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owise1
March 8th, 2008, 06:11 AM
I work in a fairly large office (all MS PCs unfortunately) and am a regular advocate for Linux. The arrival of Vista made it a lot easier to get MS users to try Ubuntu. I have noticed an interesting effect. Those using MS as their operating system will very readily turn to piracy rather than use a free and open licence alternative.

For example the guy dwelling in the cubicle next to me bought a very nice HP laptop - top of the line - with Vista. For two weeks he has not stopped complaining about the vista. His main problem was with Office 2003. It would not behave at all well under Vista and was going to upgrade to Office 07. I suggested that he ditch Office for Ooo and Evolution so that he would not have to shell out for an upgrade. I also gave him a Ubuntu CD to try so that he could see the real potential of the laptop that he had (it would have flown - dual core, 2 Gig and a fast Nvidia card).

His solution was to pirate a copy of office 07. That really burned me up. Why commit a crime when a free and good product was available. I think that the open source community has a different mindset and does respect the efforts of others. I am I naive or do you also respect licences and intellectual property?

Dave

sloggerkhan
March 8th, 2008, 06:21 AM
Hey, that's the norm, as much as it sucks.

Ecclesia
March 8th, 2008, 06:29 AM
Honestly, I think that most people have very little respect for software licenses. I think that my respect has gone up since switching to Linux as I see what people are willing to do to make good software available.

Most people feel that they are buying the hardware because it's something that they hold in their hands. Software is too ambiguous. Most people have a hard time wrapping their mind around it. Plus, most people see M$ as a faceless company who isn't going to be hurt by a few disk copies.

One of the reasons (there were others that happened to be bigger however) that I made the switch to open source was how locked down I felt by software licenses and companies. I found it frustrating to wrestle with the software that I had legitimately purchased as I tried to move it to another machine, etc, etc.

I think that you'd really see people switch as soon as they are forced to pay for copies. The general complaint about how much Vista costs is part of this.

Personally, I'd like to see people really consider what they pay for and why and measure their purchases by their idealistic understanding of the way the world should work. This should be true for everything, not just software.

TransitMan
March 8th, 2008, 06:32 AM
No amount of talking or convincing your cubicle neighbor would bring him any closer to the OSS world.
He has chosen to embrace Windows by whatever means required, up to and including piracy. In the end, though he will have to make a choice as to whether or not to pay for that Office 2007 license or simply revert to Office 2003.
The Open Source community is of the mindset that programs and the like should be made available for all, preferably free, and not loaded with bloated and unsupportive code like a Windows program is.
I left the Windows world because I was tired of paying a corporation money for an OS that I felt was too much money to be asking for.
A lot of those who put a price on their products are looking at the bottom line and nothing more. They care nothing for the end user.

The Open Source community is not like that. The people who code and put forth a good and decent product look for nothing more than simple feedback, good or bad and a thank you for a job well done.

As for respect for the OSes that require licenses in one form or another, it depends upon the OS.

I have tried and in some cases succeeded in switching some folks to Ubuntu, if merely for the sake that it does what they need and does not crash like a Windows OS when a corrupt file or viri/trojan invades.

But not everyone is going to be convinced to try an Open Source product or Operating System. They are too well trained in the Windows think of things and can't or won't see beyond the box. All we can do is try and move on.

This is what you must do with your cubicle neighbor, move on. He is of the Windows mindset, and right now he doesn't want to see beyond the box.

gashcr
March 8th, 2008, 06:34 AM
Actually, one of the main reasons I use Ubuntu is because I was tired of that feeling of... you know... doing something wrong. If you think MS products are overpriced... come to my country... they cost TWICE!! I could never afford for a MS product here, it's just blatant and ridiculous. Anyway, there were many other reasons you should know pretty well that helped me to make the switch. But I think you're right. People is just so afraid of leaving the familiarity of their MS products that could easily commit those kind of crimes. 95% of people I know own a computer with a pirated version of windows, and their respective programs... just don't ask me why... At least I feel comfortable knowing nobody will ever sue me for what I decided to install on my PC.

Mr. Picklesworth
March 8th, 2008, 06:42 AM
I just recently had the joy of helping a person who had bought a "Windows compatible" iMac via eBay. Turns out it was running 100% pirated software, and had Windows installed via the beta version of Boot Camp. Ultimately, Windows stopped working and I had to explain to her that she had been completely ripped off.

Yep, I'm with you, wise one. Piracy is hurting free software by turning peoples' interest away, since they can get the commercial software for the same price and convenience (with the slight cost of being self-serving bozos). I admit to have previously pirated some software, but I make a point of not doing so any more in support of the efforts that really are supposed to be free. They deserve credit for meeting that goal, and they support me as well in that they are truly meant to be open software.
(Sorry, that sentence went crazy. They is free software projects).

GashRC:
Oooh, Costa Rica! I love that country :) Went there just a few months ago, and I already want to go back.
Interesting you should mention that. I did notice an interesting number of computers running Linux...

gashcr
March 8th, 2008, 07:03 AM
Thankfully things are changing a bit around here, and I get to know more Ubuntuers day after day. But they are still minimal compared to those in the pirated side of the force :P lol. It makes me feel angry because I see a brilliant future in my country, specially in the education department by the use of FOSS, but people in the political spheres are just plainly ignorant.

I'm glad you liked my country, I wonder where did you go? Just to know :P. I hope you could make it here again soon. Everybody else is also invited, jaja, we could organize some kind of tropical ubuntu conference here... perhaps... FOSS and the possibilities for developing countries... sounds good... everyone's invited!, we could make the geekest party ever after the conference.

ShodanjoDM
March 8th, 2008, 07:27 AM
Why commit a crime when a free and good product was available. I think that the open source community has a different mindset and does respect the efforts of others. I am I naive or do you also respect licences and intellectual property?

Dave

It's an international symptoms, I guess... So many people are so ingrained with proprietary softwares that they seem to think that F/OSS are nothing.

I choose the free/open source software path mainly because I respect the two points you mentioned above.

MONODA
March 8th, 2008, 07:33 AM
Honestly, I think that most people have very little respect for software licenses. I think that my respect has gone up since switching to Linux as I see what people are willing to do to make good software available.
i feel the same way. I respect all lincenses even if I dont agree with them(if i dont i dont use the product). I dont own any pirated content on my pc all my music and videos were legally abtained.

SZF2001
March 8th, 2008, 07:38 AM
Don't - Don't - Don't - Don't Copy That Floppy! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729)

Hallvor
March 8th, 2008, 08:37 AM
[...] but people in the political spheres are just plainly ignorant.


It is like that in just about every country in the world.

zcal
March 8th, 2008, 02:17 PM
Why commit a crime when a free and good product was available.

This article (http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free) may interest you. Gutteridge makes some pretty compelling arguments about software piracy.


Don't - Don't - Don't - Don't Copy That Floppy!

Sometimes I really miss the '90s.

BigSilly
March 8th, 2008, 02:42 PM
It wouldn't be too bad if Microsoft had any respect for the desktop home user. Firstly the cost of Windows to the home user is astronomical. I can understand businesses paying more for support, but for home users to have to pay such huge amounts for a license is disgraceful. It has to be activated in a certain way, and you're not allowed to perform clean installs more than a couple of times, otherwise the Mother Brain finds out and locks you out of your own PC. Cue phone calls to Microsoft in order to prove your innocence. At 200+ it's a poor deal imho, especially when you then have to consider that really, you get nothing in the box with any Windows OS like you would with Linux. So it's another spending spree in order to stock up on disc burning and defragging utils, anti virus products, and various other expensive bits and bobs.

So it's somewhat inevitable that many will turn to piracy if they want to use Windows. But really, if it priced fairly in the first place for the home user - say 40-50, it wouldn't even be an issue. When WGA attacked my PC, I had no idea that I had an illegal version installed. My first thought was to try and get a legal copy, but for 200? Not a chance Mr Gates. Over to Linux I go.

So my point is, it's OK to say people should have respect for licenses and that's true, but if companies didn't have so much contempt for their customers in the first place they wouldn't have to employ crazy anti-piracy techniques. There will always be those who want it free no matter what, but I think if the software was priced more fairly, they would be very much in the minority.

BigSilly
March 8th, 2008, 03:03 PM
This article (http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free) may interest you.

Your article puts it much better than I could ever have hoped. Thank you for posting that up. An excellent read.

GOROSSI
March 8th, 2008, 03:38 PM
I personally have only ever used pirated software out of necessity as when doing my A Levels I needed Microsoft Access so I installed Office 2003 beta on my machine for the duration of the course then dumped it for OO.Org

One thing about the beta was that is wasn't picked up By WGA under XP but obviously wouldn't update.
When I got a new PC with vista on I tried to install it just out of curiosity and it was picked up as a beta and was redirected by windows update to the office site to buy a license as the beta had expired!

Otherwise the vast majority I downloaded legally or bought such as Norton.
Before I got Broadband I used to get a 3.99 computer mag on occasion with DVD which pretty much covered my software needs thats where I found the GIMP and Firefox or Firebird as it was known then.

Ecclesia
March 8th, 2008, 06:04 PM
I just read the posted article about Windows being "free" for so many people. I think that the biggest issue is that it comes with the computer and it's difficult for the average user to buy a computer without the windows license. Thus they think it's free (that's more prevalent than people getting it from a friend with a disk - IMHO) Can you imagine what would happen if they made a law saying that you should be given the option of buying hardware without software licenses? How much does each Windows license cost each consumer?

I know that it's slightly cheaper to buy a Dell with Linux, but it's difficult to do direct comparisons because you can't select it as a standard operating system choice (i.e. it's like selecting an entirely different model) it looked like they cost about the same - I configured the same computer using the Dell site just now and there's a $50 difference... but at first it doesn't look like it because there's a video card upgrade from integrated on the Ubuntu machine. So at first glance, it looks like Vista is free.

sajro
March 8th, 2008, 06:06 PM
Hey, that's the norm, as much as it sucks.

Isn't it so funny though? I discovered OSS early on when I had Windows and piracy rarely ever came to mind. However it seems half the Windows users I know have pirated Office, Photoshop, etc. I just laugh and say "Hope you don't get caught! I'll be over here with legal software." Now, media is a different story...I don't respect certain types of copywrong.

FranMichaels
March 8th, 2008, 06:43 PM
There would be a lot more Linux users if MS could actually stop unlicensed copying of its software. How many of these people would go out and buy a copy of Windows and Office? How much would that add up to retail wise? $189 + $500?
Not to mention Adobe Photoshop, where i went to school everyone seemed to have it and somehow the GIMP was never enough for them... + $600. How about DVD burning software, hmm...
I guess it's just natural to want to share, especially since you can make copies cheaply and essentially infinitely. At least Free Software grants that as a right. :popcorn:

Ecclesia
March 8th, 2008, 07:15 PM
The real shame here is who often ends up paying lots of money for licenses. I work for a church - most churches aren't keen on using pirated software (that's a good thing) but licenses are so expensive that it makes upgrading a really expensive proposition (add to that the number of companies that charge an arm and a leg to service church specific needs - there are a lot of churches being taken advantage of).

emshains
March 8th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Well in my country, only some offices have legal copies of any programs. If the OS didnt came with the computer when you bought it, then it wont be legal, people here dont give a sh&t about licenses, well some do but still. In my central market i can buy only pirated cds. Only now my goverment starts doing something.

But there is no one to stop you from doing it here. Its like im not going to pay for a thing i can download from the internet for free....

And my country isnt the only one, there are a lot more like these...

FranMichaels
March 8th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Well in my country, only some offices have legal copies of any programs. If the OS didnt came with the computer when you bought it, then it wont be legal, people here dont give a sh&t about licenses, well some do but still. In my central market i can buy only pirated cds. Only now my goverment starts doing something.

But there is no one to stop you from doing it here. Its like im not going to pay for a thing i can download from the internet for free....

And my country isnt the only one, there are a lot more like these...

My issue with it, is that it is perpetuating Windows use... :lolflag:
Many Windows users are non-customers, and many would remain non-customers, especially if they can't afford the exorbitant pricing.

To top it off, MS makes deals with OEMs, for example in China, so that the box includes Windows, to prevent "piracy" (argghh maties, it's not murder and pillaging, but copying sotware be equivalent! Ye scurvy scalawags!) The side effect being they won't sell a machine without Windows...

Whatever country you live in, when MS or some representative comes down on you, like that teacher in Russia, one has to make a choice. I rather just use Free Software now. The more users the better the software. Whether it be more developement, more bug reports, or just a bigger user base. It would also cut down on spam thanks to all those botted win boxes...