Did having Firefox preinstalled matter to you?

[aysiu]

Right now there's a raging debate in the idea pool about whether Firefox or Epiphany should be installed by default in Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4509250#post4509250).

One of the points under contention is the Firefox advocates' assertion that having Firefox installed in Ubuntu by default eases the transition for new users, as there's at least one familiar application.

What was your experience?

[mp3_freak_721]

for me, it did matter. as i am a windows user (i dual boot), it was kind of helpful. i still use firefox though because it is my favorite browser. :)

[billgoldberg]

I never really liked firefox 2, so the first did on a fresh install was removing firefox and installing epiphany.

But I find myself using firefox 3 now all the time.

So to be short:

No.

[forestpixie]

Actually having firefox installed made no difference to be honest - I knoew that I'd be able to install it for myself anyway, Epiphany and the other browsers like Galeon I've had a look at but don't like much.

Likewise I knew I could get opera if I so wished.


as there's at least one familiar application.
and if that's the assertion - it could be false - how many actually have Firefox - apart from the enlightened of course :)

The only thing that kept me away from any linux distro was the hassle I expected to get when I didn't have a router - as soon as I'd sold my soul to AOL for a year for a 'free' router - downloading feisty was nearly the first thing I did.

[aysiu]

and if that's the assertion - it could be false - how many actually have Firefox - apart from the enlightened of course :) Well, the marketshare for Firefox ranges anywhere between 15% and 30%, depending on the country, but only the "enlightened" would be migrating to Ubuntu anyway. I can't imagine too many hardcore Internet Explorer users saying, "Hey, I think I'll switch to Ubuntu today."

Firefox is like a gateway drug to open source highness.

[Sunflower1970]

One of the points under contention is the Firefox advocates' assertion that having Firefox installed in Ubuntu by default eases the transition for new users, as there's at least one familiar application.

What was your experience?

I agree with that. Because I was familar with Firefox it made me confident that I could figure the rest of the OS out, which I did.

[DaV|d]

Can't say it made any difference to me since I had used only IE before.

[jespdj]

As far as I know, Internet Explorer and Firefox are the two most used browsers (certainly here in the Netherlands).

I would much rather have a well-known, mainstream browser such as Firefox than something obscure such as Epiphany (I've never heard of Epiphany before I saw this thread!). One obvious advantage of Firefox is that there are thousands of plugins available for it.

[gashcr]

I don't know... I think Firefox is a very good reason for begginers to stay as it's a very well known app.

If it was me, I would have no problem at all, as long as Synaptic stays just where it is :P

[forestpixie]

I'd be interested to know how many have come and gone because they couldn't get a modem going.


Well, the marketshare for Firefox ranges anywhere between 15% and 30%, depending on the country, but only the "enlightened" would be migrating to Ubuntu anyway which is only for the good.

But I do wonder about the whole 'which browser should be default' idea - why pick on the browser, what about OpenOffice - that's not gnome either is it? Not that I'm saying for one minute not to have oo as a default.

Surely there are other things that could be construed as being more important,
e.g. - the text that goes with the partition resize in the install could be a bit more detailed; after all for some that are trying to install *buntu that's the first time they've looked at partitioning - how many 'which way round is it' posts have you seen?

Or the hundreds of source list problems that occurred after a Gutsy install - I don't know how many you answered - probably more than me - but it was a bit tedious to say the least :)

But all that said - at least something can be done and ideas from users do at least get looked at, which is more than can be said for some other OS's.

Overall I have to say that the changeover from windows to Ubuntu, once I'd got round the early xorg problems, was relatively painfree.

[gsmanners]

It used to be that Epiphany *was* the default, and I HATED it. I always immediately downloaded Firefox and used that instead.

[popch]

The left arrow goes back in history, the right one forward, one vaguely suggesting something circular reloads, the underscored terms are links.

At the most elementary level, most browser are used exactly the same way.

Hence, for most tasks any browser is just as good as the next one, for me.

[aysiu]

I'd be interested to know how many have come and gone because they couldn't get a modem going.

Surely there are other things that could be construed as being more important,
e.g. - the text that goes with the partition resize in the install could be a bit more detailed; after all for some that are trying to install *buntu that's the first time they've looked at partitioning - how many 'which way round is it' posts have you seen?

Or the hundreds of source list problems that occurred after a Gutsy install - I don't know how many you answered - probably more than me - but it was a bit tedious to say the least :)

Overall I have to say that the changeover from windows to Ubuntu, once I'd got round the early xorg problems, was relatively painfree. Well the discussion about "easing migration" with Firefox is surely a psychological ease, not a technical one. Technical migration issues certainly trump psychological ones, but psychological ones should not be discounted.


It used to be that Epiphany *was* the default, and I HATED it. I always immediately downloaded Firefox and used that instead. When was Epiphany the default in Ubuntu? I've used it since Hoary, and Firefox has always been the default. Was Epiphany the default in Warty?

[gsmanners]

I'm probably thinking of Fedora Core 2 or 3. I think that was about the same time as Warty.

[OrangeCrate]

What was your experience?


I adopted both Firefox and OOo early on while I was still on Windows. I'd always had some interest in Linux, but was afraid to try it. Then one day, I said what the hell, and downloaded an Ubuntu Live CD, and the rest is history. The biggest contributing factor to doing that was the fact that I was already using Firefox and OOo.

IMO, both Firefox and OOo are great lead-ins to adopting a Linux destop distribution, and they make the transition to Linux much easier. Keep Firefox as the default.

[Npl]

Firefox is fine as default (I dont care what browser is default), what I dont like about it beeing a depency of ubuntu-desktop.
I want to be able to remove it without trouble tough, something thats currently not possible and therefore annoys me.

[forestpixie]

Well the discussion about "easing migration" with Firefox is surely a psychological ease, not a technical one... but psychological ones should not be discounted..

Indeed not and do actually feel that the default should be left as it is - the same with Oo - I just feel that dealing with partitioning issues is likely to leave a pyschological scar if it goes pear shaped :)

I suspect though that like orangecrate actually having used ff and oo did in fact make it somewhat easier - but I have to say that it didn't actually inform the decision

I guess that I was lucky enough to have a boss who'd drop a cd and manual in my lap and say - "Someone sold me this - how do I use it if you value your job" - you tend to learn to fly by the seat of your pants - and it carried over.

[tad1073]

Right now there's a raging debate in the idea pool about whether Firefox or Epiphany should be installed by default in Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4509250#post4509250).

One of the points under contention is the Firefox advocates' assertion that having Firefox installed in Ubuntu by default eases the transition for new users, as there's at least one familiar application.

What was your experience?

Linux should break the mold and use Opera.

Fx is too slow and bloated, it reloads page when using the back button etc...

The only time I use Fx is when I can't access a page with Opera, which is not very often.

All the extensions listed below are built into Opera. Except for the ubuntu forums menu but I am sure one can be made though.

Application: Firefox 2.0.0.12 (2008020710)
Operating System: Linux (x86-gcc3)

- Adblock Plus 0.7.5.3
- All-in-One Gestures 0.18.0
- All-in-One Sidebar 0.7.3
- Download Statusbar 0.9.6.1
- Extension List Dumper 1.12.0
- Fasterfox 2.0.0
- Fission 0.9.5
- Hide Menubar 1.0.20071223
- Stop-or-Reload Button 0.2.2
- Tab Mix Plus 0.3.6
- ubufox 0.4~beta1
- Ubuntu Forums Menu 0.55
- Unified Back-/Forward Button 0.6

[dca]

It doesn't matter. Pretty soon if Ubuntu wants to remain a single CD install it will have to sacrifice certain applications in order to fit. Removal of web browsers, open office, etc. Hopefully this will allow for a decision to be made on the end-users part similar to the 'add/remove software' utility in the apps menu. It could be separated the same way the apps menu is allowing you to add to each group post-install...

[aysiu]

Linux should break the mold and use Opera.
Some Linux distros do have Opera installed by default. I think there's a version of Puppy Linux or Damn Small Linux that does.

Ubuntu, however, will not, unless Opera decides to go open source.

[tad1073]

Some Linux distros do have Opera installed by default. I think there's a version of Puppy Linux or Damn Small Linux that does.

Ubuntu, however, will not, unless Opera decides to go open source.

I though Opera was open source, but i guess I was wrong.

Free to dowload and redistribute doesn't mean open source huh?

[ElijahLynn]

Right now there's a raging debate in the idea pool about whether Firefox or Epiphany should be installed by default in Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4509250#post4509250).

One of the points under contention is the Firefox advocates' assertion that having Firefox installed in Ubuntu by default eases the transition for new users, as there's at least one familiar application.

What was your experience?


How is that a raging debate? It seems like it pretty much got crushed? Firefox won.

[aysiu]

How is that a raging debate? It seems like it pretty much got crushed? Firefox won.
Even after people lose, they can still rage on. The Epiphany advocates are a quite vocal, even if small, minority.

[ElijahLynn]

You have - "I prefer another browser and liked having Firefox there"

Yet you did not have - "I prefer Firefox and liked having Firefox there"

I voted - "I prefer Firefox"

Installed by default makes one less thing to do.

[qazwsx]

I think it should be Iceweasel. That Mozilla trademark policy is bad thing.

[LaRoza]

There has to be a browser installed, of course. I have no hope for Opera being preinstalled, so I will just use the default to download Opera, no matter what the default is.

[Barrucadu]

I was (and am) slightly irritated by Firefox being there by default. I am an Opera user, and it seems that people completely forget Opera - as if FF and IE are the only browsers out there.

[Spike-X]

I was already a Firefox user, so it helped, but not having it wouldn't necessarily have been a deal-breaker for me.

[LaRoza]

I was (and am) slightly irritated by Firefox being there by default. I am an Opera user, and it seems that people completely forget Opera - as if FF and IE are the only browsers out there.

Opera uses QT, and isn't "free".

As Ubuntu is a GNOME distro, which used GTK, I understand why use a GTK browser. (I would think Epiphany would make sense, but it doesn't matter really)

[SomeGuyDude]

I wish it wasn't default, but on the other hand realize that it's stupid not to have one. If there's any hope of making Ubuntu accessible, it has to come with everything.

Unless, of course, this question is if a DIFFERENT browser should be default. In that case, no way.

[ElijahLynn]

There has to be a browser installed, of course. I have no hope for Opera being preinstalled, so I will just use the default to download Opera, no matter what the default is.

Opera isn't Open Source.

[Ultra Magnus]

Well isn't one of Ubuntu's statements to bring users the very best open source software - I can't find a reference but it sounds like something cannonical would say.

firefox is the best open source browser out there (some would argue the best browser out there - despite memory problems etc) ditching firefox would be like ditching OO.o and installing gnome office by default - I like abiword but still, it would be stupid.

[Darkagentx]

I like both plus knowing that whatever the case was I could easily get want I wanted from packages makes it so it hardly matters.

In the way of having something those transitioning would recognise, I do think that's a good thing. Shows they're not so different after all

[Erik Trybom]

I use Opera, but it was nice having Firefox there to begin with. That way I could download Opera. =)

Of course, to me it wouldn't matter much if the default browser was Epiphany or Konqueror or something - but Firefox is a fine browser and I think it's currently the right choice for Ubuntu. Epiphany lacks some features, Konqueror is for KDE and Opera isn't free software.

What I don't understand though is why there is such a hot debate over the default apps. Installing one and uninstalling the other is done with just two commands. Debating this only makes sense if a) you REALLY think the current choice sucks or b) you want to promote application x by making it default in the world's largest Linux distribution.

[Joeb454]

I couldn't care either way, I'd just download it and install it anyway ;)

[Erunno]

ditching firefox would be like ditching OO.o and installing gnome office by default - I like abiword but still, it would be stupid.

Actually, this is not practible since GNOME office lacks one of the 3 major applications of each office suite, i.e. a presentation program.

[jken146]

Personally I prefer Epiphany over Firefox. This is for three reasons. Firstly, the bookmarks system is better. That's a major factor in my view. Secondly, Epiphany has GTK integration, which every app worth its salt should have. Thirdly, Epiphany performs better: it is lighter and sometimes more stable than Firefox. The difference in startup time is very noticable.

What annoyed me is that Epiphany depends on Firefox, so I can't uninstall FF. I understand that in Hardy Epiphany will be compiled on XULRunner instead of Gecko, so this won't be an issue in the future (it will also make it faster at rendering pages).


It doesn't matter to me at all what software is preinstalled, as I'm apt to do a minimal install anyway with only the things I want.

[Erunno]

you want to promote application x by making it default in the world's largest Linux distribution.

Not that I intend to sidetrack this discussion but there is little evidece that Ubuntu is the *world's* largest distribution, especially when taking eastern countries into account where other distributions like Russian Linux(?) and Red Flag Linux are very prominent.

[SomeGuyDude]

Epiphany also looks like total balls. It's huge and ugly.

[jken146]

Epiphany also looks like total balls. It's huge and ugly.

In what way do you find it ugly? It looks like every other GTK app you've got. What do you mean by huge?

[CaptainCabinet]

It helped for me as I've always used Firefox and it's my favourite browser.
But if it wasn't installed by default I wouldn't be bothered as I'd just install it myself.

[ahaslam]

I don't mind if there's a browser as default, let alone whether it be Firefox or not.

[D-EJ915]

It made it easier for me to go to Opera's site and download it.

[BluntBox]

Really made no difference to me. Being able to install any browser in a matter of seconds makes the default pretty irrelevant.

re: Epiphany being ugly and huge. I'm guessing thats talking about the size of the "Back, Stop, Forward" buttons etc. Which is the one turnoff with Epiphany's default layout for me. But I hide them and its cleaner looking than Firefox.

[tad1073]

I use Opera, but it was nice having Firefox there to begin with. That way I could download Opera. =)

I like your thinking, that was the first thing I did when I installed ubuntu.

[Superkoop]

I prefer Firefox, but on 64bit I still had to DL 32bit FF so I could get my flash and Java working. But no big.

I think Firefox should be default since IMHO Firefox and Opera are the two best browsers, and since Opera is closed, Firefox is the clear winner.

[Linuxratty]

Firefox is like a gateway drug to open source highness.

I agree...After using FF,I saw how great open source could be and from here it was a short step to Linux.
I really like FF and it's extensions and expect it to be installed by default.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Yeh firefox was a attractor for me as I have been a firefox user since the early versions.... I used it since its firebird days

[mcsimon]

firefox was what first got me interested in open source. It pointed me towards linux and once i was there it made me have a comfortable transisiton. I think that's important for a distro such as Ubuntu, as much of their target audience are in the transition phase still.

[cprofitt]

Well, the marketshare for Firefox ranges anywhere between 15% and 30%, depending on the country, but only the "enlightened" would be migrating to Ubuntu anyway. I can't imagine too many hardcore Internet Explorer users saying, "Hey, I think I'll switch to Ubuntu today."

Firefox is like a gateway drug to open source highness.

I still prefer IE for a great many things -- security not being one of them -- and due to compatibility with certain products it is a needed evil.

I switched my daughter's machine almost a year ago... my work machine went about 10 months ago (and I admin a 30 server Windows AD environment from it) and my home box (now that I am done with a large programming project using VS 2005) will be converted when I next get the chance.

[blithen]

To me a browser is a browser. They all take you to the same place. Hell you could've done a Terminal based one. (Would've made my transition from windows a little hard though :P) But like I said a browser is a browser.

[Red Shift]

The bundled Firefox was slow in every way. I removed Firefox immediately and installed Swiftweasel. Yes, I know Swiftweasel uses Firefox.

[Famicommander]

The only thing I ever used Firefox for was downloading Opera.

[souneedalink]

epiphany.....gotta love the bookmarks!

[L8erG8er]

I think having Firefox there by default is a good thing, something familiar to new users. If Firefox was not the default, I would install it anyway. Epiphany is light on features for me.

[souneedalink]

firefox...light on features, heavy on bloat :D
oh alright, heavy on features, real heavy on bloat :D

[vishzilla]

So far, I've used Opera, Epiphany and Firefox. Each time I try a new browser, I finally go back to Firefox! With version 3 on the horizon, I use Firefox more than any other browser

[mikewhatever]

I generally dislike bundled software, especially if one can't remove it as one pleases, but would have installed Firefox had it not been bundled anyway. Having used Epiphany for a bit, but did not like it. If they do choose Epiphany, I'll keep using Firefox.

[reubeni]

epiphany.....gotta love the bookmarks!

I second the above, never used epiphany until I read this thread DL and am now using it no problems I think I will stick with it but keep FF just incase:)

[jespdj]

To me a browser is a browser. They all take you to the same place. Hell you could've done a Terminal based one. (Would've made my transition from windows a little hard though :P) But like I said a browser is a browser.
If you are a web developer, then you know that there are enormous differences in how browsers render webpages. It's a nightmare, because despite the standards of the W3C (http://www.w3.org/), some things work in one browser and not in others, and to make a website work in many different browsers requires many hours of tweaking and testing. I don't want lots of people to use yet another browser for which I need to test and make my websites work.

Firefox is good, because it adheres quite well to the standards (unlike Internet Explorer...). I don't know about Epiphany; I read it's based on the Gecko engine currently, which is the same engine as what's in Firefox.

[k2t0f12d]

I choose other for the simple reason that Mozilla is free software. There are a lot of forks of Firefox, but in the end its foundation is free software. Worrying about what gets bundled in the vanilla installation is a problem reserved for proprietary vendors whose decisions determine how wealth gets spread. Free software is free software, and any distribution can bundle whatever they like, since, unlike the proprietary vendor's browser, it is as easy to change as one's socks.

[macogw]

I liked having FF there by default. Less work to get it set up ;) It was good for my mom too, since she's used to Mozilla.

[aysiu]

Thanks to all who have and will continue to participate in this poll. Even though the largest minority of voters simply didn't mind Firefox being there because they prefer to use Firefox, the idea that its presence as the default browser eases the transition from Windows being a myth is unfounded. It isn't a myth--it's a fact. It isn't a fact for everyone who switches over, but it is a sizeable chunk, as you can see.

[souneedalink]

I would think if you can manage one browser you can manage any browser. I cant imagine people making a decision to use ubuntu based on the browser. I did get a giggle from the idea of that though...

Use ubuntu cause its got da fox

[souneedalink]

transition from windows...isn't that a bit over dramatic. I mean, it isn't like 'blast from the past' or austin powers being warped into the 90s or anything. I mean, maybe a caveman could not transition easily but anyone that has used a computer cannot have transition issues. I think people blow that way out of proportion.

My kids transitioned without even knowing there was anything to transition to.... You click, you use, you close with the X. Not sure what something is, hover the pointer over it and it will tell you.

transition issues - the new overblown excuse why people aren't flocking to linux
:) I love it...

[tashmooclam]

I was glad Firefox was there and also that the icon was right there to click as soon as the system connected (automatically!) to the web. I was running Firefox on the XP and Mac laptops previously anyway.

[souneedalink]

true...there probably are transition issues
People know next to nothing about their windows system and expecting them to figure out anything more that that for linux is likely doomed.

How many can actually drive a chevy once they learn on a ford....too much to ask....too hard...

[aysiu]

transition from windows...isn't that a bit over dramatic. I mean, it isn't like 'blast from the past' or austin powers being warped into the 90s or anything. I mean, maybe a caveman could not transition easily but anyone that has used a computer cannot have transition issues. I think people blow that way out of proportion. You're the one who's blowing things out of proportion. Transition means movement, passage, or change from one position, state, stage, subject, concept, etc., to another. It doesn't have to be a drastic change or movement on a global scale or spanning decades.


My kids transitioned without even knowing there was anything to transition to.... You click, you use, you close with the X. Not sure what something is, hover the pointer over it and it will tell you. Really? So your kids downloaded the ISO, burnt it, set the BIOS to boot from CD, installed, troubleshot hardware compatibility problems--all in their sleep, without knowing it? That's amazing, more than Austin Powers or Blast from the Past.


transition issues - the new overblown excuse why people aren't flocking to linux
:) I love it... Love it all you want, but the fact is that many people moving from Windows to Ubuntu were exposed to open source by using Firefox on Windows and did find Firefox's presence in the default Ubuntu installation to be comforting and to, in fact, ease their transition. It's not to say that if Firefox weren't there, they'd have given up, but it may have been more of a psychological boost than a technical one.

[souneedalink]

Really? So your kids downloaded the ISO, burnt it, set the BIOS to boot from CD, installed, troubleshot hardware compatibility problems--all in their sleep, without knowing it?
of course not...
but I thought this thread was dealing with firefox 'easing' the transition which would imply that it is hard to use something that may be slightly different than what you are use to. I didn't realize that having a firefox icon made it easy to install and burn and all that... WOW that is cool....if true


Love it all you want, but the fact is that many people moving from Windows to Ubuntu were exposed to open source by using Firefox on Windows and did find Firefox's presence in the default Ubuntu installation to be comforting and to, in fact, ease their transition. It's not to say that if Firefox weren't there, they'd have given up, but it may have been more of a psychological boost than a technical one.

Maybe we should ask M$ to use all the M$ icons then. To help 'ease' the transition. Comforting? People should wake the freak up and realize that one burning program is similar to another, one browser is similar to another, etc... Turn your brain on and realize that a button may be different, one may call it reload and the other call it refresh, one may use tabs and the other seperate windows but it is NOT any different than the windshield wiper stick that varies from one car to another and takes about a second to figure out what it does.
:popcorn:

[souneedalink]

I am not insulting users who value familiarity. I am stating that I think users need to turn their brain on and realize that they can operate something that is similar even if it is not the exact same thing. I would think a vehicle that uses different controls would show exactly what I was stating. I am not insulting anyone I am telling them to realize that they already do the same thing in regards to vehicles, copy machines, cell phones, and computers are no different. Sorry if you cannot manage to get the point of my post.

[danbuter]

I strongly prefer Firefox.

[akiratheoni]

transition from windows...isn't that a bit over dramatic. I mean, it isn't like 'blast from the past' or austin powers being warped into the 90s or anything. I mean, maybe a caveman could not transition easily but anyone that has used a computer cannot have transition issues. I think people blow that way out of proportion.

My kids transitioned without even knowing there was anything to transition to.... You click, you use, you close with the X. Not sure what something is, hover the pointer over it and it will tell you.

transition issues - the new overblown excuse why people aren't flocking to linux
:) I love it...

There's a reason why your kids were able to transition from Windows to Ubuntu -- they're kids. They haven't used Windows for the number of years that we have. We get used to a particular user interface, then when it changes, we need to learn to get used to it -- I believe that's a transition? Installing things on Windows is different than doing an apt-get on Linux. So learning to use apt-get instead of double clicking an icon is, well, a transition. I don't see why you're saying that there is no transition issues whatsoever when there obviously is. It just might be we're using different definitions of transition but I'm using the one from the dictionary. What about you?

[rune0077]

My kids transitioned without even knowing there was anything to transition to.... You click, you use, you close with the X. Not sure what something is, hover the pointer over it and it will tell you.


I have said it before and I shall say it again: you cannot use kids as an example on how easy something tech-related it, because kids are the most tech-savvy people there is - they're practically born with a keyboard glued to their hands and a modem up their- (um, you get the point). When talking about computers and saying "Kids could do this", what you're really implying is "This is something so complicated and technical that only a kid could do it".

If you want to test how easy something computer-related is or isn't, test it on your grandma, or some other elderly folks. That'll give you a clue very quickly :)

[Vadi]

I find that some people advocating for Epiphany are selfish and think that is best for them should be the default.

[koenn]

I prefer Firefox and it eased my transition from Windows
Not so much because it was a 'familiar app" - the difference between epiphany and firefox would be small to me : they have a quasi-identical menu bar, a toolbar, bookmarks, and an address field, and that's all I use. They're so similar that one could easily mistake a FF window wit an epiphany window.

But I was happy to find that I could copy my FF profile from Windows to Ubuntu so that made for a smooth migration. Maybe I don't lnow if that would have been possible with epipahny as well, I never checked.

[souneedalink]

I have said it before and I shall say it again: you cannot use kids as an example on how easy something tech-related it, because kids are the most tech-savvy people there is - they're practically born with a keyboard glued to their hands and a modem up their- (um, you get the point). When talking about computers and saying "Kids could do this", what you're really implying is "This is something so complicated and technical that only a kid could do it".

If you want to test how easy something computer-related is or isn't, test it on your grandma, or some other elderly folks. That'll give you a clue very quickly :)
uh my kids are 13 and 7 and have basic knowledge of how to operate a computer, they are not techno whiz kids or anything. At most they get one hour of game/funtime a day and they can choose the computer or gamecube and it is usually the gamecube. They are also allowed to use the computer for homework and I think my son may have used it twice for that.

I also have my mother using linux. She clicks on the browser (whatever that may be) and she uses the back forward buttons and the address bar and the X in the corner to close it.

She also managed to go from driving a chevy cavalier to a ford taurus without crashing and burning. :D

If you know the basics of computers then you shoud have no problem using either IMO. If you don't then using any OS is scary.

But epiphany rocks either way!

[souneedalink]

Do you'll have problems when you switch cellphones? microwaves? alarm clocks? cars? Do you feel uncomfortable? Do you need to be eased into the transition? Isn't that part of what is cool about something new, it is similar but different. It doesnt have to be exactly the same to be familiar.

I guess we should make gnome and kde look exactly alike so we can ease people thru the hard transition.

I think people would find epiphany to be....well...a epiphany....especially the bookmarks. Awesome!

[rune0077]

uh my kids are 13 and 7 and have basic knowledge of how to operate a computer, they are not techno whiz kids or anything. At most they get one hour of game/funtime a day and they can choose the computer or gamecube and it is usually the gamecube. They are also allowed to use the computer for homework and I think my son may have used it twice for that.

I also have my mother using linux. She clicks on the browser (whatever that may be) and she uses the back forward buttons and the address bar and the X in the corner to close it.

She also managed to go from driving a chevy cavalier to a ford taurus without crashing and burning. :D

If you know the basics of computers then you shoud have no problem using either IMO. If you don't then using any OS is scary.

But epiphany rocks either way!

I was just saying that your kids have been born into a world of computers and cellphones, so trying out new technologies and figuring them out, is part of their daily lives and no big deal to them. Kids get a new cellphone every other year, so they're used to experimenting with new applications, new buttons, etc, etc. They're not a good example.

As for Epiphany vs. Firefox ... nah, I couldn't tell, I've never used Epiphany, nor do I intend to. I like Firefox and I like it was preinstalled on Ubuntu, but I'm sure I would have survived if it hadn't been there (I had to install it myself on Windows as well).

[drascus]

MY first experience with open source and Free Software was Firefox. When I learned about Ubuntu through a Cnet video I decided to give it a try. The fact that the familiar Firefox was on there really made me feel more comfortable Using Ubuntu and it was one less new thing I had to learn in order to make the transition.

[souneedalink]

I was just saying that your kids have been born into a world of computers and cellphones, so trying out new technologies and figuring them out, is part of their daily lives and no big deal to them. Kids get a new cellphone every other year, so they're used to experimenting with new applications, new buttons, etc, etc. They're not a good example.
and everyone else lives in that same world... My kids dont have cellphones. Do not know what facebook or myspace is. I often have to explain how to do anything on a computer beyond very basic usage - the basic knowledge they have served them just as well on linux as it did on windows.

My mom switches cellphones every year or so and manages that too... :D



As for Epiphany vs. Firefox ... nah, I couldn't tell, I've never used Epiphany, nor do I intend to. I like Firefox and I like it was preinstalled on Ubuntu, but I'm sure I would have survived if it hadn't been there (I had to install it myself on Windows as well).
Did you need IE on linux to help ease the transition? Didn't you get confused when you seen the little fox instead of the blue e? How uncomfortable were you.

Seriously, if you have never REALLY tried epiphany you should. Especially the bookmarks. It is sort of like 'tags' for posts except you create topics and you can access them by typing in the topic in the address bar. Epiphany also seems lighter to me but I havent ran firefox for a long while. Once you get an epiphany....
:lolflag:

[souneedalink]

MY first experience with open source and Free Software was Firefox. When I learned about Ubuntu through a Cnet video I decided to give it a try. The fact that the familiar Firefox was on there really made me feel more comfortable Using Ubuntu and it was one less new thing I had to learn in order to make the transition.

You dont feel that many other things in life are similar yet different and you manage those just fine?

How did you ever get familiar with firefox? Was you eased thru the transition somehow? Was it that different than internet explorer? Was it scary?
:popcorn:

[rune0077]

Did you need IE on linux to help ease the transition? Didn't you get confused when you seen the little fox instead of the blue e? How uncomfortable were you.

Seriously, if you have never REALLY tried epiphany you should. Especially the bookmarks. It is sort of like 'tags' for posts except you create topics and you can access them by typing in the topic in the address bar. Epiphany also seems lighter to me but I havent ran firefox for a long while. Once you get an epiphany....
:lolflag:

I never used IE on Windows either, so obviously I wouldn't need it on Linux either. I'll stick to Firefox, though, since it's a great browser (but yes, you're right, it is a little resource heavy).

[bruce89]

Sorry to dig this old thread up.

At some point, all of the places that use Gecko in GNOME (Epiphany, Yelp, Devhelp) will use WebKit only. This will put pressure on Ubuntu to change to a WebKit browser (having 2 Web engines installed would be too much). I'd give it a year or two.

At least the Epiphany developers don't require all changes to be signed off.


Even after people lose, they can still rage on. The Epiphany advocates are a quite vocal, even if small, minority.

I am a bit vocal, yes.


re: Epiphany being ugly and huge. I'm guessing thats talking about the size of the "Back, Stop, Forward" buttons etc. Which is the one turnoff with Epiphany's default layout for me. But I hide them and its cleaner looking than Firefox.

It follows GNOME's toolbar preferences. (System>Preferences>Appearance>Interface)


I choose other for the simple reason that Mozilla is free software. There are a lot of forks of Firefox, but in the end its foundation is free software. Worrying about what gets bundled in the vanilla installation is a problem reserved for proprietary vendors whose decisions determine how wealth gets spread. Free software is free software, and any distribution can bundle whatever they like, since, unlike the proprietary vendor's browser, it is as easy to change as one's socks.

Free Software where Ubuntu has to get permission to modify? This doesn't sound very "Free" to me.

The interesting thing to note is that most of the Ubuntu developers use Epiphany. I see it as "the thinking person's browser".

[Vadi]

I... disagree with the two web engines installed problem. Many people already have both Gnome and KDE installed, and in my case, I even have Gnome, kde 3, and kde 4 installed. Why? Because I use programs from all of this spectrum.

So I really, really doubt that two web engines is a problem. I do hope that Epiphany manages to get to the same level of usability as firefox though; then it would be nice to have it as the default browser. But for now... firefox deserves it's market share growth.

That's great that developers use it. Developers != users. Let's repeat that again, developers are not users and many have completely different tastes and opinions than of users. I think reason why Ubuntu is doing so well is because it's catering to users more (and also appeals to the user side of the developers. Ie, easy use, things just work).

[bruce89]

I... disagree with the two web engines installed problem. Many people already have both Gnome and KDE installed, and in my case, I even have Gnome, kde 3, and kde 4 installed. Why? Because I use programs from all of this spectrum.

I highly doubt most people have more that one environment installed. Even I don't. The real issue would be CD space.


I do hope that Epiphany manages to get to the same level of usability as firefox though; then it would be nice to have it as the default browser. But for now... firefox deserves it's market share growth.

What do you mean by "usability"? I hope you don't regard Firefox as the epitome of usability, just like the people who say "this doesn't function like Windows" and think that's a bad thing.

[Triggerhapp]

I highly doubt most people have more that one environment installed. Even I don't. The real issue would be CD space.

I have XFCE, Gnome and Icewm installed, Personally, I dont see what my CD drive has to do with these XD.
On note, Im happy with Firefox. I refuse to fix what isnt broken, so there is no way im going to sudo apt-get install any other browser.
Firefox has got where it has for a reason.

[aysiu]

Even if a lot of people have more than one environment installed, Ubuntu still wants to keep each environment able to fit on one CD.

So if it gets too crowded to include Gecko and Webkit on one CD with the rest of ubuntu-desktop, they'll have to make some tough choices.

[bruce89]

Personally, I dont see what my CD drive has to do with these XD.

See


So if it gets too crowded to include Gecko and Webkit on one CD with the rest of ubuntu-desktop, they'll have to make some tough choices.

In other words, GNOME may grow to depend on WebKit, so there may not be enough space to have Gecko around.

[aysiu]

See



In other words, GNOME may grow to depend on WebKit, so there may not be enough space to have Gecko around.
And that's about the only way I see Epiphany becoming the default browser in Ubuntu.

[sumguy231]

Free Software where Ubuntu has to get permission to modify? This doesn't sound very "Free" to me.
It's a trademark* issue, and I can see where Mozilla is coming from: Mozilla is okay with modifications, but after it has been modified significantly, they don't want the Firefox branding attached to it. That's why you have Iceweasel in Debian. You can modify it as much as you want so long as you don't use the Firefox name.

*Or copyright, I don't know. Technically the branding would include both things, I guess.

[bruce89]

And that's about the only way I see Epiphany becoming the default browser in Ubuntu.

Aye, it is. I don't think having the two engines on the CD is going to be an issue however, especially if GNOME carries on down the Gecko and WebKit route.


It's a trademark* issue, and I can see where Mozilla is coming from: Mozilla is okay with modifications, but after it has been modified significantly, they don't want the Firefox branding attached to it. That's why you have Iceweasel in Debian. You can modify it as much as you want so long as you don't use the Firefox name.

How come they were alright with Ubuntu's modifications then? They were in fact larger than Debian's.

From Facts about Debian and Mozilla® Firefox® (http://glandium.org/blog/?p=97) :


We (Mozilla®) presently have working relationships with most of the major Linux distributions, including Red Hat, Novell, and Ubuntu (As seen in several posts from people of the Mozilla® Corporation or Foundation)
Very interesting. Ubuntu uses the same set of patches as Debian, with some more of their own, and even releases beta software in their official releases. But when it’s Ubuntu, it’s fine. Sorry, I forgot Debian is lame (http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2006/10/14/2148-lame-debian), and DDs are frustrated fanatic integrists (http://sexylizard.org/?2006/10/14/114-debian-c-est-bas#comments), on top of being bloody fanatic assholes.

[aysiu]

It's a trademark* issue, and I can see where Mozilla is coming from: Mozilla is okay with modifications, but after it has been modified significantly, they don't want the Firefox branding attached to it. That's why you have Iceweasel in Debian. You can modify it as much as you want so long as you don't use the Firefox name.

*Or copyright, I don't know. Technically the branding would include both things, I guess.
I don't see what the problem is. Ubuntu has its own trademarks that it guards as well.

[insane_alien]

the initially installed software isn't of great importance to me. i'll even use it if it doesn't have a GUI by default(arch). what matters to me is the hardware detection and auto configuration(at least to some base workable state) of said hardware. ubuntu has been the only one to do this properly. arch took me a few days to figure out my wireless connectivity but everything else was fine. all the others i have tried have had even more problems mainly wireless and graphics, for some reason mint had sketchy USB support. i thought it was based on ubuntu but my usb mouse didn't work.

[Eddie Wilson]

Can't believe that this is still going on. What difference does it make what the default browser is. Seems to me, that for new users anyway, it would be more of a problem if Firefox wasn't the default. New users coming from Windows wouldn't know what Epiphany is but a lot of them would know what Firefox is. I downloaded and tried Epiphany a few weeks ago and its ok. It seems to be somewhat faster but nothing really stands out about it. I'm not saying that its not good because it is but for now Firefox has more to offer. Don't ask me what I'm talking about because if you don't know then a person really hasn't looked into things the way they should. I just can't see where this is a big deal if you are not a new user coming form Windows.

Eddie

[Mateo]

More people use Firefox, so Firefox should be default.

/thread

I use Epiphany exclusively but I don't see the point in having a less popular browser as default.

[aysiu]

More people use Firefox, so Firefox should be default.

/thread

I use Epiphany exclusively but I don't see the point in having a less popular browser as default.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but the Epiphany would argue that more people use Firefox because it is the default, which I think is bunk, since most Firefox users are Windows users, not Ubuntu users.

[Mateo]

^^ To me it doesn't matter why the browser is more popular. Give the people what they want, period. Leave the evangelism to internet boards, don't force software down my throat. And again, I'm a Epiphany user.

[Vadi]

I don't believe that just because -you- (whoever this applies to) like thing A, and the thing A works for the uses that you have for it, should be force the majority to use it too, just because you like it and it works for you.

Especially when anyone, if they want, can give thing A a try easily.

[sahaqiel]

I don't believe that just because -you- (whoever this applies to) like thing A, and the thing A works for the uses that you have for it, should be force the majority to use it too, just because you like it and it works for you.

Especially when anyone, if they want, can give thing A a try easily.

Well, I don't understand what is the big issue with thing A being default if that's what the majority uses and knows. As long as A can be removed/replaced at will, that's all that should matter ( unlike IE6, don't know about safari ).

Although I would like to see a Live CD that could let me install my preferred default browser or default email reader but I understand a cd only has so much space.

[Linux_Man]

Firefox should be in Ubuntu not only to help ease the transition from Windows to Linux but because it is so widely used. If you e-mail a webmaster why their site doesn't work in *insert obscure browser* they will probably not read your e-mail because it is too obscure for them to check out, but if it doesn't work in Firefox which has a large marketshare it doesn't matter if you are on Linux/Mac/Windows, its a widely used browser and he/she needs to fix it.

[deepclutch]

epiphany is a native Gnome browser.u should bundle epiphany with both engines(gecko and webkit)

[Linux_Man]

But epiphany lacks the user-base that Firefox has. Even though it is a great browser and all, most people won't have a clue what that is if a website is broken in it. Also what are you going to do for Kubuntu with Epiphany because loading all the GTK libraries is going to make performance very slow and even with Konqueror it would lack the familiarity that Firefox gives along with the support.

[dnairb]

I had no expectations either way re browser being/not being available - whatever was available I was willing to learn.

When I used Windows (removed Winnie completely last weekend - yay!) I used Firefox anyway (with Opera as a second choice. I only used IE when absolutely necessary, i.e. for Microsoft Update)

[myusername]

i think it should be an option in the installer asking what kind of software you want

[Samueltehg33k]

i love FF i even use it on my mac

[sumguy231]

But epiphany lacks the user-base that Firefox has. Even though it is a great browser and all, most people won't have a clue what that is if a website is broken in it. Also what are you going to do for Kubuntu with Epiphany because loading all the GTK libraries is going to make performance very slow and even with Konqueror it would lack the familiarity that Firefox gives along with the support.

I'm not a proponent of shipping Epiphany either, but it's built with Gecko by default, so web page rendering would be identical to Firefox (or similar to Safari/Konqueror if built with Webkit). I don't understand your argument about Kubuntu because it already ships with Konqueror as default, and GTK+2 applications, including Firefox, work just fine under KDE.


i think it should be an option in the installer asking what kind of software you want
This just wastes the time of everybody who wants Firefox, which is most people. Also it overcomplicates the installation process. Should it ask you what mail client you want to use as well?

[myusername]

no not if it has already been set to the default applications....do it just like how you partition a hard drive (you know with the automatic or manual setup) and it would ask what office application you want openoffice abiword or none and it would do the same with the email client and web browser

[RAV TUX]

My Choice in the poll:
prefer Firefox (other opinion on it being there by default)

What would be nice is if upon install of Ubuntu instead of having any one browser by default, the user was given the option about which Web Browser to install; I prefer both Firefox and Opera and I suspect every user will be different about their preferences.

The Opera Web Browser would be very easy to get a license agreement and the user could easily check off on the Agreement. Beyond the Opera and Firefox web browser I can respect a users wish to have Epiphany, Konqueror, Kazehakase, SeaMonkey, IceWeasel, Flock, SongBird or any other web browser. This choice should be respected for all users.

At the very least perhaps since Epiphany is the default Web Browser for Gnome this should be there by default. I remember when it used to be. Epiphany does have Adblock as an extension which is most important for a lot of people.

Then the Option to Install the Other Web Browsers could be given:

1. Firefox
2. IceWeasel
3. Opera
4. SeaMonkey
5. Kazehakase
6. Konqueoror
etc., etc.

I can see all the benefits of having Firefox by default on Ubuntu and I agree with them. Unfortunately, Firefox has become bloated(and this may be due to my own choice of using Firefox extensions), all though I enjoy Firefox immensely and use it mostly. The benefits of Kazehakase are tremendous.

While most experienced users will see this as a zero issue. The importance comes to New users, again for new users Firefox is perhaps the best for an easy transition. Whether or not it is the best Web Browser to have installed by default is debatable which is obviously why this Poll has been started.

Ubuntu has always been a distro that capitalizes on the ease of use for all people, unless Ubuntu is going to change their road map then Firefox would be the best by default to have installed on Ubuntu.

If Ubuntu and Linux in general is about freedom of choice then perhaps a choice should be given. This could easily be overcome if Ubuntu adopted a web based install system like PC-BSD has with PBI's (http://www.pbidir.com/). This has already been developed and implemented for Ubuntu and Debian based systems here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apt:foo). Then Ubuntu could have an Icon to install any program via the users favorite web browser.

Did having Firefox preinstalled matter to you?

When I first started with Linux when Epiphany was the web browser installed on Ubuntu by default I would say that yes that the first thing I did was install Firefox & then Flock and Opera, and every other Web Browser available.

When my Firefox crashes or is slow to load I use Opera. Perhaps, we should look at Fluxbuntu's lead in having Kazehakase installed by default. Even Opera installed by default would be a nice option.

At this point Firefox is the Web Browser by default, unless Ubuntu will give the user choices upon install or first boot, or even point to a Web Based install system as noted above then they should stick with Firefox.

[AndyCooll]

And that's about the only way I see Epiphany becoming the default browser in Ubuntu.
And if that does become the case I'll probably then manually install FF each time I rebuild my system.

From a personal point of view I much prefer FF because of the add-ons. It was also one of the two apps (oOo being the other) that I was familiar with and used regularly before I came across Linux.

Though I quite like Epiphany, until it has the extensions (and hence the functionality) of FF, I'll always prefer the latter to be pre-installed.

:cool:

[MONODA]

i would like it if iceweasel was preinstalled and icedove added to the repos.

[Samhain13]

I've been using Firefox even when I was using Windows.

Nothing against Epiphany, which I've tried using exclusively for some time, but I simply prefer Firefox over it.

[AndyCooll]

i would like it if iceweasel was preinstalled and icedove added to the repos.
Iceweasel is pre-installed, it's just called its actual name ...Firefox. So your point is?

:cool:

[bruce89]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but the Epiphany would argue that more people use Firefox because it is the default, which I think is bunk, since most Firefox users are Windows users, not Ubuntu users.

I have the feeling that Thunderbird is more popular that Evolution, but it'll never be replaced.


Even though it is a great browser and all, most people won't have a clue what that is if a website is broken in it.

Currently Epiphany and Firefox use the same rendering engine, so this can't be the case.


Also what are you going to do for Kubuntu with Epiphany because loading all the GTK libraries is going to make performance very slow and even with Konqueror it would lack the familiarity that Firefox gives along with the support.

Kubuntu uses Konqueror, and with good reason.


no not if it has already been set to the default applications....do it just like how you partition a hard drive (you know with the automatic or manual setup) and it would ask what office application you want openoffice abiword or none and it would do the same with the email client and web browser

That'd be nice.

[Vadi]

The thing is that Thunderbird vs Evolution and Firefox vs Epiphany have different user bases, mostly. Most people use web-based email, so they don't get into the complexities of setting up & keeping a mail program working. Those that do can get around choosing epiphany or firefox fine; it won't impact their ubuntu experience.

The default browser however a very important thing - many "normal" people are online these days.

Edit: Anyhow, I'm bowing out of this, since the thread doesn't seem to have a helpful prospect :|

[cardinals_fan]

No, but it is definitely the best browser available. There is no better alternative for them to install instead.