Is the olpc a sellout?

[days_of_ruin]

What with all the putting xp on it, etc...

[pluviosity]

I'm just amused that Microsoft is keen on keeping XP around for that.......what about Vista, shouldn't its value be just what the kids need? :p

[Bakon Jarser]

Nogroponte is dead to me. Not that he even knows I'm alive, but still, he's dead to me.

[bufsabre666]

theyre only a sell out if they start charging more, if they can now provide it cheaper theyre doing a service, it seems alot of people are conflating this to linux vs xp, where the mission of the program is to provide a computer to help educate kids

[cardinals_fan]

They only qualify as a sell-out if they charge the kids/schools/charities/whoever more for XP. As long as the price doesn't rise, the OS is irrelevant.

[days_of_ruin]

They only qualify as a sell-out if they charge the kids/schools/charities/whoever more for XP. As long as the price doesn't rise, the OS is irrelevant.
They are.Adding windows takes more space so the price DOES rise.

[Bakon Jarser]

They only qualify as a sell-out if they charge the kids/schools/charities/whoever more for XP. As long as the price doesn't rise, the OS is irrelevant.


The XP version is $3 more. If you want to dual boot both OS's then you have another $7 charge for an extra SD card for a total of $10. This whole thing goes against their original goal of not having limits on what kids could do with the laptop. With XP you have lower limits of what you can do. With no source code you can't change it at all like you can with Sugar.

[OmegaBLK]

theyre only a sell out if they start charging more,


Wrong. The OLPC project and Mr. Nergoponte are sellouts because they are compromising their core values to accommodate a corporation who's only concern is not the children of these developing nations, but only in keeping competition (Linux is this case) from gaining a foothold in a market which they really never gave a damn about until now. Funny now the OLPC project's core values is now more inclusive of proprietary crap when before they led the world to believe that they were all about an open platform and children would be hamstrung with proprietary products.




if they can now provide it cheaper theyre doing a service,


So why not give Windows XP away for free if they (Microsoft) were really genuine about helping kids in developing countries?



it seems alot of people are conflating this to linux vs xp,


No they are not. Support from the FLOSS community for this project had more to do with the openness of it then which FLOSS os was being used. Now with XP, there is no more openness--just a black box that is crippled and closed from the start.



where the mission of the program is to provide a computer to help educate kids

Except we now learn that wasn't really true:

From Ivan Krstic's blog (he is a former security developer for the OLPC)



In fact, I quit when Nicholas told me — and not just me — that learning was never part of the mission. The mission was, in his mind, always getting as many laptops as possible out there; to say anything about learning would be presumptuous, and so he doesn't want OLPC to have a software team, a hardware team, or a deployment team going forward.

source (http://radian.org/notebook/sic-transit-gloria-laptopi)



They only qualify as a sell-out if they charge the kids/schools/charities/whoever more for XP. As long as the price doesn't rise, the OS is irrelevant.


Bzzt. Wrong too. The project compromised their core values by dealing (capitulating) a company that produces a proprietary OS and that has no desire to educate the children of developing nations, but only to get them as new customers.

For the bamboozled or those that do not understand that OLPC has sold out, read: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles/lang-en

and compare it to this:



XO is built from free and open-source software. Our commitment to software freedom gives children the opportunity to use their laptops on their own terms. While we do not expect every child to become a programmer, we do not want any ceiling imposed on those children who choose to modify their machines. We are using open-document formats for much the same reason: transparency is empowering. The children—and their teachers—will have the freedom to reshape, reinvent, and reapply their software, hardware, and content.

source (http://www.laptop.org/en/laptop/software/)

Now answer the question again. Do you think they sold out? Sure looks like it to me. How can you state this:



Give me a free and open environment and I will learn and teach with joy.


but then adopt a proprietary os as the base?

[smoker]

i totally agree with OmegaBLK

sell out

[uraldinho]

this is the biggest disappointment of the week for me.

I've been following OLPC news since the project was first conceived. $100 was always too ambitious, although I do think it's possible in the near future.

Not long ago they had problems with Intel launching similar devices, and now this. Big companies simply use their financial muscle to ensure their monopoly continues. I don't like MS's marketing strategy when it comes to schools. In the name of education they give cheap licenses to schools, but in reality they are tying the next generation to a proprietary software.

On a positive note. I've just read, the total orders of OLPC are more than 600,000 and they expect another 400,000 orders in 60-90 days to reach the first million. 1 million laptops is not a big number considering the fact that there are currently around 1 billion PCs worldwide, but it's a start.

I wish them good luck....

[az]

I don't think it's a sellout. I think the project is/was poorly managed.

Like anything else, if a project is well managed (example the Ubuntu project) it should do well. If a project is mismanaged/undermanaged, it doesn't have a chance of doing well.

There is a lot to learn from this situation.

[Tom Mann]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7402365.stm

So XP has made it's way into the developing countries - possibly dammaging for Bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1)?

[Jadd]

It's definately damaging for bug n1, because it is spreading a myth: you need Windows on your computer. But you don't! And most especially kids, they don't need windows!
I also find it a very deceiving and disappointing move from OLPC's leaders. They made it clear that both children's education and freedom was important to them, but now, they've changed their minds, saying that they actually want to get as many laptops as they can out there. Money-making buisnesses have that goal, why should they?

[Peter6218]

As expected OLPC has dropped Linux in favour of Windows XP.

Money talks !!

http://tinyurl.com/6cemuk

[Joeb454]

Are you really surprised?

If Linux gained a decent market share in the developing markets, then Microsoft would have a lot to worry about. This is their way of insuring that they'll have a good market share in future

[christianxxx]

Reading the article, it seems to me its a step back.
The original XO offers advanced technology not available in XP, and furthermore XP is an old OS just waiting to be cancelled.
It's only the failures of Vista that keeps XP alive.

They (countries that has asked for the change) don't know what they really asked for.
The only good thing is that XO will still be available with Linux.

[MONODA]

The only good thing is that XO will still be available with Linux.for the time being...

[billgoldberg]

I don't care if people use xp or linux. There more options you have the better.

I wouldn't want to use an 7 year old OS, but that might just be me.

[christianxxx]

I understand your concerns, but it's really only speculations.
The article states that the intention is to provide both, though they cannot rule out the possibility of only providing one.

It boils down to user preferences. I might be really cool to speculate that MS has paid Egypt to demand XP, but I consider it unlikely.
We have to accept that not everyone wants a new and better OS. Alle we can do is to continue to use it, and spread the word of success.
Hopefully more people will open their eyes.

What I find interesting is the miniscule increase in cost by moving to XP, which suggests the licensing must be subsidised. Subsidising can only be interpreted as a move to squeeze out Linux, but again, someone wanted XP.

[Cifra]

I think someone from Microsoft sent a huge wad of cash Negroponte's way.

[gn2]

The money that is being ploughed into the OLPC project would be far better utilised being injected into conventional education.

Kids don't need IT hardware to learn, they need schools and teachers and books.

The whole thing is a mismanaged farce.

[SupaSonic]

The money that is being ploughed into the OLPC project would be far better utilised being injected into conventional education.

Kids don't need IT hardware to learn, they need schools and teachers and books.

The whole thing is a mismanaged farce.

+1 I've got nothing to add

[will1911a1]

Doesn't matter much to me what OS they decide to use, their computers are not my computers.

[uraldinho]

The money that is being ploughed into the OLPC project would be far better utilised being injected into conventional education.

Kids don't need IT hardware to learn, they need schools and teachers and books.

The whole thing is a mismanaged farce.

this is not true... Everyone knows internet access is a very good educational tool. It opens your eyes to the world, lets you browse for information, etc.

Besides, computer literacy is a must have in today's world. I don't know how old you are, but I was at school in the pre-internet era. Looking back at it, when I went to uni I was computer illiterate and I did struggle with computers in my first years at uni. It was a norm in my times, but if we can teach computer literacy at a younger age, why not do it?

PS: the OLPC project is costing no one. It's a non-profit organisation, that will sell cheap laptops at cost value to various governments around the world. $200 per laptop is not a very high price. Initially it might sound like a lot, but considering that a normal PC is used for something like 3-4 years, the annual cost is more like $50 per laptop. Even in the developing world, the total cost of education per kid per year is more like $1000. So the cost of laptop is not that high. Besides, if a few organisations can help the school with purchases, even better.

[Paqman]

No, it's not a sellout. The point of the OLPC isn't to support Linux, it's to put computers in the hands of kids in the third world. If using XP is going to make that happen, then we've got not right to slate them for it.

It's disappointing, but their customers were asking for Windows specifically, just like with the eeePC.

[regomodo]

Sellout. Nothing less.

Here's a link (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/05/xp_on_the_olpc.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890) to a video of xp on linux with it being through by microsoft

[HermanAB]

The OLPC is dead. They just haven't realized it yet.

The Intel Classmate and a zoo of similar machines are better value and they actually work too.

[tgalati4]

The simple point people are missing is that the Gates Foundation has billions of dollars to spend, and they would rather spend it by putting XP on cheap laptops than support OLPC with a Linux operating system.

The OLPC got a slow start but now it seems to be gaining traction. It's all good.

By the time the rollout really happens, more countries/governments will choose open source software for their institutions. Wouldn't it be ironic if Microsoft/Windows XP helps to subsidize all of this hardware and deploy it, only to be wiped with a cool Linux distro in the future.

It's as crazy as putting corn in your gas tank and having the price of bread go up as a result.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Sadly, I gave up on OLPC as soon as the higher-ups stopped respecting the importance and quality of their software. Sugar is an incredible interface for computer education; the hardware is, to put it lightly, not their strong point.

It's pretty impressive hardware and has some really cool stuff to it, but the quality of that hardware is not a key to success here; any other hardware project could duplicate it, and likely do it better. (Hint: Intel gets Intel chips for cheap). The software, on the other hand, could and would not be replicated by Classmate or a similar project. It is truly unique.

Oh, I guess it wouldn't hurt to chime in that the software there can be largely attributed to a very active community which I am sure would prefer not to see it dropped like this.

The ammount of lunacy necessary to not realize how much more important the XO-1's software is than its hardware suggests to me two possibilities:

-Negroponte has completely lost it
-They have sold out to Microsoft, losing all sanity in the face of cash

[Kernel Sanders]

Absolutely not. It was their customers that requested XP rather than Linux, so by supporting XP they are giving their customers what they want.

Had they refused, they would essentially be ramming open source software down the throats of people who dont want it.

After all, freedom is all about choice. The OLPC customers demanded to have XP as an option, and OLPC obliged.

It's amazing how so many people think this is wrong, yet commend Dell for bowing to the pressure of their customers in demanding a Linux option on Dell PC's.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Heh, forgot that detail. Now I have woken up properly, I agree with you Kernel Sanders!

I do suspect they have done poorly promoting the software, however, considering those requests. "Does it have Windows?" sounds like the question asked when one is unconvinced about the quality of the existing software, where I think we can see ourselves that the Sugar interface is better designed for the focus here. It allows for rapid collaboration (IMPORTANT SKILL for developing countries), permits tinkering and will not waste class time with lessons on "how to use." XP, on the other hand, is known to baffle even very intelligent people on a daily basis. From the looks of some early demos of XP running on the XO-1, it does not appear they have done anything for the Start menu's horrible All Programs section, the unsuitable window manager or the unreadably large window titles.
Perhaps the countries insisting on Windows are unaware that it will cost them far more money and time, both in the price of the product and the cost of implementing it in their education systems. (Oh, and then dealing with viruses).

One other random thought: I see no benefit to teaching kids in poor developing countries how to use Microsoft Office since those skills are mainly applicable for business in developed countries. (Darn, I think I forgot the politically correct terminology here). Teaching them those things is working on an excessive, dangerous and, frankly, unrealistic assumption that they will all hop onto planes and move elsewhere. Okay, that's not to say computers are nonexistent in countries that want the OLPC, but they definitely are less frequent, and where money is sparse I just do not see people wanting to spend piles of money of MS Office licenses.
What is useful? The Interwebs, writing, math... and fun! If I recall correctly, Windows XP lacks an included chess game :o
Also, if my brain is working yet, software development is one job that can be done remotely. (Good old trade of resources: Labour for strong outside money). While the easy tinkering idea and learning Python may sound a tad unnecessary, I for think it could be more useful than people assume.

With that in mind, I also think a problem is ready to pop up with OLPC having a stretched foundation. Countries where the XO-1 is not a person's "first personal computer" are definitely likely to be unconvinced by Sugar and want XP for the sake of familiarity. Is it truly sane to try catering to them as well as the other Sugar-suited countries so early in OLPC's life?

[whynotchevron]

“Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –Lord Acton, 1887

Sure people or governments can request for whatever they are PAID to ask for , example : how's that new msooxml working out ?

[Paqman]

I see no benefit to teaching kids in poor developing countries how to use Microsoft Office, since those skills are mainly applicable for business in developed countries.

They use Windows and MS Office just as much in developing countries. They just use pirated copies.

[bigbrovar]

we must also add that with linux the kids would have a secured OS and wont have to deal with virus and worms ... given them a secured platform to learn and browse the net freely without fear of an attack.... its really sad that this thing should happen .. what children need is an open platform that would allow them to learn without limitation ... oh well most times evil triumphs over good

[Xerp]

Absolutely not. It was their customers that requested XP rather than Linux, so by supporting XP they are giving their customers what they want.

Had they refused, they would essentially be ramming open source software down the throats of people who dont want it.

After all, freedom is all about choice. The OLPC customers demanded to have XP as an option, and OLPC obliged.

It's amazing how so many people think this is wrong, yet commend Dell for bowing to the pressure of their customers in demanding a Linux option on Dell PC's.
Do you have a source for that information? Which customers specifically, for example?

[days_of_ruin]

we must also add that with linux the kids would have a secured OS and wont have to deal with virus and worms ... given them a secured platform to learn and browse the net freely without fear of an attack.... its really sad that this thing should happen .. what children need is an open platform that would allow them to learn without limitation ... oh well most times evil triumphs over good
+1.It will turn into "one botnet per child".

[gn2]

PS: the OLPC project is costing no one.

So the hardware is being given away free, the government education departments involved don't pay a penny?

I'm 46.

I started at school before pocket calculators existed.

I can work things out in my head.

Kids educated now struggle because they just learn how to operate a calculator.

The internet is a useful tool, but it is no substitute for proper research.

A laptop isn't going to teach children basic literacy and numeracy and this is where the problem lies, not all children have the opportunity to pick these basic skills up.

I would far rather the money wasted on the OLPC project was channeled into providing basic primary education where none exists.

[drrwhistle3]

Read this article:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080516-olpc-and-microsoft-will-make-windows-available-on-xo.html

This angers me! If M$ is going to put themselves on these computer to weasel in and try to look good how will they supply liscensing for there software? Not FREE I bet.

Another diversionary tactic to overshadow Linux based systems.

And, of course, the pricetag goes up.

Bully to you M$ ](*,)

[alphaniner]

I think OLPC was an absurd notion from the get go. So... meh.

Also, this is probably not the appropriate forum for this thread.

[drrwhistle3]

You are so right. I just needed to spout and my wife thinks I am a freak when it comes to this so she woon't listen. If someone knows how to remove this thread please do so with my apologise!!

[Bakon Jarser]

The money that is being ploughed into the OLPC project would be far better utilised being injected into conventional education.

Kids don't need IT hardware to learn, they need schools and teachers and books.

The whole thing is a mismanaged farce.

The XO laptop ships with lots of creative commons ebooks. That was one of the major selling points. The textbooks alone were probably worth the price.

[Bakon Jarser]

Do you have a source for that information? Which customers specifically, for example?

Egypt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7402365.stm

[uraldinho]

So the hardware is being given away free, the government education departments involved don't pay a penny?

I'm 46.

I started at school before pocket calculators existed.

I can work things out in my head.

Kids educated now struggle because they just learn how to operate a calculator.

The internet is a useful tool, but it is no substitute for proper research.

A laptop isn't going to teach children basic literacy and numeracy and this is where the problem lies, not all children have the opportunity to pick these basic skills up.

I would far rather the money wasted on the OLPC project was channeled into providing basic primary education where none exists.

Quote: "The money that is being ploughed into the OLPC project"

My point was that the OLPC project isn't costing Negroponte or the big players in it any money. They get paid for what they are doing. The end cost will be with the government that is going to buy them, ie, the customer. So none of the involved parties are wasting any time or money, for them it's business as usual.

My issue was with the wording, ie, money being put into the project. I really don't think anyone is wasting any money, or putting extraordinary amount of money in it.

I suspect there is a group of researchers getting paid whatever the researcher's rate is. If you think about it, probably only 1 out of 10 research project result in a tangible outcome. So if nothing comes out of it, it's not a big waste, ie, it's 90% expected to fail. They increased awareness, did some research on mobility, mesh networks, low power consumption, etc, got a few publications just like any other research group. Such work is very usual, and is never a waste.

However, at the end of the day, YES the customer that might have a better use for the money may or may not buy it. That's for the customer to decide. In some cases it might be a waste, in some it might turn out to be a very useful product.

I remember reading that one of the small countries (it was an american country, i cant remember which one) invested in IT and IT education, and the result was a "higher quality of labour". That was one of the examples OLPC came up with. So there is evidence that investing in IT has a long term return.

[Growbag]

It IS a sellout when you read their own "Principles" here:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Core_principles/lang-en

The first one is "Ownership", you cannot own a copy of a Microsoft product, you merely pay for it, then do as they tell you, whenever they feel like it.

That is written in the long and incoherent "EULA" that you have to agree to.

I haven't seen the EULA for that version of XP, but I would be happy to place a wager on it being much the same as all the others.

Plus in the second "Principle", it says: "Children don’t need to write or read in order to play with the XO".

OK, so if they can't read, how can they accept a EULA?

And the last "Principal" nails the coffin shut: "There is no inherent external dependency in being able to localize software into their language, fix the software to remove bugs, and repurpose the software to fit their needs. Nor is there any restriction in regard to redistribution".

So technically they are lying through their rotten, black, festering, stinking teeth in my opinion.

[kwacka]

Unfortunately countries like Egypt refused unless it had Windows.

Possibly the same countries that suddenly registered to vote for OXML as an ISO standard.

Unfortunately also, the Windows version can't use mesh networks and a couple of other things.

As Linux Torvalds said "Bill Gates can't tell me a thing about computers and I can't tell him a thing about business".

I'm still looking for an example of Microsoft's 'innovation' (beyond the EULA, of course).

[eldragon]

ive read somewhere (i think it was slashdot), someone said something like:
"they should sell the computers with linux to whoever wants to retail it on third world countries, with the original OS, and if the retailer wishes, put in there whatever he wants"

so microsoft would be forced to BUY laptops in order to get windows in them. it would still be a bargain for them, they would be keeping their monopoly.

there are some things to consider.

a) the OLPC project was finding it difficult for governments to buy the hardware. i live in argentina, a country that is supposedly in line to buy the toy, and we havent heard crap about them here.
so, i guess, ms jumping in and installing its OS means MS will be helping them financially, in order to get the laptops delivered.

b)another theory is that countries are requesting MS windows on the notebooks because
b1) politicians know nothing about open source, and they just request what they think is the best.
b2) ms is pressuring corrupt third world country politicians with big phat envelopes to request MS windows on the tiny laptop.


i do feel OLPC has really sold out, i bet negroponte or whatever his name is spelled is listening to the RELOAD album right now.


i still wish the laptops get to the kids in the world, and turn learning upside down.

[Tundro Walker]

I'm annoyed by this, too (the article, not you posting the thread).

I donated to OLPC, because

a) it's a good cause (if a bit ambitious)
b) it's pioneering lots of innovative technology to solve some tricky problems
c) as a low-cost, linux-based computer, it would undermine MS' current foothold (IE: if a generation of kids were raised on Linux instead of MS, then in 10-20 years, that would drastically impact MS' foothold in the market, since people tend to want to stick with the OS they grew up with.)

MS obviously saw this threat (undermining a new, youthful user base), so they bullied their way in by slashing their usually high licensing fee. From a business perspective, they made the right choice. But, that's where I have a problem with it. Everything they do is from a business perspective. They don't do things out of the kindness of their heart, only if it's to their benefit, short-term or long. This will eventually be to their benefit in the long-term.

[drrwhistle3]

I think this is the point I am trying to make. It is completely a business decision. They are not doing it for the benefit of individual children and helping give them a chance to succeed but to secure their future in the marketplace.
If Linux based operating systems were the only OS on the computer then they will have to be careful as more and more people realize that the option is out there.

M$ has not offered to pay the difference in the cost per computer. Nor do they say haow they intend to distribute their highly protected and EXPENSIVE software packages. This is why I am leaving M$. Perhaps I shouldn't have apologized earlier for posting this thread but asked everyone to post it on all message boards throughout the world and let people be heard.

When I donated I thought this would be in fairness to the world not a business boost for M$.

[Redrazor39]

"The New York Times says that the Windows license and the extra hardware required to support Windows brings the total cost of the XO machines up to approximately $200 each, which is twice as much as OLPC's initial target price. The task of porting OLPC's Sugar education software system to Windows will fall to third-party developers."

This completely defeats the purpose of OLPC!!!!

[Redrazor39]

I think whoever is running OLPC should just slap a big "NO!" on MS!

[ugm6hr]

This angers me! If M$ is going to put themselves on these computer to weasel in and try to look good how will they supply liscensing for there software? Not FREE I bet. ](*,)

Unfortunately, it is the world governments that are at fault.

They are the major customers for OLPC. The OLPC group have had numerous problems, and failing to achieve the 100USD price is only one; the whole project would fail without customers.

If governments had the foresight to support Linux, there would be no demand for the XP version.

Everyone forgets that MS is a business; hardly surprising they are looking to take advantage of this potential market now to breed a new generation of users. Think of it like cigarette companies marketing to 16-year-olds; good business sense for the future.

[Kernel Sanders]

Read this article:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080516-olpc-and-microsoft-will-make-windows-available-on-xo.html

This angers me! If M$ is going to put themselves on these computer to weasel in and try to look good how will they supply liscensing for there software? Not FREE I bet.

Another diversionary tactic to overshadow Linux based systems.

And, of course, the pricetag goes up.

Bully to you M$ ](*,)

*sigh*

This has nothing to do with MS. Many customers in the third world demanded XP support from the OLPC. They seek to emulate the western world, and facts dont lie, the majority are using Microsoft software, and they don't want to be seen to be using inferior goods. I know, I know, you're preaching to the converted, Linux is most certainly not inferior, but to them different = wrong. They just want to use the same as the majority.

Therefore, OLPC approached MS, and of course they were happy to oblige. A new generation of people in the third world being brought up on Microsoft Software? Future win for them, so of course they were going to do it.

So, at the moment customers of the OLPC have a choice. Linux, or windows?

Since choice is always a good thing, where's the harm? Unless you want to ram FOSS down their throats?

Seriously, enough with the conspiracy theories, enough with the shameless MS bashing. Microsoft have hundreds of faults, we don't need to resort to making up problems to attack them :rolleyes:

[drascus]

I think this is annoying the whole point of the OLPC was to give kids an open platform for learning. You take the thing apart you can take the software apart. It was supposed to be a total learnign platform. but with Windows on there the software will not give kids the oportunity to learn about how the software works. even worse they will be encombered by a EULA which does not support the ideals of sharing that a thriving community needs. when support for the windows version they are running runs out what will that mean? It is obvious that they won't have the money to upgrade. will they also have to incur the costs for securing a windows PC? basically if it ships with Windows on there you might as well just not ship it. All you are doing is handing people a burden.

[Ub1476]

Why Microsoft software is bad for the XO laptop:

Higher price (software + hardware)
Less storage
Reduced digital interaction between the children

Those which only comes with XP (you have to pay 4$ more ea laptop for XP + Linux), only gives one thing: technology to the children.

It destroys everything else.

[Chame_Wizard]

M$ is sure to **** up everything,they don't let Tux ALIVE :(

[Ub1476]

M$ is sure to **** up everything,they don't let Tux ALIVE :(

What I think is important is not that Linux runs on the system, but an open and free system does.

Which is Linux..

This is not an OS war. It's a war about business and freedom.

[zmjjmz]

I know that the governments will only accept Windows, but think about it.
The reason for taking in Windows is because those kids will grow up and learn the interface so they can be used in business, yet...
XP has a different interface than the new ones (Vista), and they'll be running Sugar anyways, right?
And they can't possibly expect these machines to run Office.
So the governments probably had
a) An incompetent IT management department.
b) An IT management department made up of MS and cohorts.

[Sephoroth]

*sigh*

This has nothing to do with MS. Many customers in the third world demanded XP support from the OLPC. They seek to emulate the western world, and facts dont lie, the majority are using Microsoft software, and they don't want to be seen to be using inferior goods. I know, I know, you're preaching to the converted, Linux is most certainly not inferior, but to them different = wrong. They just want to use the same as the majority.

Therefore, OLPC approached MS, and of course they were happy to oblige. A new generation of people in the third world being brought up on Microsoft Software? Future win for them, so of course they were going to do it.

So, at the moment customers of the OLPC have a choice. Linux, or windows?

Since choice is always a good thing, where's the harm? Unless you want to ram FOSS down their throats?

Unfortunately it isn't really the end users that will have the choice AFAIK as the primary customers are the countries. I don't blame MS for making such a move though I do believe such countries' policies aren't beneficial towards themselves in anyway and defeats much of the laptop's purpose.

[K.Mandla]

I have an XO-1, and I run Arch Linux on it. It's a nice little computer and very Linux-friendly, and I'll never put Windows on mine.

I suppose the alternative to making Windows available to the XO-1 is letting people or their governments pirate Windows and install it anyway. That would probably be what would happen, and truth be told, I'd rather a kid with an XO with Windows got it legitimately. I don't like the idea, but it's not my call.

[Xerp]

And Egypt is one of the developing countries? The same Egypt that Bill Gates has one-on-one heads of state meetings with?

Still sounds like a sell out.

[Tundro Walker]

To be honest, I don't mind if Windows is on it. It gives the kids the chance to learn two OS', making them more knowledgeable and competitive.

But, I don't like how the focus on OLPC seems to be less about helping children, and more about fighting in regards to political and business agendas.

OLPC has (had?) some innovative folks, but the governments they thought would buy them kept backing out, then Microsoft started sticking their nose in, then Intel started whining.

It seems the true nature of some folks comes out at times like this, and it's sad to see that the greed of so few can have a negative impact on so many.

When I was getting ready to donate, a little voice inside me told me to hold off...wait to see how it plays out, since I could just be tossing money at a sinking ship. But, I donated anyways because I believed in the cause. And, even if I could, I wouldn't take back my donation, because I still think things will work out, even if OLPC collapses and folks merely learn from the mistake of it.

Now, if folks don't learn from the mistakes... THEN I'll be pissed. :(

[rune0077]

Couldn't care less what OS runs on the computer, as long as it ends up where it should. This is not about promoting Linux, it's about kids who needs computers.

[Tundro Walker]

I have an XO-1, and I run Arch Linux on it. It's a nice little computer and very Linux-friendly, and I'll never put Windows on mine.

Does XO even have the specs to run XP? Even when highly stripped down? Is MS going to make some XO XP variant?

And, why don't they just make some Vista variant to run on ths? MS is cutting off support for XP, because they're doing the whole Vista push. So, why are they making it seem like third world countries only deserve their "old" OS?

Another thing that's annoying me about this (and the reason I think MS is doing this strictly as business positioning) is that MS still has the gall to charge $4 for the license. Jesus, just give them the license for free.

[Bakon Jarser]

And Egypt is one of the developing countries? The same Egypt that Bill Gates has one-on-one heads of state meetings with?

Still sounds like a sell out.

I agree they are a sell out. But no, it wasn't just Egypt. I'm too lazy to do any research right now, they happened to be the country I remembered. I wouldn't be surprised if all the countries that requested XP were bribed or otherwise influenced by Microsoft. They've done it before and they'll do it again. They're a convicted monopoly and they haven't changed their tactics, they've just improved them.

[Tripmonkey_uk]

If I didn't know that it will be the kids and the general public loosing out, I'd find it kinda funny.

Installing an operating system that's proven itself to be insecure on a laptop with mesh networking capabilities is an absolutely insane idea.
The easy network and file sharing was always one of the XO's biggest selling points, not to mention the ability for the kids to work on a single project at the same time from their own computers.

If Microsoft don't bother to add the software to take advantage of the mesh networking features of the laptop, then what's the point?

:confused:

[gn2]

The end cost will be with the government that is going to buy them

Exactly. Government money will be used to buy the OLPC's.
Money that could be ploughed into conventional education, instead of being squandered on questionable quality toy laptops that might not last more than a couple of years.

[Peter6218]

Regardless of how MS did this the result is the same. Linux has lost another user.

Because, decry it or not, the buying public & Govt's want what they know. MS is the answer.

Eee PC is in the same boat. Except they have a version running XP. I would bet if you compare the sales numbers you are going to find the XP way outsells the Linux version even if the Linux is actually a better OS for that machine.

[kwacka]

'The Observer' gives a good (to my mind, at least) write up on this subject - 'How Microsoft forced open a new window of opportunity' - at http://tinyurl.com/5nmrj8

The concluding paragraph:
"Letting Microsoft in by the back door is disappointing, but not a disaster. It will keep the project alive and it will still be possible to get the Open Source version of the laptop. And soon there will a dual-boot version that will let people make a direct comparison between Windows and Linux. A better sales opportunity for Open Source could not be envisaged."

[Peter6218]

M$ has not offered to pay the difference in the cost per computer. Nor do they say haow they intend to distribute their highly protected and EXPENSIVE software packages. This is why I am leaving M$. Perhaps I shouldn't have apologized earlier for posting this thread but asked everyone to post it on all message boards throughout the world and let people be heard.



Actually they have as the BBC story points out. Total cost increase is $10, $3 for License, $7 for software. For a total cost increase to the OLPC of $10. This balanced against the refusal of many countries to even think about the Linux based machine. Negroponte made the only business based decision he could. The OLPC as delivered currently is an exceptionally flawed piece of junk. I had one, luckily sold it. If you want a decently useful Linux laptop look at the Eee PC. That is real world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7402365.stm

[Peter6218]

So the hardware is being given away free, the government education departments involved don't pay a penny?

I'm 46.

I started at school before pocket calculators existed.

I can work things out in my head.

Kids educated now struggle because they just learn how to operate a calculator.

The internet is a useful tool, but it is no substitute for proper research.

A laptop isn't going to teach children basic literacy and numeracy and this is where the problem lies, not all children have the opportunity to pick these basic skills up.

I would far rather the money wasted on the OLPC project was channeled into providing basic primary education where none exists.

Yes and if you had actually had an OLPC, as I have, you would have discovered that the software supplied is about games and toys, not learning. A child would soon tire of what's supplied and since there is NO email and a rudimentary browser have gone away frustrated and disappointed !!

[madjr]

Microsoft has announced an agreement with One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) that will make Windows XP available on the non-profit's low-cost laptops for third-world children. Thank goodness third world children will no longer have to struggle to learn Linux, one tongue-in-cheek commentator observes. ...

continue:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7964349324.html

[smoker]

from link:
"The pain of having to deal with Windows crashes may make some of these kids excellent technical support (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7964349324.html#) people over time. They'd just get lazy with Linux being so stable all the time."

windows tech support! what a bright future to look forward too :-)

[DeadSuperHero]

from link:

windows tech support! what a bright future to look forward too :-)

Beats making shoes in a warehouse for a family of four...

[madjr]

ok...

[LightB]

Beats making shoes in a warehouse for a family of four...

And what are they going to "win tech" in such places? Their own XOs? The thing you say beats that gets beaten to a pulp and buried by actually improving the quality of life through improved educational culture and view of the world around them, you know, the ideal purpose of this project.

[nekroskoma]

i honestly think the OLPC is not the best use of money for developing nation in the first place

but there is nothing like getting them dependant on it early

[Half-Left]

Microsoft just want children to grow up knowing Windows and thats it, it's got nothing to do with helping them and never has.

[Martje_001]

Microsoft just want children to grow up knowing Windows and thats it, it's got nothing to do with helping them and never has.
Nope.. it's just money money money...

[S0VERE1GN]

I help people out all the time. It doesn't mean that i don't jus so happen to drop my name to them and tell them that i also have a car painting and aftermarket business. and it also doesn't mean i dont give them my card with some fly pics on it.

if i was microsoft id do the same thing, only to every public school in the world as well.

when you have enough money to buy Rhode Island, why not?

still makes me sad though, yea.. :(

[K.Mandla]

Merged a LOT of similar threads.

[madjr]

Merged a LOT of similar threads.

next time you should had sent a notification, i was looking for it for about an hour.

was just about to start a topic on "my thread got deleted"..

would avoid confusion.

[karellen]

as long as those kids can use their laptops for educative purposes, it's ok. openoffice, firefox, thunderbird ans so exists for windows too. no worry here. browsing the internet it's the same regardless the OS

[original_jamingrit]

Well, this project has always been about "let's give kids education", not "let's give kids Linux".

On the other hand, would the kids benefit more Linux than Windows? Both sides to that argument would both have a lot of good points.

[Johnsie]

I think it's disgusting that Linux and Windows users have made an issue out of which OS the systems run. The main priority should be getting cheap laptops out to the kids, not which operating systems is used.

The people crying "sell-out" seem to care more about the Linux promotion factor of this more than the actual children. If a kid can use XP to get an education then I have no problem with that. I would hate to shove Linux down a poor persons throat just because they cannot afford anything else. If you want to restrict these things to Linux only then that's exactly what you are doing. I say let them choose.

[muximus]

i believe the olpc's with windows installed on them have a slightly higher price..

so linux solution would make the olpcs slightly more affordable, and that slight difference in price makes for a huge overall difference, esp. if the governments at developing countries plan to equip schools etc. with olpcs.

I live in india, and with the humoungous numbers here, this small difference would turn out to be a difference of billions of dollars which can be used to further benefit the children, or be used to provide other facilities to the people..

so the manufacturers bending to corp pressure from M$ seems wrong, at least that is my opinion.

Also, linux is a better platform to learn about computers, bcoz of all the allowed tinkering, and would be more beneficial to the children

[madjr]

I think it's disgusting that Linux and Windows users have made an issue out of which OS the systems run. The main priority should be getting cheap laptops out to the kids, not which operating systems is used.

The people crying "sell-out" seem to care more about the Linux promotion factor of this more than the actual children. If a kid can use XP to get an education then I have no problem with that. I would hate to shove Linux down a poor persons throat just because they cannot afford anything else. If you want to restrict these things to Linux only then that's exactly what you are doing. I say let them choose.

-1

who says kids know how to choose?

in education (kindergarten till high-school) the government, the schools and the big enterprises chooses for ya.

When i was in school we didn't had the option to learn linux. Windows was forced down our throats.

M$ has been pushing windows, ie, office, etc. down our throats for over a decade.

sure, M$ sabotaging the OLPC is not forcing windows (once) again down these kids throats?

if you want them to choose wait for them to grow up... or maybe they should be free to choose to smoke, drink beer, drive a car and have sex at age 8

[kwacka]

One point, XP does not replace the cut-down version of fedora in the OLPC, it comes on a flash card , with limited functionality, e.g. you can not use a mesh network to connect to internet, each user has to connect directly.

I just hope the little dears don't lose their cards.

BTW saw a picture of the new OLPC last week - looks better.

[brucewagner]

As posted to our Ubuntu users Meetup forum, by Jay:


One Laptop Per Child may eventually switch from GNU/Linux to Windows

http://truthhappens.redhatmagazine.com/2008/04/23/sigh/

It seems like locking kids minds into proprietary frames still remains a priority for the educators.

So here is... My email correspondence with OLPC just now...

____

To: press@racepointgroup.com

Is it true that OLPC will be switching from a Linux OS to a Windows OS?

If so, you guys are pathetic, and I need to know so I can withdrawal all my support for the OLPC project as soon as possible.


Bruce Wagner

____

From: press@racepointgroup.com

This is not true. OLPC will support both Linux and Windows. Governments have been asking for both.

____

To: press@racepointgroup.com

That is NOT ok.

See http://linux.meetup.com/392/messages/boards/thread/4635205

And http://truthhappens.redhatmagazine.com/2008/04/23/sigh/

It it self-defeating to go down a proprietary closed corporate path like Windows. It is also self-defeating to split your resources in half between two separate development paths. Windows has no future in a program such as OLPC. Your role is EDUCATION, not backing down to special interests and corporate greed.

Don't cave in to anyone. Stick to FREEDOM -- open source free software, not corporate interests -- if you hope or expect to get any support from the global community.


Bruce Wagner

[MyR]

It's great that MS is helping ship laptops to kids. If they're having such difficulty delivering them without MS then the union makes sense. A linux-only laptop is useless if no one buys it.

From what I've read, the XO laptops are going to dual boot (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7402365.stm) and above). So once a virus infects a whole windows community, or the consumers install antivirus and the system runs at less than half it's normal speed, or windows crashes like it always will (especially in the hands of first-time computer users), consumers will choose Linux.

the process will go as follows:
1. OLPC ships dual-boot laptops with the help of MS
2. kids boot windows: BSOD (http://www.mofam.net/) ... press any key to continue
3. kids boot linux: :D


If they can choose between Linux and Windows, the choice will be obvious.

[Robux the great]

I was saddened to here that Monopoly$oft had got involved in the OLPC

With XP on it, It's just another laptop

Regards

Rob

[Craig73]

It's pretty impressive hardware and has some really cool stuff to it, but the quality of that hardware is not a key to success here; any other hardware project could duplicate it, and likely do it better.

Isn't the point that this hardware did not exist before this point? The market was completely focused on expensive machines that weigh a lot and were not really that usable outside of a building or far from a plug for any length of time.

So what if others copy it - they created something new!

I would be disappointed if others did not copy it - it's about more choice right?

Unfortunately MS's "Creative Capitalism" will ultimately create less choice and freedom for foreign countries without MS setting up shop there. That is more the uncomfortable part.

[Craig73]

Absolutely not. It was their customers that requested XP rather than Linux, so by supporting XP they are giving their customers what they want.

The amusing part is the lack of full disclosure... a MS blog was saying that "Save the Children" demanded XP yet failed to mention that Microsoft donated the Microsoft platform and support to them.

[Craig73]

I see no benefit to teaching kids in poor developing countries how to use Microsoft Office since those skills are mainly applicable for business in developed countries.

Why wouldn't they? Someone in Africa can't write a novel, or a research paper, or use Excel or Access to manage a business?

While I don't necessarily care for MS's approach (as it does create less choice) I think they deserve equal tools and allow them to create their own options.

If anything - that is the biggest loss to Windows taking over is that there is a dependence on Microsoft... with Open Source, the developed skills can be used to enhance their own Open Source - not work in an outsourcing sweat shop for "developed" countries.

[Craig73]

I've replied to a few things... but for my main though on this development

Firstly, I'm disappointed as this change because

1 - I realize that the greater MS's share of any market the less choice there is (why use something other than MS Office - if MS Office is the un-official world standard).

2 - The "Creative Capitalism" concept while delivering products to countries that can't afford them in present form, creates a situation where we get rich off the poor and have incredible leverage to keep them relatively poor (by ratcheting up prices as their economy 'strengthens') and under our control

That being said, I can't call this project a failure (or Negroponte a sell out).

1 - He (and anyone) has a vested interest in delivering as many machines as possible because of the vision that having a computer in the hands of all children (all people) will create opportunities (and it will...) [ignoring his included Open Source sales pitch]

2 - Countries should have a choice about how they develop themselves. They likely perceive great economic opportunity to develop on the MS platform, if not amongst local regions, but also to be a cheap source of outsourced labour for wealthy countries. [and they'd likely be right]

The continued thoughts that these countries have been 'manipulated to buy MS' is condescending and doesn't respect that these leaders need to make the best choice they can with what they have in front of them. [even if we perceive long term drawbacks]

Those countries that recognize a benefit to having an operating system, or applications, that they can control and enhance will have the same benefits as anyone else who chooses Open Source as the solution for them. The rest... well they will have the benefits of Closed Source. So it goes....

[coolglobal]

My opinion is that it is a sellout unfortunately. Microsoft can use this to "seed" communities it may not otherwise penetrate with traditional marketing methods. Once the seed is sown the money making begins.

The only other thing I would say is that once the xp system starts to suffer all the usual problems that are not found on a stable linux system, where are you then? With a cranky computer a million miles from a computer shop to fix it for you.

What is the service in supplying a faulty computer with an end game of making a few dollars out of poor people?

[coolglobal]

Here is a link to a trial of the OLPC laptop running windows. If you want to cut to the chase just read the Security? paragraph.

http://www.olpcnews.com/sales_talk/microsoft/windows_xo_video_dissection_.html

[dominiquec]

Not so much as a sellout as having been overtaken by the market. With the EeePC, the Explore (Classmate), the Wind, the Wizbook, the Cloudbook, and what have you, it just doesn't seem like it's relevant anymore.

On the other hand, we should probably credit the OLPC for opening up this market. It gave the manufacturers a new target to aim for in terms of price point and features.