One of Linux's biggest lessons: Don't preach, mention

[smartboyathome]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

[23meg]

I agree.

Mention, and if the person is interested, help get them started by doing an install and some post-install orientation, as well as assuring them of at least a degree of further support if they need it.

Preaching is all talk. A mention, along with an offer of setting things up and free support in person, is a proposal with potential for concrete action and actual results, which the person is free to accept or decline. It's also a gift, since you're offering to devote part of your finite time and energy to improve someone else's life.

[RiceMonster]

This needs to be read by a lot of people. Linux is great, but not for everyone, and it's not worth your time trying to get everyone to switch. If someone does become interested, tell them what's good about it, what isn't, and that they could run into some problems so they won't get angry if they run into problems if they do decide to try it out.

[smartboyathome]

This needs to be read by a lot of people. Linux is great, but not for everyone, and it's not worth your time trying to get everyone to switch. If someone does become interested, tell them what's good about it, what isn't, and that they could run into some problems so they won't get angry if they run into problems if they do decide to try it out.

Perhaps a sticky here or something? Or a campaign where it is posted in your signature if you like it?

[RiceMonster]

I'll be happy to link to this in my signature :).

[Canis familiaris]

I have stop preaching Linux now. I only use it myself now.
But this does not stop me from making fun of my friends when they struggle from virii and spyware in Windows. (but I help them even with Windows neverthless) :D

[smartboyathome]

I have stop preaching Linux now. I only use it myself now.
But this does not stop me from making fun of my friends when they struggle from virii and spyware in Windows. (but I help them even with Windows neverthless) :D

Its fine to do it with your friends if they know you are just having fun. Its just I have seen a rise in people crossing the line between preaching and mentioning lately, and wanted to help them recognize what they are doing isn't really helping.

[loell]

heh, blame that to desktop cube and wobbly windows effects, because every time a new user sees it they always thought its very cool that everybody should have it. :tongue:

[smartboyathome]

heh, blame that to desktop cube and wobbly windows effects, because every time a new user sees it, they always thought its very cool that everybody should have it. :tongue:

Like most things in life, its a blessing and a curse. ;)

[barbedsaber]

I used to preach, and I put a couple of people off of it. Now, I just use it on the bus and stuff, and dont make my theme look like vista, or mac, people ask questions, and I answer. I give 'em a live cd, and explain they can boot from the cd, and when they do that, it will be slow as all hell. but they can install it, and if they follow the instructions, they can keep windows. The buety of it is, I see them again the next day, or the next week, and can keep answering questions.
Every day is a good day to use Ubuntu.

[madjr]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

@smartboyathome

i have to agree with you totally that this is typical human behavior

But is not only linux, it's everything !

Global Warming has been mentioned over and over for over 50 years ! Now, the new generations are thought to be more conscious, but still BIG OIL MEGACORPS want to keep drilling, governments start wars, etc.

We didn't care for wildlife till many species got extinct!

We didn't care for the ozone layer till skin Cancer cases increased dramatically.

We didn't care for Road safety till thousands upon thousands have died in "preventable" accidents..

Educating the newer generations to take better choices is the Key, plain and simple.

It's harder to show old dogs new tricks, teach the young ones or whom really want to learn.

People who Choose FOSS are also more responsible with other Human beings, with our society, think more in the planet and in the future of Human Kind.

FOSS is the right thing to do.

and like @smartboyathome said, get the word out gently so people don't get scared away.

i too get scared of "aggressive preachers"

[RiceMonster]

I really don't think Linux adoption is as important an issue as the environment, though. Not really comparable.

[FuturePilot]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

Agreed. That's why I never push Linux on anyone. I might give it a mention but I don't force it on anyone. When people use it and see the benefits for themselves first hand they will make their own decision. I mean I installed Ubuntu on the computer just for myself pretty much and my mom started using it. She felt it worked better than Windows and now she doesn't like using Windows. And I didn't have to do anything. It's best to just let someone try it out and see how they like and let them decide. Let Linux do the talking, it speaks for itself pretty much. There is no need to preach.

[bmac]

Big difference between preaching and enlightening. Many people don't even know that there may be an alternative to Windows.

Often times during a conversation, I've informed people of alternative options. Not just OS's but designs, concepts, etc. If presented properly this is usually received as constructed and beneficial. I for one appreciate being informed of alternatives and believe that many solutions are found in the sharing information and ideas,

A wise man once told me: "Don't ever underestimate the power of words".....:-k

[madjr]

I really don't think Linux adoption is as important an issue as the environment, though. Not really comparable.

you don't see the "BIG picture".

FOSS is not about an OS or 1 app, it's about choice and open standards.

go back in time to the early 1950's and talk about the environment, wildlife, ozone, global warming etc. and they would tell you to "get lost, wtf you talking about".

We used to think that people just naturally died, now we have names for those silent diseases: Cancer, etc.

How many Women were burned alive just because someone accused them of being witches...

Fighting for Open standards is not so important "Now", but it will in the not so distant future.

Software will be everywhere even in our bodies and in all aspects of our lives. Imagine closed source software literally embedded in you brain or organs, imagine your life and that of millions really Dependant and monopolized.

Our Grand kids will thank those who fought for FOSS, Open standards and who created a base for transparency in the industry.

like it or not we are creating an alternative base for the future. Is Not about linux, but openness and transparency.

That's the big picture.

Remember that the first persons who believed the world was not flat were sentenced to prison and even to death.

Sure, we could just forget FOSS and open standards altogether and focus on getting the world more dependent on big software companies.

FOSS and choice is not important at all, is better to stay as sheep. Let those Big companies do w/e they want and take every decision for us. Is a lot easier to do what the masses do, why should i waste energy and use that thing called Brain

[smartboyathome]

Big difference between preaching and enlightening. Many people don't even know that there may be an alternative to Windows.

Often times during a conversation, I've informed people of alternative options. Not just OS's but designs, concepts, etc. If presented properly this is usually received as constructed and beneficial. I for one appreciate being informed of alternatives and believe that many solutions are found in the sharing information and ideas,

A wise man once told me: "Don't ever underestimate the power of words"..... :-k

Yes, though I think this falls under my "mentioning" category. I know it is kind of in between, but still. Some people just push too much, which is why I made this topic.

About environmental: I do agree FOSS is a standard, and generally agree with you. What you are saying really fits perfectly into an essay (more like article :p) that I wrote yesterday for my English class. I may post it on here in a day or two after I get feedback.

Last thing: Please, everyone, put this topic in your signatures if you have room. Help new people see this so that they don't start preaching and sending the wrong message. :KS

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Done! How does it look?

Indeed, that's something I have been doing for a while now. Besides that, people are much more willing to learn when they have, themselves, asked. If they aren't interested, they won't care -- and if they do care, they may easily forget. If that person gets something from you, instead of you dumping something on them, they will be much more satisfied with the idea.

[aysiu]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. This is true, and I think you're right in pointing out it doesn't apply to only Linux. With anything in life, when someone discovers something new and exciting, she naturally wants to convert other people to the same thing in order to share in the joy she experiences. But people don't like to be converted or evangelized to. It doesn't matter if it's religion or OS choice. People just want to be left alone. You can inform people of the existence of choices, but the aggressive conversion process has to go.

[Thirtysixway]

I preached and actually got someone to try it out.

But then again, it was more of a question/answer type thing and they wanted to know about it.

[dracule]

Actually, just yesterday while i was mowing, I was thinking this EXACT thing.



I was actually thinking about starting up a group with a couple of other people to help people properly advocate linux.


One of the biggest problems is that *most* linux supporters disrespect microsoft and apple. It is OK to dislike something, but when was the last time you liked being told that something you (may have) bought for a condiderable ammount of money was utter crap?

There needs to be a more mature linux crowd.

I was going to write a big long post about it here today, but then saw this :)

really weird. I honestly was just about to email my friends to start off making a website and stuff about this very topic. :P

[chucky chuckaluck]

zealotry is pretty offensive (in the tactical sense) and it usually gets a defensive response. i see learning as an offensive action (again, i mean that in the tactical sense). learning is usually the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. trying to shove something down someone's throat is likely to get a response along the lines of "i'd rather do it the wrong way than do it your way!"

[cardinals_fan]

Thank you for this thread. Anyone, for ANY reason, who thinks that they deserve to dictate what OS someone else uses is a jerk. So many people claim to believe in freedom and choice, and then proceed to stuff Linux down the throats and hard drives of their friends and family. LEAVE THEM BE! Please!

[RiceMonster]

you don't see the "BIG picture".
and so on and so forth

The point was, it's computer software, not life or death, whether life on earth will cease to exist, or whether people are not being given the right to live a real life. FOSS/Linux adoption is not nearly as important as if the earth is flat, women's rights or global warming. That is why we really should not have Linux/FOSS crusaders wasting so much of their time. I'm not saying I don't support FOSS, because I certainly do, I'm saying it's just not as big of an issue as people make it out to be, and Linux/FOSS users shouldn't be so concerned about whether people start adopting it or not. Let growth happen, but stop treating it like a major world issue.

[motang]

I can't lie, I have been there many years ago when I first started to use Ubuntu and from my experience I have learned the same thing. Don't preach but just mention the benefits and let the others know what you can do and what you can't do with it. By letting them know what they can't do they won't come back say well I can't do this. If you mention the limitations then they are acceptance to it and will be more willing to find newer ways of doing things so just accept the fact that an OS can't do every single thing they want it to do.

[ZarathustraDK]

I don't know whether preaching is good or bad.

I'm pretty sure that preaching is not an option when dealing with well-educated intelligent people, because they can see through the rhetor.

However, not all people are well-educated nor intelligent. Some people buy into that sullen form of rhetor, wrought in fallacies and palm-on-forehead-stupid kind of arguments. Should these people be allowed to be swallowed up by other 'speakers' whose agenda is a more nefarious and less benevolent than that of the FOSS-agenda?

Logic and argumentation-theory should be obligatory in elementary-school, it's infinitely more useful than religion-class, homeroom-class and the likes.

[aysiu]

It's possible that some people might be generally well-educated and intelligent but not so much so when it comes to computers. I know quite a number of people like this, actually.

Even though these people use computers all day at work; and use computers to keep in touch with friends, organize personal photo and music collections, and shop; they still don't feel computers are worth investing time and energy to get to be well educated about.

[Sporkman]

I had my wife use ubuntu at one point. Unfortunately, whenever something went wrong, she told me like it was my fault & expected me to fix it. So whenever Firefox hung, tomboy crashed, etc, I heard an earful.

Since then, I've bought her a Mac, so now whenever something goes wrong, I raise my hands in a "denial of culpability" gesture.

[Canis familiaris]

It's possible that some people might be generally well-educated and intelligent but not so much so when it comes to computers. I know quite a number of people like this, actually.

Even though these people use computers all day at work; and use computers to keep in touch with friends, organize personal photo and music collections, and shop; they still don't feel computers are worth investing time and energy to get to be well educated about.

Yes I know a lot of people like that too.
But the sad fact is that they DO invest time and energy on things they could really avoid and do not realise that a simple learning curve would save them even more time.

[madjr]

The point was, it's computer software, not life or death, whether life on earth will cease to exist, or whether people are not being given the right to live a real life. FOSS/Linux adoption is not nearly as important as if the earth is flat, women's rights or global warming. That is why we really should not have Linux/FOSS crusaders wasting so much of their time. I'm not saying I don't support FOSS, because I certainly do, I'm saying it's just not as big of an issue as people make it out to be, and Linux/FOSS users shouldn't be so concerned about whether people start adopting it or not. Let growth happen, but stop treating it like a major world issue.

In its time People were happy with the World being FLAT, so why did a few placed their life in jeopardy and fight to change people's minds?

In its time "women's rights" didn't matter

Until just recently no one cared about "global warming", even after 50 years of scientist lecturing about it over and over.

those 3 issues you mentioned were NOT important in their time either.

FOSS will gain importance in society, to the point it will be as the 3 above. 10 years ago no one gave a damn. Now look at it.

i do agree with you that linux is just an OS the same way firefox is just a browser.

but am not into FOSS because of linux or firefox, am in for the freedom of choice and open standards.

i could care less if my neighbor uses linux or windows.

what i care about are the Big world organizations, governments and educational institutions. adopting FOSS, openness and standards.

[Jadd]

This is very true. I found out too late. I had decided that Ubuntu had too many hassles for me to recommend it to people (unless it's preinstalled), but I mentioned it every now and then. Two of my friends now use Ubuntu, one of which used to make fun of me for it. This is despite my cautioning them about new driver issues... Just by using it and discussing it, I was spreading Ubuntu, I didn't realise how many people want an alternative. The first friend wanted Ubuntu because it was more secure, and the second because he was bored with Windows (I think). I help them with their Ubuntu related questions, but at least I don't feel responsible for any difficulties they might encounter, they chose Ubuntu by themselves.

[23meg]

The point was, it's computer software, not life or death, whether life on earth will cease to exist, or whether people are not being given the right to live a real life. FOSS/Linux adoption is not nearly as important as if the earth is flat, women's rights or global warming. That is why we really should not have Linux/FOSS crusaders wasting so much of their time. I'm not saying I don't support FOSS, because I certainly do, I'm saying it's just not as big of an issue as people make it out to be, and Linux/FOSS users shouldn't be so concerned about whether people start adopting it or not. Let growth happen, but stop treating it like a major world issue.

Who has control over the way we compute, store and infer from information that we process is "a matter of life and death" from a certain political perspective, and FOSS is of central importance with regards to this. You're of course absolutely entitled not to share such a view, but you won't see much sympathy for belittling or bashing people who subscribe to it for believing in and working for things they find worth achieving either. That's zealotry too, just working the opposite way.

[CryptSphinx]

Couldn't agree more with the original post - The way I have 'converted the heathens to the rightous path ' is to mention in passing (whenever fixing their computers) that I'm glad I don't have problems like theirs (spyware,viri,inane restrictions) with my computer.

aha! says [person] 'you are of the technical mind - of course you can avoid these problems'

no , I use ubuntu, its a type of linux

*pause*

[person] . whats ubuntu/linux
. is it hard to use
. how much does it cost
. will it work on my machine

[me] I think I have a disk on me *rummages in bag for collection
of live disks*



ten mins later the person is often sitting down to a dual boot enviornment enjoying using adept / synaptic.

$person .all this **** is FREE??
.I can make .doc's with open office
.This thing has firefox!


This is how my dad, aunt , cousin and neighbour are hooked :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
of course I wouldn't have gotten anywhere by badmouthing the hell out of
windows (what they were all using), generally I tell them that they cant game on *nix, but then 'remember' that wine can run some games.my aunt ditched her windows partition since she doesn't game and could do everything else in ubuntu.


I find it better to actually be honest about what the OS cant do , while showing them what it can.

my goal is to help the user get the most out of their hardware and save myself from being called over to fix their machines every three months.

[smartboyathome]

I find it better to actually be honest about what the OS cant do , while showing them what it can.

That is because it makes you seem more honest and believable. Same way with giving characters in books weaknesses, if they have none then people will be less likely to 'believe' what they read.

[Canis familiaris]

That is because it makes you seem more honest and believable. Same way with giving characters in books weaknesses, if they have none then people will be less likely to 'believe' what they read.
Exactly. However the 'tone' of mentioning the drawbacks should also be in a way that the listner does not immediately back off.

[LeoSolaris]

Agreed! When it comes to religion, preaching at me simply irritates me. I try really hard to not preach my views, but I will share them if asked. (It took my soon to be wife nearly two years to discover all of my points of view on religion)

I definitely think it is a wiser course to refrain from waxing lyrically about Linux. Treating an OS as a religion and thumping it all the time like a bible is really not going to help bring people into the fold. ;)

[Canis familiaris]

Though a little late, Inspired by this post I wrote about this on my blog post (http://dogbuntu.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/dont-preach-linux-just-mention-it/)
More the people get this message, the better.

[dizee]

i think we all go through a sort of adjustment phase when linux is all new and exciting, and it's natural to start preaching to everyone about how great it is. after a while you calm down a bit and realise it's just an OS, though it's still great. most of us grow out of it anyway.

i'm generalising based on my own experiences but i think it holds true.

[Mateo]

good post by the thread starter.

[smartboyathome]

Thanks for everyone who posted. Would you all mind putting a link to this thread in your signatures? The more people who see this, the better. If you do, thanks. :KS


Though a little late, Inspired by this post I wrote about this on my blog post (http://dogbuntu.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/dont-preach-linux-just-mention-it/)
More the people get this message, the better.

Good blog post. Definately a nice read.


i think we all go through a sort of adjustment phase when linux is all new and exciting, and it's natural to start preaching to everyone about how great it is. after a while you calm down a bit and realise it's just an OS, though it's still great. most of us grow out of it anyway.

i'm generalising based on my own experiences but i think it holds true.

This is how I feel, too, but I also think that if this were mentioned to me, I would have been more careful. Just throwing it out so that the new people can at least see what they are doing.

[cardinals_fan]

Thanks for everyone who posted. Would you all mind putting a link to this thread in your signatures? The more people who see this, the better. If you do, thanks. :KS
I would, but my sig is so clean :)

[geogur]

the live cd approach works. i gave out a live cd to a friend who said oh! and put it away , then 1 week latter i saw this friend show another , look he said isn`t this cool . this was a windows user to windows user ! i was not in the picture all i did was plant the seed . they then came to me asking what is this?

[Northsider]

I always approach it this way. I mention that I use linux and leave it at that unless they throw a question at me. :-]

[adamogardner]

How about the elitist approach? Boast about how linux Is for "serious" users, a "toy for hackers" the "best", and "most secure." be Arrogant, and slightly secretive about how to get it. you'll have em eating out of the palm of your hands, and they'll be asking to get on board. Down right refuse, say "stick with windows kid" and walk away. They'll be lovin linux the next day.
Nah I'm not really a jerk, but linux Does have the juice to back an elitist appeal.

[smartboyathome]

How about the elitist approach? Boast about how linux Is for "serious" users, a "toy for hackers" the "best", and "most secure." be Arrogant, and slightly secretive about how to get it. you'll have em eating out of the palm of your hands, and they'll be asking to get on board. Down right refuse, say "stick with windows kid" and walk away. They'll be lovin linux the next day.
Nah I'm not really a jerk, but linux Does have the juice to back an elitist appeal.

This can have adverse side effects, though, since it does not work for everyone (I know it wouldn't work on me). I would just be like "Fine, take your crummy OS, I don't care about it, and was just wondering. >.>"

[adamogardner]

yes I agree. Not all appeals work the same on everyone. I would be offendded by my caracterization of implementing the "elitist appeal," However in real life, Computer hackers, linux users, and the sort are undeniably "underground" and therefore unknown, misunderstood, respected, and feared. lets see: we can assure people that linux makes them sexy. we can recount mohammed ali's testimonial, we can be informative like a Chiat Dei Advertisement. There are a few more. trust me, when I say, linux has the juice to attract. An opportunity to join the elite is not easily passed up. And in fact it will encourage competent users to learn about (and ultimately switch) to linux. eThis of course will lure incompetent users (like myself) also, but only those with a motivation to be great and unique at what they do. Telling someone that they can check their Email with Ubuntu (if thats all they do) isn't going to get them to switch. Telling them that it's free won't either. Telling them that they are not savvy enough, smart enough, and sexy enough, will get them to switch in rapid mode. Because it will then make them all of those things.
please recognize that my words are chosen to be colorful for the concept and not actually how I would write the copy on an elitist appeal.

[aysiu]

I made two blog posts about this recently:
Linux for home users - stop the hype! (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/linux-for-home-users-stop-the-hype/)
A New Desktop Linux Tactic: Play Hard to Get (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/a-new-desktop-linux-tactic-play-hard-to-get/)

[adamogardner]

quote from aysiu's blog titled, a new linux desktoop tactic; play hard to get: "Elitists make even those who have an open mind feel too intimidated to make what could be an easy transition".

What kind of elitists are you talking about? The ones who are kickass computer hackers, the ones who don't get viruses? The ones who are in a tight fraternity/community because we know we have something special to share with each other, The ones who are enlightened enough to have tried it in the first place? The list of linux users' constitutions goes on, and essentially the qualities are admirable (I'm speaking of you, reader!). I merely needed to want to be better with my computer, so I looked around and found a group of users who are in my opinion, elite. So I ask, " do I really care if someone is intimidated by those who are better off in this specific regard? We are talking about a wee minority of folks who need an appointment with a shrink.
I think of the icon where Tux is about to swat the butterfly. hehe I saw that before I knew Linux. It was elitist. Tux was strong, butterfly small and frail. WE CRUSH YOUR BUTTERFLY TUX SMASH PUNY BUG

[aysiu]

I have no idea what the rest of your post means, but I'll respond to this question:

What kind of elitists are you talking about? I'm talking about the kind of elitist who looks down on users who know less than she does.

[adamogardner]

oh yeah, those people suck. Community is key for this sort of project.8-[

[phoochka]

Agree completely with OP!

Hopefully more ubuntu users realize this.

[decoherence]

Not being preachy is a good thing in general, especially for an IT guy who people go to for advice. My form of 'preaching' is to simply use a tricked-out compiz configuration on my highly-visible workstation.

"What's that?"

"Linux. And it doesn't get viruses."

Sold!

On the other hand, I've had other people say "why didn't you tell me about Linux?" or even "why didn't you tell me Linux was so easy to use?" when they discover it. So I guess you can't win! :lolflag:

Also, I'll suggest Linux to users who can't seem to keep their Windows systems virus free. Start by giving them a live CD "just in case Windows won't boot." Sooner or later they'll pop it in and hopefully discover the goodness on their own (and maybe even just do the switch rather than bringing in their wintel for me to nuke again)

Anyway, good topic. Enjoyed reading the reponses.

[madjr]

Not being preachy is a good thing in general, especially for an IT guy who people go to for advice. My form of 'preaching' is to simply use a tricked-out compiz configuration on my highly-visible workstation.

"What's that?"

"Linux. And it doesn't get viruses."

Sold!

On the other hand, I've had other people say "why didn't you tell me about Linux?" or even "why didn't you tell me Linux was so easy to use?" when they discover it. So I guess you can't win! :lolflag:

Also, I'll suggest Linux to users who can't seem to keep their Windows systems virus free. Start by giving them a live CD "just in case Windows won't boot." Sooner or later they'll pop it in and hopefully discover the goodness on their own (and maybe even just do the switch rather than bringing in their wintel for me to nuke again)

Anyway, good topic. Enjoyed reading the reponses.

hehe

+1

[kuolas]

I think "Elephants Dreams" was about that: No force your thoughts on others. Go watch the movie:popcorn: It's hard to understand... so us humans it's hard to understand why these people complaint about their OS but, on the other hand there is no will to change... simple as that.

I preach, but not the way I used to... now I say what I have to say, respectful people listen to you and if they don't like what are you saying you should be respectful too... whit their opinions.

Everybody, in a way or in another "preach" what their thoughts... ones more violent than other (Politicians, News Papers, Microsoft... etc.) and others with respect (JWs, Forums (except when the "Flame" flag is on), Experienced Linux Users... )

Next time... invoke yourself with --noforce command line option.

[BOZG]

Unfortunately, some Linux users are trying to steal the crown of Mac users for most smug and obnoxious computer users. Thankfully, they remain a minority.

There's nothing more irritating than being in a chatroom or on a message forum and someone asks for help with some problem on Windows and someone replies with "You should use Linux" and begins ranting without even trying to help resolve what their immediate problem is. When you're wondering why something simple won't work and want to get it fixed, you're not going to install an entire new OS just to fix it!

[jnw222]

yeah if all the linux users just kept some live cds and let others used them..

[Redrazor39]

THANKS SO MUCH! I've wanted to post something like this for 8 months but I just couldn't think of the correct way of putting it.

This should be stickied.

[Atomic Dog]

I work with a few mac fanboys. If I hear "it works on my mac" or "if you had a mac ..." I'll go crazy.

Nobody wants to hear people preach how great their OS is and how bad yours sucks.

[gsmanners]

Amen, OP! Let's gets some more amens from you guys! ;)

/me just thinks this topic is *slightly* hypocritical

[Frak]

I've been wanting to post something like this for awhile, I just couldn't set it in a readable form.

Now we need a thread on when not to call a person informing you of being a linux-preacher a MS Fanboy.

[pi.boy.travis]

You wouldn't believe the number of people that look at my laptop and say "hey, is that Vista?"

[smartboyathome]

I've been wanting to post something like this for awhile, I just couldn't set it in a readable form.

Now we need a thread on when not to call a person informing you of being a linux-preacher a MS Fanboy.

lol, that is another thing, but they usually use M$ Fanboy, which is annoying. :(

[mikjp]

Shouldn't we all be preachers in the Church of Free Software? :)

Unfortunately, freedom of software means next to nothing for most people in the era of p2p networks. :(

m

[Methuselah]

Shouldn't we all be preachers in the Church of Free Software? :)

Unfortunately, freedom of software means next to nothing for most people in the era of p2p networks. :(



Yeah, it's very difficult to impose property rights on things that aren't really tangible property.

That's why it will be a never-ending struggle to get software/music etc. to behave like shoes and furniture.

[powerpleb]

Unfortunately, freedom of software means next to nothing for most people in the era of p2p networks. :(
It does when your legitimately bought software becomes more and more jammed with ways to ensure you are not stealing it, while the open source alternative does almost the same thing, faster and uses less space.

[mikjp]

It does when your legitimately bought software becomes more and more jammed with ways to ensure you are not stealing it, while the open source alternative does almost the same thing, faster and uses less space.

Why don't all the people living in the MS world then realize it? They just download a cracked version... Maybe they have not yet heard the Gospel of St. Richard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman)?

Greetings,

m

[smartboyathome]

Why don't all the people living in the MS world then realize it? They just download a cracked version... Maybe they have not yet heard the Gospel of St. Richard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman)?

Greetings,

m

Because a lot of them dont know they have a choice. Also, it isn't like a church, it is more like politics. Democrats and Republicans preach to each other all the time.

[mikjp]

Well, I live in a country where we have more than two political parties. The politicians don't preach here as they always have to be ready to agree on some level on political questions to be able to make something happen in a parlamentary democracy :lolflag:

m

[powerpleb]

Why don't all the people living in the MS world then realize it? They just download a cracked version...m
I think at least some of them do. They are just under the mistaken impression that things which are given away are not worth having.

[finer recliner]

bump to get this thread more attention

[iamBevan]

Top post - I totally agree

[powerpleb]

I just want to say that I think it's more productive and positive to encourage Windows users to use the open-source alternatives in Windows rather than confusing themselves all at once with a drastic change to Linux.
Most Windows users aren't going to want to install any OS, especially one they are completely unfamiliar with. But I find a lot of people are very interested when you mention to them that they can download say, OpenOffice and it does basically the same thing as the MS Office but without the $500+ price tag. Maybe in the future if they become more interested in open source then they will decide to give Linux a shot.

[Inane_Asylum]

For the first couple of weeks I started using Linux/Ubuntu, I started catching myself preaching (actually, my wife caught me preaching...:p). Now, I think I've got a good balance going on, usually pointing them to the Linux != Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) article, and explaining the major differences between the OSes (especially the "free" aspect of FOSS). This post also helps a lot in steering me clear of the Linux Fanboy fate. Thanks! :D

[NoVista]

Every day is a good day to use Ubuntu.


Nuff Said!

[mikjp]

Amen.

[Nostrafus]

*Shrug* I can't remember having ever preached OSS, or Linux in particular. I've debated it, but not "Oh you've gotta try it and here's why", or "OMFG, windows sucks, you're a moron if you use it" I use subtlety.

When a person has a question about a particular piece of software (I'm one of those go-to guys that friends send their friends to when they've got computer problems) say photoshop for example, even though I know full well how to use it, I say "Oh, I don't use photoshop, I use GIMP" and they'll say something like "What's that?" and I'll explain, including the $0 price tag, I'll throw in what I don't like about the program if they're use to photoshop (I still have to try to get it to be all docked in one window, photoshop just looks so much cleaner) but include a lot of the positive benefits of OSS, like being free.

Then if they seem interested, add on some of the other software that can be acquired for free, OpenOffice, Pidgin, the different games, the lack of viruses, the fact that every major distribution of Linux has by far the most helpful and friendly community I've ever seen, and I mention the free part a couple more times.

But I also do let people know that there is a bit of a learning curve if they want to do anything more than point & click, I ask them if they're familiar with DOS, and compare command line to DOS, but that the commands are different, and they can get most of what they need out of a $10 pocket handbook if they want to get deeper.

[BigSilly]

I honestly cannot overstate the need for veteran Linux users to be easy going to newcomers, and not preach at them to use it. Back when I was having trouble with my Windows XP (WGA trouble to be exact), I was pretty green with computers and installing stuff. I was very lucky - I had a mate who had a good idea what I needed my PC for, gave me a Linux disc, and said a simple "try this". He didn't preach any of the politics behind the system, or give me any fanboy crap. Just said it was completely free, and did everything I needed. He helped me install it since I had no idea about partitions etc, and even though I found it a bit strange at first (to say it was a culture shock after XP is an understatement!) I stuck with it. After WGA, I liked it's non-judgemental attitude towards the end user. I spent some more time learning about the history of it and how it works, and now I would never go back. I think if he'd come up to me and given me a load of insular fanboy babble I would've thought him strange, and gone back to Windows. As an end user, I got to find out for myself how great Linux is without being hit around the head with it, and I ran with it.

I think the Ubuntu forums are fantastic at this. There's the odd Linux-fundamentalist nutjob, but the vast majority of us here know exactly what it was like being the newcomer, and are empathic again to new Linux users. Really, Mark Shuttleworth ought to come on here and praise you guys, since I believe it's the forums that make this distro what it is. It's a massive, massive part of it's appeal, and has done the most amazing job in demystifying Linux, and making it simple, approachable and indeed preferable to Windows. You can't buy support like this.

My hat is doffed to you guys here. Truly.

=D>

[hufferd]

I just want to say that I think it's more productive and positive to encourage Windows users to use the open-source alternatives in Windows rather than confusing themselves all at once with a drastic change to Linux.
Most Windows users aren't going to want to install any OS, especially one they are completely unfamiliar with. But I find a lot of people are very interested when you mention to them that they can download say, OpenOffice and it does basically the same thing as the MS Office but without the $500+ price tag. Maybe in the future if they become more interested in open source then they will decide to give Linux a shot.

I would agree I have been using 8.04 now for about 5 months and while there have been some hard times with it I am really starting to like it. I also the other day - a friend of mine sent me a file from MS power point and they said oh I bet you can't open that........... Well it was so nice to be able to ssay "Yes I can and guess what it didn't cost me $500.00 to do it." :lolflag:

[wolfen69]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

i have to add one thing. not everyone is the same. some people wont respond at all, while some people actually dont mind being clubbed over the head. every person you meet is a different situation. you're saying that every opportunity to "convert" someone should be handled in the exact same way. nothing in life is cut and dry. use common sense, and SPREAD THE WORD!

[wolfen69]

There's the odd Linux-fundamentalist nutjob

that would be me. and proud of it.

[themissinglink1]

I completely agree. As a new user myself i understand the benefits of help. I am not that experienced with software/hardware and i had many problems but having an uncle who demonstrated his computer and offered to help me do the same really helped me to understand the OS and the differences between Ubuntu and XP/VISTA that i was completely used to and ignorant about other choices. He never forced Ubuntu on me but i became interested when seeing something that for me was not the norm.

Having this good experience with linux/ubuntu has only encouraged me to work through problems that may occur instead of becoming frustrated. I intend to also mention ubuntu to friends and family but only because i am so impressed with it. But from experience preaching to someone who maybe doesn't even know what linux is will only deter them when they face problems.

[Nostrafus]

Something else that I've thought to add is that something I have seen on forums under the several dozen distro's I've tried is the number of younger people who have probably seen anti-trust entirely too many times.

I'm not sure they quite understand that most of the people who use linux, and are out of that 16-21 year age range don't particularly care about "fighting the man", and that persecuting other companies under the delusion that they are some evil empire just leads to people looking at us like we're a bunch of nutjobs.

Most of the older crowd (I'm just barely in this range) just uses linux because it's fun, it's something to tinker with, it's more stable, it's more secure, holes are fixed in a few days rather than a few months or never, and that the idea that we're some sort of soldier on a digital battlefield for dominance of an OS is just absurd. People will use what people will use, all we can do is just go about our own business and hope better heads prevail.

[ColdSpider]

I fall into the age range you specified and it really is like that for the few people I know who use Linux, but for good reason. We all grew up using Windows and just sort of got used to dealing with the instabilities, and I know with me at least I eventually got sick of dealing with that kind of thing after my very new laptop crashed and just wanted to get an OS that wasn't Windows and I couldn't afford a Mac. Honestly, after using Ubuntu for a couple of days I've definitely come to recognize how fun it is to use and tinker around with, like you were saying. I really don't feel like I'm fighting Microsoft or anything since I already paid for their software since it came with my laptop, but I will admit that I enjoy having a computer running much better (in my opinion) without having to depend on an impersonal corporation (not that all corporations are evil or anything) but instead relying on fellow Ubuntu users and people who are somewhat like-minded for help and updates and such. I definitely think most people would be happier with Ubuntu if they took the time to get to know how to use it (which I don't think is that hard if you just put your mind to it), but I get how it can be a little scary to switch from an OS put together by one of the world's biggest and most successful corporations to one distributed free over the internet and uses open source.

[starcannon]

For family and friends that require my constant tech support at no charge, I don't preach, reason, or attempt in any way to convince them to use linux; I just rule with an iron fist. After spending a few weekends repairing their heavily infested machines, I generally just snap, backup their hdd contents, format it, put Ubuntu on, dump the contents in a folder in /home/username, get all the multimedia crap working, and then tell them if'n they don't like it they can take it up with "Geek Squad".

To date no complaints, and so far all smiling faces. I get a phone call every once in a great while asking "how do I install this new hardware thing I just bought"; I remote in, get it going, and then don't hear from them again until "new hardware thingy" or "upgrade to ubuntu x.xx" time.

[Vivaldi Gloria]

I disagree with both the "preaching" and "hard to get" viewpoints. You should be completely honest with advantages & disadvantages of linux. Linux may be suitable for some job but maybe not for another for practical reasons.

The following video contains good points on linux advocacy:

http://www.archive.org/details/NLUG-Jono-Talk-05-Apr-2006

[Daveski]

Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

It's Human Nature though. If you get a PS3 and a great game, you will probably tell all your friends - and maybe persuade them to get one too. If you are amazed at how good Ubuntu is and it excites you, you will probably feel the need to 'share' this with others.


Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

I agree with this. My philosophy to share Ubuntu with people I think might be interested (once we have chatted about it of course) is to:

1 - Give them a LiveCD.
2 - Point out that it is their choice to try or install Linux - and that is what Linux is all about: Choice.
3 - Advise that most of the time Linux is simple, but at times Linux will be difficult. The positive is that YOU will be in complete control of your computer and the data stored on it.

[mike1234]

I totally agree. I never preach. I have a few "live" distros I occasionally pop into a computer that blows peoples minds. Plus I love the conversations at work hearing people bitch about a virus or spyware on Windows. I mention that these problems don't really exist in Linux. I have given people live disks to try out. What can it hurt? I even converted my PC repair course professor in college if you can believe that. He now carries a live cd as part of his "toolkit". Awesome.

M.

[icyest]

You know, I would agree, but the philosophy behind your reasoning is wrong in my experience. If preaching has never worked before in the past, then can you explain evangelism?

It's simply persuasion, but it's effective.

I casually mention my Linux slowly to someone I meet. I do it with the best possible way, and it's the same tactic that got me interested, the cube. No one can deny that Linux has the best most awe inspiring breathtaking special effects ever! Everything from sky dome to wobbly windows, Vista can touch this!

My regards.

-7 year windows user, 2nd day using Ubuntu today :]
My motivation? Someone showed my that spinning cube thing and I never looked back.

[Frak]

You know, I would agree, but the philosophy behind your reasoning is wrong in my experience. If preaching has never worked before in the past, then can you explain evangelism?

Persuasion using fear. Some people happen to be dumb enough to believe that "There's a man in the clouds that's going to open up the Earth so they fall into a pit of fire". That way, they always follow scare tactics. That is the basic definition of Evangelism.

[aysiu]

No one has said that evangelism never works on anyone.

It's just that aggressive evangelism that's haphazard about its targets does more damage than good in the long run if your goal is to gain more "converts."

If you use "hellfire and brimstone" tactics with Christianity, sure you'll get some people to accept Christ out of fear (is that real faith?), but you'll scare off at least four out of every five people.

Same deal with the "Only idiots use Windows - switch to Linux" propaganda. Yes, if you preach that and you happen to get one person who is already falling into that mindset anyway, you may have given her just the push she needs to convert to Linux fully from Windows. In the meantime, many others will think you're an obnoxious zealot, and still others will believe you for a while, try Linux and be disappointed and then close their previously open minds to it forever.

[Frak]

No one has said that evangelism never works on anyone.

It's just that aggressive evangelism that's haphazard about its targets does more damage than good in the long run if your goal is to gain more "converts."

If you use "hellfire and brimstone" tactics with Christianity, sure you'll get some people to accept Christ out of fear (is that real faith?), but you'll scare off at least four out of every five people.

Same deal with the "Only idiots use Windows - switch to Linux" propaganda. Yes, if you preach that and you happen to get one person who is already falling into that mindset anyway, you may have given her just the push she needs to convert to Linux fully from Windows. In the meantime, many others will think you're an obnoxious zealot, and still others will believe you for a while, try Linux and be disappointed and then close their previously open minds to it forever.
Very well said, Aysiu.

[medic2000]

heh, blame that to desktop cube and wobbly windows effects, because every time a new user sees it they always thought its very cool that everybody should have it. :tongue:

No, not some people around. I've had an interesting and appealing theme, activated all fancy compiz effects and haven't even said him anything like "look it's superior than any OS" or "hey look great isn't it?".

Then what happened? Wait for the next episode...

No just kidding. The guy saw my monitor, looked it for 4 seconds and then turned his head and continue to do what he was doing before.

What a lovely person...

[uberdonkey5]

No, not some people around. I've had an interesting and appealing theme, activated all fancy compiz effects and haven't even said him anything like "look it's superior than any OS" or "hey look great isn't it?".

Then what happened? Wait for the next episode...

No just kidding. The guy saw my monitor, looked it for 4 seconds and then turned his head and continue to do what he was doing before.

What a lovely person...

well, I'd have felt the same. Don't think ubuntu should bother competing with windows for prettyness. Nice to have those options, but to me ubuntu (linux) has real advantages over windows.

Don't think its about preach or not preach, its about honesty. If you have a friend that is constantly complaining about the cost of software, the time it takes to run antivirus software in the background and the inability to really feel in control of his computer than definately you'd say to him.. look, ubuntu can help you with all those problems.

I agree that windows is right for some people, indeed the average user, but many people want more but are just not aware of ubuntu. Almost everyone I talk to about ubuntu has never heard of it before. They are not making a choice of operating system, because they are not aware they have a choice. I know I keep bashing away at pre-install ubuntu, but when people buy a computer and someone asks, "windows or ubuntu?" people will then start to think, well whats the difference, what is best for me?

[cardinals_fan]

No, not some people around. I've had an interesting and appealing theme, activated all fancy compiz effects and haven't even said him anything like "look it's superior than any OS" or "hey look great isn't it?".

Then what happened? Wait for the next episode...

No just kidding. The guy saw my monitor, looked it for 4 seconds and then turned his head and continue to do what he was doing before.

What a lovely person...
I would have done that too. I think the effects are silly.

Now, if you had shown me a minimal Xfce setup... :)

[Grams79]

I'll keep that suggestion in mind.
Look what happened here on this thread...
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=936077

[smartboyathome]

I'll keep that suggestion in mind.
Look what happened here on this thread...
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=936077

Yep, that is what I try to point out to people with this thread. Constantly pushing does no good like you suggest there. Like said in Ratatouille (the movie), "Food will come Remmy." Translated to this situation here "People will come." Just be patient and mention it once in a while, and eventually someone may come to you and ask you to install Linux for them.

[Chame_Wizard]

LIsten to the Linux Preaches
amen.

[cardinals_fan]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=936077
Fail.

[seancarlgrech]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS


well done! this i a great lesson for everyone around here!

will definitley add a link to this thread in my signature...

[gatherp]

You know, while I understand what is being said here, I cannot totally agree.

I know I have a different standpoint, and I will explain why, but this world still needs preachers, although not everybody should be one.

My perspective goes back 30 years, when I first logged into a UNIX system at University. PC's did not exist, Microsoft were still writing BASIC for Altair systems, and UNIX was an 'open system', at least in educational circles.

UNIX needed preachers. The OS world was aligned with hardware on lots of proprietary systems. UNIX changed this, by allowing a single OS to run on lots of different hardware, and software was written by enthusiasts and distributed for free to the community. People like myself got to love UNIX very quickly, and preached the faith wherever we went.

Eventually, suppliers like DEC, HP, and even the arch enemy IBM got to learn, leading to commercial versions of UNIX, Ultrix, HP/UX and AIX, and even SVR4 and OSF/1. We won, but it was only a little victory. UNIX became fragmented and corrupted, such that the big players tried to lock in customers by saying "UNIX is good, but look what we have added to make it better". Extensions became proprietary, UNIX was no longer UNIX, and even the faithful became corrupted in order to survive (even me, I am now an AIX specialist, using Ubuntu in my own business and at home).

Linux is now like UNIX was in the early '80s. There is a movement that knows Linux is good, but it is becoming fragmented. Extensions are being added, and even though GPL says that modifications need to be posted, additions that use no GPL code do not need to be put back in the public domain.

You only have to look at the way IBM are putting Linux into everything from their virtualisation hypervisors to their SVC products to see that it is becoming propritorized.

Where we need Linux preachers is to lead and motivate the Linux community, not in converting the uninitiated. We MUST AT ALL COSTS prevent fragmentation which would allow Linux to get lost like its forebear, UNIX. We also need a dominant Linux distro, because the uninitiated want a common OS, and Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE and the rest differ too much to be regarded as a single OS. I believe that Ubuntu should be that dominant distro.

Surely you think that Linus and Alan Cox, and even to some extent Richard Stallman (Open Source rather than Linux) are preachers. Linus seems sometimes to be single-handedly keeping the kernel community together.

In the mean time, I will continue to preach all things UNIX and Linux, all be it in a quiet fashion, and also continue to lead by example.

Good luck, and keep the faith.

Peter Gathercole

[cardinals_fan]

We also need a dominant Linux distro, because the uninitiated want a common OS, and Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE and the rest differ too much to be regarded as a single OS. I believe that Ubuntu should be that dominant distro.

Why would we need that? Is there a reason the 'uninitiated' need to use Linux?

[73ckn797]

Preaching is for when you are trying to reach a large audience. Living it is quite another thing. It is what people see day to day. It is what makes a person, when watching, take notice. Not because you are trying to be noticed but because you are just doing your thing and not stomping on others around you. It is then that they will want to know what makes you different. Then you can tell them about it because they asked.

[gatherp]

Why would we need that? Is there a reason the 'uninitiated' need to use Linux?

This is not the place to argue ideologies, but you must be aware that certain dominant players are trying to tie the whole world to their products. They do this with tie-ins such as DRM.

If they do this, there will be certain things that you will not be able to do with Linux like watching official downloadable content.

The way to prevent this is to make Linux a viable alternative OS, and to do this, you need real people, lots of them, using it. Before this can happen, we need commercial software suppliers to write software, and this will not happen until there is a dominant distro so they can minimize their support efforts. Just think how many packaging methods and different ways of organizing files in packages that make it impossible to accurately work out file dependencies across distributions.

I'm not talking the likes of you and I who can take the Open Source stuff and recompile and tweak it. I'm talking software like people need in their day-to-day use. I could really use a UK Customs and Revenue registered payroll program for a small business. Does one exist? Not that I can see (this is the primary reason my laptop dual boots, as even Parallels and Virtual Box struggle to run what I use well).

Watch the shopping channels. Can you get the craft software on Linux. How about the genealogy software? Software to easily rip vinyl to DVD. Software to master DVDs. How about watching Sky Anytime or ITV Online on Linux. Games? Free giveaways on magazine covers? Printer and Camera drivers?

Yes, there is software that can be made to work in many of these cases, but compare the usability. It needs to be written for non-computerate people to use, i.e. easy. If it does not run out-of-the-box, it won't get used a lot, even if it is free.

Ordinary people just want to know it works, and will not accept an OS where they cannot get what they want. And as I have said, the software writers will ignore small Linux distros.

Now. you've got me preaching. Hopefully to the converted.

Keep the faith.

[73ckn797]

Now. you've got me preaching. Hopefully to the converted.

Keep the faith.


We are the choir here.

[meindian523]

Would you define putting up posters enunciating the advantages of GNU/Linux with the aim of holding an installfest also as preaching,smartboyathome?If yes,would you please tell me how it is then possible to mass convert people?Just a question,and not challenging your opinion,as evident from my .sig.

[smartboyathome]

Would you define putting up posters enunciating the advantages of GNU/Linux with the aim of holding an installfest also as preaching,smartboyathome?If yes,would you please tell me how it is then possible to mass convert people?Just a question,and not challenging your opinion,as evident from my .sig.

No, what I classify as preaching is people who tell everyone they know they use Linux, that those people should to, and exaggerate extensively on how good Linux is in order to get people to use it. In fact, I'm part of a local LUG which holds a whole "linuxfest". I do not discourage this, just what I stated before.

[meindian523]

Umm,you mean you don't have any objection as long as the benefits of linux are not exaggerated.

[lanfeng143]

As i like the ubuntu,I told all the people "the ubuntu is a good OS,you can have a try with it !"

[blablatestbla]

I do neither. I once showed my girlfriend the cube, scale and other features in Compiz, and she thought they looked "wankerish". Sometimes trying to impress people with the graphical features of Compiz backfires. :)

[smartboyathome]

Umm,you mean you don't have any objection as long as the benefits of linux are not exaggerated.

Exactly, as long as the benefits aren't exaggerated, the downsides are known so that they can make an informed decision, and you don't tell everyone to use it, and only tell them when they ask. After all, if something works for someone, theres no need to change. :)

[meindian523]

Exactly, as long as the benefits aren't exaggerated, the downsides are known so that they can make an informed decision, and you don't tell everyone to use it, and only tell them when they ask. After all, if something works for someone, theres no need to change. :)
I've been in the good books as far as not exaggerating is concerned,but I would disagree about this
you don't tell everyone to use it, and only tell them when they ask
If people don't know an alternative exists,then how and why would they ask?You have to first disseminate the information that an alternative is available and if you are interested,you can contact so-and-so.

[smartboyathome]

If people don't know an alternative exists,then how and why would they ask?You have to first disseminate the information that an alternative is available and if you are interested,you can contact so-and-so.

I just mean don't go around saying "Hey, I use Ubuntu!" to everyone you meet, not that we shouldn't tell them at all. Like, for example, a subject on computers comes up, and they are complaining about problems, I sometimes say "Ubuntu may help", but I usually don't' push it past that.

[Abras]

I used to preach but I certainly don't do that kind of thing anymore. Preaching, to me, involves going on and on about how great Linux is and sort of downplaying or completely ignoring its downsides. Such preaching often results in a "sure, I'll give it a try" from the user, then a "this isn't what I expected" shortly after. In short, preaching tends to raise expectations too high, to a point where reality rarely reaches. So of course people are going to be disappointed.

By this point I don't advocate Linux or even talk about it very much. When people come over my house and need to use the computer for something or other (usually the Internet, of course) they get their first introduction to Linux.Some of them get curious and so I tell them a bit about it, clearly stating the pitfalls and downsides of course. But apparently I have enough positive things to say about Linux to convert at least one of my friends. Hopefully I can snag a few more as time goes on :)

[lifestream]

So my sister lives 500 miles from me, and calls me about once a week with help with her Windows computer.

She has viruses all the time, she's lost school work because of them, her apps take about a minute to load each, and no, it's not an old laptop.

I've had her install security software, but she just gets so annoyed by them getting in the way that she just turns it off. I don't blame her, I did the same too back on windows, but I didn't have the ugly problems she has because I am careful.

She won't switch to Ubuntu (I would fully set it up for her) because she doesn't want to lose the really cute icons she has on MSN. Can you believe that?! *slaps forehead*

I do feel bad for begging her to install Ubuntu so she doesn't call me every week for about an hour to fix her problems, but what am I to do?


If I ever get a hold of her laptop (maybe this christmas?) I am so installing xubuntu on that box, and she's having no say about it :P
Oh, and she won't have the root password, that's for sure. If she needs anything done with sudo, I'll do it for her with remove desktop

:mad:

[SomeGuyDude]

Once reason I love my laptop: I'm always able to actually SHOW people what I'm always yammering about instead of just talking about it all the time. Helps.

[phoenix_snake]

So my sister lives 500 miles from me, and calls me about once a week with help with her Windows computer.

She has viruses all the time, she's lost school work because of them, her apps take about a minute to load each, and no, it's not an old laptop.

I've had her install security software, but she just gets so annoyed by them getting in the way that she just turns it off. I don't blame her, I did the same too back on windows, but I didn't have the ugly problems she has because I am careful.

She won't switch to Ubuntu (I would fully set it up for her) because she doesn't want to lose the really cute icons she has on MSN. Can you believe that?! *slaps forehead*

I do feel bad for begging her to install Ubuntu so she doesn't call me every week for about an hour to fix her problems, but what am I to do?


If I ever get a hold of her laptop (maybe this christmas?) I am so installing xubuntu on that box, and she's having no say about it :P
Oh, and she won't have the root password, that's for sure. If she needs anything done with sudo, I'll do it for her with remove desktop

:mad:
if it supports vista why not install that, virus problem gone :) oh yeah and live messenger stays there too ;)

[meindian523]

I just mean don't go around saying "Hey, I use Ubuntu!" to everyone you meet, not that we shouldn't tell them at all. Like, for example, a subject on computers comes up, and they are complaining about problems, I sometimes say "Ubuntu may help", but I usually don't' push it past that.

ah,ok.That's a good clarification.

[lifestream]

if it supports vista why not install that, virus problem gone :) oh yeah and live messenger stays there too ;)

Vista is too expensive for her, and her laptop can barely run XP :P
She doesn't like Live Messenger, she likes a third party app.

I wonder about your virus-gone talk. Interesting. *googles*

[phoenix_snake]

Vista is too expensive for her, and her laptop can barely run XP :P
She doesn't like Live Messenger, she likes a third party app.

I wonder about your virus-gone talk. Interesting. *googles*
I didn't mean built in xp live messenger, that isn't there in vista, then latest version you can download is windows live messenger.

As for the virus problem, Vista has user account control which is the same technique for protection unix style OS's use and then there is internet explorer protected mode.

[lifestream]

Vista has user account control which is the same technique for protection unix style OS's use and then there is internet explorer protected mode.

Hmmm I already have her using a normal user account, and I replaced her hosts file with one that blocks some bad sites. I think it's called Mike's Hosts File, found on google. I set up IE to protect the best I could, but it seems she gets most of her viruses from her friends via MSN *shrug* ... *sigh*

[phoenix_snake]

Hmmm I already have her using a normal user account, and I replaced her hosts file with one that blocks some bad sites. I think it's called Mike's Hosts File, found on google. I set up IE to protect the best I could, but it seems she gets most of her viruses from her friends via MSN *shrug* ... *sigh*
internet explorer protected mode is only in vista lol, and is she on limited user on xp?

I suggest you install google chrome for her or at least ask her to try it, its just a browser so no harm in that right? as for messenger tell her to scan the files for viruses at least before opening.

[smartboyathome]

If I ever get a hold of her laptop (maybe this christmas?) I am so installing xubuntu on that box, and she's having no say about it :P
Oh, and she won't have the root password, that's for sure. If she needs anything done with sudo, I'll do it for her with remove desktop

Don't do this. Its acts like this which make people hate Linux. If someone doesn't want to use it, its their choice, so leave it alone. What you talked about is exactly what I'm against. If you want her to use Ubuntu, just stop helping her with her comp. I did that with a couple of my friends who relied on me too much for tech support. I explained that I didn't have anything against them, it was just I was getting tired of fixing Windows's problems. I didn't try to convert them, I just explained that I use Ubuntu which has less problems for me, and it might not for them (they already knew I used Ubuntu).

[HungryMan]

:D:D:D:D
Just dropped by. I agree with you smartboyathome, Linux is about choice (how you want it to look like, behave,...).
It's main difference with OSX and Windows is that Apple and Microsoft shove their software up you face and expect you to use it.

When people see the cube, they want Linux. When my friends wanted to switch because of this, I told them first the pro's (flash files in /tmp, compiz,...) and con's (program X doesn't work,...). After that, I told them something that changed their mind:
"Do you really need to and are you absolutely sure you want to? Come on, you're doing fine on Windows, I don't think you need to switch that much."

[Bödvar]

I actually use Ubuntu, but because it has crashed once and I had to make a real big deal of effort to get Skype to work, my advice to others is not to install Ubuntu. I've spoken to some people at school who have experienced Ubuntu, and they all say it's not worth it - gives you too much trouble. Now I know Ubuntu is not noob-proof. And I appreciate all the hard work that has been put into this software. I will keep on using and supporting Ubuntu for as long as I cannot afford to buy a Microsfot Windows license (the right to the license of which I lost in what is a rather interesting story that will bring tears to your left eye).

Ubuntu is promising, but until it surpasses the commercial versions out there in user friendliness and stability, it won't get a major market share. But maybe that's good! Because it keeps us indie ; )

[Roasted]

I actually use Ubuntu, but because it has crashed once and I had to make a real big deal of effort to get Skype to work, my advice to others is not to install Ubuntu. I've spoken to some people at school who have experienced Ubuntu, and they all say it's not worth it - gives you too much trouble. Now I know Ubuntu is not noob-proof. And I appreciate all the hard work that has been put into this software. I will keep on using and supporting Ubuntu for as long as I cannot afford to buy a Microsfot Windows license (the right to the license of which I lost in what is a rather interesting story that will bring tears to your left eye).

Ubuntu is promising, but until it surpasses the commercial versions out there in user friendliness and stability, it won't get a major market share. But maybe that's good! Because it keeps us indie ; )

Pre-Hardy, I would have agreed with most of what you said. But Hardy really established a solid platform for Ubuntu in itself, and Intrepid has only built on it more.

Everybody who knows me knows I use Ubuntu and swear by it, but most of my friends aren't interested in trying it out due to the fact they buy pre-fab computers from Dell and whatnot... so to them they're getting Windows for "free" so why not use it? Flawed logic, but I can see the 2 birds with 1 stone theory they're thinking about.

However... my buddy, whom I've known since I was 14 (I'm 22), finally tried Ubuntu three nights ago. He left a 15gb partition available when he installed XP last month, and that's where Ubuntu lies.

We installed it around 9pm. I explained some things to him, software sources, apt-get install, different programs, the way things work, compiz, etc.

I go home, wake up the next morning, and I have instant message after instant message of him saying how great it is and what all customizations and things he's done to it already. I was completely shocked. And this is a guy who hasn't gone through tech school yet, so his computer knowledge is limited to personal experience.

So, to build on the topic, Ubuntu is not noob-proof... I agree. But I don't think Windows is either. Ever see the look on some peoples faces when you mention "device manager?" I work in IT support... so it's an everyday thing for me to see.

[decoherence]

The folks at my work can't seem to keep viruses off their home computers. They'll come to me, often with the computer in tow, asking for advice and if I could maybe please take a look. Ugh. No more.

Now I step people through the process of doing it properly, and they are generally shocked.

1. Back up the user data (preferably to a non-windows computer)
2. Clean the user data from both Windows and Linux (compare the results)
3. Zero the drive
4. Re-install Windows
5. Restore user data
5a. Patch Windows *

This process takes up the better part of the day, I tell them, and sorry but your antivirus is useless because it hasn't been kept up to date. (INVARIABLY I'm told "no, no I'm very good at keeping it up to date." Sure, whatever. That must be why it says it hasn't been updated in six months.)

Anyway, from now on if somebody comes to me with a virus-related issue, I will inform them that there is a free system available that is proof against viruses and sorry, but I haven't got time to rid their Windows system of problems AGAIN. I'll be happy to install and test this nice free thing for them though, because I'm confident it will be the last I hear from 'em.

[tuxsheadache]

I agree with this post.
I am a new user, so am trying really hard to hide my excitement of a new thing and not show off. I have done pretty well.
One of my housemates would like Linux, but she is not incredibly computer smart. I have decided she is best sticking with Windows XP for the moment, because it does everything she wants it to do.
I may change her over to Ubuntu at a later date, but only when I feel confident that I know all the features so I can give her help and support if she needs it.

[meindian523]

I don't understand why people consider that you have to be a computer geek before tux will allow you near him.The guys in the video linked below are only semi-literate,computer illiterate and hold the lowest class of employment in a government agency(in India).Mind,this is only their 5th day using a computer and needless to say,they have no experience with a Linux based desktop.They can still amuse themselves with the game KTuberling on the KDE desktop.
It's actually only the *computer-literate* who find diffculties because they ahve to unlearn and relearn the new way of doing things.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=1-eRkwIOB2w

[HungryMan]

It's actually only the *computer-literate* who find diffculties because they ahve to unlearn and relearn the new way of doing things.


Especially those *computer-literate* who say Linux is only for programmers/hackers/geeks!:(

I even suspect most of the *computer-illiterate* won't be able to tell the difference between Linux and Windows/OSX.

[maphilli14]

Good example. While having a pre-meeting chat at work today two fellows are discussing the Mac/WinXP programs they like while one tries to solicit his Mac application preferences in order to position himself as a new Mac user. He says, "What do you use for notes, I'm thinking of switching"

Finally after saying nothing the Mac user says to me, "Mike what do you use?" To which I reply, "I'm a happy Linux user, it gives me the choices and freedom I like!"

:)

Mike

PS - That may be as much a zing on the Apple head as a prop up for Ubuntu/Linux!

[Frak]

Good example. While having a pre-meeting chat at work today two fellows are discussing the Mac/WinXP programs they like while one tries to solicit his Mac application preferences in order to position himself as a new Mac user. He says, "What do you use for notes, I'm thinking of switching"

Finally after saying nothing the Mac user says to me, "Mike what do you use?" To which I reply, "I'm a happy Linux user, it gives me the choices and freedom I like!"

:)

Mike

PS - That may be as much a zing on the Apple head as a prop up for Ubuntu/Linux!
That statement means absolutely nothing to a user that just types things up every so often and maybe browses the internet now and then.

[poebae]

Persuasion using fear. Some people happen to be dumb enough to believe that "There's a man in the clouds that's going to open up the Earth so they fall into a pit of fire". That way, they always follow scare tactics. That is the basic definition of Evangelism.
Is this really necessary? Surely this has to be considered an inflammatory religious attack.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Is this really necessary? Surely this has to be considered an inflammatory religious attack.

Sounds like someone exercising free speech to me, stating his opinions on things. It could be worthwhile telling Frak that his beliefs are potentially offensive and thus should not be spoken.

Oh, wait...

In short, be gentle :)
They're just words. Common sense tells us that whatever someone writes is just what he alone thinks, and he is simply expressing that belief because we all have that power to speak. Unless that person thinks of and encourages actual hateful actions (eg: "ketchup users must be hanged at the gallows"), I see no reason to silence him. Doing so would be against what a lot of us believe in and what a lot of our ancestors have fought for. I don't think you should even need to silence him if it makes you "uncomfortable", because someone's beliefs should not make you uncomfortable in the same way that someone's race should not.

The beauty of this is that you may propose your viewpoint if you feel the need, and why you think Frak's is short-sighted. (For example, I think there are a lot of really fact-loving people who follow religion, who do so because they appreciate the contrast it presents. In my case I don't feel that need, but I can understand it...). I get the feeling it would derail this thread, though.

Bear in mind that Frak writing that has not magically made everyone in this thread believe it. Chances are, it has done nothing but quietly express his views and act as a metaphor for whatever else he was writing... which was exactly the point -- nothing more.

[poebae]

I see your point, and I'm not opposing Frak's right to free speech, but calling people "dumb enough to believe" is far from constructive.

"The Community Chat area is for lighthearted and enjoyable discussions, like you might find around a water cooler at work."

I certainly wouldn't want to work for a company where people are looked down on for their religious beliefs, and I don't think the Ubuntu forums should be a place that fosters such an environment.

Sorry for going OT, but I felt the need to say something because nobody else did.

[Frak]

I see your point, and I'm not opposing Frak's right to free speech, but calling people "dumb enough to believe" is far from constructive.

"The Community Chat area is for lighthearted and enjoyable discussions, like you might find around a water cooler at work."

I certainly wouldn't want to work for a company where people are looked down on for their religious beliefs, and I don't think the Ubuntu forums should be a place that fosters such an environment.

Sorry for going OT, but I felt the need to say something because nobody else did.
That was actually a quote from the late George Carlin, so if you want to gripe at anybody, his grave isn't moving.

[JC Cheloven]

Back to topic:
All my friends do know that I use linux.
I talk about the ideals of free software.
I talk about the oddness of proprietary software.
... and about the oddness of M$ in particular.
I said "I don't support M$ products anymore" to some friends.
Everyone knows that I'd support his/her eventual switch to linux.

So, I preach, I guess.
This post makes me think about it.
On the other hand, 5 among my friends are happily using Ubuntu right now.
On the other hand, it costs my time, as I'm kinda their tech support...

Let's think about it ;-)

[sambita]

When i first started using linux (ubuntu to be more specific) i was so enthusiastic about it that i preached it to everyone i knew, i dont do that anymore. I try to simply let them know that there are good alternatives out there. I've manage to bring many friends over to the good side heh, lots of thechnical support needed from me, but i always have fun teaking Ubuntu :)

[pi.boy.travis]

When i first started using linux (ubuntu to be more specific) i was so enthusiastic about it that i preached it to everyone i knew, i dont do that anymore. I try to simply let them know that there are good alternatives out there. I've manage to bring many friends over to the good side heh, lots of thechnical support needed from me, but i always have fun teaking Ubuntu :)

Tell me about it. I have about 15 "clients" that need tech support. Maybe we should start charging for it? ;)

[ndefontenay]

I wrote this thread which I think is a detailed steps of advocacy.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=991764

It's pretty related to that one thread so here goes.

I totally agree. Preaching is bad!

[ndefontenay]

What I do when I complete my advocacy is bookmark the ubuntu forum page just below the URL bar.

Easy to reach and I teach them to use it!

[candtalan]

I talk about computers, and if windows specific stuff is mentioned, I just say,
'I don't use Windows'. Sometimes I add
'I haven't used Windows for 4 years now!' Inevitably the next question to me is
'What do you use then?'
'Ubuntu'...........

If they ask 'What is that?' I answer; 'the *Alternative* to Windows'
and etc etc

[inxygnuu]

I agree. I stopped a while ago, when my friend, who thinks he knows almost everything about anything didn't ever really care for Xubuntu. I think it is still on his system, but no matter how slow (aol), messed up, infected his computer gets, I cant get him to switch. This made me notice that he is not dedicated to anything. He blows anything that is good for him off, and really isn't headed anywhere in life. Anyways, I agree, and that is my story.):P

[Billy87]

Well this thread just sums it up brilliantly.

I was on another forum, some dude put up a screenshot of a mock internet program and said "don't worry about my RAM bein maxed out, that's just iTunes freezing so i just suspended it until i was done with the screenshot. That's just the way Ubuntu is. woot!" or something along those lines.

I googled. I am converting.

[tchai]

I agree!
When I heard about Ubuntu for the first time, I was almost convinced that it was going to be flawless......... It never had to be, though.

[forrestcupp]

I'd thank the OP, but it's turned off for some reason. Maybe this is resurrected from the Backyard.

Edit:
That was an ignorant thing to say; he was thanked a lot, so it couldn't have been from the Backyard.

[hatten]

:popcorn:thanks for being linked here

[theozzlives]

I had Linux preached to me back in 2004 by a friend. I stuck to Windows XP until 2007 when we got a short course in Linux in school, I then began trying Distro after Distro until I found Ubuntu. It's Great!

[phrostbyte]

Your whole premise is flawed. In fact I would argue by making this thread and convincing so many people (by persusation ironically) to not preach Ubuntu, you had done some damage to the Ubuntu cause! "

Preaching is in fact a very EFFECTIVE way to "convert" people to a cause. It's been used by some of the world's biggest religions. Even Microsoft uses this technique, they hire a army of "technical evangelists" who preach the good word of Microsoft. Salespeople also are preachers in a way. Selling is much more then mentioning! Often to land sales it takes preaching!

I'll admit though persuasion is skill like any other, and requires practice. You must gain the persons trust. And I stress you must always must be accurate and not overblow the product you are trying sell! Even experienced salespeople screw up sometimes.

What you must strive for is to be a successful preacher.

Really, I wish I could have posted this on the first page so there would be at least some kind of counter to this thread. But it's too late. Oh well.

[smartboyathome]

Yeah, I get what you are saying phrostbyte. Only problem is that most new Linux users are bad at preaching, and exaggerate it a lot to get people onto Linux. This causes dissapointment in the people whom the person "converted".

But I don't agree with what you said (we have to be sucessful preachers). Mentioning is all you should do, as it lets people use it if they are curious, but doesn't force it on people who don't want it. Forcing it is where the harm comes. If people have something that works (8 times out of 10 it will be Windows), why should they change? It is just more work for them to try to relearn what they thought they already knew.

[Big Russ]

Though I'd agree that banging a big drum screaming "INSTALL IT!!! INSTALL IT NOW OR YOU WILL BURN IN THE FIERY PITS OF HELL WHILE GATES PEES ON YOU!!" achieves nothing I have been trying to convert the wife to using it... she is bloody stubborn though and still uses xp. I would just uninstall XP but I need it for itunes and she is smart enough to install it herself again anyway. Anyone got some suggestions?

[smartboyathome]

Though I'd agree that banging a big drum screaming "INSTALL IT!!! INSTALL IT NOW OR YOU WILL BURN IN THE FIERY PITS OF HELL WHILE GATES PEES ON YOU!!" achieves nothing I have been trying to convert the wife to using it... she is bloody stubborn though and still uses xp. I would just uninstall XP but I need it for itunes and she is smart enough to install it herself again anyway. Anyone got some suggestions?

Like I said in my last post, if XP works for her, let her use it. Forcing it on her will only have the opposite effect from what you want. She will try to get away the more you force.

[Big Russ]

I know what you mean but by the same token I'm looking to run a safer desktop environment.... XP pcs online walk about with huge targets on their backs. I suppose the solution is to be less stingy and get her a pc for her own use :)

[hyperyoda]

I used to preach, and I put a couple of people off of it. Now, I just use it on the bus and stuff, and dont make my theme look like vista, or mac, people ask questions, and I answer. I give 'em a live cd, and explain they can boot from the cd, and when they do that, it will be slow as all hell. but they can install it, and if they follow the instructions, they can keep windows. The buety of it is, I see them again the next day, or the next week, and can keep answering questions.
Every day is a good day to use Ubuntu.

Good on ya mate!

[teaker1s]

if your going to help new users then reasonable hardware a must, if they offer an old 400mhz laptop it's not going to go well.

Duel booting their main machine is my approach or netbooks are my latest angle.

Let them borrow a netbook to play on and they are hooked- I've been converting linpus lite acers to ubuntu.

portable, reasonable specs on hdd models-as such you can run a full ubuntu desktop successfully.

[SlickRick]

I think I did preach when I first discovered Ubuntu. Since I found out about it myself, it was new and exciting and I did talk about it a bit too much but didn't realize. As far as preaching goes, that's with everything in life, If a person fails to find a common interest with someone, then they will try to impose their own one's onto that person. Some people on my college course keep trying to 'convert' me to world of warcraft or runescape. They keep talking so much about it like it's the new black and really puts me off even though I actually like those games. Same goes for playstation vs xbox.
I used to preach to my mates a lot how smoking is bad but now I get preached about that myself and it's awful, so I do try not to do it with anything. I realize how it's a bad thing but also see why people do it so I'll try not to throw so many rocks at those religious fanatics on the street :p

As for promoting Ubuntu or linux, it is best to show them first hand and help out through the transaction. I've been trying to find distro most similar to ubuntu on my memory stick to show to everyone in my class or at least to just use it and see if anyone is interested.:)

[Roasted]

I preach open source software, but I don't really preach Ubuntu. A couple of my friends tried it and loved it, but were stricken back to XP due to their infatuation with gaming. I love gaming too, which is why I dual boot, but they just didn't have the desire for full time Ubuntu use. However, they really don't do anything on a computer except ebay, aim, and play games. So when your situation points to that and have no qualms with XP, ehh, I see your point.

I use Ubuntu for many reasons. Samba, Rsync, stability, security, compiz, and plus I tend to like my "program pack" in Ubuntu more than I did in Windows.. meaning, the programs I use the most. Amarok and K3b are enough to keep me in Ubuntu full time. The rest of it just adds to it.

But at the end of the day, when I'm asked questions, I answer. But let's just say I don't hide my pride when I'm asked about Ubuntu, either. :)

[Gizenshya]

wow, when I read the first post I was reminded of my studies about Islam. That post is a perfect example of the doctrine of "Jihad", only applied to a program instead of religion.

Don't preach.

Answer what is asked of you only.

Be there to help those who are interested about your religion to help them learn about it, but from a perspective of learning only. Only if a person is specifically interested in converting should you help them in that way.

And, to boot, it was also for the same reasons. Its not to hide the religion or separate it. Its To not be seen as obnoxious, or segregationist. To not spread misinformation. To spread knowledge about the religion in a peaceful format to all who want to know about it, and allow to the religion all who would like to join.

wow.. strikingly similar. and very effective ;)

if only other religions (OS's?) would be so peaceful.

[meindian523]

hmm,is that trolling,or would you care to explain,since the rest of us haven't had the benefit of Islamic studies?

[meborc]

hmm,is that trolling,or would you care to explain,since the rest of us haven't had the benefit of Islamic studies?

i think you misunderstood him... he was actually saying it is a good thing :)

[tubezninja]

hmm,is that trolling,or would you care to explain,since the rest of us haven't had the benefit of Islamic studies?

Why would this be trolling?

I understood Gizenshya's point perfectly. Linux enthusiasts can learn a lot from it. :) Actually, many computer/cell/phone/tech enthusiasts can.

[meindian523]

hmm,ok.Mea Culpa.My bad.On a fifth reading,I could see the other side of it.

Edit:
BTW,I need a couple of reasons why Linux is better than Windows,which don't go into philosophy or wouldn't be of interest to the email,movies,music crowd,and excluding the viruses and security reason.

Also,no insinuations that MS is reading your data,or will sue you when they get the chance.It just makes it harder to actually accept that here's a better OS.I need a reason which can be shown to be really happening,not that "The code is closed,how do you know that there is no reporting function in there?!!!!!!"You can't prove it the other way round either,that there IS a reporting function,because of the same reason that the code is closed.

I know there are lots of conditions,but pretty please?

[maphilli14]

I can only add that I HATE, H A T E, being on the receiving end of being preached to. My MAC head friends (aka brainless apple lovers) all to often shove their religion down my throat and I think we are all wise to not repay the same fervor.

Me? What do I use, Linux. I like it. <period>

Mike

[myrtle1908]

You guys should head on over to the Programming Talk forum. There are so many Python preachers there it is borderline unbearable. Almost every thread gets hijacked by these self appointed divine beings it makes me sick. It is such a Python love-fest it has turned me off completely.

[jrusso2]

You guys should head on over to the Programming Talk forum. There are so many Python preachers there it is borderline unbearable. Almost every thread gets hijacked by these self appointed divine beings it makes me sick. It is such a Python love-fest it has turned me off completely.

Heh, see there are fanatics everywhere.

[missbliss]

I can get down with this sentiment. Preaching to someone usually ends up in an automatic tune out. No one wants to be told they are inferior in some way.

People become interested in open source if they have a reason to be. Not because you tell them it's better. If there's something you can point out that might benefit them, then by all means. But telling them about linux/ubuntu/open source just because you think it's better will turn people off.

[Gizenshya]

Why would this be trolling?

I understood Gizenshya's point perfectly. Linux enthusiasts can learn a lot from it. :) Actually, many computer/cell/phone/tech enthusiasts can.

thank you... but its not my point. The idea has been around a while (and apparently comes up after similar preaching events). Islam is the earliest system to embrace the idea to my knowledge (though I'm not claiming they were the first), and probably the biggest supporter of the idea (many view it as the "Sixth Pillar of Islam"). Its also a very fast growing religion (though I'm not religious myself, by any stretch of the term). The idea has drastically changed my views towards "Missionaries," though...

thanks to meborc as well. I do think its a very good thing. There isn't really a downside. its win-win. Better for everyone. whats not to love? :) I fully support its application to Ubuntu ;)

[Kelvari]

I actually found this thread to be quite informative, especially since I'm going to be giving a speech on Linux in my Communications 101 class at school. I'm also going to be bringing in some Ubuntu/Kubuntu CDs (20 of each, just enough for the class to get one apiece), and will be offering them to anyone who is "interested in learning more".

I don't remember exactly what caused me to switch to Linux, but I do remember that, after 6 years, I had gotten rather bored with the bland offerings of WinXP (still a decent OS, but I'm sure that 7 will blow it - and Vista - out of the water).

I've actually already managed to give away two LiveCDs and convert one of my friends at school to Ubuntu after their Vista Laptop wound up crashing out three times on him because of botched updates. Another person that I've given a Kubuntu CD to has a broken Wintel machine, and has already decided to leave Windows behind. They plan on using the CD to resurrect the computer :D

When talking to others, though, I follow a rule of "repair, restore, replace" - I repair the problems that I can, even going so far as to offer to fully restore their Windows OS to a clean install. If it gets to the point where Windows would have to be installed, then I offer Ubuntu as an option, leaving the final choice up to them.

[howlingmadhowie]

Though I'd agree that banging a big drum screaming "INSTALL IT!!! INSTALL IT NOW OR YOU WILL BURN IN THE FIERY PITS OF HELL WHILE GATES PEES ON YOU!!" achieves nothing I have been trying to convert the wife to using it... she is bloody stubborn though and still uses xp. I would just uninstall XP but I need it for itunes and she is smart enough to install it herself again anyway. Anyone got some suggestions?

people just aren't used to regarding software as having an ethical dimension. while we are quite happy to buy fair-trade coffee and feel good about ourselves by spending one extra euro a month to help the poor farmers in columbia, we have no desire to find out what the hundreds of billions spent on software each year do.

people need consciousness-raising when it comes to the effect software has on the global economy, on education and on health. we're just accustomed to looking at the whole industry as being ethically neutral, while it actually controls the dissemination of knowledge on the entire planet. we think that it's a technical discipline and then don't think any further.

[jmorsman]

I have been using Ubuntu Linux for a number of years. I help a lot of people with their computers and many strange problems that they have with them. People come to me as a last resort after they have spent a lot of money on their computer and it still does not work correctly. Most of the time they are ready to throw the computer out and buy another one. I will ask them if they play video games and most of the time they say no. I will then ask what they want to do with the computer? At this time they are curious as to why I am asking such questions and I explain I have a alternative operating system that I think they may like. I explain the benefits of the system and the drawbacks and why I think they should give it a try before trashing their computer. I then set up their computer for them to do what they want it to do. After a few weeks I will ask them what they think? All I have had so far are people who love their computers again and they can not believe how well it works and they are glad that they did not purchase another computer.

The best way that I have found to change people over to Linux is wait until they are extremely frustrated with what they have. Listen to what the people want and expect their system to do. Then explain why Linux may be the best choice for their needs. After that I help them set up a computer that will do exactly what they want it to do and become available for any questions that they may have while getting used to the new operating system. Linux will prove it's self as a superior operating system when the problems that they had no longer plague them. I try not to preach Linux, I look for an opportunity to solve a problem someone has then show why Linux is better for them by solving their problems.

[calrogman]

Even mentioning can be a bit too much sometimes, although that is usually not the mentioners fault.

*click* (http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html)

[Tuxoid]

Yes..., for me there has been too many times that I have been the preacher. I would always mention it when it didn't need to be mentioned. As it is now, I can't really have my usage of Linux just there to be viewed, though. My laptop's fan is dying, and is really noisy.

It's hard not to preach for me, because I am a free software advocate in a Mac-heavy program at my college. Mac users are hair-pullingly annoying to, and I'd consider Mac OS to be a less moral form of proprietary software than Microsoft Windows. Mac users don't even know why they choose a Mac over Windows, and I suffer constantly from my instructors wanting students to 'drink the poisoned kool-aid' and switch over.

That's hard to watch my fellow students-- some who stated in the first week they don't like Macs or Mac OS-- get so quickly converted by my instructors, for no apparent reason. Where I may advocate Linux, but that's because I consider it a form of free software, and I believe free software is for the people, and inspired by the people; making it morally rich.

It's scary seeing my fellow classmates being so easily swayed by my instructors. In this, I have showed what has been seen as a foolish vigilance in attempting to speak about the wrongful nature of Apple, and their effect on people. I am burning myself out in attempting to communicate why Apple takes advantage of computer users, but I know I need to keep the resistance and morale up. Heck, I don't care if they use Windows, but unless something or someone can show me why Apple deserves the ridiculous amount of fame they get, I will not settle.

The Mac needs to be suppressed.

[maphilli14]

The Mac needs to be suppressed.

Mac the corporation or Mac users? :P

I'd honestly take either!

Mike

[blastus]

I wouldn't even mention it, but demonstrate it. The best thing ever is to run Windows XP/Vista in VirtualBox full screen and show them something. Then shutdown Windows and then see the look on their faces when Compiz burns down the window. :)

[eeeek]

I dabbled and poked at Ubuntu (Linux in general) for a couple of years until I was recently able to build my own computer (much faster) and I could put the OS I wanted on it (the wife isn't much for learning new things on the computer).

I run Ubuntu 8.04 and generally like it. There have been a few glitches and problem areas - I don't blame anyone, it's just part of life, from my understanding.

But the past months of experience on my new computer have taught me that there is no holy grail with computing. People come from different backgrounds and have different needs. Some solutions will work better for most people - but I don't think there is one size to fit all. Everyone has their own tipping point at which they say, "Forget it, I'm sticking with... (blank)"

As you can guess, I run ubuntu at home for nearly all my needs. But we have a windows computer right next to it that I do still need for a select few things.

All this being said, I agree that preaching is ineffective and annoying. Mentioning is probably a good way of putting it.

[goapbishma]

Thank you! I was abit audacious in preaching Ubuntu to others , while I myself is still new to Linux! But after seeing the post I made alittle change, that now no preaching only sharing of knowledge on demand!

[smartboyathome]

Thank you! I was abit audacious in preaching Ubuntu to others , while I myself is still new to Linux! But after seeing the post I made alittle change, that now no preaching only sharing of knowledge on demand!

Glad this post helped you. :)

[trig]

this is a great idea and i will b sure to keep one in my bible bag when i leave now.

[JackieChan]

I preach it to my cousin and friends.

[Kzap333]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS
Agreed I was going to ask this a while ago, but when I started with Linux and I didn't use it full to I was raving about it to everyone and spend most of my time sting it up for other people, they would say "I'll try linux if you make this worl, or if you setup my wifi card".
Maybe now because I use linux full time, or I'm just a meaner person but now when people mention it, I say I use it and how good it is, I will never make them use it, if they don't want too it's there loss not mine.

[Megrimn]

Yeah, I agree with the preaching thing. The foremost reason I got into it was that a friend of mine had ubuntu booted on his laptop and I said "what is that, mac or windows?" Silly me, I was so naive then. XD

[XubuRoxMySox]

I'm a rabid fanboy of Ubuntu, but I know only too well that shoving anything down people's throats is only going to repel them!

So when my "I Do it With Ubuntu" teeshirt arrives, I'll just wear it and answer questions. I blogged about it here (http://robinzrantz.xanga.com/699518102/lock-up-obnoxious-new-converts/), but quickly got off the soapbox lest I alienate all my friends!

Good, good advice. Thanks!

-Robin

[PhoHammer]

They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them.

This is exactly how I was introduced to it and I love it now. I don't think I would be using
Linux now if my friend had tried to convince me to.

[LuigiAntoniol]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

Only discovered this thread now! Brilliantly written and it's probably the clearest and most logical approach to spreading Linux that I've yet to read. Thanks for the info. I must confess that I don't quite match up to the expectations here, but I live and learn.

[hobo14]

There are many more degrees of "converting" than preaching or mentioning.

Preaching may not be good either, but I'd say just mentioning linux to someone would have a conversion rate of about, oh, 0%?

Personally I just wait until each time someone complains to me about their windows box, and tell them the difference between Linux and windows in relation to the problem they are having.

Works wonders!

[pwnst*r]

another thing - would you REALLY be happy if almost everyone used linux? it's like that band you and your closest friends "discovered", then all of a sudden EVERYONE likes them and the band now loses that little something to you.

[Orlsend]

I think it depends on the kinda of User. to some of the people I talk about Linux If I don't show them and tell then why is Linux better, If I only mention it most of the people think its not worth it and loose interest quickly. While some others a completely reverse thing. In my case most of the people I talk (Or like some of you consider "Preaching") are the ones that usually have stayed with Linux. the other the fever runs of after a couple of days.

[SneakyWho_am_i]

Well, just for today, I'm going to preach. To the choir. So skip my post.


I have stop preaching Linux now. I only use it myself now.
But this does not stop me from making fun of my friends when they struggle from virii and spyware in Windows. (but I help them even with Windows neverthless) :D


I laugh at him. I would help him, but he's a power user who has been using a handle with "hacker" in it for many years now, writes software, has a whole room full of computers... If he can't fix it and he's write there in front of the screen, what hope do I have?

Linux I can do, there's almost always ssh available. And although I have many more years on Windows experience than Linux experience, I have to say, Linux is easier. Windows's problems are just too hard to solve, the system tries to take away all your control and hide all the settings behind mysterious commands that might be documented in knowledge-base articles, or might not be.

Of course this is all anecdotal. It's my personal experience and there are people out there who can swap the names around and say the same thing.
But, you know, this guys gets blue screens and virus infections that wipe all his programs... I'm just sitting here with my months of Linux uptime...

At first I was supportive. Moving to a new operating system is HARD, maybe even harder than adopting your first. It's generally not worth the shift. But now, when he has to reformat and reinstall Windows, I point and laugh. He has to do everything manually and his computer constantly breaks, but still he keeps going back to his hateful master over and over and over again.

Linux will be fine without him, we don't need him... He's just amusing (if not shameful) to watch get bitten over and over and over and over again.



heh, blame that to desktop cube and wobbly windows effects, because every time a new user sees it they always thought its very cool that everybody should have it. :tongue:

Yeah I thought they were pretty cool at first... But in my defense I had a Windows user egging me on. Sometimes I decide that I hate them now. Probably the most useful feature for me is being able to drag something directly to another workspace/virtual desktop.


No... I spend most of my time just watching and waiting... When a local friend's computer dies, if it's easier for me to install Linux (how old is the computer? Do they still have the Windows setup disk?) I tend to just install Ubuntu. I have to set it up a little bit and make sure that WINE works (just in case) and that sort of thing, but it's really no big deal.
They don't care what they're using, as long as they don't have to buy new computers. They stop asking for computer help every week.

There are new things to learn, and as long as they aren't afraid to ask, learning is not a problem.

[zerothis]

"Don't preach, mention" could be called the pacifist approach. It has all the same advantages and disadvantages.

A major disadvantages is practicing this ideal in a hostile environment. As in the boss saying, "If I see Linux on your computer, you're fired". Worse than being fired would be being constantly sabotaged. I've had to live in such environments. My response to 'Linux gets you fired' has always been to use Free Software (including Linux). For a variety of reasons, I bring my own computer to work and most bosses will never know I use Free Software by looking at. This is until I tell them the reason everything has been running so smoothly since I arrived. I'm not bragging, I couldn't do it without Free Software. Occasionally I've been fired. Not everyone has the luxury of this option. Fortunately Linux is highly resistant to technical tampering, which is one of many reasons I do everything to encourage my employers and coworkers to attempt it. But, 'oops, I split my coffee...and soda...and yoohoo...in the card slot...and my tuna sandwich...in the CD drive...multiple times...when your Linux laptop was locked in your car...in your driveway...across town', can be a problem. And there are many ways to be sabotaged in the workplace that do not involve computers. I prefer to preach the advantages of Free Software before they do things like this. Telling them afterwards just comes across as whining. Remaining silent seems wrong somehow. Some of you might think perhaps I'm an ******* that provokes this kind of behavior and that I'm the very example of why "Don't preach, mention" should be followed. But the fact is, the vast majority of places I've work are not hostile to Free Software even if they don't want to use it. I got along fine in those places and no one complained.

Another disadvantage is choosing to not help your neighbor. Suppose you see a coworker poking tweezers into a live socket to remove a broken lightbulb. Would you just mention the danger and do nothing? Or would you attempt to switch the socket off? Or would you go even further and offer to help find a better way to remove it? But perhaps this is a bad example as this is a potential threat to their life rather than just their liberty. We all know one is infinitely more important that the other. Suppose a co-worker does not know how or want to go to the supply room to get paper. Instead, you realize one day, he is walking to the office supply store down the street and paying out of his own pocket to buy paper for his work needs. Of course you would mention that there is a supply room where you get your paper for his work needs. But he is skeptical. "Every place I have ever worked had us buy our own paper. It just works that way. If its free paper, it must not be as good. It probably won't make good printouts in my printer. It probably won't it even fit in my printer. If I pay for it then I know its good quality from a professional company. THere could be all different sizes of paper in there, I want to know I'm getting the right size. The store will help if something is wrong with the paper. If I get it from the supply room I'm on my own. You seem awful arrogant for suggesting anyone can just take paper from the supply room and that you think you are right. I don't know what kind of box the supply room paper comes in, or how to open it. The paper in the store comes in a nice shiny box and is ready to use. I don't want to have to make my own paper or put my own coating on it. Is is stacked nice in the supply room, the store has nice staked paper in a box. I don't want to walk there, that takes a long time, my legs are tired. That paper is different from mine. I'll have to make two stacks and label them so I don't get them mixed up. Or through my paper away, I don't want to through my paper away. Does it have unexpected fold prevention. My paper can accidentally fold itself so they install a soft fold prevention coating. Does the supply room have antifold soft coating. Nobody can mess with my paper because it I have a personalized holder with my name on it. I don't think the supply room paper has a holder with my name on it. My stack of paper is 25 high, if the supply room paper comes in stacks of 50 it might not fit. My holder holds 25 so I know it will fit in my printer. It would be just to hard to fit half the paper in the printer. I don't want to be coating my paper by myself all the time. My paper has arrows on it so I know which end goes in the printer. I heard office supply paper has no arrows on it. But I also heard they put too many arrows on the box. My paper comes with step by step instructions on how to open the package, put the paper in the holder, then put it in the printer. What if the supply room paper doesn't have clear instructions or tells me to put open the box put the paper in the printer? It'll take up space on my desk even when I'm not printing anything. This unhealthy obsession with supply room paper you have is not practical. Do they have laser yet paper in the supply room? I think they don't so I'm not going there. Can I doodle on it. I want to doodle on my paper. You've given me no reasons why I should use supply room paper." You want to mention not preach right? So your hands are tied and your voice is gagged. too bad for your coworker. Or, would you perhaps say something like, "Because I like you, I'm going to the supply room to get paper right now. I'm not even out yet. [walking to room] Hey boss, I'm getting paper out of the supply room and I'm not even out yet. [arriving back] See, you can get paper from the supply room." But suppose he's still skeptical. Would you leave it at that or consider trying something else? OR, how about answering his criticisms? No threat to life or liberty here. But now suppose, you find out, he's not actually buying the paper down the street. He's shoplifting it! So now what?
In order for me to stand by and not take *action* when someone I know is disadvantaging themselves, I have to make a conscious selfish effort to decide "I don't care enough about you to give a ****". I hope, and evidence suggests, to me at least, that I'm not prone to have that much disregard for my fellow man.

I'm not just being a sourpuss. I have an alternative suggestion. "After helping, preach". Always help first, take action if necessary. Give away CDs first. Setup the Linux system for the client first (before they own it). Do your work using Linux first. Without saying so first, go get the paper from the supply room, and another stack, tell your boss, and hand a stack to your coworker. Then preach the response to the criticisms. After helping, preach. Be aware the your help may be despised. Be sure people see that you are despised for helping. After being despised, its all the more important to preach. This way has its disadvantages as well.

[WatchingThePain]

Damn, all those doors I knocked on.
So we preach by our actions.
When a different OS bod says "why does your pc work?", I mention that I use something known as Linux.
Now if a Female asks me for a light I say "no, but I have a Ubuntu Live CD".
"Excuse me do you know where the Post Office is?"
"No Madam, but here's the URL for Linux.org".
Does anyone know how to assemble a sandwich board?.
Loudspeaker..."You know when you've been Linuxed"

[rookcifer]

I am tired of OS evangelism in general. Yes, I think Linux is far better than Windows and I often make my case if I see ******* trolls spreading FUD. If someone asks for information on Linux, then I see no problem providing a comparison of Linux vs. Windows. But these endless threads started by trolls are tiresome.

Basically, if someone doesn't want to use Linux, fine. The way I see it, Linux is not here to convert ******* users anyway.

[zerothis]

Now if a Female asks me for a light I say "no, but I have a Ubuntu Live CD".
Yes, hear is a light, and an Ubuntu CD. And if I may be bold, and I only say this because I like you, you might try searching the net and installing Qui-tom-zilla after installing Ubuntu.


"Excuse me do you know where the Post Office is?"
Yes, I deliver a stack of free Ubuntu CDs there every week. Here's how you get there and find the CDs...


Does anyone know how to assemble a sandwich board?
As a matter of fact I do. I wear one at the carnival every year to promote this CD, here... Now the way to construct a sandwich board is... You could also buy one from aframesigns.us.com. You know, A-Frame Signs uses Linux to run their website...

[WatchingThePain]

Yes..dont forget this weekend is the Highgate summer fete. (Norf Lundun Bigup).
Bring ya Ubuntu.
Maybe a beer can be brewed in honour.
Druids existed long before Linux but yet there seems to be a strange link.

[chucky chuckaluck]

"Don't preach, mention" could be called the pacifist approach. It has all the same advantages and disadvantages.

A major disadvantages is practicing this ideal in a hostile environment. As in the boss saying, "If I see Linux on your computer, you're fired". Worse than being fired would be being constantly sabotaged. I've had to live in such environments. My response to 'Linux gets you fired' has always been to use Free Software (including Linux). For a variety of reasons, I bring my own computer to work and most bosses will never know I use Free Software by looking at. This is until I tell them the reason everything has been running so smoothly since I arrived. I'm not bragging, I couldn't do it without Free Software. Occasionally I've been fired. Not everyone has the luxury of this option. Fortunately Linux is highly resistant to technical tampering, which is one of many reasons I do everything to encourage my employers and coworkers to attempt it. But, 'oops, I split my coffee...and soda...and yoohoo...in the card slot...and my tuna sandwich...in the CD drive...multiple times...when your Linux laptop was locked in your car...in your driveway...across town', can be a problem. And there are many ways to be sabotaged in the workplace that do not involve computers. I prefer to preach the advantages of Free Software before they do things like this. Telling them afterwards just comes across as whining. Remaining silent seems wrong somehow. Some of you might think perhaps I'm an ******* that provokes this kind of behavior and that I'm the very example of why "Don't preach, mention" should be followed. But the fact is, the vast majority of places I've work are not hostile to Free Software even if they don't want to use it. I got along fine in those places and no one complained.

Another disadvantage is choosing to not help your neighbor. Suppose you see a coworker poking tweezers into a live socket to remove a broken lightbulb. Would you just mention the danger and do nothing? Or would you attempt to switch the socket off? Or would you go even further and offer to help find a better way to remove it? But perhaps this is a bad example as this is a potential threat to their life rather than just their liberty. We all know one is infinitely more important that the other. Suppose a co-worker does not know how or want to go to the supply room to get paper. Instead, you realize one day, he is walking to the office supply store down the street and paying out of his own pocket to buy paper for his work needs. Of course you would mention that there is a supply room where you get your paper for his work needs. But he is skeptical. "Every place I have ever worked had us buy our own paper. It just works that way. If its free paper, it must not be as good. It probably won't make good printouts in my printer. It probably won't it even fit in my printer. If I pay for it then I know its good quality from a professional company. THere could be all different sizes of paper in there, I want to know I'm getting the right size. The store will help if something is wrong with the paper. If I get it from the supply room I'm on my own. You seem awful arrogant for suggesting anyone can just take paper from the supply room and that you think you are right. I don't know what kind of box the supply room paper comes in, or how to open it. The paper in the store comes in a nice shiny box and is ready to use. I don't want to have to make my own paper or put my own coating on it. Is is stacked nice in the supply room, the store has nice staked paper in a box. I don't want to walk there, that takes a long time, my legs are tired. That paper is different from mine. I'll have to make two stacks and label them so I don't get them mixed up. Or through my paper away, I don't want to through my paper away. Does it have unexpected fold prevention. My paper can accidentally fold itself so they install a soft fold prevention coating. Does the supply room have antifold soft coating. Nobody can mess with my paper because it I have a personalized holder with my name on it. I don't think the supply room paper has a holder with my name on it. My stack of paper is 25 high, if the supply room paper comes in stacks of 50 it might not fit. My holder holds 25 so I know it will fit in my printer. It would be just to hard to fit half the paper in the printer. I don't want to be coating my paper by myself all the time. My paper has arrows on it so I know which end goes in the printer. I heard office supply paper has no arrows on it. But I also heard they put too many arrows on the box. My paper comes with step by step instructions on how to open the package, put the paper in the holder, then put it in the printer. What if the supply room paper doesn't have clear instructions or tells me to put open the box put the paper in the printer? It'll take up space on my desk even when I'm not printing anything. This unhealthy obsession with supply room paper you have is not practical. Do they have laser yet paper in the supply room? I think they don't so I'm not going there. Can I doodle on it. I want to doodle on my paper. You've given me no reasons why I should use supply room paper." You want to mention not preach right? So your hands are tied and your voice is gagged. too bad for your coworker. Or, would you perhaps say something like, "Because I like you, I'm going to the supply room to get paper right now. I'm not even out yet. [walking to room] Hey boss, I'm getting paper out of the supply room and I'm not even out yet. [arriving back] See, you can get paper from the supply room." But suppose he's still skeptical. Would you leave it at that or consider trying something else? OR, how about answering his criticisms? No threat to life or liberty here. But now suppose, you find out, he's not actually buying the paper down the street. He's shoplifting it! So now what?
In order for me to stand by and not take *action* when someone I know is disadvantaging themselves, I have to make a conscious selfish effort to decide "I don't care enough about you to give a ****". I hope, and evidence suggests, to me at least, that I'm not prone to have that much disregard for my fellow man.

I'm not just being a sourpuss. I have an alternative suggestion. "After helping, preach". Always help first, take action if necessary. Give away CDs first. Setup the Linux system for the client first (before they own it). Do your work using Linux first. Without saying so first, go get the paper from the supply room, and another stack, tell your boss, and hand a stack to your coworker. Then preach the response to the criticisms. After helping, preach. Be aware the your help may be despised. Be sure people see that you are despised for helping. After being despised, its all the more important to preach. This way has its disadvantages as well.

[donald]you're fired![/trump]

[WatchingThePain]

[donald]you're fired![/trump]

The beginning and end tags do not match.
Syntax error.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

The beginning and end tags do not match.
Syntax error.

We apologise again for the fault in the subtitles. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.

[chucky chuckaluck]

The beginning and end tags do not match.
Syntax error.

...and you're off the island.

[WatchingThePain]

A poem for my beloveds..

Nobody likes me everybody hates me, let's go and eat some worms.
Big fat juicey ones , little skinny wriggley ones, see them squiggle and squirm
Bite off the heads and suck out all the juice, throw the skins away.
Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, let's go and eat some worms.:KS

[ade234uk]

I think a seasoned Ubuntu user just cant be bothered in spreading the word or just does not have the energy, they just use it and get on with it.

[meindian523]

I think a seasoned Ubuntu user just cant be bothered in spreading the word or just does not have the energy, they just use it and get on with it.
+1.I've reached that stage.

[TeamJ]

exactly. don't advertise it. lots of reasons why which I will mention tomorrow, my brain cannot handle these tasks today

[Dimitriid]

Preaching obviously works: it works on politics, on religion, etc.

However I do not "preach" out of general principle however: I believe people deserve what they get. People who are too lazy to use an alternative to windows deserve to have constant issues to deal with and they deserve to pay a lot of money for menial tasks any human being capable of rational thought, even the dumbest one, is capable of doing like following simple instructions and use common sense.

More over, a power user usually finds little or no limitants on windows either: Ive run windows XP systems with uptime of 2 months or more with no issues, ran without an antivirus or a malware detector, had 0 problems.

[1roxtar]

Don't confuse a willingness to educate and inform with "preaching" either. I am a new Linux/Ubuntu user myself and enjoy it's freedom. Although, I use it exclusively as the primary OS on my computers, I'm not screaming "Death To Microsoft" or "Screw O/S X". I show people that Windows and O/S X aren't the only ships in the sea and that they have options. I'm tired of reading that Linux isn't for everyone. Nothing in life is. Linux is for programmers AND the average-joe. So I still have to tweak a few things...so what....I also did with Windows. I'm not standing on a soapbox or slicking my hair back like Al Sharpton, but I will be trying to educate someone when I see them trying to spend $200 on a bloated OS system. Can I hear an Amen, Brutha????

:lolflag:

[TeamJ]

yeh I want people to know about it but I hate it when people preach politics, religion, etc. can't they see I have made my opinion? and why start some argument about it? I mean, peace! stop fighting and get on with your lives!

anyway I won't write an essay about this like I was going to, I can't be bothered to. so g'bye!

[praveesh]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

I agree. Please have a look at my signature too.

[Little Bit]

I'm a brand new Ubuntu girl and I can certainly understand the temptation to "preach" now!

Yet I never would have been "converted" that way. I'm a "convert" because of the example set by a boy in my dance class. He uses a laptop computer to teach a beginner's dance class at our studio, and never mentioned that it's Linux machine.

He's super cute (and the only boy in the dance school), so all the girls want to "borrow him" to show us that dance move again, teach us that step again, and "may I borrow your laptop for a bit." He let me use his laptop, I listened to music, checked my e-mail, surfed a little on the internet, and did some schoolwork. When I gave him back his laptop I mentioned how fast and how simple it was. And that's when he mentioned it was Linux. I was stunned! Robin is not a geeky boy at all, but he uses Linux!?? OMG! And I had used Linux without knowing it - and it was effortless, fast, simple, and elegant!

It wasn't long after that when my Vista was going really slow and there were all these repeated warnings about security and expired software, so I asked Robin about Linux.

You don't have to be an awesome supercute dancer for that to work, just be good at whatever you do and share Linux incidentally.

Also: If I'd had no reason to switch I probably wouldn't have, but the timing was just right after I had unknowingly used Linux with such speed and ease.

So a big thank-you to Robin (Dixiedancer on these forums) for introducing me to Ubuntu and liberating me from Vista! And for doing it in such a classy way. Robin, you totally rock! And Ubuntu, you rock too!

I'll try hard to resist the urge to overpower people with my excitement about Linux, and follow Robin's example.

A brand new Ubuntu girl,
Amy

[p0cky84]

It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it
Paradox?

[ReMO451]

I've been using Ubuntu for a little while now, and have successfully converted one of my friends to Linux. I used this approach, but I only found about about this post just a few minutes ago. He vented to me about his frustrations about Windows, I mentioned that I used Ubuntu Linux, and the rest is history. He still has a Windows partition (much like I do) for games and for syncing his iPod Touch.

[markbuntu]

I have some friends who are die hard windows users, early adopters, hard core gamers. I don't preach to them. I just tell them that all the money I save on software now goes into hardware. They just stare wistfully at my tower and my 24" and 22" monitors and my netbook and all my midi controllers... but they are also very mainstream type people so it takes some time, but not much more I think.

[JDShu]

One of the biggest tests of non-preaching will is when you're talking to a friend on instant messenger and they say "brb, my computer is getting too slow to use, need to restart" or "brb, messenger is screwing up, need to restart".

Sigh.

[Bruce M.]

It used to be two, it's now three.

There are three things that should never be discussed in a group of people you don't know: Politics, Religion and What OS is best!

But that's just my opinion and I am also a convert in the same way as LittleBit, a partial quote that fits my situation:


Also: If I'd had no reason to switch I probably wouldn't have, but the timing was just right ...

Ubuntu was mentioned in passing in an email and not discussed or mentioned again. A few months later W2K committed it's last act of defiance with reporting my HD as dead and would not boot. "Ubuntu" popped into my head, easy word to remember, and here I am! The timing was perfect!

OH, and I used that hard drive for another two years with Ubu.

Have a nice day.
Bruce

[stwschool]

One of the biggest tests of non-preaching will is when you're talking to a friend on instant messenger and they say "brb, my computer is getting too slow to use, need to restart" or "brb, messenger is screwing up, need to restart".

Sigh.
Funny that, that's always the one that gets me in trouble!

[Viva]

I don't see anything wrong with preaching, whether it is about your religion or Ubuntu or anything you believe is superior. You just have to know how to do it.

[Eskobar]

Very well said!!!:popcorn:

[sharath0007]

Idont think there is anything wrong in a little ubuntu preaching, considering the fact that only very few people are out ther who even knows that the pc is not all about windows.
The opensource and free software movements are ideas that need to be spread in todays world; for the humanitarian cause they have at heart. Where else do you think such activism will come if you decide to keep mum about such wonderful ideas.

you should speak out and you should do it in the right way!!

[itsjareds]

I think if someone says "uggh, this Microsoft Office 2007 docx file isn't opening in my Office 2003", I would say "hey, I can do that in Ubuntu".

Though I agree, overpreaching is a problem and I mostly agree with what the OP said. The only problem I have is "Carry a liveUSB around with you". Doesn't that seem a little.. over excited? Someone asks you about it and you say "YES! I have one right in my pocket. Let's do it right now."

[jhb1608]

I do honestly agree with you. I would preach, but I'd rather show them on my computer and explain to them then if they notice any speed difference on Ubuntu, then good. But if they have the hard time with Linux, they will want ot og back to Windows, but I will still say, keep it or you will be stuck.

[fbugnon]

I guess the point is rather how to show and explain to people what Linux is without letting passion control the arguments.

Open Source is great, Linux is wonderful, Ubuntu is fantastic. The more I know about it the more I'm sure about this.

But I feel this way because I care about it. Most people don't. Most people just want to use the computer to do something. Trying to convince them to switch, in this case, is meaningless and worthless because in their minds "wasting" time learning how the machine does the thing it does to save your time is a really waste of time...

Changing begins from the inside.

Mention just to let people know there is life beyond Windows and if they are interested about it, help them get in touch with it, learn about it if they want to, but be sensate -- show what's good and what's not -- and leave passion behind.

[Fri13]

I really don't think Linux adoption is as important an issue as the environment, though. Not really comparable.

Lets put it this way. The Linux (kernel) is free operating system and it needs very little from hardware, 486/4-8 Megabytes RAM. You can do all kind stuff with that "small" OS what you can download from http://kernel.org site.

And think about how many buys new computer because they have malware on their computer because MS?
How many buys new computer because they need new software what demands more from hardware what OS leaves for the application programs?

What if you could use your current computer next 10-15 years? That would place the hardware cycling very small. Software development would rise that developers would be demanded to use all possible resources as wisely as possible.

No more so much electronic waste and no more usage of natural resources to build new computers. The whole human race would start using existing resources more wisely. I have my old fast and powerfull computer. It is P3 475Mhz and I can do lots of things with it, even on today. HD videos does not run so well, but hey, it use only 89W electricity. Much less than todays top computers running Windows 7.

Netbooks, just perfect computers as laptops. Using only under 25W and you can do almost what every you want. HD videos even run on it (when encoded correctly with standard format) perfectly.

Linux IS answer for most users. And it is evven more important on the developing countries where they can learn from the mistakes of developed countries and start some day developing computers what are very wise using electricity and consuming other natural resources.

[MooPi]

I'm probably guilty of preaching, but I do it gentle. Recently though I gave a gift of a desktop to a dear friend. He was in need of something better than an old Sempron clunker running XP. I dropped a quad core with Ubuntu 9.01 on him and showed him all that it had to offer. I was hoping this didn't backfire. I was in luck and he loves surfing without fear of virus and maleware intrusion. He told me later that he should of listened to me years ago when I told him of the benefit of Linux. One successful preach.

[sdowney717]

for my fatherinlaw, it was pure necessity to switch to linux. His XP box died due to excessive visits to malware infested sites and downloads of suspicious virus filled video files, etc... The dell box he bought had no xp reinstall software CD, and i tired of having to vainly fix it, so i told him how ubuntu was free and no virus issues and he easily agreed.
It used to be a constand tirade of complaints from him when using XP, and now i almost never hear anything about the computer. I eventually built him a faster pc, and it was a pleasure to just swap in the drive and everything worked.

[Roasted]

Being in tech support, my friends and family often ask me what I think of certain products, namely Windows products. They always seem confused when my answer is along the lines of "well I haven't used it much, but it's all right." I guess they think I'd be using the stuff 247 and know the ins and outs. So then the big question always comes up:

So what do you use all day?

I never, never say "use this. right now. it's the best thing ever." But when I get asked about it, I'll pull out my Kubuntu laptop and explain to them how it works, what's happening, what's different, what I like about it, some comparable programs (k3b to nero, amarok to windows media player, etc).

I also note that Firefox and Openoffice come installed by default.

I think people put faith in something like Linux that they know nothing about because they know that I have my nose heavily in technology and I've used Ubuntu/Kubuntu exclusively for 5 years now and love it. So when they do ask for my opinion, and I give it, I feel like it's taken more seriously than me just saying Windows sucks use this it's great k peace out.

[Vignesh S]

Lets put it this way. The Linux (kernel) is free operating system and it needs very little from hardware, 486/4-8 Megabytes RAM. You can do all kind stuff with that "small" OS what you can download from http://kernel.org site.

And think about how many buys new computer because they have malware on their computer because MS?
How many buys new computer because they need new software what demands more from hardware what OS leaves for the application programs?

What if you could use your current computer next 10-15 years? That would place the hardware cycling very small. Software development would rise that developers would be demanded to use all possible resources as wisely as possible.

No more so much electronic waste and no more usage of natural resources to build new computers. The whole human race would start using existing resources more wisely. I have my old fast and powerfull computer. It is P3 475Mhz and I can do lots of things with it, even on today. HD videos does not run so well, but hey, it use only 89W electricity. Much less than todays top computers running Windows 7.

Netbooks, just perfect computers as laptops. Using only under 25W and you can do almost what every you want. HD videos even run on it (when encoded correctly with standard format) perfectly.

Linux IS answer for most users. And it is evven more important on the developing countries where they can learn from the mistakes of developed countries and start some day developing computers what are very wise using electricity and consuming other natural resources.

I totally agree with you there :-D. All of the computers right up until around 1993 are still operational with today's Linux, even my ancient Windows 95 desktop that my Dad threw out when me moved to another place. That could have easily handled Puppy Linux/Damn Small Linux. All of the old computers I am selling are more than capable of everyday use, even my old IBM Thinkpad R31. Only reason I'm doing so is because I don't need them anymore. I mean, one of them is still an extremely powerful computer, with around 2.5GHz processor and upgradeable to 2GB RAM, more than enough to run Ubuntu, with special effects from compiz, very smoothly

I seriously think that we should really use the resources we have got in front of us more wisely, but Microsoft isn't helping with that at all. Everyone is saying Windows 7 is faster than Vista, but no-one said anything about 7's increased minimum specifications over Vista (e.g. 512MB minimum for Vista vs 1GB RAM for 7).

As for what you said about buying a new computer because software won't work on the old hardware, that is unfortunately very true for me. I would have kept the IBM, but my mindmapping software lagged like hell on it, and because I'm heading into my last years of secondary school, stuff like this is very critical. So I had to get a new computer so it could use it smoothly.

Thing is though, it is human nature to push the boundaries, and I am very much guilty of being a part of that. We want go beyond, and are simply not content with using the technology we currently have. We always want to progress. That is human.

My conclusion? People should be entitled to push the boundaries, but if one wants to, they should also be able to use their old hardware with a modern OS that is very much functional.

[Georgia boy]

I don't preach but I do mention to friends and family about Ubuntu and let them know that there are plenty of other OS besides Windows. I tell them about Distro Watch so they can go and check out the wide varieties to choose from and check out. I also let them know about the various Open Source products available for use. I even give them links for the Open Source products for Windows just so they know what kind of things are available. I figure if they get interested in something like that then they might even branch out for a different OS than Windows. I even give the the links like Linux is Not Windows, Why Linux is better and other sites. I let them do the research at their own time and to check on their own.

Tom

[starcannon]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

Or one could try this on for size... don't preach about preaching.
Yes, I'm looking at you linsux.

[gadolinio]

I have been around the forums since last year, and have experienced this myself. It seems each new user to Ubuntu wants to preach its benefits to everyone and convert the world. Let me ask you this: when was the last time this worked to convert you to anything? It just doesn't work with humans. If you try to force the decision on most people, they will reject it. Its great that you love it, but maybe it won't work for someone else, or they are happy with what they have. Ubuntu isn't the end all operating system, it does have its flaws.

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked. Carry a livecd or usb so that when you are using someone else's computer you can use that on it to do your stuff. They will naturally be curious when you boot up to it. Just use it, and if they ask you questions patiently and kindly answer them. If this were to happen, not only would we get more people trying Linux, but we would have less rants in the User Testimonials & Experiences section, since misinformation would be less likely to be used to try to make them change.

Have a nice day/night everyone! Remember this the next time you go to preach! :KS

VERY wise advice.... Veeery wise....

[Mark Phelps]

There's nothing wrong with preaching, per se. Every "cause" need Evangelists -- folks who really BELIEVE and are eager to pass that along to others.

What we don't need -- and I've seen far too much of lately -- is those who feel entitled to "force" their beliefs on others. By example, I mean the folks that install Ubuntu (or any other Linux distro, I'm not picking on Ubuntu) and then force people to use that -- even though they grew up with MS Windows and are more comfortable in that world.

Whatever you personally think about MS Windows (or Macs), the BEST way to get someone to switch to Ubuntu (or any other Linux distro) is to show them first-hand what it does and how easy it is to learn. After they become comfortable with that, you can then tell them about the no-more-viruses, no more activation worries, and no more DRM -- things they no longer have to worry about after switching to Linux.

[gadolinio]

I totally agree with you there :-D. All of the computers right up until around 1993 are still operational with today's Linux, even my ancient Windows 95 desktop that my Dad threw out when me moved to another place. That could have easily handled Puppy Linux/Damn Small Linux. All of the old computers I am selling are more than capable of everyday use, even my old IBM Thinkpad R31. Only reason I'm doing so is because I don't need them anymore. I mean, one of them is still an extremely powerful computer, with around 2.5GHz processor and upgradeable to 2GB RAM, more than enough to run Ubuntu, with special effects from compiz, very smoothly

I seriously think that we should really use the resources we have got in front of us more wisely, but Microsoft isn't helping with that at all. Everyone is saying Windows 7 is faster than Vista, but no-one said anything about 7's increased minimum specifications over Vista (e.g. 512MB minimum for Vista vs 1GB RAM for 7).

As for what you said about buying a new computer because software won't work on the old hardware, that is unfortunately very true for me. I would have kept the IBM, but my mindmapping software lagged like hell on it, and because I'm heading into my last years of secondary school, stuff like this is very critical. So I had to get a new computer so it could use it smoothly.

Thing is though, it is human nature to push the boundaries, and I am very much guilty of being a part of that. We want go beyond, and are simply not content with using the technology we currently have. We always want to progress. That is human.

My conclusion? People should be entitled to push the boundaries, but if one wants to, they should also be able to use their old hardware with a modern OS that is very much functional.

I completely agree. And i might add something: i think it's not always a matter of progress (that would be, users who want better hardware); sometimes it's actually a matter of SALES (that is, users being sold new hardware they don't need nor wanted, but is newer... so the end up buying it).
This is only possible in a society where resources are sold and thrown away as if they were unlimited. This is an island selling and buying the entire world's resources, while others lack water, by the way... :S Why would we need an OS that deamands 1GB RAM at least, when we had computers with 512MB few years ago and they were perfect? Have our needs grown THAT much? Or are we just playing games (same shooting, but higher requirements), editing videos, etc.? We're pushing boundaries, as you said. And maybe we're taking it too far...

[DJ Barney]

I think the comments about the kind of society we live in are very valid. This blog post (http://www.ghabuntu.com/2010/01/5-reasons-why-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-may-be.html) got me thinking. It is basically another evangelical piece ... "this release will be linux for the masses". but what does this phrase mean ... "linux for the masses" ? Why do the masses use anything like Windows ? Is it because it is "better" ? I don't think so (BTW I regard windows as doing some things very well). The number of times I watched people who say they can "never switch to Linux" because they regard it as too technical or "geeky" and yet I'm watching them in front of Windows jumping through hoops and dealing with thorny issues all the time. The truth appears to have more to do with a widely used business plan that is applied across many industries and endeavours. Computing, Health, Agriculture, Poltics ... "Insert your patented toxic 'solution' to a problem and watch the money roll in as you charge by the hour for your 'fixes' to the problems that your toxic solution caused in the first place".

In computing this manifests as viruses and trojans and bloatware leading to ever increasing sales of hardware and security 'solutions'. We've all see the endless "trojan removal" program adverts out there that are themselves trojans ! In health (http://naturalnews.com/)we see the same tactic with the promotion of fast food diets that cause diseases that then have a patented toxic 'solution' that causes more diseases that can make a lot of money. Agriculture. Sell pesticides (another toxic 'solution') which tip the balance of nature leading to more pests and further pesticide sales. We're seeing this with the promotion of GM now while proven Organic Science is suppressed.

I could go on at length about other examples but my point is that a choice of OS is not always based on a simple choice. In fact "choice" is often the marketing mantra that excuses the extreme tactics used by the market. So, yes, mentioning is a very good tactic. But maybe even a little more than that is required ? How about mentioning with hardcore evidence ? There must be Scientific trials out there that prove that Linux improves productivity, or that it keeps companies secure from hackers. What do yuo think ?

[gadolinio]

I think the comments about the kind of society we live in are very valid. This blog post (http://www.ghabuntu.com/2010/01/5-reasons-why-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-may-be.html) got me thinking. It is basically another evangelical piece ... "this release will be linux for the masses". but what does this phrase mean ... "linux for the masses" ? Why do the masses use anything like Windows ? Is it because it is "better" ? I don't think so (BTW I regard windows as doing some things very well). The number of times I watched people who say they can "never switch to Linux" because they regard it as too technical or "geeky" and yet I'm watching them in front of Windows jumping through hoops and dealing with thorny issues all the time. The truth appears to have more to do with a widely used business plan that is applied across many industries and endeavours. Computing, Health, Agriculture, Poltics ... "Insert your patented toxic 'solution' to a problem and watch the money roll in as you charge by the hour for your 'fixes' to the problems that your toxic solution caused in the first place".

In computing this manifests as viruses and trojans and bloatware leading to ever increasing sales of hardware and security 'solutions'. We've all see the endless "trojan removal" program adverts out there that are themselves trojans ! In health (http://naturalnews.com/)we see the same tactic with the promotion of fast food diets that cause diseases that then have a patented toxic 'solution' that causes more diseases that can make a lot of money. Agriculture. Sell pesticides (another toxic 'solution') which tip the balance of nature leading to more pests and further pesticide sales. We're seeing this with the promotion of GM now while proven Organic Science is suppressed.

I could go on at length about other examples but my point is that a choice of OS is not always based on a simple choice. In fact "choice" is often the marketing mantra that excuses the extreme tactics used by the market. So, yes, mentioning is a very good tactic. But maybe even a little more than that is required ? How about mentioning with hardcore evidence ? There must be Scientific trials out there that prove that Linux improves productivity, or that it keeps companies secure from hackers. What do yuo think ?

Very interesting analysis.
+1!
Here's a phrase that a user from this forum posted somewhere:
"True virus protection should come in the form of a well structured operating system, not in the form of another piece of software to eat up your system resources."
This, extrapolated to other fields, would avoid the need of those toxic solutions...
Again, very interesting analysis...

[samh785]

For sure. As of this moment, I would recommend Ubuntu to an inexperienced user if they were close with somebody who was very knowledgeable about it. It's not quite newbie friendly, but *hopefully* someday it will be. :)

[Frak]

Very interesting analysis.
+1!
Here's a phrase that a user from this forum posted somewhere:
"True virus protection should come in the form of a well structured operating system, not in the form of another piece of software to eat up your system resources."
This, extrapolated to other fields, would avoid the need of those toxic solutions...
Again, very interesting analysis...
The operating system cannot protect you from viruses. There comes a time when mommy has to stop holding your hand, and if you want freedom over your system, mommy has to let go. The only system that cannot be infected is one that takes no input and gives no output.

[gadolinio]

The operating system cannot protect you from viruses. There comes a time when mommy has to stop holding your hand, and if you want freedom over your system, mommy has to let go. The only system that cannot be infected is one that takes no input and gives no output.

The OS shouldn't need to protect YOU from viruses; it should not be affected by them ITSELF. Viruses aren't bad kids at school, that go and hit you; they attack the system, as a simple hang up would do. A good OS should lack those weaknesses. This is not a matter of being brave, free, strong, independent; it's a matter of being smart. If we want to be really strong, we should sell the computer and go to the jungle to fight other animals or stg like that. I don't see how having a vulnerable system can be wise...

[art4med]

I agree with most of what's in this thread.... Preaching is indeed self-limiting.
and I will restrain my enthusiasm.
Since there IS no proof but self-proof, I have proposed something for my next group meeting in July [note: all attendees are professional illustrators, and most are addicted to Adobe on Mac]:
To open and make-operational a cheap PC to give away or or auction there (proceeds to an educational charity). So, they will have GIMP (also make it Wacom-tablet-compatible) and other standard installs for them to try-out. Sure, I will have several 10.4 live-CDs for the curious, but will well-remember the points made here.

Any suggestions pro/con or additions?
One question: why are most "Linux-pre-installed" boxes so $$$? Just "rarity"?

Thanks for a worthy thread.
Reminds me that I was once content with a MacIntosh 512, all apps under 400K.:)

[mmalone21]

One thing I have always found interesting is that when I turn off some of the unnecessary startup tasks and "eye candy" ie. Aero interface on windows pc machines is that hardware that is lower than the minimum requirements is able to run much better. In response to the topic over the past 12 years of Linux use I have done my share of preaching. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I don't think it is a catch all philosophy. You have to read people some people like to be preached to some do not. I believe I have used Linux long enough to be entitled to an opinion on it and sometime fell like I need to voice an opinion based on my positive and sometimes negative experiences. I like the quote that compares computes to cars; it goes something like if cars were like computers... http://count.leo.org/fun http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/cars.html_click LEO - Link Everything Online What if people bought cars like they buy computers?

General Motors doesn't have a "help line" for people who don't know how to drive, because people don't buy cars like they buy computers - but imagine if they did... Helpline: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" Customer: "I got in my car and closed the door, and nothing happened!" Helpline: "Did you put the key in the ignition and turn it?" Customer: "What's an ignition?" Helpline: "It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine." Customer: "Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all of these technical terms just to use my car?"
Helpline: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" Customer: "My car ran fine for a week, and now it won't go anywhere!" Helpline: "Is the gas tank empty?" Customer: "Huh? How do I know?" Helpline: "There's a little gauge on the front panel, with a needle, and markings from 'E' to 'F'. Where is the needle pointing?" Customer: "I see an 'E' but no 'F'." Helpline: "You see the 'E' and just to the right is the 'F'." Customer: "No, just to the right of the first 'E' is a 'V'." Helpline: "A 'V'?!?" Customer: "Yeah, there's a 'C', an 'H', the first 'E', then a 'V', followed by 'R', 'O', 'L' ..." Helpline: "No, no, no sir! That's the front of the car. When you sit behind the steering wheel, that's the panel I'm talking about." Customer: "That steering wheel thingy -- Is that the round thing that honks the horn?" Helpline: "Yes, among other things." Customer: "The needle's pointing to 'E'. What does that mean?" Helpline: "It means that you have to visit a gasoline vendor and purchase some more gasoline. You can install it yourself, or pay the vendor to install it for you." Customer: "What? I paid $12,000 for this car! Now you tell me that I have to keep buying more components? I want a car that comes with everything built in!" Helpline: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" Customer: "Your cars suck!" Helpline: "What's wrong?" Customer: "It crashed, that's what went wrong!" Helpline: "What were you doing?" Customer: "I wanted to go faster, so I pushed the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. It worked for a while, and then it crashed -- and now it won't even start up!" Helpline: "I'm sorry, sir, but it's your responsibility if you misuse the product." Customer: "Misuse it? I was just following this damned manual of yours. It said to make the car go to put the transmission in 'D' and press the accelerator pedal. That's exactly what I did -- now the damn thing's crashed." Helpline: "Did you read the entire operator's manual before operating the car sir?" Customer: "What? Of course I did! I told you I did EVERYTHING the manual said and it didn't work!" Helpline: "Didn't you attempt to slow down so you wouldn't crash?" Customer: "How do you do THAT?" Helpline: "You said you read the entire manual, sir. It's on page 14. The pedal next to the accelerator." Customer: "Well, I don't have all day to sit around and read this manual you know." Helpline: "Of course not. What do you expect us to do about it?" Customer: "I want you to send me one of the latest versions that goes fast and won't crash anymore!" Helpline: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" Customer: "Hi! I just bought my first car, and I chose your car because it has automatic transmission, cruise control, power steering, power brakes, and power door locks." Helpline: "Thanks for buying our car. How can I help you?" Customer: "How do I work it?" Helpline: "Do you know how to drive?" Customer: "Do I know how to what?" Helpline: "Do you know how to DRIVE?" Customer: "I'm not a technical person! I just want to go places in my car!" Sent in by:
Stefan Dalibor (http://faui30t.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:1200/Staff/dalibor/dalibor.html) - dalibor@immd3.informatik.uni-erlangen.de http://images.leo.org/icons/smiling.png (http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/funengl.html) http://images.leo.org/icons/links.png (http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/internet+sex_engl.html) http://images.leo.org/icons/rechts.png (http://www.leo.org/fun/bofh/) Anke Weinberger (http://www.leo.org/%7Eweinbean/), 1995-09-15

[3rdalbum]

I like the quote that compares computes to cars; it goes something like if cars were like computers... http://count.leo.org/fun http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/cars.html_click LEO - Link Everything Online What if people bought cars like they buy computers?

*snip*


An absolute classic. I'd forgotten about that one, but thanks for the laugh.

I like the one about airlines:

Linux Air

Disgruntled employees of all the other OS airlines decide to start their own airline. They build the planes, ticket counters, and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee to cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download and print the ticket yourself. When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the Seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

From: http://tldp.org/LDP/LG/issue45/orr.html

[Khakilang]

I usually mention to my circle of computer friends and let them do their testing. They know computer so they have heard of Linux before. When they ask I just say I am using Linux and all the benefit it offer. Than I leave it to them to find out.

Only selective newbies who are frustrated with serious virus attack and if they have a spare old computer that I can install and show them. Other than that I just keep my mouth shut.

[kaldor]

"One question: why are most "Linux-pre-installed" boxes so $$$? Just "rarity"?"

I feel the same.. you'd think that if a computer were priced at $1000 with Windows, it would be at LEAST $20 cheaper with Linux instead. But, when Dell had Ubuntu instead of Windows on some laptops, the Windows equivalents were still the same price!!

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/default.aspx

Home = 120
Pro = 300
Ultimate = 320

Shouldn't the 500 dollar laptop only be $380 if it comes without Windows 7 Home?

There must be an explainable reason behind it, since I've seen laptops for only $200 dollars with Windows Vista/7 before; theoretically, the computers could be worth only $80. Must be related to contracts or agreements between MS and companies like HP/Dell/Acer/etc.

It's the reason I bought an HP instead of a System76 laptop; I would have had to pay about 100 dollars MORE for the System76 that had slightly inferior specs to my 1000 dollar HP at the time. I removed Windows from it and dedicated it to Linux, but I still sadly had to pay for Windows. They wouldn't refund it either.

[standingwave]

"One question: why are most "Linux-pre-installed" boxes so $$$? Just "rarity"?".I suspect that at least part of the reason is that the manufacturer wouldn't get paid for preinstalling all that crippleware that ships with the average PC. I don't know exactly how much that amounts to but I do know that they charge you more if you want a Windows box without the crap.

[HermanAB]

`Value Pricing`.

Linux systems are worth more!

[Viva]

One of life's biggest lessons: Always preach. Preaching is good:D

[itreius]

Don't mention it until it improves.

[RiceMonster]

One of life's biggest lessons: Always preach. Preaching is good:D

Maybe if you don't want people to listen to you.

[mmalone21]

I suspect that at least part of the reason is that the manufacturer wouldn't get paid for preinstalling all that crippleware that ships with the average PC. I don't know exactly how much that amounts to but I do know that they charge you more if you want a Windows box without the crap.

I once convinced the manager of a small computer store I worked at part time to let me build and sell $200 computers on which installed Ubuntu 7.10. The store made about $30 dollars after they considered the hour and a half they paid me to build them and the cost of parts. After selling about 20 of them he decided that he was not making any "extra money" on software sales and nobody brought them in for virus removal. It was great while it lasted and I had customers come back over a year later wanting to buy more of them because they liked them so well. I left the store soon after and kept many of those people as customers.

[Viva]

Maybe if you don't want people to listen to you.

I don't know where you get that idea. Everybody listens to good preachers, most listen to even decent preachers. There is nothing wrong with preaching. Human civilizations won't flourish without preaching and evangelism of some sort.

[mmalone21]

I don't know where you get that idea. Everybody listens to good preachers, most listen to even decent preachers. There is nothing wrong with preaching. Human civilizations won't flourish without preaching and evangelism of some sort.

You make a very good point. Now that I think about it as a child growing up I sometimes needed to be to things more than once and since my grandfather was a preacher (Pastor of a Church) he never seemed to get tired of telling me the important rules of life and I am grateful for that. I am 24 years old and he is 80 and still going strong and preaching to anyone who will listen.

[RiceMonster]

I don't know where you get that idea. Everybody listens to good preachers, most listen to even decent preachers. There is nothing wrong with preaching. Human civilizations won't flourish without preaching and evangelism of some sort.

Perhaps if the situation is appropriate and you have something important to preach about (aka. something that isn't free software or Ubuntu). Otherwise, no. If someone were to stop you on the street and ask if you've heard the good word, will you wan to listen to them?

[cprofitt]

After reading through I think it is important to note that there is a difference between levels of preaching.



Zealot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot): Forceful preaching and hatred of people who use other operating systems These types may actually want to disrupt the events of other OSes, etc. (think of Stallman as the prototype)
Evangelist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism): Simply trying to raise the awareness of others about open source; in general thinks of Linux / FOSS as where computing needs to do. (think of Tim O'Reilly or Linus Torvald as the prototype)
Advocate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Messina_%28open_source_advocate%29): A person who uses and supports Linux but realizes that Linux (FOSS) is not the solution to all computing needs. They are a tone down version of the Evangelist.

I think that most of us would fall under the advocate banner and a few may fall under Evangelist. As others have said there is no way to force people to use product X and have them like it... so it is best to simply make people aware of alternatives.

[MooPi]

Persuasion is a fine art. Push to hard and the listener goes deaf. Push to little and they forget your talking. Finding a soft persuasive tone is critical to any argument. Your not going to sell Linux at a Microsoft vendors convention, These guys have to much involved to switch to Linux. Go where they aren't. I work in a non-technical field and recently a couple of coworkers computers crashed and burned from virus's and malware and they were talking about buying new. I persuaded them I could resurrect their computers with Linux and they'd never have to deal with virus's again. Someone else chimed in that Linux was bull and that Windows was better. I chose not to argue and they installed Windows and both now have virus's again. Guess who they came to about fixing their computers? I pushed soft and now I may have permanent Linux converts.

[cprofitt]

Persuasion is a fine art. Push to hard and the listener goes deaf. Push to little and they forget your talking. Finding a soft persuasive tone is critical to any argument. Your not going to sell Linux at a Microsoft vendors convention, These guys have to much involved to switch to Linux. Go where they aren't. I work in a non-technical field and recently a couple of coworkers computers crashed and burned from virus's and malware and they were talking about buying new. I persuaded them I could resurrect their computers with Linux and they'd never have to deal with virus's again. Someone else chimed in that Linux was bull and that Windows was better. I chose not to argue and they installed Windows and both now have virus's again. Guess who they came to about fixing their computers? I pushed soft and now I may have permanent Linux converts.

Not sure what you meant in that line, but I think it is valuable to attend conventions that have general users (currently MS or Apple customers) in attendance... if nothing more than they do not believe in 'products' unless they see a booth. I have done four conferences that are proprietary skewed and backed by MS and Apple in a major way. None of the other vendors were excited about us (except Dell which may get us some Linux Dell stuff for the next convention), but the attendees were all very interested and wanted to learn more. In fact at one of our presentations we had to borrow chairs from another room (proprietary company) because we ran out of chairs and in the end it ended up being standing room only. The key there was we were just there -- and people showed up to listen and ask questions.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Events/20100325
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Events/20090604
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Events/20090326

We have another White Hat Security Day coming up this May (they moved the event up) and we were asked to do two presentations this year.

[standingwave]

I like the quote that compares computes to cars; it goes something like if cars were like computers... http://count.leo.org/fun http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/cars.html_click LEO - Link Everything Online What if people bought cars like they buy computers?Heh, that reminds me of this old classic:
http://www.joke-archives.com/computers/1776.html
Sometimes computers just get in the way...

[kumoshk]

Instead of trying to convert everyone by preaching to them, just mention it when asked.
Very insightful. Good advice. Heh, heh—though what I've found most effective is to let people borrow one of my computers and then not tell them it's Linux until they've been using it for a month.