A rebuilt internet?

[Achetar]

Do you think that we need to rethink the internet? I mean that when it was originally created, we didn't have any (or very few) graphical displays, only the CLI. I know many web developers are frustrated with both HTML and XHTML, and I am one of them. Do you think the internet needs to be redesigned from the ground up to maximise transfer speed and provide dynamic elements in the web page language (maybe Lua or Python?).

The goal would be to provide true dynamic content. Like flash, the page never really reloads, it just changes. This would simplify things immensly instead of using, say, POST or GET.

Please post your thoughts on this.

[Frak]

The internet is being redesigned every day. I don't see what you mean.

[fatality_uk]

Do you think that we need to rethink the internet? I mean that when it was originally created, we didn't have any (or very few) graphical displays, only the CLI. I know many web developers are frustrated with both HTML and XHTML, and I am one of them. Do you think the internet needs to be redesigned from the ground up to maximise transfer speed and provide dynamic elements in the web page language (maybe Lua or Python?).

The goal would be to provide true dynamic content. Like flash, the page never really reloads, it just changes. This would simplify things immensly instead of using, say, POST or GET.

Please post your thoughts on this.

AJAX
If you want dynamic content on a static page, it's already here. I have been using AJAX since before it was called AJAX :D
Do a quick web search for this and see what's possible. "Web applications" are really starting to develop the web

[arsenic23]

websites =\= the internet

And for that matter, as for my opinion, the closer a website is to a book the better.

[wootah]

I think the governments (Canada, US) need to invest heavily into faster network technology instead of war (US).

Just sayin' ...

[LaRoza]

I think the governments (Canada, US) need to invest heavily into faster network technology instead of war (US).

Just sayin' ...

I think people have to stop putting everything on the governments and focus on what matters.

[arsenic23]

I think people have to stop putting everything on the governments and focus on what matters.

Word. I live in a rural area, and instead of bothering the telecom companies and the state to push high speed internet outword, we've been trying to get a movement started to collect the money independantly to pay for the lines.

[gilgongo]

Looking at the way things are going in the States, Canada, and in some parts of Europe, the problems of how best to deliver a good user experience on the net pales into total insiginificance compared to the problems that we're going to face in being able to use it as we do now. The whole RIAA, DMCA, DRM, spam and security thing is going to mean we're going to have a to fight a locked down, traffic-shaped, pay-per-packet Internet before too long. The more I find out about the net neutrality debate, the blacker the future looks for us.

[Achetar]

I can see that I didn't quite make my point clear. I know that Ajax is very, very, good at some dynamics, but it falls short in the speed in more areas than one. One example is GMail, it runs moderately well, but using Evolution or Thunderbird is far faster. I know that with some things (dynamic menus, for example) the speed difference is hardly noticeable, but to do massive dynamic things like a forum or email system at a reasonable speed (aka near-instantaneously) would require something beyond what Ajax offers.

For reference, GMail takes 6.139 seconds to load in Opera 9.50 on Gentoo Linux.

[mech7]

I can see that I didn't quite make my point clear. I know that Ajax is very, very, good at some dynamics, but it falls short in the speed in more areas than one. One example is GMail, it runs moderately well, but using Evolution or Thunderbird is far faster. I know that with some things (dynamic menus, for example) the speed difference is hardly noticeable, but to do massive dynamic things like a forum or email system at a reasonable speed (aka near-instantaneously) would require something beyond what Ajax offers.

For reference, GMail takes 6.139 seconds to load in Opera 9.50 on Gentoo Linux.

That is because evo or thunderbird are compile programs that run from your hdd and not from a network... ever used outlook in a network enviroment.. it can be butt slow too :lolflag:

Only thing missing from AJAX is push capability... there is not a cheap / fast / opensource solution for this yet i think..

[Achetar]

There are other things as well that are missing from Ajax. Maybe not that you have run into, but a couple things that seem to be needed for many applications are not in there.

[fatality_uk]

I can see that I didn't quite make my point clear. I know that Ajax is very, very, good at some dynamics, but it falls short in the speed in more areas than one. One example is GMail, it runs moderately well, but using Evolution or Thunderbird is far faster. I know that with some things (dynamic menus, for example) the speed difference is hardly noticeable, but to do massive dynamic things like a forum or email system at a reasonable speed (aka near-instantaneously) would require something beyond what Ajax offers.

For reference, GMail takes 6.139 seconds to load in Opera 9.50 on Gentoo Linux.

They always will be. A complied application doesn't have too many network overheads to worry about.



but to do massive dynamic things like a forum or email system at a reasonable speed (aka near-instantaneously) would require something beyond what Ajax offers

Over the net, yes, for now. Over an intranet, not so. We are developing complex AJAX sites over the course of the next 9-12 months. The speed will be enough to use it in an enterprise situation..

[fatality_uk]

There are other things as well that are missing from Ajax. Maybe not that you have run into, but a couple things that seem to be needed for many applications are not in there.

Such as?

[wootah]

I think people have to stop putting everything on the governments and focus on what matters.

I suppose we, the people, have the millions/billions of dollars to invest into additional hardware infrastructure?

Issues that matter? Yes, DMCA, C-DMCA and Net Neutrality--in regards to the internet. To start, getting the government off of their corporate favoritism would help but it is probably a wasted effort for the near future.

Will extensive traffic shaping, tier'd internet, filtering or pay-per-packet come into play? Probably.
Could we vote against it? Yes.
Would we? Those educated in it yes, but the media/government spin would make it sound like it is in our best interest to let it pass.
Will they do whatever it takes to make it pass? Most likely.
Will we riot and try to get it changed? Maybe a small group, if that.

Like those above me mentioned, the internet's open future is somewhat bleak. True, lot's of companies require the internet to survive, but once again, I could see some nasty crap happening that allows 'certain' companies carte blanches for access.

In this matter of things: :(

[Achetar]

Not hardware restructuring, software restructuring. Ditching the current browsers and web languages, and replacing them with software/languages designed and built from the ground up with a set of standards in mind (similar to the w3c).

Separate implementations of a language could be used for script sites (maybe using Python, to allow faster development) and byte-compiled sites (like when you byte compile a java applet, it runs slightly faster. But if you were writing a memory intensive program, like a RuneScape clone or something, then bytecompiling it would have huge benefits)

I agree with wootah on the fact that the future of the internet looks bleak. A pay-per-packet system would be like an expensive pay-per-minute cell phone plan.

[Zeotronic]

If we rebuild the internet from the ground up the badguys win... but on net neutrality, I suppose I haven't heard anything specific, but it doesn't sound to me like the system their proposing could even work. A lot of people would get angry very fast, and I'm not talking about the average consumer either.

[lisati]

AJAX
If you want dynamic content on a static page, it's already here. I have been using AJAX since before it was called AJAX :D
Do a quick web search for this and see what's possible. "Web applications" are really starting to develop the web

While I can appreciate that some websites need to be cleaned up, I'm wondering how this product (http://www.totalsupplies.com/itemdetails.aspx?&item=CPM41197) can be adapted,,,,,

[wootah]

While I can appreciate that some of some websites needs to be cleaned up, I'm wondering how this product (http://www.totalsupplies.com/itemdetails.aspx?&item=CPM41197) can be adapted,,,,,

:lolflag: niiicee

[Delever]

Rebuild what? Are you aware that Web server protocol (http://ubuntuforums.org:80) is only one of zilion protocols on the internet? You can always invent other way to dislay pages over different port, you can invent new markup language (to replace html), new scripting language (you suggest python) to replace javascript, etc. What I am saying, that basically, you can create new program, which would use port 90 (instead of current 80) to access web server in some different way than current web browsers do. You can see that differences start to blur fast.

Now, ajax key feature is relying on single javascript function to get data from server based on request parameters. You can expand that, but I would not call that "rebuilt internet".

EDIT: OK, I see the point of making page rendering more dynamic and faster. Or really do I? Check out this site for very cool DHTML examples -> http://www.dhteumeuleu.com/

Basically, my point was... : Leave My Internets Alone!!!!!!11111111 :D