Environmental impact of Windows

[Ozor Mox]

I was talking to someone who said they were thinking of getting a new computer because theirs is slow. They run Windows XP, and I recently formatted their machine to get a clean installation on for them. Already it's a piece of garbage, and I just asked for the specs: 2.8 Ghz processor, 510 MB RAM. That's almost as good as my Ubuntu desktop, which has been messed about with, broken, and had more software installed than you can shake a stick at, and it still flies.

I like to think I care a little about the planet and the state we are getting ourselves into. Does anyone else feel saddened by the thought of all the perfectly able and working computers and computer parts that are thrown out because of the increasing demands of Windows? I know that it's true, since a friend of mine used to work at our local tip, and frequently found dumped computers with a virus or borked Windows installation as their only fault.

For this reason I'm quite angered at Vista's absolutely ludicrous resource requirements.

[-grubby]

Well feel free to send the computer this way :D. But yah, It saddens me to see people throw out computers. It is actually how I got my current computer, I found it in a junk yard, and it had(s) the following specs:

AMD Sempron 3100+ (1.8GHZ) 64-bit
512 MB RAM
CD-RW/DVD-ROM (Has been replaced with a DVD burner)
80 GB HDD (The hard drive I found with it was toast, but they threw the whole computer away because of a hard drive, regardless, I replaced it with a different hard drive, of an 80 GB capacity).

[Wobedraggled]

My uncle-in-law had a fairly laptop that was acting up on him, so I took it cleaned it up and gave it back to him, then of course through poor usage it slows down again, he brings it to geek squad and they tell him it's broken so he throws it out.

Madness.

[aysiu]

The real problem is Windows' defaults. If you run an administrator account, you're very likely to get infected with malware and have your computer slow down to the point of being useless.

If, however, you create a limited user account and use that almost exclusively, Windows XP works just fine. Of course, there are downsides to this approach. Microsoft doesn't exactly make it easy to sudo to manage your computer. Run as... sometimes has trouble successfully installing Windows Updates or other updates (I had trouble with using it to update OpenOffice on my work computer), and there's no easy equivalent to gksudo nautilus. Never mind the fact that some programs (not Microsoft's direct fault) are designed to be run only by the administrator.

[Fedz]

Well not so sure about the whole PC but, maybe individual hardware ;)

Under Window$ my multi-card reader and more importantly the CD-RW/DVD-RW never worked but it did play CDs/DVDs but, would never write or rewrite accordingly.

Installed Ubuntu and it worked flawlessly without question from the start :D

Beggers belief about Window$ - I'll not go back - it ain't worth the hassle ... :)

[Barrucadu]

My ICT teacher said that my school throws out about 200 machines every year, because they "can't keep up with the demands of the software".
Now, these machines are very good. I'm not sure of the exact specs, but I do know that they all have 100GB hard drives, and 1GB of RAM. Those are good specs, yet another 200 of them will be thrown out and replaced before the next school year starts...

[pjkoczan]

I think that beyond the "computer waste" scenario, Windows often requires beefier machines to run well, and requires more energy and power to run similar workloads. To be fair, major Linux distros have required bigger, better machines with newer releases, though I doubt it's to the same degree, as you can still run a modern distro well on a P3 Coppermine and 256M of RAM. It won't have desktop effects, and it won't win any speed contests, but it'll run well as a light desktop or low-load server.

Video hardware and disks are some of the bigger power eaters in modern computers, so I'd imagine that using those as little as possible (good I/O caching and efficient graphics) would make for a less energy-intensive OS. Linux does both of those well (especially caching), so I'd hypothesize that Linux would be a very energy-light OS.

I've really been meaning to do some power benchmarking of different operating systems. Of course, it's difficult because the benchmarking methodology may be different across different platforms.

[SuperSon!c]

I was talking to someone who said they were thinking of getting a new computer because theirs is slow. They run Windows XP, and I recently formatted their machine to get a clean installation on for them. Already it's a piece of garbage, and I just asked for the specs: 2.8 Ghz processor, 510 MB RAM. That's almost as good as my Ubuntu desktop, which has been messed about with, broken, and had more software installed than you can shake a stick at, and it still flies.

I like to think I care a little about the planet and the state we are getting ourselves into. Does anyone else feel saddened by the thought of all the perfectly able and working computers and computer parts that are thrown out because of the increasing demands of Windows? I know that it's true, since a friend of mine used to work at our local tip, and frequently found dumped computers with a virus or borked Windows installation as their only fault.

For this reason I'm quite angered at Vista's absolutely ludicrous resource requirements.

don't blame windows, blame the idiot user. even IF they want to throw it away they know damn well they can donate it, give it away, or sell it. people are just stupid, so don't give me this windows b.s.

[aysiu]

don't blame windows, blame the idiot user. even IF they want to throw it away they know damn well they can donate it, give it away, or sell it. people are just stupid, so don't give me this windows b.s. It's more to do with Windows-using culture than the Windows operating system itself.

Some aspects of Windows-using culture: When a computer salesperson tells you you need a 2.4 GHz processor and 4 GB of RAM to surf the web and check your email, you listen! Real security isn't about user permissions, sensible password policies, data encryption, and education about social engineering; it's about running as administrator and having some CPU- and RAM-sucking anti-* programs running in the background all the time. Oh, and make sure you pay subscriptions for those anti-* programs to keep them up to date and make sure you're protected. When the computer gets too slow, reinstall. When you're tired of reinstalling, throw the computer away. Unfortunately, most Windows users will not pull away from that culture. It's not directly the fault of the software, of course, but you can't say Microsoft is doing a whole lot to counter that culture.

[keykero]

Yes, and even more troubling is the "environmental impact" of the discoveries made by the R&D departments of companies like Intel, AMD, Nvidia, et al. Damn them for advancing hardware and causing people to throw out old, less-functional hardware. Because they only invest in R&D to build computers that run evil, mean, bad Windows and certainly not for things like video editing, 3D games, or production level graphic design applications. The industry should have stopped progress at the 486 so no one would ever throw out anything, but of course evil Microsoft must have made some type of demonic deal with them to force them to do otherwise.

[SuperSon!c]

It's more to do with Windows-using culture than the Windows operating system itself.

Some aspects of Windows-using culture: When a computer salesperson tells you you need a 2.4 GHz processor and 4 GB of RAM to surf the web and check your email, you listen! Real security isn't about user permissions, sensible password policies, data encryption, and education about social engineering; it's about running as administrator and having some CPU- and RAM-sucking anti-* programs running in the background all the time. Oh, and make sure you pay subscriptions for those anti-* programs to keep them up to date and make sure you're protected. When the computer gets too slow, reinstall. When you're tired of reinstalling, throw the computer away. Unfortunately, most Windows users will not pull away from that culture. It's not directly the fault of the software, of course, but you can't say Microsoft is doing a whole lot to counter that culture.

i agree to some extent, but again, most people just don't know how to use their cranial turret and don't give a rat's *ss about the environment anyway.

[Barrucadu]

My city's council is very keen about recycling and the environment - so I thought I'd send them an email about possibly implementing a computer recycling incentive. I look forward to their reply :)

[amazingtaters]

My ICT teacher said that my school throws out about 200 machines every year, because they "can't keep up with the demands of the software".
Now, these machines are very good. I'm not sure of the exact specs, but I do know that they all have 100GB hard drives, and 1GB of RAM. Those are good specs, yet another 200 of them will be thrown out and replaced before the next school year starts...

Send one of those my way. Seriously, I'll pay for shipping if you can get ahold of one.I could really use one for the file server I'm setting up this summer for my friends at school. It'd be just excellent to have something with a decent amount of RAM and a good HDD to run the OS off of (and maybe play around with a bunch of different distros)

[bobbocanfly]

Some aspects of Windows-using culture: When the computer gets too slow, reinstall. When you're tired of reinstalling, throw the computer away.

Unfortunately most people will get their copy of Windows OEM so probably cant reinstall, or will try and cant find the CD-Key they threw out with the box the computer came in. A lot of people probably dont know you *can* actually reinstall Windows, "It just comes with the computer".

[hsweet]

I'm all for advancing hardware. That is not the issue.

The issue is companies changing stuff just to sell you what you already own. And do it again in another 2 years. Nothing works any better and you are a little poorer. I remember when a 286 would load a word processor faster than I can now. Doesn't make me a better writer.

Cutting edge is one thing, (gamers do push the thing and need better stuff) but if all you need is a basic computer that you can write on and get on the web, you already have all the hardware you ever will need.

I can set up a decent, inexpensive, reliable computer on old windows junk. For 90% of users, that is all they need.

[SuperSon!c]

My city's council is very keen about recycling and the environment - so I thought I'd send them an email about possibly implementing a computer recycling incentive. I look forward to their reply :)

nice!! i'd like to hear what they have to say.

[HangukMiguk]

Well feel free to send the computer this way :D.

I concur, I could use an extra computer or two to mess around with.

[finferflu]

I guess a lot of people cannot even differentiate between a computer and an OS. Of course that's all thanks to MS, which tries to cover any alternative (Windows = computer). Ever heard MS speaking about Windows being superior to other OSS (like Mac does, for example)? You find such information only in highly specialised sections (also called FUD-machines, by the way), surely meant for people who already know there exist alternatives.

With such mentality, when Windows lets them down, they believe the computer broke. Ignorance is bliss for MS.

[SuperSon!c]

I guess a lot of people cannot even differentiate between a computer and an OS. Of course that's all thanks to MS, which tries to cover any alternative (Windows = computer). Ever heard MS speaking about Windows being superior to other OSS (like Mac does, for example)? You find such information only in highly specialised sections (also called FUD-machines, by the way), surely meant for people who already know there exist alternatives.

With such mentality, when Windows lets them down, they believe the computer broke. Ignorance is bliss for MS.

oh brother. even if windows "lets them down" and they think it's "broken" that doesn't mean you toss it in the garbage. your average person is just plain stupid if they cannot think for themselves.

next goofy argument in 3..2..

[smoker]

in Scotland you can't just 'dump' computer equipment now, it has to be disposed of in an environmentally friendly way, by a company that can handle such equipment, most councils have recycling points that can do this, info here if interested:
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/1745440/444663/1106248/
http://www.sepa.org.uk/

if your local council (in the uk) isn't complying with environment legislation, then email the links to them.

[zcal]

It's true that computer hardware isn't easy to recycle, but new advances also bring about more efficient power usage. It's just up to developers to make use of that efficiency.

As they say, "What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away."

[finferflu]

oh brother. even if windows "lets them down" and they think it's "broken" that doesn't mean you toss it in the garbage. your average person is just plain stupid if they cannot think for themselves.

next goofy argument in 3..2..
Before calling it "goofy", try to consider the argument.
Of course people will not toss it straight away. They'll try to "fix" it in some way. But surely, thinking that Windows is the computer will most likely push them to buy a new one in a shorter time range (especially when MS convinces you that you need to upgrade here and there).

Of course your argument is valid. Ignorance is the people's fault. But MS encourages it and profits from it.

[popch]

I am an IT manager for a smallish state department. Due to local legislation, I pay the costs of recycling our computers when I buy them. The vendor has to come and fetch them when I do not need them anymore.

During some time we had to offer every old computer to local schools. They do not want them anymore. Pupils need faster machines than those we discard.

Next, we tried to sell those old boxes to our employees. Being the state, we must thoroughly wipe the disks before they leave the premises. Windows licenses are not a problem because we buy all PCs with OEM licenses, anyway. Applications are a problem. We can not give MS Office to our employees.

We can not sell those boxes anymore. Wiping the disks and re-installing Windows with all drivers takes more time and costs the taxpayer money. We then have to advise the prospective buyers where and how to get the software needed to do anything with the boxes and how to install the basest security software and so on. That takes more time.

Point is, the normal employee wants the same software as they use in the office, and they will not pay as much for the old box as it costs us to prepare them.

[Daveski]

We can not sell those boxes anymore. Wiping the disks and re-installing Windows with all drivers takes more time and costs the taxpayer money. We then have to advise the prospective buyers where and how to get the software needed to do anything with the boxes and how to install the basest security software and so on. That takes more time.

Point is, the normal employee wants the same software as they use in the office, and they will not pay as much for the old box as it costs us to prepare them.

I agree - although you could bung an Ubuntu disk in and install on the blank disk. This would only take a few minutes to tap in the required info.

You are right though that most employees and schools etc. don't actually want a 'low powered' PC. I hope that the recent surge in Linux adoption coupled with the apalling performace of Vista (even on a fairly high-spec machine) will help us to put some of this older kit back to work for someone. People, pitch in with some good ideas...

[SuperSon!c]

But MS encourages it and profits from it.

i don't agree with this one bit, but i understand where you're coming from.

[zmjjmz]

As it is, I've been taking the old computers from my Dad's work's basement and throwing Linux on them.
This company I've found has a sensible upgrade cycle. They upgrade (judging from the different ages of the computers I encounter) around once every 8 years or so, and even then they put most if not all of the old computers in the basement. Heck, I found a 1987 IBM PC in there.
And I've found that the uses of most of the computers at my school (mostly the ones that have XP installed) are basic and could be handled by one of the computers I salvaged from 1998.
It was said earlier that a school was throwing away computers en masse.
I know of _several_ school districts that, due to No Child (from a well-off school district) Left Behind, don't have enough money to buy newer computers or computers at all.
It would be great if you could <strike>beg</strike> ask your district to send them to those districts (I'm assuming you're in the US though...).
I'd be more than willing to do mass Linux installs if the school wants Linux too.
I intend on using the old computers in my blog to educate schools and children about the use of old computers with Linux in order to slow down the massive amounts of consumerism caused by computer illiteracy + Windows.

[Ozor Mox]

don't blame windows, blame the idiot user. even IF they want to throw it away they know damn well they can donate it, give it away, or sell it. people are just stupid, so don't give me this windows b.s.

Erm no, I'll continue to blame Windows. Look at the requirements for Windows Vista. They are insane. And there is no way those requirements can be justified for what it offers. Linux operating systems, by contrast, can run on virtually any PC no matter how old. Even up-to-date ones like Ubuntu run on computers that can barely handle XP. I don't think that is ok at all.

Of course I don't only blame Windows, I also blame users who don't know a thing about computers thinking that the computer and Windows are tied to each other, and also that when one internal part of the computer, including the operating system, breaks the whole thing is useless. It's not really fair to call them stupid though, there are lots of things I don't really know how they work, and just use them. I don't expect everyone to know about computers.

But then, I never said I only blame Windows, you just assumed that.

Edit: Just as a reminder, here are Vista's requirements:

# 1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor
# 1 GB of system memory
# 40 GB hard drive with at least 15 GB of available space
# Support for DirectX 9 graphics with:

* WDDM Driver
* 128 MB of graphics memory (minimum)
* Pixel Shader 2.0 in hardware
* 32 bits per pixel

15 GB disk space?!

[zmjjmz]

May I also point out that Vista does a _lot_ of hard disk activity, which means more spinning, and thus more electricity consumption, more noise, more heat, etc.

EDIT: This is also interesting: http://tuxmobil.org/ecology-howto/Ecology-HOWTO.html

[SuperSon!c]

.

erm, yeah.

that's known as advancement in technology which requires more powerful pc's - what the hell do you expect? nobody's forcing people to junk their XP box until MS no longer supports it. most of the blame is the user for being a complete ingnoramus.

[zmjjmz]

Are you trying to say that running unsupported proprietary software is a good idea?
There are _so_ many exploits and holes in Windows XP we may not know of because it's closed source, whereas Linux or FreeBSD, being open source, have thousands of developers looking at them, and may be left without any exploits at all.

[Ozor Mox]

erm, yeah.

that's known as advancement in technology which requires more powerful pc's - what the hell do you expect? nobody's forcing people to junk their XP box until MS no longer supports it. most of the blame is the user for being a complete ingnoramus.

No see, I get that software advances and puts a greater demand on hardware, but I have used Vista and see no reason why it should use those kind of resources. 15 GB of hard disk space? For what could that possibly be needed? Ubuntu uses under 3 GB, and XP only used about the same I think. Ubuntu can run its graphical effects on old computers, and they are much better than Vista's. Vista needs 1 GB of RAM and recommends a 128 MB graphics card.

Your right, the users are at fault. This is a general comment about the appalling wastage of resources that occurs when someone throws a computer out. Yes, people should recycle or sell them, but I know for a fact that plenty of perfectly good PCs get thrown out as well.

[SuperSon!c]

oh, i agree that plenty of good ones get thrown out, but people (not lately though) spend money like it grows on trees.

as far as space taken by the OS, yeah, it's a fat *******, but i never pay attention to how much space an OS takes when storage is cheap as hell.

[Ender305]

I got Vista business when I first got my laptop and on top of the 15 gigs for the os, Lenovo had kindly piled on about 30gigs of cpu and memory sucking crap like a program that parks the disk head whenever the laptop moves, try watching a movie with that running!

[MasterNetra]

The only real good thing i've heard about Vista is that it can use the USB drives as ram. It be cool if Ubuntu/Kubuntu could. Add more live to those older USB using PCs.

[zmjjmz]

Ubuntu can, but it's not RAM, it's more like cache.
RAM doesn't make much sense anyways considering the speed of most USB ports.

[tamoneya]

My ICT teacher said that my school throws out about 200 machines every year, because they "can't keep up with the demands of the software".
Now, these machines are very good. I'm not sure of the exact specs, but I do know that they all have 100GB hard drives, and 1GB of RAM. Those are good specs, yet another 200 of them will be thrown out and replaced before the next school year starts...

It would be cool if we could start some recycling program through the Ubuntu Forums. Barrucadu and many people like him obviously have no use for 200 computers. If there was a sticky thread or a sub forum for people like barrucadu to post these unclaimed computers other forum members could pay the shipping and it would keep them out of landfills.

[init1]

My ICT teacher said that my school throws out about 200 machines every year, because they "can't keep up with the demands of the software".
Now, these machines are very good. I'm not sure of the exact specs, but I do know that they all have 100GB hard drives, and 1GB of RAM. Those are good specs, yet another 200 of them will be thrown out and replaced before the next school year starts...
What? Just thrown away!? Surely they could be donated somewhere at least.

[zmjjmz]

I need enough money to pay for the shipping first.