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JAPrufrock
April 28th, 2008, 10:01 PM
I remember the good old days when somewhat controversial topics were still allowed in CC threads, which made for great discussions. It seems to me that this particular forum is being moderated to death. Is it just my opinion, or do other members agree that autocratic moderators are destroying the spirit of Community Cafe?

LaRoza
April 28th, 2008, 10:17 PM
I remember the good old days when somewhat controversial topics were still allowed in CC threads, which made for great discussions. It seems to me that this particular forum is being moderated to death. Is it just my opinion, or do other members agree that autocratic moderators are destroying the spirit of Community Cafe?

I think you want the "Backyard" or rather, OMG pInK pOnIeS.

That is where all the "controversial" and interesting things are.

I personally don't move thread there though, except on rare occasions.

I also like the OPP better than the Cafe.

Can I be an autocratic moderator too?

Moving thread to OPP:
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0106.gif

acelin
April 28th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Yeah I remember there being very long controversial threads at one point...

K.Mandla
April 29th, 2008, 01:15 AM
I think you want the "Backyard" or rather, OMG pInK pOnIeS.

That is where all the "controversial" and interesting things are.
+1.

I personally don't move thread there though, except on rare occasions.
I do. Rather frequently, so the uninterestingness of the Cafe might be my fault. The 'Cafe is Linux-oriented news and discussion, but not support requests or testimonials, etc.

OMG Pink Ponies is for anything off-topic that falls outside the 'Cafe, such as the color pink. :)

Tux Aubrey
April 29th, 2008, 03:16 AM
I know what you mean about the cafe loosing its appeal. I think that separating the non-support chat into several sub-forums removed a lot of interaction. The change in culture is noticable.

I don't think it can just be put down to moderation, although the fact that several long-time members are no longer with us (or have been neutered - yes, chucky, I'm looking at you) is one factor in the change in tone.

Since I joined two years ago, the growth in forum traffic has been phenomenal - so many members, spread across so many cultures with a widely different levels of english-skills, makes the free-flow of ideas, opinions and, especially, humor, sarcasm and irony, increasingly difficult.

Despite the fact that I lament the passing of a (short) era, and have objected strongly to some recent decisions, I think the mods are doing it tough and should be supported.

I wonder though, whether it is sustainable. This latest release has again flooded the forums with support requests from new users who use the forums as if they were paying for instant support. There seems to be an increase in trolls and plain old rudeness too. Just coping with that would be more than enough for most community-based support services, let alone keeping the old members entertained and happy.

I just hope that the mods and Admins have a padded room somewhere or a punching bag.

I actually can't see the attraction in being an unpaid mod in these circumstances and I really wonder how long it can go on before even the most masochistic of them throw in the towel.

(idea: if I didn't think I would get an infraction for it, I'd start a poll on who is the most masochistic mod)

LaRoza
April 29th, 2008, 03:22 AM
+1.

I do. Rather frequently, so the uninterestingness of the Cafe might be my fault. The 'Cafe is Linux-oriented news and discussion, but not support requests or testimonials, etc.

OMG Pink Ponies is for anything off-topic that falls outside the 'Cafe, such as the color pink. :)

I know you do :-) I am there and it is all nice and quiet and suddenly 50 threads show up.



I wonder though, whether it is sustainable. This latest release has again flooded the forums with support requests from new users who use the forums as if they were paying for instant support. There seems to be an increase in trolls and plain old rudeness too. Just coping with that would be more than enough for most community-based support services, let alone keeping the old members entertained and happy.

I just hope that the mods and Admins have a padded room somewhere or a punching bag.

I actually can't see the attraction in being an unpaid mod in these circumstances and I really wonder how long it can go on before even the most masochistic of them throw in the towel.

(idea: if I didn't think I would get an infraction for it, I'd start a poll on who is the most masochistic mod)

It happens every release, which is why they recruit right before releases.

We do. It is the sticky in the Jail that no one can see, it is the staff room where we post things that are better left un posted (not really, but you never know)

Well, you can start a poll, but since there are only 10 options, you won't be able to include everyone.

I personally grant you permission to start a poll to see who is the most masochistic. If it gets out of hand, I will silently move it where it can do no harm.

Have fun choosing the mods for the poll. For a list of mods who have been online recently, see the "Moderators" social group.

myusername
April 29th, 2008, 03:55 AM
maybe we should just merge the omg pink ponies and the cafe

click4851
May 11th, 2008, 08:51 AM
in my opinion, and again its just mine....there is nothing to merge. Swing by the new backyard....check out the paint drying and the grass growing....yawn. Its the community cafe with bad hair.

But hey "you" got what you wanted, an easier to manage "backyard" ......for those that remain.

SuperSon!c
May 11th, 2008, 11:28 AM
in my opinion, and again its just mine....there is nothing to merge. Swing by the new backyard....check out the paint drying and the grass growing....yawn. Its the community cafe with bad hair.

But hey "you" got what you wanted, an easier to manage "backyard" ......for those that remain.

nail on head. snoozefest there and trying to lighten things up with the name change and font colour is ridiculous. oh well.

Tundro Walker
May 11th, 2008, 04:05 PM
I think it's partly boring, because old topics keep getting re-posted, year after year. Whenever a new Ubuntu release comes out, new folks show up, and while we love new folks, they think since everything is new to them, it must be new to everyone else. So, they start re-posting all the old Linux/Microsoft jokes, slams, news articles, etc which have already been posted in previous years.

Or, they'll bring up the same old "concerns", like how they think Ubuntu should follow a different release schedule, or how Ubuntu should change it's color theme to something other than browns, or how the forums are over-moderated. :)

Tundro Walker
May 11th, 2008, 04:19 PM
in my opinion, and again its just mine....there is nothing to merge. Swing by the new backyard....check out the paint drying and the grass growing....yawn. Its the community cafe with bad hair.

Well, this is still a Linux forum, and a more friendly & mature one than some of the other distros. The backyard here was more for hot-button topics, like religion, gun control, politics, light-hearted ethnocentrism / national elitism (IE: "You yanks suck! Brits are the best!"), world issues (poverty, war, capitalism), etc.

If you're expecting Caturdays, or "hot naked girl threads", or tranny porn threads, or flame-war-threads-for-no-reason-other-than-seeing-who-can-be-the-biggest-a**hole, or whatever, you should probably go get that fix at 4chan, /b/, and other forums which encourage that stuff.

Then again, I hardly hang out in the backyard, because I can't stand the moronic arguments, so what the heck do I know.

chucky chuckaluck
May 11th, 2008, 04:50 PM
I don't think it can just be put down to moderation, although the fact that several long-time members are no longer with us (or have been neutered - yes, chucky, I'm looking at you) is one factor in the change in tone.


it's true. i no longer chase the other puppies around, but it was either reform or get banned. i would have opted for the latter, but i have a lot of friends (of the internet variety) here that i can still enjoy posting with.

success usually means more heavily censored forums (i've even seen this in the goon filled forums of sherdog and ironlife). as a forum gains in success and memborship, it usually becomes more self conscious and concerned about its image. this place is no different.

SuperSon!c
May 11th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Then again, I hardly hang out in the backyard, because I can't stand the moronic arguments, so what the heck do I know.

yes, everyone that has a debate is a moron in the backyard. that's a bit much, innit.

Black Mage
May 11th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Honeslty,in the cafe I would rather see more support for topics that have nothing to do with computers at all. I've seen the Ubuntu vs Windows discussion to many times.

And for support, I use to recieve better support in the cafe than any other place on other forum, until it started being moderated.

LaRoza
May 11th, 2008, 05:55 PM
If you're expecting Caturdays, or "hot naked girl threads", or tranny porn threads, or flame-war-threads-for-no-reason-other-than-seeing-who-can-be-the-biggest-a**hole, or whatever, you should probably go get that fix at 4chan, /b/, and other forums which encourage that stuff.

Then again, I hardly hang out in the backyard, because I can't stand the moronic arguments, so what the heck do I know.

We have those types of threads in a special forum, called "The Jail".

I prefer the OPP over the Cafe. Yes, it has its share of pointless threads, but not all are like that.


yes, everyone that has a debate is a moron in the backyard. that's a bit much, innit.

/me is moron?


Honeslty,in the cafe I would rather see more support for topics that have nothing to do with computers at all. I've seen the Ubuntu vs Windows discussion to many times.

And for support, I use to recieve better support in the cafe than any other place on other forum, until it started being moderated.

There is nothing stopping anyone from asking for support. You get a lot of that here, people wanting help with camera's and such. We can't control what is posted.

It was always moderated. If threads get moved, they are moved to where they belong. Although you could have your fstab troubles fixed in the Cafe, it is not the place for it.

kevdog
May 11th, 2008, 05:57 PM
He used the word "AUTOCRATIC" -- wow!

Phil Airtime
May 11th, 2008, 11:13 PM
The dullest thing about this place is the Microsoft stuff. How many times do we need to see a topic about "Winblowzz" or "Micro$haft SUCKS!!!"? It's boring and immature. Linux is good enough to stand on its own two feet without dullards taking a pop at its rivals. It makes the community look fanboyish.

click4851
May 12th, 2008, 02:43 AM
the dullest really...have you read this..

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=789090

I submit this as exhibit A: The death of a forum.

SuperSon!c
May 12th, 2008, 02:47 AM
http://www.users.on.net/~golf96/trucknomnom.jpg

SomeGuyDude
May 12th, 2008, 02:47 AM
I'd love to see the "Community Cafe" be separated from "General Linux chatter".

It'd also be nice if the censorship was a little looser. I always feel like I have to walk on eggshells.

Tundro Walker
May 12th, 2008, 05:22 AM
yes, everyone that has a debate is a moron in the backyard. that's a bit much, innit.

Wow, of all people, I didn't think you'd be gullible enough to fall for my "broad generalization based on limited example" social engineered baiting there, SuperSon!c. :)

"Will you people keep it down! I'm trying to study!"

"'You People'!? Who are you calling 'You People'?!"

:lolflag:

SomeGuyDude
May 12th, 2008, 06:58 AM
I do agree that the backyard is pretty insufferable, though. I took a whack at it, being a heavy reader in both politics and religion, but no dice.

What this board needs is a non-Linux general ******** board.

SuperSon!c
May 12th, 2008, 09:40 AM
stuff

rofl, social engineered.

regomodo
May 12th, 2008, 12:38 PM
of late, Yes. However, good threads come up at some point all the time. Just the time in between can become very boring with the same old threads (but new).

frenchn00b
May 12th, 2008, 12:43 PM
I remember the good old days when somewhat controversial topics were still allowed in CC threads, which made for great discussions. It seems to me that this particular forum is being moderated to death. Is it just my opinion, or do other members agree that autocratic moderators are destroying the spirit of Community Cafe?

I confirm it's getting very dull. Also they are allowing ... very few : good and bad indeed.

ynnhoj
May 12th, 2008, 12:53 PM
I remember the good old days when somewhat controversial topics were still allowed in CC threads, which made for great discussions. It seems to me that this particular forum is being moderated to death. Is it just my opinion, or do other members agree that autocratic moderators are destroying the spirit of Community Cafe?
as others have mentioned, there is a place for the somewhat controversial topics; if you'd like to partake in those discussions, just make sure you read that forum :) anyway, discussions can be interesting and thought provoking without having to be controversial.

when reading the cafe, i tend to find the threads that have nothing to do with linux/computers more interesting to read--sure i'm a computer nerd, but i can only handle so much--so it would be nice if there were a distinction between off-topic/general discussions (ie: the guitar thread, the thread about vespas and lambrettas, etc) and general ubuntu/linux discussions.

JAPrufrock
May 12th, 2008, 07:47 PM
I'd love to see the "Community Cafe" be separated from "General Linux chatter".

It'd also be nice if the censorship was a little looser. I always feel like I have to walk on eggshells.

I agree, which is one of the reasons why I started this thread. I once started a thread with a link to an article about Ubuntu and XP/Vista- their differences and the future of both. However, it was shunted over to "Other OS Talk" even though the article was mostly about Ubuntu. Since there are many more visitors to Community Cafe than there are to "Other OS talk", many fewer people got to read the article, which was too bad because it was very interesting. This is one of the reasons why I think that moderators should try not to be "too quick on the trigger finger" when deciding about moving threads.

LaRoza
May 12th, 2008, 07:48 PM
It'd also be nice if the censorship was a little looser. I always feel like I have to walk on eggshells.

There is no censorship, there is only the UF CoC which everyone agreed to follow. It is enforced for various reasons, but its enforcement is to be expected because everyone agreed to follow it.

Phil Airtime
May 12th, 2008, 10:02 PM
There is no censorship, there is only the UF CoC which everyone agreed to follow. It is enforced for various reasons, but its enforcement is to be expected because everyone agreed to follow it.

I've never looked at the Code of Conduct until now. At first glance, it has a shade of the "tl;dr" about it...! Why does it need to be such a lengthy wall of text? Shouldn't it be simplified, particularly in the light of members whose English might not be up to reading such immense passages?

cardinals_fan
May 12th, 2008, 10:10 PM
The Café is getting dull, but not because of over-moderation. There are just too many of the same threads coming up over and over again because "people" can't learn to search (there, I can generalize too :) ).

Actually, I like the Recurring Discussions section. It's the only place for a good old-fashioned flamewar ;)

LaRoza
May 12th, 2008, 10:14 PM
I've never looked at the Code of Conduct until now. At first glance, it has a shade of the "tl;dr" about it...! Why does it need to be such a lengthy wall of text? Shouldn't it be simplified, particularly in the light of members whose English might not be up to reading such immense passages?

It is long for a reason. People throw fits over things that are moderated when it is explicitly stated as being against the CoC. Imagine how they feel if it were vague?

The first point, in bold, sums it up:


1. Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.

SuperSon!c
May 12th, 2008, 10:17 PM
kindness is fine. gentleness? heh.

click4851
May 12th, 2008, 10:32 PM
I disagree with the comment about the lack censorship....again just my opinion, but saying "there is no censorship, there is only the CoC..." is abit to lazy/naive isn't it? Its abit like saying there is no police brutality, there is just the law. What world does that make sense in. Whats of more concern the idea that it doesn't exist, or the idea of having to deal with it?

LaRoza
May 12th, 2008, 10:37 PM
I disagree with the comment about the lack censorship....again just my opinion, but saying "there is no censorship, there is only the CoC..." is abit to lazy/naive isn't it? Its abit like saying there is no police brutality, there is just the law. What world does that make sense in. Whats of more concern the idea that it doesn't exist, or the idea of having to deal with it?

You make it sound like staff do their moderation based on personal opinion.

If you have a real reason to compare my statement to police brutality, then state the reason. Otherwise, be more respectful.

To those that are complaining about "censorship", the only things that are editted out or deleted are things that go against the CoC. If you want, we can leave all the spam and flames for you to sift through (actually, we can't, but if we did...)

Redrazor39
May 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM
I always thought the cafe was for light discussion of anything off topic :(

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 12:12 AM
You make it sound like staff do their moderation based on personal opinion.

If you have a real reason to compare my statement to police brutality, then state the reason. Otherwise, be more respectful.

To those that are complaining about "censorship", the only things that are editted out or deleted are things that go against the CoC. If you want, we can leave all the spam and flames for you to sift through (actually, we can't, but if we did...)

Censorship by moderator choice or by statute is censorship regardless. If I type *** and it shows up as those nice little stars there, I have been censored, don't pretty it up by claiming "there is no censorship, just the Code of Conduct".

And JAP, what I meant was I'm tired of threads in the CC things like "why Ubuntu is better than XP" or "List of features for Ibex" or "What's your favorite file manager?"

As it is, the Cafe is general Linux talk, and the former Backyard was for religious or political flame-fests. Where are the threads about favorite movies? Do you have an XBL tag? What kind of pets do you have? We've got a few in here like "what are you listening to?" but I'd like more general crap and less repetitive Linux rambling.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 12:15 AM
Censorship by moderator choice or by statute is censorship regardless. If I type *** and it shows up as those nice little stars there, I have been censored, don't pretty it up by claiming "there is no censorship, just the Code of Conduct".


So the issue is the automatic censorship of words that aren't supposed to be used on this forum? If this is on par with police brutality, I don't know what to say.

p_quarles
May 13th, 2008, 12:22 AM
Yes, it's censorship. End of story. This is a privately-owned web site which gives users conditional privileges. The censorship is there for good reason, and it has nothing to do with oppressing you or denying your right to freedom of expression. If you feel the need to talk about topics that are not allowed on UF.org, or to talk about allowed topics without "walking on eggshells" as someone put it, you are more than free and welcome to do so elsewhere.

Those complaining about the rules to which they agreed may have, I feel, a false sense of entitlement.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 12:23 AM
Yes, it's censorship. End of story.

I thought they were referring to deliberate censorship by staff. Like me editting out all pro-Firefox threads, and banning all the Java users.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 12:26 AM
So the issue is the automatic censorship of words that aren't supposed to be used on this forum? If this is on par with police brutality, I don't know what to say.

When did I say anything about police brutality? Point me to where I wrote those words, please.

What I mean is I'd like a place where I don't have to say "well I kicked his gosh-darn booty for having inappropriate relations with my significant other" and such things. I'm an adult and a lot of people here are too. I hate having to be extra careful for the benefit of the children and the prudish.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 12:29 AM
When did I say anything about police brutality? Point me to where I wrote those words, please.

What I mean is I'd like a place where I don't have to say "well I kicked his gosh-darn booty for having inappropriate relations with my significant other" and such things. I'm an adult and a lot of people here are too. I hate having to be extra careful for the benefit of the children and the prudish.

I am referring to the spirit of the thread, it was mentioned earlier.

That kind of talk isn't suitable for an international Ubuntu Linux support forum now is it?

Perhaps you would like to get such things out of your system, and I do hope you are careful where you do it.

SuperSon!c
May 13th, 2008, 12:29 AM
When did I say anything about police brutality? Point me to where I wrote those words, please.

What I mean is I'd like a place where I don't have to say "well I kicked his gosh-darn booty for having inappropriate relations with my significant other" and such things. I'm an adult and a lot of people here are too. I hate having to be extra careful for the benefit of the children and the prudish.

what is your XBL tag? COD4 anybody?

p_quarles
May 13th, 2008, 12:31 AM
What I mean is I'd like a place where I don't have to say "well I kicked his gosh-darn booty for having inappropriate relations with my significant other" and such things.
Yes, it's very difficult to find places on the internet where such things can be said with impunity, isn't it?


I'm an adult and a lot of people here are too. I hate having to be extra careful for the benefit of the children and the prudish.
Being able to modulate your tone and level of politeness in accordance with varying situations is a skill that many adults find highly useful.

SuperSon!c
May 13th, 2008, 12:31 AM
I am referring to the spirit of the thread, it was mentioned earlier.

That kind of talk isn't suitable for an international Ubuntu Linux support forum now is it?

Perhaps you would like to get such things out of your system, and I do hope you are careful where you do it.

be cool if the backyard went back to being the backyard and it was an 18 or over area. not saying you can let loose with cusswords and such, but christ, that pink crap and ponies is pretty damn gay.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 12:35 AM
The water cooler of UbuntuForums, a place to discuss pretty much anything (within reason). You will also find our resolution center, forum council agenda and much more.

Use this analogy people. Pretend you are at your workplace (if you have one) and there is a break room with a water cooler. People can talk about certain things not about work (new car, cameras, movies, etc) but I highly doubt you'd be popular with your workplace if you started discussing your very personal details, possibly illegal activities and other not safe for work topics.


be cool if the backyard went back to being the backyard and it was an 18 or over area. not saying you can let loose with cusswords and such, but christ, that pink crap and ponies is pretty damn gay.

Some people think the Cafe and OPP are useless and should go away. I think they are good. For what you are saying, a totally adult area, I can't really support for this forum. This is the official Ubuntu forum. If this forum were totally private, I would personally think that is a pretty good idea. (This is just my opinion as if it means anything)

saulgoode
May 13th, 2008, 12:38 AM
Those complaining about the rules to which they agreed may have, I feel, a false sense of entitlement.

Rephrasing a comment from Richard Stallman:

"A forum can either deserve respect or demand it, but not both."

SuperSon!c
May 13th, 2008, 12:38 AM
@laroza: yeah, that's understandable, was only wishful thinking ;)

click4851
May 13th, 2008, 12:52 AM
lets be very clear ....it was I ....and I'm going to assume everyone is familiar with the word "analogy". It was I who introduced the the analogy "police brutality and law enforcement" and it was done with as much respect and in the same vein as the aforementioned "censorship/CoC" was made. Any offense taken is unfornate, but perception only. Regardless pick a different analogy my comment stands. At least p_quarles is honest...actively or passively it exists.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 12:54 AM
It was I who introduced the the analogy "police brutality and law enforcement" and it was done with as much respect and in the same vein as the aforementioned "censorship/CoC" was made.


Perhaps I felt a double insult because I am a staff member and a Criminal Justice major. I am sure you didn't mean any insult.



Any offense taken is unfornate, but perception only. Regardless pick a different analogy my comment stands. At least P_Charles is honest...actively or passively it exists.

I misunderstood what "censorship" was referring to. It didn't leap to my mind that ******* automatic censor, as I never type those words on the forum and don't think about it.

cardinals_fan
May 13th, 2008, 01:03 AM
Rephrasing a comment from Richard Stallman:

"A forum can either deserve respect or demand it, but not both."
About the only quote of his that I've heard which I agree with 100%.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 01:06 AM
Yes, it's very difficult to find places on the internet where such things can be said with impunity, isn't it?

If I want a forum where I can act juvenile, I'll go back to Something Awful. What I'm referring to is the ability to speak like an adult, and that includes using a naughty word now and again or talking about things that are not G-Rated. I like the community here, it would rather nice to be allowed to speak frankly with them.


Being able to modulate your tone and level of politeness in accordance with varying situations is a skill that many adults find highly useful.

Your statement has more condescension than genuine advice, but I'll respond to it as though it weren't coming out of your rectum anyway.

It would mean something if you said this to me in the context of, oh, a professional workplace or a church. Maybe you've not noticed, but this is what we in the biz call a "message board", where we can make idle banter about that which is on our minds. Once in a while, I would like to have conversations with the fine gents here using more natural language.

But please, continue on in being a holier than thou toolbox. It's quite attractive and I'm sure the lady-folk love it.

p_quarles
May 13th, 2008, 01:07 AM
I misunderstood what "censorship" was referring to. It didn't leap to my mind that ******* automatic censor, as I never type those words on the forum and don't think about it.
Any type of topic filtering can (and should) be defined as censorship. I mean, talking about illegal activity, insulting people, hate speech: these are all protected forms of speech in (e.g.) the U.S. Constitution. People get itchy when the word "censorship" is thrown around, but the fact of the matter is that it's very common to require self-censorship as a term of use for a privately-held resource. The idea of protected speech is to protect you from prosecution, not from being thrown out of a restaurant/message board/someone's home.

There are certainly instances where censorship can have a chilling effect, and there are communities where limits on speech would be completely inappropriate. For a technical support forum, though, the charge of "censorship" in regard to curse words, flamewars and piracy is just stating the obvious.

chucky chuckaluck
May 13th, 2008, 01:13 AM
It would mean something if you said this to me in the context of, oh, a professional workplace or a church. Maybe you've not noticed, but this is what we in the biz call a "message board", where we can make idle banter about that which is on our minds.

well, this place has been trying to elevate itself to the level of a professional workplace, or church. it's neither, yet, but by the grace of god, and professionals everywhere, it may be one day.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 01:17 AM
well, this place has been trying to elevate itself to the level of a professional workplace, or church. it's neither, yet, but by the grace of god, and professionals everywhere, it may be one day.

In the support areas, that's PERFECTLY reasonable. No one would ever suggest that people need wade through vulgarity or inappropriate subject matter in any of the support sections. That would be both distracting and irresponsible.

All I want, all I've been saying, is a "grown-up lounge" that the adult posters can just hang out and bull[BLEEP] freely.

LaRoza
May 13th, 2008, 01:33 AM
In the support areas, that's PERFECTLY reasonable. No one would ever suggest that people need wade through vulgarity or inappropriate subject matter in any of the support sections. That would be both distracting and irresponsible.

All I want, all I've been saying, is a "grown-up lounge" that the adult posters can just hang out and bull[BLEEP] freely.

Pretend like it is the workplace. The support forums are the official phone lines and cubicles. The Cafe and OPP is your cell phone on break and idle chatter in the break room.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 02:09 AM
Pretend like it is the workplace. The support forums are the official phone lines and cubicles. The Cafe and OPP is your cell phone on break and idle chatter in the break room.

Having worked in an office in the past (prior to it making my brain turn to mush) I recall the amount of downright hilariously dirty discussion that happened in the break room while the boss wasn't around. Not to mention what people looked at on their computers during downtime with their monitors turned away from the door.

But I do understand the analogy. My response would be: until you can find a way to get all of the people here onto a less-censored forum for non-Linux chatter, I'm sticking with my initial complaint.

zetetic
May 13th, 2008, 03:23 AM
Yes, I agree that autocratic moderators are destroying the spirit of these forums.

In some civilized countries censorship (or denying people's right to freedom of expression) is a criminal offense.

So with the right lawyers and appealing to the right jurisdictions and/or court of law we certainly can put some of the moderators into jail.

We can even ask for their extradition, if necessary.

p_quarles
May 13th, 2008, 03:41 AM
Again, freedom of expression is not even an applicable issue here. This is a privately-sponsored web site. Users agree to terms of use when they create accounts. Your remedy, if you feel oppressed, is to leave the site.

I am quite frankly astonished by the lack of perspective that seems to be the a priori requirement for complaining about the language filters and politeness rules here.

zetetic
May 13th, 2008, 03:56 AM
Oh my... This site wants to be above the law... lol

KiwiNZ
May 13th, 2008, 03:59 AM
This site is not above the law nor does it try to be. It is primarily a support forum for Ubuntu.

We state the rules and conditions of membership up front when one joins. And members agree to the rules when they join.

Thus you have authorised the staff to moderate your posts .

cardinals_fan
May 13th, 2008, 04:04 AM
If you need profanity to express yourself, your vocabulary is too small.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 05:04 AM
If you need profanity to express yourself, your vocabulary is too small.

If you refuse to use profanity, it means you're limiting yours. :popcorn:

I have to say, the anti-profanity brigade here is downright adorable. You must be the same people who say you don't need alcohol to have a good time while you're sitting at home on a Friday night.

-grubby
May 13th, 2008, 05:07 AM
Not to be off subject in an off-topic forum, but I ironically find this thread very interesting to read

p_quarles
May 13th, 2008, 05:32 AM
You must be the same people who say you don't need alcohol to have a good time while you're sitting at home on a Friday night.
This is what you don't seem to understand: I use both alcohol and profanity frequently and sometimes excessively. They can both be very useful and fun. If I relied on either of them to enjoy myself, though, I would find my social options much more limited than they currently are.

What ticks me off is that you are trying to paint the rules (which you agreed to follow) as somehow intolerant, when it is actually you yourself who is intolerant of the fact that the nature of the audience of this forum requires people to moderate some aspects of their behavior. Moreover, you haven't made any actual arguments supporting your position that profanities and personal attacks should be allowed, just repeated the insinuation that disallowing these things is equivalent to treating you as a child.

In other words, I'm not convinced that you understand why the rules were implemented in the first place, which in turn places you in a rather bad position to judge or object to them.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Moreover, you haven't made any actual arguments supporting your position that profanities and personal attacks should be allowed, just repeated the insinuation that disallowing these things is equivalent to treating you as a child.

But that IS a perfectly valid reason. After all, if the Linux ethos is that of choice, limiting both my pool of words and my catalog of topics seems rather antithetical to this, ne*?

Secondly, I don't believe I have, once, in this entire thread, said anything about personal attacks. As with your insinuation that my arguments were related to the other guy's who said "police brutality", your inability to actually shoot down my points is being masked by a veneer of conflation. Nice try, though.

I just want to have a single, sole spot on this board where I can talk about booze, sex, and wild times, where I can call ******** when I see it and let someone know they're being an *******. I like the community and only see this as adding to its strength for there to be a place to unbuckle the old belt and stop worrying about offending people's sensitivities.

Also, to those who seem to think profanity and vulgar topics reveal a lack of either creativity or vocabulary, two words: George Carlin.



*No, I didn't mean that analogy seriously.

cardinals_fan
May 13th, 2008, 05:40 AM
If you refuse to use profanity, it means you're limiting yours. :popcorn:

I have to say, the anti-profanity brigade here is downright adorable. You must be the same people who say you don't need alcohol to have a good time while you're sitting at home on a Friday night.
Believe me, I have no problem with obscenities. But it's not that big of a deal.

My main point is this: if you need to curse in order to make your point, your point isn't very good.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 05:43 AM
Believe me, I have no problem with obscenities. But it's not that big of a deal.

My main point is this: if you need to curse in order to make your point, your point isn't very good.

Well what happens, then, when my point IS good and then I add some profanities to it? It's like Spongebob once said, they're sentence enhancers! :lolflag:

KiwiNZ
May 13th, 2008, 05:48 AM
We are not saying you cannot use profanity , what we are saying that if you choose to be a member here and you choose to post here , then you are to abide by the rules here.

You are free of course to frequent other forums and post according to their rules.

SomeGuyDude
May 13th, 2008, 06:14 AM
We are not saying you cannot use profanity , what we are saying that if you choose to be a member here and you choose to post here , then you are to abide by the rules here.

You are free of course to frequent other forums and post according to their rules.

But you can't deny that the size of the forums at this point lead one to think that it would benefit by opening up just a tad. The people here rock, I'd love to be able to really shoot the shiite with 'em.

To quarles, I'm not really flaming you or anything, just elaborating on my point.

KiwiNZ
May 13th, 2008, 06:43 AM
But you can't deny that the size of the forums at this point lead one to think that it would benefit by opening up just a tad. The people here rock, I'd love to be able to really shoot the shiite with 'em.

To quarles, I'm not really flaming you or anything, just elaborating on my point.


The size of the forum and its audience now make it more appropriate that the standards remain as they are .Especially in the open areas.

Who knows maybe we could change the Pink ponies to allow more colorful language .

click4851
May 13th, 2008, 08:31 AM
I will let this be my last word on the topic, I for one have always known this was a private forum, and all that went along with that. I can handle the moderating, I am an adult, and this ain't my first time at the rodeo. I do object to being managed, like some unruly child that needs some sort electronic equivalent of behaviour modification, because my babysitter is tired of hearing it. Regardless of its intial beginnings I will no longer post or "contribute" in the OMG Pink Ponies forum. Small potatoes for sure, but that was one reason I visited this board, and thats not the only forum I post to. It is indeed a private forum, but it is only a sum of its contributors....and I believe it has been lessened of late.

chucky chuckaluck
May 13th, 2008, 09:09 AM
Again, freedom of expression is not even an applicable issue here. This is a privately-sponsored web site. Users agree to terms of use when they create accounts. Your remedy, if you feel oppressed, is to leave the site.

I am quite frankly astonished by the lack of perspective that seems to be the a priori requirement for complaining about the language filters and politeness rules here.

the rules have changed, though. when i first joined, the community cafe and the backyard (or, whatever the ** is was called) were much looser than they are now, and that standard was practiced by people who are now moderators. people don't object to having rules, they object to having freedoms taken away from them. that's what this thread is about.

additionally, one has to realize that people who use linux, because of that idiotic "free as in speech, and something about beer" slogan, have an expectation of free expression. it might be well for uf to disassociate itself from that slogan (after all, this isn't bunker hill) and the expectations that come with it.

zetetic
May 14th, 2008, 09:36 PM
This site is not above the law nor does it try to be. It is primarily a support forum for Ubuntu.

We state the rules and conditions of membership up front when one joins. And members agree to the rules when they join.

Thus you have authorised the staff to moderate your posts .

This is becoming funny. Now the staff admits these Forums are above the law. lol

popch
May 14th, 2008, 09:46 PM
This site is not above the law nor does it try to be. It is primarily a support forum for Ubuntu.

We state the rules and conditions of membership up front when one joins. And members agree to the rules when they join.

Thus you have authorised the staff to moderate your posts .


This is becoming funny. Now the staff admits these Forums are above the law. lol

How do you read any of the statements by staff here that the forum is above the law? Kiwi explicitly says otherwise: "This site is not above the law".

If you think that the moderation of posts by staff is 'above the law' then you must think that you have an unalienable right to post without any moderation in ubuntuforums.org. There is, however, no law which says so.

zetetic
May 14th, 2008, 11:02 PM
How do you read any of the statements by staff here that the forum is above the law? Kiwi explicitly says otherwise: "This site is not above the law".

If you think that the moderation of posts by staff is 'above the law' then you must think that you have an unalienable right to post without any moderation in ubuntuforums.org. There is, however, no law which says so.

I smell censorship in the air.

p_quarles
May 14th, 2008, 11:07 PM
I smell censorship in the air.
I'm beginning to suspect you haven't read this thread very closely. Here's a synopsis:

1) Yes, we censor.

2) This is well within the rights -- legal and moral -- of the site owners

3) Free speech laws protect individuals from prosecution and harassment, not from being uninvited to someone else's property.

LaRoza
May 14th, 2008, 11:25 PM
the rules have changed, though. when i first joined, the community cafe and the backyard (or, whatever the ** is was called) were much looser than they are now, and that standard was practiced by people who are now moderators. people don't object to having rules, they object to having freedoms taken away from them. that's what this thread is about.

additionally, one has to realize that people who use linux, because of that idiotic "free as in speech, and something about beer" slogan, have an expectation of free expression. it might be well for uf to disassociate itself from that slogan (after all, this isn't bunker hill) and the expectations that come with it.

When you first joined, was the community any smaller? June 12th, 2005 was a while ago.

In Ubuntu, we follow this also: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct It is directly related to Ubuntu, the main subject of this forum.

The Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct is applying that CoC to the forum.

cardinals_fan
May 15th, 2008, 12:39 AM
This is becoming funny. Now the staff admits these Forums are above the law. lol
Do you actually believe that censorship on a privately owned forum is illegal?