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days_of_ruin
July 26th, 2008, 11:44 PM
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/26/1827208

Lol, I hope no one actually does that.

Polygon
July 26th, 2008, 11:56 PM
wow, so instead of actually doing something they are acting like children and taking away the genius bar people's time that could be better spent helping people who really do have problems with their macs/ipods

here is a hint FSF: the ipod is the most popular mp3 player....taking up time at a genius bar isnt going to change things...normal people dont care about the DRM on their ipod, they want to listen to mp3s. and if you want to get the word about about apple's DRM stuff, then doing this isnt going to help, it's just going to make people hate the FSF

TBOL3
July 26th, 2008, 11:57 PM
Just when i thought the FSF could sink no lower.

LookTJ
July 26th, 2008, 11:58 PM
DoS, you are taking that literally? would it be
'denial of service'if it was literal? I don't think they would actually DoS anyone. but just telling people about the bad things about Apple's products.

my opinion.

**ignore**

TBOL3
July 27th, 2008, 12:02 AM
Hay the DoS the people from the Linux Action Show. Probibly because they call it linux, and not GNU/Linux. I don't mind if the DoS anyone who is not paying, yes, it's rude, but not wrong. But tying up other service, now that's bad.

perce
July 27th, 2008, 12:17 AM
This is the actual page from defectivebydesign.org:

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/apple-challenge

They raise valid points, but annoying Apple support people is useless. It would be more important to inform possible iphone buyers.

Polygon
July 27th, 2008, 12:33 AM
they have good points, but annoying regular people who most likely dont care about the restrictions apple has on their stuff are just gonna get pissed that some person is taking up the genius bar guy's time. that is if he doesn't get escorted out by security.

tubezninja
July 27th, 2008, 12:36 AM
DoS, you are taking that literally? would it be if it was literal? I don't think they would actually DoS anyone. but just telling people about the bad things about Apple's products.

It's not even telling people about Apple's products. It's simply being a nuisance. A n Apple genius knows their products, the features and their limitations. They don't need someone with a misplaced sense of self-righteousness to waste their time.

And have you seen the questionnaire (http://static.fsf.org/dbd/iphone-action-handout.pdf)? Here's a quote:


3. The iPhone 3G has GPS support. How can users be sure that the GPS
cannot be used to track their position, without their permission?

When the only thing preventing the GPS from being used is software, and
the software in question is known only to Apple, why should users of the
iPhone trust Apple?

(a) Did the Genius understand why GPS in a device is an issue?
(b) Did the Genius understand why the fact that the iPhone is proprietary
is an issue here?
(c) Did the Genius express any kind of apology for this behavior?

Apology for what? The genius didn't design the phone. He or she is just a drone earning a paycheck. Hardly the person who can make any apology for the perceived misdeeds of a corporation in which they're the low guy on the totem pole.

I'm sorry, but while there might be SOME valid points made by FSF, the message is lost by this action. They're essentially trolling.

And if I were an Apple genius, the only apology I'd offer is "I'm sorry you don't know how to effectively promote the FOSS movement without creating a great deal of ill will." And promptly call security.

bp1509
July 27th, 2008, 01:22 AM
While I'm no where near as hardcore as the FSF, i support them fully. Tale that as you will. I have a personal hatred towards mac stores and Genuis bars anyways.

I applied there after a company I was working for folder and went in to get some extra money and applied for the Genius position just so some moron in a t-shirt could to me.. someone with 4 years of college, Linux+ certification, MCSE certification, 1 year of owning a mac, A+ certified and 3 years in enterprise level support for win/mac/lin OSes, 4-5 years experience in retail, and they told me I wasn't qualified to be a "Mac Genius" but I could be a wussy salesman in their "artsy" little turtlenecks for $8/hour. They can suck a fat one.

Want to couple this with their DRM scheme with iTunes/iPod, their teaming up with Constitutional violating criminals like AT&T for the iPhone... ya. I go to bed every night praying that all their board members end up in mud huts in 3rd world nations.

spoons
July 27th, 2008, 01:50 AM
It's fair payback after those Mac ads which lied about the PC imo.

TBOL3
July 27th, 2008, 01:58 AM
It's fair payback after those Mac ads which lied about the PC imo.

Na, blame steve for that. Apple's ads always sucked. They can never say what there good at, only at what other's suck at (look at every apple ad, I've never seen a good one that promotes their stuff instead of degrading others). The Geniuses are only people trying to earn a buck.

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 02:00 AM
Well done FSF, just when I thought I couldn't possibly hate your whiney, childish, ignorant, idiotic ways any more than I already do, you go and do this.

Congratulations. A new low.

mthei
July 27th, 2008, 02:09 AM
Sad.

bp1509
July 27th, 2008, 03:12 AM
Well done FSF, just when I thought I couldn't possibly hate your whiney, childish, ignorant, idiotic ways any more than I already do, you go and do this.

Congratulations. A new low.

Hey if you hate em so much, quit using software with that beautiful license they're responsible for.

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 03:16 AM
Hey if you hate em so much, quit using software with that beautiful license they're responsible for.

I use this software because I don't have to pay for it.

I care nothing for their license and their ideals. Stunts like this make me care even less. :)

Yes
July 27th, 2008, 03:22 AM
It's unfortunate what they've become, considering all the great contributions they've made.

Dr. C
July 27th, 2008, 03:22 AM
Or may be the FSF has come to the realization that Apple is in many respects far more evil the dare we say Microsoft?

Would the response had been the same if the FSF had targeted Microsoft and not Apple in a similar fashion? Before we answer this question lets take a look at our own community. The moderators have found a need to put the disclaimer:
Please do not use this as a bashing area. in the Windows forum but not in the Mac OS forum. Why? How many times do we see Microsoft spelled Micro$oft (dollar sign instead of s) but do we see Apple spelled Appl€ (euro sign instead of e) at all?

Apple has had very much of a free ride from the Free Software and Open Source communities even though it is far more locked down propriety and closed than even Microsoft. So it is about time that the FSF targeted Apple or dare we say Appl€

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 03:24 AM
Or may be the FSF has come to the realization that Apple is in many respects far more evil the dare we say Microsoft?

Would the response had been the same if the FSF had targeted Microsoft and not Apple in a similar fashion? Before we answer this question lets take a look at our own community. The moderators have found a need to put the disclaimer: in the Windows forum but not in the Mac OS forum. Why? How many times do we see Microsoft spelled Micro$oft (dollar sign instead of s) but do we see Apple spelled Appl€ (euro sign instead of e) at all?

Apple has had very much of a free ride from the Free Software and Open Source communities even though it is far more locked down propriety and closed than even Microsoft. So it is about time that the FSF targeted Apple or dare we say Appl€

You realise spelling it "Micro$oft" basically makes you look like a fool?

Why do the FSF feel the need to target anyone? Free software exists. If people want to use it they will. People don't want to be preached to and we don't want to continually hear about how companies like Microsoft are trying to take over the world.

Yes
July 27th, 2008, 03:29 AM
It doesn't matter who they're targeting, what the FSF is doing to Apple is just childish.

I do feel that some of Apple and Microsoft's practices are wrong, and I would be fine if the FSF tried bringing attention to the matter, but I really wish they would be more mature about it.

Dr. C
July 27th, 2008, 03:41 AM
You realise spelling it "Micro$oft" basically makes you look like a fool?

Why do the FSF feel the need to target anyone? Free software exists. If people want to use it they will. People don't want to be preached to and we don't want to continually hear about how companies like Microsoft are trying to take over the world.

There is very much a double standard here and the prevalence of the foolish spelling Micro$oft over the equally foolish spelling Appl€ is indicative of that. If one is promoting Free Software it is fair to target a platform that does not allow the running of Free Software such as the iPhone, since iPhone users do not have the option of running Free Software on their devices even if they wanted to.

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 03:44 AM
There is very much a double standard here and the prevalence of the foolish spelling Micro$oft over the equally foolish spelling Appl€ is indicative of that. If one is promoting Free Software it is fair to target a platform that does not allow the running of Free Software such as the iPhone, since iPhone users do not have the option of running Free Software on their devices even if they wanted to.

Right, so Microsoft / Apple are against free software.

Does that mean they can actively "target" free software, such as ubuntu?

You know, they could get all microsoft employees to simultaneously phone the ubuntu support lines. Or perhaps get every system under their control to download ubuntu files at the same time?

Can you imagine the whole "hoo hah" that would start if such a thing happened?

It stinks of hypocrisy from a now defunct organisation (the FSF).

Dr. C
July 27th, 2008, 03:55 AM
Right, so Microsoft / Apple are against free software.

Does that mean they can actively "target" free software, such as ubuntu?

You know, they could get all microsoft employees to simultaneously phone the ubuntu support lines. Or perhaps get every system under their control to download ubuntu files at the same time?

Can you imagine the whole "hoo hah" that would start if such a thing happened?

It stinks of hypocrisy from a now defunct organisation (the FSF).

They do. Here is an example from Microsoft: http://iowa.gotthefacts.org/011607/3000/PX03020.pdf

As for Apple simply prevent Free Software from running on the platform period.

TBOL3
July 27th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Hey if you hate em so much, quit using software with that beautiful license they're responsible for.

I agree with the GPLv2. But I disagree with this behavior. Also, only noobs and idiots use the dollar sign. Next, MS bashing, and linux bashing, albeit fun, is only fun when it's done in a sarcastic way. When one is seriously bashing someone for something as dumb as it's not free, that is pathetic. And when I say bashing, that is not providing good reasons why you dislike it, but bashing is just saying it sux, and anyone who uses it sux.

However, as it is, I do hate windows. But that's just because it does not work for me. I also dislike apple for the way the combine hardware and software (and refuse to let anyone who buys a copy of OSX use it on anything but their holy computers.

articpenguin
July 27th, 2008, 04:42 AM
Im ******* sick of richard stallman. He always repeats himself. Closed source keeps users divided and helpless.

Canis familiaris
July 27th, 2008, 06:14 AM
FSF is as bad as Microsoft. Maybe even worse.

RiceMonster
July 27th, 2008, 06:31 AM
There is very much a double standard here and the prevalence of the foolish spelling Micro$oft over the equally foolish spelling Appl€ is indicative of that. If one is promoting Free Software it is fair to target a platform that does not allow the running of Free Software such as the iPhone, since iPhone users do not have the option of running Free Software on their devices even if they wanted to.

While I don't like that policy either, it doesn't give the FSF the right to preach at people who simply work for Apple and who have no control over such things. The FSF is just making themselves look childish, regardless of whether they have time. Leave them alone, let them have their paycheck, and try to take that up with the people who made those decisions if it's so damn important to you.

I think sometimes the FSF needs to remember that it's also the right for the developer not to release the source code of his or her software. Do I think OSS is a better model? Yes. Does that mean I think that proprietary software should be rid of? No. They both have their place.

samjh
July 27th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Very immature.

While I have great respect for their contributions, this kind of "campaign" discredits them to the point of embarrasment.

If they have a beef with Apple, they should fight them in the marketing and technical fronts, not by being a nuisance to customers, or to Apple staff who are trying to earn their daily bread.

original_jamingrit
July 27th, 2008, 09:12 AM
I do tire of the FSF sometimes, they aren't what they used to be. I don't know what it is that made them feel so jaded, because instead of promoting free software, most of the resources tend to go towards "anti-marketing", antics like this latest one.

There's tons of people that could be reached. But the FSF are sending the wrong message. Granted, a lot of their resources go towards upkeep of free software services and support, although they are very particular about who and what they openly support. Too much of their time and resources, however, go towards trying to be negative. They want to change the status quo, but they're doing it the wrong way.

They really should focus more on promotion and dissemination of free software and free culture. Instead of cracking on Apple, try to speak up for the many services and folks that intend to serve non-proprietary DRM'less software and media. LegalTorrents (http://beta.legaltorrents.com/), for example, is a great concept, but there's not enough interest, and not enough content, although I know for sure that there could be tons more stuff for it. Netlabel Artists such as Brad Sucks (http://www.bradsucks.net/) and the Hamster Alliance (http://www.hamsteralliance.com/) need more exposure. And institutions such as the united state's Library of Congress hosts lot's of public domain stuff. I'm not big on American History, but I loved listening to the Woody Guthrie Library of Congress Records (http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3346572/Woody_Guthrie_-_Library_Of_Congress_Recordings_(1992)__3_CD_s%5D) .

I say again, I know they do a lot to actively support/fund lots of projects. But they need to speak up more for encouraging non-proprietary rather than discouraging proprietary. It's much more difficult to feel disagreeable with such a stance. Linus Torvalds was once quoted as saying "We're not out to destroy Microsoft, that will just be a unintentional side-effect". It's this kind of laissez faire attitude that benefits growth in a free project. Spend too much time demonizing the other side, and you lose that sort of growth.

[/rant]

Canis familiaris
July 27th, 2008, 09:17 AM
FSF has nothing to do with open source in my book.

samjh
July 27th, 2008, 11:03 AM
FSF has nothing to do with open source in my book.

Unfortunately they tend to advertise themselves as open-source champions, and are regarded as such by the IT industry at large.

They are indeed very influential in the open-source community, which is why antics like the one pointed out by the OP is so degrading.

perce
July 27th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Unfortunately they tend to advertise themselves as open-source champions, and are regarded as such by the IT industry at large.


No, they advertise themselves as free-software champions:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

eragon100
July 27th, 2008, 01:57 PM
What a morons, does RMS come from mongolia or something?? :mad:

ice60
July 27th, 2008, 02:04 PM
i would have liked to have gone to one of the apple stores and given all the fsf drips a hard time, i don't like them anyway.

bobbob94
July 27th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Clogging up apple stores' help desks seems not the best idea for taking action, but i don't think it invalidates the good points the fsf makes about other issues like drm, open document formats, the dmca act etc...while i'm not sure how effective the fsf has been in its campaigning, these are important points that deserve discussion...

perce
July 27th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Clogging up apple stores' help desks seems not the best idea for taking action, but i don't think it invalidates the good points the fsf makes about other issues like drm, open document formats, the dmca act etc...while i'm not sure how effective the fsf has been in its campaigning, these are important points that deserve discussion...

+1

I don't agree with everything the FSF says, but I'm really shocked by the amount of resentment against them the Ubuntu forums are showing in the last weeks. They do rise valid points about software freedom, DRM, locked platforms (the iphone beiung only one example) and I think those issues will be more and more crucial for our society in the future.

In particular, it is a fact that Apple wants to control what kind of software is run on the iphone, it is a fact that in many countries Apple wants to decide what wireless provider you use on the iphone, it is a fact that iphone contracts are more expensive (because Apple gets a share on them?). It is also a fact that DRM is very likely to restrict fair use rights of customers. Is all that worth a multi-touch screen?

If we don't fight for our right we'll end up being abused by greedy corporations. This genius campaign is stupid and I wouldn't spend a second of my time on it, however bashing the FSF as a whole will lead us nowhere.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 03:10 PM
I don't agree with everything the FSF says, but I'm really shocked by the amount of resentment against them the Ubuntu forums are showing in the last weeks.
Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?

But it's not only the amount of resentment that's amazing, but also the way it is expressed. People whine about and bash the FSF with a zeal and hatred that's rather breathtaking. Add to this the fact that most of those bashing the FSF don't seem to have the slightest clue what they are talking about (for example, not knowing the difference between open source and free software) and you really have to wonder what kind of users ubuntu or rather these forums attract.

Especially considering that they don't seem to have a problem to rely on free software while at the same time insulting those who provided it form them.

About the issue at hand, I agree with you. I think the FSF raises valid points, however I have serious doubts that this is the best way to express these points.

ice60
July 27th, 2008, 03:27 PM
Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?

But it's not only the amount of resentment that's amazing, but also the way it is expressed. People whine about and bash the FSF with a zeal and hatred that's rather breathtaking. Add to this the fact that most of those bashing the FSF don't seem to have the slightest clue what they are talking about (for example, not knowing the difference between open source and free software) and you really have to wonder what kind of users ubuntu or rather these forums attract.

Especially considering that they don't seem to have a problem to rely on free software while at the same time insulting those who provided it form them.

About the issue at hand, I agree with you. I think the FSF raises valid points, however I have serious doubts that this is the best way to express these points.
i think the point is most people do know the difference between open source and the fsf and that's why a lot of people dislike them with a passion.

i have no problem using software licenced by them. it would be like someone you don't like copying a Ferrari and improving on it, then giving it to you, i have no problem letting them do the work and giving it away for free (as in money, the only free i care about because the other one is wrong)

perce
July 27th, 2008, 03:34 PM
the other one is wrong

What's wrong on being in full control of your computer? in sharing knowledge? in not being locked into a vendor?

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 03:40 PM
i think the point is most people do know the difference between open source and the fsf and that's why a lot of people dislike them with a passion.

That's not the impression I get when reading threats like this one.
But if you do know the difference, why hate them with a passion? Don't get me wrong, you don't have to agree with them, but why not simply disagree, but hate them? Aren't people like you always accusing the FSF of being zealots? Isn't hating someone with a passion for having a different oppinion a sure sign that you are a zealot?



i have no problem using software licenced by them.

It may use a liscence developed by them, but it isn't liscenced by them.
However, that was not my point. My point was that a lot of the software you are using on a Ubuntu system is in fact written by the free software movement or by free software advocates. Just look at all the GNU software you are using.



it would be like someone you don't like copying a Ferrari and improving on it, then giving it to you, i have no problem letting them do the work and giving it away for free (as in money, the only free i care about because the other one is wrong)
And don't get me wrong, but for me, taking something from someone you hate just because it's free and then to add insult too injury rail against, whine about, bash and insult this someone every chance you get, isn't particularly endearing imho.

tubezninja
July 27th, 2008, 04:00 PM
Clogging up apple stores' help desks seems not the best idea for taking action, but i don't think it invalidates the good points the fsf makes about other issues like drm, open document formats, the dmca act etc...while i'm not sure how effective the fsf has been in its campaigning, these are important points that deserve discussion...


Yes they do deserve discussion. In discussion boards, in conferences, podcasts, open venues sponsored by donors and where the public is welcome.

NOT in a support queue where people are trying to get their computers serviced, where self-appointed FSF representatives are holding up the line. That does nothing to advance their cause. All it does is aggravate the people in line and give those people the impression that whoever this "FSF" bunch of guys are, they're up to no good. It gives Apple less of a reason to open a dialog. And it gives the people working at the Genius bar less motivation to consider the the implications and issues surrounding FOSS, because they'll be more likely to equate it with some snarky bunch of people who's trolling and preventing them from doing their job.



As for Apple simply prevent Free Software from running on the platform period.

Do they?

People on this very forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=493393) would disagree with you. And I've used GIMP, ImageMagick, ffmpeg, lynx, nano, alpine, and a number of othe free tools on a Mac without issue.

Apple has contributed to free software as well. One of our projects at work hinges on on the use of free software that Apple developers have released, Darwin Streaming Server (http://developer.apple.com/opensource/server/streaming/index.html). And there's several other open source projects (http://developer.apple.com/opensource/) Apple is working on.

It seems to me that this stunt is a poorly engineered attempt at riding the coattails of the launch of a hyped up product. Not unlike when someone stands behind the camera in one of those live TV shots and makes a nuisance of themselves. I would hope the FSF wouldn't want to come off to people as appearing desperate, but that's exactly what they're doing.

ice60
July 27th, 2008, 04:01 PM
i just think free software and proprietary software should coexist and don't agree with the fsf when they think everything should be free. and i really don't like stallman, i disagree with everything he says, everything on this page -
http://www.stallman.org/

i know using linux doesn't mean you support the fsf, that's what i really think, i just made that Ferrari stuff up as i wrote it lol

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Do they?

Yes, they do. This is about the iphone, not Apple computers in general, so I don't see what your example have anything to do with the issue at hand.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 04:07 PM
i just think free software and proprietary software should coexist and don't agree with the fsf when they think everything should be free.

That's fine then, but that's a long way from hating them, isn't it?



and i really don't like stallman, i disagree with everything he says, everything on this page -
http://www.stallman.org/
Everything? So you are in favour of software patents and ever more restrictive DRM?

ice60
July 27th, 2008, 04:22 PM
i disagree with what the fsf stands for and disagree with about 95% of stallman's ideals. they get fairly political and i think the more people start to read about the fsf the more hate they'll receive. i don't hate them, but i wouldn't miss them if you all dropped dead :D

that's all i can say, it's what i believe and don't think there's much to argue about. i've always felt that way, but am a bit suprised how many seem to be turning against the fsf, in the past there were threads with everyone saying how much they loved stallman and fsf and i was the only one saying i disliked him and them lol

i'm going to watch the end of the tour of france! it's about to finish.

toupeiro
July 27th, 2008, 05:00 PM
This is an embarassment. When a group as big as the FSF behaves this way, it hurts everything affiliated with their cause. While I have no real love for Apple, to do what they are proposing is childish and petty. Restricting freedom with freedom preaching...


KNOCK IT OFF, FSF!

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 05:30 PM
Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?

But it's not only the amount of resentment that's amazing, but also the way it is expressed. People whine about and bash the FSF with a zeal and hatred that's rather breathtaking. Add to this the fact that most of those bashing the FSF don't seem to have the slightest clue what they are talking about (for example, not knowing the difference between open source and free software) and you really have to wonder what kind of users ubuntu or rather these forums attract.

Especially considering that they don't seem to have a problem to rely on free software while at the same time insulting those who provided it form them.

About the issue at hand, I agree with you. I think the FSF raises valid points, however I have serious doubts that this is the best way to express these points.


:rolleyes:

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 05:31 PM
That's fine then, but that's a long way from hating them, isn't it?


Everything? So you are in favour of software patents and ever more restrictive DRM?

why do you seem shocked?

original_jamingrit
July 27th, 2008, 05:40 PM
The DRM advocates and the pirates are fighting a childish war, and the only way to one-up the other is an even more childish move. The FSF doesn't care about what the pirates are doing, they're just there to try and stop DRM as a reaction to the piracy. What they should be doing is putting down both, and trying to promote Free alternatives. Because the piracy is wrong, DRM is wrong. As long as either side exists, we cannot make a move to a software ecosystem where the copyleft is the rule instead of the exception. Because you can neither pirate or DRM that which is free.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 05:52 PM
why do you seem shocked?
I'm not.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 05:53 PM
:rolleyes:
:popcorn:
:-({|=\\:D/

Gee, that's fun...

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I'm not.

Glad to hear it.

Personally, I don't care about DRM. I see it that companies have the right to protect the software they create however they want. It's theirs, they can do what they want with it.

If people don't like DRM then don't buy DRM software. Simple really.

Do we really need an organisation preaching to us about how DRM is the spawn of satan? I just wish the FSF would wise up and even better, stop these little "campaigns" they waste our time with.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 06:00 PM
Personally, I don't care about DRM. I see it that companies have the right to protect the software they create however they want. It's theirs, they can do what they want with it.

Well DRM isn't really about protecting software, so I don't know what your point is.
And how is it theirs after I bought something?



Do we really need an organisation preaching to us about how DRM is the spawn of satan?

Given your apparent lack of knowledge about the issue, I'd say yes.



I just wish the FSF would wise up and even better, stop these little "campaigns" they waste our time with.
Now that's interesting. How exactly are they wasting your time? Are they forcing you to bitch and moan about it on a linux forum?

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Well DRM isn't really about protecting software, so I don't know what your point is.
And how is it theirs after I bought something?


Given your apparent lack of knowledge about the issue, I'd say yes.


Now that's interesting. How exactly are they wasting your time? Are they forcing you to bitch and moan about it on a linux forum?

Since you make yourself out to be some sort of guru, why don't you set out all the "evils" of DRM clearly for us?

It limits the use of software, and personally, I don't care.

No matter how much bile the FSF spout, I still won't care.

Polygon
July 27th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?

But it's not only the amount of resentment that's amazing, but also the way it is expressed. People whine about and bash the FSF with a zeal and hatred that's rather breathtaking. Add to this the fact that most of those bashing the FSF don't seem to have the slightest clue what they are talking about (for example, not knowing the difference between open source and free software) and you really have to wonder what kind of users ubuntu or rather these forums attract.

Especially considering that they don't seem to have a problem to rely on free software while at the same time insulting those who provided it form them.

About the issue at hand, I agree with you. I think the FSF raises valid points, however I have serious doubts that this is the best way to express these points.

maybe people dont understand about the fsf's ideals, but its pretty clear that most everyone thinks that this latest campaign is terrible. I now think very poorly of them that they are still going with it, even with a slashdot article full of people going "wow the fsf are a bunch of little trolls" and 10+ "why are you doing this???" comments on the original blog article. This has done nothing but hurt the FSF's reputation and for what, so they can **** off some apple employee's and customers that have no impact on apple's policy? good job.

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Since you make yourself out to be some sort of guru, why don't you set out all the "evils" of DRM clearly for us?

It limits the use of software, and personally, I don't care.
Again, it's not really about limiting the use of software. If you want to learn about criticisms of DRM, head over to the FSF site, you'll find lots of information there.

Or simply google yahoo music and drm or plays for sure and drm or New Yorker and drm.



No matter how much bile the FSF spout, I still won't care.
That's amazing, as you yourself no told us you were utterly uninformed about the issue. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to agree with the stance of the FSF on this matter, however, not even trying to educate yourself about it and what the FSF has to say about it and then proclaiming that you don't care isn't particularly convincing.

And you still didn't tell me how the FSF is forcing you to waste your time.

wrtpeeps
July 27th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Again, it's not really about limiting the use of software. If you want to learn about criticisms of DRM, head over to the FSF site, you'll find lots of information there.

Or simply google yahoo music and drm or plays for sure and drm or New Yorker and drm.


That's amazing, as you yourself no told us you were utterly uninformed about the issue. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to agree with the stance of the FSF on this matter, however, not even trying to educate yourself about it and what the FSF has to say about it and then proclaiming that you don't care isn't particularly convincing.

And you still didn't tell me how the FSF is forcing you to waste your time.

Yea, I'm sure I'll get a totally impartial, non-idiotic view on it from that site. :rolleyes:

FranMichaels
July 27th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Since you make yourself out to be some sort of guru, why don't you set out all the "evils" of DRM clearly for us?

It limits the use of software, and personally, I don't care.

No matter how much bile the FSF spout, I still won't care.

Hardware uses software (surprising! ;)), for DRM to be in place, they don't show you the source code, and they don't let you modify it. Your use of the device is under the whims of a particular company or corporation.

It is easy to say avoid it and don't buy things with DRM if you don't like it. I do that, and agree.

But many people don't know about DRM. The features DRM allow are often (always?) anti-consumer, in that they limit copying, fair use, and personal use.

If you don't like the FSF and their campaigns, no matter what reasons given, ridiculous or valid, you are dismissing it.

So then, why bother? Just ignore the FSF. You stated you'd never change your mind no matter what they say. Just enjoy the benefit of one of their licenses, and take a practical stance on it like Linus Torvalds. GPLv2 is tit for tat, and allows "tivoization".

Closed_Port
July 27th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Yea, I'm sure I'll get a totally impartial, non-idiotic view on it from that site. :rolleyes:
Where did I say you would?
Oh right, I didn't, I said you'd get the viewpoint of the FSF that you could than happily agree or disagree with.

But it's nice to know that you call a view you don't even know idiotic. Really does make it easy to decide if you should be taken seriously or not, as is your failure to repeatedly answer a very simple question.

bobbob94
July 27th, 2008, 06:30 PM
I don't know, I generally find that reading multiple articles by people who are for and against something helps me form my own view... The FSF site is, suprise suprise, definitely anti and there's no shortage of DRM justifications from the recording industry. Why not see what they have to say on the subject before dismissing it out of hand?

Joeb454
July 27th, 2008, 06:31 PM
Thread Closed for Staff Review

Update: The thread is staying closed, as it's just turning into a(nother) flame war regarding the FSF. Unless staff decide otherwise, it is unlikely it be re-opened.