why love/hate series was moved to wasteland?

[pmasiar]

I found that "Why I love/have X language" was moved to "recurring discussion" wasteland.

I think it is a mistake, because sane people ignore that space. But the whole point of those discussion was to have comments in context, to be learned from by others.

So say I learned some interesting perspective about Perl, and posted my comments where it belongs (to Why I love/hate Perl (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=577596)), and it is completely wasted there, even if interesting and insightful perspective on importance of Perl for development of free languages and free software community.

Especially slavik would be glad to see that insight, if he missed if before.

Would it be possible to move those discussion back? Maybe for a trial, and if they generate too much excitement and flames, we can always move them back. But other discussions in "recurring" are complete wasteland, while our "love/hate" series were somewhat better argued, at least IMHO :-)

Maybe we can have our own "recurring discussion" subforum, separate from that wasteland?

[slavik]

I understand your point and do support it, but then I have been checking recurring discussions ...

the idea for our own subforum does sound nice, though.

With all above said, I do fear that it would be easy for mods to strike this down (as might add more management into the mix).

[CptPicard]

+1

Our recurring discussions actually have PT-relevant information in them, and just drown in the noise elsewhere...

[LaRoza]

I found that "Why I love/have X language" was moved to "recurring discussion" wasteland.

I think it is a mistake, because sane people ignore that space. But the whole point of those discussion was to have comments in context, to be learned from by others.

So say I learned some interesting perspective about Perl, and posted my comments where it belongs (to Why I love/hate Perl (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=577596)), and it is completely wasted there, even if interesting and insightful perspective on importance of Perl for development of free languages and free software community.

Maybe we can have our own "recurring discussion" subforum, separate from that wasteland?
Well, that was done a long time ago. I can move them back, however I have moved almost all PT recurring discussions to the Recuring Discussions forum. The links are in the stickies, so they aren't lost.

As for sane people ignoring that space, I read them, and so does slavik...

I will move them back if you want, but only them.


I understand your point and do support it, but then I have been checking recurring discussions ...

the idea for our own subforum does sound nice, though.

With all above said, I do fear that it would be easy for mods to strike this down (as might add more management into the mix).

We are not sane it seems :-) It is a relatively minor point I think (considering it took a month or two to notice) and moving them back wouldn't be a hassle (except for the moving part, vBulletin can be a pain, I wish there it had an interactive terminal so it would be easier to move things.)

[LaRoza]

+1

Our recurring discussions actually have PT-relevant information in them, and just drown in the noise elsewhere...

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=686191

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4258889&postcount=2

[Lau_of_DK]

What was the point of those love/hate threads originally?

If it was to join all these discussion in one place it didn't work. I think every 10.th - 20.th thread spawned on this board contains somebody (you know who you are) aggressively agitating that Python is the most ultimate of ultimates, and everyone who does not code in Python is a blub programmer.

(ubuntu-forums definition of blub programmer: Someone who does not use Python exclusively).

If not for 1 exception, I would cast a vote that all these language vs language discussions be banned forever, simply because they're so unproductive, anything good ever comes out of them? Well, there is that one exception: Based on "Why Microsoft rocks my boat", I actually ended up, starting on both Python and Lisp with the help of several people from UF. But thats "1 in a million" threads..

And if I don't remember wrong, lnostdal was actually banned because of one such thread, which makes the whole concept failed. "Please tell us why you hate C++ and afterwards we will ban you for being to aggressive about it" ...did I miss something? :confused:

To sum up: These reoccurring language vs language discussions are 99% of the time a complete bore where noobs end up watching the gandalf of each branch go at it. :popcorn:

/Lau

[LaRoza]

What was the point of those love/hate threads originally?

pmasiar made the Python one to reduce any flak in nonrelated threads (a very good idea of his)



If it was to join all these discussion in one place it didn't work. I think every 10.th - 20.th thread spawned on this board contains somebody (you know who you are) aggressively agitating that Python is the most ultimate of ultimates, and everyone who does not code in Python is a blub programmer.

(ubuntu-forums definition of blub programmer: Someone who does not use Python exclusively).

No one does that here. If it helps, substitute Python with "dynamically typed open source language with a developed standard library and many other modules ready to use to accomplish common tasks". This is often called [Python|Perl|Ruby] (sometimes a Lisp is thrown in). A Blub programmer as defined in the BTA, is used on this forum. Naturally, a Blub programmer is one (in short) that doesn't see the need for higher level features and is content with their current language of choice. That is a bad attitude. Look at the bignums or something else thread, I didn't try to force my favourite languages (C and Python) onto the program, I found languages that could express it better (in this case, Haskell).



If not for 1 exception, I would cast a vote that all these language vs language discussions be banned forever, simply because they're so unproductive, anything good ever comes out of them? Well, there is that one exception: Based on "Why Microsoft rocks my boat", I actually ended up, starting on both Python and Lisp with the help of several people from UF. But thats "1 in a million" threads..

They don't violate the Code of Conduct, and are Recurring Discussions. If we banned all unproductive threads, we'd have only stickies and FAQ's and a few discussions, which does include this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=704619



And if I donut remember wrong, lnostdal was actually banned because of one such thread, which makes the whole concept failed. "Please tell us why you hate C++ and afterwards will ban you for being to aggressive about it" ...did I miss something? :confused:

Yes, you missed a lot ;)



To sum up: These reoccurring language vs language discussions are 99% of the time a complete bore where noobs end up watching the gandalf of each branch go at it. :popcorn:

Actually, they end up watching other newb recommend the only language they know that they learned by chance (school, random book, whatever) while everyone else says "read the sticky"

[slavik]

those threads were for arguing about why we like the languages we like.

in other words: if someone wants to find out what language to start with, it would be better to read those threads (with intelligent discussions/arguments) to see what makes people like the language or hate the language. Some people might be like "Hey, I want to be able to do '$_++ for(@array);'" while others might say "I want a strongly typed OO language." Or soemthing of the sort.

What I think would be the next step is to create Pro/Con lists using the info in those threads (relating to the specific language being discussed).

[CptPicard]

We also need a "why love/hate (stupid) people" thread so we can unban Lars and give him a place to vent so he can come back and give us more of his fancy Lisp snippets...

Lau, LOL @ "...gandalf of each branch.." ;)

[Lau_of_DK]

We also need a "why love/hate (stupid) people" thread so we can unban Lars and give him a place to vent so he can come back and give us more of his fancy Lisp snippets...


Yea I dont know for what reasons he was banned, maybe they WERE in fact legitimate. But the sum of Lisp skills in the forum went below the critical level when he got the boot. Couldn't we hold a tribal council and vote him back in on the island?


/Lau

[LaRoza]

We also need a "why love/hate (stupid) people" thread so we can unban Lars and give him a place to vent so he can come back and give us more of his fancy Lisp snippets...


That is called IRC, and his Lisp paste bin.

The rules apply to everyone, including smart people. I mean, if he stayed with Lisp instead of doing fancy things with English...

(but that isn't really a fitting topic for the forum. There is a procedure for unbanning, and it is for the banned to do)

[LaRoza]

Yea I dont know for what reasons he was banned, maybe they WERE in fact legitimate. But the sum of Lisp skills in the forum went below the critical level when he got the boot. Couldn't we hold a tribal council and vote him back in on the island?


Anyone banned can contest the decision in front of the FC and CC. (Forum Council and Community Council)

[slavik]

That is called IRC, and his Lisp paste bin.

The rules apply to everyone, including smart people. I mean, if he stayed with Lisp instead of doing fancy things with English...

(but that isn't really a fitting topic for the forum. There is a procedure for unbanning, and it is for the banned to do)
either way, LaRoza, any chance the PT forum could get a 'discussion' subforum for reccuring discussions and stuff?

[LaRoza]

either way, LaRoza, any chance the PT forum could get a 'discussion' subforum for reccuring discussions and stuff?

No.

[slavik]

No.
then this is the end of this discussion. :(

[LaRoza]

then this is the end of this discussion. :(

It would make sense to have such a forum if this were a programming centric forum, but PT is just a small addition to UbuntuForums.org. I mean, I failed to get a Web Development forum added despite evidence it was needed and lots of support.

[LaRoza]

then this is the end of this discussion. :(

It ended a while ago when I moved the thread back. But, I closed them just to be difficult.

[Lau_of_DK]

It ended a while ago when I moved the thread back. But, I closed them just to be difficult.

LaRoza..... are you trying

[Lau_of_DK]

LaRoza..... are you trying

...to boost your number of posts?



/Lau

[LaRoza]

...to boost your number of posts?


No, I am replying to things I see, which may lead to "double posts" but that isn't intentional. I could if I wanted to take the time go merge all of my posts, but that isn't very logical.

[Lau_of_DK]

No, I am replying to things I see, which may lead to "double posts" but that isn't intentional. I could if I wanted to take the time go merge all of my posts, but that isn't very logical.

Okay, cool, I believe you.

On a different note, would you mind if I had this signature in the future?

"No, I am replying to things I see, which may lead to "double posts" but that isn't intentional." -- LaRoza w. 10.000+ posts

/Lau

[LaRoza]

Okay, cool, I believe you.

On a different note, would you mind if I had this signature in the future?

"No, I am replying to things I see, which may lead to "double posts" but that isn't intentional." -- LaRoza w. 10.000+ posts

/Lau

It is my intention to have my random forum comments in people's sigs, so I don't mind.

[pmasiar]

I think every 10.th - 20.th thread spawned on this board contains somebody (you know who you are) aggressively agitating that Python is the most ultimate of ultimates, and everyone who does not code in Python is a blub programmer.

(ubuntu-forums definition of blub programmer: Someone who does not use Python exclusively).

You are trying hard for blub programmer badge? You failed, you have your definition wrong :-)

Blub programmer is defined in Beating The Averages (www.paulgraham.com/avg.html) article by Paul Graham, which exactly explains why such comparison by blub programmers cannot achieve any solution. You may want to read it before pronouncing universal truths.

BTW because language features are orthogonal, we cannot compare language in single dimension, but in a multi-dimensional space - and this alone will make sure that blub programmers cannot grok it :-)

[pmasiar]

LaRoza, thanks for moving threads back. My feeling is, if we can have ongoing IDE discussion around, why not the meaningful discussion about languages? It might even prevent the less-meaningful discussion from even being created. maybe :-)

Yup, now it pays that one of our own were nice enough to get the coveted forum mod badge. Thank you for being around, LaRoza :-) ... and for being patient enough not to get to flamewars. Keep up the good job!

[LaRoza]

LaRoza, thanks for moving threads back. My feeling is, if we can have ongoing IDE discussion around, why not the meaningful discussion about languages? It might even prevent the less-meaningful discussion from even being created. maybe :-)

Yup, now it pays that one of our own were nice enough to get the coveted forum mod badge. Thank you for being around, LaRoza :-) ... and for being patient enough not to get to flamewars. Keep up the good job!

I actually have been meaning to move that. As you can tell, moving threads is something I don't like doing. If I don't have to move it, I don't. It is TDS.

Thanks, I hope to be around (the alternative being dead and/or without the internet, don't know which is worse.)

I get into flamewars, but delete my post afterword sometimes (really, it happens)

[Lau_of_DK]

(ubuntu-forums definition of blub programmer: Someone who does not use Python exclusively).

You are trying hard for blub programmer badge? You failed, you have your definition wrong :-)



Hey PM -

I know the real definition of a blub - for whom do you think I made that custom definition? :)

/Lau

[LaRoza]

I know the real definition of a blub - for whom do you think I made that custom definition? :)

But he doesn't do that. He freely admits when another language is better for the task, it just so happens that Python (and similiar languages) are useful for many tasks.

[pmasiar]

I know the real definition of a blub

from your comments it is rather not obvious :-)

Do you suggest I should stay moot if random noobs age giving random noobs wrong advice, just to let all sides "fair share of attention"? Not gonna happen, don't hold your breath.

In USA they have this problem, where some politicians consider evolution "just a theory, not a fact", and lobby for teaching in school include also alternative opinions. Are you one of those "intelligent designers" :-) ? In Europe you have less of those crazy people I hope. In USA when they learn that they can improve gas mileage by decreasing friction, Congress will ban friction, no doubts about it. In California they almost managed to ban major component of acid rains: Dihydroxymonoxide (H2O).

[LaRoza]

In USA they have this problem, where some politicians consider evolution "just a theory, not a fact", and lobby for teaching in school include also alternative opinions. Are you one of those "intelligent designers" :-) ? In Europe you have less of those crazy people I hope. In USA when they learn that they can improve gas mileage by decreasing friction, Congress will ban friction, no doubts about it. In California they almost managed to ban major component of acid rains: Dihydroxymonoxide (H2O).

I would consider the problem another way. In my experience, schools have evolution as the sole fact you need to "get", even if you don't understand it. All the science is secondary to it. That was my experience in an American high school, accept evolution, everything else is secondary to it.

It should be the other way around if at all. The reason why the "intel design" people are doing what they are doing is because they are reacting to the "evolutionists" who treat evolution as a religion, not a science.

[slavik]

I would consider the problem another way. In my experience, schools have evolution as the sole fact you need to "get", even if you don't understand it. All the science is secondary to it. That was my experience in an American high school, accept evolution, everything else is secondary to it.

It should be the other way around if at all. The reason why the "intel design" people are doing what they are doing is because they are reacting to the "evolutionists" who treat evolution as a religion, not a science.
OT: Evolution is in fact a theory and not a fact (proven theories are called theorems). The one thing that sets evolution apart from intelligent design is that evolution is a scientific theory, meaning it was accepted as the most likely educated guess to be true.

Before the theory of burning, there was the phlogiston theory and before the theory we have for heat today, there was an invisible fluid called Caloric (hence we use calories to measure heat).

Back to Topic: If we want to discuss blub programmers, maybe we should start a new thread (or split off this one).

[Lau_of_DK]

from your comments it is rather not obvious :-)

Do you suggest I should stay moot if random noobs age giving random noobs wrong advice, just to let all sides "fair share of attention"? Not gonna happen, don't hold your breath.


Alright - I'm not juding, so you can decide for yourself if the quote applies.



In USA they have this problem, where some politicians consider evolution "just a theory, not a fact", and lobby for teaching in school include also alternative opinions. Are you one of those "intelligent designers" :-) ? In Europe you have less of those crazy people I hope. In USA when they learn that they can improve gas mileage by decreasing friction, Congress will ban friction, no doubts about it. In California they almost managed to ban major component of acid rains: Dihydroxymonoxide (H2O).


Firstly: I haven't read the theory of intelligent design, so I cant really say if I concur with it. But if you know the theory I can tell you what I believe and you can tell me where it fits: Creation is a sovereign act of God - The Bible is true from first page to the last - Jesus is the only name by which men can be saved from their sins - After this life, Heaven of Hell awaits.
(thats basically it)

Secondly: The theory of evolution is not a fact, its a theory. And I think thats also part of the reason they called it the "Theory of Evolution" and not "Facts of Evolution". Im not huge scholar of this theory, but what Ive picked up is this: Same-breed evolution has happend many times, and happends still today. Seen in species that develop thicker fur in response to colder climate and such. Cross-breed evolution has not ever been seen, as in a cat mutating to a fish, because it lived near water. Darwin supposedly said before his death that if no instance of cross-breed evolution could be found before 100 years that he theory should be abandoned.

Also worth noting, some atheist somewhere, studied Evolution on every level and in many terms that I as a non-professional couldn't understand. Because he's an atheist he did not end the book by praising God for His wonderful design, instead he concluded that "The theory of evolution provides no valid explanation for our existance, we much look for other explanations". The book is called "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" and should be a somewhat commonly accepted work among biologists. Its hear-say from my part, because I'm no scholar. At least not in this field.

/Lau

[slavik]

Alright - I'm not juding, so you can decide for yourself if the quote applies.




Firstly: I haven't read the theory of intelligent design, so I cant really say if I concur with it. But if you know the theory I can tell you what I believe and you can tell me where it fits: Creation is a sovereign act of God - The Bible is true from first page to the last - Jesus is the only name by which men can be saved from their sins - After this life, Heaven of Hell awaits.
(thats basically it)

Secondly: The theory of evolution is not a fact, its a theory. And I think thats also part of the reason they called it the "Theory of Evolution" and not "Facts of Evolution". Im not huge scholar of this theory, but what Ive picked up is this: Same-breed evolution has happend many times, and happends still today. Seen in species that develop thicker fur in response to colder climate and such. Cross-breed evolution has not ever been seen, as in a cat mutating to a fish, because it lived near water. Darwin supposedly said before his death that if no instance of cross-breed evolution could be found before 100 years that he theory should be abandoned.

Also worth noting, some atheist somewhere, studied Evolution on every level and in many terms that I as a non-professional couldn't understand. Because he's an atheist he did not end the book by praising God for His wonderful design, instead he concluded that "The theory of evolution provides no valid explanation for our existance, we much look for other explanations". The book is called "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" and should be a somewhat commonly accepted work among biologists. Its hear-say from my part, because I'm no scholar. At least not in this field.

/Lau
This is not a religious forum and you need to stop trolling anyway.

[Lau_of_DK]

This is not a religious forum and you need to stop trolling anyway.

Trolling?


/Lau

[Bichromat]

This is completely off-topic, but:
- Darwin did not come up with evolution, he created the theory of "natural selection". The theory of evolution predates Darwin. And, contrarily to the theory of "intelligent design", it can be disproved and therefore is a VALID scientific theory. Intelligent design cannot be disproved and as such has nothing to do with science, and cannot be called a theory (as in "scientific theory"). Once you start including a god in your theories, you definitely step away from science.

- Don't ask science to answer questions such as "Why are we here?". Science is not based on beliefs. Science tries to understand *how* Nature works, not *why* it works this way. It is *fundamental*.

[dempl_dempl]

Lau_of_DK :


Actually , despite what some people might think, Evolution perfectly fits in 2nd law of thermodynamics , and that law has been proven too many times :P .

I have this in my physics book, but I've managed to find this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics#Applications_to_livin g_systems

(2) If evolution law is proven to be incorrect , that still doesn't make the Bible true.

(3) Bichromat is right , this is programming forum . I believe you can always ask forum administrators to create "religoius debates" section in community talk :p .


Cheers!

[CptPicard]

An interesting feature of evolution not fitting the second law of thermodynamics and therefore proving ID would be that, uh, God would have created a contradiction in natural laws, because then we would have something in existence that doesn't fit into the picture of 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Ergo, 2nd law of thermodynamics couldn't be a natural law to begin with, because even without introducing God into the picture, we could easily see it can't be a law.

[pmasiar]

Sorry for being so of-topic :-)

I promise this is last one: for people, who think Theory of gravity is "just a theory", there is always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling :-)

BTW Evolution is not concerned about **creation** of life, but how existing life changes. Creation of life is still being researched - and there are many interesting questions to ask what happened 4 Bil years ago, when there was no oxygen in the atmosphere... unless you believe MSFT that it created the whole universe 6 thousands years ago :-)

Every scientific theory designs experiments which can disprove it. Without it, it cannot be called science, and we can save the troubles and become http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastafarians :-)

I guess this whole thread deserves to be moved to wasteland - it clearly outlived it's usefulness

[pmasiar]

This is clearly going off-topic, and before you give me any points for flames, let me explain myself.

1) I put example of ID as something what people not expert in problem matter promote in their school district - and because fool has exactly one vote as smart person has, and there are more fools than smart ppl, fools could win, and only solution is to decide on merit of people making the decision.

Exactly as banning friction and H2O - people without a clue decide randomly. IMHO it is like to let noobs vote what the "best" language. That was my whole point of comparing those issues. Democracy cannot work between smart and fools, only meritocracy.

2) Re evolution, science, etc: To call itself "science", body of knowledge has to follow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method. I have no problem with people having faith in something which cannot be disproven, but that has nothing in common with science.

Scientics cannot prove anything: Only what can be done is to say, that despite many years, we cannot disprove it. Like Newton's Theory of motion: Einstein's theory does not disprove it, it just shows that Einsteins's rules are Newton's when speed is substantially less than c. But no science will ever tell you it cannot be disproven: just the opposite, it tries hard to find the crack. Only after many people failed to find the crack, theory is accepted. This is what many people have hard time to understand, when talking about scientific "theories".

3) From religious beliefs, my personal preference is with Buddhism - it seems to be more fair, no permanent damnation for living one finite life in error. Instead, you just repeat the class, maybe learning the lesson next time. Basic fairness. But I am no dogmatic about that: except for Tibetan Buddhists, nobody seems to know what is "behind". BTW did you know that Dalai Lama is not the only one who keep reincarnating for generations? They have 500+ "lineages" of people like that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku

Quite of lot of edits in text above. :-) I should know better and don't waste time on that, but oh well... :-/

[dempl_dempl]

An interesting feature of evolution not fitting the second law of thermodynamics...

Actually , that's a common disbelief .

Check out the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Law_of_Thermodynamics#Applications_to_livin g_systems)link.

[CptPicard]

Instead, you just repeat the class, maybe learning the lesson next time. ... did you know that Dalai Lama is not the only one who keep reincarnating for generations? They have 500+ "lineages" of people like that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku

So essentially the Tulku are the slowest students in the class and keep repeating it over and over again, and Dalai Lama is such a dufus? :confused:

It's like the Pope being the worst kind of sinner alive.. (well, renaissance popes pretty much were, and if you asked the Pope, he might actually agree with the characterization out of dogmatic appropriateness...)

[pmasiar]

So essentially the Tulku are the slowest students in the class and keep repeating it over and over again, and Dalai Lama is such a dufus? :confused:


Just the opposite (as my link above explains): out of compassion with his students, after attaining enlightenment, instead of reaching nirvana (get out of reincarnation cycle), tulku decides to reincarnate by his (or her) own decision (so knows where and when) and continues teaching. Current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama is in 14th reincarnation. Rest of us keep reincarnating without the understanding and without the learning.

[Lau_of_DK]

From religious beliefs, my personal preference is with Buddhism - it seems to be more fair, no permanent damnation for living one finite life in error.

And thankfully there's freedom of religion so that you can go that way. But even in my own faith, I'm careful not to walk as the flesh desires. To choose religion based on the fact that its ignorant of the judgement that is to come, is a dangerous path. But I'm sure you've heard these things many times before. Everything has consequences, the choices you make here are what you'll be judged by in the next life.

Speaking of fairness, its actually intresting to get different views on it. I think God is 100% fair. Thats why there will be no pedofiles, terrorists, murderes, adulterers, liars etc. in Heaven. They will all face judgement for the life they have chosen to live. Thats extremely fair. They can choose God, or choose to go their own way. A lot of people try to argue though that this is not fair and saying how can God judge if He is Love? And of course, if you love children you hate abortion right? And if you love rightousness you hate sin. And so God seperates them fairly, because we can all choose which path we want to walk on. (with reference to my signature).

This is not damnation for a "finite life in err" - everyone make mistakes that we regret. But lying is a choice, so is back-biting, unforgiveness, hatred... I think its possible to lie as a lifestyle so that you dont even think about it, but you still made that choice, its just been a while since you made it.

Every one of us should choose our path carefully. It has bigger consequences than which language we chose to code in.

/Lau

[Wybiral]

Speaking of fairness, its actually intresting to get different views on it. I think God is 100% fair. Thats why there will be no pedofiles, terrorists, murderes, adulterers, liars etc. in Heaven. They will all face judgement for the life they have chosen to live. Thats extremely fair.

Did you gain nothing from our talks of determinism? You still haven't an argument for why I don't like the color red, and never will. I'm a blue fan, I shouldn't be eternally punished because some creator put me in the position and body that I'm in.

I know, I know... I have to have faith... But having faith is like favoring the color red... I just don't, and that's not a fact I can change willfully. Yet, according to you, I'm doomed to hell for being born into this mind/body/time. Sad fact for all those people born outside of the scope of christian history :(

[Lau_of_DK]

Wyb,


The only thing prevent you from getting on your knees and finding God, is because you find it more comfortable to be at the computer.

But if you like I'll pray earnestly that God will change that.

/Lau

[Wybiral]

The only thing prevent you from getting on your knees and finding God, is because you find it more comfortable to be at the computer.

Right, and I do so because my logical mind refuses to accept some story as fact. This is exactly what I mean, I can't control that... It's in my nature not to believe and have faith.

"Get on your knees... BECAUSE" doesn't work for me. It's like buying a red coffee cup with the hopes that someday... Maybe... I'll like the color red. That's outright nonsensical. It would be a lie for me to pretend to like the color red, hoping that someday it will happen. And lying is a sin, right?

DOOOMMED!!!!

[dempl_dempl]

He he...
I smell a closure to this thread.. someone must have reported it ... I wonder who ...

Why are you looking at me?

Because it was me!

[pmasiar]

Everything has consequences, the choices you make here are what you'll be judged by in the next life.

why god created homosexuals, in his infinite fairness, according to your theory? Why slaves? Why children have cancer?

> if you love children you hate abortion right?

I actually worked with abandoned children (orphans of living parents). You sometimes should to, to learn compassion. I believe that every child should have right to be born to world where it will be loved by parents. Your approach cannot guarantee it, and spreads suffering. What should 16 years old pregnant by rape girl to do? Suffer whole life, without a chance on education? Is it fair?

> And if you love rightousness you hate sin.

Actually, no. I am not god, I am not here to judge. I am here to help. I am not against gay marriage (and after seeing those children, I am for allowing married gay couples adoption)

> Every one of us should choose our path carefully. It has bigger consequences than which language we chose to code in.

yes, but if I slip, can I retake the class, pretty please?

In Buddhist understanding, some of the poorest people might be considered cleaning more karma during single life than the people living more comfortably.

There is not such a thing as a sin. Bad action does have consequences, yes, but none are permanent. I consider that more fair, more forgiving. Otherwise, why not ask god to create me with stronger will? It is known that some people can metabolize alcohol better than others. How it is fair?

In buddhism, there is no such a thing as god. "understanding" means you understand that we all are one, buddha is inside you, and always was. There is noone to pray to, just understand what is inside you.

about time to put this thread out of misery and move it to backyard

[LaRoza]

OT: Evolution is in fact a theory and not a fact (proven theories are called theorems). The one thing that sets evolution apart from intelligent design is that evolution is a scientific theory, meaning it was accepted as the most likely educated guess to be true.

But it isn't presented that way in schools (in my experience) and is a reason to be a concern.



3) From religious beliefs, my personal preference is with Buddhism - it seems to be more fair, no permanent damnation for living one finite life in error. Instead, you just repeat the class, maybe learning the lesson next time. Basic fairness. But I am no dogmatic about that: except for Tibetan Buddhists, nobody seems to know what is "behind". BTW did you know that Dalai Lama is not the only one who keep reincarnating for generations? They have 500+ "lineages" of people like that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku


I have a collection of Steven Seagal movies...

Since this thread was solved and is getting really out of touch with the purpose and scope of the PT, I am closing it. It would likely make for interesting conversation, but this thread would attract a lot of weird discussions if moved to the OPP (especially considering the actual topic of the thread).

[LaRoza]

why god created homosexuals, in his infinite fairness, according to your theory? Why slaves? Why children have cancer?

Catechism of the Cathlolic Church (what I cut out is not important to the point, saving typing)


They do not chosose their homosexual condition...They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives...

Homosexual persons are called to chastity..


There are slaves because of free will (the taking of slaves, not being them). Cancer is a result of the fallen state of mankind, which was a result of free will.