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samjh
May 2nd, 2008, 12:36 AM
Did a bit of idle research today about the demand for various programming language skills in the job market. I visited www.seekit.com.au which is a very popular IT job site for the Australian/New Zealand market and did some searches for programming languages, counting the number of jobs hit for each language.

Here's the result (many of the advertisements list multiple languages):

Java = 2941
C# = 2169
C = 1168
C++ = 1146
VB.NET = 725
PHP = 714
Perl = 638
Python = 204
COBOL = 125
Delphi = 124
Ruby = 108
Ada = 33
Pascal = 9
Fortran = 4
Lua = 1

Operating systems:

Windows = 3799
Unix = 2458
Linux = 1690
Solaris = 675
Apple/Macintosh/MacOS = 117
BSD = 42

LaRoza
May 2nd, 2008, 12:51 AM
Operating systems:

Windows = 3799
Unix = 2458
Linux = 1690
Solaris = 675
Apple/Macintosh/MacOS = 117
BSD = 42

Mac OS X is a Unix, as is Solaris. BSD and Linux are Unix like. What exactly is "Unix" in the above list?

scragar
May 2nd, 2008, 12:54 AM
I think that it means true unix, instead of "unix like"(which linux, BSD and macOS all are). Remember, unix was closed source, so people copied it without making a true copy, thus the 'like' section.



Actualy, there's no way that many people are still using unix for anything, intresting.

LaRoza
May 2nd, 2008, 01:09 AM
I think that it means true unix, instead of "unix like"(which linux, BSD and macOS all are). Remember, unix was closed source, so people copied it without making a true copy, thus the 'like' section.



Actualy, there's no way that many people are still using unix for anything, intresting.

Mac OS and Solaris are Unix. They are certified. They are UNIX®


As of 2007, the owner of the trademark UNIX® is The Open Group, an industry standards consortium. Only systems fully compliant with and certified to the Single UNIX Specification qualify as "UNIX®" (others are called "Unix system-like" or "Unix-like").

Unix refers to this certification. Mac OS X and Solaris are certified. Linux and BSD aren't. The stats differentiate between "Unix" and two Unix's and two Unix-like systems. So what exactly is this "Unix".

RIchard James13
May 2nd, 2008, 01:16 AM
Actualy, there's no way that many people are still using unix for anything, intresting.

There are many legacy systems based on Unix. Last week the NAB announced it will upgrade all its ATM's to Windows XP. Generally the larger the buisness the more likely they will be using an older operating system. Because the core software that runs their business runs on that OS, and it costs a lot of money to upgrade. A lot of Windows installs use Terminal software that hooks into legacy mainframe or Unix systems. I know of one multi-national that runs on SCO Unix.

pmasiar
May 2nd, 2008, 02:16 AM
I think that it means true unix, instead of "unix like"(which linux, BSD and macOS all are). Remember, unix was closed source, so people copied it without making a true copy, thus the 'like' section.

Actualy, there's no way that many people are still using unix for anything, intresting.

You may not 'remember' it but I do :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix was under BSD license since mid 80ies. And ATT was selling sources even before that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posix is ISO standard since 85.

And different versions of Unix are used from mobile phones to mainframes. Including Google supercluster. Many of those need be reliable, so cannot have BSOD, or more recently RSOD. Just say no to Windows. :-)

scragar
May 2nd, 2008, 02:36 AM
You may not 'remember' it but I do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix was under BSD license since mid 80ies. And ATT was selling sources even before that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posix is ISO standard since 85.

And different versions of Unix are used from mobile phones to mainframes. Including Google supercluster. Many of those need be reliable, so cannot have BSOD, or more recently RSOD. Just say no to Windows.

Actualy, I wasn't born till 86, so I was a littl young to remember that stuff. :P

imdano
May 2nd, 2008, 03:43 AM
What exactly is "Unix" in the above list?Job descriptions use the word Unix pretty liberally, usually they're just looking for experience with anything Unix-like, though sometimes they actually want people familiar with good old legacy Unix systems. (I know one very large software company I interned at still had some machines around running Unix that they used for testing.)

pmasiar
May 2nd, 2008, 04:15 AM
Actualy, I wasn't born till 86, so I was a littl young to remember that stuff. :P

Exactly. So you don't know the history, but lack of facts do not prevent you from having good strong gut opinion about Unix.

How inspiring.

Just FYI: in 60ies and 70ies, before PC, it was common to share source code, and having access to sources of most OS utilities. User conferences released yearly tapes with all sorts of code, including games. It was before GPL - code was public domain and nobody was worried about it. ATT was selling tape with sources on Unix to universities for $100. DARPA was also about sharing the code.

pmasiar
May 2nd, 2008, 04:23 AM
Back to topic: it is common knowledge that 83% of statistics on internet is bogus.

Regarding Python, no real Python hacker even bothers looking job boards: Python community has job mailing list, and all people 'in the know' post there. So if Python job is not posted on the list, company lacks understanding of the community, and it is red flag against working there.

Job boards like that are for enterprisey 'commodity jobs', where coder is just replaceable cog in coding factory with commodity skills - perfect fit for Java or C#.

Kadrus
May 2nd, 2008, 02:13 PM
huh?weird..thought C++ will be more used than C or C#..guess i was mistaken..also surprised at Python stats..thought it wll be a lot more..

LaRoza
May 2nd, 2008, 03:46 PM
huh?weird..thought C++ will be more used than C or C#..guess i was mistaken..also surprised at Python stats..thought it wll be a lot more..

Python jobs are not normally obtained that way, they have their own mailing list.

Also, Fortran jobs are probably going to be on super computers or something. If you are wanting a job doing that, you don't look in the same place as the VB.NET people.

thefestival
May 3rd, 2008, 04:06 AM
Does noone require assembly programmers anymore?

I find this hard to believe seeing as embedded systems is on the rise.

LaRoza
May 3rd, 2008, 04:14 AM
Does noone require assembly programmers anymore?

I find this hard to believe seeing as embedded systems is on the rise.

Embedded systems use C, Forth, Java, etc more I think.

Remember what they say about statistics. The OP just had a small sampling.

pmasiar
May 3rd, 2008, 05:02 AM
Does noone require assembly programmers anymore?

I find this hard to believe seeing as embedded systems is on the rise.

1) As I said before, generic job site is for commodity jobs. Experts do not waste time there.

2) ASM is not as widely used as 10 years ago: C is almost as effective, but more productive, and cross-platform, so ASM is becoming even more niche.

New hot embedded language is Google's Android: reimplemented Java, done right :-)

LaRoza
May 3rd, 2008, 06:29 AM
New hot embedded language is Google's Android: reimplemented Java, done right :-)

Neat. Thanks.

I have a feeling that google is about to take over the world. Not a bad thing, given the circumstances.

pmasiar
May 4th, 2008, 01:25 AM
You mean comparing company's mottos?

Google: 'Don't be evil'
MSFT: 'MWAHAHAHA!'

:-)

thefestival
May 4th, 2008, 01:44 AM
2) ASM is not as widely used as 10 years ago: C is almost as effective, but more productive, and cross-platform, so ASM is becoming even more niche.


Good thing I'm (trying) to learn C.

Another thing is there such a thing as a market for scripting? Ie, bash/ awk scripting?

samjh
May 4th, 2008, 01:49 AM
Another thing is there such a thing as a market for scripting? Ie, bash/ awk scripting?

Most system admin jobs require some scripting skills, especially BASH, Perl, and Python.

Some software engineering jobs also value scripting skills. For example, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (similar to UK's MI5), recruit software engineers with Perl and Python skills - among other languages.

LaRoza
May 4th, 2008, 01:50 AM
Another thing is there such a thing as a market for scripting? Ie, bash/ awk scripting?

One doesn't normally get hired to write shell scripts, but shell scripts and *nix tools are essential for anyone administrating *nix systems.

pmasiar
May 4th, 2008, 03:24 AM
shell scripts and *nix tools are essential for anyone administrating *nix systems.

Not only *nix: Linux too, and it does not match your pattern. Better pattern is *n?x :-)

LaRoza
May 4th, 2008, 03:54 AM
Not only *nix: Linux too, and it does not match your pattern. Better pattern is *n?x :-)

Not sure whether to play along, or get serious. Got serious...



Some add a wildcard character to the name to make a euphemistic abbreviation like “Un*x” or “*nix” (the latter pronounced as "asternix", a play on the asterisk used for the wildcard), since Unix-like systems often have Unix-like names such as AIX, HP-UX, IRIX, Linux, Minix, Ultrix, and Xenix. These patterns do not literally match many system names, but are still generally recognized to refer to any UNIX descendant system, even those with completely dissimilar names such as Solaris, FreeBSD or Mac OS X. This is still contrary to Open Group guidelines.

slavik
May 4th, 2008, 05:15 AM
I can say only one thing about such statistics: If you are very good, they do not affect you (unless the technology is not in use at all anymore).

Right now, if you are very good at COBOL, I doubt you would have trouble getting a job. Same goes for every language that there are programs written in that are still used.

It is also not very 'good' to just list languages, because different languages are used for different things and as a result a whole market for a group of languages might be over saturated thus showing a decrease in the need of the language as compared with a language where there is a high demand for what the language is used for.

For example, any job that has the words "unix/linux administrator" will always say something along the lines of "shell scripting, perl/python/ruby" I am also willing to bet that these 3 language see more demand in unix/linux administration than in web development (yes, even ruby). Don't forget that whoever lists languages might intend to list a language but leaves it out.

samjh
May 4th, 2008, 07:44 AM
As I said: idle research. Not "thorough research", not "serious research".

It might have interested some people who were looking for programming jobs. I can say confidently that you are unlikely to find programming jobs outside of the US or Europe in specialist mailing lists. For most mere mortals, the first place for jobs is a classified listing in a newspaper, a careers website, or the local Yellow Pages phone book. More savvy people will look at industry journals and contacts.

The stats I posted is not the be-all-end-all of programming jobs. One would have to be ridiculously naive to think that. However it is a reasonably accurate indication of the state of the IT job market with regards to the skills employers are looking for. Commodities they may be, but even the most expert professionals can be expendable commodities.

LaRoza
May 4th, 2008, 08:01 AM
It might have interested some people who were looking for programming jobs. I can say confidently that you are unlikely to find programming jobs outside of the US or Europe in specialist mailing lists. For most mere mortals, the first place for jobs is a classified listing in a newspaper, a careers website, or the local Yellow Pages phone book. More savvy people will look at industry journals and contacts.


For mere mortals, the first place to look for jobs is through social networking. That is where almost every job is found.

samjh
May 4th, 2008, 08:08 AM
I included "contacts" for more savvy people.

LaRoza
May 4th, 2008, 08:09 AM
I included "contacts" for more savvy people.

What about those that wear glasses?

(Oh no, I am doing puns on the forum. I should go to bed...)

samjh
May 4th, 2008, 08:12 AM
What about those that wear glasses?

(Oh no, I am doing puns on the forum. I should go to bed...)

I get the impression you're on here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Although I do admire your dedication as a moderator, surely some sunlight and sleep (not to mention food) is necessary for sustaining your form of life? :p

LaRoza
May 4th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I get the impression you're on here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Although I do admire your dedication as a moderator, surely some sunlight and sleep (not to mention food) is necessary for sustaining your form of life? :p

I am on here for long periods of time, but not always continious. My main focus is on school/work at the moment, my secondary focus is on my System Restore program (I just resumed it) and the forums are just for killing time.

When school starts up and my schedule gets tighter, I will be on for less time.