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sharks
July 26th, 2008, 03:20 AM
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-8-10-Alpha-3-Screenshot-Tour-90732.shtml

cardinals_fan
July 26th, 2008, 03:26 AM
The GTK Theme == Epic Fail

madjr
July 26th, 2008, 03:35 AM
The GTK Theme == Epic Fail

agree

Mark must be getting headaches every time he sees that, it's no were near the "beauty" he been praising

bp1509
July 26th, 2008, 03:50 AM
i disagree, been using the theme for the past week and half and i love it.

cdtech
July 26th, 2008, 03:52 AM
Is that a duck?

kool_kat_os
July 26th, 2008, 03:52 AM
i think that theme look awesome...but i would have used the old shut down button image from the old theme

madjr
July 26th, 2008, 03:53 AM
i disagree, been using the theme for the past week and half and i love it.

sauna-dark brown theme beats the crap outta that one :)

http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Sauna-Dark?content=80633

aktiwers
July 26th, 2008, 03:53 AM
The theme looks like a bad joke to me :(

vishzilla
July 26th, 2008, 05:07 AM
will they be working on this theme only or will they experiment with some other. this theme aint impressive. i like to see a theme based on Slickness for example.

Methuselah
July 26th, 2008, 06:15 AM
I'm in love with the window decorations/widgets here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kith_Intrepid?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntukin.jpg

and here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=screenshot.png

I think these are emerald versions of the proposed theme though.

billgoldberg
July 26th, 2008, 08:42 AM
The theme isn't spectacular, but it's ok.

Better than the one in 8.04.

I'm wondering why they insist on creating one from scratch. Wouldn't it be easier to modify another theme to their exact needs?

Scruffynerf
July 26th, 2008, 08:42 AM
Is ubuntu getting too popular now or something?

Why sabotage people wanting to try it by making OMG Fugly?

There's a lot of distro's out there now, most of them at least look attractive & professional.

Canis familiaris
July 26th, 2008, 08:43 AM
the gtk theme == epic fail

+100

mrgnash
July 26th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Awful :(

Nepherte
July 26th, 2008, 09:23 AM
I'm not liking it either, but what's the point on judging an alpha 3 theme? I withhold my judgment until 8.10 goes final. And besides, I'm changing the theme anyways to fit my needs.

toupeiro
July 26th, 2008, 09:34 AM
I could seriously care less about the default theme. The look and feel is the first thing I personalize, and regardless of what it looks like, people new to ubuntu will care that its functional and intuitive first. If I wanted something pretty that doesn't work intuitively, I'd run OSX (ducks)

:lolflag:

Saint Angeles
July 26th, 2008, 09:45 AM
i like the stripe along the top window border of the active window.

i think the icons need to change.

also, i think the theme could be a lot better with just a slight color tweak.

still... i had an idea a while back to settle the problem of not everybody liking the default theme.

there should be 4 default themes...
Fire - red, orange, white
Earth - brown, green
Water - dark blue, teal
Sky - light blue, white...

during the installation process, the user could be asked which he/she prefers.

Canis familiaris
July 26th, 2008, 10:05 AM
i like the stripe along the top window border of the active window.

i think the icons need to change.

also, i think the theme could be a lot better with just a slight color tweak.

still... i had an idea a while back to settle the problem of not everybody liking the default theme.

there should be 4 default themes...
Fire - red, orange, white
Earth - brown, green
Water - dark blue, teal
Sky - light blue, white...

during the installation process, the user could be asked which he/she prefers.

You forgot Wind. grey like in Xubuntu

JimmyJazz
July 26th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Looks like ****, really the dark theme looks completely unprofessional, I thought we where trying to get taken serious here. I know the theme can be changed (and its almost always the first thing I do when I install) but for a lot of people the default theme is their first impression of an OS, why alienate new users more with a theme like this.

Saint Angeles
July 26th, 2008, 10:12 AM
You forgot Wind. grey like in Xubuntu
oops... i meant Wind instead of Sky...

light blue, grey, white

Saint Angeles
July 26th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Looks like ****, really the dark theme looks completely unprofessional, I thought we where trying to get taken serious here. I know the theme can be changed (and its almost always the first thing I do when I install) but for a lot of people the default theme is their first impression of an OS, why alienate new users more with a theme like this.
so you think all dark themes look unprofessional?
have you seen ubuntu studio's default theme?

Kernel Sanders
July 26th, 2008, 12:19 PM
That new theme is all kinds of FAIL :(

mech7
July 26th, 2008, 12:32 PM
Yuh i think we can all agree that it sucks :p

urukrama
July 26th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Why does it still use the Heron wallpaper?

madjr
July 26th, 2008, 12:59 PM
I'm in love with the window decorations/widgets here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kith_Intrepid?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntukin.jpg

and here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=screenshot.png

I think these are emerald versions of the proposed theme though.

+ 1 to Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal

Exsecrabilus
July 26th, 2008, 01:21 PM
I heard this theme was just an experiment to make sure dark themes work with GNOME/GTK. Hope it's true.

Growbag
July 26th, 2008, 01:26 PM
WOW, way cool!!!!

It looks exactly the same as all the other Ubuntu themes, man they must have put such a lot of effort and time into getting just the right shade of brown this time!

:lolflag:

mech7
July 26th, 2008, 01:26 PM
+ 1 to Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_GTK_proposal

This looks great.. except maybe the stripe on the top bar of the window interferes with the text.. especially with the windows that are not active, the text is unreadable.

Cl'zho
July 26th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Yuh i think we can all agree that it sucks :p

I don't think we can all agree that it "sucks". Mostly because we don't all agree that it sucks, hm? I know I don't. I think it's okay.

Most default themes that I know of aren't so dark, so I guess you could say that it's unconventional. That's not bad. I mean, they could have done the theme in the overused blue, and I, for one, would take a brown theme over a blue one any day.

Also, I think a few people should be reminded that not every brown thing is made of ****. My desk is brown, but I can assure you that it's made of wood. I know that, at least in this thread, no one said they don't like the theme because it looks like ****, literally, but I know that's why most people don't like the brown theme. So again I say, the theme is not made of ****, my desk is not made of ****, and not everything coloured brown is ****. /end rant about ****, of all things...

It seems that **** is censored... should I have said poo instead? :P

mips
July 26th, 2008, 01:55 PM
As a child Ubuntu was hit with the ugly stick and it looks like it is worsening in its teens.

GCoffee
July 26th, 2008, 02:44 PM
I like the 'emerald' proposal for 8.10, and the gtk proposal is cool to.

I must say the default theme is a bit disapointing.. but it is only alpha 3, you want to atleast wait for the BETA to come out..

GC

Delever
July 26th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Start with something impressive and new, brave colors, brave ideas.

1. Strip ideas down

2. Change it to be closer to previous

3. Make it more grey

Repeat from 1.

;)

Come on! Well, I will change it anyways, but meh.

Kernel Sanders
July 26th, 2008, 03:41 PM
To be fair, when there were mockups doing the rounds like this, the new theme is a MASSIVE disappointment.

If Ubuntu is to fulfill the high hopes of us all, it needs to make n00bs go "WOW", right out of the box. Giving n00bs something like this, and then telling them to go look for a better theme themselves has them going "PASS", and on to Vista and Mac every time.

http://linuxiano.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/clear___intrepid_ibex_by_salane89.jpg

MONODA
July 26th, 2008, 03:48 PM
The GTK Theme == Epic Fail
yeah, sadly... It deosnt look usable at all.

Delever
July 26th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Such things make me want to get involved. You know, because I am teh best :lolflag:.

Polygon
July 26th, 2008, 03:51 PM
like everyone has said, the theme sucks.

and they are running out of time to improve it.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 26th, 2008, 03:55 PM
Kernel Sanders: That there is just one of many users' contributed mockups. The problem with that one ("Clear") is it relies on heavy changes to applications, some of which is presently impossible. For example, while I hope this can be overcome some day, we presently can not put a program's menu bar in the metacity window decorations. (Creating a popup type window and relying on GTK to handle window movement would be the current solution. In the future, hopefully, windows could just be dragged from any empty spots as a part of the platform). That would be quite bad for usability anyway, since users expect there to be a title amongst the window decorations.
Hiding the actual content of window buttons is objectionable, too, since there is no real reason to do so. If someone wants to know if a window is closable at a glance, he must thus move the mouse pointer to its title bar first to see the button labels.

Besides that, Clear's first mockup had very little detail for anything the themes actually do. For example, GTK widgetry was absent. Naturally, later mockups were much better: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Clear_Intrepid
Though my bias is fairly obvious, it definitely achieves the smooth look rather well. A few years from now, it could be achievable. First, we need full argb support everywhere. We also need people to look at the Tango project's window experiments (http://tango.freedesktop.org/Window_Experiments) and start pondering how to make the idea reality.

It has been said many times: That theme used in Alpha 3 is just for testing purposes. This is being done because GNOME has been notoriously bad at dark themes. An astounding number of applications fall apart with them because they rely on arbitrary colours instead of determining them programmatically or from the GTK theme. For example, Evolution's options dialog changes colour in horrible ways when we add in a differently coloured menu bar.
This is a big contribution from Ubuntu: Piles and piles of bug reports regarding dark theme support that previously went unnoticed.

Indeed, there is lots of interest at this point towards making a nice new theme. (Right now the movement is in a million directions).
There are many voices of reason amongst the ubuntu-art mailing list pointing out that a full dark theme is a bad idea and quite ugly to boot, so hopefully Intrepid Final will see something sharp, easy on the eyes and attractive instead of dull but "ooh, pitch black!".

I still stand by the thought that New Wave is the nicest of the bunch :)

Delever
July 26th, 2008, 04:07 PM
Well, that there is just one of many users' contributed mockups. The problem with that one ("Clear") is it relies on heavy changes to applications, some of which is presently impossible. For example, while I hope this can be overcome some day, we presently can not put a program's menu bar in the metacity window decorations. (Creating a popup type window and relying on GTK to handle window movement would be the current solution. In the future, hopefully, windows could just be dragged from any empty spots as a part of the platform). That would be quite bad for usability anyway, since users expect there to be a title amongst the window decorations.

It has been said many times: That theme used in Alpha 3 is just for testing purposes. This is being done because GNOME has been notoriously bad at dark themes; an astounding number of applications fall apart with them because they rely on arbitrary colours instead of determining them programmatically or from the GTK theme.
This is a big contribution from Ubuntu: Piles and piles of bug reports regarding dark theme support that previously went unnoticed.

Indeed, there is lots of interest at this point towards making a nice new theme. (Sadly, the movement is in a million directions).
There are many voices of reason amongst the ubuntu-art mailing list pointing out that a full dark theme is a bad idea and quite ugly to boot, so hopefully Intrepid Final will see something sharp, easy on the eyes and attractive instead of dull but "ooh, pitch black!".

I still stand by the thought that New Wave is the nicest of the bunch :)

I agree, also, such heavy transparencies could be bad from usability point of view. Imagine white background there under menu.

I am using slickness theme at the moment with some heavy transparencies, and i keep usability up by configuring compiz blur plugin to blur anything behind not opaque windows. Since blur can only be used on faster systems, mockups should avoid transparencies or be very light with them.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 26th, 2008, 04:17 PM
And besides that, while a gathering in Redmond would have us think otherwise, being semi-transparent is not the ultimate achievement in beauty. Blurry alpha transparency is not what makes Vista nice looking. One may notice that they did not just grab the WinXP theme and make the title bars fancy. There was a lot more to it.

For example, they came up with a large overhanging glass sheet which has since been applied to their material products, which does well representing windows artistically and makes it easy to resize them. [On the other hand, I think the visible end of the title bar should be eradicated]. They worked out a rather interesting UI toolkit which has been used in their new products, which allows the window to be draggable from the toolbar and has the background of the window be that glassy thing with the titlebar simply being an extension of that rather than a tacked on thingamabob. (Note that it is easier for Microsoft to do the draggable from anywhere idea, since windows in Windows basically handle their own dragging at some level. That is why you often can not move a window belonging to a broken program in Windows, but can in Ubuntu where window dragging is by the window manager -- featuring a tacked on title bar and border).

Something to keep in mind is that the effect is only good looking when it does not drain usability. (Note the word "good". "Good" can be applied to many contexts beyond "attractive"). It is a drain on usability to drag toplevel window opacity down to 10% without any attention payed to the contents. This works well when a GTK theme with argb support (Not Yet!) does it, since that way widgets can actually be readable rather than blended impossibly into the background.

"But usability only affects a small percentage of users" -- that claim is not accurate. It may only destroy the experience for that small number of users, but for many others it causes extra strain. Strain which can be overcome fairly easily by those with good eyes but which is entirely visible, inspiring angry thoughts. Consider a game with broken camera controls. Can be overcome - can even be ignored. But it is annoying and should not happen.

Methuselah
July 26th, 2008, 06:32 PM
If people want mac and vista they should use them.
The community of existing users is more important than hypothetical users out there.

There is some benefit to familiarity, but making linux look superficially like another OS can be a bad idea because under the hood it certainly isn't.
It should be as bold in appearance as Ubuntu is now to attract the kind of user who's less likely to complain that he can't see an IE icon on his desktop.

So, I am a big supporter of Ubuntu's brown theming.
The earthy/dusky palette is an Ubuntu identifying mark now and it shouldn't be changed , just refined.
[I keep imagining a wood grain window decoration but that's just me]
AFIAC, the white on dark CLI is way easier on my eyes that the glaring white screens most people seem to prefer on their desktops.

lapcat66
July 26th, 2008, 07:45 PM
I'm going to go against the grain. I'm using it on Intrepid alpha 3 right now. It's not bad, but I would prefer something like the Kernel's mockup.

It's an attempt at a dark theme that's not too dark. Many of the dark themes will blind you with an app with a white background. This one seems not to do that (execept firefox, as show in the walkthrough, and that's easily fixable.

Occasionally I'll see dark text on a dark background, but overall, it's a step forward to me.

kevdog
July 26th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Why would the Ibex release contain a Heron as its background? Seems like that would be the first thing I would change to allow the release to be consistent with its name.

Canis familiaris
July 26th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Why would the Ibex release contain a Heron as its background? Seems like that would be the first thing I would change to allow the release to be consistent with its name.

It is only an Alpha release.
I think they would finalize the appearance during the Beta Stage.

sistoviejo
July 26th, 2008, 08:51 PM
I don't like the theme very much. I prefer the current theme in Hardy.

Npl
July 26th, 2008, 09:11 PM
I like the new theme, dark themes are way easier on the eyes. It doesnt blend with the standard wallpaper though.
Also, GUI-Elements are way more compact, which is a necessary step as Clearlooks wastes alot of space. Needs some tuning though, because I have big Trouble spotting induvidual tabs (http://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/ubuntu810alpha3-large_015.jpg)

Chame_Wizard
July 26th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Glad Kubuntu here:lolflag:

Darkhack
July 27th, 2008, 02:44 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that we don't even need a theme change? Ubuntu has somewhat unusual theme colors (orange/brown mixture) and it can be very difficult to devise a theme for it. I think the current Human theme in 8.04 is just fine. Why change it? Just for the sake of changing it?

Windows almost has to change because of marketing and people need to feel like they're getting something new. If Vista had the same theme as XP, it would be even more heavily criticized than it is now because most of the changes in Vista were under the hood and no average user would be aware of any difference.

To me, Ubuntu wins by adding new features, fixing bugs, and making usability improvements (though not necessarily theme related). People might even like the consistency of it over they "hey look at me, I'm new" theme changes. That's not to say I'm against a change of theme; just under the condition it's not worse than what we already have.

23meg
July 27th, 2008, 03:07 AM
To be fair, when there were mockups doing the rounds like this, the new theme is a MASSIVE disappointment.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4902693&postcount=41

wersdaluv
July 27th, 2008, 03:31 AM
The theme is not as bad as you think. I used it for quite a while. It's easier on the eyes and it looks really professional (I didn't expect it because I used to have something against dark themes). There are just some issues like making the whole "paper field" on OpenOffice.org Writer brown. It's fine because the Ubuntu folks are there to fix dark theme problems.

phaed
July 27th, 2008, 07:06 AM
The problem with a dark theme for me is that my eyes are sensitive to contrasts. I don't even like watching TV in the dark. It gets uncomfortable after a while and have to turn on the light.

I've tried dark themes, but most web pages are light/white, so it's hard to look at a web page inside a dark browser, or switch from the browser / light web page to another (dark) application.

I would almost consider that an accessibility issue.

hotweiss
July 27th, 2008, 07:11 AM
To be fair, when there were mockups doing the rounds like this, the new theme is a MASSIVE disappointment.

If Ubuntu is to fulfill the high hopes of us all, it needs to make n00bs go "WOW", right out of the box. Giving n00bs something like this, and then telling them to go look for a better theme themselves has them going "PASS", and on to Vista and Mac every time.
http://linuxiano.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/clear___intrepid_ibex_by_salane89.jpg

Wow that looks great.

Canis familiaris
July 27th, 2008, 09:04 AM
I hope they are just trying to fool us and they come up with something great to surprise us in the final release.

master5o1
July 27th, 2008, 09:09 AM
I can't stand that clear theme. It is one of the most grandiosely ugly mock-ups I have ever seen.

For starters all the icons are different sizes and even perspectives.

Shapes of certain features like the desktop switcher and the arrows show lack of thought and skill. Over use of transparency doesn't symbolise cleanliness but web2.0 hype and relying on it.

The over use of glowing bits does not look impressive, if anything it brings attention to things which should blend in to the background and essentially be hidden when not wanted.

The worst part isn't doesn't actually solve the problems with themes in GNOME and makes a lot of things look uglier (such as the menu, which is ugly enough already stop hitting it and making it worse rofl)

Growbag
July 27th, 2008, 12:33 PM
I hope they are just trying to fool us and they come up with something great to surprise us in the final release.

I don't think they will change the habit of a lifetime, the only surprise will be how much the same it will be.

I just really wish they would do something useful, like use a graphical grub boot loader like the other 90% of distros out there! It really isn't that hard guys, and that rubbish about possible instability or incompatability is just an excuse for laziness.

It makes Ubuntu look like a school project having the antiquated black and white text screen.

You can install grub-gfxboot, but it is not in the Ubuntu repos, and takes a little skill to setup properly.

Or at least have a nice backdrop to the TTYs, something that still makes me say "wow" when I switch to a tty in opensuse.

Ubuntu will always be just another shade of brown, and a few changed icons.

Sad really, it had a great start in life :(.

Exsecrabilus
July 27th, 2008, 01:53 PM
To be fair, when there were mockups doing the rounds like this, the new theme is a MASSIVE disappointment.

If Ubuntu is to fulfill the high hopes of us all, it needs to make n00bs go "WOW", right out of the box. Giving n00bs something like this, and then telling them to go look for a better theme themselves has them going "PASS", and on to Vista and Mac every time.

http://linuxiano.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/clear___intrepid_ibex_by_salane89.jpg
What the **** is this failure?

Mr. Picklesworth
July 27th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Yah... the first Clear mockup is pretty ugly. /And/ I too am not a fan of the changing perspective on icons. (Or any icons with perspective other than front view, since a perspective view is just visual clutter).
It should be stressed that some better looking mockups were posted to Clear's Wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Clear_Intrepid). Not that I am a fan of them either, since I despise all themes that think killing readability is a key to success. I also don't like the idea that the menu button is better for usability than the menu bar or somehow the only way to have search in the menu. Neither is true, and Search is better achieved by another applet, namely Deskbar, placed beside the menu bar applet. Common users do not notice or use Vista's Start menu search, and they are justifiably confused by how the menu changes. It makes way more sense and provides more functionality to display search results somewhere else.
Err, don't be too mean, though. Try to be constructive! Salane Ashcraft, who made the mockup, is quite a helpful and constructive fellow, and he means only to do good. The favour should really be returned to him!


Here is a thread on the latest incarnation of the beautiful Kith Intrepid theme:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2008-July/006992.html
Right now a mockup, but Ken knows what he's doing :)

He has seen the light and made the gtk theme diverse instead of having the entire theme a mass of pinky brown. In my opinion, it now looks top-notch and is just perfect for the theme further down the line. Hopefully others agree!
Note that this is all in early development / planning, so nobody cry when it turns out differently. I'm just showing that the art people are indeed not hopeless but they would probably not be overjoyed at seeing a particular ignorant discussion going in in this thread.

We still need a Metacity theme - right now it is just Emerald. Any talented Metacity themers who have a thought for how to achieve that (or at least fake it) feel free to jump in! I suspect that it should be possible now to create a Metacity theme with alpha in it :/

gjoellee
July 27th, 2008, 04:25 PM
i don't think the theme is an epiq fail, but i don't really like it as it is. I like gloosy stuff so I think it should be more glossy:lolflag: put that picture...that theme is just awesome!

diffuze
July 27th, 2008, 04:29 PM
i would almost consider that an accessibility issue.
+1

seatex
July 27th, 2008, 06:50 PM
I'm definitely not feeling it here.

Please... please... at least make a good bluish alternative to this orange and grey ugliness.

It would be much appreciated.

articpenguin
July 27th, 2008, 07:17 PM
how about a different color than brown?

PryGuy
July 27th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Hey, Mark, what's going on?! The Human theme isn't an eye candy but it's waaay better compared to the Ibex Alpha3! Think they better should focus on icons, Tango ones look so old-fasioned, sorry... :(

dizee
July 27th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Hey, Mark, what's going on?! The Human theme isn't an eye candy but it's waaay better compared to the Ibex Alpha3! Think they better should focus on icons, Tango ones look so old-fasioned, sorry... :(
yeah, i'm not a massive fan of the human icon set. i'm using human elephant savane (http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gnome%2BHumanElephant+Savane%2BMarine+?content=755 00) icons and they're much nicer.

i don't think the ibex alphas are too bad though, i honestly would use that theme. besides, i'm pretty sure it's not going to be default but they're using it to iron out bugs with dark themes in certain programs. the theme will be optional but not default as far as i know.

cardinals_fan
July 27th, 2008, 08:03 PM
The Tango icons are nice unadulterated. They don't need an orange coating of paint.

ghindo
July 27th, 2008, 08:57 PM
Did you guys know that this is an alpha release? This is an alpha release.

Did you guys know that the theme is nowhere near final? It's pretty much nowhere near final.

Did you guys know that the current theme is just a placeholder? The current theme's just a placeholder.

bobbybobington
July 28th, 2008, 12:13 AM
sauna-dark brown theme beats the crap outta that one :)

http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Sauna-Dark?content=80633

Agreed, if they applied some well placed, subtle gradients (as seen in sauna-dark) it would vastly improve it. Ultimately any dark theme -no matter how good- should only be used as an option and never default because of usability issues.

Delever
July 28th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Did you guys know that this is an alpha release? This is an alpha release.

Did you guys know that the theme is nowhere near final? It's pretty much nowhere near final.

Did you guys know that the current theme is just a placeholder? The current theme's just a placeholder.

So you get what would happen if this wouldn't be an alpha release ;)

johnlvs2run
July 28th, 2008, 01:32 AM
Is that a duck?

:lol:

I'm using the reddish brown "no wallpaper" theme.

madjr
July 28th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Did you guys know that this is an alpha release? This is an alpha release.

Did you guys know that the theme is nowhere near final? It's pretty much nowhere near final.

Did you guys know that the current theme is just a placeholder? The current theme's just a placeholder.

if no one ranted about it i would bet it would show up in the RC or even the final..

if they wanted to sort out bugs with dark themes i think the guys at ubuntu studio would be better off doing that.

ghindo
July 28th, 2008, 07:52 AM
if no one ranted about it i would bet it would show up in the RC or even the final..The thing is, the people here are expressing their distaste in the wrong place. I would think that Launchpad or (like 23meg mentioned (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5465536&postcount=48)) the ubuntu-art mailing list, or the Ubuntu Wiki would be more appropriate places to air your opinion, because those are where decisions are actually made.

23meg
July 28th, 2008, 10:32 AM
The thing is, the people here are expressing their distaste in the wrong place. I would think that Launchpad or (like 23meg mentioned (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5465536&postcount=48)) the ubuntu-art mailing list, or the Ubuntu Wiki would be more appropriate places to air your opinion, because those are where decisions are actually made.

I would add that if your only opinion is "Eww, the theme sucks, change it", it's best for everyone involved that you don't bother to mention it anywhere other than the forums.

PryGuy
July 28th, 2008, 03:38 PM
yeah, i'm not a massive fan of the human icon set. i'm using human elephant savane (http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gnome%2BHumanElephant+Savane%2BMarine+?content=755 00) icons and they're much nicer.Yeah, these icons look great!!! Canonical, use them, pleeeeease!!![-o<

geoken
July 28th, 2008, 04:06 PM
The thing is, the people here are expressing their distaste in the wrong place. I would think that Launchpad or (like 23meg mentioned (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5465536&postcount=48)) the ubuntu-art mailing list, or the Ubuntu Wiki would be more appropriate places to air your opinion, because those are where decisions are actually made.

Why? If you want to find out what the community thinks, go and listen in the place where the community likes to speak and where they feel comfortable speaking.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 28th, 2008, 06:28 PM
Perhaps because the very worthy community of contributors is on Launchpad and the mailing lists? I like to think of this as a very helpful discussion forum, not 'The Community'. [Sorry, this is bound to be interpreted differently than I was thinking. Rather an extension of the community, but not the community as a whole by any means].
If one was to explore the world beyond, I am sure he would learn where the difference lies.

Besides that, the art people very well know what people think of this current testing theme. They also know that what matters is getting things done, and dark theme bugs are one of those things in need of fixing. Ubuntu is a wonderful contributor of bug reports.
To change the development process because the current early status of Intrepid Ibex does not look finished is absurd. It Isn't Finished. Heck, I would be happy if this theme stayed applied up until some days of Beta just to ensure nobody installs it on production machines.

aaaantoine
July 28th, 2008, 07:23 PM
sauna-dark brown theme beats the crap outta that one :)

http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Sauna-Dark?content=80633

Mmm, delicious.

*updates theme*

the8thstar
July 28th, 2008, 07:43 PM
I don't think the "Distro theme" matters much in the end. Eventually a lot of people move away from the original to customize their own. The monthly desktop thread is a brilliant example of that.

geoken
July 28th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Perhaps because the very worthy community of contributors is on Launchpad and the mailing lists?

I could go on gnome look and fine just as many 'worthy' contributors.

Your deemining tone only exemplifies the problem. According to you my comments must be based on an ignorance derived from my innability to "explore the world beyond". Ironic. The point of my post was that devs and people 'in the loop' should at least consider the popular opinions on the forum, and as such voicing opinions on the forum should be a useful excericise.

You accuse me of not "explore[ing] the world beyond", yet support the process where tens of thousands of users are ignored because they choose to discuss things in a forum in "the world beyond" the mailing lists/irc.

It's unfortunate that you think people are not part of the community because they choose the forums as there prefered method of communication.

I'm not suggesting anyone change their development strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting that from? I'm just saying people will communicate in the forum that is most convinient to them. This, for the most part, equates to these discussion boards. If you want to embrace that, fine. If not that's fine as well. But don't tell people not to post here and post somehwere else instead (I know you didn't say this, the person I was responding to did)). People will share their opinions where they can. They are already handing their opinions on a silver platter, it's insulting to essentially tell them to shut up until they're able to provide said opinions on a gold platter.

days_of_ruin
July 28th, 2008, 08:23 PM
i think that theme look awesome...but i would have used the old shut down button image from the old theme

+1 I hope they keep it in the final default theme.It just looks so much better

pt123
July 28th, 2008, 08:59 PM
I really like this theme
http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Ubux2?content=85504

Mr. Picklesworth
July 28th, 2008, 09:05 PM
I could go on gnome look and fine just as many 'worthy' contributors.

Your deemining tone only exemplifies the problem. According to you my comments must be based on an ignorance derived from my innability to "explore the world beyond". Ironic. The point of my post was that devs and people 'in the loop' should at least consider the popular opinions on the forum, and as such voicing opinions on the forum should be a useful excericise.

You accuse me of not "explore[ing] the world beyond", yet support the process where tens of thousands of users are ignored because they choose to discuss things in a forum in "the world beyond" the mailing lists/irc.

It's unfortunate that you think people are not part of the community because they choose the forums as there prefered method of communication.

I'm not suggesting anyone change their development strategy. I'm not sure where you're getting that from? I'm just saying people will communicate in the forum that is most convinient to them. This, for the most part, equates to these discussion boards. If you want to embrace that, fine. If not that's fine as well. But don't tell people not to post here and post somehwere else instead (I know you didn't say this, the person I was responding to did)). People will share their opinions where they can. They are already handing their opinions on a silver platter, it's insulting to essentially tell them to shut up until they're able to provide said opinions on a gold platter.
Yes, my tone came out wrong. However, may I suggest that this particular sub-discussion has drifted completely off course?
Yes, so says the guy who just fed it a bucket of gasoline three posts ago, but we've just pointed out to each other that it is no longer about anything.

And to defuse this entirely unintended line, I'm not telling you to shut up by any means. I am just pointing out that the way things are layed out right now gives us an odd split: There is the launchpad community and the forum community. The two mediums have trouble coping with each other, to the point that we now have 'community ambassadors' acting as conduits between the two. Doesn't that seem just a little bit odd?
I think it comes from a familiarity people have with black box development processes, where there is often a forum community in which users post but which has nothing whatsoever to do with the core development. The most official person there is a forum administrator. Look at Apple's forums, for example; "don't ask us, ask Apple!" is common there. Asking Apple does not open the veil of their development in the slightest.

What I really mean to be pointing out (and am doing a terrible job at doing :/) is that this should not be like that! Here, the table is even. Every last one of us is qualified to say 'sorry I didn't single-handedly eradicate that aesthetic bug we have had forever'. (Yay, Totem's thick border that appears after exiting fullscreen is gone! Bordeless theme people will be pleased). Isn't that cool?

Launchpad is great for bug reports, user support and code hosting. Mailing lists are great for project planning and development discussions. Forums are great for casual community discussion, support and fun. I bet almost everyone who posts on the lists and Launchpad has an Ubuntu Forums account with at least one post, because the forums are where people are really exposed to free software and can start to feel its significance. Ubuntu Forums is a great hub, which doesn't happen with Launchpad or the lists since everything there is specific to a task.

There you are, three mediums for stuff to happen in. The lists and Launchpad fit together great, perhaps because they complement each other's roles quite well; there is no overlap. Maybe that is why the forum has some trouble fitting in: Because there is so much overlap between what the forum does and what Launchpad and the mailing lists do. Maybe that (and hopefully not by a significant degree my clumsy writing) is the source of this split. I suppose a factor there is a personality thing: The geeks who post on mailing lists aren't keen on redundancy :P

The split is poisonous. It seems harmless at first, but it risks casting a veil between this and the other two thirds of the community (I say two thirds in the sense of the medium, not numbers), which absolutely should not happen here. Suddenly we have thoughts popping up that can translate to "ask the people behind the locked door, oh gifted ones". Frighteningly, that normally makes sense with the forum community being totally detached -- the further away the better for the software developers' lawyers. However, with free software like this, I don't think anyone sees that as the right way to go.

Perhaps there is a way that overlap can be fixed so the three pieces of the Ubuntu ecosystem can slide together neatly.


And now we return to your originally scheduled programming: "Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha 3 Screenshot Tour" :)

geoken
July 29th, 2008, 01:20 AM
I think the problem is that the forums are (by design) extremely efficient at handling multiple conversations by large amounts of people. People like this medium because it best fits the types/volumes of conversations that they're having.

I don't think the black-box syndrome is a necessary product of using forums. There are various threads in here started by developers who were announcing a new app they wrote. A third, or more, of the posts would be the developer himself commenting on bugs or the status of feature requests that were asked in that very thread.

I think rather than saying how can we get these users commenting on launchpad/mailing lists, the forums should be harnessed. For example, why not have an official thread for a theme, then have the theme's page on incoming artwork link to that thread? That would simultaneously solve multiple problems. The comments themselves would be handled by the forums which are built and tweaked for that purpose, the redundancy would be eliminated, the 2 communities would get a stronger link, more people would test the theme (on account of the forum's high traffic), etc.

I think the barriers between mailing lists and forums should be broken down. It's really easy from a technical standpoint. For example, the adobe dev forums and dev lists are the same thing. If I reply to a message on the mailing list, then login to the forum, I'll see that reply as a comment in a thread. Then if I reply to that comment on the forums, I'll get my reply emailed to me a couple seconds later. It basically allows people to view the information and participate in whatever method they prefer.

23meg
July 29th, 2008, 11:47 PM
I think the problem is that the forums are (by design) extremely efficient at handling multiple conversations by large amounts of people. People like this medium because it best fits the types/volumes of conversations that they're having.

I don't agree that forums, with their web dependency (which necessitates manually visiting pages to retrieve content) and bloat (avatars, layout, etc.) are very fit for efficient communication in general, or the type and volume of communication needed for coordinating the development of a large free software project, but would agree that they are quite good for a certain genre of communication (which they encourage and give shape to, as the medium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message)), which consists of technical support and chit-chat.


I don't think the black-box syndrome is a necessary product of using forums. There are various threads in here started by developers who were announcing a new app they wrote. A third, or more, of the posts would be the developer himself commenting on bugs or the status of feature requests that were asked in that very thread.

I agree with your premise, but not the example: those people usually are singular developers of small projects, not various groups of developers of a huge project with sophisticated organizational needs.


I think rather than saying how can we get these users commenting on launchpad/mailing lists, the forums should be harnessed. For example, why not have an official thread for a theme, then have the theme's page on incoming artwork link to that thread? That would simultaneously solve multiple problems. The comments themselves would be handled by the forums which are built and tweaked for that purpose, the redundancy would be eliminated, the 2 communities would get a stronger link, more people would test the theme (on account of the forum's high traffic), etc.

That can certainly be done, and technically, yours is indeed a sound proposal. But it says nothing about the social implications; nothing about the specific kind of feedback that comes from forum users, about the scale of the feedback that would come and whether it's actually feasible to risk drowning in huge amounts of feedback that pretty much says the same things in slightly different ways, which can be garnered in other ways as well. It also carries various assumptions, such as that more traffic actually means more testers, and that more testers actually necessarily means more meaningful testing, which I would challenge in a more thorough discussion if I had the time and energy.


I think the barriers between mailing lists and forums should be broken down. It's really easy from a technical standpoint. For example, the adobe dev forums and dev lists are the same thing. If I reply to a message on the mailing list, then login to the forum, I'll see that reply as a comment in a thread. Then if I reply to that comment on the forums, I'll get my reply emailed to me a couple seconds later. It basically allows people to view the information and participate in whatever method they prefer.

That's indeed a strictly technical standpoint, and borders on "technical solutions to social problems". Until around mid-2005, this was exactly how the ubuntu-users and ubuntu-devel mailing lists worked: they were mirrored here, and you could post to them as a forum user; until it was realized that pretty much nobody on the forums paid attention to the lists, and when they did and posted, they appeared as an anonymous one-off nickname, staying mostly out of context. And then either the forum administrators decided that the interest wasn't enough to justify the server load, or the vBulletin plugin that provided the functionality went unmaintained (that did happen; I just am not sure it happened around that date), or both, and the functionality was discontinued. Bringing it back has been discussed in the last development summit, and will probably happen at some point if that plugin is working (), but in an effort to make more people aware that development is coordinated on some other venue called mailing lists, not in an effort to directly "bridge" the two media.

Other similar efforts to "bridge gap" have also failed: the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, which is mirrored (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=243) in the forums, has a small (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=823345) and almost completely passive readership, and the team of forum ambassadors has also gone down the drain due to the core misconceptions in its mission statement (I take responsibility for my part in that) and the near complete lack of contribution from established forum members who were capable of doing real work.

There are more examples I can cite from the forums' history to support my point, if you like, which is: the gap doesn't need bridging. The various venues for development coordination, support, quality assurance and general communication can coexist as separate entities that are not technically or bureaucratically connected, as long as they are open to the whole community under equal, non-discriminatory terms (which they are). Instead of trying to bridge the gap, those people who actually want to "jump across" should be assisted and educated (note that as opposed to literally jumping across a physical gap, one doesn't need to choose a side and be on that side all the time).

The gap will exist, simply because people immanently want it to exist with their participation patterns. People who use the forums as pretty much a one-stop shop for everything, for the most part, are regular non-technical users, and are not interested in participating in and contributing to development to any sustained extent, and this makes up the vast majority of the tens of thousands of registered users. The trick is to make sure that those who [I]are actually interested and capable can easily find or be pointed to the correct places and processes that they need to be aware of, and work on educating and assisting those who are interested, but not quite capable yet.

MaxIBoy
July 30th, 2008, 12:00 AM
Ugh. That gray-brown color makes me want to puke. Gray-brown could be good, but pick a different shade of gray-brown for the love of God!

CameO73
July 30th, 2008, 12:12 AM
I have to admit: the first time I saw this new theme I had the same objections as mentioned here. But I still wanted to try it on (for Hardy Heron: see here (http://blog.alexrybicki.com/2008/06/how-to-install-intrepid-ibex-theme-in.html)).

After a month of usage I'm really used to it. I did tweak it some more (Tango icons, slight color tweaks, page color in OpenOffice reset to white instead of light brown), but I can now see its charm.

Don't dismiss it right away without giving it at least a try. The biggest problem is probably that people aren't used to dark themes. And I'm sure the final theme will be a nicely tweaked version of this one (or something radically different -- we're still talking Alpha here).

I really hope they're going for something different now. Ubuntu doesn't need some Vista or Mac ripoff theme.

FlyingIsFun1217
July 30th, 2008, 12:43 AM
Ugh. By now I'm just REALLY sick of seeing brown used in all of the default themes. Every time I install *ubuntu, I look at the theme and am reminded of my (surely) gay neighbor who loves brown.

FlyingIsFun1217

acelin
July 30th, 2008, 01:16 AM
will they be working on this theme only or will they experiment with some other. this theme aint impressive. i like to see a theme based on Slickness for example.

Its basically the art director making this theme, while ignoring beautiful themes the rest of the art team has worked on. He doesnt care- he is snowing Mark.

cardinals_fan
July 30th, 2008, 01:20 AM
Its basically the art director making this theme, while ignoring beautiful themes the rest of the art team has worked on. He doesnt care- he is snowing Mark.
Sounds like a soap opera...

Anyhow, I just popped in to mention that I simply adore the Elegant Brit themes.

*pops out*

fillintheblanks
July 30th, 2008, 01:25 AM
they should make it so the titlebar is on the bottom of the window

it would look better

Ozor Mox
July 30th, 2008, 01:39 AM
I have to say I expressed the same distaste towards this theme as most others here, specifically it is too dark and brown and makes it difficult to read, but this is an alpha release. I'm sure by the time 8.10 goes final it will be much more polished and nice looking. I know not everyone likes the 8.04 default theme (I actually do rather like it), but one thing it isn't is unpolished.

MaxIBoy
July 30th, 2008, 01:45 AM
I liked the default themes to 7.10 and 8.04, hopefully the theme to 8.10 will shape up and meet the same standards.

frup
July 30th, 2008, 02:15 AM
The things I think a theme needs largely require changes to Gnome and GTK I think (Eg to elements of GNOME panel and the ability to have the File menu on the same level as the _ [ ] X buttons). Themes in the whole are easy to change so I'm not to bothered personally but I don't necessarily think the new dark theme, however permanent or temporary it may be is going to be beneficial. I don't think it would harm the image of Ubuntu though.
The dark theme actually looks good on small thumbnails and screenshots... It's when you view them full size or actually use Intrepid that it begins to look silly, but using the development process as a way to iron out dark-theme related bugs is a very very noble undertaking.

I Beryl/Compiz fusion window border themes better than the GTK/Metacity ones. But really what strikes me the most is the panel and how plain and boring it is. I don't really care or mind and generally just stick to plain human... but the dark grey theme tends to just make it that much more obvious.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 30th, 2008, 04:46 AM
I should also say, at risk of drifting totally off course... geoken, I really don't mean "repost this on Launchpad / the mailing lists you clutz or I'll prod you for eternity!" or any such thing. Basically, I am inviting people to look into those other major cornerstones of the Ubuntu community if you have not already. It sounds to me that you want Ubuntu pointed in the right direction and you would yourself benefit from that happening. Dedicated people are what can make Ubuntu great. While I can't (currently) credit myself to much, I can definitely say it makes me smile to see stuff happen :)

Growbag
July 30th, 2008, 11:27 AM
The problem is that you all assume it is a democracy, and that your views/opinions actually matter.

The sad fact is that this argument has been going on since before most of you even knew what Ubuntu Linux was, nothing has changed, and nothing will.

You take what you are given, get used to it!

Saint Angeles
July 30th, 2008, 11:30 AM
I really like this theme
http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Ubux2?content=85504
now THAT would be a great default theme...

bluebyt
July 30th, 2008, 12:40 PM
I like to see this theme default:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-intrepid.png

Exsecrabilus
July 31st, 2008, 02:18 PM
The problem is that you all assume it is a democracy, and that your views/opinions actually matter.

The sad fact is that this argument has been going on since before most of you even knew what Ubuntu Linux was, nothing has changed, and nothing will.

You take what you are given, get used to it!
The truth and the truth only.

gjoellee
July 31st, 2008, 09:46 PM
I really like this theme
http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Ubux2?content=85504
i don't like that theme actually...

I am using Intrepid, I don't think the theme is that bad actually...I can live with it, but i don't think any of the Ubuntu GTK themes actually are good enough! However the theme is updated a little now and there are small changes...

they should do something that is revolutionary for Ubuntu, not just use the same cursor, icons, and change the colors of the theme a little.

UBUNTU DEVELPERS AND THEMERS OUT THERE, FIGURE OUT SOMETHING TOTALLY NEW!!!!

dracule
July 31st, 2008, 09:59 PM
I have a fear that this will become the laughing stock of OS's if that theme is used.

gsmanners
July 31st, 2008, 10:53 PM
This proposed theme looks okay, although it certainly doesn't dazzle the eyes.

I personally like Aurora, but probably the most impressive theme would be to mesh together UbuntuStudio's metacity with SlicknesS or SlicknesS Brown for just the menus and Carbonfibre for the rest of the gtk.

zekopeko
July 31st, 2008, 11:01 PM
Its basically the art director making this theme, while ignoring beautiful themes the rest of the art team has worked on. He doesnt care- he is snowing Mark.

what does "snowing" mean in this context?

zekopeko
July 31st, 2008, 11:03 PM
Here is a thread on the latest incarnation of the beautiful Kith Intrepid theme:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2008-July/006992.html
Right now a mockup, but Ken knows what he's doing :)



that looks amazing.

sefs
August 1st, 2008, 12:17 AM
Nice theme.

Where can I get it to install it.

Ok I found how to here...

http://blog.alexrybicki.com/2008/06/how-to-install-intrepid-ibex-theme-in.html

tel93
August 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM
UGH! A dark theme!

Sigra
August 13th, 2008, 07:58 AM
I think new human is alot better then what ubuntu has now. but I would not ask ubuntu to switch blue..or black or any other color. Instead I add something to choose color to this theme, A variety of choose in overall is better then making all use ones perspective..at first install this them showing is a hugh upgrade in looks compared to old..and can get better yes. but main thing..please allow way alter as for my personal choice this theme in a black content not brown after I boot.

I see so many bash on this article I can see why what is said is overlooked. The developers deliver this product to you for FREE. And when you curse them cause its not what you like. You contribute nothing. If you give detail discription why do not like in a ethical manor..that in turn would be productive.

I simple for one believe the growth in a simple option of theming is key element to make everone happy with a variety of choice.

Example at bootup have screen show 10 choices of themes. ranging from default of ubuntu..to dark theme..to clear and simple theme..to die hard old school theme. you scroll down recieve preview of the theme which each title you select and then click one you like at install. This to me would be amazing innovation. also during install the network is detected and connected to internet. you could allow the selected theme sent back to ubuntu servers to see out 10 which the majority choose install..leave most popular one alone..and compete on lessor ones on list til another achieves most popular.

Best Regards
Sam Robins CEO Datakeep Communications

raggari
August 13th, 2008, 10:16 AM
Example at bootup have screen show 10 choices of themes. ranging from default of ubuntu..to dark theme..to clear and simple theme..to die hard old school theme. you scroll down recieve preview of the theme which each title you select and then click one you like at install. This to me would be amazing innovation. also during install the network is detected and connected to internet. you could allow the selected theme sent back to ubuntu servers to see out 10 which the majority choose install..leave most popular one alone..and compete on lessor ones on list til another achieves most popular.

Best Regards
Sam Robins CEO Datakeep Communications

Q: What's difference between geek and non-geek?
A: Geek wants to configure everything. Non-geek doesn't want anything.

Another mobile related:
Q: What's your dream mobile phone
Engineer answer: A phone that could be configured for my needs
Non-engineer answer: Ready to use without any extra steps

Exsecrabilus
August 13th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Only problem I have with the new theme is that OpenOffice.org Writer has pages that are brown and not white. I'm not asking how to change it or anything, but I just wish the Ubuntu team would make it white by default, despite the dark brown theme.

Sigra
August 13th, 2008, 10:44 PM
Q: What's difference between geek and non-geek?
A: Geek wants to configure everything. Non-geek doesn't want anything.

Another mobile related:
Q: What's your dream mobile phone
Engineer answer: A phone that could be configured for my needs
Non-engineer answer: Ready to use without any extra steps

A:I have say that is a extreme comment but valid thinking. Let me present a Layout to clarify

At bootup you read add simple box to Say place check mark if want a choose of visual Appearance of your operating system.(If you do not know what this means please bypass and click next.)

after place check mark in box click next it takes you to screen with 2 boxes
top one has list of themes...when select it..shows in bottom box a preview of how desktop looks .

people for life time have been able to modify the looks of not just a desktop but a choice in cars.(does sales man say, are you rocket sciencetist or human? Human. O well no way I could explain different colors to cars.

So your point even so rude as it was place. I disaggree. if context is wrote correctly. and the option is avaible this will provide a more free desktop at sametime allow ubuntu to poll what is most popular live.

NEXT.