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View Full Version : fair competition? i think not.....



weeman7007
June 22nd, 2008, 03:18 PM
I don't know how this is in other countries but in the UK companies such as PC World only sell computers with Windows installed, where is the alternative?????? in any other industry this would be an unfair advantage, how would people react if companies such as Tesco only sold one brand of crisps? (eg. walkers or Mccoy's) there'd be public outrage as to the monopolisation of the market. This is not so in the world of OS. Why don't they decide on a linux (ubuntu would be best as it rocks for beginners) to distribute as an alternative, of course the computer prices would be much lower than Windows PCs but this would be a much fairer market. Plus it would force MS to actually create something worthwhile instead of a heap of *bleep* they called vista... 1gb ram, i thought was not too shabby, when its not doing anything its using 50-60% of it!

Barrucadu
June 22nd, 2008, 03:20 PM
It's because people expect Windows, and many people don't even know what Windows is - they just think it's the computer. Giving the average person something other than Windows (or a Mac) would just result in them giving up and asking a knowledgable friend to install XP or Vista.

BWF89
June 22nd, 2008, 03:36 PM
You could always shop somewhere else if you don't' like something about their computers. There are companies that sell systems with Linux preinstalled or even with no operating system at all. If you don't like what one company is selling though that doesn't give you the right to demand that the government use force against some store just because you don't like how their doing business.

jeremy1138
June 22nd, 2008, 03:44 PM
It's because people expect Windows, and many people don't even know what Windows is - they just think it's the computer. Giving the average person something other than Windows (or a Mac) would just result in them giving up and asking a knowledgable friend to install XP or Vista.

I agree, most people don't understand what Windows is and, if presented with a choice, they're going to go with what they know. The average computer user that just uses their computer to surf the internet and send emails isn't going to want to learn a new os; they can probably barely figure out how to use the windows os that they are so used to. I know a lot of people like this.

Fedz
June 22nd, 2008, 03:57 PM
They can have what they want installed for all I care as long as the price is right or cheaper for the specs :-)

Whilst in eg: PCW, you can simply goto Start > Control Panel > System and check out the hardware to see if it's worthy of an upgrade to Linux/Ubuntu when you get the baby home ;-)

Trouble is it might invalidate the warranty :confused:

fatality_uk
June 22nd, 2008, 04:24 PM
There's a number of different reasons as to why PCW and other sell only Windows PC's. They were the only game in town at one point. And to be honest, they are in business to make money so why not sell Windows.

You only have to look at companies like AMD, HP, Google, Dell and others to see that support for Linux is coming thick and fast and within a few years, it's likely that we will see Linux PC's in the high street.

DrMega
June 22nd, 2008, 09:18 PM
I don't know how this is in other countries but in the UK companies such as PC World only sell computers with Windows installed, where is the alternative??????

I think if somebody is going to go to PC World for their new computer, then they deserve to have Windows pre-installed. They obviously enjoy throwing good money away, and PC World target the type of customer that doesn't actually want a choice.

PC World once advertised a service that they (and only they - or that was the implication) can provide for only £50 where they will run a "full health check" on your PC, despite the fact that the very same shop sells the software that they would use to do that.

There are shops here in the UK where you do get a choice, but as far as I can tell they are mainly the small independent retailers that will build you a machine to your specification.

fatality_uk
June 22nd, 2008, 09:24 PM
I think if somebody is going to go to PC World for their new computer, then they deserve to have Windows pre-installed. They obviously enjoy throwing good money away, and PC World target the type of customer that doesn't actually want a choice

That's harsh IMHO. PCW has a target market because there is a market there. They don't drag people kicking and screaming off the street. As you would expect, most people here in these forums have a good deal of PC knowledge. The people visiting PCW don't usually. For them it's a "WHITE GOOD" in the same way a washing machine is.

madjr
June 22nd, 2008, 09:27 PM
there should be laws against this type of crap monopolies (i hope the EU does something about it)

fatality_uk
June 22nd, 2008, 09:29 PM
there should be laws against this type of crap monopolies (i hope the EU does something about it)

There are. The EU made a judgement against Microsoft years ago. They just refused to pay up :D

FranMichaels
June 22nd, 2008, 09:31 PM
I don't know how this is in other countries but in the UK companies such as PC World only sell computers with Windows installed, where is the alternative?????? in any other industry this would be an unfair advantage, how would people react if companies such as Tesco only sold one brand of crisps? (eg. walkers or Mccoy's) there'd be public outrage as to the monopolisation of the market. This is not so in the world of OS. Why don't they decide on a linux (ubuntu would be best as it rocks for beginners) to distribute as an alternative, of course the computer prices would be much lower than Windows PCs but this would be a much fairer market. Plus it would force MS to actually create something worthwhile instead of a heap of *bleep* they called vista... 1gb ram, i thought was not too shabby, when its not doing anything its using 50-60% of it!

Microsoft didn't get its OS's on all those boxes by playing fair.

http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653#comes

Just take a look at the Exhibit section, shocking (well I'm too cynical about MS to be shocked by it, but for some it might be ;) )

Now many people are entrenched, whether it is a vertical software stack or just expecting Windows to be on there...

Same as those comments (which sicken me to the core) "We'll all be running Vista sooner or later".

Fortunately though, we "all" won't. Unless you want to I suppose, but that's another matter if it has become optional... :popcorn:

DrMega
June 22nd, 2008, 09:33 PM
That's harsh IMHO. PCW has a target market because there is a market there. They don't drag people kicking and screaming off the street. As you would expect, most people here in these forums have a good deal of PC knowledge. The people visiting PCW don't usually. For them it's a "WHITE GOOD" in the same way a washing machine is.

That was my point. Maybe I worded it a bit harshly though. PC World will liberate the contents of your wallet/purse at every opportunity. What I meant was that the people who shop there offer little resistance to this liberation of funds, because it is easier for them that way than doing a bit of homework. I think there is also an element of the attitude that PC World advertises most so must be the best.

Fedz
June 22nd, 2008, 09:56 PM
Microsoft didn't get its OS's on all those boxes by playing fair.

http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653#comes ...

That link you posted is some eye opener, what an astounding list ... it's like a who's who v Microsoft and you ain't anybody unless you have a lawsuit against 'em :-)

FranMichaels
June 22nd, 2008, 10:35 PM
That link you posted is some eye opener, what an astounding list ... it's like a who's who v Microsoft and you ain't anybody unless you have a lawsuit against 'em :-)

Thank you, I'm very glad you like it, a friend mentioned the site to me four years ago or so.
I've been a fan of groklaw since.

Anyway, to keep it on track regarding OEMs, here is a nice "trick" that certainly paid off long ago.

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20040320130555648

So I stand by my initial comment, MS got into this position not through fair play or competition. As others pointed out more OEMs now are starting to offer Linux (and can do so without a big backlash thanks in part to anti-trust issues that would arise IMHO) so vote with your wallet if you can. :KS

sharkinfested
June 22nd, 2008, 11:28 PM
PC World is a business. Like all businesses their goal is to make money, and in the business world it is all about supply and demand. Whether you like it or not, Windows-based computers sell better than anything else Ė so thatís what they sell. It makes perfect sense.
If you were to open a business would you offer items that 95% of your customers use or would you waste inventory dollars on a product that less than 1% of your customers use? And donít forget that every customer in that 1% group can download the software you are offering FOR FREE!
This is a no-brainer for PC World.

Ioky
June 22nd, 2008, 11:50 PM
people actually think the "Windows" is a sign for how good the computer is. thing such as "WOW Windows Vista" Seriously, Msoft only made 2 OS that is kind of good. they are windows 98/ windows xp. the other just ****. (sorry for my language.)

FranMichaels
June 22nd, 2008, 11:53 PM
PC World is a business. Like all businesses their goal is to make money, and in the business world it is all about supply and demand. Whether you like it or not, Windows-based computers sell better than anything else – so that’s what they sell. It makes perfect sense.
If you were to open a business would you offer items that 95% of your customers use or would you waste inventory dollars on a product that less than 1% of your customers use? And don’t forget that every customer in that 1% group can download the software you are offering FOR FREE!
This is a no-brainer for PC World.

Why do HP, Lenovo, Asus, Dell, etc offer machines with OS's other than Windows? Are they not businesses, or is their goal to lose money?

They still do offer Windows, which is okay really. Why not offer more than one OS, and give your customer a small discount (dell) or hardware boost (as with the asus eee box) if they get the Linux version?

As for the percentages (source please!) making an argument about maintaining the status quo isn't compelling (Most everyone uses Windows now, so let's keep offering just Windows.)

The stone age didn't end because people ran out of stones. (I can't remember who said that quotation, some oil person... However, it's an excellent point.) One could also draw a parallel between the horse drawn carriage vs early automobiles. Just get a horse! No brainer!

Anyway, PC World needs to know there is a demand, and decide accordingly. It worked for Dell.
It looks like they've lost one customer here in this thread. So again I say, vote with your wallet if you want to buy a PC without Windows. That or don't accept the license agreement and jump through the hoops to get a refund on it.
Why pay for something you won't use. And the product can work without. Don't just shrug it off. If that appeals to you though, just giving money for nothing, please send me $50...

:popcorn:

sharkinfested
June 23rd, 2008, 12:23 AM
Why do HP, Lenovo, Asus, Dell, etc offer machines with OS's other than Windows? Are they not businesses, or is their goal to lose money?

They still do offer Windows, which is okay really. Why not offer more than one OS, and give your customer a small discount (dell) or hardware boost (as with the asus eee box) if they get the Linux version?

As for the percentages (source please!) making an argument about maintaining the status quo isn't compelling (Most everyone uses Windows now, so let's keep offering just Windows.)

The stone age didn't end because people ran out of stones. (I can't remember who said that quotation, some oil person... However, it's an excellent point.) One could also draw a parallel between the horse drawn carriage vs early automobiles. Just get a horse! No brainer!

Anyway, PC World needs to know there is a demand, and decide accordingly. It worked for Dell.
It looks like they've lost one customer here in this thread. So again I say, vote with your wallet if you want to buy a PC without Windows. That or don't accept the license agreement and jump through the hoops to get a refund on it.
Why pay for something you won't use. And the product can work without. Don't just shrug it off. If that appeals to you though, just giving money for nothing, please send me $50...

:popcorn:

These computer manufactures are testing the waters to see if will be profitable to meet the needs of this niche market Ė but they are making a profit too. Check out Dellís 1525 basic model Ė Windows version $499 Ė Ubuntu version $549
On top of the Widows being cheaper - it has a faster processor too.

I canít find the source but I recently read that it is estimated that Linux has a .65% share of the market. Actually this number is pretty high considering there are no marketing campaigns for Linux. And even a 1% would be millions of users.

I was just trying to point out that most business try to target the largest group with the most buying power. PC World obviously operates like this. It makes perfect sense to run a business this way, if people want Ubuntu preinstalled they can buy directly from Dell. They just have to pay MORE for the privilege.

FranMichaels
June 23rd, 2008, 12:41 AM
These computer manufactures are testing the waters to see if will be profitable to meet the needs of this niche market – but they are making a profit too. Check out Dell’s 1525 basic model – Windows version $499 – Ubuntu version $549
On top of the Widows being cheaper - it has a faster processor too.

I can’t find the source but I recently read that it is estimated that Linux has a .65% share of the market. Actually this number is pretty high considering there are no marketing campaigns for Linux. And even a 1% would be millions of users.

I was just trying to point out that most business try to target the largest group with the most buying power. PC World obviously operates like this. It makes perfect sense to run a business this way, if people want Ubuntu preinstalled they can buy directly from Dell. They just have to pay MORE for the privilege.

Got to start somewhere :)

Try and find the source. I'd almost believe it for Desktop share, but considering Linux in enterprise as well (and that companies like HP do cater to them). I'd say it's more than testing the waters at this point.

I'd like to know how they measure the desktop % too... And that you can count many of us Ubuntu users as people who bought Windows machines. I got the dell laptop I'm using now before they offered Ubuntu (Windows has been wiped, but I'm sure it counts as a Windows PC sale...)
Then my family got 3 with Ubuntu so far. So they definitely got sales there.

Not to mention MS advertised the number of Vista sales (this included copies sold to stores sitting on the shelves...) That's statistics for you I guess...

As for the dell? I've looked, is it this?

the first on the left $499
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/inspnnb_1525?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

vs

this $549

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/inspnnb_1525?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~oid=us~en~29~linux_3~~

The clock speed is lower on the Linux model, but :lolflag: the basic Windows one is a Celeron chip, and the hard drive is 40gb smaller, while the Ubuntu box has a dual core 1.6GHZ and 120g drive... That is much much better.
I would not touch that basic Win model (even if it had Linux on it :lolflag:)

Now if you go to the next model, it is much closer, yet about $50 dollars more. This is average for Dell, any exceptions and I'd write to them as a mistake, it's happened before. Pretty much every equivalent Ubuntu dell laptop vs Win laptop is 50 bucks cheaper. :)

bigplrbear
June 23rd, 2008, 12:50 AM
The thing is, for many years Linux wasn't really user friendly.
I've used Linux for a pretty long time (about 3 or 4 years). I remember the very first distro I tried- it was Knoppix 3.4.
User friendly are NOT the words I would've used to describe it. When I mean user friendly, I mean you put the disc in, and everything just works. If something doesn't work, then it's really easy to make it work or to fix it. Compared to just a couple of years ago, Linux is much MUCH more user friendly, That's why companies are only now starting to pick up Linux.

That, and the fact that Windows Vista costs an arm and a leg lol