(Somewhat facetiously) Should we have a sticky telling Windows experts to stay away?

[aysiu]

I was looking through the Ubuntu Testimonials and Experiences at some of the negative experiences and found some interesting snippets.

I am not a programmer, system administrator, or network administrator. I don't work at a help desk (apart from helping out on the Ubuntu Forums every once in a wihle), and I have never built a computer before (I buy them all prebuilt). Somehow I've managed fine with Ubuntu for three years.

Maybe we should caution "experts" against trying Ubuntu?
I work in IT, predominantly windows computing. I basically do web design, and computer repairs etc. So I am not an expert but equally I am not a newbie.
I programmed some pretty extensive, complicated programs in visual basic and know, a lot of times, it is tedious and difficult to find the solution to a problem. But nothing I did programming prepared me for dealing with ubuntu.
Throughout my trials I have been called a quitter. stupid, any number of things by Linux users. I can guarantee you none of those things relate to me. I'm 72 years old, have been with every upgrade of Win from 95 through XP. Built computers from scratch and repaired many for others.
I have been around in the IT industry since 1983 building my ZX80 at the tender age of 11! Upgrading this beast of a machine to a ZX81 a little later (when the prices came down!) complete with RAM-pack wobble and 1K chess (and yes – it could beat me, I'm rubbish!). I learnt assembler on a Mattel Aquarius of all things and got into the Amiga scene shortly after. Good grounding on the Amiga CLI as it was Unix based, before moving onto my first 286 about 2 years later. I then taught myself 80286 assembler along with the 2GLs around at the time of Pascal, C and FORTRAN. Smattered with COBOL a bit at college before taking the 3GL plunge with VB and C++. I got my first job working with Prime mainframes (anyone remember the old reel to reel tape path – sadly I do!), before a brief stint in contracting in VB and VBA for Y2K stuff and ending up as 3rd line support and DBA/Project Consultant – will not bore you with any more details! I say this not as a boast or a ego boost, just simply to defer any flame posts due to lack of computing knowledge. I would also like to add that my day to day job also include the administration of several Unix/Linux servers and SUN solaris boxes, so I am by no means a Microsoft aficionado!
If I as a user (and an experienced IT technician and user) have problems loading and sorting out an install what hope is there for the non-computer minded user who simply wants to load a new program.
I've used PCs since before some reading this were born. (How long? If I look I can probably fond a DOS 2.1 operating system on a 5.25" floppy in my basement.) I've pretty well worked exclusively in the DOS/Windows world all that time.
I'm an IT professional and have been using MS stuff since DOS 2. I have never in my 20 something years seen a system screwed up so badly so easily as with Linux.

[smartboyathome]

I think we should have a sticky, but instead of telling Windows experts to stay away, it should say something like this:


Before saying anything, please note that Ubuntu is not Windows and that it requires a somewhat steep learning curve, especially if you have extensive knowlege in Windows. It is likely you will not get why it is the way it is at first or that you will think it isn't easy due to things working differently on the Linux platform. If you aren't prepared to take the plunge, please don't post that it isn't as easy as windows due to the lack of similarities between platforms. This is being worked on and you must come with an open mind.

Thank you,
Ubuntu Forums staff

[Tomosaur]

People who consider themselves experts have a false sense of confidence, so when things go pear-shaped, they blame the system, not themselves.

Always remember, a bad worker blames his tools!

The people who find Linux easiest are people who find Windows enough of a hassle.

[BDNiner]

I think the last thing we want to do is chase users away. Smartboyathome makes a good point. Carefully outlining that linux is not windows is a better idea.

[jken146]

Some people seem to think that Windows == computers. These are those who complain that Ubuntu is difficult because they are not newbies (to computers, having used Windows quite extensively) and they are having trouble.

This isn't really the best attitude to approach something new, but it is the genuine experience of some people who try Ubuntu for the first time. They are wrong in their reasons for ridiculing Ubuntu, but their approach is quite telling of the wider opinions of computing that a lot of people hold. I know it's a bit tedious if you're a forum regular to keep reading "Ubuntu sucks, in Windows I could do everything easily... Why is everything so hard in Linux?!?!?" -- I still wouldn't discourage people from posting their experiences.

There are always going to be people with little patience and a bad attitude. We should still give them tech support if they ask nicely though!

[days_of_ruin]

Yes, yes and yes!

[DUfire]

Being myself, I tend to catch on slowly, but I would never blame the system for problems on it, unless of course it came pre-install with Vista [you know the acronym].

Anyway, that's pretty lame, those people are just whining because Linux isn't as easy as they thought it would be, and it's their own fault for not knowing what they were getting themselves into.
Definitely calls into the question the use of the word "expert"; Because if they are "experts", what does that make me?

A sticky might help, I dunno how effective it would be...

[koenn]

I was looking through the Ubuntu Testimonials and Experiences at some of the negative experiences and found some interesting snippets.
...
Maybe we should caution "experts" against trying Ubuntu?
I haven't read the posts you're quoting from, so going by the quotations only : [only] 3 out of 7 say something about having trouble with Ubuntu, the other 4 just say things like "I'm not a newbie", I'm not a MS afficionado", "I'm not a quitter/stupid/... " and "I used to work with DOW/Windows almost exclusively",
so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

[Ub1476]

I've been using Linux for a year now, and believe I've learned the build of it quite well, but by all means, I will never call myself an expert. I mean, just trying out a new distro (say when I tried Arch), I felt kinda stupid due to its difference from Ubuntu (which means: it's a great distro, just different). It's just the same way with these guys, just a little longer step. I would call them ignorant ranting in such a way.

I think the quote from smartboyathome should be implanted in the registration though.

[akiratheoni]

I think we should just post the actual (not just the link) Linux is Not Windows article every time someone like the ones aysiu posted makes a testimonial.

[ugm6hr]

Unfortunately, self-confessed "experts" often learn patterns rather than underlying principles.

Hence the difficulty in transferring skills cross-OS.

The same problem is seen in many other industries, and is equally annoying.

[smoker]

Maybe we should caution "experts" against trying Ubuntu?"

No, let them post their windows cv's, it gives me great confidence to think that i can so easily do something that seems so difficult for an 'expert!'
:lolflag:

[amingv]

I do not consider myself (at any lenght) an expert at anything; but being fair with myself I knew a whole lot about Windows, I played with the registry keys at ease, used the console more than once in each session (though considerably useless in comparison) and could manage the most common (and some uncommon) administrative tasks.
That said, such knowledge hasn't helped me ONE BIT in my Linux experience; no surprise there, I picture the best soccer player ever moving on to basketball and asking himself in a rage:

"I was the $!@# best player in my league and I can't score one single basket? Basketball is obviously a sport that lesser sportsmen will be incapable to learn! Your basketball playing community has created a sport that is useless for the players who oh-so-obviously know less than me!"

It should be noted that, while pronouncing this rant, our soccer MVP is still wearing his soccer sneaks and a pair of socks that reach to his crotch while trying to score with his feet.

To answer the question no, no we shouldn't. But we should start by teaching them why /dev/null is so useful.

[p_quarles]

I don't think this phenomenon has anything to do with actual expertise in Windows as much as it does a feeling of defensiveness that often hits new and frustrated Linux users. Essentially people are saying "I can't figure this out -- but that doesn't mean I'm stupid!"

It's kind of pointless, of course, because we've all been beginners, and most of us aren't likely to consider someone stupid just because they're inexperienced with Linux. Yes, it's irritating when someone feels that they need to go so far out of their way to prove that they're not clueless about everything. Honestly, though, I think that if it weren't "I'm a Windows" expert, it would be something like "I'm a nuclear physicist/brain surgeon/Fortune 500 CEO."

[koenn]

I make a living running ICT infrastructure that consists mainly of Windows servers and workstations, and have been doing that since before I started using Linux.
I'm not a programmer, although I know the basics of a few programming languages.
I never had trouble learning Unix/Linux. As soon as I got over the more obvious differences (no driveletters, / in stead of \ , .... ), I found that the way Linix does things made more sense to me than the way WIndows does the same things (differently).
So being a WIndows "expert" (I don't consider myself one, my knowledge of Windows is wide rathe than deep, but I kinda fall in the category described by the OP, i.e. extensive/professional Windows experience before starting with Linux) didn't hinder me at all in learning to use Linux and feeling comfortable with it.

So no, we shouldn't tell Windows "experts" to stay away.

I see two types of 'problem users' in the quoted snippets
1- programmers.
Programmers know how to make programs, or just parts of programs, or components of parts of programs. That doesn't teach them anything about using an operating system.
Being able to build a gear box for a car, or even being able to design a combustion engine, doesn't teach you how to drive a car.


2- people with extensive experience on other operating systems
If they think that Operating System is synonymous with "Microsoft Windows" and can't grasp that there me be other ways of doing things, they'll expect a Windows clone, and be thrown of by the any minor difference between a Windows Desktop and a Gnome/KDE Desktop.
Something along the lines of :

Unfortunately, self-confessed "experts" often learn patterns rather than underlying principles.
Hence the difficulty in transferring skills cross-OS.


If they do understand that an OS is just software to let programs and users interact with the hardware, and thus that there is more than one way of doing that, just like there can be more than one implementation of search engine, or even a VCR or a laundry machine, then it might work for them. Their experience wit other OSes might even be helpfull, i.e. if you understand that although the implementation is different, the underlying tasks of the OS are the same (managing files, running programs, dealing with users, authentication, priviligues, providing a mechanism for installing software, ... ), then experience with one OS can actually help learning to use a new one.


And if they truely don't like the way Linux does thigns compaired to Windows (similar to the way Windows gaming addicts will never truely be satisfied with the current state of affairs), they can just leave. No need to try to keep them out in advance.

[ARhere]

I think the last thing we want to do is chase users away. Smartboyathome makes a good point. Carefully outlining that linux is not windows is a better idea.

I honestly do not get it....

I am an Electrical Engineer and my best programming experience is assembly and some embedded C that is only cross compatable with a goat. When software developers hear me talking about programming, they pass out from laughter.

So when I read those negative testimonies of people spouting how much they know, and they could not get Ubuntu to work.... I just don't get it. Every time I have ever had a problem/error with Ubuntu, the OS tells me about it and usually in the same error message it tells me what to type to fix it.

My only thought is the disclaimer should read...
1. This is not Windows
... and ...
2. If you don't understand, put away your "I know what I am doing" puffed up ego and ask/google/read.

-AR

[SuperSon!c]

everyone is going to have their opinions regardless of IT experience/PC skill. let people say what they want, it shouldn't bother you this much.

[Joeb454]

It is basically defending themselves against feeling stupid (my opinion anyway).

And I was somewhat of a Windows power user before moving to ubuntu...I still keep a dual boot just to remind me how to do things in Windows (I get called on when things go wrong :() But use Ubuntu around 98% of the time :)

I found it relatively easy to switch over, I just ran Ubuntu in a virtual machine for a couple of weeks, and then install properly :D

[NightwishFan]

A agree with the fact that the "Windows = Computers" mentality exists. Generally if it is not something made my Microsoft it cannot be good or useful. Those like that who try Linux and get discouraged just need to be told that the help exists, and it is only just different.

[jrusso2]

I have been a Windows/Novell Lan administrator for over ten years now and I have been a Linux user for 12 years.

I consider my Windows skills to be on the advanced side of the scale, and my Linux skills to be about in the middle of the scale.

I have been using mostly Linux as my main operating system at home since about 1998.

The best suggestion for people coming from a strong Windows background I can give it don't expect it to work like Windows. Most of the time your Windows experience will not help you here.

Be open to learning new things and new ways of doing things and you will be fine with Linux.

[LaRoza]

Where's the start button?

[ikt]

I came into ubuntu willing to dump all my knowledge of using computer software, I learned and am learning how to use ubuntu relatively quickly. However a colleague of mine is stuck in the windows mindset and is having great trouble.

[akiratheoni]

I came into ubuntu willing to dump all my knowledge of using computer software, I learned and am learning how to use ubuntu relatively quickly. However a colleague of mine is stuck in the windows mindset and is having great trouble.

I agree... if you switch to Linux, you need to drop everything you know about Windows. It's harder transitioning if you still have the Windows mindset. Hell, my friend switched to Ubuntu and still wanted to run msi and exe files. =/

[Moop]

It seems like the "windows experts" think linux will never be any good until it becomes a clone of windows. It makes me wonder why they even want to try something new.
:guitar:

[Riffer]

(With tongue firmly in cheek). An IT guy with 20 years experience can't get Ubuntu to work? Damm I must be a genius.

Sounds more like ******* fanboiz having a go.

[Irihapeti]

I am reminded of that old joke about the definition of an expert: X is the unknown quantity and a spirt is a drip under pressure.

Seriously, though, I guess that if someone is an expert, then they think that they should be able to begin at a somewhat more advanced level than a housewife/factory work/farmer etc trying Linux for the first time. And when it doesn't happen, it's rather a shock to the system.

Perhaps it's as logical as me, having studied a couple of European languages, thinking that I can learn Chinese and begin at the intermediate level. Sorry, it ain't going to happen that way, folks.

[egwest]

When I moved over to Ubuntu from windows, I did the one thing a newbie should do, bought Linux for Dummies!

Why? Because I came in knowing it was a totally different operating system then windows. The only thing that made the transition easier for me was the fact I was use to using a command line, having learned to work in DOS and BASIC when I was younger.

Instead of telling them to stay away, tell them if they don't get it, go buy the Linux for Dummies book, it does help for beginners, once you get the basics down, then you can move up to the more advanced books and learning.

I am going to tell you one thing though, UBUNTU ROCKS! And I am very happy I came across on the shelf of the book store when I was browsing through the computer Mags one day. I saw that magazine sitting there all by itself, and it had a Ubuntu disc in it, picked it up, bought it and installed it on a computer I had just finished fixing up, and the rest is as they say history, have not looked back since then, or even thought of windows in the same way.

[Saint Angeles]

when i used windows, i felt like i was a computer power user. Linux has really humbled me and has forced me to learn a lot more about how my computer works (and computers in general).

I think that windows has a way of hiding how your computer really works from the user. I've met a lot of windows users that believe they know everything about computers but don't know about partitions, drivers, etc...

I for one like knowing what my computer is doing when the red power light changes on the front of my computer (instead of some useless windows progress bar that says something like "installing"). hurray for linux and hurray for knowing how computers work!

[kelvin273]

It's funny. I'm only slightyly geekier than my friends, but I'm often the one they come to for computer problems. I have absolutely no IT experience and only took a couple of programming classes in college. I never hacked the Windows registry or anything like that. And I figured out how to do the really essential things in Ubuntu in a relatively short time.

Now, I think one reason for this is that I never used the command line in Windows. If you're a hardcore geek who uses the CL a lot, any differences in commands for the Linux terminal will probably throw you off a lot. OTOH, if you're used to doing most things with a GUI, it's not too hard to just click around the menus until you find the equivalent commands for your favorite tricks.

[LightB]

I think you are missing something, you have to realize that many of those so-called experts are merely attacking something unfamiliar. And maybe consciously or maybe not, I'm no shrink, but I think at some level they see non-windows as a threat. It is part of their job after all. If not that (though I believe it is), then consider it a regular case of dismay over trying something different after a long time of the same.

[NE Key]

I think you are missing something, you have to realize that many of those so-called experts are merely attacking something unfamiliar. And maybe consciously or maybe not, I'm no shrink, but I think at some level they see non-windows as a threat. It is part of their job after all. If not that (though I believe it is), then consider it a regular case of dismay over trying something different after a long time of the same.

They thought they were experts in the ONLY operating system - then they find there are better systems and users who know more than them.

Very disheartening. Natural behaviour is to return to "safe" territory and pretend that the linux OS doesn't exist or only just works or is only for a few experimental utilities.

[Tom Mann]

I would agree with the 'Windows in not Linux' post, I myself have now spent two years using Ubuntu (well from 6.06 anyway :))
I initially had a hard time getting to grips with Ubuntu, but that said I always always tried things. When I put my home on a separate partition and wrote down the packages I always used I found I had room to experiment and quickly reinstall from the live CD if anything went wrong which was a major boost for me. (Not the safest method I know)

Maybe we give these people a guide to setting up a second copy of Ubuntu under VirtualBox where they can play to their hearts content?

[Tundro Walker]

You can't put more tea in your cup if it's already full. Sounds like they're not open-minded enough to try something new. That, and they're bs'ing their credentials to make what they have to say sound more pertinent.

[K.Mandla]

Reminds me of. ...

Brian: I'm an idiot because I can't make a lamp?
Bender: No, you're a genius because you can't make a lamp.
Brian: What do you know about trigonometry?
Bender: I could care less about trigonometry.
Brian: Bender, did you know that without trigonometry there'd be no engineering?
Bender: Without lamps, there'd be no light!

[DarkOx]

I took a quick look through the Ubuntu testimonials section, and for the most part this doesn't look like a windows/linux thing. Most of the problems seemed to be relating to hardware (except for one fellow who uninstalled and then tried to reinstall CUPS, which hosed his system).

Pretty much all the "Linux is not ready" posts I read go like this. Someone puts the disk in their drive, goes to install, and hardware doesn't work. They search a bit for the problem, and if they find a solution, it's typically some arcane command line gibberish. So they go the forums and say "Geez guys, what are you smoking? Non-IT people can't deal with this! It's unusable."

Meanwhile, everyone who likes Ubuntu has working hardware (presumably). And the experience is like night and day. Thing works out the box, you get this nifty spinning cube, and look at all the useful software it comes with. Free! So they go the forums and say "Geez, what are you complaining about? Any idiot could get Ubuntu running, it works just fine. You're probably just too used to *******."

Personally, rather than a notice saying "Are you from Windows? Well, watch out, Ubuntu's different", I'd like to see Ubuntu make the verified hardware link on the main page a little more prominent. It's buried under the "Products" menu on the main page of www.ubuntu.com, where no one's going to see it. Users should be encouraged to check their system for compatibility first, so that if they have a setup Ubuntu won't support, they go in thinking "well, this isn't supported and so may not work", and have more realistic expectations about what to expect.

[aysiu]

Good point, DarkOx.

I also think people should be a little less enthusiastic about getting new users to install Ubuntu right away. Baby steps are best for most people. Start with open source Windows software. Maybe install Ubuntu in VirtualBox in Windows. Try out the live CD for a few weeks (yes, weeks - not just hours). If you really like it, then set up a dual boot (and maybe even with Wubi).

That way, if there are hardware incompatibilities, they'll be found before a huge commitment has been put in, and people will have had more time to adjust to the interface and maybe a few "arcane" commands.

[Kevbert]

Let the Windows 'experts' in so that they can see what they're missing.
I read somewhere that the definition of an expert is someone who makes mistakes (and hopefully learns from them).

[lswest]

Yeah, i don't consider myself an "expert" either, although i've built PCs from scratch, use Mac, Windows and Linux to a high degree (the first 2 at school, and Linux at home, or off my pendrive at school), fixed windows, worked at a computer shop, done graphic design stuff, programming, web design, etc. Sure, i'm only 17, but i have done a lot in the 6 years during which i have been completely obsessed by computers.

That being said, i think the main problem of these self-proclaimed "experts" is that they come to Linux expecting Windows. So i agree with post #2, there should be a sticky or something proclaiming that Ubuntu (and Linux) is not Windows and therefore things will need to be re-learned and that if they can't commit to that, they should start with small steps, e.g. Virtual Machines, etc. since they have no hardware problems. Just my input.

[Icehuck]

I took a quick look through the Ubuntu testimonials section, and for the most part this doesn't look like a windows/linux thing. Most of the problems seemed to be relating to hardware (except for one fellow who uninstalled and then tried to reinstall CUPS, which hosed his system).

Pretty much all the "Linux is not ready" posts I read go like this. Someone puts the disk in their drive, goes to install, and hardware doesn't work. They search a bit for the problem, and if they find a solution, it's typically some arcane command line gibberish. So they go the forums and say "Geez guys, what are you smoking? Non-IT people can't deal with this! It's unusable."

Meanwhile, everyone who likes Ubuntu has working hardware (presumably). And the experience is like night and day. Thing works out the box, you get this nifty spinning cube, and look at all the useful software it comes with. Free! So they go the forums and say "Geez, what are you complaining about? Any idiot could get Ubuntu running, it works just fine. You're probably just too used to *******."

Personally, rather than a notice saying "Are you from Windows? Well, watch out, Ubuntu's different", I'd like to see Ubuntu make the verified hardware link on the main page a little more prominent. It's buried under the "Products" menu on the main page of www.ubuntu.com, where no one's going to see it. Users should be encouraged to check their system for compatibility first, so that if they have a setup Ubuntu won't support, they go in thinking "well, this isn't supported and so may not work", and have more realistic expectations about what to expect.


I think you are probably more correct in this issue. Installing Linux on hardware that has known issues is like working on an old 386. If you wanted to install hardware you had to change the dip switches, jumpers, and manually edit the driver files. I used to do it all the time back in the day, and it wasn't difficult then and doing things similar isn't that hard now.

However; if you been using a Windows system during the last 10 years you don't have to do this. When you switch over to a Linux Distro like Gentoo or you move to Ubuntu and have "problem" hardware it's really like going back in time 20 years.

Honestly, who really wants to do that? When I leave the office I don't want to "work" on my computer. I want to go home check my email, see how the Cubs did, and go play some golf. Since my Gutsy install was fine, I'm able to do just that.

[aphirst]

Sometimes it really does make me wonder. People can be so different from each other.

I literally stumbled across Linux 2 years ago, and before I knew it, Windows had vanished from all the PCs in the house. A year ago, my next-door neighbour (a network administrator, Windows and all that jazz) wondered "what the hell was going on with my laptop", and within 3 months, he was a Linux user. His mind was open, and being genuinely good at what he does (and actually wanting to know how things work), he learned the basics, intermediates, and even some of the more low-level stuff (relatively speaking). Within a few months of that, I 'converted' several friends into using Linux.
I'm not too sure about some people, but it seems some of the people I socially interact with aren't 'stuck in the Windows mindset'; but far too many people are.
I can be quite good at putting up a convincing argument if I need to, but too many people simply either aren't willing to change, or aren't willing to learn.
"Ooh, I can't play games on Linux". Yes, you can. Every single game I've thrown at the damn thing works! Perfectly!

So, as a satisfied Linux user with an 'army of minions' (*cough*) I simply wish to say this: I had to sit down and learn how to use Linux, and it was daunting at first, but it's not impossible, and you'll soon wonder why you didn't change sooner!

Remaining within the realms of the "Not going-off-on-one", the quote from smartboyathome really should be incorporated into the registration process for the forums, or even mentioned during the installation process. Most people aren't stupid. They're just too used to what they have, or are ill-informed. They all deserve a chance, and I try my best to give it to them out in the real world!

[aysiu]

So it sounds as if a combination of having an open mind and compatible hardware makes for a more likely migration success.

[Irihapeti]

One of the things I see happening again and again is overgeneralisation of one's own personal experience. I think most people don't realise they are doing it.

Person A installs Ubuntu (or any other distro) and has instant success. He/she immediately says: "It's great! Anyone can use it!" etc etc. Person B has incompatible hardware or specialist needs, runs into strife and tells the world that Ubuntu sucks big time, isn't ready for prime time and so on. The same goes for people using Windows, by the way.

All of them are wrong. They'd be more accurate to say, "Ubuntu works absolutely wonderfully for me." or "My experience has been that Ubuntu has caused major problems." rather than project their experience on the world as a whole. But, hey, there's this thing called human nature, and people will go on doing this. And I guess that "experts" sensing a humbling challenge to their sense of uber-competence are no exception.

Just my $.02

[Tristam Green]

My first networking professor in college told our class a bit of information that I have kept with me and has humbled the hardest of "experts":

"There is no such thing as an expert in computing. There is no such thing as an expert in networking, Windows, Linux, or anything related to the IT field. Expert indicates that you claim to know everything there is to know about the field, and that's simply impossible in our line of work. Anyone who attempts to convince you is just trying to sell something."

He worked with AT&T/Southern Bell/BellSouth for over 20 years and had been a professor in IT/Networking for nearly 10.

Smartest words any of my instructors ever uttered.

[ExpatPaul]

I think a lot of the problem is that people with a lot of experience with a single operating system will assume that everything else works the same. These people probably are very competent with their chosen OS (usually, but not necessarily exclusively, Windows) but haven't really looked any further than that and, consequently, become frustrated when faced with something that works differently.

It's been repeated often enough that Linux isn't Windows. I think the corollary to this is that if you think about what you want to achieve rather than how you did it on your old system, you won't run into a lot of problems.

[kelvin273]

I think there is something to the hardware compatibility issue. I had the best possible experience installing Ubuntu (after running it on the live CD for a while). Every single peripheral, including my cable modem, worked right off the bat. There probably should be some kind of warning about the kinds of peripherals most likely to work with Ubuntu. All my stuff (other than the cable modem) is HP, and HP seems to be pretty supportive of Linux (even making open-source Linux versions of the software that monitors your printer ink and aligns the cartridges). Since Dell sells machines with Ubuntu preinstalled, its hardware probably works pretty well too. But it seems that more obscure brands often have compatibility problems.

[gsmanners]

I think the real problem with these "experts" is that the limit of their experience is frequently a little Visual Basic and C++ in a few classes or something similar (like .NET "ninjas"). They aren't really experts. They probably don't even know anything about how to design, test or debug their code. Heck, I bet most of them don't even use comments.

They are *self-made* experts, not professionally trained ones. That seems to me like the cause of their difficulties. And I'll bet they have a lot of similar problems every time Windows comes out with a new "standard" for programming. Suddenly, nothing makes sense to them and it takes them 6 or 8 months to finally realize that different may actually be better.

[kelvin273]

I'm not sure that being "self-made" automatically makes a person stupid. After all, somebody who figured out complex computer-related stuff by themselves probably has the ability to learn new things. Somebody who's learned from a bunch of classes or manuals, on the other hand, probably has learned a body of conventional knowledge and may or may not be adaptable enough to learn new tricks.

[Icehuck]

They are *self-made* experts, not professionally trained ones. That seems to me like the cause of their difficulties. And I'll bet they have a lot of similar problems every time Windows comes out with a new "standard" for programming. Suddenly, nothing makes sense to them and it takes them 6 or 8 months to finally realize that different may actually be better.

Except experience is worth far more then any training/certification people get. There is a reason why techs with experience hate dealing with all the people who have nothing but certs. All certifications mean is you can memorize something from a book. Heck I know people who have their MCSE but don't know what Group Policy is..

[dasunst3r]

Telling people to stay away like that will make them do exactly that... and take some prospective converts with them in the process. To people taking the Linux plunge for the first time, I have a couple bullet points for them to consider:


Switching from Windows to Linux is like switching to a new toolset. It carries a nontrivial learning curve. To learn Linux, you will need a lot of patience.
Try hard to not count the stuff that does not work. Count the things that do. The cards are stacked up against Linux because the world's hardware and software are so entrenched in the Microsoft world.


However, I do have one bit of advice from a professor: Never proclaim yourself an expert at something because somebody somewhere will call your bluff.

[jrusso2]

Except experience is worth far more then any training/certification people get. There is a reason why techs with experience hate dealing with all the people who have nothing but certs. All certifications mean is you can memorize something from a book. Heck I know people who have their MCSE but don't know what Group Policy is..

You can't pass the MCSE without knowing group policy. Unless you forgot what you learned right after the test I find that hard to believe.

[Icehuck]

You can't pass the MCSE without knowing group policy. Unless you forgot what you learned right after the test I find that hard to believe.

You don't know the idiots I work with. These are the same people who think you have to be physically connected to a router to manage it.

[blithen]

People who consider themselves experts have a false sense of confidence, so when things go pear-shaped, they blame the system, not themselves.

Always remember, a bad worker blames his tools!

The people who find Linux easiest are people who find Windows enough of a hassle.

That sums up what I was thinking. Especially the false confidence part.

[SoulinEther]

So it sounds as if a combination of having an open mind and compatible hardware makes for a more likely migration success.

Yes, undoubtedly, along with patience, commitment, and perseverance: with all these qualities, a person can travel far, limited by nothing... except lifespan.

(I'm guessing you were more so being facetious in making this post than otherwise... if not, my answer to the title of your post is.. no. :) )

But in Ubuntu/other GNU/Linux users warning Windows users that Linux is different, are we not putting up a big sign saying "stay away?"

My argument here becomes a bit contradictory... bear with me. If you feel I'm wrong, correct me. If you feel I have completely missed the wall in my attempt to throw this little dart into the bulls eye, let me know: I will promptly remove everything I have written, for there is no point in uselessly distracting others, nor in measuring just how far the floor is from the dartboard.

I base my analysis on the development of two similar but different projects: Rockbox and Wine. I hope my gatherings from these projects are pertinent to development of an operating system for a computer.

A more fundamental issue I believe is at stake here, and it involves hardware more than anything. Lots of Windows immigrants complain that their favorite/necessary/addictively-important software does not operate within GNU/Linux (that is long.. G/L from here out) because it was not designed to function within G/L, nor cross compile, but to remain in Microsoft Windows (and the same argument can be carried over to Mac OS (X) software, as well). But... (I hope) I cannot be wrong in saying that the same analogy applies to the hardware: computers that most people own today were not designed to run G/L: they were designed to run some variant of Windows. Yes, there are some well-defined, available standards for how certain pieces of hardware function, but some things are not as well defined, and getting those pieces of hardware to function correctly within anything but the operating system they were designed for, with drivers available, etc., can be a bit of a problem. Video cards being dysfunctional, sound not working, the installation not even able to start - there is a plethora of problems associated with hardware... sometimes, however, that's not anybody's fault, and the problem is not with the operating system, but the makers of the hardware themselves.

New users need not be enlightened in knowing how GNU/Linux differs from Windows - let them know that the difference delves deeper than name only, and that no one knows exactly where the difference ends, that shall suffice (let the rest be a mystery, its more fun when people have to interpret ambiguity). Educate new users, however, a bit on the history of GNU/Linux (I myself would be eager to hear it, maybe my entire point is wrong)... the history of distributions, the story of how Piece of Hardware X became functional after Y years of trial and error, with no help from the manufacturer.. for there is an important lesson to be learned from such a story: it answers the question, "Why does this crappy ubuntu whatever not work with my computer when it works with my friends computer?," and it answers it nicely, too: Ubuntu works on your machine because developers involved with the different aspects of G/L somewhere along the line had pieces of hardware similar to, if not the same as, those that constitutes your own computer, or because various variant pieces of hardware comply to standards with which Ubuntu is familiar... if Ubuntu does not work with your computer, it is because no developer has dealt with certain components of your hardware yet, and if a developer has, perhaps your hardware just has not gone through the Y number of minutes, days, months, or years necessary to make it fully functional.

Who can help make it functional? None other than the manufacturers. But Windows' device driver solution cannot work, because most drivers are released in non-free, closed source terms, which stands contradictory to the spirit of the free software movement. Hardware manufacturers need to release their drivers under suitable open source terms, such that people already involved in cracking pieces of hardware can shift their focus of development from trying to get things to work, to implementing the drivers in the G/L distribution so that when the OS runs into a piece of hardware, it can use it, not cause the person attempting to try G/L grief.

Economically, this shouldn't be too harmful. Hardware is physical. Just because you are releasing your drivers and the information on how your hardware works does not mean you still don't have a business in creating the actual pieces of hardware themselves, and improving upon your innovations. And if, in becoming thusly open, another business takes the information and creates better hardware, then so be it - competition is. It would be weird to live without it. GNU/Linux would not exist without it.

So, not to steal John F. Kennedy's chiasmus, because it just doesn't apply fully here, but this is a case of "Ask not what you can do for Ubuntu to run on your computer; ask those who have fundamentally decided what operating system will run on your hardware what they can do to get Ubuntu running for you."

If people really want Ubuntu to run on their computer, they need to have an open mind, be patient, committed, to persevere, because either one of two options lies ahead: developers will eventually find a way to get Ubuntu running on their computer... or someone can show the developers how to get it running for their computer. I assume these "developers" will be doing their development regardless of what the exact task is, and Option B sounds much less grim and much more appealing to the open source philosophy anyway, promoting longevity - less breaks between the hardware revisions and the backs of developers.
And let us not forget the more instantaneous results...

So, in summary, let people know
-that the development of GNU/Linux / Ubuntu to such a state is in itself a feat, and that if it does not function prolifically with their hardware, that it is just as much the fault of the “developers of Ubuntu” as it is the fault of time, and that the real fault lies elsewhere;
-that they may have hiccups when trying to get it functioning with their own hardware... a link to the supported hardware page, or whatever, is very relevant here.
-that if they really want to get Ubuntu working for them, they need to be open minded and patient;
-that if they do not want to be outdone by their Ubuntu-using friends they need to spend the time as necessary to fix their problems (and that their friends had to put in the time just the same)
-that things would go so much smoother if GNU/Linux didn't have so many freaking obstacles blocking it!

In knowing more facts, if the person who wants to try GNU/Linux feels dissuaded, at least they can feel so outside of ignorance, fear, dissatisfaction, pride, etc.

Ok. I have to eat dinner, and I don't even know if I stayed on topic even..

my $100.02, on account of it being so unwieldy, wordy, un-proofread.

[barbedsaber]

its been said before, and I will say it again, linux is not windows.
no its not, really.
you do things differently, which is not necessarily bad, its just different, and if we remain closed to change, well, put it this way. If humans had never accepted change, we would still be living in caves.

[swoll1980]

As far as hard to use. My 5 year old son uses Ubuntu without a problem.
As far as administration. I was a Windows guy I adjusted fairly quickly.
I think emphasizing different doesn't equal=hard is the way to go. For my 5 year old
it wasn't different it was just the way things are, and he finds it quite easy.
So hearing some guy that is supposedly the computer master of the universe getting
out smarted by a 5 year old is pretty funny.

[AdamG51172]

These so-called experts really all must be quite young, or never upgraded their own machines, because I remember what a pain it was getting drivers to 'just work' for Windows. The early Sound Blaster cards were horrible to try to get to work in DOS and even later cards in Win95. Installing and reinstalling from 4 floppies!! And I can't tell you how much of my life I've wasted staring at a BSOD!!
So, when I've got a Live CD that I can turn back to and try again, I am not put off in the slightest.
I put together a new box last year with a mobo that was Vista certified, fearing the worst, and was not too surprised that getting the brand new (at the time) X1250 IGP to work was a little more work than I wished, and came to find out that driver development was lagging, I just sought out the answers. And if I goofed or broke something, in went the Live CD and back to the boards, google, etc..
I learned a lot about the inner workings of my distro in the process. I had to do it with Windows way back then, but having an open community willing to help is much more
alluring than the alternative.

[Sef]

Some people seem to think that Windows == computers. These are those who complain that Ubuntu is difficult because they are not newbies (to computers, having used Windows quite extensively) and they are having trouble.

They are newbies to Ubuntu and that is the problem. They don't think they are.

[Kevbert]

Experience doesn't necessarily make anyone an expert. People tend to forget that like life software is constantly evolving and everyone should embrace change (or stagnate). I've been working with software for over 30 years, but wouldn't call myself an expert as I'm always learning something new. To Windows users Linux is new and we should help them where necessary.

[zetetic]

Unfortunately, self-confessed "experts" often learn patterns rather than underlying principles.

Hence the difficulty in transferring skills cross-OS.

The same problem is seen in many other industries, and is equally annoying.

I agree with you 200%.

How could you say so much and something so true on a single and simple phrase?

«self-confessed "experts" often learn patterns rather than underlying principles.» - I even added this to my book of famous quotes.

[Tom Mann]

Exactly. Anyway there is a such thing as a Windows Professional (Being paid to know Windows) but a Windows Expert? (heh heh)

Sorry, I came from a Windows Hobbyist (that sounds better) background into Linux - to tackle the original argument we need to put forward to these people:

1. Linux is an entirely different concept to Windows
2. To put it another way, Linux is NOT Windows.
3. Go write 400 lines of the above.

We need to drum it into peoples heads that a change in tack is needed with migration, but also that it's nothing to fear as Linux can be just as easy, and with knowledge a great deal more powerful.

[insane_alien]

The few people i know who i would consider computer experts would never describe them selves as experts.they are very aware of just how much they don't know about computers(its all above me).

the people i know who do consider themselves experts are those who have successfully managed to reinstall windows on the 4th try with some help from technical support.

[Barrucadu]

The few people i know who i would consider computer experts would never describe them selves as experts.they are very aware of just how much they don't know about computers(its all above me).

the people i know who do consider themselves experts are those who have successfully managed to reinstall windows on the 4th try with some help from technical support.
+1

My friends call me an expert, and I just look at them with a slightly confused expression on my face. I am very aware of my limitations, but to my peers, I am an expert. On the other hand, I have known many self-proclaimed experts, and give them anything other than a typical problem to solve and they break down like a little child.

[argie]

Maybe it isn't fair for me to do this, but I find the idea of a VB Expert funny. That is all. You may thank me for adding worthwhile information to this discussion.

[funrider]

expert? maybe to your sons or your wife?

i am a software support dealing with various os daily and still, in front of my company IT team, i am nothing.

[ezekielnin]

Some people seem to think that Windows == computers. These are those who complain that Ubuntu is difficult because they are not newbies (to computers, having used Windows quite extensively) and they are having trouble.

This isn't really the best attitude to approach something new, but it is the genuine experience of some people who try Ubuntu for the first time. They are wrong in their reasons for ridiculing Ubuntu, but their approach is quite telling of the wider opinions of computing that a lot of people hold. I know it's a bit tedious if you're a forum regular to keep reading "Ubuntu sucks, in Windows I could do everything easily... Why is everything so hard in Linux?!?!?" -- I still wouldn't discourage people from posting their experiences.

There are always going to be people with little patience and a bad attitude. We should still give them tech support if they ask nicely though!


I totally agree! I personally work in the IT field and what I find exciting is discovering something completely new things like ubuntu. Perhaps people who install it and don't like it are simply not confident that they will be able to use it. In any ways I installed Hardy Heron and I LOVE IT.

See ya!

[SuperSon!c]

the people i know who do consider themselves experts are those who have successfully managed to reinstall windows on the 4th try with some help from technical support.

lol, they must be pretty stupid. current versions of windows are a piece of cake to install, they just take longer than ubuntu to do it.

[init1]

A sticky to tell people to go away? Did I read that correctly? I thought Ubuntu was Linux for everyone, including Windows experts. In fact, I know plenty of Windows experts who like Linux too.

[ExpatPaul]

I know plenty of Windows experts who like Linux too.

I can well believe that and don't think that Windows experts will have any more problem with Linux than anyone else. The problem is with people who think that they're Windows experts...

[p_quarles]

Did I read that correctly?
If you read it as a sarcastic jab at those specific self-appointed "Windows experts" who feel impelled to pronounce Ubuntu unusable for the commoners, then, yes, you read it correctly.

[southernman]

If you read it as a sarcastic jab at those specific self-appointed "Windows experts" who feel impelled to pronounce Ubuntu unusable for the commoners, then, yes, you read it correctly.Whatever you do, don't beat around the bush p_quarles... ;)

How ya been?

Nice to see somethings never change, with all the Windows folks claiming Ubuntu isn't ready for <fill in the blank>.

I remember this one guy.... ah never mind!

What I've realized in switching from MS to Ubuntu (any GNU/Linux for that matter), your mind must be open. A willingness to change and learn new (better?) ways to do things.

Que Sara Sara!

[mbeach]

@aysiu - seeing as your thread from about 3 years ago is still active (and applicable)
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315
I think its something the community will be dealing with for some time to come.

For me, I'm happy with the latest Hardy, and continue to try and get people to try Ubuntu - very easy now with VirtualBox (I've yet to try WUBI).

Reading "Windows Experts" reminded me of a new co-worker (self proclaimed database expert) who said the database that the company we were working for was utter garbage because it was case sensitive (he also didn't approve of the use of natural keys over using an id column on every record, but that's another debate altogether). He was a young MSSQL server guy; we had been using Informix since the very early 90's. He had gotten burned by some underlying queries on some reports. Sometimes its just what you are used to and perhaps some should stick with what they know.

Now, let me go dabble with Python.

PHP Expert,
mb.

[ExpatPaul]

Reading "Windows Experts" reminded me of a new co-worker (self proclaimed database expert) who said the database that the company we were working for was utter garbage because it was case sensitive (he also didn't approve of the use of natural keys over using an id column on every record, but that's another debate altogether). He was a young MSSQL server guy; we had been using Informix since the very early 90's. He had gotten burned by some underlying queries on some reports. Sometimes its just what you are used to and perhaps some should stick with what they know.

That reminds me of a co-worker I had to deal with a few years ago. He'd worked at one other company and had learned to do things the way that that company did things. Obviously every company does things differently but every time that this was pointed out to him his attitude was to insist that we were wrong and should do everything the way he was used to.

He lasted less than a month.

[frogotronic]

Hi All,

It took me about six months to figure out Linux as a dual boot user with breezy. During that time I kacked several installs. I taught myself computing on a Commodore64. I have used M$, AppleII+, etc. I think Linux is the easiest to use once you understand the file structure and how things are organised. I now use Gutsy with codeweavers for when I have to use Windows and/or VMWare server for the complex windows installs.

I don't think it's any harder to use - just different. I like the ability to fix things and the community that almost always helps out with a solution.

- CH

[Erik Trybom]

Thinking yourself a computer expert (or at least an advanced user) when you've used Windows for several years is not entirely wrong. The reaction to Linux, "if I can't understand it then who can?" is also quite natural. I think most of us have gone through such a process. I know I have.

While it's a bit annoying, it is not a very big deal and it's definitely not something that can be avoided by some kind of disclaimer. Instead, what is needed is patience and knowledge. Politely point out to these people that they are wrong, why they are wrong, and ask them to reconsider their opinions on Linux. Then do it again and again every time there comes a new "expert" who voices these kind of compaints.

Why should we not just link them to the Linux is not Windows article and be done with it? Because Linux needs those "experts". They are interested in computers, they are potentially valuable community members, and they are likely to have some influence on the computer usage in their family or workplace. Every convert is an asset for Linux.

[ARhere]

It seems like the "windows experts" think linux will never be any good until it becomes a clone of windows. It makes me wonder why they even want to try something new.
:guitar:

Why I don't like KDE. Gnome gives my computer a "new PC" feeling even though it is just an X-client.

-AR