Creative Threatens Community Modder

[regomodo]

Daniel_K:

We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are not supported by Creative. Where we do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made to run on other products for which they are not intended. We took action to remove your thread because, like you, Creative and its technology partners think it is only fair to be compensated for goods and services. The difference in this case is that we own the rights to the materials that you are distributing. By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods. When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own. If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.

Although you say you have discontinued your practice of distributing unauthorized software packages for Creative sound cards we have seen evidence of them elsewhere along with donation requests from you. We also note in a recent post of yours on these forums, that you appear to be contemplating the release of further packages. To be clear, we are asking you to respect our legal rights in this matter and cease all further unauthorized distribution of our technology and IP. In addition we request that you observe our forum rules and respect our right to enforce those rules. If you are in any doubt as to what we would consider unacceptable then please request clarification through one of our forum moderators before posting.

Phil O'Shaughnessy
VP Corporate Communications
Creative Labs Inc.



Forum Moderator
Creative Labs



Link is here (http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)

Well, i've removed my audigy se and plan on never using Creative again (Creative pulling the plug on Linux support just adds to it)

Who should we buy from instead?

Here are a list of alternates

Audiotrak (http://www.audiotrak.net/)
Hercules (http://www.hercules.com/) >> if you can get it to load
M-Audio (http://www.m-audio.com/)
Phillips (http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/gb/consumer/cc/_categoryid_PC_AUDIO_CA_GB_CONSUMER/) >> USB stuff
Terratec (http://www.terratec.net/en/)
Turtle Beach (http://www.turtlebeach.com/products.aspx) >> a new one to me

I have no idea about the extent of Linux support of these manufacturers.

[smoker]

seems they would rather force vista users to update to a newer card than provide decent drivers for vista users using existing cards!

all i can say, is vista users seem to get a raw deal from every direction (lol), but they shouldn't be threatening users of their equipment trying to improve it!

i will be avoiding anything from this company in the future.

[kinematic]

As some of you may know Creative crippled their Vista drivers on purpose in order to force customers to upgrade their sound cards. A lone hacker by the name of Daniel_K conjured up a working driver all by himself and posted it on the Creative forum making a lot of paying customers happy. Of course Creative does not want anybody to provide working drivers for their cards so they threatened Daniel_K with legal action and made him remove the drivers. I've always known that the folks over @ Creative aren't the brightest bunch but this is taking it to another level of stupidity. You can read the original message by Creative here (http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1) as well as the reactions by their customers.

[regomodo]

odd, this must be the quietest thread on the internet about Creative's PR suicide

[fatality_uk]

Amazing!! I am, almost speachless, which would be a first :D

[regomodo]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=739516

[z0mbie]

Boycott.

[rune0077]

Although I personally have no issues with the idea of software piracy and such, you can't really be mad at a company for enforcing their copyrights. Creative can do what they want with their licenses, it's their choice - I like my Creative speakers and headphones, and I have no intention to stop using them or to never buy anything from them again.

[tad1073]

seems they would rather force vista users to update to a newer card than provide decent drivers for vista users using existing cards!

all i can say, is vista users seem to get a raw deal from every direction (lol), but they shouldn't be threatening users of their equipment trying to improve it!

i will be avoiding anything from this company in the future.

It is all about profit with these companies, not that making a profit is bad, but for them not to have support and updated drivers for older cards to work with vista is certainly forcing vista users to buy new soundcards that do support vista. And I know if I bought vista and updated my pc from xp to vista someone would have hell to pay if my sound card didn't work and no drivers were available. A move like that is very unethical. And as far as them cutting Linux support - their are no words to express how I feel about that.

I have been saying that all the major software companies are in each others pockets. We need to do something about it, we need to take action against MS and the fact that vista is not backwards compatable with every available software, hardware etc.

[Rhapsody]

Well I would boycott Creative for this (and I plan on buying a sound card soon), but what else do I get? Figuring out what's guaranteed to work perfectly with ALSA is doing my head in anyway, excluding Creative would make a decision even harder. So if I'm to boycott Creative, what do I buy?

[kinematic]

you can't really be mad at a company for enforcing their copyrights. Creative can do what they want with their licenses, it's their choice

That's not the point. The point is they intentionally mislead the consumer by saying their cards are Vista capable wich as it turns out they clearly are not (by design). The fact that Daniel_K can produce working drivers wich support all the promised features demonstrates this. Creative wants to force their customers into an unnessecary upgrade path even tho the cards they have now are clearly more than capable. This is quite simply fraudulant behaviour. THAT is the point.

[Lord Illidan]

Well I would boycott Creative for this (and I plan on buying a sound card soon), but what else do I get? Figuring out what's guaranteed to work perfectly with ALSA is doing my head in anyway, excluding Creative would make a decision even harder. So if I'm to boycott Creative, what do I buy?

I know how you feel. However, check out Alsa's website (http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Main), they provide a list of soundcards and how they work with Alsa - or what steps must be taken for them to work.

Personally, I'm happy with the HDA Intel soundcards provided in most motherboards..but then I'm not an audiophile!

[rune0077]

That's not the point. The point is they intentionally mislead the consumer by saying their cards are Vista capable wich as it turns out they clearly are not (by design). The fact that Daniel_K can produce working drivers wich support all the promised features demonstrates this. Creative wants to force their customers into an unnessecary upgrade path even tho the cards they have now are clearly more than capable. This is quite simply fraudulant behaviour. THAT is the point.

I get the point, but again - this guy, Daniel_K, is clearly violating Creative's copyrights. Do I think he should be allowed to do this? Yes, it seems to be done in good intentions. But it's Creative's copyrights, and they can chose to enforce them if they want (which, obviously, they do). If you want to boycott them for that, you're going to also have to boycott just about every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this is (as someone mentioned above) a very common business tactic. Creative aren't worse, or better, than any of the other ones.

[tad1073]

I get the point, but again - this guy, Daniel_K, is clearly violating Creative's copyrights. Do I think he should be allowed to do this? Yes, it seems to be done in good intentions. But it's Creative's copyrights, and they can chose to enforce them if they want (which, obviously, they do). If you want to boycott them for that, you're going to also have to boycott just about every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this is (as someone mentioned above) a very common business tactic. Creative aren't worse, or better, than any of the other ones.

If creativelabs were doing their job then Daniel_K wouldn't have to do it for them.

[rune0077]

If creativelabs were doing their job then Daniel_K wouldn't have to do it for them.

CreativeLabs logically wants you to buy their new soundcards, and they're using a bit of good ol' fashioned dirty business to get that accomplished (nothing new there). I'd say they're doing their job exactly as they intend to do it.

[kinematic]

It seems to me you are missing the point. Creative is using their copyright to cover up their fraudulant behaviour. The only important thing here is the fact that Creative is unwilling or unable to provide working drivers to their customer base wich is proven by Daniel_K's driver. They purposefully mislead the public. That and only that is the main point.

[awakatanka]

I get the point, but again - this guy, Daniel_K, is clearly violating Creative's copyrights. Do I think he should be allowed to do this? Yes, it seems to be done in good intentions. But it's Creative's copyrights, and they can chose to enforce them if they want (which, obviously, they do). If you want to boycott them for that, you're going to also have to boycott just about every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this is (as someone mentioned above) a very common business tactic. Creative aren't worse, or better, than any of the other ones.
They sold vista ready cards that aren't vista ready at all. I bought a vista ready card that has dolby digital under XP but when i updated to vista with my vista ready card it didn't worked anymore.

[fwojciec]

I get the point, but again - this guy, Daniel_K, is clearly violating Creative's copyrights. Do I think he should be allowed to do this? Yes, it seems to be done in good intentions. But it's Creative's copyrights, and they can chose to enforce them if they want (which, obviously, they do). If you want to boycott them for that, you're going to also have to boycott just about every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this is (as someone mentioned above) a very common business tactic. Creative aren't worse, or better, than any of the other ones.

The question is not one of legality, really, but of prudence of Creative's action. They have simply shot themselves in the foot with the way they have handled this. The Creative rep who has written the initial post essentially admitted that the Vista drivers are crippled on purpose, in comparison to XP drivers, as a result of a "business" decision, in order to force customers to buy new soundcards. Now the community is all abuzz, articles about it are popping up everywhere, Creative forums have become unusable (it becomes impossible to discuss anything else there), the whole problem has been digged, slashdoted, stumbled and so on, and the bad vibes will now resonate for months while the financial/business benefit of the action is probably completely negligible (especially since the modded drivers are still easily available if anybody still wants to get them).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole issue ended with a class action lawsuit against Creative (the customers who bought the hardware paid for a certain functionality that has been partially disabled by means of the new Vista drivers). It's kind of amusing actually...

[tad1073]

CreativeLabs logically wants you to buy their new soundcards, and they're using a bit of good ol' fashioned dirty business to get that accomplished (nothing new there). I'd say they're doing their job exactly as they intend to do it.

What they are doing is unethical and missleading and might in fact cause law suites against their company. Hell, it is MS's fault to begin with. Like I said here:

It is all about profit with these companies, not that making a profit is bad, but for them not to have support and updated drivers for older cards to work with vista is certainly forcing vista users to buy new soundcards that do support vista. And I know if I bought vista and updated my pc from xp to vista someone would have hell to pay if my sound card didn't work and no drivers were available. A move like that is very unethical. And as far as them cutting Linux support - their are no words to express how I feel about that.

I have been saying that all the major software companies are in each others pockets. We need to do something about it, we need to take action against MS and the fact that vista is not backwards compatable with every available software, hardware etc.

I don't use MS on my personal computer BTW

[kinematic]

Creative even admits to crippling supposedly Vista ready cards.

By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended

[smoker]

this Daniel_K seems quite a talented guy, maybe this furore will open his eyes to the benefits of helping the opensource community in the future, who knows?

[tad1073]

Creative even admits to crippling supposedly Vista ready cards.

It is something along the lines of punitive damages, that is when the company that had the suite brought against them knows about the problem and does nothing to solve it, like in the movie "Erin Brockovich" or that movie that is based on a John Grisham book. I can't remember tha name of the movie but It has Matt Damon, Danny DeVIto, John Voit

[Dr Small]

Boycott.
+1

[bapoumba]

Merged one thread in here.

[kamaboko]

I don't see what the big beef is about. I mean, is this practice unique? How many times have Intel or AMD come out with a new line of processors that require a new motherboard because the size and pin arrangement of the processor has changed? Also, none of us are privy to the internal workings and consequences that motivate the decisions made by these companies. They chart what they believe to be their best course of action and go with it. As far as Creative is concerned, this is the best course of action for their line of products and business goals.

[unknown03]

Wow..Vista users already PAID for the product that doesnt work, so what the hellz the problem? ....OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH, it was intentional to not provide support/drivers -- good job Creative, I never liked you before, and I will continue to not like you NOW :)

[Mr.Auer]

Haha. Creative has a PR disaster on their hands. Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, plenty forums like this one...

I registered on their forum to comment, and wrote Shaughnessy email :)
I just bought two Zens to replace an Ipod. My next player WILL be a Cowon - Cowon has models supporting flac and ogg, and on select models they even state their linux support.

No more Creative here. Join my black list with likes of Microsoft, Apple, SiS for bad support on linux..ATI made it off the list with their recent decision to open the specs to their drivers ;)

Beware the wrath of the angry geek mob!

(ohh, soon its time to order a pile of Hardy cds, and then donate my free time in support of the cause, spreading the discs and helping on installing :) Somehow, when you get great support from a company, the community will also support you... Funny huh? )

Edit: Besides, it IS ILLEGAL in many countries for Creative to do this. They ADVERTISE their products as "Vista Ready" - when in fact they intentionally cripple their cards by software means on a new OS. This is illegal in whole EU I bet - its misleading marketing claims. They can be taken to court for this. That others may do the same thing - thats no excuse - those others should also be taken to court.

[NightwishFan]

Boycott.

1+1=+2

[Mr.Auer]

And you can just select a good onboard audio. Many many onboards work very well with Linux. I have Nvidia (ex-Azalia audio) onboard on my other box, it works flawlessly. On this one I have C-Media Electronics CMI9739, which has also worked fine out of the box. The Nvidia one is better thou, sound quality wise, and has 5.1 surround. Havent tried that thou, since I have just a stereo (but hifi!) system.

[Patrick-Ruff]

er, torrents yes?

also, I think this is a perfect example of why open source is great.

[kinematic]

The driver is already on the major public torrent sites. Do a search for
Creative Daniel_K and you'll find it.

[red_Marvin]

I weren't about to buy a Creative mp3 player before (I want ogg, so Iaudio maybe) but I certanly won't now.


I don't see what the big beef is about. I mean, is this practice unique? How many times have Intel or AMD come out with a new line of processors that require a new motherboard because the size and pin arrangement of the processor has changed?

The point is that it is perfectly clear that the socket X processors do not fit with socket Y motherboards, whereas creative sell "vista capable" soundcards which clearly are not, by driver design.

[Sweet Spot]

Last Creative product I bought were the PC speakers I use, with my WoNDERFUL Turtle Beach, Santa Cruz sound card, that btw, works beautifully with ALSA.


I was looking into buying a Creative DAP, but there's no way I'll support those asses now. Besides, their DAPs as of late have sucked big time, and Cowon, Samsung, Sansa and even Insignia have far better offerings in that department.

Boycott +3

[Polygon]

seriously, i know how much creative sucks, my soundcard i bought from them technically isnt a sound card, it offloads stuff to the cpu!

but anyway, what other soundcard vendor actually makes quality sound cards and has a prayer of working in linux? i only hear and see about creative cards....

[awakatanka]

I weren't about to buy a Creative mp3 player before (I want ogg, so Iaudio maybe) but I certanly won't now.



The point is that it is perfectly clear that the socket X processors do not fit with socket Y motherboards, whereas creative sell "vista capable" soundcards which clearly are not, by driver design.
Well they are vista capable but they crippled the driver so it does not have option you bought it for.

[rune0077]

It seems to me you are missing the point. Creative is using their copyright to cover up their fraudulant behaviour. The only important thing here is the fact that Creative is unwilling or unable to provide working drivers to their customer base wich is proven by Daniel_K's driver. They purposefully mislead the public. That and only that is the main point.

Yes I get it, for sure. But my point is, that this is nothing new. I'm trying to say that if you want to boycott Creative for that, then you'll also have to Boycott 90% of every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this type of behavior is common business practice everywhere.

[Spike-X]

I don't see what the big beef is about. I mean, is this practice unique? How many times have Intel or AMD come out with a new line of processors that require a new motherboard because the size and pin arrangement of the processor has changed?

Many. But they don't advertise their new processors as being compatible with old motherboards, when in fact they're not.


Also, none of us are privy to the internal workings and consequences that motivate the decisions made by these companies. They chart what they believe to be their best course of action and go with it. As far as Creative is concerned, this is the best course of action for their line of products and business goals.

If intentionally crippling their products so as to force an upgrade is the best business decision they can come up with, I hope they go out of business. Because I tell you what, for my next computer I plan to install a dedicated sound card. And after reading about this, it definitely won't be a Creative.

[toupeiro]

seriously, i know how much creative sucks, my soundcard i bought from them technically isnt a sound card, it offloads stuff to the cpu!

but anyway, what other soundcard vendor actually makes quality sound cards and has a prayer of working in linux? i only hear and see about creative cards....

+1 I've been done with creative soundcards for quite some time for these reasons. I can definitely plug Turtle Beach sound cards with confidence. Creative Labs will go the way of US Robotics and any other hardware company that tries to kung-fu grip the market. And, if emails like the one sent to Daniel_K are truly how they wish to represent themselves, then good riddance.

[ugm6hr]

Yes I get it, for sure. But my point is, that this is nothing new. I'm trying to say that if you want to boycott Creative for that, then you'll also have to Boycott 90% of every other hardware manufacturer out there, because this type of behavior is common business practice everywhere.

But publicly denying a user from distributing drivers is probably not a common business practice.

In fact, I would say this is pretty foolish from a marketing viewpoint.

Who says any publicity is good publicity?

And if this is common practice in IT, I must be really lucky to have had hardware that has always been forwards compatible. I realise Vista drivers have lagged for some hardware (I didn't upgrade, so wouldn't know for sure), but deliberately suppressing features in a new OS... that's a new one on me.

I think boycott is the wrong word though. If this is their attitude to users, then I'd be inclined not to trust their support in the future either. Hence I'll be avoiding anything that requires anything non-generic from them.

[rune0077]

But publicly denying a user from distributing drivers is probably not a common business practice.

In fact, I would say this is pretty foolish from a marketing viewpoint.

Who says any publicity is good publicity?


Okay, I didn't really mean to cause such a ruckus. I agree fully, this is highly unethical, I was really just saying that unethical and big business usually goes hand in hand, so I don't get why everyone is acting so surprised about it. And, bad marketing move or not, Creative can chose to prevent people from distributing their drivers if they want. This may, of course, make smart people obtain the drivers through other, equally unethical, means, but I'm sure Creative has taken that into consideration.



Who says any publicity is good publicity?


Lots of people has said that over time, and usually (though not always) it's true.

[billgoldberg]

I'm buying a new mp3 player and was thinking about buying another creative zen stone.

That won't happen.

I think the guy who posted the thread will be out of a job tomorrow.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7906/failbd6.jpg

[EdThaSlayer]

I bet that they are trying to get rid of this guy because they feel so ashamed that they, with all the specs and information about their sound card, can't beat a lonesome hacker out there who doesn't have all the information available to him but still beats Creative in making functional drivers.

[Bruce M.]

And to think my very first sound card was a SoundBlaster back in the 90's and I loved it.

I was looking at a second-hand older Creative SoundBlaster card the other day and was going to ask here in the forums if it would be compatible with Linux.

I don't think so now.
Thanks for the thread.
Bruce

[EdThaSlayer]

Creative is just creating bad press through what they are doing.

[tubasoldier]

I have a creative audigy. It worked great with the 2.4 kernel. With the 2.6 kernel came lots of crackles and pops. It also changes volume levels for no reason whatsoever. It has gotten better with every kernel release, but its still quite annoying.
I really keep using it only because it is so easy to get midi working in Linux with it. Just load a soundfont and yoru off.

I'm sure willing to take advice on good replacement soundcards.

[Tundro Walker]

So, let me get this straight ...

Creative is busting this guys chops for helping folks use their products? Are they freakin morons or something? That's like MS Windows getting all over the anti-virus companies' cases for making MS Windows more tolerable to use.

Man, someone at Creative needs to lighten up, and stop bullying folks trying to help others use their products. Sheesh.

[Ebuntor]

So, let me get this straight ...

Creative is busting this guys chops for helping folks use their products? Are they freakin morons or something? That's like MS Windows getting all over the anti-virus companies' cases for making MS Windows more tolerable to use.

Man, someone at Creative needs to lighten up, and stop bullying folks trying to help others use their products. Sheesh.

If I understand the whole situation correctly that's not really the case. Creative deliberately made the drivers for their sound cards Vista incompatible while the cards themselves actually are compatible. Thereby forcing their customers to buy new cards.

This Daniel_K made Vista compatible drivers and of course this ruins Creative's plan. Must be the worst marketing plan I have ever heard of.

[mips]

Thereby forcing their customers to buy new cards..

I think that is the idea, force people to buy new cards and keep the shareholders happy.

I do understand creatives point about the dolby digital stuff though as they have to license it from another party but the rest of the stuff should work.

Has this been on Digg yet? It also needs to get onto sites like The Register etc.

[rustybronco]

Has this been on Digg yet? It also needs to get onto sites like The Register etc.It is...

[sbenson]

Mountain, molehill.

This is only for some Distro called "Vista" or something.
Must be like Gentoo.
Just stop using that distro and it'll all be fine.


Just Kidding, hang 'em from lamposts, ARRRGH! and all that.

[public_void]

Yet again this illustrates some of the poor software that people pay for. You'd expect from a company such as Creative to product good quality software that works well with its product. You'd also expect them to support older versions up to a point, adding new features if necessary. Creative would be the ones that keep atop of operating system developments and adjust there software. In all buying software would be easy and pain free. But the case is people are able to download software that is written by people in there spare time that in the majority of case is much better. How has this come about, that a free product is better than a paid-for product. What are these companies doing.

[Forrest Gumpp]

This just has to be a leg-pull (a very stupid and self-defeating one) by Creative, doesn't it?

How is it that Creative thinks that it can claim intellectual property rights in something that 'Creative' have not produced, to wit, a functional driver for their sound card?

Even their sound cards are not IP, but rather physical goods, which once paid for become the property of their purchasers. As such, it is probably the case that in most jurisdictions there exists a legal requirement that such sound cards should be of merchantable quality. That is to say, that they would deliver the functionality a purchaser might normally expect. The matter of IP rights surely only relates to someone's copying of patented components that 'Creative' may have manufactured. In this case a possibly patentable or copyrighted component, a functional driver. is the very thing that has not been manufactured.

It is a well established legal principle that the purchaser of a product may modify or add components that may enable them to obtain full or enhanced functionality from that product. This is explained, in relation to an Australian context, in an address to the Australian Internet Industry Association by Justice Michael Kirby, an Australian High Court judge. See this post in another thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4573096&postcount=184

In Daniel K's supplying of a missing functional driver he is not defeating any technological protective measure of Creative or any other party, but simply providing a missing component! I think Justice Kirby's remarks make it plain that any purchaser of the Creative cards is in possession of a long-held legal right to do whatever is necessary to obtain full functionality. I would expect the position to be much the same in the US or elsewhere.

Far from stealing any right from Creative to make money from the sale of its cards, Daniel K has simply provided what Creative forewent supplying. I would think Daniel K would have every right to sell his driver or give it away as he chooses. Moreover, given that Creative has not so far provided a functional driver for these cards, should it now do so, could not Daniel K sue Creative for breach of his intellectual property rights?

[rune0077]

This just has to be a leg-pull (a very stupid and self-defeating one) by Creative, doesn't it?

How is it that Creative thinks that it can claim intellectual property rights in something that 'Creative' have not produced, to wit, a functional driver for their sound card?

Even their sound cards are not IP, but rather physical goods, which once paid for become the property of their purchasers. As such, it is probably the case that in most jurisdictions there exists a legal requirement that such sound cards should be of merchantable quality. That is to say, that they would deliver the functionality a purchaser might normally expect. The matter of IP rights surely only relates to someone's copying of patented components that 'Creative' may have manufactured. In this case a possibly patentable or copyrighted component, a functional driver. is the very thing that has not been manufactured.

It is a well established legal principle that the purchaser of a product may modify or add components that may enable them to obtain full or enhanced functionality from that product. This is explained, in relation to an Australian context, in an address to the Australian Internet Industry Association by Justice Michael Kirby, an Australian High Court judge. See this post in another thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4573096&postcount=184

In Daniel K's supplying of a missing functional driver he is not defeating any technological protective measure of Creative or any other party, but simply providing a missing component! I think Justice Kirby's remarks make it plain that any purchaser of the Creative cards is in possession of a long-held legal right to do whatever is necessary to obtain full functionality. I would expect the position to be much the same in the US or elsewhere.

Far from stealing any right from Creative to make money from the sale of its cards, Daniel K has simply provided what Creative forewent supplying. I would think Daniel K would have every right to sell his driver or give it away as he chooses. Moreover, given that Creative has not so far provided a functional driver for these cards, should it now do so, could not Daniel K sue Creative for breach of his intellectual property rights?

I'm not going to speak for the rest of this world, but this is not entirely true in the EU. While the buyer of a product may modify this product (usually voiding the guarantee, though), he is still not allowed to in any way violate the creators copyrights or patents (copyright violation is, unfortunately, a big no-no). You may modify your Creative-card to your hearts desire, but in no way may you use Creative's drivers (or any variation thereof) to do this. Since the driver in question is a derivative of Creative's drivers, they still have the copyright to it, and should thus, legally, be able to stop the distribution of said drivers.

[SunnyRabbiera]

But this is all stupid by creative, for them to force people to buy newer cards for computers that were already working in the first place sounds stupid.
Sure others do something similar to this, but when you are in a company as public as creative and make a move like this you might as well commit suicide.
People are just going to buy other products when they hear about this, this will not serve creative one bit.

[billgoldberg]

If I understand the whole situation correctly that's not really the case. Creative deliberately made the drivers for their sound cards Vista incompatible while the cards themselves actually are compatible. Thereby forcing their customers to buy new cards.

This Daniel_K made Vista compatible drivers and of course this ruins Creative's plan. Must be the worst marketing plan I have ever heard of.

Not just a bad marketing plan, a bad and ILLEGAL marketing plan.

[Arthur Archnix]

This is why I switched to Linux. Creative wants to force you to upgrade to a newer card. Not only do they not spend time and money creating full featured drivers for their older cards (understandable) they spend time and money preventing others from creating full featured drivers for their older cards (perhaps legal, but reprehensible). And they're hardly alone.

Vista is pretty much crippleware. They basically wrote one great OS, then ripped stuff out of it. Once we take out this much we call it the business edition. Once we remove the ability to send and recieve faxes we call it home premium. Once we remove our brand new interface we'll call it basic. And of course, you're welcome to upgrade from basic.

Even video games are testing the waters. Buy our games then purchase new content like weapons, levels and so on.

Starting at the top and workind down through my short three point list you'll find more and more people switching over from the "Totally outraged - let's boycott!!" category, to the "What do you expect, it's their right to do that". But the three differ only in terms of degree. They all exist along a continuum of ownership, the only difference is the extent of rights that the company is offering you, and which you seem to expect.

You can play the rights game with them, battling vista as it tells you you don't have permission to play your HD content in HD, battling creative as it tells you it's no longer supporting old cards fuller, and no one else is allowed to either, battle apple as you struggle to get your copy of Leopard onto your sisters pc because you're running Ubuntu on your macbook...and sometimes, when there's enough money at stake you'll win a temporary reprieve, as the case of XP's support cycle shows. But ultimately, you're fighting a losing battle. The ownership/rights continuum has moved steadily in one direction for the past 100 years, towards business and away from consumers.

I just count myself lucky that FOSS is finally at a stage of development that relatively unsophisticated users like myself can finally step off that battlefield and enjoy true freedom. What Microsoft does doesn't concern me. I've got my friends and family off that train wreck.

An poster above wondered at the fact that this was the quietest protest on the net. It's because we've known creative for what it is for a while now. People who use linux wouldn't have these cards because we know the companies don't support FOSS. Check out alsa's page for creative...

http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Vendor-Creative_Labs

Specifically, check out the card in question.

I just sat down to add my two cents. I apologize for the long-windedness of the post. I just felt that in all the excitement maybe a little perspective was needed. Specifically that this isn't about creative or this one soundcard, this is just one minor skirmish in a 100 year old battle of corporations against individuals. It started when the kings told the peasants they could no longer hunt animals in the king's forrests, and every day since we've lost a little more ground.

Sadly, this FOSS movement that provides a very real form of resistance hangs upon the goodwill of the government, it hangs upon ideas like net neutrality. A part of me wishes that all these people creating all this fuss over this one little driver for one little company would stop and think about the bigger picture.

Anyone who is interested in a primer into this war is encouraged to read Lawrence Lessig's book, Free Culture. It is, of course, free to download and read.

http://www.free-culture.cc/freecontent/

And once more, my sincere apologies for the length of this post.

[mips]

I'm not going to speak for the rest of this world, but this is not entirely true in the EU. While the buyer of a product may modify this product (usually voiding the guarantee, though), he is still not allowed to in any way violate the creators copyrights or patents (copyright violation is, unfortunately, a big no-no). You may modify your Creative-card to your hearts desire, but in no way may you use Creative's drivers (or any variation thereof) to do this. Since the driver in question is a derivative of Creative's drivers, they still have the copyright to it, and should thus, legally, be able to stop the distribution of said drivers.

Probaly true for the rest of the world as well. Thing is what he is doing includes Creative code which is wrong, but Creative is also wrong forcing people to buy new hardware when the old hardware can be made to work, they just want to make more $$$ where the poor guy is just trying to get people to get the most out of the hardware they invested in. Laws are not always just is the unfortunate world we live in. Creative should be ashamed though.

[mips]

It started when the kings told the peasants they could no longer hunt animals in the king's forrests, and every day since we've lost a little more ground.

I like that ;)

[SomeGuyDude]

Welp, guess who's not buyin' that Creative Zen like he was planning on?

If you answered "The SGD", you're right.

[rune0077]

Laws are not always just is the unfortunate world we live in.

Not even by a long shot, unless you're filthy rich:

"Justice doesn't come cheap ... not even if you're innocent."
-Hunter S. Thompson

I agree with everything you said, and I fully hope that people who need those drivers are going to find someway to get them, but we both know how quickly the mods will come down on this thread if we start talking about that.

[mips]

Not even by a long shot, unless you're filthy rich:

"Justice doesn't come cheap ... not even if you're innocent."
-Hunter S. Thompson


The weird thing is that we learn very early in life that life is not fair and come to accept it as such. Why do we accept it though? Is it something we inherit from our parents and society?

This post probably belongs in the backyard though.

[Forrest Gumpp]

Might I suggest that you are wrong about how quickly the moderators will come down on the thread? Provided that the discussion revolves around an exploration of the respective relevant laws involved, and does nor advocate outright illegality, I think you will find them quite tolerant of the discussion.

If you doubt this, have a look through the thread 'Is talking about piracy different from advocating piracy? See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4555870&posted=1#post4555870

Provision of the organizational and financial means to exploit legal loopholes, or exposure of unethical businesses to class action lawsuits, was one of the things in the back of my mind in proposing the seemingly unpopular or misunderstood idea of a 'Thanks Bank' some time back. Whatever the merit or lack thereof in that idea, it seems to me that there is just too much defeatism with respect to such things as co-ordinated FOSS driver production that does not involve copyright breaches.

It might also be that Mark Shuttleworth has made very clever provision for the shelter of these Forums, and the FOSS Ubuntu-related developments that may occur in future, in a jurisdiction a little different to those that such unethical operators as Creative appear to be may be used to operating within. But he can't do it all alone. So don't despair of developing ideas and strategies that can overcome such nonsenses as this 'Creative' one.

[rune0077]

This post probably belongs in the backyard though.

Yeah, it probably does, but it's an interesting enough question you ask. Some do more about it than others, though, and we all do a little more about it when we're teenagers, and then grow a little more indifferent when we become "adults".



If you doubt this, have a look through the thread 'Is talking about piracy different from advocating piracy? See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4555870&posted=1#post4555870


I've been following this thread (even posted in it, but gave up along the way). I'm not entirely convinced the mods wants this kind of discussion, especially not when it isn't in the Forum Feedback section.

[heartburnkid]

Looks like at least one vendor is taking Creative to task for their actions...

http://www.afwarehouse.com/category_s/50.htm

[smoker]

there's an online petition here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/crtvlabs/petition.html

number 4 is the para really relevant to oss though, if anyone wants a look!

[phrostbyte]

The only thing wrong here is the VP of Communications having the tenacity to public post something so stupid. He should be fired from the company. Creative however isn't doing out of the ordinary here, purposefully crappy or nonexistent drivers is a common business decision in the OEM market to get people to upgrade.

And Daniel_K is clearly in the wrong for committing copyright infringement. He has no right to mod Creative's drivers without permission, let alone ask for donations (which is a criminal offense).

[Coolit]

I stopped using creative sound cards about 2-3 years ago after buying an xfi fatality which never worked properly. There is a known issue where you get popping sounds through your speakers with nforce 4 motherboards.

Creative never offered any solution to this even though it effects 100's of users and even suggested it was an Nvidia issue.

I've currently got an Xonar and couldn't be happier :)

[[CPR]-AL.exe]

So what? Why are you all so offended, guys?

It's just marketing. They are right on some case.

Nobody can forbid you to use this drivers. And this email is not a good reason to decline creative's products.

If someone will say, that you are breathing one's air on the Earth, would you try to find another gas to breath? Don't be so reflexive.

[go_beep_yourself]

Does that Daniel K guy make the Xfi cards work on Linux??? That would be great! Even if Creative removes his software from their forums, there's got to be something floating around on the interweb, maybe a torrent.

[K.Mandla]

Closed for necromancy.