits.

Border rules are very different.

[eilu]

This seems to fall under the "random paranoid and hysteria" end of the scale. Look at my laptop, ask me to turn it on, fine. But seize it? Indefinitely? How do I know they're not just using the seized laptops for themselves (or selling it)?

One more reason not to go to the US.

And then if you happen to have a Linux laptop and a non-tech savvy officer, he'll look at you funny and say "Linux is it? Where's Windows??? What are you hiding??????" blow a code and get you tackled by 12 other burly officers and shipped to who knows where for questioning. :mad:

This sort of thing makes me want to hide a bomb in a laptop just to show them :lolflag:
Tip for the US: stop ******* people off!

[lisati]

I don't know why they'd want to "confiscate" a person's laptop (or other personal items) unless there was something about their demeanor or the answers on the usual paperwork travelers have to fill in that would arouse the border staff's suspicions.....

[perce]

I don't know why they'd want to "confiscate" a person's laptop (or other personal items) unless there was something about their demeanor or the answers on the usual paperwork travelers have to fill in that would arouse the border staff's suspicions.....

Maybe the officer had a fight with her husband that morning, and went to work in a bad mood...

[barbedsaber]

I watch border security here in Australia (show about the people that protect the aussie border) we have REALLY strict laws, and in one episode, they had to check someones computer, to make sure his pr0n wasn't really really bad (torture, animals, other sick things) he was let off, because nothing went against their guidelines, but another guy had heaps of dvd's confiscated and destroyed, sicko!

[23meg]

Oh? That is very exaggerated. When bad things really happen, then complain.

Would you tolerate a law that proposed that government agents could break into your house and install spyware on your computer that gave them full access to all your data, or take away your HD for an indefinite period of time, at their discretion, without a warrant?

[cybrsaylr]

I live in WNY and every week lately they arrest at least one person because they found child porn on their laptop. Porn, pirated programs illegal movies, or music and terrorist info are what they are looking for. They can take your laptop, copy all the contents or keep it as long as they want.

If it's encrypted in any way, you have to let them in, or they will keep your PC.

Big Brother is live and well in the USA.

[fillintheblanks]

does this apply to USB flash drives as well?

do they check what you got on those?

or what happens if you have a laptop, and you don't have any OS installed on it.. are they going to confiscate it?

[LaRoza]

does this apply to USB flash drives as well?

Probably not.



do they check what you got on those?
I think they are trying to verify it is first of all real and not hiding anything (you see it in the movies all the time, things being hidden in electronics) and finding data that is worth finding. I do not think they are looking for "piracy", as that is really minor especially in light of their jobs.



or what happens if you have a laptop, and you don't have any OS installed on it.. are they going to confiscate it?
They aren't confiscating or booting all laptops...

[geogur]

there are other concerns at a air port . smugglers for years have been taking common items emptying them only to fill them with things unnone . this is the real cause for the booting up not seeing win on boot up is a suppise now but this will change they will see linux and we will convert them too.

[LaRoza]

but this will change they will see linux and we will convert them too.

They will not be able to resist. Perhaps we could employ them in our efforts, by giving them free disks and explaining it is FREE and try to get them to confiscate all laptops and install Linux on them.

[geogur]

i would be more worried about being seen traveling with win. that would be bad .

[Spike-X]

So are we safe yet?

[fillintheblanks]

Probably not.

but then you can boot from a USB drive, nice loophole

[geogur]

i tried to put linux on a usb to install ubuntu on my eeepc but no success so i am running zandros for now i must try again

[LaRoza]

but then you can boot from a USB drive, nice loophole

Ask the average person what devices are bootable on modern BIOS's and see what they say :-)

[geogur]

when i showed knopix to win users they went crazy what`s this on my pc? then i showed them the cd and lost that cd only to see them show another .

[phidia]

There are a few threads in the forums here on this situation.
Today someone emailed me this story (http://www.reason.com/news/show/127933.html).
Maybe it's getting crazier out there?

[Chame_Wizard]

USA getting crazier(some countries to)

[adamogardner]

the way i understand it, They ask you to turn elecronic devices on to see if the work as intended. If your computer had a dead battery that would raise a bigger red flag than if it turned on. And of course if it turns on and acts like it's screwed all up that will raise red flags. They are also looking at you. if you break out into a sweat as your opeining up the laptop - redflag - they'll probably detain you and not let you turn it on at all.

[WorldTripping]

does this apply to USB flash drives as well?

do they check what you got on those?



It's all electronica.

Phones
iPods (or other mp3 player)
Memory Cards in cameras
USB sticks.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/24/us_border_control_laptop_searches/

And it's not only to prevent smuggling / terr-rists, but to look for potentially illegal content.

(Very soon, you will be detained for that large, unlicensed music collection.)

[billgoldberg]

I think it's ok for laptops to be checked at the border.

As long as they don't go opening and copying personal documents.

It might be best to leave your movie and audio collection at home, and copy it from your secure server when you're there.

--

I'd love to see there faces when you boot up your computer and without any graphical login manager.

And with fluxbox installed without the right-click and panel (only keyboard shortcuts) with some strange looking text on the desktop (you can use conky for that :p).

That would get the laptop seized for a few days guaranteed.

[karellen]

I guess I should enjoy my freedom here in Romania while I still can (here at least 90% of everything - and I mean everything, software, music, movies - that's on a pc is pirated)

[Diggs808]

Having traveled with a Laptop recently, All I had to do was turn it on. My battery had breathed its last and I explained that to them. They let me plug it in and boot it up. I ended up spending 30 minutes showing the screener all the cool stuff he could do in Ubuntu. One thing I always do is to carry the Ubuntu CD with me. That way if there is any question I have a branded, official software disk that explains what Ubuntu is. Generally, as long as it boots up, there is no problem. The only time I have ever heard of people being searched more thoroughly was when they are coming from a country that has a high participation in the child porn/child sex slave rings around the world.

As far as laptop searches....

No law is perfect, neither is any regulation. Like most laws here in the US, there is a vetting process that tests the legality of the law. That is the beauty of our system. It allows for changes and growth (and yes, mistakes too!). I have faith in our system that a balance will be struck. There are always those out there who will want to take security to an extreme and those who will take freedom to an extreme. The system, given time, will strike a balance between the two.

Personally, I don't mind starting up my laptop and proving that it actually works. When it boots in less than a minute the TSA folks are always impressed. :-)

[Spike-X]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Spike-X/cavity.jpg

[egwest]

I came through SeaTac Airport on my way home from a meeting in Japan, and they had me turn on my computer, which only boots in to Ubuntu, and they did not even bat an eye or question me about it, they just want to verify that it is in fact an operable computer.

[jeyaganesh]

Laptops, smart phones and hand held gaming devices are ubiquitous things nowadays. It is waste of time to search hundreds of innocent people. If they find anyone suspicious, then they can search his devices.

Moreover, now everybody know this news. So culprits wont bring laptop with them.

From last few bombing incidence, in our country, India, Police found terrorists used cell phone to communicate with each other.

This law is going to disturb lot of innocent travelers. But I dont think so it will affect Americans lot.

It is like searching needle in hay stack.

Philosophy: Make peace. Be Free.

[geekygirl]

All this means that you have to get to the airport at least 24 hours prior to your flights departure, and/or be prepared to hang around some crappy airport upon entry to the USA for anything up to 24 hours whilst they check out your notebook. (oh how much fun will that be after spending 18 hours on an aircraft just to get there...)

This will do wonders for the tourist industry and international business sector! (probably nothing because people will just come to expect it *sigh*)

I call it a knee jerk reaction, and if this is all part of the CRAP that the RIAA has instigated with regards to all people being suspected media pirates if they use an ipod etc - well I guess people will now be more wary about visiting the USA from foreign countries, using ipods, iphones,(funny how they are designed and made by an American company!) any sort of mobile digital device in the USA, because I guess the reaction will be to prove that the music on your ipod is actually what you have in a collection at home (in another country governed by different copyright laws)...will people be required to just resort back to the good old CD player to travel around the US?! Old School Style (and then you would have to explain not wanting to travel with genuine CD's only copies in case they got lost or knocked off as well!!)

bugger that...old school FTL!! :D

Too bad if you arrive from another country where backing up your music and movie collection is considered legal under that countries copyright laws...

This sort of thing annoys the crap out of me, for a country that is busy preaching to the rest of the world about freedom and how wonderful they are, they themselves seem to be very quick to take away certain freedoms from people that intend to just visit the place - hypocritical...

At least thats what it appears to be on the surface of it all anyways.

Land of the free my butt!!!

I am going to China instead.

[LaRoza]

It just occurred to me:

"Traveler's Laptops May Be Detained at Border"

I wonder if they question them and they can consult a lawyer? Fight for Laptop Rights!

[Frak]

This is the least of my problems, unfortunately I use American Airlines which from what I saw on the news today is shortening the expiration of FF miles from 3 years to 18 months and they're increasing the amount of miles needed to fly. With all of that, there is a $50-$350 fee just to use your miles. AA isn't even the worst ones, other airlines are strapping down harder on their customers.

[wirepuller134]

When returning from Iraq on civilian flight, in Holland their customs took my laptop apart and viewed the pictures on my camera. In Detroit, where I reentered the states, customs took my camera, which I still have not got back, and all the digital media that was in the case. I was active duty Army coming home with an injury, and the officials did not like my duffel bags. These laws they are enforcing are nothing new, just being enforced to an extreme. I found an article on a privately owned website that is worth the read, about proposed changes to existing laws.
http://hstoday.us/content/view/4637/128/

[tom66]

All that was required for me was to show them I had a laptop in my case. Then they x-rayed it.

[wirepuller134]

They gave me some story about bringing sand back in it....so they looked for sand in it.

[tigrezno]

I will never visit US, it's starting to stink. I really don't understand how US citizens allow all this crap.

[sailor2001]

short memories, people........wasn't very long ago a plane was brought down over Lockabee, Scotland because of a portable radio/recorder that wasn't.

[gn2]

short memories, people........wasn't very long ago a plane was brought down over Lockabee, Scotland because of a portable radio/recorder that wasn't.

If I remember correctly it had departed from Germany.

Any bomb could be placed aboard any civil aircraft at any time.
Any civil aircraft can be brought down by a simple portable shoulder launched device.

Randomly taking possession of peoples' laptops and searching the data on them will not remove any terrorist threat.

[teknnoid]

They've been doing this in other places for years. The US is finally catching up in the security area.

I've traveled to quite a few countries on business. Until 9/11 the security here was a joke. It was on the lower end, with Israel being the other extreme. I got into Israel with no problem. Getting out was an adventure. Turning on the laptop was only part of it. I never could figure out why they thought a middle-aged white guy traveling to a branch of his employer to train folks presented a threat. Questioned for 2 hrs- and I was leaving.

China wasn't much better than Israel. Japan, Brazil, Germany, and even the UK, had more security than the US then.

Some folks look for black helicopters, and break out the tinfoil hats. I look at the facts (and not exaggerations)of what is actually happening before getting my shorts in a knot.

[tigrezno]

the world (and freedom) are in trouble these days...
what if i have pics of my girlfriend in some strange behaviour? why do i have to show them to a police?

it's non sense

[Spike-X]

I've traveled to quite a few countries on business. Until 9/11 the security here was a joke.

What, and it's not now? Confiscating bottled water? Denying people access to their prescription medications? Look at all the meaningless hoops people have to jump through just to get on a plane these days, and tell me the terrorists aren't winning.

[LaRoza]

What, and it's not now? Confiscating bottled water? Denying people access to their prescription medications? Look at all the meaningless hoops people have to jump through just to get on a plane these days, and tell me the terrorists aren't winning.

A plane: A large, explosive flying vehicle that can be controlled and often carry many people. There is a reason why terrorists find them attractive ;)

[zmjjmz]

My gdm login screen is the "Don't Panic" one.
I wonder if that's a bad idea...

[LaRoza]

My gdm login screen is the "Don't Panic" one.
I wonder if that's a bad idea...

Large friendly letters? If so, they shouldn't panic.

What happens if you query it for "earth"?

[cardinals_fan]

what, and it's not now? Confiscating bottled water? Denying people access to their prescription medications? Look at all the meaningless hoops people have to jump through just to get on a plane these days, and tell me the terrorists aren't winning.
+1

[LaRoza]

What, and it's not now? Confiscating bottled water? Denying people access to their prescription medications? Look at all the meaningless hoops people have to jump through just to get on a plane these days, and tell me the terrorists aren't winning.


+1

Then don't use those services.

It is not a right, it is a service. If you don't agree to the terms of use, don't use it.

[Frak]

Then don't use those services.

It is not a right, it is a service. If you don't agree to the terms of use, don't use it.
Well said.

[cardinals_fan]

Then don't use those services.

It is not a right, it is a service. If you don't agree to the terms of use, don't use it.
I wouldn't mind if I thought any useful security was provided. However, in my opinion, all the current security checks are really just illusions.

[LaRoza]

I wouldn't mind if I thought any useful security was provided. However, in my opinion, all the current security checks are really just illusions.

Better than fireballs that are real ;)

It is easy to dismiss things as not working, and hard to prove they are, however, one can say since these measures have been implemented, even the silly ones, nothing has happened, they have "worked". If the airlines have a reputation for searching every crevice, they will be unattractive to terrorists. Note, terrorists rarely target things that are heavily defended, in fact, no one does. All the school shootings have been at schools with strict weapons policies (and the schools that allow legal firearms and have trained people with them as teachers or students have had no problems), for example.

[mike1234]

What stops you from simply encrypting the HD or hiding/encrypting certain folders?

I think the idea is to NOT raise suspicion? Feel sorry for IT workers who must take their laptops when traveling.

M.

[LaRoza]

I think the idea is to NOT raise suspicion? Feel sorry for IT workers who must take their laptops when traveling.

M.

The suspicion isn't about data, but the internals. If it works, it is a real computer.

So they aren't looking at your browser's cache, they just want to see it working. Of course, if you have data that is sensitive (or you want to keep private) either don't bring it with you or encrypt it. If your computer automatically logs in, and your extensive collection of bivalve porn is there, you have no one to blame but yourself.

[mike1234]

There are a few threads in the forums here on this situation.
Today someone emailed me this story (http://www.reason.com/news/show/127933.html).
Maybe it's getting crazier out there?

I like this line.......

"the government is using fear of terrorism to justify extraordinarily invasive, suspicionless searches in the service of ordinary police work. In these circumstances, the real danger is the absence of second-guessing".

Nice.

M.

[mike1234]

The suspicion isn't about data, but the internals. If it works, it is a real computer.

So they aren't looking at your browser's cache, they just want to see it working. Of course, if you have data that is sensitive (or you want to keep private) either don't bring it with you or encrypt it. If your computer automatically logs in, and your extensive collection of bivalve porn is there, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I was commenting on "encryption" specifically. Police by design look for anything suspect. And not everyone is into porn. Anyone who believes the Government isn't making a record of seized Data, is terribly naive. If you make a copy of a DVD movie you purchased, for example, just for safekeeping and watch only the copy, you are guilty of being in possession of "counterfeit" movies. That's how they see it. Black and White.

M.

M.

[zmjjmz]

I was commenting on "encryption" specifically. Police by design look for anything suspect.

M.

I don't like that idea. I shouldn't have to sacrifice my privacy for bogus security.

[Lord Xeb]

Actually the reason for searching the lappies is because a terroriest by the name of Josef used his laptop to hid stuff for making bobs and stuff. Also, a laptop can be make into a bomb. It isn't that hard *rambles on then gets tired and asplodes on into confetti*

[LaRoza]

I was commenting on "encryption" specifically. Police by design look for anything suspect.

M.

No, police by design look for weapons, and specific objects.

Also, it isn't police, so the search rules are different.

[LaRoza]

Actually the reason for searching the lappies is because a terroriest by the name of Josef used his laptop to hid stuff for making bobs and stuff. Also, a laptop can be make into a bomb. It isn't that hard *rambles on then gets tired and asplodes on into confetti*

Bob is evil?

[SuperSonic4]

Then don't use those services.

It is not a right, it is a service. If you don't agree to the terms of use, don't use it.

Not to mention it will keep your carbon footprint down

[mike1234]

No, police by design look for weapons, and specific objects.

Also, it isn't police, so the search rules are different.

You say Tomato. A cop is a cop. Several members of my Family are cops. My Dad was Military Police, my brother is a cop, my nephew is a cop. And I do PC repair for local police department. Trust me, I know cops. Regardless of their uniform. :)

M.

[LaRoza]

You say Tomato. A cop is a cop. Several members of my Family are cops. And I do PC repair for local police department. Trust me, I know cops. Regardless of their uniform. :)

M.

But cops aren't border guards or the TSA.

[mike1234]

But cops aren't border guards or the TSA.


Okay, lets call them people with guns and badges, who can arrest or kill you. Hows that? :)

M.

[LaRoza]

Okay, lets call them people with guns and badges, who can arrest or kill you. Hows that? :)

M.

Very, very, very vague.

A police officer is a distinct role in the USA. It would be like classifying medical assistants and surgeons as the same.

[EdThaSlayer]

It seems the time is ripe for hardware companies to come out with their 500 gb flash drive. Now, we have to smuggle our own legitimate data over the borders of the USA. Glad I'm not going to go to the USA that is presently lacking in liberty, something it prides itself on.

[LaRoza]

It seems the time is ripe for hardware companies to come out with their 500 gb flash drive. Now, we have to smuggle our own legitimate data over the borders of the USA. Glad I'm not going to go to the USA that is presently lacking in liberty, something it prides itself on.

What? It isn't about data, it is about "real computer" or "disguised smuggling/explosive device". They don't care about the data.

[Sephoroth]

So now all someone needs to do is make a bomb that can run Windows XD?

[VorDesigns]

My plan is to travel with the drive retaining screws removed; if they want the latpop, they can have the drive.

[Sephoroth]

Taking a laptop with a startup script that will corrupt the installation (and then blaming them for doing it) would be interesting....

[LaRoza]

Taking a laptop with a startup script that will corrupt the installation (and then blaming them for doing it) would be interesting....

Fraud is an ugly thing ;)

The title "Traveler's Laptops May Be Detained at Border", makes me ask the question if laptops have rights and if they will be treated well.

[solitaire]

@ LaRoza

It's not 'just' about if the machine works. There has been a few instances where a innocent traveller has had his machine confiscated after showing the Border agents that it's a normal laptop all the way to people being 'Refused' entry after refusing to hand over their laptop for further examination (again after showin the guard it was a working laptop.)

People who's laptop were taken (again after turning it on for the Border Agents) have found out that it takes Months, if not years, to get their laptops back (if ever!) This can be a real problem if the traveller is carrying sensitive corporate data or legal information.

U.S. Border guards have virtually limitles powers when it comes to a travellers electronic equipment.

A few stories and news items relating to US Border Guards and Laptops...

http://search.theregister.co.uk/?q=US+border+laptop

[Spike-X]

A plane: A large, explosive flying vehicle that can be controlled and often carry many people. There is a reason why terrorists find them attractive ;)

And what are TEH TERR'ISTS going to do with a bottle of water? Drown the pilot and take over the plane?

I'm not saying no security precautions should be taken. I'm saying that many of the ones being taken are simply a fearful, knee-jerk reaction (that is to say, giving in to terror) that have no meaningful security aspect to them.

[Spike-X]

Then don't use those services.

It is not a right, it is a service. If you don't agree to the terms of use, don't use it.

No worries.

I'll just swim to the US if I ever decide to visit, will I?

[Spike-X]

Better than fireballs that are real ;)

It is easy to dismiss things as not working, and hard to prove they are, however, one can say since these measures have been implemented, even the silly ones, nothing has happened, they have "worked".

I have this rock that fends off tigers. No, really. Since I've had this rock, I haven't been attacked by a single tiger.

And you can have one just like it for only $99.95!

[Spike-X]

So now all someone needs to do is make a bomb that can run Windows XD?
XD? Xplosive Device?

I wouldn't want a bomb that runs on Windows, anyway. It'd probably crash at the crucial moment, and end up with a Blue Screen Of No-Death.

[t0p]

No worries.

I'll just swim to the US if I ever decide to visit, will I?

If you swam to the USA, the coatguard would probably intercept you en route and cavity-search you before you reached the beach!

Seriously though, if you decide to go to America you're gonna have to submit to their paranoid "security" laws. You don't have any sort of right to enter the USA if you're not a US citizen. And if you don't like their crazy-assed laws, don't go there. I doubt the US government will lose any sleep if you or I decide to holiday somewhere else.

[t0p]

I was commenting on "encryption" specifically. Police by design look for anything suspect. And not everyone is into porn. Anyone who believes the Government isn't making a record of seized Data, is terribly naive. If you make a copy of a DVD movie you purchased, for example, just for safekeeping and watch only the copy, you are guilty of being in possession of "counterfeit" movies. That's how they see it. Black and White.


On a related subject: in the UK, police powers and those of the security services etc are governed by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA).

Let's say you have some encrypted files on your computer. If the police are investigating you for some reason, and they seize your computer, they will demand that you supply the passwords/keys. If you refuse to comply, you can get up to 2 years imprisonment.

Pretty dumb law if you ask me. If you're a crook, and the encrypted files contain crooked material, you just need to decide if the contents would earn you more than 2 years in prison. If it's some major evil stuff, you just flip the Man the finger and go away for 2 years. If it's just some petty garbage, give 'em the password and get your 50 hours community service.

Also, some encryption software such as Truecrypt offer a facility where you have hidden files in an encrypted directory. So it can contain, for example, 2 files: legalcontent.txt and illegalcontent.txt. There are 2 passwords: type in one and legalcontent.txt is opened; type in the other and illegalcontent.txt is opened. And, as far as anyone else can tell, there is only that one file in the directory.

There are many ways to get round technology-related laws. Technology constantly advances, evolves, improves. The law is constantly lagging behind.

[lukjad]

Luckily it's only the US, that country has become like KGB run Soviet Union in the last few years.

One of the worst places to live in the western world.
I heard that it also happens in the EU.

[kevdog]

What if you are carrying someone other person's laptop or legitamately forgot the password for the decryption? What if there are multiple users on the computer with various gpg encryption keys used and you can only decrypt your own gpg encrypted files, but not the other users? I highly doubt an automatic 2 year imprisonment in these cases

[zmjjmz]

A recent ruling in the US allows you to plead the 5th amendment to that.

[Eniak]

Once when traveling from Italy to Brazil, I had to boot my laptop to show them it was not new (yeah I didnt get its point either)... No security/paranoid/terrorism issues, just greedy taxes stuff... Open my laptop case and boot it up to show it's not a bomb is ok for me... Now, having to show them my data or giving them my laptop/hd so they can do godknows with it... f**k off... with all my respect for the U.S. people, for me the US gov is using fear to crush and erase all the remaining freedom people have, and it's just a matter of time so it will start happenin in another countries.

I have relatives in the US, and after I'm done with my university probably some oportunities there might appear... I don't say I'll never go there again cuz it's a very nice place with lots of really good people, but honestly I avoid going back there as much as I can... and if someday I'd return I'd just let all my electronic stuff at home to avoid problems (yeah it would b a sooo boring flight)... and If I'd need some sort of data for any job stuff or something like that, I'd just upload'em to some server and download'em once I arrive from any of my relatives's pcs... and I'm sure it is what any brained terrorist/pirate/pedophile would do... So, yeah, for me those laws are useless.

[zmjjmz]

and If I'd need some sort of data for any job stuff or something like that, I'd just upload'em to some server and download'em once I arrive from any of my relatives's pcs... and I'm sure it is what any brained terrorist/pirate/pedophile would do... So, yeah, for me those laws are useless.

Yeah, exactly. That's why it's a load of ****.
The only way for it to be effective would be the US monitoring all international data transfers, which could violate laws in several other countries and fragment the internet.

[LaRoza]

And what are TEH TERR'ISTS going to do with a bottle of water? Drown the pilot and take over the plane?

Obviously, you don't recognize that many explosives are in liquid form...



I'm not saying no security precautions should be taken. I'm saying that many of the ones being taken are simply a fearful, knee-jerk reaction (that is to say, giving in to terror) that have no meaningful security aspect to them.
Possibly (I haven't really looked into it or traveled at all) but in time they will be more sane.



I'll just swim to the US if I ever decide to visit, will I?

You can, if you want. Although I don't know why you would want to come here (and I don't know why we'd want you here ;))


I have this rock that fends off tigers. No, really. Since I've had this rock, I haven't been attacked by a single tiger.

And you can have one just like it for only $99.95!

Were you attacked by a tiger before you had the rock?

[zmjjmz]

Obviously, you don't recognize that many explosives are in liquid form...
And many explosives are in a lot of other forms, and/or can be constructed using items that would normally be allowable on a plane. Maybe we should prevent people from carrying anything on a plane?
Oh, and you can kill people with your hands too. Should we cuff everyone's hands on a flight?
Actually, a good strategy would be to put everyone to sleep before we get on a plane.
That way you're out throughout the flight, and it would be a truly pleasant experience.

[LaRoza]

And many explosives are in a lot of other forms, and/or can be constructed using items that would normally be allowable on a plane. Maybe we should prevent people from carrying anything on a plane?
Oh, and you can kill people with your hands too. Should we cuff everyone's hands on a flight?
Actually, a good strategy would be to put everyone to sleep before we get on a plane.
That way your out throughout the flight, and it would be a truly pleasant experience.

In theory, perhaps. In practice, it isn't so.

All of the focus is on things that have happened before. Bladed objects, liquid explosives, things disguised as electronics, etc.

The "bad guys" are clever. The "bad guys" are willing to kill themselves and anyone for their beliefs (whatever they are...).

To give you the type of person they are dealing with... In Israel, a suicide bomber turned herself in and didn't do the dead. Why? Because she didn't want to wear "western" clothes to blend in. Not because she didn't want to kill herself and random civilians minding their own business.

[zmjjmz]

All of the focus is on things that have happened before. Bladed objects, liquid explosives, things disguised as electronics, etc.

Well that's dumb. There will usually be other ways.
Anyways, the whole thing about liquid explosives on a plane is speculation. They found them guilty of trying to kill some guys with liquid bombs, but the police could only speculate that they were to do it on a plane.


The "bad guys" are clever. The "bad guys" are willing to kill themselves and anyone for their beliefs (whatever they are...).

To give you the type of person they are dealing with... In Israel, a suicide bomber turned herself in and didn't do the dead. Why? Because she didn't want to wear "western" clothes to blend in. Not because she didn't want to kill herself and random civilians minding their own business.
Ok then, we should enforce putting crazy people in the nut house.

[karnak]

this is communism, they are already checking emails for keywords...

[LaRoza]

Ok then, we should enforce putting crazy people in the nut house.

Yet, when the USA tries to oust such regimes, they are critisized.

[zmjjmz]

this is communism, they are already checking emails for keywords...

No, this isn't communism.
This is an invasion of privacy. Not communism.
EDIT: LaRoza: Because we do so by sending a sh*tload of troops in, spending billions of dollars, and bombing the crap out of civilians, without permission from the UN.

[LaRoza]

EDIT: LaRoza: Because we do so by sending a sh*tload of troops in, spending billions of dollars, and bombing the crap out of civilians, without permission from the UN.

The same UN which condemns Israel 9 times, yet is "concerned" about Sudan.

This is a new kind of war. Read up on WWII, then say they are bombing civilians. Also, what is the difference between a terrorist and a civilian? These people with the bomb vets, explosive trucks, and RPG's are wearing the same thing everyone else is wearing.

[zmjjmz]

The same UN which condemns Israel 9 times, yet is "concerned" about Sudan.
It is also the same UN that is comprised of several large countries, many of them with nukes and a lot of them we owe debt to.


This is a new kind of war. Read up on WWII, then say they are bombing civilians.

Not sure what you mean by that, but we bombed the sh*t out of civilians in WWII.

Also, what is the difference between a terrorist and a civilian?
Not all civilians are terrorists, but many terrorists are civilians.

[blakjesus]

...In Israel, a suicide bomber turned herself in and didn't do the dead. Why? Because she didn't want to wear "western" clothes to blend in. Not because she didn't want to kill herself and random civilians minding their own business.

:shock:


this is communism, they are already checking emails for keywords...

No, not communism. Communism (among other things) is about state property. This is more closely related to (but not completely) Fascism.

It seems the more time goes by, the fewer freedoms people in the USA retain.

Im sure alot of you are familiar with this quote so i appologize in advance, but in the words of Benjamin Franklin:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Prefix100]

This is a new kind of war. Read up on WWII, then say they are bombing civilians. Also, what is the difference between a terrorist and a civilian? These people with the bomb vets, explosive trucks, and RPG's are wearing the same thing everyone else is wearing.

This really made me rage LaRoza.

The difference is, that a terrorist is guilty of trying to kill others and cause terror. A civilian is an innocent.

If you truly think that all civilians in the middle east should be killed so that most of the terrorists will be killed too, then you can pull the trigger.

What you have said is that the bombing of civilians is justified, it is NEVER justified, and whether it was done in WW2 or not is irrelevant, because this is a very different war.

[LaRoza]

This really made me rage LaRoza.

The difference is, that a terrorist is guilty of trying to kill others and cause terror. A civilian is an innocent.

If you truly think that all civilians in the middle east should be killed so that most of the terrorists will be killed too, then you can pull the trigger.


Sorry. I didn't mean it at all like that. I should have said "How can you tell the difference between a terrorist and a civilian?"

My point was that terrorists live, act and dress like civilians, and they are the ones targetted. The allied troops not only have to distinguish the differences, but be nice to those that are not terrorists.

[zmjjmz]

My point was that terrorists live, act and dress like civilians, and they are the ones targetted. The allied troops not only have to distinguish the differences, but be nice to those that are not terrorists.
But how is that any different from any criminal investigation?
Maybe we should send the FBI over there.

[LaRoza]

But how is that any different from any criminal investigation?
Maybe we should send the FBI over there.

No. That isn't their job.

This is international. The FBI works (hopefully) with other governments in dealing with information and they arrest and investigate in the USA.

[mips]

No. That isn't their job.

This is international. The FBI works (hopefully) with other governments in dealing with information and they arrest and investigate in the USA.

Not according to hollywood. According to them the FBI just walks into a country, shows their badges and start barking orders to the useless locals ;)

[lukjad]

Not according to hollywood. According to them the FBI just walks into a country, shows their badges and start barking orders to the useless locals ;)
No, that be th' NSA and CIA. Th' FBI arr just bodyguards.

[LaRoza]

Not according to hollywood. According to them the FBI just walks into a country, shows their badges and start barking orders to the useless locals ;)

The FBI does that to local police in the USA (in fact, there is a joke based on truth that the FBI doesn't actually do anything. Anything they succeed in doing was actually done by a local police officer or anyone else but an FBI agent and they take credit for it)

I never saw a movie in which the FBI had authority like that in other countries. The few movies that leap to mind were joint operations and the FBI didn't do that.

[solitaire]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/23/expanded_border_search_authority/




EFF reveals vastly expanded search policy at US borders

In a move that could affect millions of people around the world, the US government has quietly relaxed a two-decade-old policy that limited the reading and copying of papers and electronic data carried by travelers crossing into American borders, according to recently released documents.
Under guidelines that were most recently revised last year, agents with the Customs and Border Protection (CPB) were given the power to "review and analyze" material even when there is no suspicion they will reveal violations of an agency rule.
What's more, the new rules gave agents the authority to copy papers, laptop computers, cell phones, and other electronic devices and store them for a "reasonable period of time." Agents need not have any suspicion of wrongdoing.
The new policy represents a vast expansion of the powers afforded to border agents screening travelers. Under the previous guidelines, which went into effect in 1986, agents had to have "reasonable suspicion" to review travelers' documents and could copy materials only when they had "probable cause."
The documents were unearthed through a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Asian Law Caucus seeking records detailing the inspection methods applied to people entering the United States (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/08/eff_alc_sues_homeland_security/).
The civil liberties groups filed the complaint after their request for the information was rebuffed by officials with the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), which has oversight over the CPB.
In July, the DHS announced new guidelines (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/01/us_customs_laptop_seizures/) that allowed border agents to copy documents, books, and data on electronic devices. Left out of the disclosure was how much of a departure this policy was from its previous one. For more than 20 years, border agents were required to have probable cause. Over a period of about a year beginning in 2006, all of that was undone.

[lukjad]

The FBI does that to local police in the USA (in fact, there is a joke based on truth that the FBI doesn't actually do anything. Anything they succeed in doing was actually done by a local police officer or anyone else but an FBI agent and they take credit for it)

I never saw a movie in which the FBI had authority like that in other countries. The few movies that leap to mind were joint operations and the FBI didn't do that.
I read o' one where they had an retired FBI agent runnin' around blowin' up buildings in Vancouver. :P

[LaRoza]

I read o' one where they had an retired FBI agent runnin' around blowin' up buildings in Vancouver. :P

Speak clearly.

[lukjad]

I be a pyrate!

[LaRoza]

I be a pyrate!

Pirates don't speak like that.

[lukjad]

I don't care. ARRR!

[Sephoroth]

Pirates don't speak like that.

That's what SHE said.

[lukjad]

So? I be a pyrate an' I don't be afeared o' no Borg!

[Tristam Green]

ugh, less derail please.

Yes, this is assuredly bad news. This isn't fascism, communism, totalitarianism, or anything of the like.

If it were fascism, there would be posters up reading "OFFER UP YOUR NOTEBOOKS, O AMERICAN BRETHREN"
If it were communism, the guards would be taking the laptops along with two-thirds of the laptop owner's monetary worth, and "redistributing it".
If it were totalitarianism, they'd take the laptop and issue a state-ordained beating while doing it.

It's wrong, yes. It's probably illegal, and it doesn't make it perfectly legal just because the nth Circuit Court of San Francisco (why is S.F. always involved in these ridiculous cases?) upholds it.

I question the constitutionality of this based on a profiling standpoint.

"Not all laptop users are blackhats."

[PotatoStew]

Offer up your notebooks, o american brethren!

[Sephoroth]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4257/sharpedgesfw5.jpg

[Eniak]

Today I went help a friend to install ubuntu on his laptop ( one more converted soul! :guitar: )... He's from Egypt and his wallpaper on XP was a picture of Meka... I was just wondering what would b the reaction of the us border agents if they check his laptop...

[LaRoza]

Today I went help a friend to install ubuntu on his laptop ( one more converted soul! :guitar: )... He's from Egypt and his wallpaper on XP was a picture of Meka... I was just wondering what would b the reaction of the us border agents if they check his laptop...

Probably nothing. If he's from Egypt, they will likely be able to tell by the way he looks, if not, by his information. Having a wall paper isn't going to change that.

The guards aren't allowed to "profile" for some reason, so it won't matter at all.