SABDFL says Linux desktops should look nicer than Mac

[Sealbhach]

Or something like that.

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&resnum=0&um=1&tab=wn&q=linux+desktop&ie=UTF-8&ct=rels_4

I wonder what CLI fanatics make of all that?


.

[Bachstelze]

Terminal emulators can look nice too, you know...

[madjr]

i believe he wants something nice like newWave:


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-intrepid2_thumb.jpg


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave

[koenn]

Or something like that.

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&resnum=0&um=1&tab=wn&q=linux+desktop&ie=UTF-8&ct=rels_4

I wonder what CLI fanatics nake of all that?

.

make of what ?
the article doesn't qoute or refer to any mention of CLI, and using commandline tools and "beautiful, elegant software" on a "beautiful and useful desktop" are not mutually exclusive.

[RiceMonster]

Unsure what I nake of all that.

[koenn]

Unsure what I nake of all that.

yeah, too much naking going on. This thread is going to be naked.

[Oldsoldier2003]

make of what ?
the article doesn't qoute or refer to any mention of CLI, and using commandline tools and "beautiful, elegant software" on a "beautiful and useful desktop" are not mutually exclusive.

+1 My take on the subject (and I don't have an "special" knowledge, this is just my personal opinion) is that the idea is to make the Linux desktop visually appealing so that the masses are excited.

Tight integration and solid applications will be needed to keep their attention once we get it :) The gauntlet has been tossed for awhile, but with compiz becoming more mature , the stakes are raising.

[cardinals_fan]

I hate how Macs look. So, Ubuntu already does look nicer.

...what, you mean other people's opinions matter?

[DJ_Peng]

Or something like that.

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&resnum=0&um=1&tab=wn&q=linux+desktop&ie=UTF-8&ct=rels_4

I wonder what CLI fanatics [make] of all that?
I'm not a CLI maven, but I think one thing always gets left out here: Personal Choice. Some people love Mac's look. Some people love Vista's (when they can get their hardware updated enough to run it). Some people swear by GNOME and some will fight for KDE. Personally I like my desktop, a bit of GNOME with a dash of Mac4Lin, and just a pinch of sports fanatacism.

I also have a wallpaper that is no hold barred support for Dodger Blue. Even if they do follow a butt kicking win with getting trounced themselves in the Mile High City.

And thanks for the reminder. I was just thinking last night that I wanted to post a shot of my desktop in this month's desktop thread.

[Sealbhach]

Unsure what I nake of all that.

You see why I don't like the command line. :)

.

[bruce89]

I wonder if any of the supposed work that Ubuntu will undertake will go upstream.

[cardinals_fan]

I also have a wallpaper that is no hold barred support for Dodger Blue. Even if they do follow a butt kicking win with getting trounced themselves in the Mile High City.

The Cardinals will slaughter you Aug. 5-7!

...I hope :)

[Joeb454]

I just found this on Slashdot, thought it was an interesting read (I didn't read the article it linked to, I'm too lazy :))

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/23/203233&from=rss

[bruce89]

Unrelated, but I notice that Intel have dumped Ubuntu in favour of Fedora for Moblin (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/moblin_reworked/). Allegedly, it was because Intel wanted RPM, not apt. Why?

[Joeb454]

Allegedly, it was because Intel wanted RPM, not apt. Why?

I have no idea, maybe some Intel big wigs are old school Red Hat users?

[bruce89]

I have no idea, maybe some Intel big wigs are old school Red Hat users?

I suspect they're just doing anything to get people interested.

I always thought that a mobile computer with Firefox and OO.o on it wouldn't work, and I've been proved right.

[VitaLiNux]

Source: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/Shuttleworth-Make-Desktop-Linux-Better-than-Apple/

Will the eye-candy make Ubuntu more popular than Apple?

Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Canonical, calls on Linux developers to make the presentation layer of desktop Linux applications even more attractive to users than Apple’s Mac OS.

PORTLAND, Ore.—Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Canonical, which makes Ubuntu Linux, called for desktop Linux to improve to the point that its presentation layer is more visually exciting than Apple's.
During a talk at the O'Reilly Open Source Convention here July 22, Shuttleworth issued a final challenge to open-source developers before he left the stage.
"The great task in front of us over the next two years is to lift the experience of the Linux desktop from something that is stable and robust and not so pretty, into something that is art," Shuttleworth said to applause from the audience. "Can we not only emulate, but can we blow right past Apple?"
However, he made no mention of whether Apple intends to simply sit idly by while desktop Linux catches up to and surpasses the user experience that Apple has become so well-known for.
"I see this [need] for free software—beautiful, elegant software. We have to invest in making this desktop beautiful and useful," Shuttleworth said of Linux.
Meanwhile, he also said changes in technology drive changes in the economy and thus changes in society.
"More than any other time in history, software matters," Shuttleworth said. Despite enrollments in computer science declining, he said, "We're not done yet; the opportunity is only getting better."
For instance, "the iPhone is effectively a pure software experience," Shuttleworth said. "It's no accident that over the last 10 years in technology many of the biggest brands have been built using free software."
He cited Google as a prime example.
"The real stimulus of innovation is disclosure," Shuttleworth said. "And free software is the ultimate form of disclosure. Free software is the scaffolding of innovation."
Open-source developers should architect their solutions to be innovation-ready, Shuttleworth said. "Make it extensible," he said noting that allowing for plug-ins is a key to extensibility.
"Another key thing for innovation is platform tolerance," he said. "It's essential that we figure out how to work with Windows."
Developers also need to enable users to have a choice of tools, Shuttleworth said.
He then launched into a discussion of software development methodologies, stating that while he likes the agile methodologies, he has been considering how free software is impacting how developers think about software development methodologies.
Meanwhile, Shuttleworth said he hopes to see the industry move to an environment of "permission-free development," where developers are free to jump in and write code off of core open-source projects without seeking permissions.
Yet, although ad-sponsored content is great for the Web and for search applications, it is not the answer for free software applications that are not strictly Web applications, Shuttleworth said.
"I don't believe advertising will power free software applications; I think the emerging emphasis on services will help support that," Shuttleworth said.

[days_of_ruin]

Unrelated, but I notice that Intel have dumped Ubuntu in favour of Fedora for Moblin (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/moblin_reworked/). Allegedly, it was because Intel wanted RPM, not apt. Why?

Because they are ___?

[UniverseA7X]

I do think that it will definitely help. The first impression is based off of how fancy the desktop looks, and if that impression isn't registering as "cool looking" it gets passed off.

Linux already has the functionality and stability, now lets dress it up and put the cherry on top. it's already happening with things like compiz and emerald.

[gn2]

It will take more than a better look to overtake Apple's long established OS.

[VitaLiNux]

I do think that it will definitely help. The first impression is based off of how fancy the desktop looks, and if that impression isn't registering as "cool looking" it gets passed off.

Linux already has the functionality and stability, now lets dress it up and put the cherry on top. it's already happening with things like compiz and emerald.
I agree :) In order to GNU/Linux gain momentum, things have to grow prettier and better in every single release of software, thus people will have cute powerful apps, all in one.

[Linuxratty]

It will take more than a better look to overtake Apple's long established OS.

Yup..Sure will.

[bp1509]

What's going to make Linux popular? Sure special effects can help but Linux needs a few more things first. And they're not exactly popular ideas.

1. An automated way for the system to download Windows wireless drivers and install them with ndiswrapper during installation or initial setup, until free drivers can replace them.

2. Wine has to be a TON better. You're not going to get major software makers to make Linux apps until there's a significant percentage of users on the platform to make it worth their while. It's done decent with Adobe and early MS Office viewers, but it needs to be able to do most applications, including games, almost flawlessly.

3. Marketing. Mr Shuttleworth needs to market the hell out of Ubuntu. There needs to be TV commercials, preinstalls sitting on store shelves, $7 an hour clerks at stores pushing it, and a sales team actively seeking adoption in enterprises on the server.

4. Make it prettier than Mac (already is with Compiz), but most of the best Compiz features aren't incredibly stable yet. This needs to improve.

[Riffer]

But we can do that now, any one can make their desktop into what they want. There is 3 or 4 docks and one of which revels Apples (AWN). There is a gazillion themes to choose from. There are panels applets and at least 2 good menus (for Gnome at least). I forget how many threads on this forum and how any sites that gives HOWTOS in turning your desktop into a MAC or Windows clone.

Considering that trying to customize a MAC is a downright pain, I think we already have it all over MAC.

[kevin11951]

What's going to make Linux popular? Sure special effects can help but Linux needs a few more things first. And they're not exactly popular ideas.

1. An automated way for the system to download Windows wireless drivers and install them with ndiswrapper during installation or initial setup, until free drivers can replace them.

2. Wine has to be a TON better. You're not going to get major software makers to make Linux apps until there's a significant percentage of users on the platform to make it worth their while. It's done decent with Adobe and early MS Office viewers, but it needs to be able to do most applications, including games, almost flawlessly.

3. Marketing. Mr Shuttleworth needs to market the hell out of Ubuntu. There needs to be TV commercials, preinstalls sitting on store shelves, $7 an hour clerks at stores pushing it, and a sales team actively seeking adoption in enterprises on the server.

4. Make it prettier than Mac (already is with Compiz), but most of the best Compiz features aren't incredibly stable yet. This needs to improve.


numbers 1 & 2 wont be a problem any more, because once companies start to support linux, (because of the amount of people that will want them at that point) those points will be non existent..

[kevin11951]

But we can do that now, any one can make their desktop into what they want. There is 3 or 4 docks and one of which revels Apples (AWN). There is a gazillion themes to choose from. There are panels applets and at least 2 good menus (for Gnome at least). I forget how many threads on this forum and how any sites that gives HOWTOS in turning your desktop into a MAC or Windows clone.

Considering that trying to customize a MAC is a downright pain, I think we already have it all over MAC.

people will want Linux to look good out-of-the-box... they dont want to work for their pretty-ness.

[bp1509]

ah but 1 & 2 are still very much a problem because companies still don't support linux, and until that day comes there needs to be improvements in the work-around solutions.

I can't tell you the number of people that turn away from Linux because... Sony's Acid, or Reason, or AutoCad, or Quickbooks, etc.. won't run on it. Or because most games won't, or because they can't figure out ndiswrapper. Happens every day.

[VitaLiNux]

What's going to make Linux popular? Sure special effects can help but Linux needs a few more things first. And they're not exactly popular ideas.

1. An automated way for the system to download Windows wireless drivers and install them with ndiswrapper during installation or initial setup, until free drivers can replace them.

2. Wine has to be a TON better. You're not going to get major software makers to make Linux apps until there's a significant percentage of users on the platform to make it worth their while. It's done decent with Adobe and early MS Office viewers, but it needs to be able to do most applications, including games, almost flawlessly.

3. Marketing. Mr Shuttleworth needs to market the hell out of Ubuntu. There needs to be TV commercials, preinstalls sitting on store shelves, $7 an hour clerks at stores pushing it, and a sales team actively seeking adoption in enterprises on the server.

4. Make it prettier than Mac (already is with Compiz), but most of the best Compiz features aren't incredibly stable yet. This needs to improve.

I have to disagree with your 1 & 2 points. Firstly, Linux is not Windows. Secondly, Wine is just a project to ¨translate Windows' API for Linux. And that's it. I don't think we should be worried by whether closed-source devs(and vendors with the likes of Adobe for that matter) will ever make a decision to port some of their software to Linux. We have plenty of good software made by the Open Source community. Linux is hitting mainstream already. And it doesn't matter if it'll ever be more popular than Apple OSes.

[bruce89]

Will the eye-candy make Ubuntu more popular than Apple?

No, and it shouldn't. Striving for the best without caring what others are up to is the best way forward.

[gn2]

Number 1 ..... http://easylinuxwifi.org/ .....?

[kevin11951]

Companies wont make Linux drivers for Linux until more people are using Linux...

But...

People wont use Linux until companies make more drivers for Linux...



Just trying to understand this here.

[DarkOx]

The hardware thing wouldn't be a problem if Linux distros would start pushing their users towards buying computers designed for Linux in the first place. As a rule people don't want an OS, they want a computer. Start selling them that.

As for Wine, I think that it will always lag behind Windows somewhat. It could probably help for the key apps (Office, Photoshop, etc.) but what really needs to happen is finding out how to turn a profit on desktop apps like OpenOffice, or on the desktop as a whole. Either that, or Linux may have to get used to the idea proprietary apps. Without money to fund development, I think our apps might be alright, but won't ever reach best-in-breed status.

I agree about the pretty thing, but pretty isn't just the desktop. Heck, I never even look at mine, it's always covered with applications. Those have to look pretty too (banshee made really great strides here, with version 1.0).

In general, I think Ubuntu's moving towards doing these things though. With the netbook remix and mobile edition, Ubuntu seems like it's going to start selling Ubuntu-powered hardware. Make enough money off of this and support, and suddenly you can afford to invest in the desktop, and make it pretty.

[bp1509]

I have to disagree with your 1 & 2 points. Firstly, Linux is not Windows. Secondly, Wine is just a project to ¨translate Windows' API for Linux. And that's it. I don't think we should be worried by whether closed-source devs(and vendors with the likes of Adobe for that matter) will ever make a decision to port some of their software to Linux. We have plenty of good software made by the Open Source community. Linux is hitting mainstream already. And it doesn't matter if it'll ever be more popular than Apple OSes.

You're right. Linux is not Windows. But hardware working like it should has nothing to do with OS preference or copy-catting. It's basic functionality that Linux lacks, and there are workable solutions that can be made better until free software provides something better.

As to running Windows applications, Mac wouldn't be where it is, without what are generally Windows applications (MS Office, WMV and WMA functionality, AutoCad, Quicken, TurboTax, Quickbooks, Adobe suite, etc..) There are applications out there, where most of the public doesn't wholly care all that much about the OS as they do the ability to run these very specific applications. The applications are MORE important than the OS to these folks, which OS they chose is simply icing on the cake to them. Linux and Free Software advocates need to come to grips with this IF they care about adoption. While i support the goals of their evangelism, it can be counter productive. The market decides, not the hardcore defenders of Linux or free software.

While there's great open source applications that can perform many many functions, fact of the matter is, they don't have the user-base to bring users to the desktop. Just because you build it doesn't mean they will come. Point in case, Gimp is a very usable tool. Of course, it's not Photoshop.

But lets look at that for a second. Are there lots of people who use Photoshop for professional purposes? Sure. But I would lay money on the fact there's more people using pirated versions of Photoshop to make lolcat pictures and participate in Fark / SomethingAwful Photoshopping contests. Of course I have no real numbers, but I'd bet my life on it. And on the assumption that this is the case, you have people PIRATING software that can perform the SAME limited function they use it for, as the free, legal, multi-platform alternative can, but they don't. Why? Branding. That application has loyal users and they're not budging. Debate it all you want. They're not budging.

Just like i don't see MS Office going away, or even losing it's dominant position, nor do I see that for AutoCad or Quickbooks, and definitely certain video games.

When people such as you and I say, "linux has plenty of capable software" that may be true. But the problem is 1) when talking about advanced image, video and audio editting linux lacks, and what linux does have, they have to fight branding and marketing of dominant players, and those people coming over need to re-train themselves, not just on the OS but on the apps themselves. The apps, depending on the work can take much more time than learning the OS. Secondly, when people such as yourself or I say that, we say that about OUR needs and OUR experience.

Try working in a marketing department for a mid-sized to large corporation and tell me after one week how well Linux works out for you. Same thing for being an Accountant. Or an insurance agent who has to use a ton of proprietary software made by the insurance companies they represent and shop their customers around to.

There's a large software library out there most people in the FOSS world online has never even begun to stumble across that is absolutely essential.

Linux has a 1%-2.5% (at best) market share. Linux advocates generally agree that they want the base to grow. Well.. you're not going to do that by staying the course with the free software only (or mostly) mentality. You're not going to do that by not recognizing the dominant players that you're up against, not just in the OS world but in terms of applications.

From my perspective, my machine is blinged out to hell. I have office apps, web browsers, no spyware, no viruses, i'm secure and stable. It cost me nothing. When this isn't good enough to grow, you gotta ask.. what else do you need. B/c if Linux devs keep repeating the same actions and expect different results, they're insane.

[bp1509]

Companies wont make Linux drivers for Linux until more people are using Linux...

But...

People wont use Linux until companies make more drivers for Linux...



Just trying to understand this here.

If the Windows driver can be used in linux (easily), that can increase the user base, which can attract the hardware vendors to make native drivers that would perform better, it's not exactly a paradox. It's basic market principle.

[gn2]

People will buy Linux equipped devices when they are made available.

Asus Eee701's sold like hot cakes and Asus couldn't build them fast enough.

In the UK a popular high street retailer has started adding Linux compatible to the descriptions of peripherals.
I think this is in response to the Linux netbooks that are becoming popular.

For example: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0960717/c_1/1|category_root|Office,+PC+and+phones|9555804.htm

[wrtpeeps]

One would hope that Mr Shuttleworth doesn't think that all Ubuntu needs is a bit of eye candy to turn it into a mainstream os.

[bp1509]

Number 1 ..... http://easylinuxwifi.org/ .....?

it's been submitted to brainstorm for a while now :)
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11220/

[Sealbhach]

In the UK a popular high street retailer has started adding Linux compatible to the descriptions of peripherals.
I think this is in response to the Linux netbooks that are becoming popular.

For example: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0960717/c_1/1|category_root|Office,+PC+and+phones|9555804.htm

This is what potential Linux users need to be seeing. Makes people trust in it. Looking pretty does help too - but like everybody says - it's what works on Linux that really matters.


.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I voted for eye candy; however, I think Ubuntu has enough desktop effects. I do think that a better looking desktop will help a lot when it comes to getting new users. The default desktop needs some work as that is what people see most often.

I changed the theme, fonts, and icons on my Gutsy laptop to something more appealing/glossy. My wife saw the new desktop and gave me a strange look. She thought I was running something other than Ubuntu. She new it wasn't Vista because it looked better than Vista. She also knew that it wasn't OS-X because my computer isn't a MAC.

Those of us that use Linux can modify the desktop; however, what people see in retail stores is the default.

[bodhi.zazen]

Threads merged.

[hanzomon4]

Ubuntu is already pretty close, the problem is that crashes/bugs/jumbled audio subsystems take away from the experience. You know the kind of issues that force you to fix the OS as opposed to use it. There also needs to be an easier way for closed drivers to integrate with the kernel without needing to recompile them when the kernel is upgraded; installing the Nvidia drivers from Nvidia is the easiest way to kill X..... down the road, and new users won't know what happened.

Really... looks wise Ubuntu+compiz+screenlets+GTK2 is great and not where Ubuntu falls to OSX. It's the fact that Linux often feels like disconnected joints but looks great. OSX feels like one solid product.... I know they have the hardware edge. Ubuntu needs to address this somehow. Perhaps by working with oems(?) to get some of their products "linux certified" so that when someone wants to jump into linux they don't have to check every single major component for compatibility.

[Riffer]

Agreed that the basic you get on a fresh install is a bit plain. But I don't agree that its a show stopper. What I do agree with is the lack of marketing, that and a paradigm shift in peoples thinking. Face it most believe that in order to get something good you have to PAY for it. To get something as good as Ubuntu/linux for free is beyond peoples understanding.

If there was some slick ads (like apple) on prime time tv and in various other medias, I think there could be a turn around. All we have now area few things on youtube and OEM vendors apologizing that Ubuntu isn't windows.

[DJ_Peng]

That's entirely possible, especially when you consider how we whupped the Rockies one day then got our butts handed to us the very next day. But it will be good to play someone outside of our division again.

My prediction? Dodgers take the series (barely) thanks to Colletti finally getting sick and tired of the lack of production by Andru Jones. And yes, I do know Jones did fairly well yesterday. For a change. :)

[Canis familiaris]

That's entirely possible, especially when you consider how we whupped the Rockies one day then got our butts handed to us the very next day. But it will be good to play someone outside of our division again.

My prediction? Dodgers take the series (barely) thanks to Colletti finally getting sick and tired of the lack of production by Andru Jones. And yes, I do know Jones did fairly well yesterday. For a change. :)

:confused:

[Hells_Dark]

Terminal emulators can look nice too, you know...

Totally agree. Transparent terminals are sexy.

[Canis familiaris]

Totally agree. Transparent terminals are sexy.

I agree

[vishzilla]

IMO, Its not about how Linux can be beautiful but how you can make it beautiful :) . One thing I like about Linux is the flexible interface. I have 3 different sessions of GNOME, Openbox and IceWM, all of them are different and beautiful in their aspects.

[zmjjmz]

My desktop already _is_ nicer than OSX

[Koori23]

The Cardinals will slaughter you Aug. 5-7!

...I hope :)

No No.. I want the Cards and the Brewers to sink in the ranks like quicksand. Ya know, kinda like my Cubbies are doing right now.

[artir]

I agree
I agree with you.
PD: XD

[artir]

I agree

Me too.

[quinnten83]

That's entirely possible, especially when you consider how we whupped the Rockies one day then got our butts handed to us the very next day. But it will be good to play someone outside of our division again.

My prediction? Dodgers take the series (barely) thanks to Colletti finally getting sick and tired of the lack of production by Andru Jones. And yes, I do know Jones did fairly well yesterday. For a change. :)

The earth Andru Jones walks on is worshipped by the people on the island he was born and raised on. Even I worship that ground, despite the fact that I think baseball is the worlds most boring sport next to criquet and curling..
He is not doing so hot now, but he used to be good at what he did....
I am from the same island.

[quinnten83]

I think this is funny coming from the man that refuses to abandon the brown and orange theme....

[Chame_Wizard]

The brown and orange theme is ....hell

prefer the blue one:Kubuntu:lolflag:

[acelin]

i believe he wants something nice like newWave:


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-intrepid2_thumb.jpg


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave

I laughed hard at that. Too bad it looks to much like Windows.

[acelin]

My desktop already _is_ nicer than OSX

No.

[billgoldberg]

Linux is pretty.

Sure not all distos are nice "out-of-the-box". Ubuntu with it infamous brown-orange theme being one of them.

Distro's like Sabayon, eAR OS, Elive, ...

Hell, my Fluxbox setup looks nicer than OSX, let alone my gnome one with compiz fusion.

Aren't people tired of the same old style all Apple related products are using?

[billgoldberg]

No.

Explain.

[olskar]

What do you think? ;)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/shuttleworth_apple_challenge/

Edit: Noticed I was a bit late; http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=868046

[acelin]

Explain.

Sorry I havent seen yours- I thought you said "It" meaning Ubuntu or Linux in general.

[cardinals_fan]

Sorry I havent seen yours- I thought you said "It" meaning Ubuntu or Linux in general.
Which would still just represent your personal opinion...

[Canis familiaris]

What do you think? ;)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/shuttleworth_apple_challenge/

While I think this is great, I hope the do not bloat Ubuntu too much in this process.

[acelin]

Most people's opinion. Read the blogs, the news - most people dont like how Linux looks.

[cardinals_fan]

It's kind of sad when the same topic appears multiple times on the front page of the Café.

EDIT: I see that the OP has realized that the topic already existed. Disregard the above ;)

[Canis familiaris]

Most people's opinion. Read the blogs, the news - most people dont like how Linux looks.

Most people dont like XP's look either and love the look of Vista. But they still choose XP.
Whats my point?
Eye Candy is secondary to usability, speed, and stability.
Of Course, eye candy without bloat would also be taken. :)

[acelin]

Eye Candy isnt needed for a better theme. You dont use COmpiz to make things better looking- it lies mostly with fonts, icons, and the Gtk. Compiz just adds effects.

[acelin]

While I think this is great, I hope the do not bloat Ubuntu too much in this process.

You dont have to bloat. A Gtk can be made better; a metacity can be made better; fonts will be changed; icons can be changed. No need to bloat.

[motang]

I say go for it. I think eye candy and simplicity is what attracts the general public. It will be interesting to see what comes out in the next year or two.

[cardinals_fan]

You dont have to bloat. A Gtk can be made better; a metacity can be made better; fonts will be changed; icons can be changed. No need to bloat.
I think that regular GNOME Ubuntu could take a couple hints from Xubuntu in this regard. The regular Tango icons are lightyears better than the modified Human icons.

[50words]

(I like this title better than the other thread.)

I applaud this comment by Shuttleworth, and I really hope they go for it. Although I don't mind the Ubuntu interface, it is still just barely hanging with Windows XP on the "style" scale. It can and should do better.

[newbie2]

I have no idea, maybe some Intel big wigs are old school Red Hat users?

Hohndel pointed out that RPM packages include licence information; the DEB package management as used by Ubuntu and Debian doesn't have this information in the package files.
http://www.heise-online.co.uk/open/Intel-switches-from-Ubuntu-to-Fedora-for-Mobile-Linux--/news/111166

[Mazza558]

The ideal theme is always one that doesn't get in the way or distract you from whatever you're doing - but at the same time looks great if actually studied or looked at. It needs to create a sense of awe for those moving from OSX/Windows onto Linux, but be easy to work with and even easier to forget.

[Chame_Wizard]

At least you can customize everything on free will

[Icehuck]

The ideal theme is always one that doesn't get in the way or distract you from whatever you're doing - but at the same time looks great if actually studied or looked at.

There are a lot of people who don't get this concept when designing themes.

[Mazza558]

There are a lot of people who don't get this concept when designing themes.

Like whoever designed this:

http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/85037-1.jpg

*eyes have melted*

[cardinals_fan]

Like whoever designed this:

http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/85037-1.jpg

That's revolting.

[bruce89]

Hohndel pointed out that RPM packages include licence information; the DEB package management as used by Ubuntu and Debian doesn't have this information in the package files.

Complete rubbish. Proper conforming Debian packages have a copyright file (debian/copyright).

[myusername]

but wouldn't that mean that we would have to go in and manually change applications default style? i am all for this idea but i could take a long time...longer than it will take intrepid to be released

[50words]

but wouldn't that mean that we would have to go in and manually change applications default style? i am all for this idea but i could take a long time...longer than it will take intrepid to be released

Well he did say he wanted to do this over the next two years.

[myusername]

ahh ok didnt see that

[DJ_Peng]

Like whoever designed this:

http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/85037-1.jpg

*eyes have melted*
Holy crap! I think I'm blind.

[Sealbhach]

Like whoever designed this:

http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/85037-1.jpg

*eyes have melted*

LOL!! That's perfect! That's the look I didn't know I really wanted until I saw it.


.

[cardinals_fan]

The ideal theme is always one that doesn't get in the way or distract you from whatever you're doing - but at the same time looks great if actually studied or looked at. It needs to create a sense of awe for those moving from OSX/Windows onto Linux, but be easy to work with and even easier to forget.
This theme (http://www.compiz-themes.org/content/show.php/Simple+%26+Nice?content=62864) is a good example. A non-transparent Metacity version shouldn't be too hard to create.

[olskar]

Personally I don't think for example Mac OS looks very bloated, but Vista does :neutral:

[aysiu]

I don't know if Mark Shuttleworth would go for it, but I'd advocate for a Canonical store - like an open source Apple store, basically.

I wrote a blog post about it, in case anyone's interested:
Ubuntu: The Open Source Apple Challenger? (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/ubuntu-the-open-source-apple-challenger/)

[bruce89]

I don't know if Mark Shuttleworth would go for it, but I'd advocate for a Canonical store - like an open source Apple store, basically.

All we need is some B-list celebrities endorsing Ubuntu or some silly abstract TV adverts. Another possibility would be some smug git rambling on about how great Ubuntu is.

Interestingly, University Challenge this Monday had a question about the GNU OS. Unfortunately, no-one knew the answer.

[bp1509]

I don't know if Mark Shuttleworth would go for it, but I'd advocate for a Canonical store - like an open source Apple store, basically.

I wrote a blog post about it, in case anyone's interested:
Ubuntu: The Open Source Apple Challenger? (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/ubuntu-the-open-source-apple-challenger/)

I think the idea of a store is a top notch idea. :)

[aysiu]

I think the idea of a store is a top notch idea. :)
Unfortunately, not everyone agrees.

Take a look at the votes on the Physical Canonical Store idea on Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8518/).

[bruce89]

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees.

Take a look at the votes on the Physical Canonical Store idea on Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8518/).

Negative numbers are better IMHO.

[aysiu]

Negative numbers are better IMHO.
So true. I often wonder who all these people are who are voting things down on Brainstorm. The people on the forums seem reasonable enough folks. Are they two vastly different populations?

[madjr]

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees.

Take a look at the votes on the Physical Canonical Store idea on Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8518/).

seems people like an "apple-like" online store better (faster and easier to implement and more cost-effective maybe?)

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3575/

[aysiu]

seems people like an "apple-like" online store better (faster and easier to implement and more cost-effective maybe?)

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3575/
That's also a great idea, but one of the nice things about a physical store is that people can see the product in action before buying it.

Most people are already suspicious of products they've never heard of. They'll be far less likely to buy said products sight unseen.

[Joeb454]

I have to agree, it is nice to be able to go in and use a product before buying it.

I asked to use an indentical laptop before I bought mine ;) Luckily I didn't get caught running various commands on Vista ;)

[madjr]

That's also a great idea, but one of the nice things about a physical store is that people can see the product in action before buying it.

Most people are already suspicious of products they've never heard of. They'll be far less likely to buy said products sight unseen.

i couldn't agree more

i also voted it up

But they can't be as controlling as Apple in terms of their own computer branding. In this term it needs to stay a free market.

for example they could rent shelve space to the hardware vendors and let them compete for costumers: System76 vs Zareason vs Dell's offerings vs "other", etc.

just like they are doing online now

This way Canonical can offer something very similar to the Mac experience (the local friendly store) + the Windows experience (the free market for price and features competition)

[bp1509]

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees.

Take a look at the votes on the Physical Canonical Store idea on Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/8518/).

well i voted it up. cheers.

[artir]

I agree with the idea of the Physical Store. But I disagree with the idea of doing large-scale marketing right now. I think is possible to do it now. Canonical have enought money to do some ads. BUT we don't want mainstream in linux right now? (O rly?. Ya rly.) Imagine mr X. download ubuntu and finds that his wifi don't work. He can get help and fix the problem (a few people do it) or saying "Linux suckzz!" and reinstalling XP.

In 2 years maybe, the hardware won't be a problem. That, coupled with the possible art overhaul I felt is going to happen for 9.04 (I bet for Jumpy Jackal) will make Ubuntu near perfect. That's the moment to open stores and do marketing.

[madjr]

I agree with the idea of the Physical Store. But I disagree with the idea of doing large-scale marketing right now. I think is possible to do it now. Canonical have enought money to do some ads. BUT we don't want mainstream in linux right now? (O rly?. Ya rly.) Imagine mr X. download ubuntu and finds that his wifi don't work. He can get help and fix the problem (a few people do it) or saying "Linux suckzz!" and reinstalling XP.

In 2 years maybe, the hardware won't be a problem. That, coupled with the possible art overhaul I felt is going to happen for 9.04 (I bet for Jumpy Jackal) will make Ubuntu near perfect. That's the moment to open stores and do marketing.

what we need to market is pre-installed solutions and give better support to OEM (maybe create an OEM version, like ubuntu netbook remix is)

[aysiu]

what we need to market is pre-installed solutions and give better support to OEM (maybe create an OEM version, like ubuntu netbook remix is)
Exactly. People won't complain about wireless not working if you are marketing preinstalled solutions.

At that point, if they want to install XP, they'll see just how easy staying with Ubuntu is by comparison, as the preinstalled Ubuntu solution won't come with all the XP driver CDs.

[23meg]

So true. I often wonder who all these people are who are voting things down on Brainstorm. The people on the forums seem reasonable enough folks. Are they two vastly different populations?

My impression is that they're largely overlapping.

The explanation here is that any idea with the words "Apple", "Microsoft" or "Windows" in the first two sentences (since those are pretty much the only ones most people seem to read) it is guaranteed to get voted down to hell. The vague ones with short descriptions naturally suffer more.

A click to vote an idea down costs two seconds at most. A post to denote disagreement with any amount of intelligence higher than "That's wrong and you suck" costs a couple of minutes of typing and thinking at least.

[aysiu]

Very true, 23meg.

I think a better implementation would be to have the Idea Pool on these forums be the Brainstorm part of Ubuntu. People throw out ideas, anything that pops into their heads. Others weigh in the pros and cons, help the OP refine the idea and possibly identify bug reports or "ideas" that are not implementable ideas or are too vague.

If the OP gets enough encouragement, she can post it to the Ubuntu User Ideas site, which would be what Brainstorm is now, except ideas that sprung from the idea pool, instead of the 11,000 piles of garbage that are there now.

People registered at Ubuntu User Ideas would vote on the ideas with Up, Down, or No opinion, and then the developers could take a look at the ideas with the most votes and give some feedback on whether they think those ideas will be implemented any time soon or not.

Of course, if I proposed this idea at Brainstorm, it would be immediately voted down.

[23meg]

That would be just adding another filter layer of qualification, and wouldn't address the underlying problems, which are much more deeply rooted than the number of ideas and consequently, the amount of garbage, and are partially rooted outside Brainstorm.

Having spent plenty of time on Brainstorm posting feedback and doing moderation in the last few weeks, I have enough mental notes to make a long post on the "Ubuntu Brainstorm is a mess" thread, but haven't found the time and motivation. Hopefully I will in the coming days.

[sdowney717]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/shuttleworth_apple_challenge/

Ubuntu is going to be undergoing a lot of visual improvements.
I think this is a great idea.

[niyonk]

I think it is a bad idea :(

What is going to happen to the good o' terminal.
People will see the thing as DOS 15 years back lol

On the other hand, since Vista is based on nothing but graphix I wonder what M$ will bring as an excuse for their next OS ;)

[aysiu]

I've merged a few of these threads on the same topic.

[sicofante]

I'd like to ask Mr. Shuttleworth how many of his 100+ employees at Canonical are devoted to create the best possible user interaction design (leading Gnome and even forking it if necessary) and how many illustration artists are working on the pure aesthetics part.

If he's hoping for hobbyists to make the job for him, I can guarantee Mac will still be better not only two years from now, but probably for ever.

[fluteflute]

I'd like to ask Mr. Shuttleworth how many of his 100+ employees at Canonical are devoted to create the best possible user interaction design (leading Gnome and even forking it if necessary) and how many illustration artists are working on the pure aesthetics part.Canonical has 130 employees - although to be honest I have no idea what they all do! Probably most of them are part of the support operation.

[sicofante]

Maybe he should disclose some of this information, instead of being so bold and vague at the same time. If he had stated something like "we have hired the best team of user interaction experts and artists (this name, this name and this name) because we're committed to lead the way in the Linux desktop user experience" would be a little bit more believable. I certainly hope he's not trying to convince his target audience (I understand that's the ordinary computer desktop user) that the snail pace of the current committee design paradigm will take the Ubuntu desktop beyond Apple's in two years...

A few words on expected growth during that period wouldn't have hurt either. Something like "we'll get to half of Apple's market share in two years by doing this and this and that". Or something like "Novell, Redhat and Canonical have reached agreements on desktop standards to push Linux as the platform of choice". I mean, some "real world" and "factual" statements, instead of "preaching to the choir" comments. How can anyone believe a Linux desktop will suddenly break the 1% barrier and be better than it's next competitor (Mac OSX) by just doing exactly the same the Linux designers have been doing the past 15 years with this very little success?

I somewhat feel Shuttleworth, while brave, is not the right man to lead the Linux desktop revolution... Of course I'm crossing my fingers to be wrong.