piracy killing open source

[karellen]

I guess the title says all. when someone can obtain practicaly all the programs he could ever want - for free, as in beer at least - it's very hard for people to see the alternative (Linux). for example, here in my country, 95% of users use only cracked products - Windows, Office, Photoshop, Corel, tons of games, everything. it's all about the time you spend downloading stuff from torrents. and there are many many example like this, in Asia, South America, Africa, and even in US or Europe. in all of those cases the argument - "Linux is free, Windows is not/software for Windows costs much money" is flawed from the beginning. because, let's be serious, very few are interested in having access to the sourcode, modifying it and so. they are just end user, not programmers
that's why, besides the moral issue of the aforementioned problem, I believe open source will have a very hard time penetrating these regions (and there are much more pirared version of Windows in the world than legal purchased one)...
thoughts?...

[Blue Heron]

100 % truth

I know people that never bought a game, and they have every windows game.

The solution is very easy:

Dongles


The problem is:
MS earns enough money anyway and the managers know that piracy in some degree is healthy for them.
I guess MS makes the most money with licenses of windows and office to companies and the public service.

The solution here is also easy:
Companies and public service should migrate their standard office workstations to linux.
Munich did so.

[DoctorMO]

It's not actually that acute, if open source is more developer friendly then the results that we product technically should be better.

If all these people committing copyright infringement are those practical people who won't do anything unless it does something new or more likely those people who copy what everyone else does; then we can expect them to move over to linux in the end anyway.

[falkTX]

I agree with you. But I also think Microsoft has something to do with it.
I remember that when Vista was about to get launched, M$ distributed a RTM preview version of it (they said only 10 members of MS as received it).
Well... 3 days later it was already on the web, in torrent file (I download it too at that time).
If the own Microsoft has piracy inside itself, who company doesn't have?

[karellen]

I agree with you. But I also think Microsoft has something to do with it.
I remember that when Vista was about to get launched, M$ distributed a RTM preview version of it (they said only 10 members of MS as received it).
Well... 3 days later it was already on the web, in torrent file (I download it too at that time).
If the own Microsoft has piracy inside itself, who company doesn't have?

I know. it's almost certain that MS encouraged, or at least tolerated, people the pirating of Windows. It's one of the main reason of their cvasi-monopolistic market share...

[Blue Heron]

It's not actually that acute, if open source is more developer friendly then the results that we product technically should be better.

this is not an open vs. closed source issue!
It's about costly and for free (in the sense of no $$$)

The pirates don't care about open and closed.

[DoctorMO]

this is not an open vs. closed source issue!
It's about costly and for free (in the sense of no $$$)

The pirates don't care about open and closed.

Would you read my conclusions and not just the first 5 words of what I say.

I meant to get across that even though they don't case about open vs closed the technical merits of an open system will produce better and more stable features faster than closed. If we assume this then in the end a lot of copyright infringers will use open source software because it'll be better than the alternatives in a practical manner.

To sum up, we shouldn't worry. Where the developers go, the people will follow.

[beast2k]

Interesting thread, I used to be one of the people you speak of, that is I had every application needed and whatever else I needed I downloaded with bit torrent or from newsgroups. You must consider the trouble one must go through to download the required apps unrar,unzip, run cracks, serial number generators, and all the while making sure that the downloaded and cracked app doesn't have some sort of "call home feature" that would get you into trouble. It's all a warped game played out by software vendors and programmers against the crackers. After a while you just get tired of it and want a few clicks in synaptic and it's installed nice, legal, and nothing had to be hacked out of it. My point is it just becomes to much of a pain to keep a running cracked version of windows and one huge reason for me to go to Linux was the time i was spending downloading installing looking for serial numbers etc. I have a life to live and I don't want to spend all my time with bit torrent. Once the windows users see how much easier to maintain Linux is they will switch. The time saved alone will make it worth it to them.

[rune0077]

If people can get Windows and Ubuntu for free, naturally, they're going to pick what suits their tastes the most. If that happens to be Windows, and if they have no moral issues getting it from a torrent, then that's what they'll choose.

The fault isn't pirating - the fault is, that Windows appeals to more people, either because these people have never heard of Linux, or because they need Windows for something that Linux can't do for them. Even without pirating, the majority of people still choose to pay for Windows, rather than download a Linux-distro for free, so I can't really see where piracy is making the situation any worse.

[karellen]

Interesting thread, I used to be one of the people you speak of, that is I had every application needed and whatever else I needed I downloaded with bit torrent or from newsgroups. You must consider the trouble one must go through to download the required apps unrar,unzip, run cracks, serial number generators, and all the while making sure that the downloaded and cracked app doesn't have some sort of "call home feature" that would get you into trouble. It's all a warped game played out by software vendors and programmers against the crackers. After a while you just get tired of it and want a few clicks in synaptic and it's installed nice, legal, and nothing had to be hacked out of it. My point is it just becomes to much of a pain to keep a running cracked version of windows and one huge reason for me to go to Linux was the time i was spending downloading installing looking for serial numbers etc. I have a life to live and I don't want to spend all my time with bit torrent. Once the windows users see how much easier to maintain Linux is they will switch. The time saved alone will make it worth it to them.

not just you ;). it's actually very hard to find somebody who didn't pirated anything. as for the time, I really don't know. consider the time spent of downloading&installing apps compared to the time spent to learn how to use a whole new OS, with all its particular apps, plus and minuses. it's up to a personal choice. and there's one more thing: people want to have the "best" programs in their class, or something like that, even if they use only let's say 50% of their feature (Photoshop - which is ridiculously if you ask me, it's the classic example).
to make a long story short, here in Romania MS Office 2007 Professional costs more than the medium month salary. that is self explanatory of why people pirate things

[karellen]

Even without pirating, the majority of people still choose to pay for Windows, rather than download a Linux-distro for free,
nope, here you are wrong. the majority won't pay. either because they can't (being too expensive) or because they don't want to. I asked all my friends this question - after previously showing them what's the deal with Linux- and they all said they'd rather switch complete to Linux than to pay thousands of $ for all the programs they are now using for me. make the same poll in India or China or Brazil or Kenya and see the results ;)

[rune0077]

nope, here you are wrong. the majority won't pay. either because they can't (being too expensive) or because they don't want to. I asked all my friends this question - after previously showing them what's the deal with Linux- and they all said they'd rather switch complete to Linux than to pay thousands of $ for all the programs they are now using for me. make the same poll in India or China or Brazil or Kenya and see the results ;)

Yeah, I guess you're right, depends on where you live. Still, I think that on a global scale, raising awareness of Linux and "promoting" it, as well as developing new open-source alternatives to Windows-software, will do a lot more for Linux, than would banishing piracy.

[karellen]

Yeah, I guess you're right, depends on where you live. Still, I think that on a global scale, raising awareness of Linux and "promoting" it, as well as developing new open-source alternatives to Windows-software, will do a lot more for Linux, than would banishing piracy.
yes, the only way to go is to show people there is another way, let them try it and some will probably remain loyal :)

[K.Mandla]

that's why, besides the moral issue of the aforementioned problem, I believe open source will have a very hard time penetrating these regions (and there are much more pirared version of Windows in the world than legal purchased one)...
Actually, my experience has been to the opposite, sort of. Inveterate pirates, once given the chance to download thousands upon thousands of programs for free -- and guilt-free -- find they prefer it to the old, illegal way.

Perhaps the trick is just showing them that there is an alternative to stealing.

[rune0077]

Actually, my experience has been to the opposite, sort of. Inveterate pirates, once given the chance to download thousands upon thousands of programs for free -- and guilt-free -- find they prefer it to the old, illegal way.

Perhaps the trick is just showing them that there is an alternative to stealing.

On the other hand, think of all those teenagers downloading illegal torrents these days, and ending up cramming their Windows-systems with spyware and viruses as a result. If they knew about Linux, many would happily give it a try, as long as it meant that they could keep downloading their torrents without having to worry about sideffects any more. Software pirates may actually be the ideal Linux-user of tomorrow.

[Blue Heron]

To sum up, we shouldn't worry. Where the developers go, the people will follow.

Yeah and developers need money, so Ubuntu should become a platform for closed source software e.g. games.

[Midwest-Linux]

Imagine downloading a cracked Vista or whatever and installing it and later doing online banking and credit card ordering on the internet with that OS and having that info "phone home" to some hacker or identity thieves?

Aren't people the least bit concerned with trojans, backdoors and malware downloading pirated stuff? That alone should scare even more people than just the moral thing.

[IHATEDLINK]

If people can get Windows and Ubuntu for free, naturally, they're going to pick what suits their tastes the most. If that happens to be Windows, and if they have no moral issues getting it from a torrent, then that's what they'll choose.

The fault isn't pirating - the fault is, that Windows appeals to more people, either because these people have never heard of Linux, or because they need Windows for something that Linux can't do for them.

I agree, but, hey, i live in Argentina and not a single one of my friends has heard of Linux. I don't know anyone also that has a legal purchased version of Windows( at least that they bought a PC with windows pre-installed)
I do think that maybe if Microsoft implants more (a LOT more) anti-piracy stuff on their OS's some people will switch but i don't think so.
In Argentina i think that 98% of the computers have Microsoft Windows XP (I also didn't see any Windows Vista around)

So bottom line:
Piracy isn't killing open source, people are, THEY JUST DON´T KNOW LINUX for them the only alternative to windows is a mac and that's it.

[popch]

They should make laws making it illegal for anyone under the age of - say - 21 to use Linux.

[karellen]

Actually, my experience has been to the opposite, sort of. Inveterate pirates, once given the chance to download thousands upon thousands of programs for free -- and guilt-free -- find they prefer it to the old, illegal way.

Perhaps the trick is just showing them that there is an alternative to stealing.

hm...Japan is the 24th state in terms of gdp per capita. Romania is 64th. so you see the difference ;)

[Blue Heron]

Imagine downloading a cracked Vista or whatever and installing it and later doing online banking and credit card ordering on the internet with that OS and having that info "phone home" to some hacker or identity thieves?

Lol, they are pirates they don't do online banking! They steal!

[rune0077]

Lol, they are pirates they don't do online banking! They steal!

Well, to be fair, they don't steal, they infringe copyrights. There's a difference, legally speaking.

[lswest]

They should make laws making it illegal for anyone under the age of - say - 21 to use Linux.

Oh no!!!! Means i have to avoid the police for 4 years!! :P

[Blue Heron]

Well, to be fair, they don't steal, they infringe copyrights. There's a difference, legally speaking.

lol, what do you think how many different laws apply to different individuals of the community?

Pirates not only steal immaterial goods form MS but they also don't pay taxes.

[original_jamingrit]

Just whip up a themed version of Ubuntu - Arrbuntu: Leaked Build Edition.

It's still open source software, just make it sound like it was stolen. If people are foolish enough to always think proprietary==quality, they could probably be fooled by a little misdirection. Or they just like pirates.

[Kernel Sanders]

Personally, I wouldn't say piracy is killing Open Source, i'd say lack of money is.

Put it this way, if me and 10 other programmers wanted to set up an open source linux games company, how would we all live? How would we make money so we could feed, cloth, and house ourselves?

If we had a website it would need to be riddled with ads, yet that would mostly pay for bandwidth, hosting, and premesis, if it would even cover that.

If a good open source business model could be found, it would take off in a big way. Firefox with it's google revenue is the exception rather than the rule btw. I can't see how you'd get serious money from google to fund the development of a linux game that was open source tbh.

[DoctorMO]

Yeah and developers need money, so Ubuntu should become a platform for closed source software e.g. games.

I'm an open source developer and I have plenty of money, in fact do you want some? I'm rolling in it. Your dead wrong about open source and free software not being able to make money, and I don't think you know anything of the industry at all.


Put it this way, if me and 10 other programmers wanted to set up an open source linux games company, how would we all live? How would we make money so we could feed, cloth, and house ourselves?

Take a look at Savage, most blockbuster games these days are online games, people pay a subscription to join well run servers. Plus the point of open source is not to bare all the costs yourself, you don't have to do everything. "A task shared is a task halved"

[popch]

I'm an open source developer and I have plenty of money

Does the fact that you have plenty of money derive from your writing software, or do live off other sources of income?

I am not implying anything at all. It's just that I never could understand the business model of open source authorship, especially not for 'useless' software which does not even need heavy support.

[DoctorMO]

Does the fact that you have plenty of money derive from your writing software, or do live off other sources of income?

Not really, a lot of the development work is paid for, a lot of training and other services are not cheap.

Just because some people are not willing to pay for things to be made doesn't mean that everyone is like that. I'd like to get more ubuntu users investing $10 a month into projects, imagen the progress that could be made if the people here helped themselves. I think this failure may be due to a lack of organisation.

[DUfire]

They should make laws making it illegal for anyone under the age of - say - 21 to use Linux.

Is there a good, valid reason for that claim? >>;
I'm only 16 and I can navigate my way around the OS as well as any older user who's been using it for the same amount of time.

[original_jamingrit]

older people are just as good at causing trouble as younger people, it's just that older people are more experienced at it.

[popch]

Is there a good, valid reason for that claim? >>;
I'm only 16 and I can navigate my way around the OS as well as any older user who's been using it for the same amount of time.

Better, I presume. Younger people learn frightfully fast.

The good and valid reason for that claim: it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion to make using Linux seem more attractive. I suspect that quite a few young people download and use Windows because that's claimed to be illegal and not out of an intrinsic preference.

[Blue Heron]

I'm an open source developer and I have plenty of money, in fact do you want some? I'm rolling in it. Your dead wrong about open source and free software not being able to make money, and I don't think you know anything of the industry at all.

Please tell me how you got rich. Do you have our own company? Would you pay for internships?

[cardinals_fan]

I'm an open source developer and I have plenty of money, in fact do you want some? I'm rolling in it. Your dead wrong about open source and free software not being able to make money, and I don't think you know anything of the industry at all.

If you could spare a little... :razz:

[DUfire]

Better, I presume. Younger people learn frightfully fast.

The good and valid reason for that claim: it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion to make using Linux seem more attractive. I suspect that quite a few young people download and use Windows because that's claimed to be illegal and not out of an intrinsic preference.

I definitely see where you're coming from with that, then.
Thinking about it - you're probably right.
Unless we get some people my age who are genuinely interested in learning and maybe contributing, it's not really helping the image Ubuntu/Linux is portraying.

I know I used Windows because it's all I had knowledge in, until I started doing some research a few weeks ago I didn't know anything about Linux or the ideals behind it, except that the main icon was a penguin.

[drascus]

Well first off these people are not safe by having a cracked version of windows. The backdoors that windows puts into their programs still exist as there is no way to get them out. Also the spyware that microsoft puts there to keep tabs on their users also cannot be removed. So they should be worried because they are still subject to the terms of the EULA that MS is under even though they haven't paid for it. for instance last year 50,000 computers just stoped working because MS sent a signal that just made them inoperable. This could easily be done to people using unauthorized versions if MS decideds to. I think the reason that they haven't is that it hasen't made a noticable dent in their sales yet. But I would be concerned. So let your friends know that it might be in their best interest to stop doing this. It would suck if they lost all their work for using an unauthorized version. I don't think this is an issue for Free Software and opensource. Because these companies are locking down their software tighter and tighter all the time. pretty soon their will be technology that even if you crack it like blue ray their will be updated codes all the time and unless you have access to "genuine microsoft" code it will just lock you out one day.

[fwojciec]

I can't be bothered to look for links now, sorry, but I've read recently that the number of linux users in recent years rose by more than 100% and that the number of open source projects/lines of free code written is expanding exponentially...

Aaa, what the hell, here are the links:
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/03/14/0419252.shtml
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8454912761.html

If this is the "killing" then I want more "killing" ;)

[original_jamingrit]

.... until I started doing some research a few weeks ago I didn't know anything about Linux or the ideals behind it, except that the main icon was a penguin.

I know it probably wasn't, but if that was your reason for switching, then... DAMN GOOD REASON!

[Dr. C]

I guess the title says all. when someone can obtain practicaly all the programs he could ever want - for free, as in beer at least - it's very hard for people to see the alternative (Linux). for example, here in my country, 95% of users use only cracked products - Windows, Office, Photoshop, Corel, tons of games, everything. it's all about the time you spend downloading stuff from torrents. and there are many many example like this, in Asia, South America, Africa, and even in US or Europe. in all of those cases the argument - "Linux is free, Windows is not/software for Windows costs much money" is flawed from the beginning. because, let's be serious, very few are interested in having access to the sourcode, modifying it and so. they are just end user, not programmers
that's why, besides the moral issue of the aforementioned problem, I believe open source will have a very hard time penetrating these regions (and there are much more pirared version of Windows in the world than legal purchased one)...
thoughts?...

I have to agree. Piracy particularly, of Microsoft software, is a major impediment to the growth of Free Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS). Consider what would happen if only 20 % of the pirates of Microsoft Windows switched to GNU / Linux. The rate of GNU / Linux use in the desktop marketplace would increase to between 5% and 14%. Take the conservative Business Software Alliance figures for piracy http://www.bsa.org/country/Research%20and%20Statistics.aspx and do the math.

[toupeiro]

The solution is very easy:

Dongles


.

EW!!! Yes, I want my parallel port and all my USB ports tied up with pieces of plastic paranoia. Here is a very real and simple truth. MOST dongles are merely an ohm resister. Anyone with some basic electronics knowledge and a USB or DB25 pin-out (usually less than a $1.00 at your local electronics stores bargain bin) could make a dongle in a few minutes.

The root cause of piracy is people who cannot afford a products retail cost, so they resort to stealing it. Or, simply that people like something for nothing (in a monetary sense.) As awareness of open source continues to grow, I think Open Source will start lessening the accounts of piracy. Why pirate something when I can get something, usually better, for free legally?

[DUfire]

I know it probably wasn't, but if that was your reason for switching, then... DAMN GOOD REASON!

Haha, I think that was PART of it.
I mean, how could you resist the sense of community and open-source-'ness' of Ubuntu-Linux? :P

[Blue Heron]

Anyone with some basic electronics knowledge and a USB or DB25 pin-out (usually less than a $1.00 at your local electronics stores bargain bin) could make a dongle in a few minutes.

lol, state of the art dongles are unbreakable

[JacobRogers]

I think of piracy as something kids do, kids with little money and too much time on their hands. My preconceptions could be wrong though. Perhaps in Romania and other places piracy is more main stream (but I wonder it the little money/too much time situation is usually true).

In my mind free libre software is the best thing to ever happen to computers and I think if more people knew about the benefits and philosophy behind it they may switch. But also at the same time I've told people about it before and the whole concept seemed to go over their head or they were just not interested. So I guess it is true that not everybody cares about FLOSS.

[DUfire]

I think of piracy as something kids do, kids with little money and too much time on their hands. My preconceptions could be wrong though. Perhaps in Romania and other places piracy is more main stream (but I wonder it the little money/too much time situation is usually true).

In my mind free libre software is the best thing to ever happen to computers and I think if more people knew about the benefits and philosophy behind it they may switch. But also at the same time I've told people about it before and the whole concept seemed to go over their head or they were just not interested. So I guess it is true that not everybody cares about FLOSS.

Israel.
According to my friend all his friends AND his parents pirate anything and everything...
Sweden is just now cracking down on PirateBay, but it's still one of the largest pirating countries.

[popch]

There was a thread in this forum not too long ago in which Bill Gates was reported to say that he was quite all right with people pirating 'his' OS as long those people did not use competing products. The reason was that those people were going to buy his products sooner or later, while those using Linux were completely lost to him.

[toupeiro]

lol, state of the art dongles are unbreakable

Thats funny. I got one circa 2008 thats USB and a combination of files and electronics. Doesn't look very unbreakable to me. :) If someone has a will to steal a piece of software, there isn't a dongle made that can stop that from happening. I've seen dongles for software that costs upwards of 20K duplicated or cracked. I would just prefer that the mainstream did not adopt something so last 2 decades. If I have a site license application I want to install on 1000 PC's, I don't want a thousand dongles to deal with. Even if the dongle is network capable, If an application costs enough to develop a network capable dongle for it, I certainly wouldn't want to lose access to my application if there was a network problem. Time is money, and vendor Dongles require too much of both.

Dongles != state of the art.

[|{urse]

just wanted to point out that i usually download suse, fedora etc for personal use from torrent sites. usually pirate bay. bacause thay are the fastest. I know im not the only one who does this. What exactly does this thread mean to accomplish? Kind of like the whole thought behind marijuana legalization, If it were legal it would be less appealing. But linux users are smarter than the average bear and im glad not everyone is using it. Let them have their virus infested cracked versions of xp and vista, Let them have their pirated games but also let us have their fc8 .iso they failed to figure out how to install! Vive la bandwidth!
:lolflag:

[Blue Heron]

If someone has a will to steal a piece of software, there isn't a dongle made that can stop that from happening.

lol, when the software is completely depended on the dongle you need to revise engineer it - good luck

I think a dongle is a good piece of trusted computing, i don't want such chips on motherboards.

And where is the problem - games have DVD protections, so you need the DVD, instead of inserting the DVD you plug in the dongle to play.
But anyway PC is dead long life X-Box and PS3.

[madjr]

Even without pirating, the majority of people still choose to pay for Windows, rather than download a Linux-distro for free, so I can't really see where piracy is making the situation any worse.

I think you mean in your country Denmark which is not a poor country.

90% of world is sub developed and poor. Most have enough trouble just getting food in their table (if they have 1)

I don't think "choosing to pay for Windows, office, photoshop, etc." is realistic.

Thats why people pirate.

They don't use FOSS for 2 (two) simple reasons:

1- Because they can get what their friends use for free (aka piracy)

2- Because they can get what their friends use for free (aka piracy)

[toupeiro]

lol, when the software is completely depended on the dongle you need to revise engineer it - good luck

I think a dongle is a good piece of trusted computing, i don't want such chips on motherboards.

And where is the problem - games have DVD protections, so you need the DVD, instead of inserting the DVD you plug in the dongle to play.
But anyway PC is dead long life X-Box and PS3.

Luck has nothing to do with it. :) Get a job as a software packager for Windows and you will see its not altogether horribly difficult. I'd say a good estimate would be an hour (2 at the most) of somebodies time if they knew software packaging and a little bit of electronics. As I said, in most cases its looking for a specific level of resistance. (very rarely will vendors travel outside of this method because of the expense they would have to incur to do so, and charge back to their customers who would protest spending hundreds to thousands per "security device") Not that those situations don't exist, but they are not the norm. Now, a well designed dongle can be sensitive down to the thousandths in ohm resistance, but all that means is you don't by a cheap ohm resister. From a software standpoint, you can dependency walk the DLL's or EXE's with a free tool available from Microsoft and with minimal effort (depends.exe), you can identify the application files which are embedded around the dongle and see exactly what it wants because its going to show you the Library calls made to each file.

Not that I am promoting piracy, I think if the software is important enough to you to go to these measures, you should be buying it, but at the same time, I'm illustrating some basic steps that can be utilized around dongles to demonstrate that they are not, by any means, unbreakable.. Personally, I think hostid hashes derrived from several aspects of system hardware and then embedded into a license file are far more secure. I'd take the security of something like FlexLM over a dongle any day.

[rune0077]

I think you mean in your country Denmark which is not a poor country.


Yes, I stated as much in my next post, and I think you're absolutely right.

[Blue Heron]

As I said, in most cases its looking for a specific level of resistance. (very rarely will vendors travel outside of this method because of the expense they would have to incur to do so, and charge back to their customers who would protest spending hundreds to thousands per "security device")

wtf are you talking about :confused: :confused: :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongle#Problems_with_software-protection_dongles :

Modern dongles include built-in strong encryption and use fabrication techniques designed to thwart reverse engineering. Typical dongles also now contain non-volatile memory — key parts of the software may actually be stored and executed on the dongle. Thus dongles have become secure cryptoprocessors that execute inaccessible program instructions that may be input to the cryptoprocessor only in encrypted form. The original secure cryptoprocessor was designed for copy protection of personal computer software (see US Patent 4,168,396, Sept 18, 1979) to provide more security than dongles could then provide. See also bus encryption.

[boomtisk]

Interestingly enough, only the self-proclaimed "non-techy" people I know pirate Windows, Office, etc like there's no tomorrow (even my ex-boss who was using them for his business, I fondly remember the WGA warning that greeted me every time I booted up his second laptop) and think it's okay because Microsoft is evil and yadda yadda. If I tell them that I actually bought Windows XP, they look at me funny.

My friends who're similarly nerdy as I am feel the excact opposite about piracy because they grew up reading PC magazines like I did. I guess casual computer users simply don't care that they're stealing software due to its intangible nature and in turn couldn't care less about using FOSS software because they can get everything for free from their computer-savvy cousin/neighbour anyway. In my experience, the only way to get people like that interested in Linux is trying to convince them that it's more secure, as they're usually familiar with the horror stories about Windows's security issues that are occasionally mentioned on TV.

[DUfire]

I think the point still stands - who wants an annoying piece of plastic sticking out of their USB ports?
I think it's just a paranoid thing for most people.

[smoker]

piracy isn't killing open source, nothing is, it is thriving, and piracy isn't killing closed source either, in monetary terms it is probably only evening out the exorbitant costs of buying some of these operating systems and applications: fair priced software would probably make these companies even more money!

most people are honest, and would willingly pay a fair price for a proprietory operating system rather than use a pirated copy. the fact is though, companies like microsoft rip people off with prices, and p*** people off with severe restrictions, spyware, drm, wga. in the end this is what is helping more and more people to choose open source.

[Blue Heron]

most people are honest,

haha, as honest as wishful thinking

[toupeiro]

wtf are you talking about :confused: :confused: :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongle#Problems_with_software-protection_dongles :

Modern dongles include built-in strong encryption and use fabrication techniques designed to thwart reverse engineering. Typical dongles also now contain non-volatile memory — key parts of the software may actually be stored and executed on the dongle. Thus dongles have become secure cryptoprocessors that execute inaccessible program instructions that may be input to the cryptoprocessor only in encrypted form. The original secure cryptoprocessor was designed for copy protection of personal computer software (see US Patent 4,168,396, Sept 18, 1979) to provide more security than dongles could then provide. See also bus encryption.

I know exactly what I am talking about. Do you understand any of what you are reading?? non-Volatile memory == flash drives, hard drives etc etc.... All Non-volatile means is that it can retain stored information without being powered.. Its nothing more complex or secure than that.. Do you think that because this is now in the form of a "dongle" that its any less accessable?? All I am reading there in "fabrication techniques" is some layer to verify a genuine key, which is usually done by having to match a specific level of OHM resistance as a key element for the software on the dongle to be accessable and software outside of the dongle to use the software on the dongle.. You still have to supply two elements. Anything in non-volatile memory on the original dongle, and the right level of resistance. I've actually taken many different types of dongles apart and verified this. Does this keep piracy down a significant amount on dongle enabled software? sure it does. Its a costly approach, but its effective. Does that mean I know how every dongle is built? No, but I can definately object (which I am) to the statement you made in that they are "unbreakable" Wikipedia is only worthwhile to quote if you understand what you are quoting. If you got from that statement that they are unbreakable, I hope you don't start a software company with that as your slogan. :) Think about it.. after about your third piece of software requiring a dongle, a persons next purchase is probably going to be to a software company that really understands how one way hashes work that won't require having to put USB hubs on all their workstations to support dongles :-)

The only way for dongles to be more secure is to combine another factor to them (e.g. smart cards, or something similar to RSA secure tokens). But why do this when you can create a single hash based on several different unique hardware component addresses or signatures to secure your software? Its an age old argument amongst software developers which one is the most secure method. Dongles add security by being a physical lock, but become impractical once you have to manage more than 100 of them. One way hardware hashes, while they cannot be "reverse engeineered" (otherwise they couldn't be called a hash) can be vulnerable depending on if you have a network versus local hashed license, or if you ever need to upgrade your hardware (thus invalidating your hash and you have to get a new hash created).

[Blue Heron]

is some layer to verify a genuine key, which is usually done by having to match a specific level of OHM resistance as a key element for the software to accept the dongle.

1. this is reverse engineering
2. OHM resistance ???

How do you want to decrypt the information stored inside the dongle, which is needed to run the program?

Don't tell me you just readout with a multimeter.

[popch]

I know exactly what I am talking about. (...) non-Volatile memory == flash drives, hard drives etc etc...

Without a doubt you know that very thing.

However, the passage you are quoting talks about something else:


.. key parts of the software may actually be stored and executed on the dongle. Thus dongles have become secure cryptoprocessors that execute inaccessible program instructions ...

The claim appears to be that there was a processor in the dongle.

This does not contradict your claims about the dongles you encountered. It does, however, state that there exist other technologies used in dongles than plain resistors.

[toupeiro]

Without a doubt you know that very thing.

However, the passage you are quoting talks about something else:



The claim appears to be that there was a processor in the dongle.

This does not contradict your claims about the dongles you encountered. It does, however, state that there exist other technologies used in dongles than plain resistors.

oh no doubt there does exist other technologies. I've never claimed to know how "ALL" dongles work, but I have worked with plenty of them, and I've yet to encounter one as sophisticated as the one being described. :) My whole point, however, in even saying anything is that its foolish to make statements that something is unhackable. What I read, is that they have become cryptoprocessors based on the function implied, but I did not get from that quote that they contain an on-board cryptoprocessor.

[toupeiro]

1. this is reverse engineering
2. OHM resistance ???

How do you want to decrypt the information stored inside the dongle, which is needed to run the program?

Don't tell me you just readout with a multimeter.

That would depend entirely on the encryption algorhythm. Since this is merely a debate and there are no specifics, its sort of a mute point. :) In any case, you are missing my point.

[Blue Heron]

oh no doubt there does exist other technologies. I've never claimed to know how "ALL" dongles work, but I have worked with plenty of them, and I've yet to encounter one as sophisticated as the one being described. :) My whole point, however, in even saying anything is that its foolish to make statements that something is unhackable.

But it's ridiculous, I'm talking about state of the art trusted computing technology and you tell me about some 80s hardware :(

And "unbreakable" doesn't mean that a state of the art reverse engineering company cannot reverse engineer it.

"unbreakable" is a metaphor for extremely difficult and nontrivial.
There are good encryption methods, otherwise the global monetary transactions wouldn't be via the internet, these methods are "unbreakable".

You are missing the point here, you are tell how specific mechanisms could be encountered, in the sense of that all dongles are easily breakable by you.


Anyone with some basic electronics knowledge and a USB or DB25 pin-out (usually less than a $1.00 at your local electronics stores bargain bin) could make a dongle in a few minutes.

really, are you sure?
cryptoprocessors in a few minutes?

[toupeiro]

But it's ridiculous, I'm talking about state of the art trusted computing technology and you tell me about some 80s hardware :(

And "unbreakable" doesn't mean that a state of the art reverse engineering company cannot reverse engineer it.

"unbreakable" is a metaphor for extremely difficult and nontrivial.
There are good encryption methods, otherwise the global monetary transactions wouldn't be via the internet, these methods are "unbreakable".

the 80's? Whose being ridiculous :rolleyes: Most of the dongles I'm referring to were designed within the last 5-6 years. I hardly think the dongle industry has experienced leaps and bounds advancements since the last time I had to fix one that got taken out in a power surge. (due to the company being out of business -- one more reason dongles are a bad idea)

[Blue Heron]

I'm referring to were designed within the last 5-6 years.

how is it that I'm talking about the future and you about the past?

It's like I'm saying: modern graphics cards can run Crysis and you say: no way there are no cards which an render it

[toupeiro]

how is it that I'm talking about the future and you about the past?

It's like I'm saying: modern graphics cards can run Crysis and you say: no way there are no cards which an render it

How do you figure you are talking about the future. You are indicating you are talking about the present, I have indicated I've received dongles from vendors as of this year that in no way represent what you are talking about. Therefore, how am I talking about the past? Perhaps you should learn to represent your case a bit more clearly. If you're done making insinuations about the date relevance of my information (which you are grossly incorrect about) then I'm going to move on to another thread.

Edit: Within the last 5-6 years also includes January 2008. I realize its been a whopping 3 months of time since then, how "obsolete" of me.. What my statement means is that I can refer back 5-6 years in regards to different types of dongles I've had to work with. Its easy to sit and read wikipedia all day and pretend to know something about the kinds of dongles the software industry actually utilizes, but once you actually work in it a while, you'll see the solutions you are talking about are so very rarely used because of cost and impracticality. There are plenty of better options than flaky, physical, expensive dongles that are just as secure if not more.

[Blue Heron]

then I'm going to move on to another thread.

bye bye sceptic


I've received dongles from vendors as of this year that in no way represent what you are talking about.
hehe, don't buy crap - buy a good one $200+

[DoctorMO]

Blue Heron, I don't think I like you. Almost everything you say is incorrect and misleading and you manage to say things in a very rude manner. I'd feel better if you apologised to toupeiro.

[BatsotO]

piracy isn't killing open source, nothing is, it is thriving, and piracy isn't killing closed source either, in monetary terms it is probably only evening out the exorbitant costs of buying some of these operating systems and applications: fair priced software would probably make these companies even more money!

most people are honest, and would willingly pay a fair price for a proprietory operating system rather than use a pirated copy. the fact is though, companies like microsoft rip people off with prices, and p*** people off with severe restrictions, spyware, drm, wga. in the end this is what is helping more and more people to choose open source.

Globally maybe not. In region where pirated software dominated the realm, open software development is almost 0 rate, this also implies on closed software. With million copies of pirated windows, bill gate is still well paid, but that is not the case with local software development. What the point in developing software (commercial closed software) if in the end people would use the cracked version. They use cracked windows, what stopped them from used other cracked software ? Even using open source os wont stop them from using cracked software. It is easy to install cracked PS with wine. Maybe it wont kill giants like adobe and microsoft, But not the case with small companies especially local companies.

What piracy killing is not microsoft. In internet cafe business many many of internet cafe with legal windows and legal linux having hard time because their market is shared with pirated windows internet cafe. So instead of killing the software company and open source software, it put the honest people whose concern about the legality of their software out off business. This will cause more people using pirated software, investors would think millions of time to invest money on developing commercial software, then kids will know that they cant make money from making software, then no kids would learn how to code. If we're lucky they wont learn how to crack either.

[aysiu]

There was a thread in this forum not too long ago in which Bill Gates was reported to say that he was quite all right with people pirating 'his' OS as long those people did not use competing products. The reason was that those people were going to buy his products sooner or later, while those using Linux were completely lost to him. I got tired of trying to find those old threads so I just posted the quotations from Bill in my blog (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/the-truth-about-open-source-and-piracy/).

[BatsotO]

He's still rich with 3 millions of his software pirated. Imagine how rich he is if 10% of them do pay (in china only isn't it?). But this is a bad example. Like I said if they use pirated os, there's no moral obligations to use legal softwares, and not all softwares belongs to microsoft.
This create unhealthy business competition both in developer level and user level.
In developer level not all software developer can take piracy the way bill gates do. If bill said that he's fine with piracy, people would have excuse that other software is ok to be pirated. This kill small software developers.
In user level, companies which spend big buck on legal software must work harder to reach break even point. And with their competitor freely use pirated software, which greatly cut the cost, the work is made even harder.
For example I run internet cafe with ubuntu for about 50 cent an hour, so do my competitors with legal windows, and we go along find, market shared almost equally. But when one or two other internet cafe with pirated os set the price below ours, the harmony broken and we fight for our survival, literally.
In 2004 when my company from win2000 to ubuntu i have 37 internet cafes, this year there's only 7 of them still running, I cannot say they run well, The major competitors are those pirated os internet cafe. That in one business field only. The piracy, my friends, is lethal, maybe not to microsoft but for low level low profit business like I run.

Maybe if I put cracked ubuntu full version+serial key in some rapid share or torrent they will get more download than from ubuntu.com

[Blue Heron]

Blue Heron, I don't think I like you.

Maybe that isn't important.

[rune0077]

Okay, said it before, say it again: Piracy is here to stay, so ultimately it's fairly irrelevant whether it hurts Open Source or not. If it's a choice between piracy and Open Source, then "bye bye Open Source," 'coz there's millions of teenagers out there, for whom piracy is perfectly legit, part of every day life, and morally acceptable, who really couldn't care less about Open Source.

Much as I care about Open Source, I care more about the coming generation and their way of life, so if I had to choose, I'm coming down on the side of Piracy.

[eragon100]

I am 16, I have had it for half a year now and I can us it fine.

WTF? Why shouldn't I be allowed to use linux :(

[Christmas]

That's true, but mainly for home users. For example business companies, public offices or schools usually use licensed software for which they paid. Same applies to internet cafes, due to the risks of having a control. However things are starting to evolve, if you remember the incident one or two years ago in Iasi when three persons were caught for sharing illegal music and movies (if I recall correctly). If people had enough money, the piracy rate would be lower than currently is. There was also a Microsoft initiative at my college to offer educational tools under the title "Academic Resource Kit' on a free (as in gratis) DVD. DVD includes .NET Framework, Visual Studio, SQL Server and some more. On front of it it says "This product can be reproduced, copied, duplicated, replicated, distributed". It's like a half-response to Ubuntu's ShipIt initiative I guess.

[SOULRiDER]

I do not agree, I know people that pirated everything they had, they didnt even buy windows, just pirated everything, windows, games, all applications. Now they are using Linux.

Using Linux and OSS is not only about the price, its the other benefits, like stability, security and freedom, no propietary software can do that, even if its for free.

[SOULRiDER]

Okay, said it before, say it again: Piracy is here to stay, so ultimately it's fairly irrelevant whether it hurts Open Source or not. If it's a choice between piracy and Open Source, then "bye bye Open Source," 'coz there's millions of teenagers out there, for whom piracy is perfectly legit, part of every day life, and morally acceptable, who really couldn't care less about Open Source.

Much as I care about Open Source, I care more about the coming generation and their way of life, so if I had to choose, I'm coming down on the side of Piracy.

I am not using OSS because of the price, I like it that in mostc ases the software quality is just better than most propietary software, its stable and we can modify it to make the software what WE want, and not what some company wants. With OSS nothing is forced on you, you can chose what you want.

[popch]

I am 16, I have had it for half a year now and I can us it fine.

WTF? Why shouldn't I be allowed to use linux :(

Why, what makes you think you are not allowed to?

[karellen]

That's true, but mainly for home users. For example business companies, public offices or schools usually use licensed software for which they paid. Same applies to internet cafes, due to the risks of having a control. However things are starting to evolve, if you remember the incident one or two years ago in Iasi when three persons were caught for sharing illegal music and movies (if I recall correctly). If people had enough money, the piracy rate would be lower than currently is. There was also a Microsoft initiative at my college to offer educational tools under the title "Academic Resource Kit' on a free (as in gratis) DVD. DVD includes .NET Framework, Visual Studio, SQL Server and some more. On front of it it says "This product can be reproduced, copied, duplicated, replicated, distributed". It's like a half-response to Ubuntu's ShipIt initiative I guess.
this is not such a big thing, as visual studio 2008 express edition is free to download anyway

[plun]

I know. it's almost certain that MS encouraged, or at least tolerated, people the pirating of Windows. It's one of the main reason of their cvasi-monopolistic market share...

Yes they do....

If You're Going To Steal Software, Steal From Us: Microsoft Exec


Raikes said Microsoft isn't about to abandon efforts to track down those who illegally copy and use its products. However, he said Microsoft has to balance that approach with the recognition that users of purloined software could one day become legitimate customers.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=0P5Z0TWUHKBEOQSNDLRSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=198000211&_requestid=645426

So its a "business" idea....:(

[rune0077]

I am not using OSS because of the price, I like it that in mostc ases the software quality is just better than most propietary software, its stable and we can modify it to make the software what WE want, and not what some company wants. With OSS nothing is forced on you, you can chose what you want.

Certainly true. Price is part of it, for me, but not price alone. If did purchase Vista, after all, so it's not that I can't afford to buy Windows - I can and do. But I just liked Ubuntu more than Vista, which is why I'm using that now.

The point I was trying to make had nothing to do with price. The OP just made it sound like it came down to a choice between piracy and open source. I don't think that's the case, though, and I don't think piracy is really hurting open source. After all, both seem to steadily growing and spreading, and one does in no way seem to hinder the other.

[madjr]

Certainly true. Price is part of it, for me, but not price alone. If did purchase Vista, after all, so it's not that I can't afford to buy Windows - I can and do. But I just liked Ubuntu more than Vista, which is why I'm using that now.

The point I was trying to make had nothing to do with price. The OP just made it sound like it came down to a choice between piracy and open source. I don't think that's the case, though, and I don't think piracy is really hurting open source. After all, both seem to steadily growing and spreading, and one does in no way seem to hinder the other.

probably true

as OSS is an alternative to:

privative software
pirateware
freeware

pirateware was here before most OSS, so it's something you gotta live with.

also pirateware was really killing game developers, thats why 80% of them moved to consoles so fast. You can still pirate on a console, but it's a harder and some parents don't care much.

pirateware is surelly another barrier for open source, but am sure we can over come it as long as OSS keeps growing like rune0077 said :)