PDA

View Full Version : KDE4 - ripoff?



fela
April 4th, 2008, 01:55 PM
who here agrees with me that KDE4 is somewhat similar to Windows Vista? that's the feeling i got...ok, flame war started! :P

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Somehow, yes. But development started way before Vista came out. So I doubt there is a connection.

LaRoza
April 4th, 2008, 01:59 PM
From what I saw of an very early release of KDE4, it is not a ripoff...unless they are psychic.

The UI of many systems seem to be following the same pattern, so a certain "familarity" in features is to be expected.

Joeb454
April 4th, 2008, 02:00 PM
The 2 are very similar, but howcome you didn't say KDE4 was a rip-off of Mac OS X?

Vista copied features from OS X, so surely KDE4 did too ;)

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I like both the Vista and KDE4 theme, look & feel.

Have you guys seen Vixta?

http://vixta.sourceforge.net/

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:04 PM
At any rate, you can be comfortable with the fact that KDE4 uses much less resources than Aero does, so you can't really call it a rip-off.

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Oh, for sure. Vista is a big performance hog. You can't beat that.

LaRoza
April 4th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Oh, for sure. Vista is a big performance hog. You can't beat that.

That isn't fair, it barely uses half of my ram.

Oh, wait, I have 2.5 GB...

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:08 PM
That isn't fair, it barely uses half of my ram.

Oh, wait, I have 2.5 GB...
(head shaking)

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:11 PM
That isn't fair, it barely uses half of my ram.

Oh, wait, I have 2.5 GB...

What a waste LaRoza, what a waste.

Also in case some people didn't know, KDE4 is free and open source whereas Aero is expensive(need to pay for Vista) and is closed source. So this means that if KDE4 makes you unhappy you can at least try and make some changes to make it fit your needs without looking over your shoulder for lawyers in black suits;).

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:13 PM
What a waste LaRoza, what a waste.

Also in case some people didn't know, KDE4 is free and open source whereas Aero is expensive(need to pay for Vista) and is closed source. So this means that if KDE4 makes you unhappy you can at least try and make some changes to make it fit your needs without looking over your shoulder for lawyers in black suits;).
Very practicable indeed. Just do it yourself so to say.

I doubt a lot of people have the capability.

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Very practicable indeed. Just do it yourself so to say.

I doubt a lot of people have the capability.

True, not everyone can(I can't), but this is where the beauty of choice comes into play, so if KDE4 doesn't fit then at least you have the choice of using a different desktop environment that does fit your needs.

Also there is the possibility that you could request what you want in the form of a wishlist so that what you want could be added by the developers later on.

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:27 PM
True, not everyone can(I can't), but this is where the beauty of choice comes into play, so if KDE4 doesn't fit then at least you have the choice of using a different desktop environment that does fit your needs.

Also there is the possibility that you could request what you want in the form of a wishlist so that what you want could be added by the developers later on.
That's also true. You have a choice and people might listen to you. And customization is just great, you have plenty of options even without programming skills. I look so forward to KDE4.1. I have always preferred KDE over Gnome.

And Vixta is just the most beautiful distro I know.

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:30 PM
I prefer Gnome on my desktop, but I may consider KDE4 on my laptop in the form of OpenSUSE 11(man am I in love with that OS):).

atomkarinca
April 4th, 2008, 02:31 PM
...so if KDE4 doesn't fit then at least you have the choice of using a different desktop environment that does fit your needs.

You know I've got aware of this just now. I don't mean I didn't know this, I've already got Gnome and XFCE installed. I mean if I was using Windows there would be only one DE and I would HAVE TO use that. I guess this FOSS thing started to spoil me :)

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:32 PM
I prefer Gnome on my desktop, but I may consider KDE4 on my laptop in the form of OpenSUSE 11(man am I in love with that OS):).
Oh, I more than agree. Suse is certainly one of the best KDE distributions. I used to use it years ago. It was great even back then.

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:32 PM
You know I've got aware of this just now. I don't mean I didn't know this, I've already got Gnome and XFCE installed. I mean if I was using Windows there would be only one DE and I would HAVE TO use that. I guess this FOSS thing started to spoil me :)

Don't be too sure about the "one DE" on Windows, what with KDE4 being ported to Windows we could see some free desktops(more choice) on Windows.

wieman01
April 4th, 2008, 02:35 PM
Don't be too sure about the "one DE" on Windows, what with KDE4 being ported to Windows we could see some free desktops(more choice) on Windows.
What an irony! A true one!

PmDematagoda
April 4th, 2008, 02:35 PM
Oh, I more than agree. Suse is certainly one of the best KDE distributions. I used to use it years ago. It was great even back then.

True, I think it's because OpenSUSE is dedicated to KDE since their Gnome version does not have all the polish or "bling" as the KDE one does. Right now it seems to apply in the case of Ubuntu and Kubuntu, but I am seeing some real improvements in Kubuntu 8.04, so who knows:).

fela
April 4th, 2008, 02:59 PM
from what i hear kde wasn't a rip off - and it was more likely the other way round? yeah, and Vista IS a terrible rip off of OS X, if i may say so.

But rather than bash a OS cause it rips off another OS, i think it's good. You have to share your ideas some times.

GOROSSI
April 4th, 2008, 03:50 PM
from what i hear kde wasn't a rip off - and it was more likely the other way round? yeah, and Vista IS a terrible rip off of OS X, if i may say so.

But rather than bash a OS cause it rips off another OS, i think it's good. You have to share your ideas some times.

True, As I am in to Aviation as a hobby the same was said about the former Soviet Union during the Cold War see here Antonov 124 (Soviet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-124), American Lockheed C5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_C5).

Just shows that if the requirements are similar the Output is similar apart from electronics though as technologically the soviet industry was poor in this area.
But the Soviets ended up with a more reliable product usually.

Just like KDE is more reliable than Windows but can suffer because of the compatibility of Linux with some hardware due to the small market share which puts smaller manufacturers off writing drivers.

see my thread here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=742070

fela
April 18th, 2008, 02:14 PM
At any rate, you can be comfortable with the fact that KDE4 uses much less resources than Aero does, so you can't really call it a rip-off.

I'm not saying that vista is not a performance hog (it b****y well is! ;)) but KDE4 seemed unnaturally slow on my computer running off a livecd. It ran alot slower than a livecd with the latest gnome on it. I have to say that i prefer gnome all in all. Although i haven't yet tested a native harddisk installation of KDE4 (and don't think i will).

Erunno
April 18th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I'm hard-pressed to find any striking similarities between a standard Windows Vista desktop (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/Windows_Vista_Desktop.png) and a KDE 4.0 desktop (http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/screenshots/dolphin-systemsettings-kickoff.jpg). *shrug*

geoken
April 18th, 2008, 03:04 PM
At any rate, you can be comfortable with the fact that KDE4 uses much less resources than Aero does, so you can't really call it a rip-off.

You sure about that? There are widespread complaints about KDE4's general slowness (mostly linked to kwin compositing). In my own test KDE4 is extremely sluggish, the scale plugin is, at best, pushing 20fps. Even moving windows produces noticable framerate drops. My gpu is an 8800gts.

tigerplug
April 18th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Some of the best ideas and designs are built on those of others. I mean if people didn't do that, there wouldn't be "inspiration" as we know it. :)

geoken
April 18th, 2008, 03:25 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I'm hard-pressed to find any striking similarities between a standard Windows Vista desktop (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/Windows_Vista_Desktop.png) and a KDE 4.0 desktop (http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/screenshots/dolphin-systemsettings-kickoff.jpg). *shrug*

I totally agree. Apart from the main panel being black I see no similarities. And even the panel thing isn't really a similarity because they have a totally different look (flat and simple vs. glossy transparent bling.

Rather than making far reaching claims can someone point out a specific widget that looks similar?

Freddy
April 18th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I totally agree. Apart from the main panel being black I see no similarities. And even the panel thing isn't really a similarity because they have a totally different look (flat and simple vs. glossy transparent bling.

Rather than making far reaching claims can someone point out a specific widget that looks similar?
Yeah please, I want to know to. The only thing I can see in KDE that even remotly looks or feels like Vista is the menu but that is going to change when 'Raptor' becomes stable enough for use.

So please tell us whats KDE4 similarites with Vista.

digger95
April 18th, 2008, 04:04 PM
KDE has always, in my opinion, been the most 'Windows-like' of the Linux desktops. I just don't think that's a bad thing. If it shows potential Linux users that they can do the same things, and more with their machines and with less resources I certainly don't have a problem with that. :)

fela
April 18th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Yeah please, I want to know to. The only thing I can see in KDE that even remotly looks or feels like Vista is the menu but that is going to change when 'Raptor' becomes stable enough for use.

So please tell us whats KDE4 similarites with Vista.

When i posted this thread, i didn't mean it in a bad way at all, i think if people build on others' ideas that is great and potentially more constructive than if it was mandatory to start from the beginning with your own idea. I was just struck by the similarites. So don't get me wrong. Ok here they are:

1) widgets...this seems to be originally a Mac OS X idea, but was ported to vista aswell, and now i learn KDE4 also. It might even of been an early KDE4 idea so maybe they had the first idea for this in fact (and this goes for lots of these points, if not all)
2) Kickoff menu...i believe lots of people even call this the start menu. It is basically the same, with the search field at the bottom, programs, exit, etc.
3) All in all a similar desktop layout, ie. with the system tray in the right hand side of the bottom panel (and no top panel), with a window switcher at the left and the start/kickoff menu at the far left.
4) trivial point: black kicker
5) Bonus point: system resources. KDE3 is really fast and responsive, but when i tried KDE4...well, they seemed to have taken a leaf out of M$'s book...not a good thing at all. I could barely open the kicker menu cause the system was so bogged down. My specs are 1.8GHz P4, 1.1GiB RAM, GeforceFX 5200. Not the best of the best, but it runs extremely well on Gnome 2.22 (latest) WITH compiz, compared with KDE4. I do not have a hope of running compiz on KDE4.

I just find that KDE4 and other versions of kde just smack more of windows than other DEs, eg. Gnome. And btw, this is a list of points i could think of off the top of my head right now.

qazwsx
April 18th, 2008, 09:59 PM
When i posted this thread, i didn't mean it in a bad way at all, i think if people build on others' ideas that is great and potentially more constructive than if it was mandatory to start from the beginning with your own idea. I was just struck by the similarites. So don't get me wrong. Ok here they are:



1) widgets...this seems to be originally a Mac OS X idea, but was ported to vista aswell, and now i learn KDE4 also. It might even of been an early KDE4 idea so maybe they had the first idea for this in fact (and this goes for lots of these points, if not all)

I think 4.1 can use OS X widgets. When webkit comes in KDE. Well it is differerent and supports superkaramba as well. I think one of the main goals in KDE 4 was to redefine desktop as folder.


2) Kickoff menu...i believe lots of people even call this the start menu. It is basically the same, with the search field at the bottom, programs, exit, etc.

Not very usable. Not very Vistaish either. SLAB anyone?


3) All in all a similar desktop layout, ie. with the system tray in the right hand side of the bottom panel (and no top panel), with a window switcher at the left and the start/kickoff menu at the far left.

No top panel? I think top bar is in Ubuntu but not in vanilla GNOME. Horrible argument... Let's but panel to the center of the screen. That would be original.


4) trivial point: black kicker

I don't think it is kicker anymore. RIP kicker (well I have heard 3.5.10 is still coming)

geoken
April 18th, 2008, 10:58 PM
When i posted this thread, i didn't mean it in a bad way at all, i think if people build on others' ideas that is great and potentially more constructive than if it was mandatory to start from the beginning with your own idea. I was just struck by the similarites. So don't get me wrong. Ok here they are:

1) widgets...this seems to be originally a Mac OS X idea, but was ported to vista aswell, and now i learn KDE4 also. It might even of been an early KDE4 idea so maybe they had the first idea for this in fact (and this goes for lots of these points, if not all)
2) Kickoff menu...i believe lots of people even call this the start menu. It is basically the same, with the search field at the bottom, programs, exit, etc.
3) All in all a similar desktop layout, ie. with the system tray in the right hand side of the bottom panel (and no top panel), with a window switcher at the left and the start/kickoff menu at the far left.
4) trivial point: black kicker
5) Bonus point: system resources. KDE3 is really fast and responsive, but when i tried KDE4...well, they seemed to have taken a leaf out of M$'s book...not a good thing at all. I could barely open the kicker menu cause the system was so bogged down. My specs are 1.8GHz P4, 1.1GiB RAM, GeforceFX 5200. Not the best of the best, but it runs extremely well on Gnome 2.22 (latest) WITH compiz, compared with KDE4. I do not have a hope of running compiz on KDE4.

I just find that KDE4 and other versions of kde just smack more of windows than other DEs, eg. Gnome. And btw, this is a list of points i could think of off the top of my head right now.

Those are all really poor points.

1) Widgets were around way before OSX. And if you think KDE's widgets are like OS X & Vista widgets then you don't understand them. Basically, in KDE4 anything can be put anywhere. Everything is a plasmoid. The windows are plasmoids, the entire desktop is a plasmoid. You can take any desktop plasmoid and put it into your panel (and vice versa). Basically it's complete freedom, anything can be put anywhere.

2) Gnome's main menu is a lot more like Vista then KDE. Vista's main menu is a single pane with shortcuts. KDE's is a tab based menu, the search is at the top. You're other two examples are really reaching. The menu contains 'programs' and a log off button? Are you seriously going to accuse anyone who includes programs and a log off command in their main menu of copying Vista?

3) Nothing has changed here from KDE 3

4) KDE has a black panel, but it looks totally different from Vista.

5) I guess every single new, unrefined app which still has performance bugs is also copying Vista. Is songbird copying Vista, it currently runs sluggish and uses a lot of memory.

You arguments seemed really far reaching.

Erunno
April 18th, 2008, 11:04 PM
1) widgets...this seems to be originally a Mac OS X idea, but was ported to vista aswell, and now i learn KDE4 also. It might even of been an early KDE4 idea so maybe they had the first idea for this in fact (and this goes for lots of these points, if not all)

KDE 3 had desktop widgets for a very long time (Karamba). And even you admit that Mac OS X had desktop widget long before Vista but you still try to bent it to support your argument that KDE copied from Microsoft?!


2) Kickoff menu...i believe lots of people even call this the start menu. It is basically the same, with the search field at the bottom, programs, exit, etc.

Did you even look at the pictures I linked to? The Vista and Kickoff menu are nothing alike, starting with the search field being at the *top* in Kickoff. This question may sound harsh but do you have even the faintest idea what you are talking about?


3) All in all a similar desktop layout, ie. with the system tray in the right hand side of the bottom panel (and no top panel), with a window switcher at the left and the start/kickoff menu at the far left.

Yes, the default desktop layout has always been reminiscent of Windows (with Kicker being far bigger). Even GNOME didn't depart too much from this template. They offloaded some of the functionality to the top bar but it still follows the same layout (menu items on the left, system tray on the right, central task bar). Apple was (for better or worse) far more succesful in creating an identity of their own with the dock and a global application bar.


4) trivial point: black kicker

They do look nothing alike. Again, look at the pictures I posted. Vista uses a glossy, slightly transparent bar with a "depth" effect while KDE 4 employs a flat, opaque and deep black bar with a transparent border.



5) Bonus point: system resources. KDE3 is really fast and responsive, but when i tried KDE4...well, they seemed to have taken a leaf out of M$'s book...not a good thing at all. I could barely open the kicker menu cause the system was so bogged down. My specs are 1.8GHz P4, 1.1GiB RAM, GeforceFX 5200. Not the best of the best, but it runs extremely well on Gnome 2.22 (latest) WITH compiz, compared with KDE4. I do not have a hope of running compiz on KDE4.

The performance problems are mostly related to KWin when composite is turned on combined with nVidia cards. This problem has been known for months and work has been done to fix this for 4.1 (KDE can't fix driver isses though). There have also been some issues with Qt which are allegedly fixed for Qt 4.4. Actually, KDE 4.0 would probably run better with Compiz at the moment if one can't live without deskop effects as KWin is the main culprit right now. KDE 4 has nowhere near the minimum requirements as Windows "We need at least 1 GB of RAM to run a text editor" Vista.


I just find that KDE4 and other versions of kde just smack more of windows than other DEs, eg. Gnome. And btw, this is a list of points i could think of off the top of my head right now.

Honestly, your points are so weak or outright incorrect that I get the impression that you are grasping at straws here. Maybe if you sit down and think it through you'll be able to come up with some better informed and convincing arguments.

fela
April 18th, 2008, 11:08 PM
Those are all really poor points.

1) Widgets were around way before OSX. And if you think KDE's widgets are like OS X & Vista widgets then you don't understand them. Basically, in KDE4 anything can be put anywhere. Everything is a plasmoid. The windows are plasmoids, the entire desktop is a plasmoid. You can take any desktop plasmoid and put it into your panel (and vice versa). Basically it's complete freedom, anything can be put anywhere.

2) Gnome's main menu is a lot more like Vista then KDE. Vista's main menu is a single pane with shortcuts. KDE's is a tab based menu, the search is at the top. You're other two examples are really reaching. The menu contains 'programs' and a log off button? Are you seriously going to accuse anyone who includes programs and a log off command in their main menu of copying Vista?

3) Nothing has changed here from KDE 3

4) KDE has a black panel, but it looks totally different from Vista.

5) I guess every single new, unrefined app which still has performance bugs is also copying Vista. Is songbird copying Vista, it currently runs sluggish and uses a lot of memory.

You arguments seemed really far reaching.

I thought i made it clear that I was not accusing anyone of 'copying' off each other.

If you want to start a flame war, go do it somewhere else, to someone else. They are not constructive and i am NOT into them.

fela
April 18th, 2008, 11:09 PM
KDE 3 had desktop widgets for a very long time (Karamba). And even you admit that Mac OS X had desktop widget long before Vista but you still try to bent it to support your argument that KDE copied from Microsoft?!



Did you even look at the pictures I linked to? The Vista and Kickoff menu are nothing alike, starting with the search field being at the *top* in Kickoff. This question may sound harsh but do you have even the faintest idea what you are talking about?



Yes, the default desktop layout has always been reminiscent of Windows (with Kicker being far bigger). Even GNOME didn't depart too much from this template. They offloaded some of the functionality to the top bar but it still follows the same layout (menu items on the left, system tray on the right, central task bar). Apple was (for better or worse) far more succesful in creating an identity of their own with the dock and a global application bar.



They do look nothing alike. Again, look at the pictures I posted. Vista uses a glossy, slightly transparent bar with a "depth" effect while KDE 4 employs a flat, opaque and deep black bar with a transparent border.



The performance problems are mostly related to KWin when composite is turned on combined with nVidia cards. This problem has been known for months and work has been done to fix this for 4.1 (KDE can't fix driver isses though). There have also been some issues with Qt which are allegedly fixed for Qt 4.4. Actually, KDE 4.0 would probably run better with Compiz at the moment if one can't live without deskop effects as KWin is the main culprit right now. KDE 4 has nowhere near the minimum requirements as Windows "We need at least 1 GB of RAM to run a text editor" Vista.



Honestly, your points are so weak or outright incorrect that I get the impression that you are grasping at straws here. Maybe if you sit down and think it through you'll be able to come up with some better informed and convincing arguments.

I am not trying to argue my case, i am just giving my impressions. Again, i AM NOT trying to start any arguments, and i am not a KDE basher. Or a Gnome basher. Or even a basher of copying/building on other people's ideas.

Half-Left
April 18th, 2008, 11:28 PM
When i posted this thread, i didn't mean it in a bad way at all, i think if people build on others' ideas that is great and potentially more constructive than if it was mandatory to start from the beginning with your own idea. I was just struck by the similarites. So don't get me wrong. Ok here they are:

1) widgets...this seems to be originally a Mac OS X idea, but was ported to vista aswell, and now i learn KDE4 also. It might even of been an early KDE4 idea so maybe they had the first idea for this in fact (and this goes for lots of these points, if not all)
2) Kickoff menu...i believe lots of people even call this the start menu. It is basically the same, with the search field at the bottom, programs, exit, etc.
3) All in all a similar desktop layout, ie. with the system tray in the right hand side of the bottom panel (and no top panel), with a window switcher at the left and the start/kickoff menu at the far left.
4) trivial point: black kicker
5) Bonus point: system resources. KDE3 is really fast and responsive, but when i tried KDE4...well, they seemed to have taken a leaf out of M$'s book...not a good thing at all. I could barely open the kicker menu cause the system was so bogged down. My specs are 1.8GHz P4, 1.1GiB RAM, GeforceFX 5200. Not the best of the best, but it runs extremely well on Gnome 2.22 (latest) WITH compiz, compared with KDE4. I do not have a hope of running compiz on KDE4.

I just find that KDE4 and other versions of kde just smack more of windows than other DEs, eg. Gnome. And btw, this is a list of points i could think of off the top of my head right now.

1. The difference with KDE 4.0 is that plasma widgets ARE the desktop, since when can you add/remove parts of the desktop at will in Vista and OS X?

2. The layout is practically the same as KDE has always been, KDE4 just simplifies it more than KDE3.

3. KDE devs have said that it exposes alot of bugs in the nvidia drivers, compiz was built on current tech and KDE4 uses it's own new tech method with all the new code. I've noticed 4.0.3 is ALOT faster, that should say something in the progress they are making.

Compiz was designed with GNOME in mind, gnome changed their code to fix the compiz bugs, KDE didn't so much because it's not their way and stuck with the AIGLX/Xorg way. Looks now, XGL is dead, only SUSE use it and it's still not moved on much, AIGLX is what everyone is using now because it's merged with Xorg which is what KDE4.0 composing was based on.

samjh
April 19th, 2008, 12:53 AM
who here agrees with me that KDE4 is somewhat similar to Windows Vista? that's the feeling i got...ok, flame war started! :P

Every technology product follows a trend. These trends are usually dictated by market conditions: ie. users voted with their wallets. In the case of UI, users vote with their whining, complaining, and praising.

Obviously there are various UI developments that are well-liked by users, so different UI software adopt them. They're good features. It is an evolution: features that are obsolete are slowly killed off, and features that become popular and praise-worthy are adapted and expanded upon. Experimental (ie. innovative) new features sometimes work and sometimes don't - the ones that work keep living, the ones that don't work become extinct.

Companies like Microsoft and Apple do huge amounts of research and development on UI features. At Microsoft, even the colour of icons are debated in committees. While that might sound a bit anal, it shows just how much thought is put into the design. Microsoft alone uses hundreds of volunteers to test new UI features or modifications, adopting only the stuff that works well. Say what you want about the company or product quality, it is difficult to fault Microsoft's or Apple's UI designs, purely because they have a very solid basis on good research.

There are features in Vista that they've copied off MacOS and others. But that doesn't mean Microsoft "ripped off" those other UIs. They're just following the lessons learnt from other UI developers. KDE is the same, except in this case, KDE4 was conceived before Longhorn/Vista. Gnome does the same thing, adapting widgets and ideas from other UI that seem to work well.

russo.mic
April 21st, 2008, 07:58 PM
I would like somebody to help me understand what features are being ripped off of OSX for vista or KDE4, or KDE4 from Vista, or whatever. I guess they all use Windows, and Windows decorations to control them. They all have some kind of Menu for Launching apps, I guess.

I don't understand however, why this is looked at like them copying each other. I don't see any alternitiaves. Having a centralized app launcher is kind of obvious. using windows instead of having programs UI just float around the desktop is as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Russo

Vadi
April 21st, 2008, 08:00 PM
What matters is who makes use of the idea the best, not the fact that you came up with it first.

KiwiNZ
April 21st, 2008, 08:23 PM
Of course they look similar
The same way as all cars look similar,as do TV,s clothes,dishwashers etc.

And I find it somewhat odd that after a year there is still such a misunderstanding as to what Vista ia doing with resources mainly ram usage . Odd.

awakatanka
April 22nd, 2008, 08:01 AM
Plasmanoids can be used in websites also if i'm correct, the much more then widgets