[Megathread] Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and the end of the world

[smoker]

i'm just wondering if all my pension contributions have been for nothing!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/28/lhc_cern_hawaiian_botanist_lawsuit/

wonder if there is a ubuntu equivalent on a parallel universe?
:lolflag:

[Ebuntor]

Heh, that must be one of the weirdest articles I have ever read. What I don't quite understand why this botanist would think that smashing some particles together would create a black hole.

[clanky]

I love the bit that talks about "clumsy atom boffins" I have a few preconceptions about atomic scientists, but none of them include clumsiness.

[Whiffle]

Heh, that must be one of the weirdest articles I have ever read. What I don't quite understand why this botanist would think that smashing some particles together would create a black hole.

Actually, they're hoping to create black holes. small ones

http://www.unisci.com/stories/20014/1001012.htm

What it boils down to IMO is people that hear a word like "black hole", and freak out. Similar to people freaking out at any mention of the word "radiation."

[Ebuntor]

I found another article about it by the New York Times that goes into more detail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/science/29collider.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


More fighting in Iraq. Somalia in chaos. People in this country can’t afford their mortgages and in some places now they can’t even afford rice.
None of this nor the rest of the grimness on the front page today will matter a bit, though, if two men pursuing a lawsuit in federal court in Hawaii turn out to be right. They think a giant particle accelerator that will begin smashing protons together outside Geneva this summer might produce a black hole that will spell the end of the Earth — and maybe the universe.
Scientists say that is very unlikely — though they have done some checking just to make sure.
(Article continues below)


The world’s physicists have spent 14 years and $8 billion building the Large Hadron Collider, in which the colliding protons will recreate energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Researchers will sift the debris from these primordial recreations for clues to the nature of mass and new forces and symmetries of nature.
But Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho contend that scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, have played down the chances that the collider could produce, among other horrors, a tiny black hole, which, they say, could eat the Earth. Or it could spit out something called a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of something called “strange matter.” Their suit also says CERN has failed to provide an environmental impact statement as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.
Although it sounds bizarre, the case touches on a serious issue that has bothered scholars and scientists in recent years — namely how to estimate the risk of new groundbreaking experiments and who gets to decide whether or not to go ahead.
The lawsuit, filed March 21 in Federal District Court, in Honolulu, seeks a temporary restraining order prohibiting CERN from proceeding with the accelerator until it has produced a safety report and an environmental assessment. It names the federal Department of Energy, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as defendants.
According to a spokesman for the Justice Department, which is representing the Department of Energy, a scheduling meeting has been set for June 16.
Why should CERN, an organization of European nations based in Switzerland, even show up in a Hawaiian courtroom?
In an interview, Mr. Wagner said, “I don’t know if they’re going to show up.” CERN would have to voluntarily submit to the court’s jurisdiction, he said, adding that he and Mr. Sancho could have sued in France or Switzerland, but to save expenses they had added CERN to the docket here. He claimed that a restraining order on Fermilab and the Energy Department, which helps to supply and maintain the accelerator’s massive superconducting magnets, would shut down the project anyway.
James Gillies, head of communications at CERN, said the laboratory as of yet had no comment on the suit. “It’s hard to see how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe,” Mr. Gillies said.

[smoker]

i didn't know the 'inventer' of the world wide web actually worked at CERN!
from theregister link above:

The LHC is to be run by CERN, the Euro nuclear-physics outfit famous for letting its boffins meddle with things best left alone. Tim Berners-Lee, for instance, invented the web while he was supposed to be playing particle pool at CERN.also on wikepedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

[Ebuntor]

Actually, they're hoping to create black holes. small ones

http://www.unisci.com/stories/20014/1001012.htm

What it boils down to IMO is people that hear a word like "black hole", and freak out. Similar to people freaking out at any mention of the word "radiation."

Thanks for the link. After reading your article I can certainly understand their concerns. I mean at the moment black holes are theoretical.

What I don't understand is what would make these mini black holes disappear? If you can really smash those particles together with such force making them so dense they become a black hole, that gravity well is gonna stay there, what would make it fall apart again?

What would be pretty cool is if they are successful they can finally give Steven Hawking a Nobel prize for his theory. :)

EDIT: The stuff about that parallel universe stuff is completely BS btw. A real black hole would suck up the earth in a fraction of a second and crush it completely.

[hessiess]

Thanks for the link. After reading your article I can certainly understand their concerns. I mean at the moment black holes are theoretical.

What I don't understand is what would make these mini black holes disappear? If you can really smash those particles together with such force making them so dense they become a black hole, that gravity well is gonna stay there, what would make it fall apart again?

What would be pretty cool is if they are successful they can finally give Steven Hawking a Nobel prize for his theory. :)

see CERN website
http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

[days_of_ruin]

Lol nothing is going to happen.

[mips]

Hopefully CERN just gives them the finger, don't see how a US court has any jurisdiction over an EU entity.

[smoker]

it would be great to see Hawkins receive the nobel prize.

(from the Cern link provided by Hessiess above:

Black holes lose matter through the emission of energy via a process discovered by Stephen Hawking. Any black hole that cannot attract matter, such as those that might be produced at the LHC, will shrink, evaporate and disappear. The smaller the black hole, the faster it vanishes. If microscopic black holes were to be found at the LHC, they would exist only for a fleeting moment. They would be so short-lived that the only way they could be detected would be by detecting the products of their decay.

[Patrick-Ruff]

lol, the US seems to like to get into other countries business anyways. although, a safty review wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, I wouldn't take anyone's opinion on physics seriously unless they had studied it for atleast 10 years.

this is seriously advanced stuff here, a part-time physicist who probably doesn't even know half of what he's talking about shouldn't be making claims like this. god damn fear tactics.

[Ebuntor]

see CERN website
http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

Ah, thank you, very interesting, answered all my questions. :) Of course it's logical such a small black hole wouldn't be able to "grow" simply because it wouldn't have any matter to attract before it decays.

(Sure is nice to see a fellow dyslexic online. :) )

[hessiess]

Ah, thank you, very interesting, answered all my questions. :) Of course it's logical such a small black hole wouldn't be able to "grow" simply because it wouldn't have any matter to attract before it decays.

(Sure is nice to see a fellow dyslexic online. :) )

lol :)

I like physics, but suck at maths:(
Iv been watching progress on the LHC since the horizon documentary last year.:)

[smoker]

there are some fascinating facts and figures at their website:
http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Facts-en.html

[clanky]

lol, the US seems to like to get into other countries business anyways. although, a safty review wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, I wouldn't take anyone's opinion on physics seriously unless they had studied it for atleast 10 years.

this is seriously advanced stuff here, a part-time physicist who probably doesn't even know half of what he's talking about shouldn't be making claims like this. god damn fear tactics.

Or god damn book selling tactics?

Whats the betting that shortly after this guy gets himself in the news with this court case a book gets published with the subtitle "from the man who saved the world from a black hole"

[Whiffle]

Or god damn book selling tactics?

Whats the betting that shortly after this guy gets himself in the news with this court case a book gets published with the subtitle "from the man who saved the world from a black hole"

I'd like to be the guy who destroys the world with a black hole, then I could be known as

Whiffle: Destroyer of Worlds

Imagine that on a cover. Too bad there wouldn't be anybody left to buy it...

[kutjara]

I wonder if this guy is the same one that tried to sue the Brookhaven National Laboratory when they started using the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider a few years back. I seem to remember there was some of the same nonsense about "Earth-gobbling black holes" spread about by the media and other refuges for the hard-of-thinking.

The kind of miniature black holes that might be created by the new equipment at CERN would have lifespans in the femtosecond range, and would only be detectable at all from the decay particles left behind after their fleeting existences.

Anyway, such "mini-black holes" are fundamentally different from "real" black holes in that the CERN ones would be created by extremely brief periods of high EXTERNALl pressure (two particles smashing together). Once the pressure is no longer present (because the particles have annihilated each other), the "black hole" will dissipate. "Real" black holes rely on high INTERNAL pressure, generated by enormous quantities of highly compressed matter, to remain stable. I don't see the CERN guys being able to create supermassive stars in the lab, unless I've been very much misinformed.

[rune0077]

Awwww, but i would really have liked to be hurled into a parallel universe at least once before I die.

[Lord Illidan]

Damn, and here I was contemplating building up a list of 10 things to do before being sucked by a black hole. Contents 1 - 9 are unprintable here.
#10 - Installing Windows Vista

[Ebuntor]

Damn, and here I was contemplating building up a list of 10 things to do before being sucked by a black hole. Contents 1 - 9 are unprintable here.

Just curious, what was #10?

[rune0077]

Just curious, what was #10?

Hell, forget 10, I wanna know what the other nine are!

[clanky]

Damn, and here I was contemplating building up a list of 10 things to do before being sucked by a black hole. Contents 1 - 9 are unprintable here.
#10 - Installing Windows Vista

I bet there is a parallel universe somewhere where vista is really good.

Anyway, back to the interesting stuff, what are 1-9

[RRS]

Hopefully CERN just gives them the finger, don't see how a US court has any jurisdiction over an EU entity.

+1

[EdThaSlayer]

So, these "black holes" mean the end of the world?
I will not believe that till I see it happen! Didn't Stephen Hawkings make some theory? He is one of the smartest people in the world.

[rune0077]

I will not believe that till I see it happen! Didn't Stephen Hawkings make some theory? He is one of the smartest people in the world.

Hey, Einstein, Bohr and Oppenheimer also counted amongst the smartest people in the world, and they made a friggin' nuclear bomb!

[AbredPeytr]

Damn, and here I was contemplating building up a list of 10 things to do before being sucked by a black hole. Contents 1 - 9 are unprintable here.
#10 - Installing Windows Vista


If memory serves CERN runs Windows on their machines.
I hope I'm wrong though. Imagine blue screen of death at the most inopportune time :-)

[mozetti]

Hopefully CERN just gives them the finger, don't see how a US court has any jurisdiction over an EU entity.

Yeah, in the article it mentioned that he only added CERN there b/c he didn't want the expense of suing them in a French or Swiss court. FWIW, I don't think anyone in the U.S. gov't is pretending they have jurisdiction over an EU entity.

Basically, this guy is hoping that by getting an injunction against the U.S. Dept of Energy and the Fermi Lab, which contribute to CERN (something about the supermagnets), that he can stop CERN from moving forward.

He seems like a kook.

[Nano Geek]

In a parallel universe, would Ubuntu be the #1 OS and the most hated while Windows and Bill Gates were the underdog?

Scary thought! :shock:

[fatality_uk]

If memory serves CERN runs Windows on their machines. :-)

You are!!! http://linux.web.cern.ch/linux/

CERN has been banging particles together for years. And I see no adverse effects apart from the parallel dimension just outside Basel :D into which I lived a few years ago. The only way to explain the very strange people around there :)

They won't be creating "Black Holes" they will be creating an "event horizon envelope", so I am reliably informed.

[stefangr1]

The CERN is really into extremes... First they give us the internet, then they plan to have the entire universe swallowed up by a black hole.

[mips]

The CERN is really into extremes... First they give us the internet, then they plan to have the entire universe swallowed up by a black hole.

CERN never gave us the internet, DARPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA) (Part of USA DoD) did.
A British researcher, Tim Berners-Lee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee), that worked at CERN did however give us HTML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML) which started the whole WWW thing.

[stefangr1]

CERN never gave us the internet, DARPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA) (Part of USA DoD) did.
A British researcher, Tim Berners-Lee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee), that worked at CERN did however give us HTML (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML) which started the whole WWW thing.

Quote from Wikipedia: "The World Wide Web began as a CERN project called ENQUIRE, initiated by Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau in 1989".

The technologies that the www was based on were already developed earlier, but it was especially the initiation of the world wide web that made them available to the general public.

[mips]

Quote from Wikipedia: "The World Wide Web began as a CERN project called ENQUIRE, initiated by Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau in 1989".

The technologies that the www was based on were already developed earlier, but it was especially the initiation of the world wide web that made them available to the general public.

I don't think you understand what the internet is actually about. WWW & HTML is just something that runs on top of the actual 'Internet' which uses TCP/IP for other protocols like, FTP, Telnet, HTTP etc...

The WWW is NOT the Internet, sorry to say. I used the Internet way before WWW became a reality and so did many other people. Just because it is the more commonly used thing does not make it the 'Internet' like some people believe it to be.

lol, "The Internet is a Series of Tubes!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes) comes to mind here.

[stefangr1]

OK, you're probably right about that. This is however not a topic about what the exact definition of "the internet" is or should be. My point was just that that CERN first gave us something that is - to put it in more safe words - somehow vaguely related to the internet, to subsequently have it maybe or maybe not swallowed by a black hole.

[swoll1980]

Heh, that must be one of the weirdest articles I have ever read. What I don't quite understand why this botanist would think that smashing some particles together would create a black hole.

the forces created in that atom smasher don't occur in nature anywhere out side of the big bang it's self. the cause of a black hole is one of the great mysteries of the universe. A black hole defies all laws of physics. imagine something as small as a basketball so dense it has more mass than the sun. these are the type of crazy forces involved with black holes. since we don't know what cause them and it has to be something spectacular the botanist fears that if you smash an atom hard enough it could be what causes a black hole. but don't worry about an alternate universe the change in gravity that occurs in the event horizon of a small black hole would stretch the earth partical thin and trillions of miles long no chance of surviving that. In string theory there is a partical called a gravatron this gravatron links the theory's of relativity and quantum physics something they have not been able to do as of yet. As of right know there are 2 sets of physics one that works with big things and one that works at the atomic level finding the link between them will unlock the secrets of the universe. So they wont stop smashing atoms together until they do it hard enough to find this gravatron if it even exist, or destroy the universe which ever comes first

[mgmiller]

:lolflag:
This is very funny, I remember a sci fi series called Lexx where this was a theme:

In the sci-fi comedy series Lexx, one character points out that although all-out nuclear war sometimes destroys all life on planets as advanced as Earth, it is much more common for such planets to be obliterated by physicists attempting to determine the precise mass of the Higgs boson particle, since the moment the mass is known the planet will instantly collapse into a nugget of super-dense matter "roughly the size of a pea."


Maybe this is what the botanist saw and is worried about.


http://www.answers.com/topic/higgs-boson-in-fiction?cat=technology

[Acglaphotis]

No, the lhc wil not destroy the earth. (http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/03/29/no-the-lhc-wont-destroy-the-earth/)

[swoll1980]

No, the lhc wil not destroy the earth. (http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/03/29/no-the-lhc-wont-destroy-the-earth/)

All this proves is that they don't know anything about it. Which is why there smashing atoms to begin with. To say it wont destroy the earth is a slightly educated guess

[rune0077]

All this proves is that they don't know anything about it Which is why there smashing atoms to begin with. To say it wont destroy the earth is a slightly educated guess

Official statement: "Well, umn, erh, we sort of, kind of, assume it isn't, umn, going to, erh, destroy the world."

[JAPrufrock]

Lol nothing is going to happen.

Unless something does happen, and then it won't matter anyway.

[swoll1980]

yeah then we would all be gone instantaneously wouldn't even know it was happening

[jrusso2]

Well at least if the Europeans destroy the earth they can't blame the USA for it.

[JAPrufrock]

lol

This isn't the first time that a scientist was worried about CERN. The following is from the book, Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos, by Dennis Overbye:

"In the mid-seventies, physicists at CERN were laying plans for an accelerator that would smash together protons and antiprotons at energies high enough to remelt the Higgs field and re-create the original reunited symmetrical electroweak force- a rebirth of a primordial god."

"Afraid that one of these experiments could trigger the formation of a wall that would sweep out and destroy the universe, [Russian astrophysicist, Yakov Boris] Zeldovich spent several months calculating feverishly before deciding that such walls probably didn't actually exist."

[rune0077]

Well at least if the Europeans destroy the earth they can't blame the USA for it.

Ah, but I'm sure we'll find a way to that anyway :)

[meborc]

well... the scale cern is working on is reallllllllly smally... if any antimater/blackholes are created, they would immediately interact with matter and dissapear releasing huge amounts of energy

if there would be a way to collect this energy and turn it into electrical energy, then we might as well crack the energy crisis...

antimatter has already been created, so this is no news... and we already have positrons, the anti-electrons, from beta+ nuclear decay

[armageddon08]

What do you guys think about the LHC at CERN ?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/30/doomsdaycollider.ap/index.html

Do you think it could be that devastating?? I, for one hard-core particle-physics fanatic, surely don't!!:)

[insane_alien]

i seriously doubt that it will destroy the planet especially as particles with higher energy than the LHC could ever produce are smashing into our planet at a rate of several million per second.

if we were going to die from ultra high energy particles then we would be dead already.

[fiddledd]

i seriously doubt that it will destroy the planet especially as particles with higher energy than the LHC could ever produce are smashing into our planet at a rate of several million per second.

if we were going to die from ultra high energy particles then we would be dead already.

The trouble is, if you are wrong, there'll be nobody left to say "I told you so".:)

[Naiki Muliaina]

Ive been following articles about this in new scientists for ages. I am fascinated by it! Realy excited by it! I dont think it will destroy the earth, but ya know what, if it did, id have no problem dying to this ^^... Sad isnt it.... hehe ^^

Be honest though, you can just imagine a big red button to turn it on. Imagining that big red button... Wouldnt you just love to be the one to press it.... ^^

[KIAaze]

Be honest though, you can just imagine a big red button to turn it on. Imagining that big red button... Wouldnt you just love to be the one to press it.... ^^
http://xkcd.com/401/

I'm more afraid of them NOT finding the Higgs boson! No more standard model! Everything must be redone! :lolflag:

By the way, hasn't it already started?

[JillSwift]

http://xkcd.com/401/

I'm more afraid of them NOT finding the Higgs boson! No more standard model! Everything must be redone! :lolflag:

By the way, hasn't it already started?
It's odd, but I'd be just as excited if the Higgs boson wasn't found as if it were. I think some of the greatest moments in science are when a theory gets smashed by new evidence. Basically, either way we know more than we did before. :D

[KIAaze]

Oh, I'm not that afraid of it, that's why the :lolflag:.

As you said, in either case, we'll know more. :)

[armageddon08]

Be honest though, you can just imagine a big red button to turn it on. Imagining that big red button... Wouldnt you just love to be the one to press it.... ^^

Yeah..........to be THE ONE to either spell doom on the earth (which, I'm damn sure ain't gonna happen) or to take this world to a new level!!:)

[Pogeymanz]

Yes, it has been started, but they are mostly doing test runs and tweaking things.

And like someone pointed out, these particles are not even as energetic as the ones hitting our atmosphere anyway. Anyone who thinks it will end the world has been misinformed. It's absurd.

Unfortunately, even at the energies available at LHC, it will still be difficult to detect the Higgs. It would certainly be frustrating to not see the little thing. Of course, the Higgs experiment is not the only experiment being done at LHC (Just the most exciting for most people).

[Bragador]

I'm kind of proud of the LHC.

I feel like I did my part in it since I ran for a while LHC@home on my computer.

So, I helped with the installation of the big magnets :P

It's completely not in my field of study but science is science!

[~LoKe]

Harmless.

[crimesaucer]

dyslexia is bad.

[cespinal]

http://www.cracked.com/article_16583_5-scientific-experiments-most-likely-end-world.html

meet the Large dammed Hadron f.... collider!!!! LOL!! I just cant get enuff of this :D

[LaRoza]

I said it before. I don't think it will be a problem, but if it were possible to do what those people are afraid of, we should definately turn it on (for the sake of curiosity).

http://icantdrawfeet.com/comics/2008-06-26-LHC.PNG

http://icantdrawfeet.com/2008/06/26/in-other-news-satan-is-still-trapped-outside-van-allen-belt/

[LaRoza]

Harmless.

Mostly Harmless.

[rybu]

Particle physicists have been predicting the imminent detection of the Higgs boson for something like 30 years now. Every time they don't find it, they revise their estimates of the technology it'll take to detect it to just slightly above what they already have. They get a bigger budget and the process repeats.

IMO we're witnessing several failures in particle physics nowadays: the relative lack of success of the theoreticians with an unchecked pursuit of unproductive avenues, together with the "fatness" of the Standard Model allowing for the perpetual putting-off of the culling process, and now we have plenty of experimental data calling into question many of the most basic principles of physics such as the anomalous dynamics of galaxies. "Dark matter" may very well be our generation's "Aether".

Well, that's me in my pessimist mode.

[clinux]

By the way, hasn't it already started?

10 September 2008: http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR06.08E.html

[Hire]

2012 is now :D

[smoker]

Cancel your plans for next Wednesday, it could be your last day on Earth. Or could it?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4682260.ece

think i'll have next wednesday off, have a meal of 'fries and goo', either that or revise my beliefs, lol
:-)

[insane_alien]

Dammit i wondered why virgin media wouldn't upgrade my connection to 10Mb untill the 11th :P

seriously though, nothing will happen. nature has been doing it bigger better and for longer than anything the lhc can do. the only difference with the lhc is that we have a detector.

if i'm wrong i will happly turn into a strangelet like everyone else.

[kenono]

I got told about this in work last week, I laughed but the customer I was with looked a tad worried!

Either way I'm sure it's nothing to worry about and hopefully they'll discover enough to warrant the $5 billion price tag.

[red_Marvin]

I'd rather see us all go in the quest for knowledge than in a war.

I don't think we will be that lucky though.

[insane_alien]

well, if they find the higgs boson then we will have a mechanism for mass and likely see a more complete theory replace general relativity.

if we don't find that but instead find something else we will have to revise the standard model of quantum mechanics. this model has been used with great success for decades and if its predicted something we've found it(so far).

if we don't find anyhting new then again, we will have to revise standard model and it will be a huge thing.

basically, WHATEVER happens(assuming one ofthe magnets doesn't rip itself free again) we're going to end up with a better version of quantum mechanics and perhaps relativity.

[armageddon08]

well, if they find the higgs boson then we will have a mechanism for mass and likely see a more complete theory replace general relativity.

If we don't find that but instead find something else we will have to revise the standard model of quantum mechanics. This model has been used with great success for decades and if its predicted something we've found it(so far).

If we don't find anyhting new then again, we will have to revise standard model and it will be a huge thing.

Basically, whatever happens(assuming one ofthe magnets doesn't rip itself free again) we're going to end up with a better version of quantum mechanics and perhaps relativity.

+1

[R_T_H]

I think a lot of the problems in physics stem back to q-mech. We really do need to reformulate it as background-independent and preferably a realist theory. Then use that for a q-gravity theory, and maybe that'll solve the problems of dark matter :)

[elmer_42]

What I think is cool is the theory of m, which states that there are something like 11 dimensions, but we can only experience three. Think of it like a tightrope walker and an ant, who both end up walking on a tightrope. We are the tightrope walker, and to us there are only two dimensions on the tightrope, forward and backward. But to the ant, there are 4 dimensions, forward, backward, left, and right. At least, that's how they explained it in a science magazine I read.

[mick222]

I'm amazed thought this would have became a "were all doomed " thread.

[EdThaSlayer]

Soon, if there are new physics created as a result of this, we will be able to colonize Mars.:guitar:

[Pogeymanz]

What I think is cool is the theory of m, which states that there are something like 11 dimensions, but we can only experience three. Think of it like a tightrope walker and an ant, who both end up walking on a tightrope. We are the tightrope walker, and to us there are only two dimensions on the tightrope, forward and backward. But to the ant, there are 4 dimensions, forward, backward, left, and right. At least, that's how they explained it in a science magazine I read.

To tell the truth, the whole extra dimensions thing is not as cool as it sounds. A dimension is just another thing we can measure. For example, when you are doing a quantum mechanics problem, you are often working with 5 or more dimensions (x,y,z,time,spin) because those are all important features of the particle in question.

I have also heard, but have no idea of its validity, that a lot of the dimensions that pop out from m-theory don't even correspond to anything physical; that they are just mathematical "leftovers." Again, I don't know if that's true or not.

[Catalyst2Death]

Hello,

I can't help but post because I'm so excited for the the LHC to start. (4 days now) The first beam line will be on Sept 10th. There will be a lot of commissioning that happens before we can even use the data that the LHC produces, and then we have to re-verify all of the results that we've found at the existing particle accelerators.

When all summed, the beam line will carry the energy of a locomotive moving at 200km an hour.

This is a very interesting read: http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/cms/?pid=1000570

sorry, it doesn't discuss the imminent threat of Dragons produced by the LHC.

[god0fgod]

How is it going to be dangerous? It's fine. Be more worried about nukes or something if you have to.

Also, it would be an ambarrissing mistake to spell it Large Hardon Collider by accident.

[mintochris]

To tell the truth, the whole extra dimensions thing is not as cool as it sounds. A dimension is just another thing we can measure. For example, when you are doing a quantum mechanics problem, you are often working with 5 or more dimensions (x,y,z,time,spin) because those are all important features of the particle in question.

I have also heard, but have no idea of its validity, that a lot of the dimensions that pop out from m-theory don't even correspond to anything physical; that they are just mathematical "leftovers." Again, I don't know if that's true or not.

m theory (a unified string theory) postulates extra dimensions, but they aren't 'leftovers', they are what is called "compactified".
A compactified dimension is not a straight axis, but a small loop (at least to visualise).
The presence of a number of compactified dimensions (through which gravity is the only of the four forces to propagate) accounts for the weakness of observed gravity when compared to the EM, strong, and weak forces.
Such an effect could be used to prove the existence of a compactified dimension. By measuring gravity over a scale smaller than the extent of the dimension a proportionally different strength of interaction would result from the addition of gravitons propagating in the extra dimension.

This site covers some of the stuff quite well:
http://d0server1.fnal.gov/users/gll/public/edpublic.htm

edit: also the LHC is in no danger of engulfing the earth in a black hole. The total number of collisions the LHC will execute in it's lifetime will be orders of magnitude less than the number of cosmic ray interactions in the atmosphere that have had the same energy (and hence the same black hole producing potential). If we were going to be killed by it then the world would already have gone :D

[fiddledd]

I feel so reassured that so many people in a Linux forum are certain there's absolutely no danger.:)

[Canis familiaris]

Who cares?
If we were to die We'll die together, so it wont matter.

[FlyingIsFun1217]

I thought it was funny that my dad was 'shipped' over from Fermilab to go help work on it for a while. Just wish I could have gone along to check out Switzerland...

FlyingIsFun1217

[jespdj]

I'm amazed thought this would have became a "were all doomed " thread.
Fortunately there are a lot of sane people here... ;)

Ofcourse it's not going to destroy the world. Real scientists are not like the ones you see in the movies, evil geniuses who are only thinking of plans to conquer or destroy the world.

Did you know that collisions like those that will happen in the LHC happen all the time? Cosmic rays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray) coming from high energy processes in outer space reach Earth all the time and collide with molecules in the atmosphere. So far, the Earth hasn't been destroyed by such collisions of particles. Some of those particles even have energies that are far higher than what the LHC can generate.

The LHC is going to give us great new insights into particle physics and will give us a deeper understanding in how out universe works. It's going to bring us very interesting new discoveries in physics.

[ELD]

I'm amazed thought this would have became a "were all doomed " thread.

WE ARE ALL DOOMED, DOOOOMED

heh

I think it will be great, and if we all die? Ah well we won't know anyway lol

[pp.]

I feel so reassured that so many people in a Linux forum are certain there's absolutely no danger.:)

There's a terribly large number of dangers, but none by the device at CERN that I am aware of. Anyway, it's about 200 miles from where I live, and that's a comfortable distance.

[JillSwift]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514/page/2

[fiddledd]

Imagine it. There's a large ceremony, dignitaries from various countries attend. There are video links to eminent scientists all over the world. They are all waiting anxiously for the big moment. Then it happens, the LHC is switched on, the whole scientific world holds it's breath. Then there's a little puff of smoke and a squeaking noise like a balloon being deflated, and that's it. :)

[jespdj]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/large_hadron_collider.png

http://xkcd.com/401/

[Ripfox]

This happens tomorrow...:)

[zmjjmz]

Next year actually.
They start firing it up today, then they start colliding later this month, and it will reach full power (i.e., more powerful than what's been around before) by next year.

[SomeGuyDude]

the forces created in that atom smasher don't occur in nature anywhere out side of the big bang it's self.

Massively incorrect. One of the defenses of why the LHC won't destroy existence is that cosmic rays cause atomic collisions of this sort all the time, the scientists are simply creating it in a controlled environment.

[uberdonkey5]

There is some evidence for parallel universes, or at least the theory helps to explain some aspects of particle physics. OK, so we are firing things at massive energy towards each other, but the core of the sun has loads of energy, right, and that hasn't disappeared. Indeed, according to Heisenbergs uncertainty principle the earth could actually just spontaneously disappear, but the chances are so tiny as to be negligible. Hmm, and we worry about data loss when we take our laptops on planes :D

P.S. we already have a solution to the energy crisis... don't use as much of it!

[RedPandaFox]

Its ok, we wont die, Gordon Freeman is on it, well... at least it wont cause an infestation of head crabs?

[klange]

Its ok, we wont die, Gordon Freeman is on it, well... at least it wont cause an infestation of head crabs?

The fact that someone that looks just like Freeman is there only furthers the theory that it will create a wormhole.

Black Mesa Incident -> Large Hadron Collider Incident

[RedPandaFox]

The fact that someone that looks just like Freeman is there only furthers the theory that it will create a wormhole.

Black Mesa Incident -> Large Hadron Collider Incident

Well if there is a "Large Hadron Collider Incident" chances are, we aint gona be here to pass the blame and ol' Gordon gets away with it :)

I like to believe that Gordon is there, watching over the project to make sure no head crabs get in the mix to destroy the Earth.

Have faith! Failing that, no doubt if LaRoza detects a problem she can stop it instantly, The Borg knows all

[Trail]

the forces created in that atom smasher don't occur in nature anywhere out side of the big bang it's self. the cause of a black hole is one of the great mysteries of the universe. A black hole defies all laws of physics. imagine something as small as a basketball so dense it has more mass than the sun. these are the type of crazy forces involved with black holes. since we don't know what cause them and it has to be something spectacular the botanist fears that if you smash an atom hard enough it could be what causes a black hole. [...]

Sorry, but this is a highly misinformed post.

Such forces do occur in nature, black holes are not really a mystery, and obviously black holes do not defy the laws of physics. And we do pretty much know what causes black holes (think of it, how else could they predict that black holes might be created if they didn't know about it?)

Read up on it. I recall some books of Igor Novikov I had read, they were pretty good as simplified black hole model explanations.

[easyease]

Ah, but I'm sure we'll find a way to that anyway :)

we will just send a probe into space tonight emitting a binary code message..."the yanks did it". that'll work!

[god0fgod]

I annoys me how everyone thinks the world is comming to an end just because of some expensive science experiemnt.

[pp.]

I am mortally afraid to write a sentence I have never written before. Who knows, perhaps doing that might suddenly cause the universe to disappear.

[Paqman]

Stay current on this issue at:

http://www.hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet. com/

(Check out the page source)

[smoker]

I annoys me how everyone thinks the world is comming to an end just because of some expensive science experiemnt.

hmm, better to just end the world with some cheap second-hand crap:lolflag:

[smoker]

Stay current on this issue at:

http://www.hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet. com/

(Check out the page source)

:lolflag::lolflag::lolflag:

[rune0077]

I annoys me how everyone thinks the world is comming to an end just because of some expensive science experiemnt.

Not all of us thinks the world is coming to an end. Some of us just thinks it's 9 billion dollars wasted on a lot of nothing that could probably have been spend wiser.

[jespdj]

Not all of us thinks the world is coming to an end. Some of us just thinks it's 9 billion dollars wasted on a lot of nothing that could probably have been spend wiser.
If we wouldn't have allowed Albert Einstein and many other genius physicists to do fundamental research you would not have the computer you are now reading this post on as well as many other things that you take for granted.

Fundamental research might seem like it has no immediate purpose, but it is certainly necessary to keep developments in science and engineering going.


I annoys me how everyone thinks the world is comming to an end just because of some expensive science experiemnt.
It is not and will not happen. People who think that the LHC will create a black hole that will swallow the earth are misinformed. Don't believe anything that any random person on TV or Internet tells you about how the world will end.

[smoker]

Not all of us thinks the world is coming to an end. Some of us just thinks it's 9 billion dollars wasted on a lot of nothing that could probably have been spend wiser.


UK’s direct contribution to the LHC is £34m per year, or less than the cost of a pint of beer per adult in the UK per year:
http://www.lhc.ac.uk/about-the-lhc/faqs.html

i'd rather spend a few pints on this than on weapons of mass destruction, or id cards, or Olympic games.:)

[jespdj]

Famous physicist Stephen Hawking says:

Stephen Hawking: Large Hadron Collider vital for humanity (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2710348/Stephen-Hawking-Large-Hadron-Collider-vital-for-humanity.html)


Prof Hawking said the £4.4bn machine, in which scientists are about to recreate conditions just after the Big Bang, is "vital if the human race is not to stultify and eventually die out."

And he sought to ease fears that the machine could have apocalyptic effects. "The world will not come to an end when the LHC turns on," Prof Hawking said, adding: "The LHC is absolutely safe."

Who would you prefer to trust in this matter: one of the world's most well-known physicists or some random botanist who has his own private amateur theory about physics?

Here's a cool video about the LHC by physicist Brian Cox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHs7hu9hgKc&feature=PlayList&p=94A9B76C6189D764&index=0&playnext=1

[rune0077]

If we wouldn't have allowed Albert Einstein and many other genius physicists to do fundamental research you would not have the computer you are now reading this post on as well as many other things that you take for granted.


Nor would we have nuclear bombs, amongst other things. I'd gladly trade my computer in for a world without those. Just because we take something for granted doesn't mean it is necessary. We got by for a few thousand years without all those things.



Fundamental research might seem like it has no immediate purpose, but it is certainly necessary to keep developments in science and engineering going.


Development in science and engineering never got my blood boiling. We turn on the LHC and discover the secret of the Universe, and guess what? We still have to get up tomorrow and go to work, and the day after will be just like the day before, only now we know the secret of the Universe. It won't change anything (and we all know the secret of the Universe is 42 anyway :))


http://www.lhc.ac.uk/about-the-lhc/faqs.html

i'd rather spend a few pints on this than on weapons of mass destruction, or id cards, or Olympic games.:)

Well I agree with that for sure. But if I had the choice, I would rather spend those pints on feeding somebody who needed food, or a whole lot of other things that need more immediate attention.

[phrostbyte]

Development in science and engineering never got my blood boiling. We turn on the LHC and discover the secret of the Universe, and guess what? We still have to get up tomorrow and go to work, and the day after will be just like the day before, only now we know the secret of the Universe. It won't change anything (and we all know the secret of the Universe is 42 anyway :))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

[jespdj]

Well, I'm glad we have computers and we don't have to live in the middle ages anymore.


Development in science and engineering never got my blood boiling. We turn on the LHC and discover the secret of the Universe, and guess what? We still have to get up tomorrow and go to work, and the day after will be just like the day before, only now we know the secret of the Universe. It won't change anything (and we all know the secret of the Universe is 42 anyway :))
If physicists at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century wouldn't have spent so much time, money and energy on discovering quantum theory, the world would be completely different today. We wouldn't have any electronics, and the standard of life would be dramatically less than it is now. And you don't care about that? Ok.... :rolleyes:

We ofcourse don't know yet what consequences the discoveries made with the LHC will have, but it's very important that we understand exactly how the universe works.

[rune0077]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Yeah I read about that one before. Sounds a lot like how the AI enthusiasts used to talk about downloading our minds into computers so we could all go live in a digital paradise. I think it's just an escapist fantasy, and an excuse to not have to get off our couch. No need to raise a finger today, because tomorrow we'll have a high-tech garden of Eden that will save us all. I say forget about tomorrow, let's focus on what needs to be dealt with today.

[god0fgod]

Not all of us thinks the world is coming to an end. Some of us just thinks it's 9 billion dollars wasted on a lot of nothing that could probably have been spend wiser.

That amount of money can buy almost nothing in comparison with today's economics. I think it was money well spent on something that may be able to help as do research in new technologies. It should be able to help us understand high levels of physics which may one day be of use.

[rune0077]

If physicists at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century wouldn't have spent so much time, money and energy on discovering quantum theory, the world would be completely different today. We wouldn't have any electronics, and the standard of life would be dramatically less than it is now. And you don't care about that? Ok.... :rolleyes:


"We" have electronics. Believe it or not, there's still places on this planet where they don't. There's also certainly places on this planet who would have been much better off, if science had not progressed. If by "We" you just mean yourself, then sure you are better off, but not everyone is. But all that aside, sure, I'm glad we have those things, I'm just saying they were never a necessity, they're a luxury.



We ofcourse don't know yet what consequences the discoveries made with the LHC will have, but it's very important that we understand exactly how the universe works.

I don't think it's important at all. Honestly, do you imagine that this world would have been very different, if we had never figured out what gravity is? If we still thought the world was flat? Or that the sun orbited around the earth? There would have been lots of stuff we wouldn't have known, by I see the day-to-day life as being no different for not knowing these things. There's people who don't believe in Evolution, and their daily lives are exactly the same as those who do. It makes no difference whether we know the secrets of the Universe or not. ... Man, I'm being really Nihilistic right now, I know. I'll be in a better mood tomorrow, if the world hasn't ended before that :)

[pp.]

Nor would we have nuclear bombs, amongst other things. ... We got by for a few thousand years without all those things.

And how enjoyable it was, dying at an early age for want of dental surgery, to name but one example of how life was so much better a few thousand years ago.

[jespdj]

If we would not have science, we would still be living in the dark middle ages, where people didn't get much older than 40 and where the world was reigned by belief in supernatural nonsense.

Do you seriously think that it would not matter if we wouldn't have the progress of science? Strange.

[rune0077]

And how enjoyable it was, dying at an early age for want of dental surgery, to name but one example of how life was so much better a few thousand years ago.

I never said life was better. And there's still people all over the world dying today for want of dental surgery, or from minor infection, or stupid diseases that could easily have been dealt with if they could only afford the medicine.

[rune0077]

If we would not have science, we would still be living in the dark middle ages, where people didn't get much older than 40 and where the world was reigned by belief in supernatural nonsense.

Do you seriously think that it would not matter if we wouldn't have the progress of science? Strange.

I think you're misunderstanding me (or that I'm not expressing myself well enough). There's lots of good science out there. The history of medicine has shown a lot of progress and saved a lot of lives. Electricity is great. Things that refrigerate my food is great. These are useful sciences. But the whole "looking into the secrets of the universe" thing, seems to irrelevant to me. Knowing evolution, what can I use that for? How do I apply it to something useful? Medicine will cure me when I'm sick, a stove will heat my food, but what does knowing that the earth is not flat do for me? I'm all for practical science, it's just the whole "let's solve the riddle, just for the heck of it" kind of science I don't care for.

[jespdj]

... But the whole "looking into the secrets of the universe" thing, seems to irrelevant to me. Knowing evolution, what can I use that for? How do I apply it to something useful? Medicine will cure me when I'm sick, a stove will heat my food, but what does knowing that the earth is not flat do for me? I'm all for practical science, it's just the whole "let's solve the riddle, just for the heck of it" kind of science I don't care for.
Practical science comes out of theoretical science and fundamental research. If you don't know how electrons and other particles work, then it's impossible to invent electronic devices. Fundamental research is a prerequisite for practical science.

[god0fgod]

The LHC is basically trying to work out how particles work and get to this Higgs boson bit, whatever it is. Things like this I'm sure will help dramatically in studies of quantum physics. People suggest this could be a stepping stone towards antimatter energy which is 100% clean nuclear energy and for the far future maybe negative energy and stuff (Portals, warp drives and things I read about once).

Science links directly into technology. Technology that can really help the world.

I don't understand most of it but from what I see it looks interesting.

[rune0077]

Practical science comes out of theoretical science and fundamental research. If you don't know how electrons and other particles work, then it's impossible to invent electronic devices. Fundamental research is a prerequisite for practical science.

I think you got it backwards. Technology is not dependent on science, but science is very dependent on the available technology. Galileo wasn't a great genius than all astronomers before him, he was just the first astronomer who had a telescope. No one knew anything about microbiology until the microscope was invented. And no one could smash particles together at very high speeds until they build the LHC. Science can only go as far as the available technology allows, but technology can easily exist without knowledge of the science behind it. The first wheel was invented long before anyone knew anything about motion and kinetics. Medicine was used long before we knew what proteins where.

[god0fgod]

Technology relies on new science and the newer science relies on that technology.

It goes both ways.

[smoker]

... but what does knowing that the earth is not flat do for me? I'm all for practical science, it's just the whole "let's solve the riddle, just for the heck of it" kind of science I don't care for.

who says it's not?
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
:)

[rune0077]

The LHC is basically trying to work out how particles work and get to this Higgs boson bit, whatever it is. Things like this I'm sure will help dramatically in studies of quantum physics. People suggest this could be a stepping stone towards antimatter energy which is 100% clean nuclear energy and for the far future maybe negative energy and stuff (Portals, warp drives and things I read about once).

Science links directly into technology. Technology that can really help the world.


As I said above, it's actually the other way around. But okay, if we actually do get free energy out of this (and, more importantly, if the people making money selling energy allows us to get it), then I'll gladly eat my words. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, and think that this thing will give us a lot of knowledge and nothing useful at all.

[rune0077]

Technology relies on new science and the newer science relies on that technology.

It goes both ways.

Yeah, I agree, but in a chicken and egg question, technology definitely came first. There was technology (like the wheel) long before there was science.


who says it's not?
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
:)

I've seen the site before. :) I should join. I want the earth to be flat.

[god0fgod]

Free energy? It isn't free. Nothing in life is free.

You have to make the antimatter first. This requires energy itself and lots of research.

And I said science and technology go both ways and rely on one another. Science is how things work and technology is getting things to work.

Edit: I wish it said if there were posts before mine. :(

Makes things confusing.

[SeanHodges]

Electricity is great. Things that refrigerate my food is great. These are useful sciences. But the whole "looking into the secrets of the universe" thing, seems to irrelevant to me. Knowing evolution, what can I use that for? How do I apply it to something useful?

Medicine will cure me when I'm sick, a stove will heat my food, but what does knowing that the earth is not flat do for me? I'm all for practical science, it's just the whole "let's solve the riddle, just for the heck of it" kind of science I don't care for.

lol Are you, by any chance, Karl Pilkington?

[jespdj]

No, you're the one who thinks backwards... :rolleyes:

If scientists had not discovered particles such as electrons and hadn't come up with quantum theory, then it would never have been possible to invent electronics, for example. Before you can invent anything practical, you need to have a theoretical basis.

Medical "science" before the discovery of microbes, proteines etc. was just trial and error. With knowledge about what causes diseases (microbes for example), we're much better able to invent effective medicines.

The point is that whether you like it or not, fundamental research is very important for the human race.

(And the LHC is very cheap compared to what the US's war in Iraq costs, for example).

(It's getting late here and I'm going to bed now).

[klange]

The fact that someone that looks just like Freeman is there only furthers the theory that it will create a wormhole.

Black Mesa Incident -> Large Hadron Collider Incident

I've just recently been informed that the GMan has in fact been found at CERN.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/abc7896321045/Other/256fu4g.jpg

We are most definitely screwed.

[smoker]

doesn't the guy second from right look like the bond baddie, only someone's airbrushed out the cat?lol

[god0fgod]

If scientists had not discovered particles such as electrons and hadn't come up with quantum theory, then it would never have been possible to invent electronics, for example. Before you can invent anything practical, you need to have a theoretical basis.



Quantum physics had nothing to do with electronics. That has come around very recently. Electricity came with simple experiements with wires and rubbish.

However quantum computing is something we can benefit from. No idea how it would work. I mean how can a qubit be a 0 and a 1 at the same time? How would the computer know what it wants to be? lol

[rune0077]

lol Are you, by any chance, Karl Pilkington?

Am I who? ... Well, I can assure you, last time I checked, I was not this fellow, whoever he is.

[god0fgod]

Dual personalities?

[rune0077]

Dual personalities?

Quite possibly. It must be that quantum theory: I'm this guy and I'm me and both at the same time, except when someone observes me :)

[god0fgod]

lol Or perhaps in different parallel universes.

[Trail]

Quantum physics had nothing to do with electronics. That has come around very recently. Electricity came with simple experiements with wires and rubbish.

However quantum computing is something we can benefit from. No idea how it would work. I mean how can a qubit be a 0 and a 1 at the same time? How would the computer know what it wants to be? lol

Look up superconductors, for example. Which, ironically, are used in LHC.

[god0fgod]

I found no useful information. That just look like some sort of a magnet to me.

[Trail]

Which are realised due to quantum physics.

(Well, I should have quoted more previous text, I was referring to the applications of quantum theory).

[3rdalbum]

The concerns about the LHC centres around what black holes are theorised to do. They are supposed to emit radiation that nobody knows anything about, slowly shrinking due to loss of mass.

Except, of course, that the LHC pushes around a lot of mass at high speeds. Feeding the black hole very quickly. Of course, if the black hole shrinks when it loses mass, it grows when mass goes into it. Now, it depends where exactly the miniature black holes form, but if they form too close to the wall of the accelerator, then the machine could be punctured and then who on earth knows what might happen? There's a lot of mass in the Earth!

There is also the issue of the "strangelet" - it's like King Midas, in that any matter it touches then becomes "dark matter". And the "dark matter" also converts any matter it touches. I think the chance of creating strangelets is too low to worry about, considering it's hypothetical and (I believe) completely fiction anyway.

If we escape disaster this time, there will be more powerful particle accelerators, and the LHC will be upgraded in about 10-15 years time. And in the meantime, I'm not convinced that we'll see any tangiable benefits to this research.

If you want to play around with black holes, please do so where there is almost no matter to feed them. In other words, build your particle accelerators in space. There would be challenges, but also benefits as well.

[Canis familiaris]

And Gordon Freeman would have to pick up his crowbar and travel to the "Border World" Xen in order to clear that mess.

[Trail]

Oh well, if you are so certain that the world is coming to an end within 0-15 years, go take a long-term loan, rob a bank or something. You'll live more comfortably and won't have to pay it off.

What's that? You're not going to do it? ...

[piousp]

Check this out! (http://blog.scopeport.org/nix/lhc-kde/)

Isn't it amazing!

[Canis familiaris]

That's cool. :)

[piousp]

Isn't it?
I mean, 'linux is "making"' antiparticles :KS and doing some of the most avanced experiments in the world.
:KS:KS

[Pogeymanz]

Everyone doing particle physics uses Scientific Linux, which is based off of CentOS. It installs both Gnome and KDE by default, so each user has whichever he prefers.

...Too bad I prefer Openbox...

[damis648]

Awesome! Proof that KDE is out to destroy the world! :popcorn:

[Sycron]

I think GNOME would be the survivor in this world. I'll just wait til 2012. :lolflag: I don't want to die. I have a life, a family, cats, garden, school, linux ToDo's... etc

[aaaantoine]

I noticed that screenshot of the test results and saw that the window border was non-Windows. It didn't surprise me.

[god0fgod]

It's not a black hole generator.

[god0fgod]

404 :( Any equivelent working link?

[sydbat]

Same here. No dice on the page. Another link??

[perce]

I've met a few people working at CERN when I was in graduate school, and they had all been using Linux since ages.

[god0fgod]

I managed to get though but if it fails again:

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/9890/ohptoftimemeasured13sepjy2.th.png (http://img388.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ohptoftimemeasured13sepjy2.png)

[hessiess]

page loads *verry* slowly.


Isn't it amazing!

not rilly, a large reserch project like the LHC would need a stable OS.

[god0fgod]

Those graphs and data representations are bloody confusing lol.

[rune0077]

Oh well, if you are so certain that the world is coming to an end within 0-15 years, go take a long-term loan, rob a bank or something. You'll live more comfortably and won't have to pay it off.

What's that? You're not going to do it? ...

I already live every day like it's the last: I don't need the LHC for that.

[BlackLLama]

so did they get any interesting results from the hadron collider yesterday, any results actually released? discuss

[nc_jed]

so did they get any interesting results from the hadron collider yesterday, any results actually released? discuss

Apart from the microscopic black hole that was going to be formed and swallow the earth (which would yield immediate results), I think it will take ~ 2 years to analyze the data from the first test.

[clanky]

As far as I understand it they have only just switched the thing on, they have not actually started throwing bits of atom at each other yet which is what (so some people say) has the potential to turn us all into an episode of star trek.

[BlackLLama]

do any technologies actually advance with a more intricate knowledge of the bing bang

[god0fgod]

Experiments begin on the 21st of October. Yesterday was a test to see if the protons can be accelerated.

[BlackLLama]

did they actually successfuly make mini black holes or what

[Lostincyberspace]

do any technologies actually advance with a more intricate knowledge of the bing bang
They can reveal the nature of particles which will help in designing quantum computers.

[god0fgod]

did they actually successfuly make mini black holes or what

You obviosuly have no idea.

[fiddledd]

did they actually successfuly make mini black holes or what

Yes they made 3, 2 have already been sold on Ebay. If you are quick you might be able to buy the last one.:)

[BlackLLama]

You obiosuly have no idea.

zero, i made this thread for answers, since digg only has "STUNNING IMAGES OF THE COLLIDER" no actual info

[god0fgod]

http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en-GB&q=LHC&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Digg is useless. Google is useful.

[Erdaron]

Modern electronics couldn't have come about without quantum mechanics, because much of it can't function according to classical physics. Transistors, for example, rely on classically-forbidden behavior of electrons. Lasers are another blatant example where classical physics seem to be violated. But the first strides in quantum mechanics were completely theoretical.

Understanding of evolution - especially in mathematical terms - produces things like adaptive and learning programs.

True, science relies on existing technology to make breakthroughs, but scientists use existing technology in ways it was designed. When people discovered glass, no one thought you could make imaging lenses out of it. It just looked pretty. Even when people came up with lenses, no one thought they could be used to figure out how the solar system is set up.

Scientists are hackers.

Surely, technological progress brings about positive and negative results, but the positive outweigh the negative. In order to have no negative outcomes, you'd have to have no outcomes at all.

Also, hooray for LHC!

[BlackLLama]

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

[phaed]

They only turned on one of the proton beams, so there haven't been any particle collisions. High energy collisions will begin Oct 21.

[elmer_42]

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
:lol: Hahaha, nice.

I think what they did yesterday was just test to see if they could start colliding. When they do, one of the things I'm excited about (I read this in a science mag a few weeks back) is the theory of m, which says that there are like 11 dimensions, but we can only experience 3. If they shoot particles, and they end up with more particles or less particles than they started with, they know that those particles went into or came out of one of those other dimensions. Crazy to think about, I know.

[sleepingdragon]

I can imagine the first black hole it creates will have a pair of hands slowly curl their fingers around the edge of the event horizon.... OMG! Goatse is God!

[Sealbhach]

They haven't done any collsions yet. When they do, and catasptrophic black holes are created, it may take four years for them to grow large enough to destroy the planet.

So says Professor Otto Rosler:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1053091/Meet-Evans-Atom-end-world-Wednesday.html


But a handful of scientists believe that the experiment could create a shower of unstable black holes that could ‘eat’ the planet from within, and they are launching last-ditch efforts to halt it in the courts.

One of them, Professor Otto Rossler, a retired German chemist, said he feared the experiment may create a devastating quasar – a mass of energy fuelled by black holes – inside the Earth.

‘Nothing will happen for at least four years,’ he said. ‘Then someone will spot a light ray coming out of the Indian Ocean during the night and no one will be able to explain it.

‘A few weeks later, we will see a similar beam of particles coming out of the soil on the other side of the planet. Then we will know there is a little quasar inside the planet.’

Prof Rossler said that as the spinning-top-like quasar devoured the world from within, the two jets emanating from it would grow and catastrophes such as earthquakes and tsunamis would occur at the points they emerged from the Earth.

‘The weather will change completely, wiping out life, and very soon the whole planet will be eaten in a magnificent scenario – if you could watch it from the moon. A Biblical Armageddon. Even cloud and fire will form, as it says in the Bible.’



.

[Polygon]

i read in the newspaper that even IF any blackholes were created, they would dissapear almost instantly because of hawkings radiation or something.

btw, that webcam site was amazing.

[jomiolto]

I'm still waiting for the LHC to open a portal and summon Cthulhu...

[Sealbhach]

What a fantastic title for an article!


Boffinry bitchslap brouhaha: Higgs and Hawking head to head


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/11/higgs_v_hawking_boffinry_deathmatch/


.

[issih]

Yesterday they rolled marbles round the roulette wheel in both directions....at some point in october they will roll them in both directions at the same time and bang them together... Nothing interesting will happen until this is done.

The point is not to create black holes, its to see what happens, thats about it, there are theories, but no one is sure :)

As to why most scientists don't bother fretting about the world going kablooey, there are cosmic rays (jets of particles coming from space whacking into earths atmosphere) which are whacking into atoms in the atmosphere at velocities equivalent to the LHC. This happens all the time every day, and has done for millions of years, without the world mysteriously turning inside out.

cosmic rays are mostly made up of protons, and you can bet that some of them hit hydrogen nuclei (i.e. more protons) therefore the experiment has been done in nature many many times, and we are still here, the only real difference with the lhc is we control where the events occur and can arrange for them to occur inside some dirty great big detectors so we can see what comes out.

[clanky]

Loved the webcam link.

It just needed Spok's coffin to come flying out of the black hole for it to be perfect.

[rune0077]

True, science relies on existing technology to make breakthroughs, but scientists use existing technology in ways it was designed. When people discovered glass, no one thought you could make imaging lenses out of it. It just looked pretty. Even when people came up with lenses, no one thought they could be used to figure out how the solar system is set up.

Scientists are hackers.


They aren't always hackers, though. The first telescope was invented by a guy who had nothing to do with science, who, according to the myth, wasn't even very smart, and who made it more by accident than anything else. But his creation became a curiosity, and when Galileo heard about it, he wanted to buy one of these new devices. He couldn't (some aristocrat had already bought the only one available), so Galileo instead set about inventing his own telescope (which then turned out to be tremendously better than anything previously built). I do agree with what you said, though, a lot of science is about putting available technology to use in new ways (the first computer was built for the sole purpose of cracking Nazi encryption, and now they're used in practically every field of science). But I think we'd be surprised if we knew how much of technology came about entirely by accident, or how much of science wasn't so much the work of geniuses as it was just the luck of being in the right place at the right time.

[graabein]

I'm gonna sue them also. Cern has a lot of money and I'm stupid, give me some! /sarcasm

[kef_kf]

They aren't always hackers, though. The first telescope was invented by a guy who had nothing to do with science, who, according to the myth, wasn't even very smart, and who made it more by accident than anything else. But his creation became a curiosity, and when Galileo heard about it, he wanted to buy one of these new devices. He couldn't (some aristocrat had already bought the only one available), so Galileo instead set about inventing his own telescope (which then turned out to be tremendously better than anything previously built). I do agree with what you said, though, a lot of science is about putting available technology to use in new ways (the first computer was built for the sole purpose of cracking Nazi encryption, and now they're used in practically every field of science). But I think we'd be surprised if we knew how much of technology came about entirely by accident, or how much of science wasn't so much the work of geniuses as it was just the luck of being in the right place at the right time.


in this day and age you really cant acquire the knowledge merely by basic experience, observation and dumb luck. you keep referring to the times when science was basically crawling compared to today. agreed there are (and were back then) other methods of gathering information but scientific method is by far the most powerful and effective way to uncovering the mysteries of the world.
im open to changing my mind if you can come up with a way to improve ssd technology or medical imaging technologies with a wheel and a telescope but i highly doubt that.

[pp.]

But I think we'd be surprised if we knew (...) how much of science wasn't so much the work of geniuses (...)

You might be fairly surprised if you knew how much of science wasn't due to geniuses but to some hard working plain scientists.

[rune0077]

in this day and age you really cant acquire the knowledge merely by basic experience, observation and dumb luck.

No, but even in this day and age, you can easily acquire new knowledge that you never intended to acquire as a result of chance and dumb luck, and these remains important factors within the fields of both technology and science (not to mention History).

[kef_kf]

No, but even in this day and age, you can easily acquire new knowledge that you never intended to acquire as a result of chance and dumb luck, and these remains important factors within the fields of both technology and science (not to mention History).

i concur.

[swoll1980]

Massively incorrect. One of the defenses of why the LHC won't destroy existence is that cosmic rays cause atomic collisions of this sort all the time, the scientists are simply creating it in a controlled environment.

The direct, head on smashing of atoms at light speed inside a little, electromagnetic tube occurs in nature? You must be in one of those alternate universes I keep hearing about.

[swoll1980]

Sorry, but this is a highly misinformed post.

Such forces do occur in nature, black holes are not really a mystery, and obviously black holes do not defy the laws of physics. And we do pretty much know what causes black holes (think of it, how else could they predict that black holes might be created if they didn't know about it?)

Read up on it. I recall some books of Igor Novikov I had read, they were pretty good as simplified black hole model explanations.

Where do you guys get some of this crap from? What causes a black hole? Since your so educated on the topic

[Whiffle]

The direct, head on smashing of atoms at light speed inside a little, electromagnetic tube occurs in nature? You must be in one of those alternate universes I keep hearing about.


Actually they're not smashing atoms together usually, they're smashing much smaller things, protons. Although at sometimes it'll be Pb ions, one month a year.

And yes, it happens in nature. Sometimes they're more powerful than the ones at the LHC.
http://www.physorg.com/news94983246.html



These high-energy rays produce collisions that are 30 times as energetic than the ones to be produced at the world's largest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, in Switzerland.

[swoll1980]

And yes, it happens in nature. Sometimes they're more powerful than the ones at the LHC.
http://www.physorg.com/news94983246.html

Those collisions happen in open space. There's no tube, there's no atmosphere, there's no atmospheric pressure. I'm not saying it's going to end the world or even make a fizzle for that matter, but it's not natural. To me it would be comparable to a bullet. Inside the gun the bullet produces a massive amount of energy that is focused in one direction, out side the gun the bullet is harmless. A pipe bomb would be another example the resistance of the pipe creates a larger amount of energy as apposed to just putting the explosive on the ground and lighting it on fire(it wouldn't even explode)

[init1]

Experiments begin on the 21st of October. Yesterday was a test to see if the protons can be accelerated.
LOL that's my birthday. Hopefully not my last :D

[doas777]

Actually, the world did end yesterday. however the means by which it was destroyed (being unintentionally compressed into an ultra dense particle the size of a pea by scientists attempting to determine the mass of the Higgs boson) caused a temporal dilation effect, and we just haven't noticed it yet (nor will we in our lifetimes).

or maybe not.

[Whiffle]

Those collisions happen in open space. There's no tube, there's no atmosphere, there's no atmospheric pressure. I'm not saying it's going to end the world or even make a fizzle for that matter, but it's not natural. To me it would be comparable to a bullet. Inside the gun the bullet produces a massive amount of energy that is focused in one direction, out side the gun the bullet is harmless. A pipe bomb would be another example the resistance of the pipe creates a larger amount of energy as apposed to just putting the explosive on the ground and lighting it on fire(it wouldn't even explode)

Ok, your definition of "natural" is screwed up. Because by what seems to be your definition, what goes on inside our Sun isn't natural either. And the Sun is as natural as they come.

I'm not really seeing your bullet analogy. Are you saying the LHC is going to explode, because its in a tube?

[Tatty]

The CERN website has a section addressing the safety of the experiments.

http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html


In short, it explains that what is being done at CERN happens all the time around us in nature, so no need to worry.

[spupy]

Stay informed!
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/

[swoll1980]

Are you saying the LHC is going to explode, because its in a tube?

I'm not saying anything(as I said before). Just taking extra things into consideration that's all.

[rune0077]

Ok, your definition of "natural" is screwed up. Because by what seems to be your definition, what goes on inside our Sun isn't natural either. And the Sun is as natural as they come.

I'm not really seeing your bullet analogy. Are you saying the LHC is going to explode, because its in a tube?

Natural= when it happens on it's own in nature.
Not-quite-so-natural = when humans tries to replicate, artificially, what happens in nature.

Conception happens all the time, quite naturally, but even though science can replicate the process artificially, it hardly means it's the same thing. The same principle applies here: what space does may be quite different from what a few scientists with delusions of grandeur tries to imitate with their big shiny machine.

[Trail]

Where do you guys get some of this crap from? What causes a black hole? Since your so educated on the topic

I am not about to describe the mechanisms here. Read up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_collapse for example.

Edit: And by the way, the inside of the LHC `pipe' has less density than outer space. It might not be natural, but it is a controlled environment.

[swoll1980]

I am not about to describe the mechanisms here. Read up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_collapse for example.

Edit: And by the way, the inside of the LHC `pipe' has less density than outer space. It might not be natural, but it is a controlled environment.

This artical describes the death of stars, and at the end describes what a black hole might be. Super masive black holes are what we're talking about, and not why they are here, but how they started. What causes a super masive black hole. Every star that dies does not become a super massive black hole, so where do they come from? These are all educated guesses anyways. I would thing that the gravity is slowing down time, not holding in the light just slowing it down to a crawl, but that's just speculation.

[Trail]

These are not supermassive black holes; but rather regular ones. Supermassive ones are theorized to be at the center of large gallaxies (and probably quazars). They go to a scale of millions of solar masses, and I think they had measured one planar object to fit the description.

Certainly these holes are not what *might* be created inside the LHC, but you asked of a way that black holes are created, and I gave you an example (gravitanional collapse that is).

The black holes inside the collider would be of atomic scale, called micro black holes. It is believed that black holes have entropy, thus temperature, so they radiate that temperature, and lose energy (=mass), so they would eventually evaporate. This is the Hawking radiation. I had read in one of Novikov's books that a black hole emits radiation with a wavelength equal to the diameter of the hole. Thus, big black holes emit radiation with a larger wavelength, which means lower energy (l=hf). Inversely, small black holes emit high-energy waves, which means they lose mass faster. For black holes of atomic scale sizes, they would evaporate almost instantly releasing a lot of energy. (And the scientists hope that the 'explosion' will release some particles they are looking for, in case this happens).

Of course, Hawking radiation is not proved, so you might say they might not evaporate. But creation of those micro black holes and their evaporation is described by the same theory, so either they evaporate, or they are not created at all.

[t0p]

What it boils down to IMO is people that hear a word like "black hole", and freak out. Similar to people freaking out at any mention of the word "radiation."

RADIATION??!! :o OMG, those clumsy nuclear physicists are gonna kill us all!!!

;)

[t0p]

Awwww, but i would really have liked to be hurled into a parallel universe at least once before I die.

Maybe you have. Maybe this particle-banging experiment has caused the earth to be sucked into a mini-blackhole then regurgitated into a parallel universe where everything is the same as this one except for my punctuation. skills,

If the universe changed around us, all of a sudden, and by such a slight amount, we wouldn't notice. Just think about it. This hadron-smashing experiment would have yielded cosmic-scale results, and all those boffins at Cern wouldn't even have noticed!

Awww!! Poor little boffins!

[rune0077]

Maybe you have. Maybe this particle-banging experiment has caused the earth to be sucked into a mini-blackhole then regurgitated into a parallel universe where everything is the same as this one except for my punctuation. skills,

If the universe changed around us, all of a sudden, and by such a slight amount, we wouldn't notice. Just think about it. This hadron-smashing experiment would have yielded cosmic-scale results, and all those boffins at Cern wouldn't even have noticed!

Awww!! Poor little boffins!

Maybe we're being hurled into a new parallel universe every day, now, ever since they turned it on, and we just don't notice it?

Hey, I like your sig, Goldman is great (did you know historians are claiming she never said that, it was just something that got credited to her, and it kind of sounds like something she would have said?)

[t0p]

Nor would we have nuclear bombs, amongst other things. I'd gladly trade my computer in for a world without those.

Screw that, man! Instant vaporisation, fallout contamination and nuclear winter are a small price to pay for the ability to play tetris on my eeepc!



Just because we take something for granted doesn't mean it is necessary. We got by for a few thousand years without all those things.


You're so wrong. In stone-age times, Ug the caveman had to club cavewomen senseless and drag them back to his cave for a spot of procreation. Now we can meet chicks-who-are-really-guys in seedy online chatrooms.

[t0p]

Hey, I like your sig, Goldman is great (did you know historians are claiming she never said that, it was just something that got credited to her, and it kind of sounds like something she would have said?)

Grrr!! Flamin' historians really XXXX me off!! Always wanna disprove things!

I agree that Emma Goldman was great. And I like Wikipedia's description of her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman):


She was lionized as a free-thinking "rebel woman" by admirers, and derided by critics as an advocate of politically motivated murder and violent revolution.

My kinda gal!! :)

[fiddledd]

(...)Every star that dies does not become a super massive black hole, so where do they come from?

They are created by experiments conducted in Cern labs that are in parallel universes. It's our turn to make the next one.:)

[SeanHodges]

Natural= when it happens on it's own in nature.
Not-quite-so-natural = when humans tries to replicate, artificially, what happens in nature.

Er, so wait, what are humans? unnatural?


Worst case scenario IMO: we finally find out how the Universe was created... It started with a bunch of intelligent lifeforms from the last universe who built a LHC to find out how the Universe was created...

[pp.]

It's our turn to make the next one.:)

or else?

[fiddledd]

or else?

Erm... nope, you got me there.

[marufaberlin]

What do you think?

[pp.]

I think that there are already enough threads on that particular topic in UF.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Indeed, and its like this with every new technology...

[LaRoza]

Mega thread will be made ;)

Hope it doesn't form a black hole and kill us all...

[marufaberlin]

@pp: I didnt find any threads on that topic, sorry.

P.S. (this thread is not meant sincerely :))

[pp.]

Mega thread will be made ;)

Hope it doesn't form a black hole and kill us all...

Thanks. And how can we tell if we all reassemble in the succeeding universe?

[Yannick Le Saint kyncani]

Mega thread will be made ;)

Hope it doesn't form a black hole and kill us all...

Well, as long as I can freely get in and out of this thread any time I want, I'm fine with it :)

[FuturePilot]

Mega thread will be made ;)

Hope it doesn't form a black hole and kill us all...

OMG you just collided multiple threads!!! :o

[marufaberlin]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/turn-on.png

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/large_hadron_collider.png

both images came from www.xkcd.org :guitar:

[SZF2001]

both images came from www.xkcd.org :guitar:

And weren't funny.

[mike1234]

If memory serves CERN runs Windows on their machines.
I hope I'm wrong though. Imagine blue screen of death at the most inopportune time :-)

http://www.tectonic.co.za/ads/www/delivery/lg.php?bannerid=5&campaignid=3&zoneid=5&channel_ids=,&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linux.org%2Fnews%2F2008%2F09% 2F11%2F0003.html&cb=75ec2d7916

Large Hadron Collider runs Linux (http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=3006)

Linux called into service for project that can’t afford a Blue Screen of Death.


M.
arge Hadron Collider runs Linux

Large Hadron Collider runs Linux

[jespdj]

And weren't funny.
That's your opinion. I find them both quite funny. :D

[Yannick Le Saint kyncani]

both images came from www.xkcd.org :guitar:

And were very good ;)

[MaindotC]

Yes they made 3, 2 have already been sold on Ebay. If you are quick you might be able to buy the last one.:)

Indiana Jones also found the Holy Grail - they have a stand set up in Iskenderun and you can get a drink for $50 and have eternal life.

[smoker]

...you can get a drink for $50 and have eternal life.

hmm, one way to beat the LHC apocalypse:lolflag:

[dr.phees]

My flatmate couldn't resist to make some pictures relating to the LHC hype and I couldn't resist in turn to write a little story.
http://blog.phees.de/uploads/pictures/black.holed.earth.serendipityThumb.jpg
Have fun reading it (http://blog.phees.de/index.php?/archives/29-Eater-Of-The-Worlds.html) :)

p.s. we even made a nice screen background.

[KIAaze]

Found this over slashdot (http://science.slashdot.org/science/08/09/18/2328200.shtml) in case anybody missed it:


"A 30-ton transformer in the Large Hadron Collider malfunctioned, requiring complete replacement on the day the LHC came online."

GORDON! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
http://www.shacknews.com/images/image-o-matic.x?/images/sshots/Screenshot/10698/10698_48c7161254f4d.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/256fu4g.jpg

:lolflag:

[daverich]

well,-

personally I'd be quite happy if the world was sucked into a black hole instantly crushing everything.

Quite a nice way to go,- and good riddance to an awful species that sooner or later would try to mine/burn/pollute the entire universe.

Have a nice day :)


Kind regards

Dave Rich

[Jordanwb]

Isn't there some kind of scientific law that says that tiny black holes evapourate really quickly? Ah yes see post #11. I'm not worried.

Question: What is the LHC colliding? Is it Atoms or parts of the atoms?

[rune0077]

Quite a nice way to go,- and good riddance to an awful species that sooner or later would try to mine/burn/pollute the entire universe.


That's a rather selfish attitude, isn't it? All the nice and innocent animals would be sucked into the hole as well.

[Whiffle]

Here's a live webcam they've got going over there, pretty neat to watch'm work.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

[Whiffle]

whoops, double post. I fail..

[Jordanwb]

Here's a live webcam they've got going over there, pretty neat to watch'm work.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

You jerk. :)

(I did not intend to sound mean)

[BigSilly]

Here's a live webcam they've got going over there, pretty neat to watch'm work.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

Hahahahaha!! Brilliant.

Swine! :biggrin:

[Kingsley]

^^^ :lolflag:

[Jordanwb]

Hahahahaha!! Brilliant.

Swine! :biggrin:

Yeah I know eh? I was thinking first: Why is there a webcam of a parking lot? Then black hole.

[MaindotC]

Alright so does anyone know the official date & time that the main system will be powered up and colliding so I can spend the night with my gf and say my goodbyes? I know an article references it as "late October".

[mgmiller]

What I've read suggests at least 2 months from late September to fix the thing, so Late November is my guess.

Forget black holes, there is a much more important question the LHC can answer...

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=how-long-would-it-take-the-lhc-to-d-2008-09-10

[Jordanwb]

^^ epic lol. Cooking pizza. I could see it now: "We cook pizza with science with a dash of protons"