Serious question about your approach to responding to threads

[st0n3cutt3r]

I get the distinct impression, reading the original post in threads, and the various replies that (sometimes) pour in that most people never actually read the content of the post.

Why do I get this impression? For one thing, a lot of replies just don't make sense, or completely fail to address the issue at hand. Can we chalk that one up to anything other than "Post Count +1"?

I was sorely tempted to include a poll in this thread, because we do love our polls; read the options, make your vote, ignore the post. This is the type of thing that I reserve Falls_On_Face smilies, and the term "epic FAIL" for.

I'd say there's at least a 50% chance that most people will not get this far in this post. It's a little pathetic, and certainly disgruntling.

I have a roommate who likes to hear himself talk. He stands next to me and starts talking about something, but doesn't actually care if I hear him. I literally put on headphones and watch a movie or tv show on my computer, and he will happily talk until he's had is fill, and then walks off mumbling about something else. This is not what I want in the ubuntu forums!

I am well aware that not every word of every post merits being read, and few really are worth being read more than a couple of times unless it's something worth discussing, or of particular interest, but darnit! When I ask a question, I do not want this to happen: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=752052 Read it, understand my frustration, then answer me honestly: "Are you guilty of this?"

I, honestly read all posts in a thread that I am going to contribute to BEFORE posting up to about 3 pages. If the thread is longer than 3 pages, I'll absolutely read the original post (what else would I have to talk about if not a response to it?), at least the first few replies, and then the last page or two to make sure that the issue hasn't been resolved and nobody bothered to notice.

Not everyone has that kind of time, I know, but it really is quite disrespectful to respond to a question with a statement or suggestion that in reality has no value what-so-ever. Think about it, please!

[LaRoza]

Yes, longer posts do tend to get summarized quickly (usually based on the title).

To counter this, it is best to keep the title informative, the post short and descriptive and well formatted.

The question should be obvious from the post, and the title should reflect that as best it can.

For yours, it is slightly misleading. Although I did read it carefully, I found why some people would be mislead.


The title doesn't reflect the question for one. Yes, they did seem to answer the title.
The first sentence is a very poor introduction. It states nothing of use. It should have been at the end if written at all
This is the only question "Anybody have any other ideas where I might find one?". This should have been the first sentence. (See rewrite)



Your title: Building an ubuntu-based Media Center PC



I know that this is technically a hardware question, but it's not a hardware problem; it's a leisure activity, and I'm not sure where else to post this if not here.

Basically I recently upgraded my computer, and have almost enough (old) hardware to build a second computer. I would like to buy a microATX case though, because it would be smaller and more attractive near my TV. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811108060)

I really just need a microATX s939 board, but I can't seem to find one online at newegg, tigerdirect, zipzoomfly, nor pricegrabber (they had one, but it was out of stock).

Anybody have any other ideas where I might find one? (I looked on eBay, but it's going to be rough getting one of those without spending a lot of money to guarantee the win... also I don't like ebay, so I'd like to avoid it if possible)

Any help would be much appreciated!

==============================
I am aware that new CPUs are very cheap and offer a signifcant performance advantage, but my roommate suggested that I try to recycle my old hardware by turning it into something useful like a media center pc. not something that will ever need a lot of processing power, a


Title: Need microATX s939 board



I need to buy a microATX s939 motherboard. Anyone know where I can get one?

I have tried newegg, tigerdirect, zipzoomfly, and pricegrabber but couldn't find one.

I would prefer not to buy off eBay.

Possibly explain why you need it, but that isn't needed

Any help would be much appreciated!



My version has a title that reflects your purpose, the question is stated clearly up front, it explains what you have tried, and it tells what you don't want. If you want a question answered, you should ask it. I admit it, when I first follow the link, I read the tile, skimmed the body and read the responses. During this, I didn't get the question at all. I had to read it over carefully. People don't read on the internet; they skim. This is normal and it should be taken into account.

See the link in my sig, it has a nice article on how to ask questions.

[st0n3cutt3r]

I am building an ubuntu-based media center PC.

Yes, that is literally my intent. Could I have said "I need a s939 microATX board"? Sure! Did it occur to me that that might get me equally good results, if not better? Sure! Was I afraid that some (no offense - this is how feelings usually come out in these scenarios) "idiot mod" would move, or worse, delete (yeah, yeah, move to 'locked' forums !deletes) my thread and leave me without an answer still? You bet!

Do I expect that if I take the time to write out a descriptive thread, even providing specific links to fast, quick information that someone who wants to reply will read any, some, or most of it? yes.... this isn't 4chan; it's linux users. I told my 4c friend about it, and he said that he expected more out of linux users just based on the stereotype.

I know everyone's not perfect. I wrote a deliberately deceptive title so my thread wouldn't get trashed, and nobody read my post. Is it worth pointing out anyway? I think so.

[LaRoza]

I am building an ubuntu-based media center PC.

Yes, that is literally my intent. Could I have said "I need a s939 microATX board"? Sure! Did it occur to me that that might get me equally good results, if not better? Sure! Was I afraid that some (no offense - this is how feelings usually come out in these scenarios) "idiot mod" would move, or worse, delete (yeah, yeah, move to 'locked' forums !deletes) my thread and leave me without an answer still? You bet!


But it wasn't your question.

There are no idiot mods (except for one, but he knows who he is), and any action can be undone :-)

See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=745905

I got what I wanted.

They don't need to know why I wanted it, just what I wanted.

[forrestcupp]

I gave you an applicable reply in your other thread.

Edit:
It's not bad when your thread gets moved. It usually means that it is placed in a subforum where people can help you better. Your post had nothing to do with building a media center computer, but a certain type of hardware you needed. If your thread gets moved and you can't find it, you can click your profile and search for all the posts you have made.

[swoll1980]

I do that to my gf sometimes(block her out while she talks for hours on end just nodding my head) if I miss read a tread on the computer it's usually do to an out side distraction most likely her. lol

[retrow]

What I find even more amazing is when people don't read their own post before hitting the submit button.

[st0n3cutt3r]

I think it was the fact that I got 2 responses in quick succession (one of which was from a mod) that alarmed me so much.

[BLTicklemonster]

There's a man page for that somewhere.

[hessiess]

i always try to be informative when trying to help somebody. but im not very good at writing so my posts arnt always easy to reed.

[phenest]

I blame the phases of the moon.....



.....I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

[rasmus91]

Serious question about your approach to responding to threads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get the distinct impression, reading the original post in threads, and the various replies that (sometimes) pour in that most people never actually read the content of the post.

Why do I get this impression? For one thing, a lot of replies just don't make sense, or completely fail to address the issue at hand. Can we chalk that one up to anything other than "Post Count +1"?

I was sorely tempted to include a poll in this thread, because we do love our polls; read the options, make your vote, ignore the post. This is the type of thing that I reserve Falls_On_Face smilies, and the term "epic FAIL" for.

I'd say there's at least a 50% chance that most people will not get this far in this post. It's a little pathetic, and certainly disgruntling.

I have a roommate who likes to hear himself talk. He stands next to me and starts talking about something, but doesn't actually care if I hear him. I literally put on headphones and watch a movie or tv show on my computer, and he will happily talk until he's had is fill, and then walks off mumbling about something else. This is not what I want in the ubuntu forums!

I am well aware that not every word of every post merits being read, and few really are worth being read more than a couple of times unless it's something worth discussing, or of particular interest, but darnit! When I ask a question, I do not want this to happen: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=752052 Read it, understand my frustration, then answer me honestly: "Are you guilty of this?"

I, honestly read all posts in a thread that I am going to contribute to BEFORE posting up to about 3 pages. If the thread is longer than 3 pages, I'll absolutely read the original post (what else would I have to talk about if not a response to it?), at least the first few replies, and then the last page or two to make sure that the issue hasn't been resolved and nobody bothered to notice.

Not everyone has that kind of time, I know, but it really is quite disrespectful to respond to a question with a statement or suggestion that in reality has no value what-so-ever. Think about it, please!


I understand your frustration, and i must say, i think the same thing very often. But i can say (from my self) that i do not always read entire threads, i quickly have a fast look of it, taking the keywords. because its so rare for me to have the time for reading an entire post.

i dont think that most people will read all posts in a thread like This (http://http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=707621)(thread started by me, mostly for fun and Impressions...) and that's fair i think, but when it comes to solving people's problem i think people should be a bit srious about it, read what the other guys wrote and see if they can help futher...

[kko1]

Hello.

A serious answer to a serious question. I do read and prefer to read with attention. I also prefer quality to response speed, and I don't care about the post count either. That's the second half of the issue.

The first half (chronologically), as LaRoza nicely pointed out, is the original post. How it is formulated and where it is posted will undeniably affect the quality of responses received.

As a further point (pointed to by retrow), I prefer to re-read my own posts before posting (both when asking a question and when answering one) to make sure what I write makes sense (at the very least to myself).

*

I read also this thread. Why? Because communication failures like you described tick me off (regardless of what may be the actual cause of the failure). Also, I think finding ways to avoid such failures is important.

I, too, get "the distinct impression", that many (I won't say most) people do not actually read with attention. However, the story is not quite that simple.


I'd say there's at least a 50% chance that most people will not get this far in this post. It's a little pathetic, and certainly disgruntling.

I agree and disagree. What do I mean?

For the first part: Yes, many people will happily skim the post and simply choose to ignore it. (This will happen to any post, regardless of how and where it is written, but to some more than others.)

For the second part: No, in my opinion it is neither pathetic nor disgruntling. People's interests are their own, and how they spend their time is their own choice.

It is more problematic when people mis-interpret a post (due to whatever reason), and, instead of ignoring it, choose to respond to it in a less-than-useful manner - which is what in this case irked you, and what likewise irks me. (However, mistakes happen, and neither of us probably takes all of them too seriously. :) )


I, honestly read all posts in a thread that I am going to contribute to BEFORE posting up to about 3 pages. If the thread is longer than 3 pages, I'll absolutely read the original post (what else would I have to talk about if not a response to it?), at least the first few replies, and then the last page or two to make sure that the issue hasn't been resolved and nobody bothered to notice.

This is commendable. For the same reason, I wish people would mark their thread solved when it is, so the reader knows it. (My pet peeve, see my sig. ;) )

*

One other thing:


I have a roommate who likes to hear himself talk. He stands next to me and starts talking about something, but doesn't actually care if I hear him. I literally put on headphones and watch a movie or tv show on my computer, and he will happily talk until he's had is fill, and then walks off mumbling about something else. This is not what I want in the ubuntu forums!

Begging your pardon, but this strikes me as odd. Doesn't actually care? Has he said this or is that simply your interpretation?

In the context of your post, this is even more peculiar. Do you realise that this seems to portray exactly the same unwillingness to listen (in other words, to actually read the post(s) and pay attention) that you complain about?

(Please don't take this as an offense, as this is only my interpretation, but the apparent contrast between your words and your perceived actions just strikes me as odd. I know I would find what you describe quite disturbing, if someone did that to me.)


When I ask a question, I do not want this to happen.

Indeed. But who would?

As you write, successful communication is a matter of respect towards the other parties involved:

Not everyone has that kind of time, I know, but it really is quite disrespectful to respond to a question with a statement or suggestion that in reality has no value what-so-ever. Think about it, please!

How we show that respect towards people we communicate with, both directly (face-to-face or face-to-occiput, or occiput-to-occiput) as well as through communications media (telephones, e-mail, forums) defines how we are.

(Hmm, "defines how we are". Why does that remind me of something? Oh yes, "humanity toward others" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28Linux_distribution%29). ;) )

*

So, to put my answer in more concrete terms, successful communication is a two-way street, and my approach to responding to threads, as well as towards all meaningful communication, is threefold:
- to try to pay enough attention,
- to respect the people I communicate with, and
- to try to offer constructive input / feedback.

I hope you will find this post worth your while.

kko1

[toupeiro]

I'll admit I've been guilty of this, and felt a little sheepish when I realized how off-topic I got. I agree with you 100%. I think its something we all do, some more than others, but if we make the effort to open someone elses thread and comment on it, we should take the effort to read/comprehend everything the OP is trying to say. Thanks for bringing this up.

[aysiu]

Communication is a two-way street. Yes, people responding should read posts carefully, but people posting problems should do everything they can to help make their problems clear and easy to understand for those who are trying to help.

Yes, long posts will be skimmed. Why make your post exceedingly long? To waste people's time? To test if they're really paying attention? People don't want to play psychological games--they just want to help you get Ubuntu working.

[Blue Heron]

Think about it, please!

Hi st0n3cutt3r, the problem is that, reading or writing was only meant for a small elite in the classical era, 2000+ years ago.
Only for really important or intellectual people - today the mob is spamming. Internet, Web 2.0 everywhere people who tell us about their opinion.
You cannot care about everything - you are flooded by information. Actually there where really intelligent people with very powerful ideas witch are now forgotten like Friedrich Nietzsche, instead of reading Nietzsche, we now read empty postings. :(

[kko1]

Yes, people responding should read posts carefully, but people posting problems should do everything they can to help make their problems clear and easy to understand for those who are trying to help.

I agree. Being easy to help helps. ;)


Yes, long posts will be skimmed. Why make your post exceedingly long? To waste people's time? To test if they're really paying attention? People don't want to play psychological games--they just want to help you get Ubuntu working.

I'd like to point to a difference between posts in the support categories and posts in the Cafe and OMG pInK pOnIeS. Especially in the support categories, short but accurate is definitely a virtue, more so than in the latter. (At least your last sentence looks like it points particularly towards the support categories, so perhaps you agree with this distinction?)

kko1

[Erik Trybom]

There is a certain reading pattern for every kind of text, and although it's very individual there are also some general rules.

When reading a newspaper for instance, the leading paragraph is what you read first. (Interestingly enough, a lot of people skip the headline.) Then you go through the article, read the image caption at some point and skip the ads on both sides.

On a forum like this, there are some special factors regarding the reading pattern. For one thing, you always see the thread title first because you must click on it in order to read the post. Thus the title very strongly influences the user's impression of the thread, regardless of whether the title has anything to do with the post or not.

Second, if you include any links in your post most users will click them and sometimes respond to what they find there. That may or may not be the purpose of including the link. I once saw a thread reading "are there any more political compass tests like this one?" which ended up full of people posting their results on the test from the first post.

Also, as has already been written in the thread, people skim the Internet. If the question is buried too deep within the text, they might not get it right.

Polls are especially tricky. The thread title says one thing, the poll question usually says the same thing and those are the first two things you see - western reading is from left to right and from top to bottom. Thus the "normal" pattern is to first read the question, then the alternatives and then the first post. Where during this procedure is it most logical to place your vote?

This was just a couple of things I could think of off the top of my head. A wise poster would consider these issues before posting a new thread.

[tdrusk]

I like to use the post reply button and spell check.










just kidding of course.

[forrestcupp]

I actually think it's childish to get that hostile about people who are volunteering their time to give you free support. If you realize that you may not have worded your original post clearly or concisely, and people are giving you the wrong info, just make a new post thanking them for their response but letting them know that wasn't what you needed.

It's free help that no one is entitled to. Just correct the flow of things and be thankful that people are willing to help.

[tgalati4]

Shorter is better.

[st0n3cutt3r]

I actually think it's childish to get that hostile about people who are volunteering their time to give you free support. If you realize that you may not have worded your original post clearly or concisely, and people are giving you the wrong info, just make a new post thanking them for their response but letting them know that wasn't what you needed.

It's free help that no one is entitled to. Just correct the flow of things and be thankful that people are willing to help.

To a large degree, I agree with you. It is horrible form to become hostile when people are offering you help.

At the same time, also recognize that I am not begging for high-level technical assistance, and then biting the heads off of everyone who does not get it exactly right on the first try. --- If you don't have time to read a post... to even skim it... why are you in these forums at all? (as you are clearly a very busy person)

You could have read the first sentence, the middle, or the bottom of my post and within just a few words determined that I was talking about hardware. Further, while not all people interpret everything in exactly the same way, when someone posts something about "Building a[n ubuntu-based media center] PC" I expect to find hardware-related issues or questions in the post. I could have said "Building an orange car"; should I have expected instructions on the speed limit then?

I do appreciate the input I got, and I will look into the software they suggested.... if I can ever find a microATX s939 motherboard.



(and for those of you concerned about my requesting that people listen to me here, but rudely ignoring my roommate at home, he's told me that most of the time he is just working something out outloud, and just wants to have company while he works it out - I don't ignore him when he's actually talking to me.)

[st0n3cutt3r]

I agree. Being easy to help helps. ;)


Shorter is better.

"Good point."

I need a (working) microATX s939 motherboard. Preferably not from eBay.

[kko1]

At the same time, also recognize that I am not begging for high-level technical assistance, and then biting the heads off of everyone who does not get it exactly right on the first try.

Exactly. You brought up a very valid point, and asking that a post be read if one is going to reply to it at least shouldn't be too much to ask for. (As I said, the same thing ticks me off (not necessarily on ubuntuforums), which is what prompted me to comment.)


(and for those of you concerned about my requesting that people listen to me here, but rudely ignoring my roommate at home, he's told me that most of the time he is just working something out outloud, and just wants to have company while he works it out - I don't ignore him when he's actually talking to me.)

That would be me. :-?:-\" Sorry about that, I realized this was a possibility, the detail just caught my attention. (Well anyway, what you wrote is a fine illustration for this kind of "communication". :) )

For what it's worth, hope you get your board. ;)

kko1

[st0n3cutt3r]

thanks. me too. (still looking by the way)

[toupeiro]

Communication is a two-way street. Yes, people responding should read posts carefully, but people posting problems should do everything they can to help make their problems clear and easy to understand for those who are trying to help.

Yes, long posts will be skimmed. Why make your post exceedingly long? To waste people's time? To test if they're really paying attention? People don't want to play psychological games--they just want to help you get Ubuntu working.

Aysiu makes a solid point here, but I think there is something being missed here. Long posts with words used as space filler that aren't constructive in a support situation is not helpful, but complete and concise statements outlining the problem scenario, steps done to remedy and the results are a completely different story.

Example: I remember someone opening a support ticket via email back when I first started doing helpdesk support years ago which said "My screen is blue, please help." Now obviously, this person stated his problem short and sweet, but the options are all over the board as far as where to start, or what could be causing it. For all I knew, he may have accidentally set his wallpaper to blue, and doesn't know how to change it.

Details are a good thing. Short and sweet is always nice, but cannot always be accomplished without sacrificing some detail that could save the one helping you some time. I'd rather read 2 more minutes than troubleshoot 15 minutes of things the person had already tried and neglected to mention. If they are true supportive details, then I don't think its possible to supply enough. I think its a great basis of communication between you and the person you are helping. By them displaying what they've already tried, they are also omitting to you in some way a level of knowledge which you can begin dialog and remediation with. It could mean the difference of "step1: check the vga cable" or "Step 1: based on what you've tried, change your veritcal and horizontal refresh to ###"

[forrestcupp]

Dude, you're either going to have to go ebay, or buy a new motherboard. There's nothing else out there.

Edit:
I actually found one just now for you in an ebay store (http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-A8V-MX-Socket-939-VIA-K8M800-Micro-ATX-AMD-MB_W0QQitemZ200215495716QQihZ010QQcategoryZ31496QQ rdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem). That means you can buy it right away without bidding on it.