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Twitch6000
March 17th, 2008, 12:19 AM
First let me say sorry if this is wrong sub forum :).
Now to my topic,Open Source Software has became a big thing,very help aswell heck I know I use alot of it.Although something crossed my mind people like Microsoft hate and basically want to destroy open source we all know why but,my question is based on that.If they want to destroy or get rid of Open source software any way possible for no good reasoning that shows you they are dare I say it,Scared.Yes I f'ing said it Microsoft is scared of linux and open source.They know they cannot control it and go hey you can't do that RAWR.They also have seen with WINE they will soon lose the gaming people.If that happens do you think Microsoft might take drastic measures?

So here are my mine questions-
1.How scared do you think Microsoft is of open source?

2.IF and when wine and its compenets hits the big 1.0 do you think Microsoft will lose a lot more people and go crazy?

3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?

4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

5.Finally just for laughs what do you think is better gnome or kde.

I ask this like I said before cause I do think Microsoft has become scared.

Brunellus
March 17th, 2008, 12:53 AM
first note: I am going to be watching this thread carefully. Let's not have this degenerate into a flamefest.

secondly: MSFT is concerned about Free Software mainly in the server space, where they've been getting battered. They are less concerned for desktops in most of the world; most industries are now hopelessly vendor-dependent on them.

An example: as an (almost) lawyer, I'm going to have to live with the fact that courts, agencies, clients, firms--everybody-- expects to deal with work produced in MSFT software.

As far as user-friendliness: Linux is user-friendly, actually. Most users are not Linux friendly, because they were trained on another OS. Actually switching OSes is a major step, and one that most people never get around to.

If MSFT loses its dominance in the marketplace, it will be because some other player has made desktop computers irrelevant. Think Google, or Sun Microsystems.

diablo75
March 17th, 2008, 12:57 AM
I can't reply to the whole post, but I will say that Linux is defiantly user friendly, compared to Windows. My girlfriend can't even drive a stick shift, and knows absolutely nothing about computers. But she picked up Ubuntu pretty fast, because it's a rather simple interface. Something I really like is the fact that none of the menus go any deeper than one sub-menu. Everything is pretty up-front, in other words.

Daveski
March 17th, 2008, 01:26 AM
3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?


I'd like a definition of 100% user friendly...

Twitch6000
March 17th, 2008, 03:46 AM
I'd like a definition of 100% user friendly...

Well my thoughts of that would be any random person no matter if they have used another os before or not,can use it without a question.
Or at least somewhere near that.

hhhhhx
March 17th, 2008, 03:51 AM
I'd like a definition of 100% user friendly...
my definition of user friendly - a plug goes into your brain, and if you think it something, it happens, and no crashes :lolflag:

k2t0f12d
March 17th, 2008, 06:00 AM
1.How scared do you think Microsoft is of open source?

Not nearly as scared as they should be. User inertia and vendor lock-in can only last so long. History shows us that the largest enterprises in the world can never sustain themselves, starting with the Tower of Babel all the way to the Roman Empire. Microsoft has entrenched itself cunningly behind copyright, patent, and contract law. However, their development system is fundamentally flawed, and no matter how cleverly they continue to opt out of the free market and shield themselves in bureaucracy, they must eventually change their paradigm to match the sophistication of the industry or face extinction.

2.IF and when wine and its compenets hits the big 1.0 do you think Microsoft will lose a lot more people and go crazy?

No. Wine 1.0 will not be a complete replacement for Windows. The success of free software is hinged on its own values and development models. not the ability to duplicate proprietary operating system's APIs, although doing so is an added bonus.

3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?

Keep writing code and wait. If a UNIX system changed its philosophy to focus on user interface instead of software mechanism, it would cease being a UNIX. The durability of UNIX is in its ability to remain relevant and flexible in deference to the current fashion trends in IT.

4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

Whichever does the thing that people want to do in a desktop environment. UNIX can do that, but usually does everything else, too. The history of UNIX operating systems shows many instances where it has nearly died off entirely, mostly due to incredibly poor decisions by the important players in computing in that era. There is no reason to believe that any UNIX-like system will take the lead. However, the fashion seems to be going toward Mac OS, e.g. absolutely every computer appearing in the show House, M.D. during season four is a Mac.

5.Finally just for laughs what do you think is better gnome or kde.

As long as the widgets and libraries for either one work in both managers, they are equally good.

I ask this like I said before cause I do think Microsoft has become scared.

They are definitely aware of what free software represents, otherwise they would not have gone to the effort they have made to make legal and social mechanisms to frighten developers of free software. Like all very large organizations, Microsoft is not altogether representative of one unifying vision. I think that there are differences in point of view between important people in that company, which could very well prevent their total dissolution when the the shift in computing paradigm yanks the carpet out from underneath their feet, but only time will tell.

Twitch6000
March 17th, 2008, 06:30 PM
1.How scared do you think Microsoft is of open source?

Not nearly as scared as they should be. User inertia and vendor lock-in can only last so long. History shows us that the largest enterprises in the world can never sustain themselves, starting with the Tower of Babel all the way to the Roman Empire. Microsoft has entrenched itself cunningly behind copyright, patent, and contract law. However, their development system is fundamentally flawed, and no matter how cleverly they continue to opt out of the free market and shield themselves in bureaucracy, they must eventually change their paradigm to match the sophistication of the industry or face extinction.

2.IF and when wine and its compenets hits the big 1.0 do you think Microsoft will lose a lot more people and go crazy?

No. Wine 1.0 will not be a complete replacement for Windows. The success of free software is hinged on its own values and development models. not the ability to duplicate proprietary operating system's APIs, although doing so is an added bonus.

3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?

Keep writing code and wait. If a UNIX system changed its philosophy to focus on user interface instead of software mechanism, it would cease being a UNIX. The durability of UNIX is in its ability to remain relevant and flexible in deference to the current fashion trends in IT.

4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

Whichever does the thing that people want to do in a desktop environment. UNIX can do that, but usually does everything else, too. The history of UNIX operating systems shows many instances where it has nearly died off entirely, mostly due to incredibly poor decisions by the important players in computing in that era. There is no reason to believe that any UNIX-like system will take the lead. However, the fashion seems to be going toward Mac OS, e.g. absolutely every computer appearing in the show House, M.D. during season four is a Mac.

5.Finally just for laughs what do you think is better gnome or kde.

As long as the widgets and libraries for either one work in both managers, they are equally good.

I ask this like I said before cause I do think Microsoft has become scared.

They are definitely aware of what free software represents, otherwise they would not have gone to the effort they have made to make legal and social mechanisms to frighten developers of free software. Like all very large organizations, Microsoft is not altogether representative of one unifying vision. I think that there are differences in point of view between important people in that company, which could very well prevent their total dissolution when the the shift in computing paradigm yanks the carpet out from underneath their feet, but only time will tell.

Thank you for that greatly thought out post k2t0f12d.

madjr
March 17th, 2008, 07:32 PM
1.How scared do you think Microsoft is of open source?

same answer as k2t0f12d

However, they are shifting slowly away from the OS market and into the entertainment, web and even hardware market.

They know they did their job, now itś time to start moving on. Their bubble is about to burst.

It's too costly for them to keep up with the huge amount of open source contributors, fast dev and innovation. However, they will still offer their software for very long time or make it available in linux just like in mac (msft office and other stuff in a few years) :guitar:


2.IF and when wine and its compenets hits the big 1.0 do you think Microsoft will lose a lot more people and go crazy?

it will be release on june, but still has a long way to go. Probably by v2.0 it should have 95% compatibility. Right now is about 70% or so.

"Vote for your favorite Wine Bug, to be fixed with Wine v1.0 by june 2008 !"
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724781

3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?

This is mostly a hardware compatibility issues.

see proposed hardware store:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=718573

here is a list of stuff ubuntu needs to improve on:

http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/18/0,1425,sz=1&i=181126,00.gif

what areas Ubuntu lags behind (lowest score):

-Upgrade/Installation (upgrade errors and live-cd bugs)
-Interface (new theme needed?)
-Drivers/Hardware (duh..)
-Networking (better wifi and stuff)

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724238

we did get great score in Price, pre-installed soft and third-party soft (better than mac os), which is awesome.

4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

i have to disagree with k2t0f12d

mac OS is too closed down and tied to hardware. Not that many can afford or likes a mac.

Am sure Linux will be the big winner here (when the above problems are solved and hardware issues become minimum)

Pre-installed ubuntu could become the norm in a few years.

linux embeded in motherboards and devices, it will be everywhere.

5.Finally just for laughs what do you think is better gnome or kde.

i like them both specially kde4, but am a gnome person right now for it's simplicity.

anyway, if i need to use windows for any reason am sure i'll install kde4 there. Will be interesting to see windows transformed into linux :lolflag:

KDE4 will be the best way to get people "used" to a linux interface. KDE4 for win might even be preinstalled by default on some PCs.

Will also help you test run linux, without leaving windows.

imagine a linux pc with KDE4 next to a windows pc with KDE4 also + OSS. Will people notice the difference? ... probably just the anti-virus icon in tray LOL :lolflag:

Twitch6000
March 18th, 2008, 04:02 AM
1.How scared do you think Microsoft is of open source?

same answer as k2t0f12d

However, they are shifting slowly away from the OS market and into the entertainment, web and even hardware market.

They know they did their job, now itś time to start moving on. Their bubble is about to burst.

It's too costly for them to keep up with the huge amount of open source contributors, fast dev and innovation. However, they will still offer their software for very long time or make it available in linux just like in mac (msft office and other stuff in a few years) :guitar:


2.IF and when wine and its compenets hits the big 1.0 do you think Microsoft will lose a lot more people and go crazy?

it will be release on june, but still has a long way to go. Probably by v2.0 it should have 95% compatibility. Right now is about 70% or so.

"Vote for your favorite Wine Bug, to be fixed with Wine v1.0 by june 2008 !"
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724781

3.Linux oses still are not all user friendly what can be done to make it 99%-100% user friendly?

This is mostly a hardware compatibility issues.

see proposed hardware store:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=718573

here is a list of stuff ubuntu needs to improve on:

http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/18/0,1425,sz=1&i=181126,00.gif

what areas Ubuntu lags behind (lowest score):

-Upgrade/Installation (upgrade errors and live-cd bugs)
-Interface (new theme needed?)
-Drivers/Hardware (duh..)
-Networking (better wifi and stuff)

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724238

we did get great score in Price, pre-installed soft and third-party soft (better than mac os), which is awesome.

4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

i have to disagree with k2t0f12d

mac OS is too closed down and tied to hardware. Not that many can afford or likes a mac.

Am sure Linux will be the big winner here (when the above problems are solved and hardware issues become minimum)

Pre-installed ubuntu could become the norm in a few years.

linux embeded in motherboards and devices, it will be everywhere.

5.Finally just for laughs what do you think is better gnome or kde.

i like them both specially kde4, but am a gnome person right now for it's simplicity.


anyway, if i need to use windows for any reason am sure i'll install kde4 there. Will be interesting to see windows transformed into linux :lolflag:

KDE4 will be the best way to get people "used" to a linux interface. KDE4 for win might even be preinstalled by default on some PCs.

Will also help you test run linux, without leaving windows.

imagine a linux pc with KDE4 next to a windows pc with KDE4 also + OSS. Will people notice the difference? ... probably just the anti-virus icon in tray LOL :lolflag:

Thank you for your nice post it also makes me see some brightness in linux :),

original_jamingrit
March 18th, 2008, 06:56 AM
I wasn't going to reply here, but meh.

1. Not as a whole, but certainly some members of Microsoft are opposed to the growing popularity of FLOSS. Some initiatives in Microsoft seem to try to mimic the FLOSS phenomenon (without being true FLOSS), while other initiatives from msft seem to work on an engage-embrace-extinguish algorithm. I believe that yet others honestly do want to work with the FLOSS community rather than against it. But ultimately msft is a corporation, and they will either work with FLOSS or against it depending on whether or not it is in their interests. We can't know for sure.

2. If wine was really that influential, I could see microsoft trying capitalize on it and try to make their own proprietary version of wine with even more bells and whistles, to try to at least cash in on what would otherwise be a big loss.

3. Usability depends on how much of a patient learner you are, as well as how similar the interface is to what you're familiar with.

4. I'm a linux fan boy through and through :) But personally I can see Haiku (http://www.haiku-os.org/about/faq) coming out on top, once it begins to gain momentum.

5. I hope they will eventually merge like it's been said they will, and I like both fine, but I'm more familiar with gnome. They're both pretty much the same. Fluxbox rules them both, however.

Sef
March 18th, 2008, 07:14 AM
secondly: MSFT is concerned about Free Software mainly in the server space, where they've been getting battered. They are less concerned for desktops in most of the world; most industries are now hopelessly vendor-dependent on them.


In less developed countries, Windows often does not dominate, or if it does much of the Window installs are cracked. In those countries GNU/Linux has a chance of being the dominate os.


I hope they will eventually merge like it's been said they will, and I like both fine, but I'm more familiar with gnome. They're both pretty much the same.

I highly doubt that they will merge. Besides the differences in the underlying code (GTK for Gnome and QT for KDE), there is a difference in how they design the software: Gnome is time based, so every six months the newest update comes out, while KDE is more rolling - it comes out when the developers decide it is ready.

Brunellus
March 18th, 2008, 02:47 PM
there is functionally no difference between a cracked windows install and a legitimate Ubuntu install for a consumer that will suffer no prosecution (civil or criminal) for cracking Windows. What closes the deal is the fact that "everybody else" runs MSFT anyway.

madjr
March 18th, 2008, 06:04 PM
2. If wine was really that influential, I could see microsoft trying capitalize on it and try to make their own proprietary version of wine with even more bells and whistles, to try to at least cash in on what would otherwise be a big loss.


they are trying to do just this, but with visualization, but mostly on the server market, because linux dominates there.

so it's a matter of linux becoming much more popular on the desktop side.



4. I'm a linux fan boy through and through :) But personally I can see Haiku (http://www.haiku-os.org/about/faq) coming out on top, once it begins to gain momentum.


haiku? hmmm...

i don't think that will happen, it hasn't for BSD (which has been around for very long), it won't for haiku.

Haiku needs the entire community to shift to it, support and dev it. The OSS community doesn't have enough man power for this.


3 big supported OSs trying to dominate is more than enough, i don't think the desktop market has anymore space left.

unless haiku can get all the OSS soft ported to it (which linux has) and support from all the big hardware vendors (which linux is seeing some advances), then no, haiku will never be a significant player. :(

Twitch6000
March 18th, 2008, 06:27 PM
I just got through reading the faqs of ReactOS and I am surprised.
I am still not sure what they are based on though.I do know however if they go fully OSS they might be the first ones to go into the markets fully OSS.The reason being the software it is suppose to be using is all simple to use and it is suppose to be a computer that is a windows clone(well not clone but,that is best way of saying it).

original_jamingrit
March 18th, 2008, 08:51 PM
haiku? hmmm...

i don't think that will happen, ... i don't think the desktop market has anymore space left.(

It's hard to say for sure for sure how much 'room' would be left in the desktop market if microsoft ever does lose it's monopoly and people become free from lock-in. I don't think the idea of many OS's coexisting to be that far-fetched. And if open source(any OSI license) became the rule instead of the exception, I'd believe it even more so.

For one thing, Haiku is 'cool'. Sometimes just that is enough. For example, Java was cool for a while, and while LiveScript was failing, all it took was a name change to fix it. But also, like BeOS, Haiku was designed from the start to be a desktop-specific creature. It's not intended to be a jack of all trades, and that may give it a small advantage over others.

This is all completely hypothetical, and you're free to call me crazy: I think with enough man-hours and without the microsoft lock-in, Haiku at least has the potential to surpass all other current operating systems in terms of desktop market share.

k2t0f12d
March 19th, 2008, 12:00 AM
4.If and possibly even when Microsoft losses its market share in computers who do you think will become the number 1?

i have to disagree with k2t0f12d

mac OS is too closed down and tied to hardware. Not that many can afford or likes a mac.

Am sure Linux will be the big winner here (when the above problems are solved and hardware issues become minimum)

Pre-installed ubuntu could become the norm in a few years.

linux embeded in motherboards and devices, it will be everywhere.

I said that the current fashion trend seems to be leaning toward Mac, and market share trends have been much more favourable to Mac then Linux, except for this last month in which Microsoft regained some ground, according to this (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9) website. Apple seems to be pursuing product placement exposure very aggressively, at least aggressively enough for me to notice as someone who watches <10 hours of television a week (maybe even a month :P ).

That doesn't mean that the Mac would enjoy a de facto lock on share leaking from Microsoft, just that that is where I see the trends moving right now. Because Mac OS has to differentiate the cost of expensive hardware, even if Apple spread more successfully then free software operating systems, the free desktop would undoubtedly enjoy a lot more elbow room in a freer free market then we have today. I wouldn't discount a runaway rush to free software; however, I expect it's progress to remain incremental.

madjr
March 19th, 2008, 12:37 AM
It's hard to say for sure for sure how much 'room' would be left in the desktop market if microsoft ever does lose it's monopoly and people become free from lock-in. I don't think the idea of many OS's coexisting to be that far-fetched. And if open source(any OSI license) became the rule instead of the exception, I'd believe it even more so.



If that ever happends it will be thanks to whom initated this war: linux and it's "over a decade" old anti-m$ war.





For one thing, Haiku is 'cool'. Sometimes just that is enough. For example, Java was cool for a while, and while LiveScript was failing, all it took was a name change to fix it. But also, like BeOS, Haiku was designed from the start to be a desktop-specific creature. It's not intended to be a jack of all trades, and that may give it a small advantage over others.


windows is also a "jack of all trades", they are everywhere: servers, mobile, desktop, even on your car soon...

Ubuntu is a relative new project aimed specially for the desktop as well. But it has what other linux distros lack: Big publicity and marketing

Being "jack of all trades" is what gives linux it's huge publicity.

other OSS OS's have little to no publicity at all (including BSD and haiku)



This is all completely hypothetical, and you're free to call me crazy: I think with enough man-hours and without the microsoft lock-in, Haiku at least has the potential to surpass all other current operating systems in terms of desktop market share.

They would have to go over Ubuntu and Mac OS first and get pre-installed on a huge number of computers. (like eeepc, dell, etc.)

sometimes people who use ubuntu, may not even know they are using linux... which is a good thing in most part (as linux is just the kernel). That's exactly how popular ubuntu has become.

Unless haiku gets direct support from a relative big corporation as Canonical is, i don't see it going anywhere (but if they do I'll support them, if an FOSS proyect succeeds we all do as well).