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Cherry Cotton
May 9th, 2008, 10:19 AM
Something in me died when I saw that the Ubuntu babydoll shirts now have the standard slogan on them rather than "Linux for ladies." I really wanted one of those, and didn't know they were going away! A quick Google search showed me that they generated some controversy, which, I guess, is understandable. I don't know, I liked the shirt because I think most OSes would shy away from being associated with "ladies," and this made it seem like Ubuntu was loud and proud about an operating system with "womanly" values. You know? 'Cause girls RAWK.

Since that shirt was scrapped amid controversy, is there a chance that a warehouse somewhere in Slough contains a treasure trove of unwanted "ladies" Ubuntu shirts? Were they buried in a New Mexico desert? _Is there any way I can get one?_ Points for people who can tell me of anyone I might want to talk to about this.

I can see why people would want the standard "human beings" babydoll shirt. But, I want the one with womanly pride! Uh, if anyone can help me get my grubby, womanly mitts (worn out from all my womanly pursuits, such as Python coding and modular website design) on one. Thanks!

kevdog
May 9th, 2008, 11:16 AM
You can't be a lady -- there are no ladies or woman (don't mean to offend some readers) allowed in these forums. Its in the Code of Conduct!

SuperSon!c
May 9th, 2008, 11:37 AM
You can't be a lady -- there are no ladies or woman (don't mean to offend some readers) allowed in these forums. Its in the Code of Conduct!

^someone's lonely

Wobedraggled
May 9th, 2008, 12:34 PM
http://image.bayimg.com/eajlmaabj.jpg

"Hello, Ladies..."

I do think that the age old mantra of "Linux/*nix is not for girls" (unless of course they are in a shiny devil suit aka BSD girl), is kinda past it's point and time, women are tech savvy and we just need to get over it.

LaRoza
May 9th, 2008, 12:56 PM
You can't be a lady -- there are no ladies or woman (don't mean to offend some readers) allowed in these forums. Its in the Code of Conduct!

The internet: Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

PriceChild
May 9th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Have you tried dropping Canonical a line? Otherwise I guess the only way to get one would be to buy someone elses.

ShodanjoDM
May 9th, 2008, 01:10 PM
The internet: Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

And I'm Neo.

K.Mandla
May 9th, 2008, 01:15 PM
I'm Spartacus!

SuperSon!c
May 9th, 2008, 01:56 PM
please, no.

DrOlaf
May 9th, 2008, 01:57 PM
I'm Brian, and so is my wife!

barbedsaber
May 9th, 2008, 02:36 PM
I am the knight that says NI!

NI!

Tundro Walker
May 9th, 2008, 03:43 PM
<Every replier's subconscious thought>

OMG! It's a girl! Let's totally derail her thread by talking about anything EXCEPT her original topic!

</Every replier's subconscious thought>Funny how that happens... :) You guys need girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Or whatever else gets you out of the house and away from your computer for 10 minutes of the day.

DrOlaf
May 9th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Funny how that happens... :) You guys need girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Or whatever else gets you out of the house and away from your computer for 10 minutes of the day.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume you know my subconscious. My conscious thought when I read the OP's post was "That's a pain, and I'm sorry to say I don't have any useful advice for her." My conscious thought when I read K.Mandla's post was to make another Spartacus joke.

brigux
May 9th, 2008, 04:37 PM
I'm happy it's Friday evening.

jomiolto
May 9th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Agh, perhaps I'm over-analysing this thing, as always, but seems like a complex matter. I certainly wouldn't mind wearing a shirt with that text (although I would prefer a more general version, because I run several distros; something like "Linux an operating system for ladies" ;) ), but a lot of people would probably think that I was dissing Ubuntu or that I was joking (not that I would care much about their opinion), because there are all kinds of jokes and such about that. I would, of course, intend it as a compliment to Ubuntu and Linux.

Obviously some people take offence on shirts like that for various reasons; for implying that women are worse with computers and need an easier distro, for putting them on pedestal, or just for the fact that the other shirts say "linux for human beings" -- like women weren't human. But I think that's mostly quite silly, because I don't think noticing that people are different (not just in sex, but other things) is a bad thing, as long as there's no intent to be offensive or derogatory; for example, I'm smaller than average on height, but I don't mind people noticing that, as long as they don't treat me different or insult me for it.

Life would be so much more boring if we were all alike.

On the other hand, that shirt might be a good way to lure more women to use Ubuntu and Linux in general ;). Because I think the user base is way too masculine at the moment...

[Oh, and just for the record, I'm a guy.]

barbedsaber
May 9th, 2008, 04:45 PM
http://xkcd.com/322/

koenn
May 9th, 2008, 05:21 PM
Funny how that happens... :) You guys need girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Or whatever else gets you out of the house and away from your computer for 10 minutes of the day.
Where can I get one of those girlfriends that only take you away from the computer for 10 minutes a day ?

forrestcupp
May 9th, 2008, 06:07 PM
Where can I get one of those girlfriends that only take you away from the computer for 10 minutes a day ?

From a Siberian mail order bride company.

Cherry Cotton
May 9th, 2008, 07:43 PM
My replies:


Have you tried dropping Canonical a line? Otherwise I guess the only way to get one would be to buy someone elses.

Thanks! I'll try both.




<Every replier's subconscious thought>

OMG! It's a girl! Let's totally derail her thread by talking about anything EXCEPT her original topic!

</Every replier's subconscious thought>

Funny how that happens... :) You guys need girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Or whatever else gets you out of the house and away from your computer for 10 minutes of the day.

Thank you!


Agh, perhaps I'm over-analysing this thing, as always, but seems like a complex matter. I certainly wouldn't mind wearing a shirt with that text (although I would prefer a more general version, because I run several distros; something like "Linux an operating system for ladies" ;) ), but a lot of people would probably think that I was dissing Ubuntu or that I was joking (not that I would care much about their opinion), because there are all kinds of jokes and such about that. I would, of course, intend it as a compliment to Ubuntu and Linux.

Obviously some people take offence on shirts like that for various reasons; for implying that women are worse with computers and need an easier distro, for putting them on pedestal, or just for the fact that the other shirts say "linux for human beings" -- like women weren't human. But I think that's mostly quite silly, because I don't think noticing that people are different (not just in sex, but other things) is a bad thing, as long as there's no intent to be offensive or derogatory; for example, I'm smaller than average on height, but I don't mind people noticing that, as long as they don't treat me different or insult me for it.

Life would be so much more boring if we were all alike.

On the other hand, that shirt might be a good way to lure more women to use Ubuntu and Linux in general ;). Because I think the user base is way too masculine at the moment...

[Oh, and just for the record, I'm a guy.]

Sensitive + intelligent + insightful + respectful of differences + proper use of subjunctive mood = AWESOME POST! You get massive Cherry Points.

Seriously, thanks very much. Yes, part of the reason I'd want a shirt like that is to lure like-minded women to Linux. I love men, believe me, but it's my strong feeling that computers and OSes are too "masculine" in their design, simply because they were built primarily by men. They're brilliant men, of course, and should be commended a thousand times over. It just creates a strange bent where error messages and instructions are really opaque and commanding and the system always expects you to know what to do. I'm sure OSes designed entirely by women would have their own issues--we'll save that for another thread--but I think more women in IT would result in better programs overall because we'd have more of a mix of different ideas and tendencies. Mark Shuttleworth--like this guy, a sensitive man--took a huge leap by taking as hardcore a basis as Linux and making it warm and friendly, but no less powerful, and I guess I kind of want to honor that vision. Besides that, I love any example of "for ladies" being used as a synonym for "awesome." It's about time for it to be recognized that "for women" means more functionality, not less.


http://xkcd.com/322/

That rocks.

Memo to guys: when you stick up for women, whether or not you have a woman with an EMP cannon standing behind you (though if you want to kick in his door, I'll carry the EMP cannon), we appreciate it. In that "first they came..." sorta way, when somebody sticks up for you not because they're like you in this particular way, but because it's the right thing to do, it gives ya the warm fuzzies.

Okay, now for my stuff. Thanks, all. Please tell me if you've got any more ideas. Do you think talking to the Marketing Team would help? I guess I could talk to Ubuntu Women, too... but, I wouldn't want to start a discussion on the merits of the shirt, I just want one :)

(Of course, I'm also tall and skinny, so it's hard to find shirts my size. Perhaps I should go with "Ubuntu - Linux for skinny chicks" ;))

fissionmailed
May 9th, 2008, 09:12 PM
The internet: Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

And FBI agents are trolls, trolls are idiots and idiots are on the internet.

kevdog
May 9th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Notice how the ladies only stick up for other ladies?? What up with that?

sanderella
May 9th, 2008, 09:48 PM
I'm a lucky lady, I've got one.:popcorn:
I'll post a pic soon.

SuperSon!c
May 9th, 2008, 10:06 PM
oh boy, here come the F5's.

Phil Airtime
May 9th, 2008, 10:16 PM
What up with that?

You are Tim Westwood and I claim my 5.

Tundro Walker
May 10th, 2008, 01:39 AM
Where can I get one of those girlfriends that only take you away from the computer for 10 minutes a day ?

Like the t-shirt, there was too much controversy over them, so they discontinued that model. :)

Wow, now I'm being sexist.

swoll1980
May 10th, 2008, 02:11 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to assume you know my subconscious. My conscious thought when I read the OP's post was "That's a pain, and I'm sorry to say I don't have any useful advice for her." My conscious thought when I read K.Mandla's post was to make another Spartacus joke.

My thought was 'You can watch people on prime time tv screwing each other under the sheets, or shooting each other in the face, but a "Linux for Ladies" T-shirt sparks controversy'
Go figure. :confused:

jomiolto
May 10th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Sensitive + intelligent + insightful + respectful of differences + proper use of subjunctive mood = AWESOME POST! You get massive Cherry Points.

*blushes* :oops:
Thanks! (And I'd definitely wear a "Ubuntu - Linux for sensitive men" shirt, if there was such a thing ;) )


Seriously, thanks very much. Yes, part of the reason I'd want a shirt like that is to lure like-minded women to Linux. I love men, believe me, but it's my strong feeling that computers and OSes are too "masculine" in their design, simply because they were built primarily by men. They're brilliant men, of course, and should be commended a thousand times over. It just creates a strange bent where error messages and instructions are really opaque and commanding and the system always expects you to know what to do. I'm sure OSes designed entirely by women would have their own issues--we'll save that for another thread--but I think more women in IT would result in better programs overall because we'd have more of a mix of different ideas and tendencies. Mark Shuttleworth--like this guy, a sensitive man--took a huge leap by taking as hardcore a basis as Linux and making it warm and friendly, but no less powerful, and I guess I kind of want to honor that vision. Besides that, I love any example of "for ladies" being used as a synonym for "awesome." It's about time for it to be recognized that "for women" means more functionality, not less.

I agree with many of those points, and I think a lot of potential talent for software development is wasted by there being so few women in the field. But I'm not sure how much it would help with making programs easier to use, because it's not so much a symptom of a male mindset, but rather a programmer/developer mindset; when you've spent hundreds of hours developing a program and testing it, using it becomes almost like a second nature, no matter how archaic and cryptic the user interface might actually be. That's why programs should be tested by people that are not very advanced with computers, and I guess this has been a problem with Linux until recently; most of the Linux users have traditionally been advanced users with a lot of knowledge about the system.

But this is getting rather off-topic.

Regarding the shirts; I think they were pulled off rather quickly because people were offended by them (as seen here (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2007-August/002272.html), for example). I wonder if it would be somehow possible to get them through Cafepress or some other service like that, since there seems to be even more controversial shirt designs available at http://www.cafepress.com/buy/ubuntu?


Okay, now for my stuff. Thanks, all. Please tell me if you've got any more ideas. Do you think talking to the Marketing Team would help? I guess I could talk to Ubuntu Women, too... but, I wouldn't want to start a discussion on the merits of the shirt, I just want one :)

(Of course, I'm also tall and skinny, so it's hard to find shirts my size. Perhaps I should go with "Ubuntu - Linux for skinny chicks" ;))

You could certainly ask if they were still available somehow (perhaps they might even have them stocked if they were pulled off abruptly?), and it wouldn't hurt to find other women that wanted a shirt like that too -- I'm sure you're not the only one.

Good luck on your endeavours and I hope you'll find what you're looking for :)

Cherry Cotton
May 10th, 2008, 02:15 PM
My thought was 'You can watch people on prime time tv screwing each other under the sheets, or shooting each other in the face, but a "Linux for Ladies" T-shirt sparks controversy'
Go figure. :confused:

Yeah, we're desensitized to sex and violence, but not to ourselves.