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shewbox
October 20th, 2005, 08:05 PM
Please don't misundersand me, I like Linux and I enjoy tinkering with it. I just get rather frustrated (as I do in Windows too) and it helps to rant sometimes ;)

Also, I'm still unknowledgeable about many things Linux, and most of these probably have answers, if only I knew about them.

1. Itís just so slow. In every distro Iíve tried, applications load faster and run smoother in Windows than they do in Linux. And file browsers like Nautilus? Can we say resource hog?

2. Sound Support. This one is more a personal problem, but my M Audio 2496 just doesnít want to cooperate with Linux. Why can I get sound from OSS and not Alsa? And how exactly does OSS or Alsa work, why is Alsa supposedly better, and how the hell do I configure any of it?

3. Configuration Files. Speaking of configuration, so many cogs and wheels work according to their specific configuration files. If you know where these files are and what settings to change, youíre in good shape. Donít know where/how to edit xorg.conf to get X settings just right? Tough luck buddy.

4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And letís not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1.

5. Hardware Support. While this has greatly improved over the years, Iím really aiming this one at ATI. My ATI X800 XL runs great in Windows, but boy oh boy are those Linux drivers dreadful.

6. Software Installation. I must admit, apt-get in Ubuntu is fabulous, but it doesnít always work right, and for non apt distros,compiling from source is confusing and frustrating for non experienced users. Rpms arenít too bad, but when you get caught in dependency hell, youíll long for a simple Windows install.

7. Video/Media Playback. This has more to do with patents, MS only formats, and licensing than a Linux specific problem, but the fact that free distros canít package support for DVDs and many win32 codecs is a major drawback.

8. Games. Again, not a problem with Linux architecture as much as game vendors not porting games to the platform. Yet, the solutions to play Windows games in Linux will either cost you extra money, be extremely frustrating to set up, or a combination of both.

9. Dual Boot Setup. Iíve installed many linux distros in the past 5 years and this is not really a major setback for me anymore, but for new users who donít wish to erradicate Windows from their computers, this is a major point of confusion and fear to get it set up correctly. Although I must give kudos to Mandrake (or Mandriva as it is now called). Their disk partitioning is the easiest Iíve used.

10. I still have to dual boot. Iím mentioned 9 things I dislike about Linux above. I donít really wish to complain about Linux until Iím blue in the face. The fact is, I like Linux, and I get frustrated that because of the above things (and a few others such as specific windows only software), I still have to dual boot. I would like to switch completely over to Linux. Itís just not completely what I need, and thatís one of the most frustrating things of all.

xequence
October 20th, 2005, 08:37 PM
I aggree with 3, 6 and 8. I wish there were more games (But the best game ever, UT, has a linux version! Yay!) and I hate compiling from source or doing any ./configure thingy.

Now with what I disagree with...

1. Windows boots up much faster, and shuts down much faster, but when I am in it ubuntu 5.10, released a week ago, runs faster then windows XP, released four years ago.

2. Nothing to say here, it worked for me.

4. Gnome programs look dumb in KDE, KDE programs look dumb in gnome. There is a way to fix it. In KDE you can make your GTK apps use a GTK theme if you want.

5. Much better hardware support then windows I must say. (For me). Have you done a fresh install of windows before? Really bad driver troubles... And I dont mean using the restore CD that came with your computer, it already has the drivers. On XP, my video driver made my computer not boot up 70% of the time! Sometimes it started up on the first try, other times it took 20+. It just shows the black windows loading screen then restarts.

7. I had a little problem with this but it was quickly solved by getting the codecs from debians repos. It also happens in windows - I downloaded a movie and had to look for days to get the right codecs!

9. I dont see the problem... Resize windows, make linux. Choose what OS you want on startup.

Jenda
October 20th, 2005, 08:43 PM
1. It’s just so slow. In every distro I’ve tried, applications load faster and run smoother in Windows than they do in Linux. And file browsers like Nautilus? Can we say resource hog?
I don't agree. Linux apps start slow because of a different memory management system. They start up a lot faster the second time if you have enough memory.


3. Configuration Files. Speaking of configuration, so many cogs and wheels work according to their specific configuration files. If you know where these files are and what settings to change, you’re in good shape. Don’t know where/how to edit xorg.conf to get X settings just right? Tough luck buddy.
Oh come on. Anyone on the forum will tell you if you are in need and you usually don't have to touch those things.


4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And let’s not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1.
Indeed. We would all prefer no choice at all in appearance and no variation. No Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Fluxbox, just "The UI".


5. Hardware Support. While this has greatly improved over the years, I’m really aiming this one at ATI. My ATI X800 XL runs great in Windows, but boy oh boy are those Linux drivers dreadful.
Whose fault is this? Cui bene? And no, as xequence posts, a fresh Windows install is hell. Nothing works by default. No GeForce, no sound, no internet. Ubuntu? Everything but the NVIDIA driver - 10 mins of work, not HOURS...


6. Software Installation. I must admit, apt-get in Ubuntu is fabulous, but it doesn’t always work right, and for non apt distros,compiling from source is confusing and frustrating for non experienced users. Rpms aren’t too bad, but when you get caught in dependency hell, you’ll long for a simple Windows install.
Just think how easy it is for a virus to feel at home...

7. Video/Media Playback. This has more to do with patents, MS only formats, and licensing than a Linux specific problem, but the fact that free distros can’t package support for DVDs and many win32 codecs is a major drawback.
Whose fault is this? Cui bene? And it's not that hard to bypass. You've done it once, you'll do it anytime.


9. Dual Boot Setup. I’ve installed many linux distros in the past 5 years and this is not really a major setback for me anymore, but for new users who don’t wish to erradicate Windows from their computers, this is a major point of confusion and fear to get it set up correctly. Although I must give kudos to Mandrake (or Mandriva as it is now called). Their disk partitioning is the easiest I’ve used. Yes, that was the only thing I appreciated on mdk9.2. I love Ubuntu's partitioner, though - especially since it uses ntfsresize.


10. I still have to dual boot. I’m mentioned 9 things I dislike about Linux above. I don’t really wish to complain about Linux until I’m blue in the face. The fact is, I like Linux, and I get frustrated that because of the above things (and a few others such as specific windows only software), I still have to dual boot. I would like to switch completely over to Linux. It’s just not completely what I need, and that’s one of the most frustrating things of all.
So think: what are the things you boot Windows for? Tell us - we might be able to eradicate them one by one. Until only games remain...

Malphas
October 20th, 2005, 08:48 PM
4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And let’s not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1.
Indeed. We would all prefer no choice at all in appearance and no variation. No Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Fluxbox, just "The UI".
Actually I think this is was a fair point. While choice and variety is a good thing, the lack of better interpolarity is annoying and is no doubt off-putting to would-be application developers. Definitely something that needs to be resolved before we're going to see a better choice of software available for GNU/Linux.

aysiu
October 20th, 2005, 08:56 PM
1. It’s just so slow. In every distro I’ve tried, applications load faster and run smoother in Windows than they do in Linux. And file browsers like Nautilus? Can we say resource hog? Have you tried a lighter desktop environment? XFCE is fully featured but extremely quick.



3. Configuration Files. Speaking of configuration, so many cogs and wheels work according to their specific configuration files. If you know where these files are and what settings to change, you’re in good shape. Don’t know where/how to edit xorg.conf to get X settings just right? Tough luck buddy. They may seem a bit daunting at first, but I find there are really only two that I edit more than once /etc/apt/sources.list and /boot/grub/menu.lst. I edited the /etc/X11/xorg.conf on initial install. Ask questions, and you won't have "tough luck." For example, this single post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=129379&postcount=21) has a number of resources on how to fix X and screen resolution. Ask questions. By the way, I'll take editing config files over editing the registry any day. I had to edit the registry to get rid of various spyware on my XP computer, and it was a pain in the behind... a major pain.



4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And let’s not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1. It doesn't really bother me, but I think you have a valid point. There is some lib or something that you can install that I think tries to make things a bit more consistent, though. Anyone know what that's called?



5. Hardware Support. While this has greatly improved over the years, I’m really aiming this one at ATI. My ATI X800 XL runs great in Windows, but boy oh boy are those Linux drivers dreadful. Both times I've installed Windows, I've had a hell of a time trying to get proper drivers. It all depends on what hardware you have. I don't think you can make generalizations like this based on one piece of hardware.



6. Software Installation. I must admit, apt-get in Ubuntu is fabulous, but it doesn’t always work right, and for non apt distros,compiling from source is confusing and frustrating for non experienced users. Rpms aren’t too bad, but when you get caught in dependency hell, you’ll long for a simple Windows install. Well, that's why the "middle group," as Poofyhairyguy calls them, sometimes has trouble with Linux. If you're a basic user, you probably don't need anything outside the repositories, as their selection is pretty extensive. If you're an expert user, you may actually prefer to compile things from source. The middle people want programs that aren't in the repositories, but they don't want to bother with all the steps to install them. Sorry.



7. Video/Media Playback. This has more to do with patents, MS only formats, and licensing than a Linux specific problem, but the fact that free distros can’t package support for DVDs and many win32 codecs is a major drawback. If you mean "free" as in cost (money), you may want to look into Mepis and Blag--they both are cost-free and include a number of proprietary codecs.



9. Dual Boot Setup. I’ve installed many linux distros in the past 5 years and this is not really a major setback for me anymore, but for new users who don’t wish to erradicate Windows from their computers, this is a major point of confusion and fear to get it set up correctly. That's why there are wonderful dual-boot tutorials like this one (http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/).


Although I must give kudos to Mandrake (or Mandriva as it is now called). Their disk partitioning is the easiest I’ve used. DiskDrake is a wonderful thing. I used it to partition my hard drive, even though Mandriva never did it for me as distro.



10. I still have to dual boot. I’m mentioned 9 things I dislike about Linux above. I don’t really wish to complain about Linux until I’m blue in the face. The fact is, I like Linux, and I get frustrated that because of the above things (and a few others such as specific windows only software), I still have to dual boot. I would like to switch completely over to Linux. It’s just not completely what I need, and that’s one of the most frustrating things of all. But not every user has to dual boot. It all depends on your needs. Linux isn't for everyone, and it doesn't attempt to be for everyone. Nevertheless, it could probably suit the needs of most users (email, internet, word processing, photo management). See the first link in my sig.

Stormy Eyes
October 20th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Indeed. We would all prefer no choice at all in appearance and no variation. No Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Fluxbox, just "The UI".

We? Please don't speak for others when expressing an opinion. I, for one, don't object to variation. If I wanted a monolithic UI I'd still be using Windows.

Malphas
October 20th, 2005, 09:01 PM
Jenda was being sarcastic, surely?

mokeyjoe
October 20th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Hm, I just don't find I agree with many of these points. Ubuntu works a lot faster for me than XP (I'm on 256mb RAM). XP is a huge resource hog! My HD is fileswapping all the time - never with Ubuntu. Loads of programs for windows seem to have their own unique UI,- iTunes, WMP, Picasa, Realplayer etc. and some software (especially what I use at work) still uses the 'Windows Classic' look. As for media, just a few minutes ago XP told me that it couldn't play an AVI file. When I went to look at the plugins to see if there was something I needed it greeted me with a blank page in IE. :???:

As far as configuration files go, DLL files and the Registry are impenetrable to me. I've only been using Linux for a little while and I quite like the fact that there seems to be a standard fix or workaround for every problem I encounter. There's loads of little bugs in my Windows but I wouldn't know where to start with them as no-one else seems to have the same problems as me!

The rest of the problems are all hardware issues that are generally down to the manufacturer - although it is annoying when something doesn't work. Mind you I guess thats because people buy hardware with an eye on windows compatability not Linux, or are using ex-Windows boxes. It is a Windows world after all.

When I first started with Ubuntu I felt like banging my head against the wall. But thanks to these forums (and with a little perseverence) I've managed to sort everything out and it all runs like a dream! Admittedly there are problems, mainly for the new user and especially when it comes to hardware compatibility, but I guess I just don't have the same problems as you :)

Stormy Eyes
October 20th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Jenda was being sarcastic, surely?

It can be hard to tell sometimes. My apologies if Jenda was being sarcastic.

Jenda
October 20th, 2005, 10:16 PM
Actually I think this is was a fair point. While choice and variety is a good thing, the lack of better interpolarity is annoying and is no doubt off-putting to would-be application developers. Definitely something that needs to be resolved before we're going to see a better choice of software available for GNU/Linux.
Yes, perhaps you are right. If the appearance of an app was given totally by the desktop environment, we might be onto something nice. But I still prefer when the author decides what the thing will look like. I might even prefer the things to be different. You know... my toaster indistinguishable from the telly (which I dont have) or the front door? And besides:


Indeed. We would all prefer no choice at all in appearance and no variation. No Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Fluxbox, just "The UI".
We? Please don't speak for others when expressing an opinion. I, for one, don't object to variation. If I wanted a monolithic UI I'd still be using Windows.
-my point exactly, Stormy Eyes
Jenda was being sarcastic, surely?

It can be hard to tell sometimes. My apologies if Jenda was being sarcastic.
-accepted. I'll make sure I use [sarcasm] tags next time...

jdodson
October 20th, 2005, 10:50 PM
Please don't misundersand me, I like Linux and I enjoy tinkering with it. I just get rather frustrated (as I do in Windows too) and it helps to rant sometimes ;)

I would suggest attempting to fix the problems that crop up. Ranting is fine, though, I have seen many people rant, and do nothing. I would suggest action, instead of ranting.


1. It’s just so slow. In every distro I’ve tried, applications load faster and run smoother in Windows than they do in Linux. And file browsers like Nautilus? Can we say resource hog?

Milage varies, though I admit Gnome is a bit of a resource-muncher. Then again, compare apples to apples. XP is a 5 year old OS. Did Gnome take as much ram and as long to load as it did 5 years ago? Longhorn will come out shortly, it is to my knowledge the most resource intense OS I have ever heard of. If we compare apples to apples here, Gnome is a saint compared to Longhorn or MacOSX.


2. Sound Support. This one is more a personal problem, but my M Audio 2496 just doesn’t want to cooperate with Linux. Why can I get sound from OSS and not Alsa? And how exactly does OSS or Alsa work, why is Alsa supposedly better, and how the hell do I configure any of it?

Purchase a Sound Card that supports ALSA well. Problem solved. Crappy soundcards are a reality, they suck in Windows too.


3. Configuration Files. Speaking of configuration, so many cogs and wheels work according to their specific configuration files. If you know where these files are and what settings to change, you’re in good shape. Don’t know where/how to edit xorg.conf to get X settings just right? Tough luck buddy.

SuSE has a nice program called YaST. If GUI config you need, try SuSE. Some would cite GNU/Linux extreme configurability as a strength. I am one of them. If you need GUI tools try something other than Ubuntu, unless you can manage with the stock Gnome config tools.


4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And let’s not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1.

Choice means difference in GUI widgets. Some people don't like the state we are in because developers are free to choose different toolkits. Its just the world you live in when you go Free Software. I would suggest either choosing only Gnome apps if you use Gnome, or KDE apps if you use KDE if you want consistent look and feel. Otherwise, you are stuck.


5. Hardware Support. While this has greatly improved over the years, I’m really aiming this one at ATI. My ATI X800 XL runs great in Windows, but boy oh boy are those Linux drivers dreadful.

ATI has dri. Older ATI cards(and the newer ones are catching up) support 3D right out of the box using the kernel and NO propretary drivers only. To me, its a small price to pay for kernel level drivers, being its important to me to have a Free system. If you want better "here and now" 3D propretary support, purchase Nvidia, its really no secret they make the best propreitary driver out there. You have no excuse here, unless you recently switched, it is a well documented reality.


6. Software Installation. I must admit, apt-get in Ubuntu is fabulous, but it doesn’t always work right, and for non apt distros,compiling from source is confusing and frustrating for non experienced users. Rpms aren’t too bad, but when you get caught in dependency hell, you’ll long for a simple Windows install.

To each her/his own, but I disagree with you. The new way to install software in Breezy is a dream come true. apt-get is straight form the on high.


7. Video/Media Playback. This has more to do with patents, MS only formats, and licensing than a Linux specific problem, but the fact that free distros can’t package support for DVDs and many win32 codecs is a major drawback.

Petition your local lawmakers to change the current software patent laws. Seriously, take this fight to the streets, complaining is useless here.


8. Games. Again, not a problem with Linux architecture as much as game vendors not porting games to the platform. Yet, the solutions to play Windows games in Linux will either cost you extra money, be extremely frustrating to set up, or a combination of both.

Stop purchasing games that don't support GNU/Linux. Supporting titles that have full support is the only way to make developers realize they NEED to support multi-systems. You could also drop all propretary games, thereby dropping this need entirely.


9. Dual Boot Setup. I’ve installed many linux distros in the past 5 years and this is not really a major setback for me anymore, but for new users who don’t wish to erradicate Windows from their computers, this is a major point of confusion and fear to get it set up correctly. Although I must give kudos to Mandrake (or Mandriva as it is now called). Their disk partitioning is the easiest I’ve used.

I don't see what the problem is here.


10. I still have to dual boot. I’m mentioned 9 things I dislike about Linux above. I don’t really wish to complain about Linux until I’m blue in the face. The fact is, I like Linux, and I get frustrated that because of the above things (and a few others such as specific windows only software), I still have to dual boot. I would like to switch completely over to Linux. It’s just not completely what I need, and that’s one of the most frustrating things of all.

Drop the games, get a good video card, petition your local lawmakers, stop purchasing propretary games.

I had ALL the problems you mentioned, I realized it was not GNU/Linux that was broken it was my habits and my love for the propretary.

poofyhairguy
October 20th, 2005, 11:51 PM
Please don't misundersand me, I like Linux and I enjoy tinkering with it. I just get rather frustrated (as I do in Windows too) and it helps to rant sometimes ;)

Also, I'm still unknowledgeable about many things Linux, and most of these probably have answers, if only I knew about them.

1. Itís just so slow. In every distro Iíve tried, applications load faster and run smoother in Windows than they do in Linux. And file browsers like Nautilus? Can we say resource hog?

2. Sound Support. This one is more a personal problem, but my M Audio 2496 just doesnít want to cooperate with Linux. Why can I get sound from OSS and not Alsa? And how exactly does OSS or Alsa work, why is Alsa supposedly better, and how the hell do I configure any of it?

3. Configuration Files. Speaking of configuration, so many cogs and wheels work according to their specific configuration files. If you know where these files are and what settings to change, youíre in good shape. Donít know where/how to edit xorg.conf to get X settings just right? Tough luck buddy.

4. Non-consistent UI between some apps. There are some smooth Gnome and KDE themes available. But what if I like to use K3B in Gnome and my Gnome theme is waaay different than KDE? And letís not even talk about the butt ugly programs that still use GTK 1.

5. Hardware Support. While this has greatly improved over the years, Iím really aiming this one at ATI. My ATI X800 XL runs great in Windows, but boy oh boy are those Linux drivers dreadful.

6. Software Installation. I must admit, apt-get in Ubuntu is fabulous, but it doesnít always work right, and for non apt distros,compiling from source is confusing and frustrating for non experienced users. Rpms arenít too bad, but when you get caught in dependency hell, youíll long for a simple Windows install.

7. Video/Media Playback. This has more to do with patents, MS only formats, and licensing than a Linux specific problem, but the fact that free distros canít package support for DVDs and many win32 codecs is a major drawback.

8. Games. Again, not a problem with Linux architecture as much as game vendors not porting games to the platform. Yet, the solutions to play Windows games in Linux will either cost you extra money, be extremely frustrating to set up, or a combination of both.

9. Dual Boot Setup. Iíve installed many linux distros in the past 5 years and this is not really a major setback for me anymore, but for new users who donít wish to erradicate Windows from their computers, this is a major point of confusion and fear to get it set up correctly. Although I must give kudos to Mandrake (or Mandriva as it is now called). Their disk partitioning is the easiest Iíve used.

10. I still have to dual boot. Iím mentioned 9 things I dislike about Linux above. I donít really wish to complain about Linux until Iím blue in the face. The fact is, I like Linux, and I get frustrated that because of the above things (and a few others such as specific windows only software), I still have to dual boot. I would like to switch completely over to Linux. Itís just not completely what I need, and thatís one of the most frustrating things of all.

Yep. Thats almost the full list. Most are very valid complaints.

Yet many still prefer it, like me. Why? Because to some, you just posted a list of fun challenges instead of problems.

mstlyevil
October 20th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Problems, I don't see any problems in Linux. All I see is challenges.

m@dm@x
October 21st, 2005, 04:09 AM
Problems, I don't see any problems in Linux. All I see is challenges.

I agree. I haven't been able to get my wireless to work yet, mostly because I haven't had the time but, I like the challenge. Once winter hits I'll get it going. I love linux and my disto of choice is Ubuntu.

towsonu2003
October 21st, 2005, 05:51 AM
1. drivers

that's it...

Goober
October 21st, 2005, 06:21 AM
I totally agree with 8. If I could install M$ Office and all my Windows Games conveniently in Ubuntu or any Linux distro, then I would ditch and reformat my Windows HD faster then the speed of sound. Or light. Something.

The lack of a convenient method to install Windows Games and Programs is the biggest, well, not problem, but, annoyance, i guess, to those of us who enjoy gaming and need to use some Windows programs, but don't have time to get an Emulator working. Or have tried, and just given up. Challenge is a very good word. Yes, for me, getting a Windows Emulator or VMware or the whatnot is a challenge. So is finding the time for it.

mpettitt
October 21st, 2005, 09:39 AM
Windows only games are an issue, but MS Office compatibility in OpenOffice and Abiword is at such a high level now that it is only really an issue with Publisher and Access files. I get a lot of Word and Excel documents from clients, but don't have Office, and haven't had any problems handling them in OpenOffice for quite a while now, and given some of my client's handling of macro viruses, this could be a good thing...
I do run Windows on my laptop though: I need Internet Explorer for testing sites (I do some web development), and the support for my wireless network card and flash card reader are a lot more stable in Windows.
Still, it has a really rubbish graphics system, so I tend to stick with Linux native games. Neverwinter Nights, Darwinia and a PS2 keep me entertained :-)

flibble
October 21st, 2005, 10:48 AM
jdodson, you've raised plenty of good points there but I do have to point out that:

"Purchase a Sound Card that supports ALSA well. Problem solved. Crappy soundcards are a reality, they suck in Windows too."

... doesn't apply to the original poster's m-audio 2496. It is a high quality, semi-professional card which is fully supported by alsa. M-audio supply fully open source drivers and native control software for the card is included as part of alsa-utils (usually, see below). This makes it frustrating that it doesn't seem to work under Ubuntu. I have the same card and it works perfectly under Gentoo but I get glitching no matter what I do under Ubuntu. I see on the forum and via google that we aren't the only ones with this problem. I've tried every combination in asound.conf that I can think of, or find on the net, and I still can't get the card to perform. I'm now looking at irq issues. It does seem to be Ubuntu related though, because the same card, on the same hardware, works flawlessly under Gentoo...

To the OP: Hunt for envy24control on the net. It is m-audio's linux control app for the card. It is usually part of the alsa-utils package but isn't included in this package with Ubuntu. (I think because of Debian concerns over licensing issues). It will allow you to access the full hardware mixing and routing capabilities of the 2496. If (when!) we get alsa working, that'll rock. :)

MakubeX
October 21st, 2005, 06:00 PM
If we compare apples to apples here, Gnome is a saint compared to Longhorn or MacOSX.


Gnome is a saint compared to Longhorn but Mac OS X is a different thing to consider into comparison. Besides, imho, MAC OS X is a lot better than Longhorn.