no more mp3s [Archive] - Ubuntu Forums

Kvark

October 5th, 2005, 09:21 PM

They are worried that entertainment companies would take advantage of the unclear details to prosecute people who make private copies.

Parliament responded to these concerns by adding a statement to the law expressing the hope that companies would voluntarily avoid doing so.
I have never before heard of a law that says "If you discover that anyone breaks this law then we hope that you voluntarily let them get away with it." :confused:

This law would have a very negative impact on CD sales if people would actually care about it.

Stormy Eyes

October 5th, 2005, 09:34 PM

LOL, somehow I think you wanting to spank her has nothing to do with mp3's....

Nah. I wanted to spank her for her idiot comment about how Finland can't legislate in a certain manner because of the EU. Is Finland sovereign or not?

Jussi Kukkonen

October 5th, 2005, 09:44 PM

Ripping cd's to mp3 is now illegal in Finland, even for your own use:
http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id18684.html
This law really sucks. Not that i'm going to obey them, but anyway... :???: "
You misunderstood, which is understandable considering the lousy article (not characteristic of YLE normally btw). This law is quite similar to the DMCA in the states: ripping a CD for own use is definitely legal, but breaking a copy prevention technique while doing it is not legal...

Karpela sees that this is what the EU directive says, but many people disagree (including the previous government, the current constitutional board of the parliament and me).

It's a ****ed up system, and I urge everyone to buy the copy prevented (disks that look like) CDs, and then return them to the store saying "these are useless, give me my money back".

Jussi Kukkonen

October 5th, 2005, 09:48 PM

Nah. I wanted to spank her for her idiot comment about how Finland can't legislate in a certain manner because of the EU. Is Finland sovereign or not?
Huh? Finland has agreed to make her laws match the EU ones. So have the other EU members.

imagine

October 5th, 2005, 09:50 PM

Is this illegal in other countries? They are talking about "not diverging from the EU directive on copyrights."Yes. Actually Finland was one of the very last countries of the European Union to follow this EU Copyright Directive. The EUCD is basically the European counterpart to the DMCA, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Copyright_Directive
The EUCD was adopted 2001 and until the end of 2002 all members of the EU had to put it into effect with a national law. As you see Finland is three years too late, because the first attempt 2003 to enforce the EUCD in Finland failed.
2004 the EU Council already adopted the successor of the EUCD, the EU IP Enforcement, which can be translated into "EUCD on steroids". But I don't know when this will be enforced in Finland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_the_enforcement_of_intellectual_prope rty_rights

You misunderstood, which is understandable considering the lousy article (not characteristic of YLE normally btw). This law is quite similar to the DMCA in the states: ripping a CD for own use is definitely legal, but breaking a copy prevention technique while doing it is not legal...Yes, ripping a not-copyprocted Disc is still legal at the moment. But this is subject to change.

It's a ****ed up system, and I urge everyone to buy the copy prevented (disks that look like) CDs, and then return them to the store saying "these are useless, give me my money back".Easier: Just don't buy any music or movies which are so-called "protected" in whatever way. That is almost all DVDs, some music CDs and AFAIK every music online shop except of AllOfMP3. That way you don't have to back to the store, because you haven't been even there in the first place.
Just remember that the only languge the Music And Film Industry Association (MAFIA) understands is the language of money.

scourge

October 5th, 2005, 10:15 PM

You misunderstood, which is understandable considering the lousy article (not characteristic of YLE normally btw). This law is quite similar to the DMCA in the states: ripping a CD for own use is definitely legal, but breaking a copy prevention technique while doing it is not legal...

Exactly. Our parliament is obviously trying to please everyone, the EU and the people of Finland. That's why they are criminalizing cracking copy protections but still telling us that we will be able to take copies of our cds also in the future. They want us to believe that record companies will provide us means to take our few copies without touching the copy protection. The problem is, of course, that we can't have it both ways: we either take the copies and break the copy protection OR we don't take copies and we don't break the copy protection.

The green party is definitely getting my vote in the next parliamentary election, and probably also in the presidential election because right now we could really use a president who wouldn't be afraid to take a stance on important issues, someone who wouldn't just keep her mouth shut for 6 years.

Stormy Eyes

October 5th, 2005, 10:51 PM

Huh? Finland has agreed to make her laws match the EU ones. So have the other EU members.

Then the politicians of Finland are all guilty of treason and should be hanged. Same for the other EU member nations. A politician who turns his country's sovereignty over to a foreign power is a traitor.

xequence

October 5th, 2005, 10:58 PM

It's a ****ed up system, and I urge everyone to buy the copy prevented (disks that look like) CDs, and then return them to the store saying "these are useless, give me my money back".

I read somewhere that copy protected CDs switch the music to analog then back to digital or something to stop copying, which makes it have not as good quality.

Lovechild

October 5th, 2005, 11:26 PM

I think we were talking about the fact that mp3s of Stormy spanking to the Finnish minister of culture should be illegal.

poofyhairguy

October 5th, 2005, 11:59 PM

Can we get back on topic?

BoyOfDestiny

October 6th, 2005, 12:00 AM

Ripping cd's to mp3 is now illegal in Finland, even for your own use:
http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id18684.html
This law really sucks. Not that i'm going to obey them, but anyway... :???:
Is this illegal in other countries? They are talking about "not diverging from the EU directive on copyrights."
Glad to know the U.S isn't the only one that let's "extensions" of huge corporations stick wads of money (euros?) in people's pockets so they can have things their way...
Wait a sec, I'm not glad about this at all... I always have hope for europe, if not the u.s or europe... all that is left is asia and africa... Ironically, China: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/04/content_3581780.htm
wants to make their own HD-DVD standard with it's own copy protection.
Tell me I'm not the only one who enjoys fair use...

occy8

October 6th, 2005, 12:28 AM

that law is ridiculous!!! It should be challenged at a European court.
This law makes all mp3 players useless, specially car stereos playing mp3's or does anyone know of mp3 cd's available in shops?

dcraven

October 6th, 2005, 01:20 AM

So just rip them to ogg.

~djc

Lovechild

October 6th, 2005, 01:51 AM

Then the politicians of Finland are all guilty of treason and should be hanged. Same for the other EU member nations. A politician who turns his country's sovereignty over to a foreign power is a traitor.

Okay, then let me just fetch the rope and hang my collaborator government.. never again shall the US make decisions on my soil!!

occy8

October 6th, 2005, 06:12 AM

So just rip them to ogg.
~djc

That's illegal too. No copies for private use, that includes my ancient walkman and the dusty tapes. too bad, if any of you Finns want to donate their worthless hardware please let me know:grin:

Jussi Kukkonen

October 6th, 2005, 08:44 AM

Yes, ripping a not-copyprocted Disc is still legal at the moment. But this is subject to change.
Not in Finland, if the current parliament has anything to say about it. That was clearly where they drew the line this time.

Easier: Just don't buy any music or movies which are so-called "protected" in whatever way. That is almost all DVDs, some music CDs and AFAIK every music online shop except of AllOfMP3. That way you don't have to back to the store, because you haven't been even there in the first place.
Just remember that the only languge the Music And Film Industry Association (MAFIA) understands is the language of money.
Exactly , and the large store chains are the ones who have them by the balls -- If the stores complain about returned disks (minutes of service without any purchase mean a lot in that world), those disks will disappear.

mcduck

October 6th, 2005, 09:14 AM

You have to remember, that breaking copy protection to get your music or DVDs to work is illegal, and should be punished, but copying the same music from P2P networks is only illegal, _but_not_to_be_punished_ according to our new law. So why would anyone buy CDs anymore? If ou buy a CD and move the music to your iPod, you are a criminal. If you don't buy the music, but get it for free it's OK. Propably I should now destroy all my CDs so nobody can prove that I have ripped them to my computer..

I'd think that this is the absolute opposite of what the law should say.

I also find the part of law that forbids talking about copy protections and breaking them.. I'm thinking about making myself a nice new t-shirt with this text: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/qrpff.pl

Now that would result in an illegal t-shirt, as it would contain information about breaking DVD copy protection :D

Kvark

October 6th, 2005, 09:20 AM

Then the politicians of Finland are all guilty of treason and should be hanged. Same for the other EU member nations. A politician who turns his country's sovereignty over to a foreign power is a traitor.
In most EU member nations it was the people not the politicians that took that decision. They had a big extra election where people voted yes or no to joining EU.

But it is very possible for a member nation to do things it's own way. Sweden have refused to do as EU says a couple times. EU always responds by granting an exception. The other members probably do this from time to time as well.

scourge

October 6th, 2005, 09:48 AM

A-star

October 6th, 2005, 10:58 AM

just something to think about:

If I use the digital-out on my cd-player and connect it to my digital-in on my soundcard and make a recording and convert it to mp3. If the original cd has copy-protection on it, is this still illegal or is this legal?

23meg

October 6th, 2005, 02:06 PM

i just noticed that the default app that launches when you insert an audio cd in Breezy is, guess what: sound juicer. no comments.

Stormy Eyes

October 6th, 2005, 03:36 PM

In most EU member nations it was the people not the politicians that took that decision. They had a big extra election where people voted yes or no to joining EU.

In that case, the people deserve laws like this, since they voted for EU membership. People get the government they deserve, which is why that of the US is so craptacular.

hesee

October 6th, 2005, 04:44 PM

In that case, the people deserve laws like this, since they voted for EU membership. People get the government they deserve, which is why that of the US is so craptacular.

Well, we have to remember that voting for EU membership was in Finland eleven years ago. Many younger people, including me, had no right to vote that time. And at those times, people knew very little, what this whole EU was about. At least, they knew very little about mp3s ;-)

M7S

October 6th, 2005, 05:10 PM

****, I may have to retract my statement about voting for the greens, especially in the presidential election. It seems that only 3 of them (not including their presidential candidate) voted against this law. In a previous vote the greens were all united to change the law proposition so naturally I thought they wouldn't flip-flop here. Silly me, having faith in politicians.
Do you have a link? I would like to know who vote for what.
According to this page (http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1101980971029) it would still be legal to break the copy protection of the orginal CD or DVD (for example on another device in the home or car). Would this mean that programs like libdvdcss would still be legal? Will programs that can be used to break copy protection be illegal or vill it only be the use of them that is illigal?
Regards,
M7S

Edit:
The register had the answers (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/finlands_drm_law/) to my questions.

Sirin

October 6th, 2005, 05:18 PM

Oh man, that's bad for folks in Finland. Well, you could use The iTunes Music Store... :rolleyes:

As for us folks in the U.S., let's hope Mr. Bush doesn't mess anything up here. :eek:

hesee

October 6th, 2005, 05:29 PM

Do you have a link? I would like to know who vote for what.

Here you are, don't know if i managed to link it properly:

http://www.eduskunta.fi/triphome/bin/thw/trip/?${BASE}=aanestys&${THWIDS}=3.57/434472&${html}=aan5000&${THWURLSAVE}=57/434472&${maxhits}=1000

Seems that at least Tony Halme is still fighting against the system ;-)

M7S

October 6th, 2005, 05:48 PM

Oh man, that's bad for folks in Finland. Well, you could use The iTunes Music Store... :rolleyes:
As for us folks in the U.S., let's hope Mr. Bush doesn't mess anything up here. :eek:
Afaik these things are already badly messed up in U.S. Worse than in Finland. But maybe I missunderstood what you ment.

And even if I'm no friend of Bush, I belive that it's the congress and senate that has the power to stop MPAA and RIAA from killing fair use.

Regards,
M7S

Stormy Eyes

October 6th, 2005, 07:12 PM

And even if I'm no friend of Bush, I belive that it's the congress and senate that has the power to stop MPAA and RIAA from killing fair use.

You're right except for one detail: the Senate is one of the houses of Congress (the House of Representatives is the other).

M7S

October 7th, 2005, 06:04 PM

Here you are, don't know if i managed to link it properly:

http://www.eduskunta.fi/triphome/bin/thw/trip/?${BASE}=aanestys&${THWIDS}=3.57/434472&${html}=aan5000&${THWURLSAVE}=57/434472&${maxhits}=1000

Seems that at least Tony Halme is still fighting against the system ;-)

I almost missed your message...

Anyway, the link didn't work :( (maybe it would have if I should have seen it yesterday). And Halme won't get my vote no matter what he votes for. I could live without boxers as well as former miss Finlands in the parlament. ;-)

You're right except for one detail: the Senate is one of the houses of Congress (the House of Representatives is the other).
Well that makes sence. Thanks for clearing it up.

Reagards,
M7S

primeirocrime

October 8th, 2005, 12:41 AM

[revolt]
Get together all of you Finnish people and revolt! They keep us entangled on that notion of law but they forget that mp3 and even pcm are not actually analog representations of music but a digital discription of that music.
If this was about getting metal masters of the music I would understand their concern, but it's not it's just a bunch of bits and bytes and most importantly some bits and bytes left out because of compression. I will never pay for an MP3 file never, it's like buying fake peanut butter or a plastic cheese cake, what's the point?

Boycott music stores and get music only from other nations and store them [now I go into mad mode] in a server in a different country, then make it public «I have 23 566 music files and 345 dvd's on that server what can you do to me now?»

Manifest in the streets with sound systems pumping mp3 files you made at home with your one voice screaming «this is an mp3 file playing, I made it myself» on a loop near the the Government building, big music stores whatever.

Get musicians to join you, they are ripped off by the Industry, ask them to make a song to a special CD called This is an MP3 record, pump it up it's free!

Just don't let them have their way.

[end of revolt]

Freddy

October 8th, 2005, 01:18 AM

But it is very possible for a member nation to do things it's own way. Sweden have refused to do as EU says a couple times. EU always responds by granting an exception. The other members probably do this from time to time as well.
This law was incoperated efter much discussion in Sweden to. From July first this summer, it became illigal to break copyprotection here to. /// Freddan

ow50

October 8th, 2005, 01:38 AM

The new law was written to please the corporations and it was approved by old MPs who don't understand modern technology. The main concern in the parliament was how the new law would affect church music.

There was a protest just before passing the law, with representatives from youth organisations of all major parties.
http://www.theregister.com/2005/10/04/finland_drm_protests/

The previous attempt for a copyright law was even more ridicilous. There were jokes on how it would have made selling felt pens illegal since they could be used in breaking the copy protection of a CD.

BoyOfDestiny

October 8th, 2005, 01:59 AM

I hope this is real. It's hard to tell with hi-tech nowadays.

Netsukuku the Anarchical Parallel Internet
http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/10/06/1421213&from=rss

This could solve the problem, and you wouldn't have to rip your own cd... haha

Stormy Eyes

October 8th, 2005, 04:53 AM

[revolt]
Get together all of you Finnish people and revolt! They keep us entangled on that notion of law but they forget that mp3 and even pcm are not actually analog representations of music but a digital discription of that music.

You call that a revolt? Where are the guillotines? Hell, man, where's the tar and feathers for the scoundrels who claim to be Finland's leaders? If you're going to foment rebellion, do it right and call for the heads of the politicians.

M7S

October 8th, 2005, 11:06 AM

This law was incoperated efter much discussion in Sweden to. From July first this summer, it became illigal to break copyprotection here to. /// Freddan
I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't belive that this would happen in Sweden to. I heard you got an new law about intellectual property, but I didn't know that it had this copy protection nonsens in it. Actually, the last thing I heard about Sweden and copy protection was that open letter from the Swedish Minister of Justice and some other politicans, where he wrote that they were planning on making it illegal to use any copy protection would make fair use impossible. Apparently you can say one thing and do the opposite. I guess that was only a lame atempt not to look as the bad guys then...

What about the other Nordic countries? Is it as bad Norway and Denmark? At least theres no one who forces Norway into making stupid decissions since their not a part of EU.

Regards,
M7S

Lovechild

October 8th, 2005, 02:23 PM

What about the other Nordic countries? Is it as bad Norway and Denmark? At least theres no one who forces Norway into making stupid decissions since their not a part of EU.

Regards,
M7S

We currently have freedom in Denmark, however the danish version of the RIAA are working on fixing that.

I can even legally break the encryption on a DVD should it hinder me from playing it - which is does.

I'd expect freedom to go away shortly - I say we outsource the process of terminating our leaders to Stormy.. he seems to enjoy such things. What say thee master of rebellion, care do go Che on my government?

primeirocrime

October 8th, 2005, 04:30 PM

You call that a revolt? Where are the guillotines? Hell, man, where's the tar and feathers for the scoundrels who claim to be Finland's leaders? If you're going to foment rebellion, do it right and call for the heads of the politicians.

yeah I call that revolt... well look at soviet union or what happen to france after they had their rebellions, the fascists came in.
No no no, no violence, I'm for Civil Disobedience, violence just breeds more violence. Violence is a big rock to throw it generally falls into one's head.

Disrupt the media, make noise, annoying people get's the job done. Spam their boxes, flood their basements. Paint their cars with pink and puke green.

Kvark

October 8th, 2005, 06:53 PM

yeah I call that revolt... well look at soviet union or what happen to france after they had their rebellions, the fascists came in.
No no no, no violence, I'm for Civil Disobedience, violence just breeds more violence. Violence is a big rock to throw it generally falls into one's head.

Disrupt the media, make noise, annoying people get's the job done. Spam their boxes, flood their basements. Paint their cars with pink and puke green.
No, annoying people don't get the job done. If you repaint some politician's car and those other things you will just end up in jail for terrorist activity and everyone will hear about it on the news and think "Those idiots who have a different political oppinion are so annoying. Can't we just round up and deport all the annoying non-mainstream people."

What do you do when software takes control over the user? - Get people to switch to Free software.
What do you do when record companies do the same thing? - Get people to switch to Free music! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music)

Let RIAA put on any amount of DRM they want. Tell people they have a choice between the commercial music that is 'protected' from them and Free music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music) that they are actually allowed and able to listen to. Those who still want commercial music deserve all the DRM the records companies can ever come up with. Those who switch to Free music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music) won't have to worry about it. Then the free market will decide, the alternative people want will eventually become the most wide spread alternative.

Cirkus

October 8th, 2005, 07:02 PM

No, annoying people don't get the job done. If you repaint some politician's car and those other things you will just end up in jail for terrorist activity and everyone will hear about it on the news and think "Those idiots who have a different political oppinion are so annoying. Can't we just round up and deport all the annoying non-mainstream people."

What do you do when software takes control over the user? - Get people to switch to Free software.
What do you do when record companies do the same thing? - Get people to switch to Free music! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music)

Let RIAA put on any amount of DRM they want. Tell people they have a choice between the commercial music that is 'protected' from them and Free music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music) that they are actually allowed and able to listen to. Those who still want commercial music deserve all the DRM the records companies can ever come up with. Those who switch to Free music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music) won't have to worry about it. Then the free market will decide, the alternative people want will eventually become the most wide spread alternative.

The problem is, unless you like rave or folk (both of which I detest, personally) most 'free' music is crap (music, unlike software, is one place where you really do 'get what you pay for').

mcduck

October 8th, 2005, 07:46 PM

Those who still want commercial music deserve all the DRM the records companies can ever come up with. Those who switch to Free music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_music) won't have to worry about it. Then the free market will decide, the alternative people want will eventually become the most wide spread alternative.
What about those, who want _good_ music? I sure won't choose my music by it's price, and I don't think that placing quality over price means that I deserve to loose all rights to music I've paid for. And I think that I have right to listen to what erver music I happen to like, wheter it's free or commercial.

What you said is like saying that all those people who want/need to use commercial software deserve viruses, spyware etc., just because they don't use free software.. Forcing somebody to use free software or listen to free music would be limitting he's freedom of choise.

Stormy Eyes

October 8th, 2005, 07:50 PM

No no no, no violence, I'm for Civil Disobedience, violence just breeds more violence. Violence is a big rock to throw it generally falls into one's head.

I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to hijack the thread again. Once per thread is enough.

Stormy Eyes

October 8th, 2005, 07:54 PM

Disrupt the media, make noise, annoying people get's the job done. Spam their boxes, flood their basements. Paint their cars with pink and puke green.

Yeah, that works really well for the anti-globalization people. Do you want to know what really works? Money. G0 into business, get rich, and start buying politicians. Buy enough of the right politicians, and you can subvert any government, no matter how much lip service it pays to democracy. That's the American way.

primeirocrime

October 8th, 2005, 09:12 PM

I remember Seattle in 99. Protest allways works. And that anti-globalization people tag is something the media uses. I for one I'm pro Globalization but one I can dance too. Well, not techno... maybe some African music and beeds on my neck while I scream slogans anti-babylon.

poofyhairguy

October 8th, 2005, 10:19 PM

Do you want to know what really works? Money. G0 into business, get rich, and start buying politicians. Buy enough of the right politicians, and you can subvert any government, no matter how much lip service it pays to democracy. That's the American way.

I have to agree. That is the American way. Protests are a quick way to make your labels become cuss words over time (like the word "feminist" is in many parts of America). Moderate, mainstream America only responds to capital. I know there is a big world out there that doesn't, but a lot of people deciding policy for huge parts of the world (despite what the people in those areas want- looking at you World Bank) adhere to that mentality.

But thats where OSS has an advantage. You know what industry OGGs are huge in? Computer Games. Why? Because they can add compressed sound without paying for MP3 rights. Because its cheaper.

Thats where OSS can win. When its easier and cheaper. When its harder and more expensive, it must work more to be easier and cheaper before it will be used by the masses.

Cirkus

October 8th, 2005, 10:27 PM

I have to agree. That is the American way. Protests are a quick way to make your labels become cuss words over time (like the word "feminist" is in many parts of America). Moderate, mainstream America only responds to capital. I know there is a big world out there that doesn't, but a lot of people deciding policy for huge parts of the world (despite what the people in those areas want- looking at you World Bank) adhere to that mentality.

[me too]
This is exactly why the word 'liberal' is a cussword in America whereas it isn't in the rest of the world. The cominbation of elitism, holier-than-thou attitudes (something vegans and feminists are esp prone too, though they are not alone) and being shrill and screaming have completely turned mainstream america off of causes which involve hippies dancing around a fire singing crappy folk songs.
[/me too]

Kvark

October 8th, 2005, 10:34 PM

What about those, who want _good_ music? I sure won't choose my music by it's price, and I don't think that placing quality over price means that I deserve to loose all rights to music I've paid for. And I think that I have right to listen to what erver music I happen to like, wheter it's free or commercial.

What you said is like saying that all those people who want/need to use commercial software deserve viruses, spyware etc., just because they don't use free software.. Forcing somebody to use free software or listen to free music would be limitting he's freedom of choise.
I agree that most free music is crap. But most commercial music is also crap. Most commercial bands sing about the same topic, use the same instruments, sound the same. Then they get one or two of their songs hyped on MTV and/or the radio so people buy a CD with 15 more songs that sound almost the same. The only thing that is high quality about commerical music is that all the artists are good looking.

Regarding your software analogy. Viruses, spyware and other security issues has nothing to do with what kind of licence the software comes with. Apple's OSX is not plagued with as much viruses as Windows desipite having a propriarity style licence. The only ones who deserve viruses are the guys who designed Windows so that an email attachment could run as root.

poofyhairguy

October 8th, 2005, 10:42 PM

[me too]
This is exactly why the word 'liberal' is a cussword in America whereas it isn't in the rest of the world. The cominbation of elitism, holier-than-thou attitudes (something vegans and feminists are esp prone too, though they are not alone) and being shrill and screaming have completely turned mainstream america off of causes which involve hippies dancing around a fire singing crappy folk songs.
[/me too]

Of course its not all the fault of liberals. A huge part of it is (maybe most) is the caricature painted about liberals (that ou just described well). The fact that enemies of liberal ideology has successfully gotten across that MOST liberals are crazy extremists with poor attitudes and low moral codes whenever that is not the case. Most people that vote for the democratic party (and the republican party) are normal people. But that doesn't help win elections, that doesn't help bring power. So American liberals paint conservatives as heartless (even though my mom- a conservative- donates to charity more than almost any other expense) and convervative paint liberals as uptight wackos. And now neither can agree on everything because they are covered with mud from slinging.

But for people that want to defend their ideology, the worst thing they can do is something extreme. A friend of mine who is an extreme environmentalist used to say that the people that would break SUVs and throw paint on fur coats are ok because "at least they are doing something." But I say (and the numbers show) thats they hurt their cause way more than they help because it gives enemies a brush in which to paint environmentalists as extremists and no one official can support such policies without political suicide. Its never better to be an extremist if your actions can hurt the public perception of your cause.

We have this very problem in the Linux community. MS and corporations dependent on the non OSS software community (and all the employees of each) have a lot to lose with OSS. And now they have money to defend themselves. So they buy astroturfers, and media spots, and "get the truth" lie sessions, to help paint OSS fans as "extreme communists." We cannot stop this, but we also must take note that everytime we use extreme language ("winblows suxors, every boxen should run Linux and Billy Goats should die poor" for example) it gives our enemies ways to distort our public image.

If we want MP3 to stop being the standard, we need to talk about how OGGs are cheaper. Win the age old battle of cost. And if it doesn't work, do it in a correct way so that our community has the credibility needed to maybe win the next battle.

Its the only reasonable way.