What's a nice way to tell beginning user's to first perform a forum search?

[kevdog]

If any of you users are involved in helping others, many of you may realize many new users scream help first before looking for an answer on their own. What's a nice way to tell users to #1) Stop complain, #2) Do a system search, #3) And better explain their problem beyond "It doesn't work".

Thanks, sometimes I lose my patience.

[scorp123]

Thanks, sometimes I lose my patience. Welcome to the club :)

[Mazza558]

How about:


Hello,

It has recently come to our attention that a newly-registered user - namely you - has, once again, breached what is known as "good practice" here on the Ubuntu Forums, a popular forum dedicated to providing a community for all users of the popular GNU/Linux Distribution. The breach in question was a lack a desire to use the forum's built-in search function, and instead creating a new post, despite the fact that the answer could quickly and easily be located by using the aforementioned function. This lack of desire can only be due to either ignorance or idiocy, and a second breach will result in the termination of your account.

Now if that doesn't scare them off, what will? :)

Or, alternatively, after banning the user:


WHAT A NOOB

[wormser]

Give them the resolution and educate them about searching, giving thanks and marking resolved. Make sure to it in a nice tone.

[scottro]

A nice way? (I'm taking this as a serious question and not a way to vent frustration.)

"Darn, I just saw this question come up a few days ago--I'm sorry, I don't have time to get the thread for you though. Put the terms <insert terms here> in the search box, and I think you'll have some luck.

By the way (and don't feel badly, we've all been guilty of not doing this) it's always a good idea to do a search for your problem before asking. You'd be surprised how often someone had your exact problem.

I should add that when a search leads to you solving your problem, it's always nice to thank the person. You do that by clicking on the little gold star next to the quote thingie in the lower right.

Anyway, sorry I can't be of more specific help, but I am really sure I saw that question and saw it solved within the last day or two. "

How's that?

EDIT. I spend more time on Fedora Forums (my job is mostly with CentOS and RH) and actually put up a page that was an effort to do something like this. It saved me from typing the same thing over and over--now I just type the link to my page. It was specifically for wireless cards, but as a possible model
http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/rhhw.html

(As in RedHat, the way I preface all my RedHat based system pages and hw as in hardware.)
It's an effort to be nice. I can say there's a forum sticky and all that, but then I have to memorize that URL. This is one that I know as it's my site, and I can type in an exact link without having to search for anything.)

[Whiffle]

I usually try to give some information about what it is they're looking for, as often times they don't know what to search for in the first place. For example,

"You're going to need to do <this>, <this and <this>, theres been a couple of good threads on this earlier so a good place to start would be the search function. If you have any questions though, feel free to post them up"

[drascus]

"#1) Stop complain," This would hopefully be solved when you explain their problem. n00bs complain because they are panicking that their issue means there is no fix and their system is never going to work. Remember they are coming from the proprietary software world where when things go wrong no one knows why except for the developers who own you. I know that's an annoying explanation but I just try to remember what it was like for me when I first switched over.
" #2) Do a system search," First there should be a forum guidelines sticky in the absolute beginner talk forum that explains if you have a problem search the forum first. Then you could point them to the guidelines and ask them to please read it. Also find the information they are looking for and post the links on the question rather then writing a lengthy response and tell them to search the forums next time. Explain if they had done it that way they would have gotten their answer faster (It sounds more like advice then rather then a lecture).
"#3) And better explain their problem beyond "It doesn't work"."
Well you need to find out why it doesn't work first depending on who you are and the amount of time you have that can be difficult especially without physical access to the machine. But for some things if its hardware that's unsupported tell them to write to the developers and complain. Or perhaps the developers would help them get it working (doubt it). offer them suggestions on hardware point them to the various lists of hardware that works with linux. perhapse they could just switch out a card or two and the thing would work fine. After all they could always sell the old ones on Ebay and not loose to much money.

[chucky chuckaluck]

one thing to realize is that beginners, who are real end users, often don't even know what to search for, or what question to ask. one of the problems i see with the adoption of open source software is the apparent lack of willingness to write page one of the guidebook (you know, the one that starts with "turn power on"). peddlars of proprietary apps are often smart enough to treat their customers like complete idiots and provide even what seems like the most obvious of instructions. this is usually the world the terrified beginner is coming from. i look back at the questions i used to ask and i think "wow! what a dumbass!" but, at the time, i was truly puzzled by whatever it was.

[23meg]

Giving them a screenshot with an big red arrow pointing to the "Search this Forum" function. Most people you're talking about don't ever notice it.

[kevdog]

23meg

I like that approach but that could be construed to be rude and warrant an infraction. I've received many infractions for "mouthing off". The last one I received was for mentioning "Im going to slap someone if you don't use the search function". Ok, that may have been over the line, but I just get like that sometimes

This issues been bugging me for a while. I even tried to make the situation better by posting a beginner's reference guide for networking back in Dec 2007 - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=596797, however that post went no where and as many things here in the forums, was eventually buried.

[Jay Jay]

23meg

I like that approach but that could be construed to be rude and warrant an infraction. I've received many infractions for "mouthing off". The last one I received was for mentioning "Im going to slap someone if you don't use the search function". Ok, that may have been over the line, but I just get like that sometimes

This issues been bugging me for a while. I even tried to make the situation better by posting a beginner's reference guide for networking back in Dec 2007 - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=596797, however that post went no where and as many things here in the forums, was eventually buried.

I understand your frustration and annoyance, especially when you see the amount of new posts endlessly asking the same range of questions that shows they haven't even performed a google/forum search or done any basic research - "why can't I play MP3's/watch films?" or "why is there no sound under 7.10?".

FWIW I did actually check out your guide on Networking, which I found after performing a forum search when I encountered wireless problems and posted my thanks for your efforts. So your work hasn't been in vain :)

[cardinals_fan]

I found this (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) on the Zenwalk Forums. It should be required reading for everyone who joins any tech support forum.

EDIT: It's on the page, but I think this one is really important. Unless you're just learning the language, USE PROPER ENGLISH/WHATEVER OTHER LANGUAGE YOU POST IN! It makes posts much easier to understand.

[23meg]

I like that approach but that could be construed to be rude and warrant an infraction.

Not if you phrase it politely, preferably with a "Please".



This issues been bugging me for a while. I even tried to make the situation better by posting a beginner's reference guide for networking back in Dec 2007 - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=596797, however that post went no where and as many things here in the forums, was eventually buried.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=142716 is also helpful.

[billgoldberg]

I like to help out in the absolute beginners forums, and allot of people ask allot of the same questions over and over.

So I made some blog posts about it and link them there.

the one I get to link the most is this one:

http://linuxowns.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/media-and-ubuntu/

I post this link a few times every hour I am at the AB forum.

[cprofitt]

If any of you users are involved in helping others, many of you may realize many new users scream help first before looking for an answer on their own. What's a nice way to tell users to #1) Stop complain, #2) Do a system search, #3) And better explain their problem beyond "It doesn't work".

I read your question and wanted to point you to the following thread/post which has a solution in it. I am sure you searched for it and likely just didn't use the same keywords that I did to find it. Searching can be difficult when you are just learning a new OS because you will not know the lingo. To help you I have included the keywords I used; they are [fill in the words]


Thanks, sometimes I lose my patience.

I did a google search that produced some great results for your issue. One of the results I found was here (http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html). The keywords I used were; Anger Management.

I hope this helps you out. :)

[ugm6hr]

The advice here might help you get more helpful suggestions on the solution to your problem:
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/

[loell]

I read your question and wanted to point you to the following thread/post which has a solution in it. I am sure you searched for it and likely just didn't use the same keywords that I did to find it. Searching can be difficult when you are just learning a new OS because you will not know the lingo. To help you I have included the keywords I used; they are [fill in the words]



I did a google search that produced some great results for your issue. One of the results I found was here (http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html). The keywords I used were; Anger Management.

I hope this helps you out. :)

yup, something like that :KS , and I would also add some rough explanations on why and how of the given problem if I know something about it. :)

[LaRoza]

"Search first, ask questions later"

[teaker1s]

A good spirited thread, one to be commended.
I think that the popularity of ubuntu will undoubtedly bring interested people.
Lets face it if everybody just browsed posts and answered what they could while directing to guides or wiki or howto's - :guitar:solves a lot of questions

[dizee]

Using search is important especially since it seems someone else on ubuntuforums has already had and solved the problem in a vast majority of cases. However we must be careful not to ruin the great newb-friendly atmosphere in these forums. A lot of them might not know how to search effectively or mightn't know what they're looking for. That's if they even know how to search in the first place ;)

Probably the best way is to search the problem yourself, offer advice with one of the most useful links, and say, "If that doesn't work for you try searching for <terms you searched for>". That gives them help as well as some know-how of the search function so they can help themselves in future.

[kevdog]

Yes I know we are walking a fine line here but I'm tired of the people that have said I looked everywhere and haven't found an answer, when on many times on the same page where their thread is answered their is a similar post. Its really irritating. Reminds me of a child trying to fool your parent. Most of this "I looked everywhere and couldn't find an answer" is just plain nonsense and is just one example of bad behavior that shouldn't be rewarded (although I'm am quite frequently sucked into that trap too!).

[uDanimal]

What? Is there a problem with...

"RTFM NOOB!!!!!!"

Not that anyone here has ever posted that before, lol.

[hhhhhx]

What? Is there a problem with...

"RTFM NOOB!!!!!!"

Not that anyone here has ever posted that before, lol.
or JFGI

[FrancesL]

Hi, I am a newbie/noob whichever applies. I bought my laptop with Ubuntu installed & that was the reason I bought it in the first place, this only in Jan '08. I was THRILLED to find this forum and to get speedy and helpful advice!
That said, my first post was in panic! I had done a Search of the Forum and although I found reference to my problem, I could not understand the jargon so it was no help! So I posted! I got a response and a resolution within minutes.
I also had no idea at that time how to 'Thank' or post 'Solved'. Now I do, so I went back to my posts and Thanked..and added Solved.
So I am learning. I will keep learning and that is helped by the folk such as yourself, for offering your experience and expertise to those of us with lesser skills.
I am a 61 yr old and loving the Linux world & hope one day to have the know how, the patience and the skill to assist others who join in the Linux experience.

So please, keep helping, be nice, be patient, we newbies/noobs are truely grateful, albeit dumb! Thanks.

[happysmileman]

Generally give them any ideas you can think of, and add "I'm sure there was a thread about this recently, you could try searching for it if that doesn't work."

[aysiu]

What? Is there a problem with...

"RTFM NOOB!!!!!!"

Not that anyone here has ever posted that before, lol.
Yes, there's a problem, and if you had read the Code of Conduct for the forums, you would have known that.

[loell]

Yes I know we are walking a fine line here but I'm tired of the people that have said I looked everywhere and haven't found an answer, when on many times on the same page where their thread is answered their is a similar post. Its really irritating. Reminds me of a child trying to fool your parent. Most of this "I looked everywhere and couldn't find an answer" is just plain nonsense and is just one example of bad behavior that shouldn't be rewarded (although I'm am quite frequently sucked into that trap too!).

Yes there always that kind of users so talkative, so irritating, so impatient, ungrateful the least. Just let other users who's not yet irritated by them answer their questions. ;)

[ugm6hr]

That said, my first post was in panic! I had done a Search of the Forum and although I found reference to my problem, I could not understand the jargon so it was no help! So I posted! I got a response and a resolution within minutes.

This is exactly what the Absolute Beginners Talk section is for, so don't feel like we are complaining about users like yourself. In fact, we are saying that it would feel like people have a degree of respect for our time if they did exactly what you did.

It is easy to help people who have already done some research and found an answer they don't understand. If you link us to the answer, we can help untangle the jargon for you, and we all learn together.

The difficulty is with people who value their own time more than ours, and simply post help threads at the first sign of trouble without expending any effort to solve it from existing information, and then post responses illustrating their ongoing frustration because no one is helping them.

Anyway, I'm glad someone helped you out - I certainly would have :)

[erginemr]

Suggesting RTFM, while tempting at times, is strictly forbidden in Ubuntu forums. So, that is out of question.

Having followed postings on kevdog's network howto's for quite some time, I can understand his frustration against waves after waves of similar questions. One cannot help start thinking that experienced members are being abused by newcomers this way.

Actually, whoever designed the mechanism of Ubuntu forums was a genius: When you try to start a thread, you are presented with a list of similar posts first, where there may already be a solution to your problem. But this doesn't work for generic titles of newbies such as "Help me!", "Pleeeease help!", etc. of course. I also encounter many such posts everyday with questions asked already a gazillion times and ignore them first; but as the user succumbs into frustration over time, I can't help answering or at least pointing to the right direction.

And what's more, most of the time, the poster has signed in only to ask his/her question and leaves forever with a bean count of 2 - 3. Maybe presenting him/her with this article:
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/

or an even shortened and more colored form of it to ease reading (as people nowadays don't like to read much) during the sign-up process might help our case.

(P.S. Sorry if there is already such a notice during the sign-up, it has been a year and I don't want to create a new account in vain just to check.)

[chewearn]

Yesterday, I was watching the movie "Run Fatboy Run"; there was a joke about marathon runners "hitting the wall".

Well, I think ubuntuforums support volunteers should beware of "hitting the wall" in tech support as well. It's when you find yourself spending too much time in this forum, then suddenly a newbie clueless post, or "I WANT MY TOYS NOW!!" attitude :) gets under your skin.

The thing to do is to step back, chill out, and log off for the day.

It's hard, I failed a few times in the past. Luckily, no mod or admin was looking. :mrgreen:

[duck for cover]

[herbster]

There is no "nice way." Some will dig it and search their butts off, others will want an answer that nanosecond and flame on. Not knowing what to search for is an issue many times, but come on, most times it's a matter of them being lazy asses.

And then one of us will be direct, we get an infraction, and so the dance continues...

[aysiu]

The nice way to tell people is to say, "Here's the answer, which I found through this Google search." By giving them the answer, you're showing that you're trying to be helpful and not mean. You are also showing them that you got the answer not because you're more knowledgeable, but because you did an appropriate search.

If they see the search and realize they could have done it themselves, they will be embarrassed by themselves (instead of in front of others). If they see the search and had no idea that search would yield such results, they've just learned the power of a good search.

If you have no interest in helping the user, don't help. If you feel your time is being wasted, don't click on the thread.

Frankly, it doesn't really bother me that much when new users don't search. It's difficult being a new user. I haven't been one for almost three years, but I remember well what it was like. Every small problem seemed overwhelming, and the last thing you wanted was to be scolded by more experienced users--you just wanted your problems solved. Once you're more knowledgeable, it can be easy to sit on your high horse and say, "Why don't you just search for it? It's easy," but you're forgetting what it's like to be a new user. One of the problems, for example, that new users face is the inability to discern good information from bad information.

One of the first dual-boot tutorials I came across as a newcomer to Linux had some complicated instructions about editing the hidden boot.ini file and entering some cryptic terminal command to copy to a floppy disk. I found that tutorial by myself, and it was intimidating. If I had simply asked someone on the forums how to dual-boot, I would have been told that the tutorial I found through the search was bunk and that if I went with Mepis' defaults (I started with Mepis and later moved to Ubuntu), Grub would install to the Master Boot Record, overriding Windows' boot loader and automatically adding Windows to the dual-boot menu.

In other words, new users can't always evaluate properly the quality of the search results they find.

What's far more annoying to me than new users not searching are these two phenomena:

1. Old users complaining about new users wasting their time, but then still bothering to answer (if it's a waste of your time, don't answer)

2. Old users not helping new users when the new users ask for help properly but then offering tons of help once the new users threatens to leave for Windows or just bashes Linux or Ubuntu. For more details, read A Plea to the Community: Don't Reward Bad Behavior (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634322)

[Roc327]

I'm not defending or saying it is right cause I am a fan of the search button. But I think that SOME people come to the forums last /shrug and have searched other places and don't forget they are probably frustrated.

So I would say give them the link....or like someone said tell them about the search nicely and tell them an idea or 2 to type in the search.

[cardinals_fan]

I still consider myself a newbie, as I've only used Linux for a little over a year. And my philosophy has always been to: "Help them [the community] help you". You will get a faster and more useful solution to your problem if you use proper English or [insert other language here], list what you have tried to fix the problem, provide a detailed description of your problem, and use a relavent title. And try to do a little homework. People who don't at least try to solve the problem on their own shouldn't expect others to help them.

[kevdog]

aysiu

I think you have described the problems faced here wonderfully, but revisit an idea of rating the utility of different threads. As a beginner, but also as a user with experience venturing into areas they are unfamiliar with (such as me with different types of servers such as squid), there is no way to rate the information or know if what you are reading is reliable or the best way to accomplish what you are looking to do. Oftentimes this requires me to re-read many tutorials, consult other forums, and ask intelligent questions based on what I have found.

My only complaint about some of the tutorials in the forums is that they are not equal in terms of completeness of thoroughness -- and -- there is no independent rating system to differentiate the good tutorials from the bad. I don't envy the job of the moderators of the tutorials and tips forums when they are faced with an overwhelming number of potential posts, but also posts that may not be in their area of expertise.

Again I know at one time the rose system was used for rating threads, but this was abandoned for many reasons. However without an indication of how useful each tutorial is -- how is the new person able to distinguish between fair, good, and really good information? So hence without a rating system the cycle continues...

[aysiu]

Again I know at one time the rose system was used for rating threads, but this was abandoned for many reasons. However without an indication of how useful each tutorial is -- how is the new person able to distinguish between fair, good, and really good information? So hence without a rating system the cycle continues... Maybe you'd be interested in something az created called Ubuntu Knowledge:
http://ubuntuknowledge.org/

You can read more about it here:
Unified documentation site - I need your input (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=579726)

[kevdog]

You can read more about it here:
Unified documentation site - I need your input

I remember that thread when it was discussed. I didn't know Az followed through --- I can see a lot of work has been put through on his part -- quite amazing really!

I'm calmer now -- just please everyone do a little reading before you make a post -- present what is wrong and what you have tried to make it look or pretend that you have looked. No more acting like a child -- UbuntuForums -- yes it is for grownups!!!

[loell]

No more acting like a child -- UbuntuForums -- yes it is for grownups!!!

now we don't want a child to hesitate posting in ubunuforums asking for help, do we? ;)
no matter how childish the question is or how slow an individual can cope up with instructions and concepts as long as he is interested in learning Ubuntu, then this forum will always be for them. :)

[Atomic Dog]

It is rare that i say search the forum flat out, but occasionally I will mention searching for certain keywords.

I seriously found 98% of my questions answered by searching and not asking. I do notice the same threads popping up almost hour after hour like "32 bit or 64 bit" and "what laptop works well with ubuntu"

*sign* What are you gonna do, ya know. Just answer and let them know they have a safety net here for them.

[Jeff Rage]

(I didn't look to see if this was already posted)

Posting and You (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting)

[ubuntu-freak]

It's gonna happen no matter what, this is a popualar and well publicised distro. Some don't think or know to use Google when searching these forums (site:ubuntuforums.org), it beats the in-forum search.

There are lots of new users who don't even post on these forums though, I'm sure of it. I didn't register until I'd run Ubuntu/Debian for a few months, I'd just search Google when I had a problem. I'm sure many others are the same.

Nathan