This seems Hardly Normal

[Forrest Gumpp]

My daughter is mid-way through a university course here in Australia. She has been using an Acer Aspire 3500 laptop (1.6GHz Centrino, 512MB RAM, 60 GB HDD) that came with Windows XP Home when it was purchased, new, three years ago. The OS was upgraded to XP Pro with a retail upgrade shortly before she started her course in 2006. The laptop is now out of warranty.

In this laptop the HDD and CD R/W are both showing signs of failing, while the CPU fan has failed. The battery function has also totally failed, the laptop now only being capable of being operated when plugged into a 240v AC power point. Replacement/repair of failed components by Acer has been estimated as costing in the order of around $600. The XP on this laptop is an OEM version, for which she has all the genuine recovery CDs.



A major Australian computer retailer going by the locally well known alias of 'Hardly Normal' currently has on sale Acer Aspire AS5520 (1.7 GHz Athlon 64, 1 GB DDR RAM, 160 GB HDD) laptops pre-loaded with Windows Vista, for around $850 after a $100 cashback. They would, of course, be dogs under Vista. Acer Australia advise that this model will run Windows XP Pro (ie. the computer is not deliberately crippled by the manufacturer for running XP as some other brands' laptops have been) provided you have your own genuine copy; Acer can supply no XP OEMs for this model. If you do have your own genuine XP, Acer provide the relevant drivers on their website for downloading.

Fortunately, my daughter has the offer of a genuine XP Pro license courtesy of a friend's multiple copy business license. Otherwise she would be stuck. At this stage in her course the last thing she wants to be doing is changing operating systems. It looks like for around $850 and some good luck she could have a new laptop and be running XP Pro, but no thanks to Microsoft.

The really interesting thing is that the Hardly Normal salesperson to whom I spoke advised that there were a number of other more expensive brand new Toshiba laptop models selling for around $1,500 and all with Vista pre-loaded, which come with an unsupported OEM copy of Windows XP in the box!

Has anyone heard of this sales tactic being used elsewhere?

Where could the copies of Windows XP be coming from at this stage after supplies are supposed to have all dried up, and to whom are they now being made (perhaps selectively) available?

Does this provide any insight into how desperately badly Vista is being received in the market?



I have been to the Ubuntu Hardware Compatibility List at: http://www.ubuntuhcl.org/ but found no entry for an Acer Aspire AS5520. Does anyone know whether this Acer model is compatible for Ubuntu? I think I can see a dual-booting scenario coming up for my daughter as the first step in an all-encompassing Final Solution.

[Whiffle]

i'm just curious why you would consider another acer? Sounds like the first one is a piece of junk...

As far as windows goes, it sounds like a circus.

[SZorg]

I work tech support for Micro Center, and some of our systems still ship with XP. Some of our systems, though, ship with "XP Downgrade Rights", which is essentially a system with XP Pro pre-installed and a Vista upgrade disk. If I were allowed, I would be pushing open source apps left and right, but it's a business, and giving people free alternatives to what you're selling doesn't really help keep your business alive.

[Forrest Gumpp]

@Whiffle

The Acer AS5520 is being considered for three reasons.

The first, and most important, is that it is capable of running Windows XP, not having been deliberately crippled for running XP as have some other laptops (notably some lower-end Toshibas) of a type and price range typically sought after by uni students.

The second is that, at $850 it is little more expensive than the $600+ required to repair the AS3500, and, being new will be under at least one year's warranty. With the remainder of this year, plus one year more to go to finish her course, notwithstanding the disappointing lack of durability of her Acer Aspire 3500, it seems reasonable to expect that a new Acer would at least see out her course. I have no confidence a repaired AS 3500 would.

The third is that by good fortune a legitimate non-OEM Windows XP installation is available courtesy of a friend's business licence, overcoming the unavailability of an OEM version of XP from Acer, who are nevertheless able to supply all necessary drivers for the AS5520 to run XP.

One of the main points I am trying to make is that because of the sheer unavailability of a full retail version of XP from Microsoft, and the fact that other new computers that are within her price range are no longer available with OEM versions of XP pre-installed, students in her situation face a forced change of operating system while they are fully occupied with completing their courses if, as in her case, their laptop suffers failure of significant components. Vista was simply not available prior to her commencing her course, and Microsoft have let students in such a situation down in a very big way by failing to maintain availability, for purchase, of full retail versions of Windows XP for at least five years after 2005.

@SZorg

I have no objection whatever to businesses selling downgrades, or including 'free' unsupported copies of XP in their offerings accompanying pre-installed Vista, if such are available. Nor do I suggest they should give away open source software at the expense of their own product lines' sales. My point is that XP has not been available either in the full retail version or pre-installed as an OEM on new computers at all in Australia for quite some time. And now, suddenly, and seemingly selectively, in a furtive way, it is.

What I am asking myself is, are these sudden reappearances of an otherwise previously unobtainable OS evidences of either a major conspiracy in restraint of trade between Microsoft and some hardware manufacturers to force the adoption of Vista by the market, or alternatively, of monopolistic standover tactics on the part of Microsoft forcing hardware manufacturers to withhold XP OEMs to the same end. I ask myself whether such practices, should they have occurred, would not be major breaches of the law both in Australia and the US.

[hyper_ch]

If your daughter is enrolled at university check whether it is also part of the MSDNAA ( http://www.msdnaa.net/search/schoolsearch.aspx ) and if so, she can get genuine free copies for XP/Vista and some other stuff...

[Forrest Gumpp]

@hyper_ch

Thank you for this potentially most useful information.

My daughter's university is affiliated with the MSDNAA program. Unfortunately, she is not pursuing studies in the IT faculty, to which this access appears to be restricted. However, she has a friend doing IT studies, so she will be able to pursue the matter via that avenue.

If she can obtain a non-OEM version of Windows XP through this program, then her choice of replacement hardware may be widened. What seems not to be appreciated by Microsoft, for all of the generosity that may be involved in the availability of free software through such a program, is that decisions to replace defective hardware during a university course really do have to be made on the fly. This possibility is evidently not widely advertised, yet my daughter has been a paying customer of Microsoft.

My point in raising an essentially Microsoft sales policy problem in the Ubuntu Forums has been to demonstrate the extreme damage inflicted upon, and disloyalty to, paying customers by Microsoft's premature withdrawal of availability of XP software for sale.

I don't think that the strength of determination on the part of many so betrayed by MS to permanently lock that corporation out of future dealings is fully appreciated by the Ubuntu community. As a consequence, an untapped potential financial resource by way of contribution to (perhaps paid) development of free software may be going begging.

[Lord DarkPat]

don't take this is an offence, but i don't think cheap is probable in university(my mom's already cashed up 3000 bucks for my comp after 10th), it's her future of course.'
But if you can't afford a really decent laptop, go for a Toshiba, but if ou can, Mac all the way!!

[billgoldberg]

Switching from xp to vista isn't such a big deal as you will think.

The "start button" is now an "orb" and the bar has changed to a black transparent color.

That's the only change most normal users have when vista is pre-installed on their pc.

[SZF2001]

Have you thought of maybe getting one of those Eee laptops? There should be XP models coming...

[jrusso2]

Switching from xp to vista isn't such a big deal as you will think.

The "start button" is now an "orb" and the bar has changed to a black transparent color.

That's the only change most normal users have when vista is pre-installed on their pc.

No Vista works a lot like XP except for the UAC. The problem though is software compatibility and peripherals like printers and scanners.

[LaRoza]

Is there a reason not to use a Linux based OS? OpenSuSE is a very good Linux distro, which may be worth looking into.

(Unless she needs Windows programs specifically)

[Forrest Gumpp]

My daughter simply wishes to avoid the complications, real or imagined, of any change from the operating system with which she is already familiar. Although her brother and I are each running Ubuntu, I am not pushing for any changeover to Linux for her at this stage.

If it was up to me, I would set up a dual boot between Windows XP Pro and one or other release of Ubuntu on either her to-be-repaired, or alternatively new, laptop. Now is not the time to push this, as she has quite a full schedule between living away from home, doing her uni course, regular part time work, and vacational clinical placement on-the-job training obligations.

It is interesting to note the conflicting posts of billgoldberg and jrusso2 in this thread with respect to just how little may be involved in going from XP to Vista, even assuming that Vista runs reasonably well on your proposed new hardware.

And of course she does have applications specific to Windows XP which she requires continuing access to.

Don't worry, she'll get as much help as she asks for when and if she is free to experiment with Linux.

[LaRoza]

My daughter simply wishes to avoid the complications, real or imagined, of any change from the operating system with which she is already familiar. Although her brother and I are each running Ubuntu, I am not pushing for any changeover to Linux for her at this stage.

If it was up to me, I would set up a dual boot between Windows XP Pro and one or other release of Ubuntu on either her to-be-repaired, or alternatively new, laptop. Now is not the time to push this, as she has quite a full schedule between living away from home, doing her uni course, regular part time work, and vacational clinical placement on-the-job training obligations.

It is interesting to note the conflicting posts of billgoldberg and ZSF2001 in this thread with respect to just how little may be involved in going from XP to Vista, even assuming that Vista runs reasonably well on your proposed new hardware.

And of course she does have applications specific to Windows XP which she requires continuing access to.

Don't worry, she'll get as much help as she asks for when and if she is free to experiment with Linux.
I wasn't trying to push Linux, just wondering if it was a solution.

For Vista, I can't see myself recommending it. But Vista (if a cheaper solution) isn't that bad for someone who uses Windows. (It is unstable, it easts up RAM, and it is a pain. But that is Windows)

[Forrest Gumpp]

@Lord DarkPat

There have been, over recent months, plenty of good deals, pricewise, for a range of quite reputable brands of laptops from Australian dealers. Toshiba laptops have been among them. Indeed, my wife's computer is a Toshiba Satellite A100/Y03 Notebook with Windows XP pre-installed, purchased early last year for just under $800 AUD at the time of the XP run-out. My daughter would have been more than happy to have been able to purchase a new Toshiba in or slighly above this price range, but the problem is that whilst the Toshiba brand name and comparable deals have been around, those particular Toshiba models were described to me as being crippled so far as removal of Vista in favour of the running of XP was concerned.

General Observations

Toshiba has a good name in this field, and they have damaged their sales prospects by marketing models crippled for the running of XP at a time before Vista is established in the eyes of the market as a worthwhile OS purchase. I cannot believe that Toshiba would have willingly damaged their own sales prospects in this way at this time. That is why I question in my own mind whether Toshiba has felt coerced into this course by Microsoft, thereby being dragooned into helping force the uptake of Vista.

What I think we may be seeing now is Toshiba releasing previously withheld XP OEMs to help sell its higher-specced models built with intention of handling Vista bloat, but remaining difficult to sell to a market very reluctant to take up Vista. For Toshiba to have of its own volition both withheld OEMs it already had licences for at a time when stocks of lower specced models remained unsold, and yet at the same time built higher specced models to take advantage of an expected reasonable uptake of Vista just does not make commercial sense.

That is why I question as to whether there was collusion, or, alternatively, coercion, previously involved on the part of one or more major corporations. This thread is in no way focussing upon the quality or durability (albeit disappointing in this particular case) of Acer laptops. This thread aims to show that a corporation fond of adopting a threatening posture against free and open source software may have some seriously big skeletons in its own closet with respect to anti-trust type legislative compliance.

The curious re-appearance of these XP OEMs, if indeed they have come from Toshiba, may be Toshiba's way of saying to Microsoft "Ohne mich, mein freund". (Loosely translated, 'you're on your own, buddy', a commonly used expression from a different era and place, but a disconcertingly similar politico-corporate milieu.)

Time for Ubuntu to wake up to the fact that Microsoft is not necessarily in fact corporately ten feet tall on the world stage. Time to start marshalling ideas for mobilizing the latent financial support of a lot of betrayed users who would be only too happy to support a ready-to-use alternative that does not come with forced obsolescence.