It's all about the Choice... so don't remove it!

[ryaxnb]

The main advantage of Linux, other than avoiding MS and the Free Software philosophy, to me is choice. Linux offers tremendous choice so there's bound to be something for everyone. GNOME, KDE, Xfce, JWM, LXDE, ... and Arch, Mandriva, Fedora, Slackware, Zenwalk, Vector, Ubuntu, Xubuntu, ... and of course choices in application software, like text editors, and mix-n-matchable choices (use PCManFM on Xfce, Xfwm with LXDE, Xfe with fluxbox, LXPanel with JWM and Gedit, etc...) That is the greatest thing about Linux. Mac tries to "lock you in" to iLife, Finder, iApps, and Mac hardware, PC tries to "lock you in" to IBM-compatibles (Linux runs on so much more, PPC, SPARC, MIPS, etc.) and Windows and as a result to Office, Windows Explorer, the Windows iconset and looks, and WMP, and all that.
Linux doesn't lock you into anything, not even the GNU coreutils (you COULD use BSD or busybox) so in my view this is the best thing about Linux.
Contrary Opinions>

[aysiu]

I like choice, but I don't think it's the best thing about Linux. These are the things I love about Linux: Fully functioning distros as live CDs Community Package managers Lack of activation keys, restrictive licenses, and malware I'm not down on Macs, though. I happen to like Macs a lot, actually. I just don't like how people keep pretending Mac OS X is more intuitive than other operating systems or that Macs always "just work" (they actually sometimes fail, believe it or not).

[ryaxnb]

I like choice, but I don't think it's the best thing about Linux. These are the things I love about Linux: Fully functioning distros as live CDs Community Package managers Lack of activation keys, restrictive licenses, and malware I'm not down on Macs, though. I happen to like Macs a lot, actually. I just don't like how people keep pretending Mac OS X is more intuitive than other operating systems or that Macs always "just work" (they actually sometimes fail, believe it or not). Mac OS X, is IMHO, more intuitive and more friendly then other OSes... I say this typing on my trusty iBook G4. It is decidedly less flexible, and of course it doesn't always "just work" (i'd say more then Ubuntu, though, for the obvious reason of being designed to run on one brand of hardware, and do that very well.) Sometimes it fails, and I've had kernel panics in OS X, or system freezes, or times when the Finder won't restart after a crash, etc. but overall it's pretty nice.

[Canis familiaris]

I like Linux due to its power of customization and its powerful terminal (believe it or not)

[JagDragon]

I'm not down on Macs, though. I happen to like Macs a lot, actually. I just don't like how people keep pretending Mac OS X is more intuitive than other operating systems or that Macs always "just work" (they actually sometimes fail, believe it or not).

IMO, they are very intuitive, sleek, almost never break, look pretty, "just work", and a whole lot of other things. I could go on. The downside is they cost you an arm and a leg.

I love Linux for its low hardware requirements. Right now I'm running Xubuntu on a 300Mhz laptop with 64MB of RAM, and Firefox is running fine! If I brought this pile of junk anywhere near something like XP, spontaneous combustion would happen.
And Vista. Don't get me started! That ... THING ... chews memory like you wouldn't believe for no apparent reason. You open the thing and it idles on about 700MB of RAM and 30% CPU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm running Ubuntu on my main computer with 3D desktop effects and a web server and a load of other junk and it idles on maybe 200MB or less!

in the end, Mac if you have the money, Ubuntu if you don't, and ******* if you feel like throwing away money randomly for no apparent reason.

/rant

[aysiu]

IMO, they are very intuitive, sleek, almost never break, look pretty, "just work", and a whole lot of other things. I could go on.


Mac OS X, is IMHO, more intuitive and more friendly then other OSes... Apparently, people are still insisting that Mac is more intuitive than other OSes.

Let me give you some examples, though, of how it was not intuitive for me when I first started using it: The Delete key doesn't delete files. I have to press Cmd-Delete to get them to actually move to the trash. Dragging a volume to the trash ejects it instead of formatting it or erasing its contents. Double-clicking a .dmg file doesn't install the application. I have to double-click it to get a white disk thingy, open the white disk thingy, drag an icon from there to the Applications folder, and then eject the white disk thingy. Cmd-Tabbing to a minimized application doesn't restore it (it stays minimized but "focused"). Closing the last window of an application doesn't quit the application. There's no easy keyboard way to navigate the menus in an application (the way you can use Alt in Windows and Linux. All those keys in the bottom-left corner of the keyboard confuse me, and I don't understand how the symbols that represent them in keyboard shortcut dialogues match up with the actual keys. That's all I can think of right now, but there's definitely more, like being unable to cut and paste files easily (Cmd-X and Cmd-V would be a great shortcut to actually work).

Now, I'm not saying Macs are unusable. They're about as usable as Linux or Windows is. Every major OS has its perks and its downsides. I'm just pointing out Mac's downsides, since some people like to put Mac on a pedestal (as you can see from the snippets I quoted). Macs are not more intuitive than Linux or Windows. Not by a long shot.

If you want to read about why I don't think Mac "just works" any more than other OSes, check out these links:
My wife "dist-upgraded" to Tiger and it messed up her user profile... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=80341)
Macs are just computers, not magic (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/macs-are-just-computers-not-magic/)
Macs are computers, not magic (part 2) (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/macs-are-computers-not-magic-part-2/)

I do agree, however, that Macs are pretty and sleek. I really don't understand people who think Macs are ugly. Almost everyone I know who wants a Mac wants one mainly for the eye candy.

[toupeiro]

Apparently, people are still insisting that Mac is more intuitive than other OSes.

Let me give you some examples, though, of how it was not intuitive for me when I first started using it: The Delete key doesn't delete files. I have to press Cmd-Delete to get them to actually move to the trash. Dragging a volume to the trash ejects it instead of formatting it or erasing its contents. Double-clicking a .dmg file doesn't install the application. I have to double-click it to get a white disk thingy, open the white disk thingy, drag an icon from there to the Applications folder, and then eject the white disk thingy. Cmd-Tabbing to a minimized application doesn't restore it (it stays minimized but "focused"). Closing the last window of an application doesn't quit the application. There's no easy keyboard way to navigate the menus in an application (the way you can use Alt in Windows and Linux. All those keys in the bottom-left corner of the keyboard confuse me, and I don't understand how the symbols that represent them in keyboard shortcut dialogues match up with the actual keys. That's all I can think of right now, but there's definitely more, like being unable to cut and paste files easily (Cmd-X and Cmd-V would be a great shortcut to actually work).

+1!

For something to be intuitive it implies a sense of natural integration of the user into its environment. A.k.a. Even someone who has never used a MAC before can, within minutes, familiarize themselves with the interface enough to get through some of the basic operations as Ayisu as listed. I have used MACs before, and I don't find them very intuitive at all. Sure, they have a clean appearance, but that doesn't imply intuitiveness.

I always thought buying something apple was kind of like buying something Sony. At times, you pay more for the name and the proprietary components than the quality of said components.

[JagDragon]

The Delete key doesn't delete files. I have to press Cmd-Delete to get them to actually move to the trash.
Backspace does, though.

Dragging a volume to the trash ejects it instead of formatting it or erasing its contents.
Yay, one-click formatting! What I always wanted!

Double-clicking a .dmg file doesn't install the application. I have to double-click it to get a white disk thingy, open the white disk thingy, drag an icon from there to the Applications folder, and then eject the white disk thingy.
No retaliation. One of the things I ADORE about Linux is package managers.

Cmd-Tabbing to a minimized application doesn't restore it (it stays minimized but "focused").
There is the old click, though.

Closing the last window of an application doesn't quit the application.
No, but Apple+Q closes all of the windows of an app with one keystroke, a feature I find quite handy.

There's no easy keyboard way to navigate the menus in an application (the way you can use Alt in Windows and Linux.
I have never-ever done that ever.

All those keys in the bottom-left corner of the keyboard confuse me, and I don't understand how the symbols that represent them in keyboard shortcut dialogues match up with the actual keys.
There are like three symbols that you have to remember.

I could do this all night. I must agree though, all OSs have their goods and their bads, it's up to you to choose what suits you best. (For me, free suits me nicely.)

[billgoldberg]

Backspace does, though.

Yay, one-click formatting! What I always wanted!

No retaliation. One of the things I ADORE about Linux is package managers.

There is the old click, though.

No, but Apple+Q closes all of the windows of an app with one keystroke, a feature I find quite handy.

I have never-ever done that ever.

There are like three symbols that you have to remember.

I could do this all night. I must agree though, all OSs have their goods and their bads, it's up to you to choose what suits you best. (For me, free suits me nicely.)

Why even bother replying to aysiu?

If what aysiu was saying is true, you can only come over as a fanboy by defending osx.

[karellen]

choice is good, but only if people actually know what they are choosing (for example to prefer KDE to Gnome means, imho, to have used them both)

[DeadSuperHero]

Why even bother replying to aysiu?

If what aysiu was saying is true, you can only come over as a fanboy by defending osx.
Er, he does make some valid arguements. And he didn't come off as a fanboy, he's not yelling "LOLZ MACS R BETTR! M$ IS EVIL!" like so many of our forum users tend to do.

[kko1]

OFwRA!

(Old Flamewar Revival Alert.)

One thing that I think would help understand these discussions is that one person's intuition works differently from another's.

(By the way, I use Kubuntu and Mac OS X, and neither one is perfect for me.)

EDIT: And to keep with the topic, I'll say that choice applies both within Linux and without. ;)

[aysiu]

Of course, Backspace is a lot more intuitive than Delete to delete a file. How silly of me.

[kko1]

Topic: Intuitiveness


Macs are not more intuitive than Linux or Windows. (with examples)


(a detailed response to aysiu's examples, with admittance that) all OSs have their goods and their bads


Why even bother replying to aysiu?

If what aysiu was saying is true, you can only come over as a fanboy by defending osx.


The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.

:D ;) :-\"

[aysiu]

I also admitted all OSes have their goods and bads. I spelled out some of the counterintuitive aspects of OS X because some people seem to overlook OS X's bads.

[cardinals_fan]

OS X is a nightmare to use with a keyboard. My most frustrating computing experience was on a Mac with a broken mouse.

@topic: choice is essential. I love it!

[ryaxnb]

please stay on topic. Macs are nice, but not perfect and have flaws. I don't care if anyone else says they suck, that's their opinion and in some ways they do anyway. /sub-argument

Ah! Being so nice caused all flamewars on this forum to go away, thus making Recurring Discussions disappear into a void of nothingness! :D :lolflag:

[toupeiro]

Of course, Backspace is a lot more intuitive than Delete to delete a file. How silly of me.

I was thinking the same thing. To put a finer point on things, the comment was that OSX is more intuitive than other OSes.. I fail to see where backspace is more intuitive than the delete key in deleting a file...

With regard to keyboard navigation of menus, while you in reference to JagDragon have never done this, there are plenty of people who do. This has been one of my beefs with Macs interface as well. I sometimes find the mouse too slow and cumbersome for certain tasks. In Windows, for example, when hotkeys work by alt changing context, and its hot-key alphabetical after that, it becomes very fast to function, without the chance of mis-clicking. Flag+r | services.msc brings up services rather than clicking start | move cursor settings | move cursor to control panel| click control panel | navigate to administrative tools | double-click administrative tools| find the services icon | double-click services icon.

I'm not saying one way is right and the other is wrong, but I am saying there is a multitude of ways to make general computing easier by learning keyboard commands, and being locked into only using the mouse feels like taking steps backwards in functionality rather than forward.

You will get no argument out of me that there are pros and cons to every OS out there, but in my opinion MAC is in no way more intuitive than its competition.

[Ozor Mox]

I think the claims of Macs being more intuitive is simply their marketing department hard at work. I don't think it can be said better than billgoldberg's signature.

[aysiu]

Okay. I checked the Macbook Pro and external Apple keyboard. There is no Backspace key. There is, however, a Delete key where Backspace usually is, and if you hit that key when a file is selected, nothing happens. As I said before, you have to hit Cmd-Delete to send the file to the trash, not just Delete.

[JagDragon]

Okay. I checked the Macbook Pro and external Apple keyboard. There is no Backspace key. There is, however, a Delete key where Backspace usually is, and if you hit that key when a file is selected, nothing happens. As I said before, you have to hit Cmd-Delete to send the file to the trash, not just Delete.

Wow, that's weird! Was that on Leopard? Because the Mac I have downstairs running Tiger deletes stuff when you hit the backspace/delete key.

Let's get this straight: I am not a Mac fanboy, if anything I am probably an open-source fanboy. I just respect Macs because they look so good and work so well. But, as I said before, totally open-source free OS's (Ubuntu) suit me nicely. I especially like the package manager.

[23meg]

This is going to be off topic given the definition of choice in the first post, but the thread has gone other directions off topic already, so I don't really care.

I'm puzzled as to why people who think "It's all about the choice" and go to great lengths to argue for "the choice" for its own sake find Ubuntu suitable to themselves. Ubuntu takes away "the choice" all over the place, beginning with the installer, by giving you a default set of packages which you cannot modify.

Pretty much every step a free operating system takes to simplify things or make them easier for a defined audience is a step that takes away "the choice". Successful ones tend to strike the right balance between flexibility and working defaults.

An unmissable opportunity to float the famous quote once again:


In addition to these ample facilities, there exists a powerful configuration tool called gcc.

It's not "all about the choice". Choice takes place solely on the taker's part, involves compromise by definition, and is usually burdensome, sometimes to an extent that may make it deterrent. It's all about the availability, the freedom, defaults that work, and just the right amount and form of flexibility.

[ryaxnb]

This is going to be off topic given the definition of choice in the first post, but the thread has gone other directions off topic already, so I don't really care.

I'm puzzled as to why people who think "It's all about the choice" and go to great lengths to argue for "the choice" for its own sake find Ubuntu suitable to themselves. Ubuntu takes away "the choice" all over the place, beginning with the installer, by giving you a default set of packages which you cannot modify.

Pretty much every step a free operating system takes to simplify things or make them easier for a defined audience is a step that takes away "the choice". Successful ones tend to strike the right balance between flexibility and working defaults.

An unmissable opportunity to float the famous quote once again:



It's not "all about the choice". Choice takes place solely on the taker's part, involves compromise by definition, and is usually burdensome, sometimes to an extent that may make it deterrent. It's all about the availability, the freedom, defaults that work, and just the right amount and form of flexibility.

Ubuntu takes away choice. But I also run Mandriva and Suse, and Ubuntu's base set is so minimal that most of my packages are custom add-ons.
Granted, I run the base set frequently, but I also run a almost all non-base setup. Links-hacked, Xterm, Konsole, KDE, JWM, Xfe, PcmanFM, Wine, etc. are pretty typical programs on my desktop. Tracker? Ekiga? Never, and I don't care that their taking up space cause I have lots of space and I like having everything on my Linux box anyway. Mandriva and SuSE are somewhat more choice friendly distros, and they're all so much happier with me "choosing" a new DE, FM, or media player then Mac or Windows.

[schauerlich]

OS X is a nightmare to use with a keyboard. My most frustrating computing experience was on a Mac with a broken mouse.

@topic: choice is essential. I love it!

Quicksilver makes task switching a lot easier. Set up a couple of macros on unused function keys (which is most of them) and you can start a program, or if it's already running, switch to it. I couldn't get along without it.

[Bachstelze]

Ubuntu takes away "the choice" all over the place, beginning with the installer, by giving you a default set of packages which you cannot modify.

Wrong. The default Ubuntu installer does. And you know what? I don't care the slightest bit about it. If you want choice, you'll get it. There is a minimal CD.

[aysiu]

Wow, that's weird! Was that on Leopard? Because the Mac I have downstairs running Tiger deletes stuff when you hit the backspace/delete key. Yup. Running Leopard on a Macbook Pro. But it had the same behavior when my wife ran both Panther and Tiger on her previous Powerbook, too. As you can see from Apple's official documentation, it's Cmd-Delete, not Delete:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1343


Let's get this straight: I am not a Mac fanboy, if anything I am probably an open-source fanboy. I just respect Macs because they look so good and work so well. But, as I said before, totally open-source free OS's (Ubuntu) suit me nicely. I especially like the package manager. I agree with everything you say in this second part.

[23meg]

Wrong. The default Ubuntu installer does. And you know what? I don't care the slightest bit about it. If you want choice, you'll get it. There is a minimal CD.

Hence part of my point: "the choice" being readily available all over the place is not as critical as many make it out to be. The code is out there, and unless it's deprecated and/or in some way incompatible with other code that you also want to run, it can't possibly taken from you.

[aysiu]

I don't think of choice as lack of defaults. I think of choice as the ability to change the defaults.

So, in the way I think of it, Ubuntu doesn't take away your choice. It just makes some initial choices for you. If you want to replace the defaults with something else, Ubuntu won't stop you.

And, you always have the option to use the mini.iso or command-line install option from the Alternate CD .iso to start from scratch and add only the packages you want.

[Bachstelze]

Hence part of my point: "the choice" being readily available all over the place is not as critical as many make it out to be.

Agreed. But I really don't have the feeling that Ubuntu is taking anything at all. You have a desktop CD, that installs a pre-defined set of packages and whcih you can use if you want to. To me, it's more adding choice, since it gives you an extra option, that taking it away.

[23meg]

I do agree with both of the above points; the difference is one of semantics, which the "give me the choice!!111" people don't seem to observe, hence my using "the choice" in quotes.

If one wants "the choice" "all the way", the Ubuntu desktop installer does take that away, and perhaps GCC is the way to go. And therein lies the absurdity: if you want so much choice to be readily available to you, why use Ubuntu, or more specifically, the default Ubuntu desktop installation, when there are better options?

[BDNiner]

One the pitfalls of choice, at least in my case. I find that i spend so much time trying out new software instead of actually being productive. I really like it though. but in just over a year of using linux i have been the least productive than any other time, but have tried out various software that really does the same thing that software i already have does. I need to settle on some basic software, i am in the process actually of putting together a testing box so that i can try new software on a machine that is not my main computer.

[Bachstelze]

Define "productive".

[BDNiner]

using the computer to perform tasks that you take you longer with out it. In my case things that i used to do on the computer like CAD, programming, music production have taken a back seat to testing various kinds of software. I had the feeling that linux would help me especially when it came to programming but it has and has not at the same time. I understand a lot more about the theories behind programming because i have tried various languages and development environments, and complied a lot of software but the actual number of programs i have worked on has declined.