Important Changes to Dell Ubuntu Support

[NBGeekGuy]

This is just a heads up that Dell has decided that it is too expensive to keep the Ubuntu Technicians in Ottawa on (as well as all the XPS techs and DOC techs from Ottawa). In mid April 100% of the DOC staff and 60% of the XPS staff in Ottawa were let go. The remaining staff, including all the Ubuntu staff were given notice that their jobs are over as of the end of June.

Effective Monday June 9, 2008 all Ubuntu support will be moving from Ottawa, ON, Canada to Pasay, Philippines. What does this mean for you/me? If you have a Dell that shipped with Ubuntu on it, and have anything wrong with it at all, and you want to speak to someone who you can understand, you must call before June 9th.

Now some of you may be wondering how I know this? I was formerly a Dell DOC and later an XPS agent in Ottawa. As such, I still have many friends both on the Ubuntu support queue, and in XPS. The kicker of the whole situation is that Dell is not letting the Ubuntu staff go as of next Monday, instead they are being required to take XPS(hardware and windows support) calls for the last three weeks that the center is open.

What's really strange is that while I worked there, Dell was proud of the percentage of their support staff that were located in North America, but as soon as the US dollar dropped and the economy slowed down, they pulled out (they built and were scheduled to open a second building in Ottawa in April, instead they are closing down and looking for a buyer in a market where there is currently a 25% vacancy rate for commercial buildings). In a way I'm happy that my friends won't have to listen to customers bitching about how they always get India when they call, that was the worst part about working there... when you get a North American on the phone, don't bitch at them about India, they know only too well and all you do is **** them off (and if you called regarding Ubuntu, and didn't get someone in Ottawa, you dialed the wrong number).

Anyhow, I offer a fond farewell salute to the hard working Ubuntu support staff at the Dell Ottawa Call Center, may your job hunts be short and fruitful (and thanks for all the help over the past year)!

[bmoney80]

Thats a damn shame to those losing their jobs .. especially since leftover positions are being outsourced. These companies will never learn how much more they jeopardize by doing this. Its like those instances of lead being found in paints used in toys ... we outsource the manufucturing to places like the phillipines (no offense to anyone from that region) and this stuff happens cause they just have different safety requirements/standards.

[Sammi]

Well this really devalues the Ubuntu/Dell computers in my mind.

Sorry to hear about your lost jobs.

[RedRat]

Well I hope that this does not mean also that Dell will discontinue making and selling their Linux machines. Ominous to say the least.

I would think that with the dollar going down, it would work the other way round. With a devalued dollar, salaries here in the U.S., I don't know how Canada is fairing, but it will be more costly to outsource to places like India and China, since their standards of living are climbing.

Keeping my fingers crossed that Dell stays in the Linux game.

[loell]

sorry for your job lost, but to say you want to speak to someone who you can understand ?

I don't know.. its just a bad innuendo.

[Samhain13]

Effective Monday June 9, 2008 all Ubuntu support will be moving from Ottawa, ON, Canada to Pasay, Philippines. What does this mean for you/me? If you have a Dell that shipped with Ubuntu on it, and have anything wrong with it at all, and you want to speak to someone who you can understand, you must call before June 9th.

Unless your language of choice is French, I'm pretty sure that the person in Pasay won't have trouble understanding you. :)

[jeffimperial]

... and you want to speak to someone who you can understand, you must call before June 9th.


Excuse me? I'm sorry to hear about those lost jobs, but you might want to be careful about what you say. It's this kind of uneducated generalizing statements that cause trouble.

English, the other official language, is widely used as a lingua franca throughout the country.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines#Languages

The unique edge comes from a high level of proficiency in English (the Philippines is the 3rd largest English-speaking country in the world).
- http://www.gov.ph/cat_economy/whyphil.asp

Being the third largest English speaking nation in the world and having a strong affinity for U.S. culture has positioned the Philippines as the destination of choice for customer contact and BPO services, due to its ample supply of English speaking, computer and Internet-savy college graduates...
- http://www.callcenter.mixph.com/?p=83

A simple Google-it may have helped you, but I *guess* you were a little too busy about your sentiments and simply swept off with what you had to say.

[ragadanga63]

Thats a damn shame to those losing their jobs .. especially since leftover positions are being outsourced. These companies will never learn how much more they jeopardize by doing this. Its like those instances of lead being found in paints used in toys ... we outsource the manufucturing to places like the phillipines (no offense to anyone from that region) and this stuff happens cause they just have different safety requirements/standards.

Voice of ignorance...

[jsgotangco]

Well this really devalues the Ubuntu/Dell computers in my mind.

Sorry to hear about your lost jobs.

Why should it devalue? Does Dell being made in China make it more inferior? Does customer service being done on the other side of the Pacific make it of lower value? Dell has been doing customer support on the other side of the planet for years already. I served the Ubuntu Community Council for over a year before I voluntarily stepped down. And was doing that while living in the Philippines - did Ubuntu lost its value? I don't see the point of this thread other than ranting about lost incomes.

[mivo]

Well, the value of the US dollar did drop massively in the past few years. I experience the effects first hand, since my income is in USD but I live in Europe. The loss of value is drastic. Dell isn't responsible for this. The US administration and the Iraq situation are responsible for the economical situation. (But I don't want to get started about this here because it's the wrong place.)

Plus, people always buy the cheapest products, so it makes sense for Dell to cut costs as much as possible, and support is always a good place to start, sadly. How many customers are willing to pay more for local support? Don't get me wrong, I feel for you and have been in the very same situation when the internet boom came to its violent end, so I can relate. But it's understandable why retailers outsource customer support. Then again, I have been buying hardware for twenty years, and I never, not once, called the manufacturer's hotline, and with forums like this here there are very viable alternatives to get help.

But everything aside: Best of luck to you and I hope that you'll soon get a job at a company that appreciates you and your abilities more.


Why should it devalue? Does Dell being made in China make it more inferior? Does customer service being done on the other side of the Pacific make it of lower value?

Ideologically, it might. Giving money to a company who does not reinvest it in the local economy but instead supports a foreign economy by creating jobs there but not in one's own country is not necessarily in the customer's best economical interest. From this perspective the decision to outsource customer support does devalue Dell products.

[gbrainin]

For me, the value of Dell Linux Support was all about the fact that they were obviously thinking and trying to solve my problem, not just reading from a script. That's somewhat unusual in the tech support world, in my experience, and therefore any change worries me, as it is unlikely that such a culture will survive a move.

[Samhain13]

Change can be worrisome. But are you sure the last person who solved your problem actually works in or near where you are?


Dell's customer contact center network today extends to more than 30 dedicated locations around the world that provide support anywhere in the world any time of day.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/pressoffice/en/2005/2005_08_10_mnl_000?c=us&l=en&s=corp

For all we know, that person works in India. :)

[RedRat]

It is all well and good to talk about countries being English speaking, but I would suggest that there is much more to language than just knowing how to speak it. Language is a reflection of culture and therefore has nuances in it that are difficult for the non-native speaker to manage. This is why interacting with tech support in Asia can be difficult, everyone in the party brings some baggage as to the meaning of words and context. Just because they may speak "English" in the Philippines or India, does not necessarily make them truly fluent in English. We see difference between English speakers here in the U.S. (try New Yorkers and I am not talking about accents here) differ from east to west coast, Canadian English is slightly different (not just the spelling) and heaven knows that context and nuance with people in the U.K can be a bit daunting.

Because of the cultural differences, it can be difficult to correctly or accurately communicate in a IT problem. This is particularly true when one person is having a computer crisis, who themselves may not be particularly computer literate (some barely know how to turn the machine on).

Let's face the facts: Dell is not doing this to make the customer happy, they are doing it to save bucks--pure and simple. It just plain costs too much to have IT support here in the U.S., at least they think so. However, I might point out to Dell, this is what got them into trouble with their sales before. Frankly, I stopped buying Dell computers several years ago when I had to resort to tech calls that were ending up somewhere in India. There tech support was very poor. Basically, I finally gave up on them and started building my own computers. Now you understand why I like Linux so much.

[bmoney80]

Voice of ignorance...

Excuse me? Ignorance is when you make a comment like the above without any knowledge of the source and what influences the source to make such statements. I'm not trying to sound cocky - but I am knowledgeable of different cultures considering ONE of my master's degrees is in social work (specifically international/community development). My comment has nothing to do with Filipino culture and their ability to do quality work ... my comment was mainly towards outsourcing. When companies outsource - while it benefits the company it typically has negative consequences on consumers and local communities.

I'm sorry if you took what I said personal, but maybe you should think more about your definition of ignorance.

Ben

[jeffimperial]

...Ideologically, it might. Giving money to a company who does not reinvest it in the local economy but instead supports a foreign economy by creating jobs there but not in one's own country is not necessarily in the customer's best economical interest. From this perspective the decision to outsource customer support does devalue Dell products.
Untrue.

First; "giving money to a company"? When one pays for support, one receives value for his or her money. Basic Accounting principle - value parted with always has an equivalent value received.

Second; transactions that are BPO'd (outsourced) are correctly considered imported goods, hence these are in fact paid for and leveraged by the importing country's governmental filters (more popularly known as tariffs). Say Dell_user_1, a North American, paid for support that was delivered by Call_Center_Philippines. A portion of the money that Dell_user_1 paid is to be used in turn pay for terrestrial outsourcing fees.

Third; a country's inability to create jobs for its citizens is that country's own shortcoming. And a company [in this case Dell] can and in fact should choose to purchase BPO'd services from suppliers that will help them stay competitive.

Last; Want to know what really is in the best interest of Dell's customer? It's that it stays competitive. Factor in expensive support; do you think your Dell PCs would become cheaper? If anything, it's prices would simply further increase.

[jeffimperial]

Excuse me? Ignorance is when you make a comment like the above without any knowledge of the source and what influences the source to make such statements. I'm not trying to sound cocky - but I am knowledgeable of different cultures considering ONE of my master's degrees is in social work (specifically international/community development). My comment has nothing to do with Filipino culture and their ability to do quality work ... my comment was mainly towards outsourcing. When companies outsource - while it benefits the company it typically has negative consequences on consumers and local communities.

I'm sorry if you took what I said personal, but maybe you should think more about your definition of ignorance.

Ben
Were you even taught to research your sources in that Master's Degree program that you claim to have?

Read up and go figure -->http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20254745/
Or from here -->http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293046,00.html

You just accused the Philippines of something that China did. Be careful next time.


Its like those instances of lead being found in paints used in toys ... we outsource the manufucturing to places like the phillipines (no offense to anyone from that region) and this stuff happens cause they just have different safety requirements/standards.

[mivo]

Untrue.

I appreciate your opinion of my opinion, however, it does not affect it. :) It is painfully obvious that outsourcing of support jobs to a third world country is not beneficial to one's own country. The loss of jobs lowers the tax income, increases the social/welfare expenses and triggers a chain of negative economical events (unemployed person can't consume as much, may not be able to repay credits, is dissatisfied and may become ill, etc.). The only two entities benefiting from outsourcing are the company (here: Dell) and the employee in a third-world country who works for an income that is way below minimum wage by western standards (essentially that means that they are exploited). Yes, the outsourcing certainly has a positive effect on Dell's prices (as I mentioned above), and most people, like apparently you, will only consider that. It is certainly a valid view point, but from a larger economical perspective it is a little short-sighted. The larger picture matters, but is often overlooked.

[bmoney80]

Were you even taught to research your sources in that Master's Degree program that you claim to have?

Read up and go figure -->http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20254745/
Or from here -->http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293046,00.html

You just accused the Philippines of something that China did. Be careful next time.

Wow. Sensitivity levels are high here. Listen, I never said that instances of lead being found in paint occured in the Philippines. Furthermore, I didn't think it was necessary to provide citations and references on a friggin Ubuntu support page. Oh and by the way, foxnews and msnbc/msn are certainly not appropriate references ... maybe something peer reviewed would be better suited?? - yeah its pretty lame when people criticize you for stuff like that huh?

And the MSW that I "claim" to have?? Do we need to continue the discussion of ignorance? Do you want me to provide proof? Or are you one of those individuals that just likes to argue with other people because it highlights your own level of intelligence that frequently goes unnoticed by those around you?

ATTENTION TO ALL INDIVIDUALS OFFENDED BY MY COMMENT:

I apologize if I offended anyone with my initial comment - I really am. I was merely identifying an example of what occurs when companies outsource. As previously stated in an other post - outsourcing usually suggests a problem within the company's originating country and it usually suffers even more in the long run.


Ben
----------------------
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." - Confucius

[bmoney80]

I appreciate your opinion of my opinion, however, it does not affect it. :) It is painfully obvious that outsourcing of support jobs to a third world country is not beneficial to one's own country. The loss of jobs lowers the tax income, increases the social/welfare expenses and triggers a chain of negative economical events (unemployed person can't consume as much, may not be able to repay credits, is dissatisfied and may become ill, etc.). The only two entities benefiting from outsourcing are the company (here: Dell) and the employee in a third-world country who works for an income that is way below minimum wage by western standards (essentially that means that they are exploited). Yes, the outsourcing certainly has a positive effect on Dell's prices (as I mentioned above), and most people, like apparently you, will only consider that. It is certainly a valid view point, but from a larger economical perspective it is a little short-sighted. The larger picture matters, but is often overlooked.

Well said, Mivo. Its nice to see someone else viewing this issue from a larger contextual/systemic perspective.


B

[fragos]

Excuse me but Dell is an American company and Canada isn't part of the United States. The Canadian support center was outsourced to a foriegn country.

[gbrainin]

Change can be worrisome. But are you sure the last person who solved your problem actually works in or near where you are?

Are you sure I said he works in or near where I am? Or, in fact, that I said anything about where he works (other than the fact that it is being shut down)?

Though I didn't mention it in this thread, this is my story, in a nutshell: I had a hardware problem--a defective floppy drive. In my ignorance, I first called the general Dell support number, and got a script kiddie who couldn't get past the fact that I had no "Start" menu. I later found and called the Linux support number, and got a tech support person who, as I mentioned, actually paid attention, used his brain, and solved my problem.

I didn't say where these two tech support people were, just that the one who was good was, apparently, in a center which is being shut down, and that I thought it unlikely that the quality would survive the move. Not the move to the Philippines, just a move.

Please don't read xenophobia into a statement about my general experience with "customer service."

[jsgotangco]

As previously stated in an other post - outsourcing usually suggests a problem within the company's originating country and it usually suffers even more in the long run.



If its any worth, the situation is actually not just endemic to the West; even here, industries get affected by service outsourcing and manufacturing. Print magazines are done in Hong Kong which is cheaper, textile from China, even grains and meat. But I'm getting off topic here but you get the idea.

If there is one thing good about the global outsourcing of IT, the countries that currently take on these tasks eventually become more aware of development and eventually become a knowledge-based labor pool which is pretty much recession proof and can adapt to any workplace on the planet given the proper orientation and experience.

[RedRat]

Excuse me but Dell is an American company and Canada isn't part of the United States. The Canadian support center was outsourced to a foriegn country.

I think most of us were assuming that those of us in North America were routed to one call center and it happened to be in Canada not Texas. But you do raise a very valid point, perhaps this only applies to the Canadian tech support. I do know that Dell-Canada is a different entity than Dell-USA.

Point well made.

[NBGeekGuy]

Excuse me but Dell is an American company and Canada isn't part of the United States. The Canadian support center was outsourced to a foriegn country.

Actually the Canadian operations were not an outsourced operation. We were a wholly Dell owned call center. We reported to Michael Dell as CEO and the Dell shareholders on the whole. Although for paychecks and benefits they were issued by Dell Canada, we did not have a reporting relationship with Dell Canada. In fact the director of global call center operations for all Dell owned and outsourced centers was working out of Ottawa until a few weeks ago.

In regards to the "Someone you understand" comment. Having worked almost 10 years in call centers, its not the language that is the problem (as some of you have said) rather the cultural differences. Back when I worked for one of the car rental companies, we also had a center in the Philippines. As I was working customer care, part of my job was fixing booking errors. I dealt with an unusually large number of booking errors (as compared to our US, Mexican and Canadian Call centers) resulting from the customer requesting "the largest thing you have". In North America, we understand that as a Large SUV or a minivan. Unfortunately what we ran into was a misunderstanding related to the size differences in vehicles over there. Basically, they simply did not have an understanding of a North American minivan or SUV. In a similar light, we ran into many North Americans who booked cars in Europe not understanding that cars over there tend to be smaller (the Mercedes A class was the worst, people see Mercedes and think big luxury car, when in reality it is about the size of a SMART car).

I truly give anyone doing support for a different culture credit, you have to have the patience of a saint simply because sometimes it is hard to convey your ideas to the person on the other end of the phone. That aside, just a year ago, Dell was promoting the North American experience when you call tech support. A lot of people bought Dell's because of it, and now they are not getting what they bought into.

On the breaking news front, apparently the switchover has been pushed up, and if you call on Tuesday, you will no longer be getting Ottawa for Ubuntu support ;( ...

[SunnyRabbiera]

I wish dell would open more offices here in the US to take this up instead of outsourcing...
I mean come on when is it going to stop, America seriously needs jobs.

[jsgotangco]

Actually the Canadian operations were not an outsourced operation. We were a wholly Dell owned call center. We reported to Michael Dell as CEO and the Dell shareholders on the whole.

I believe the one in Pasay is also a Dell owned call center, not an outsourced one. I've seen this before and its inside a huge mall and it only used exclusively by Dell. I've found an announcement here: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/pressoffice/en/2005/2005_10_19_mnl_000?c=us&l=en&s=corp and a timeline of events: http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/careers/media/philippines_timeline?c=ph&l=en&s=corp

So I think it was really planned from the start to move majority of operations elsewhere for Dell. I'm not sure if its related strategy, but a big part of Dell equipment is also made in Penang, Malaysia, then shipped back to North America, a sales office in Singapore, so a contact center move can be strategic in terms of general logistics, shipment and order tracking.



On the breaking news front, apparently the switchover has been pushed up, and if you call on Tuesday, you will no longer be getting Ottawa for Ubuntu support ;( ...

If there are any jobs that are going to get cut because of this move, I'm really sorry to hear about it. No matter what governments and statistics say about Unemployment rates, for the person losing the job, its always 100% and its the same rate for anywhere in the world.

[jrusso2]

You know whenever you talk to anyone about Dell they always complain about the outsourced support. And one of the major complaints is not being able to understand the Techs.

Now since Dell outsourced their Support they have fallen behind and are no longer looked at as being such a great computer as they were in the 90's.

So outsourcing more support I don't think will improve Dell's bottom line.

[Samhain13]

Let's face the facts: Dell is not doing this to make the customer happy, they are doing it to save bucks--pure and simple. It just plain costs too much to have IT support here in the U.S., at least they think so.

True. That's the nature of all businesses, maximum profit at minimum possible cost. Why go into business if things were the other way around?

It's also true that there is more to language than knowing how to speak it. And while language, as you say, is a reflection of culture, the truth also extends to the fact that CSR training here goes beyond learning the grammar. I have to concede though that one does not learn culture in a classroom; however, it is arguable whether sufficient understanding of culture can be gained in a classroom so that a CSR can adequately address the needs of a client.

gbrainin,

I didn't read xenophobia in your last statement, and I was not in any way implying that you suffer from it. But then, I guess I've over-read into your post in another way.

Still, IF we're talking about over-the-phone support, a caller can be redirected to any part of the world. Regardless of the part of the world the caller gets redirected to, there's still a chance s/he will get a parrot for a CSR.

IF we're NOT talking about over-the-phone support, I'll just wish you well. :)

-------------

Regarding the loss of jobs, effects on the local economy, etc. I guess if such a thing was to happen here, I'd be just as upset as our Canadian friends. But to say that this move degrades the quality of a product or a service-- even if no one is directly saying that my country or her people will be the cause of such degradation--, I just can't help but feel bad too.

Cheers.

[Technoviking]

Since this post is more non-tech based discussion, I have move it to the Community Cafe.

We welcome this discussion but it is getting a little heated, please keep it civil or the thread will be closed.

Mike

[wersdaluv]

Your bosses know what they are doing. I never liked Dell this much before. :)