up against vista

[irish rebel]

Guys I have been in IT for the past 12 years, I have been playing with linux for the past 6 or 7 years. My house has been windows free for the past 4 years and believe me when you have 4 kids all at game playing age it has not been easy. Having said that my kids have played games some native linux , some ported and many with wine and cedega.
version 6.0x of ubuntu will be released at approx the same time as MS vista what does it have to do in order to take a share of the desktop? Ubuntu to me right now is awesome I have used it exclusivly for the past 6 months I love its ease of use and yet it has typical complexity so I have been sold! We as users have a duty to give our input and we in the linux community are being a chance never before given to us by MS ineptitude and sloppiness , I think ubuntu should work with some of the key apps
and develope guis that can look attractive have repositories of legal codecs and files
that customers can pay for if they choose.
Applications such as xine,mplayer ect should look great in order to make windows users want to try it.Nero has a Linux version Ubuntu should work a deal with Nero to have pre installed a 30 day version and if the user wants to sign up for it ubuntu would in turn get a small percentage of the proceeds. Open Office is a great product but its incredibly slow to start as opposed to MS Office it needs to more integrated or tuned with ubuntu.
Ubuntu should start a multimedia edition using freevo or myth that people building systems for Home Entertainment would have a choice when building these systems.
On the server front Linux in general has been doing great, I myself have over 30 servers where I work that I manage but if Ubuntu came out with a server version unto itself I honestly believe that ubuntu could capture not only a larger segmant of the linux market but also a piece of the PIE.

[ygarl]

Perhaps a version with a Multimedia kernel and Ardour, etc installed for people to use when recording music/video as well a la Dyne:bolic. I've tried Agnula and it just does not work anywhere NEAR as well as Ubuntu.

[tseliot]

Guys I have been in IT for the past 12 years, I have been playing with linux for the past 6 or 7 years. My house has been windows free for the past 4 years and believe me when you have 4 kids all at game playing age it has not been easy. Having said that my kids have played games some native linux , some ported and many with wine and cedega.
version 6.0x of ubuntu will be released at approx the same time as MS vista what does it have to do in order to take a share of the desktop? Ubuntu to me right now is awesome I have used it exclusivly for the past 6 months I love its ease of use and yet it has typical complexity so I have been sold! We as users have a duty to give our input and we in the linux community are being a chance never before given to us by MS ineptitude and sloppiness , I think ubuntu should work with some of the key apps
and develope guis that can look attractive have repositories of legal codecs and files
that customers can pay for if they choose.
Applications such as xine,mplayer ect should look great in order to make windows users want to try it.Nero has a Linux version Ubuntu should work a deal with Nero to have pre installed a 30 day version and if the user wants to sign up for it ubuntu would in turn get a small percentage of the proceeds. Open Office is a great product but its incredibly slow to start as opposed to MS Office it needs to more integrated or tuned with ubuntu.
Ubuntu should start a multimedia edition using freevo or myth that people building systems for Home Entertainment would have a choice when building these systems.
On the server front Linux in general has been doing great, I myself have over 30 servers where I work that I manage but if Ubuntu came out with a server version unto itself I honestly believe that ubuntu could capture not only a larger segmant of the linux market but also a piece of the PIE.
Have a look at this thread: I think it has the right answer to your needs.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70349

[23meg]

Perhaps a version with a Multimedia kernel and Ardour, etc installed for people to use when recording music/video as well a la Dyne:bolic. I've tried Agnula and it just does not work anywhere NEAR as well as Ubuntu.
i agree; Agnula seems to be crawling when compared to Ubuntu, and it's almost unusable for daily computing. but there's already a project going on (though it seems stalled at the ideas stage) that aims to create a separate "Ubuntu Art Distro" with the features you mention. check out the subforum here (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=71).

but Agnula's low latency kernel has little to do with daily multimedia usage; its main aim is multimedia production, since it has realtime operation enabled. irish rebel must be paraphrasing Mark Shuttleworth's "Dapper will be up against Windows Vista so we should make it the best it can be" statement, and i must say i have very high hopes for it after seeing the present state of Breezy.

[jeremy]

I don't think that a pre-installed nerolinux is a good idea, firstly it good conflict with ubuntu's statement about free software, and secondly because K3b can be installed from the repos, and K3b is greatly superior to nerolinux.

[irish rebel]

what I am trying to say is that by ubuntus own admission the "Dapper Drake" will be up against windows vista my suggestions are simply ideas I think would make for us having a better shot at taking a swipe at MS next year. We have apps for everything unfortunately at this time because of patent laws ect legally we shouldnt be using them for us to be able to compete with MS [ i think ubuntu is in the best position of all the linux desktops distros] we have to have legality.And if that means we as users have to pay for certain things then I think for the most part we would.
For instance if real player had a GUI for its linux version that was as good or sexy as that which it has for its windows version and could play the same file formats as the MS version I think it would help us, also if distros such as ubuntu and others took open source apps and helped develope them such as grip and acid rip and made them fully functional with again I say it an attractive GUI it would make it easier to sell a windows user onto linux.
Nero is a leading CD/DVD BURING software developer, the simple fact that they took the inititive to devolope a resource for linux is great in its own right , now suppose the powers that be within ubuntu contact nero and say " look, we have a distro being released in Feb 06 and we'd like to include a demo version of nero free of charge with it , could we?" and then try to work a deal out that would be of benefit to nero and ubuntu . What does it do for us? its one application that every windows user knows and it will give them a sense of familiarity.
Ubuntu may very well get a small percentage of any sales generated and software developers would see a successful venture into the linux world and further encourage others to do so.

[bob_c_b]

I don't think that a pre-installed nerolinux is a good idea, firstly it good conflict with ubuntu's statement about free software, and secondly because K3b can be installed from the repos, and K3b is greatly superior to nerolinux.

Agreed, let's not bend the free software philosophy for a piece of software we arleady have a much better replacement for, K3B fits this bill and hopefully the Coaster project will get some legs so you have a choice. As it stands, K3B is more usable than Nero.

[fordfan753]

I don't think I agree with the idea of bundling proprietry software with Ubuntu and getting people to pay...(Linspire anyone?) Ubuntu is free (as in beer) and should remain that way, I think that bundling it with software that people have to pay for, or crappy trial versions that people will have to pay for to use past the 30 day mark is not a good thing for Ubuntu. I mean, we go from giving out CDs to anyone that asks, to making people pay a small fee just because we have proprietry stuff...it's not a good look. Plus...nothing would annoy the Debian devs more, Ubuntu still has strong ties with Debian remember. ;)
Yes, Dapper Drake will be up against Vista, and yes, it would be a great thing if we could lure across a whole heap of Windows users, but this isn't really neccesary for the existance of Ubuntu.
To quote Ian Murdock:
this kind of "Linux as product" mentality misses the entire point of Linux and the open-source development model that created it.
Source = http://beta.news.com.com/Reconsidering+Linux/2010-1071_3-5057321.html?tag=nl
Ian goes on to say
Linux is not a product. It is a process.
I totally agree with this, Linux should not be something that can be bought and sold, even if the money is just for proprietry stuff. This is what makes Linux different from other OS's. Thinking about it...it is nice to have heaps of people using Linux...but it isn't necessary. Sure, more bug reports and developers is great, but at what cost? Whilst other OS's need lots of people to pay and to use it so their company can make a giant sack of money, Linux doesn't, and luring across Windows users at the Vista release is a great idea, it is not paramount, and it is not worth poisoning a great distro to do it.
I agree with better UIs to an extent, but only as an option, the average Linux user does not need fancy GUIs, but would rather have more functionality and stability.

[irish rebel]

In order to install K3B on ubuntu , dont forget you are also installing a ton of KDE libraries!!
and also remember without software developers creating apps for linux we will always be a niche desktop with between 2 and 3 % of desktop market.
Yup I can imagine users coming over from a windows Xp desktop and looking at synaptic[ if they can figure that much out] and looking at the apps with names like ' cyrus21-imapd' or 'ffmpeg' or better yet ' faad' .
Look I am not saying that K3B is not good what I am saying is that every year we linux users look forward to the year of the linux desktop, for those of us who have used Linux for a while it is already here, but if we are serious about making ubuntu [or any distro] compete against MS vista next year as the ubuntu's leadership has stated then new users , from the realm of Windows should have the ability to install and buy products for their linux desktop .
Also with K3B if a distro or developer took it and created the ability to copy a DVD they under gnu licencing could in turn sell that product and thus an open source product for sale and someone makes money on it , which is how things should work .
Imagine if ubuntu had 200,000 downloads and if only 20,000 signed up for nero and nero gave a $2.00 cut to ubuntu thats $ 40,000 income that could pay for new research and some salary ect ect . Imagine if ubuntu had an installer for DOOM3 and UNreal Tournement and other games that had a linux port and you could download and install from ubuntus website onto your PC . What if the game developers seen how many linux downloads there were and seen a market to develope games for linux, what if ubuntu recieved a cut % for each game sold on its site.
Yes it commercializes the ubuntu distro to a point but the difference is it is still free , you have a choice of applications you can play Wesnoth or warcraft whatever you want. If you want to use K3B or nero you have the choice as indeed you do now , problem is a new user comes to ubuntu and wants nero will he figure out how to install it?

[23meg]

Yup I can imagine users coming over from a windows Xp desktop and looking at synaptic[ if they can figure that much out] and looking at the apps with names like ' cyrus21-imapd' or 'ffmpeg' or better yet ' faad' .

this is why distros do what's called "branding" of the gnu/gnome/kde tools. click Applications / Accessories; can you see "gedit" there? no, you see "Text Editor" instead. new users have to acknowledge the fact that they are not using "Windows plus $85 minus proprietary codecs" but a whole new OS, and in the meantime they shouldn't be intimidated too much either. for this to happen they don't have to see "familiar faces" though; when you sit in front of a Mac, do you look for windows explorer or the start button? you shouldn't in linux either, but a well thought out labeling scheme, plus user friendly installation methods (check this (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70386&highlight=ubuntu+packages+site) out, and this (http://klik.berlios.de) too; soon they'll be working together it seems), plus community help (which is excellent in ubuntu), plus good interface usability should make a newcomer feel at home pretty soon.


In order to install K3B on ubuntu , dont forget you are also installing a ton of KDE libraries!!

you can use Gnomebaker instead, which i think is equally as good for most tasks.


Also with K3B if a distro or developer took it and created the ability to copy a DVD they under gnu licencing could in turn sell that product and thus an open source product for sale and someone makes money on it , which is how things should work .

i don't really follow you here; how can they sell something under GNU licencing?


Imagine if ubuntu had 200,000 downloads and if only 20,000 signed up for nero and nero gave a $2.00 cut to ubuntu thats $ 40,000 income that could pay for new research and some salary ect ect . Imagine if ubuntu had an installer for DOOM3 and UNreal Tournement and other games that had a linux port and you could download and install from ubuntus website onto your PC . What if the game developers seen how many linux downloads there were and seen a market to develope games for linux, what if ubuntu recieved a cut % for each game sold on its site.

this is a workable business model but it's just not the one that Ubuntu is likely follow. just look at the Ubuntu philosophy, and read about Ubuntu's general stance towards debates on free/nonfree software on ubuntu.com, and read a few interviews of Mark Shuttleworth and you'll get the picture. it is doable, but Ubuntu isn't the one that will do it. if you strongly feel this kind of a business model should be adopted by distros you should perhaps concentrate your effort on making other distros accept it.


remember without software developers creating apps for linux we will always be a niche desktop with between 2 and 3 % of desktop market.

you mean proprietary, mainstream developers, right? i think we shouldn't be begging for their attention, and just concentrate on making linux as user friendly, stable and compatible as possible. once that happens, and we get enough of a user base, this is likely to happen by itself, but i highly doubt that they'll be able to compete with the open source software that will have been written by then.

[irish rebel]

ubuntus leadership supports making profits from open source, but as a add on service, they encourage other business to offer paid for support for ubuntu thats how linux companies make money , all I am saying is that as a add on business and keeping with the origional goals of ubuntu , you would offer add ons visa vi commercial apps nero , adobe[ if they ever come around] and games.
Everyone and their mother within the linux community agree that if gaming was easier in linux the user base would expand enormously , game makers dont port to linux because
1. they have no idea how many linux users buy their games
2. linux users have the reputation of not wanting to pay for anything.

My point was that since ubuntu right here in the forums encourages commercialization with its marketplace forum , why not have a section that a user could go download a game [ commercial] and pay for it , why not have cedega demo pre installed on ubuntu so that a new user from the windows world could play WOW or starcraft ect, these are not causing the software to be no longer free , these are ideas simply put that to me make sense.

[fordfan753]

Linux users have a reputation for not wanting to pay for stuff for a reason...most don't like paying for stuff. And this is exactly the reason why we should not pollute our open source environment with proprietry stuff.

[23meg]

why not have cedega demo pre installed on ubuntu so that a new user from the windows world could play WOW or starcraft ect, these are not causing the software to be no longer free

this is indeed causing the software to be no longer free. cedega isn't free software, and the whole notion of "demos" belongs to the proprietary software world and doesn't exist in free / open source software. plus consider the space such demos would take on the installation CD; my point was that Ubuntu just wants to deliver a stable core OS , plus a sensible selection of the bare essentials, in a localizable form and in equal free terms to everyone, and there's just no space (literally) for any proprietary bells and whistles. this is Ubuntu's (Shuttleworth's) mindset, and it is very very unlikely to change. other distros can do it, and chances are they can do quite good as well. but Ubuntu isn't likely to.

[joelito]

Maybe putting a cedega cvs build in multiverse :)

[bob_c_b]

Bottom line is there are already a number of distros that do what the OP is asking for, and they are only marginally (or many times) less succesful than Ubuntu. I think a lot of people confuse the goal of Linux to be a complete desktop replacment for Windows, but Linus himself has said he only wanted to make great software, with little concern for how popular it was.

Linux embodies much of what F/OSS is all about, and it has grown like mad in spite of the "commercial" software market. To include all this proprietary and trial edition junk in Ubuntu is to ignore the original goal, ignore the tenets of F/OSS and the hacker gift culture and introduce many issues I think people take too lightly. It's really not that hard to get basic media functions working and focussing on gamers is really counterproductive as long as the drivers for most gaming hardware remain "secret bits".

The real goal here is to add enough Linux users so that those who "own" the medi codecs see opening the source as the right and profitable thing to do. Now is not the time to waiver on F/OSS tenets and open standards.

[fordfan753]

Bottom line is there are already a number of distros that do what the OP is asking for, and they are only marginally (or many times) less succesful than Ubuntu. I think a lot of people confuse the goal of Linux to be a complete desktop replacment for Windows, but Linus himself has said he only wanted to make great software, with little concern for how popular it was.

Linux embodies much of what F/OSS is all about, and it has grown like mad in spite of the "commercial" software market. To include all this proprietary and trial edition junk in Ubuntu is to ignore the original goal, ignore the tenets of F/OSS and the hacker gift culture and introduce many issues I think people take too lightly. It's really not that hard to get basic media functions working and focussing on gamers is really counterproductive as long as the drivers for most gaming hardware remain "secret bits".

The real goal here is to add enough Linux users so that those who "own" the medi codecs see opening the source as the right and profitable thing to do. Now is not the time to waiver on F/OSS tenets and open standards.

100% agreed

[irish rebel]

Ubuntu 6.04(ish) will be special, because as a community we are going to
commit to supporting it for 3 years on the desktop, and 5 years on the
server. In Montreal (October 30-Nov 6, all hackers welcome, companies
send your developers, chip in and define it 'cos we all have to live
with it, details at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero etc) we will
be figuring out what changes are needed to the release process to ensure
we can deliver on that commitment. We're likely to want to be a bit more
conservative in the feature goals, and freeze a little longer.

It's 6.04 that will be up against Windows Vista, so let's make it a
zinger and give folks a real choice.

The 6.04 release will be the culmination of 2 years hard work, with
Warty, Hoary and Breezy having set the style and the pace. We want it to
represent the fruit of that labour - it brings to a close this first
major cycle of development for Ubuntu. It will be a release that people
can plan for, participate in and build solutions on top of. It will get
even more polish than we put into Breezy, so we think it deserves a name
that reflects that polish.
mark shuttleworth

Cedega is a commercial app yes , that uses wine , but it in turn financially supports the wine project and makes available its source for free as per the OSS .
The rest Of my point obviously has not gone across let me conclude by saying it like this.
1] The ubuntu would always be free , but remember Mr Shuttleworth himself made $ 575 mil from open source software,
2] having commercial apps available for linux is the only way that linux will ever move out of the current 2-3% market.
3] Gaming for Linux must be braught into the 21st century and the only way to encourage game developers to port to linux is by showing them what is in it for them.
I pay for some software now I use moneydance financial suite, I have tried nero and decided to buy it for $19.00 I still use K3B MOSTLY,
My kids play unreal tournement, Doom and I subscribe to cedega because son #1 plays warcraft,

[snowjunkie]

Agreed, let's not bend the free software philosophy for a piece of software we arleady have a much better replacement for, K3B fits this bill and hopefully the Coaster project will get some legs so you have a choice. As it stands, K3B is more usable than Nero.

I agree too... I've had my fill (from Windows) of 30 day evaluation nag screens... or click here for the pro version for only $299 extra... or download this new add-on pack for $29.99... etc. etc.

Keep evaluation s/w off ubuntu!

[23meg]

1] The ubuntu would always be free , but remember Mr Shuttleworth himself made $ 575 mil from open source software,

really? i'm not so sure, but if he has, perhaps he's had enough and doesn't want to make any more :)


2] having commercial apps available for linux is the only way that linux will ever move out of the current 2-3% market.

do we really feel the need to move linux beyond its estimated market share? i think this is the first question that needs to be asked (linux as product vs. linux as process). and second: if the answer is yes, what are we willing to compromise to make this real? i personally won't tolerate the compromise of a demo-filled OS where i'll immediately uninstall all proprietary demos after every install. this would be giving back the sensibility of linux and asking back for the windows stupidity of having to disable dozens of unneeded/nasty services and apps upon each install. i don't want to see clones of windows apps in Ubuntu, but original, and possibly more user friendly open source counterparts. i'm sure the majority of the user base would agree about this.


3] Gaming for Linux must be braught into the 21st century and the only way to encourage game developers to port to linux is by showing them what is in it for them.

i don't think you can "bring gaming into the 21st century" by bundling the demo of an emulator with a free open source OS. if you absolutely need to attract the gamer crowd (i must admit i don't understand why this is such a necessity) this is not the way to do it. i don't know what is, but this certainly isn't. because if you're a hardcore gamer and you want to use linux, and you've not been living under a stone where there's no internet connection for the last two years, you already know about cedega, and that you need to subscribe to it; you don't need your OS to advertise it to you.

[Kvark]

Imagine if ubuntu had 200,000 downloads and if only 20,000 signed up for nero and nero gave a $2.00 cut to ubuntu thats $ 40,000 income that could pay for new research and some salary ect ect .
Including demo versions in Ubuntu would make users feel like Ubuntu is called 'free' only because it is a collection of demos. I would for sure jump to another distro, maybe Mepis or Linspire. I can accept paying for software but I can not accept using a collection of crappy demo versions. It would be a lot better to just include Gnomebaker in Ubuntu and K3B in Kubuntu. Besides, $40k is only a 0.4% increase of Ubuntu's $10 million plus budget. That small cash addition would hardly be noticeable.

[fordfan753]

but remember Mr Shuttleworth himself made $ 575 mil from open source software,

Hmm...didn't he make all the money from selling his multimillion dollar company, Thawte?

[bob_c_b]

3] Gaming for Linux must be braught into the 21st century and the only way to encourage game developers to port to linux is by showing them what is in it for them.
I pay for some software now I use moneydance financial suite, I have tried nero and decided to buy it for $19.00 I still use K3B MOSTLY,
My kids play unreal tournement, Doom and I subscribe to cedega because son #1 plays warcraft,

Not worth the effort at this point, since the vast majority of gamers are okay with consoles that has already reduced the emphasis many devs put on the PC. Once again, the real key here is to gain enough users that devs consider doing native ports. The Mac has about the same desktop share as Linux but we see games ported for the Mac on a regular basis, no reason Linux gamers can't garner the same attention.

Personally, I refuse to use Cedega or Wine and only reward devs who provide native clients or ports. Using Cedega puts the load back on the community instead of on the game devs who make a buck regardless of which platform you play on. I love Call of Duty (played he demo) but have emailed Infinity Ward and all related parties, no native Linux client; no love from my wallet. Blizzard runs the WoW server farm on Linux, has a Mac client (FreeBSD under the hood) but doesn't provide a Linux client? Why is this okay? If you take you should give back.

In regards to the 2-3% marketshare on the desktop, this has bee enough to keep Apple alive for decades and Linux has a lot of benefits Apple doesn't.

Take a stand people, you might have to sacrifice some entertainment but let those who want your money know why they aren't getting it.

[irish rebel]

The company he sold was a business that made money from open source software I believe.
I am not advocating the abandonment of free software or the creation of a distro with demo's .What I am advocating is the reality check which the linux community must at some point do. I accept that software should be free , equally I accept that if I want to buy something so to should I be able.
To me there is nothing wrong with making money from OSS as long as I abide by the OSS rules.Cedega does abide by the OSS .The demo software I talk of is aimed mostly at newbies that will be crossing over from windows if as Mr. Shuttleworth says we are up against MSVista .
What is wrong with going to a website and downloading and installing a game ?
if a 15 year old kid wants to try linux but needs his or her games why not at least do it from a linux site so that the porters of games can see what kind of market there is for linux games and applications.
I love using free software and appreciate what goes into making it, but there are people who would like to see photoshop ported to linux and macromedia products, what harm is there in that.

[bob_c_b]

but there are people who would like to see photoshop ported to linux and macromedia products, what harm is there in that.

No harm at all, but stuff like Wine and Cedega don't really coax vendors to provide native ports and that is what we should demand. The Mac gets native ports with the same marketshare.

As to your "realty check" statement, I think you have to completely ignore the culture and heritage that made Linux possible to take your path on this. Linux has done quite well without the things you are suggesting and the software solutions for desktop users just keep getting better.

[irish rebel]

Yes linux has done well , particularly on the server side. But it's on the desktop side that most of us find ourselves , and yes linux and OSS developers have come up with great and innovative solutions to our quest for software, I can quite easily rip a dvd , rip a cd , type a document ,read a pdf file do a spreadsheet send and recieve email browse the internet listen to internet radio and watch movies ect ect all using free software, therein lies our problem.We unix/linux users pride ourselves in our supposingly open mindedness our innovation, but what frightens me a little is that yes as we are making massive advances in the desktop we are withdrawing into a shell , We have major battles in front of us for the next few years namely patent wars which will undoubtedly mean a shift away from software that we currently use . Oh linux will exist and do quite well within its share of the market , and companies will make money supporting linux in the marketplace. But the ordinary joe soap will lose out because there wont be anyway to legally watch a dvd on our pc's there wont be anyway to rip a cd legally there wont be anyway to copy our dvd's , Look we all know its coming to that remember the golden rule' whoever has the gold makes the rules'

[fordfan753]

But the ordinary joe soap will lose out because there wont be anyway to legally watch a dvd on our pc's there wont be anyway to rip a cd legally there wont be anyway to copy our dvd's , Look we all know its coming to that remember the golden rule' whoever has the gold makes the rules'

And paying money for software when we already have free alternatives helps us how?

[irish rebel]

As I said before I am not advocating the abandonment of free software , However take for example due to patent laws in The USA I cannot legally download libdvdcss, and install so that mplayer or xine can play my dvd's yet we do it day after day . Now according to OSS rules you or I could take the source of Mplayer make a few changes include libdvdcss and sell it as a linux dvd player as long as we in turn put any software coding changes back to the source , the same applies with any OSS product that is where I think software will be going
Oh and by the way whoever does do the packaging with libdvdcss will have to pay the dvd people about $3.00 a copy .
The same is true of mp3 players and rippers , look Im not saying this is good , what I am saying that this is the world we live in.

[fordfan753]

As long as countries in Europe keep open to copyright the linux community will be able to use all this cool stuff. There has to be one place in the world where things are accepted, and that will be the distribution point for stuff like libdvdcss. I still love how piratebay can get away with distributing torrents, since in Sweden (I think), it's legal.

[bob_c_b]

The same is true of mp3 players and rippers , look Im not saying this is good , what I am saying that this is the world we live in.

I would rather try and change the world than just give in, giving money to support closed standards helps no one. There are plenty of distros that attempt to provide exactly what you want and Ubuntu has a pretty strong doctrine about now getting in to non-free software.

[nenotnom]

Has anything irish rebel written been based on facts? All I see are broad sweeping statements and personal opinions expressed rather poorly. In my opinion, this is just another FUD spewing troll.


I know this seems to be flamebait, but come on. The guy's post is three pages long and he hasn't come close to making a valid point yet.

[bob_c_b]

Has anything irish rebel written been based on facts? All I see are broad sweeping statements and personal opinions expressed rather poorly. In my opinion, this is just another FUD spewing troll.


I know this seems to be flamebait, but come on. The guy's post is three pages long and he hasn't come close to making a valid point yet.


We are kind of laid back around here and usually don't lash out on this level, it's kind of frowned upon. Irish has every right to express his views and the discussion has remained civil so far.

[nenotnom]

I am not intending to offend anyone, but I think I got a point.

Irish started out by expressing his own opinion, that's true. But after reading his replies it seems like he thinks that his opinion is the only opinion that matters. He has seemingly disregarded every attempt to explaing the F/OSS ideology because it doesn't match his idea of how the world revolves around his experience of software.

I merely intended to challenge him on this point.

[Brunellus]

please refer to aysiu's wintroll post stickied in the forum, and then chill.

[bob_c_b]

I am not intending to offend anyone, but I think I got a point.

Irish started out by expressing his own opinion, that's true. But after reading his replies it seems like he thinks that his opinion is the only opinion that matters. He has seemingly disregarded every attempt to explaing the F/OSS ideology because it doesn't match his idea of how the world revolves around his experience of software.

I merely intended to challenge him on this point.

And I agree with your point, but it's often better to walf softly and carry a big stick. Make your point without name calling so the thread doesn't descend into a flamefest.

[dcraven]

If we want to promote non-free software by preinstalling demos and ads throughout the default install, then I'm not exactly sure why we are doing this whole FOSS thing in the first place. If people want preinstalled spam, spyware, and demo software, I'd suggest they purchase their computer from Best Buy. That way they get a desktop half full of icons to crippled or time limited software and they get to enjoy nag screens and endless registrations and flashing system tray icons for the rest of their lives.

IMHO, this stuff should be left to the distrobutions that do it already to some degree like Xandros or Linspire. I don't feel too threatened by this given Debian/Ubuntu's commitment to Free software (note upper case F), but I'd be first to jump ship if things like this begin to take shape. These things were part of the reason I left that smell behind years ago. Let's focus on what we can do on our own. If something is missing, let's make a Free version of it. If something is patented or encumbered in any way, let's avoid it like the plague, but point those with different FOSS values to where they can get it if needed.

Cheers,
~djc

[irish rebel]

Look I have no clue as to what you mean by Broad sweeping comments, I am merely giving an opinion about linux in general and ubuntu in particular. As far as I am aware I havent said any mistruths , if you are referring to comments about repackaging OSS software and reselling itthat is fact and if you want proof look at linspires dvd player all it is is xine with libdvdcss they charge $5 for it of which Mike Robinson said in an interveiw that they have to pay the dvd people [whatever organization that is] .
Mark Shuttleworth did sell his company for $ 575 mil and his company was based on open source software . So where do you come off making idiotic statements that seem to refer to me as some sort of troublemaker?

[irish rebel]

Look in my initial post I was merely saying what hundreds of thousands of linux users have said before me , it would be easier to attract more linux users from windows if our software had nicer GUI'S and if more commercial apps were ported to linux , plain and simple thats what my origional post was about .Following that I expressed ideas which I thought would make it easier to convert users to linux , following some responces I can see that the majority of people who replied to my posts answered with good points and deep held beliefs.
As for Nenotnom he basically tried to call me a liar which I think that anything I have said is true, also my opinions are only mine I am not out shoving them down anyones throat, I have been a linux user for years and of ubuntu I have used it exclusevly for the past 4 -6 months and I love it.

[Brunellus]

Look in my initial post I was merely saying what hundreds of thousands of linux users have said before me , it would be easier to attract more linux users from windows if our software had nicer GUI'S and if more commercial apps were ported to linux , plain and simple thats what my origional post was about .Following that I expressed ideas which I thought would make it easier to convert users to linux , following some responces I can see that the majority of people who replied to my posts answered with good points and deep held beliefs.
As for Nenotnom he basically tried to call me a liar which I think that anything I have said is true, also my opinions are only mine I am not out shoving them down anyones throat, I have been a linux user for years and of ubuntu I have used it exclusevly for the past 4 -6 months and I love it.
Refer...one again...to aysiu's excellent "well-intentioned linux troll" essay.

If you really give a damn, e-mail the developers, send bug reports, or help out. Devs don't read this forum, and your continued persistence is wasted here.

[irish rebel]

Ahh so much for a peacefull open discussion , point taken and I will not bring up again.

[poofyhairguy]

We as users have a duty to give our input and we in the linux community are being a chance never before given to us by MS ineptitude and sloppiness , I think ubuntu should work with some of the key apps
and develope guis that can look attractive have repositories of legal codecs and files
that customers can pay for if they choose.
Applications such as xine,mplayer ect should look great in order to make windows users want to try it.

That will be the job of Impilinux (based on Ubuntu), not Ubuntu.

Good suggestions though.

[az]

Create a BOF on the UbuntuBelowZero BOF wiki page and then come to UbuntuBelowZero.

BOF is Birds of a Feather. A group of people who share the same goals.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs

[poofyhairguy]

I love using free software and appreciate what goes into making it, but there are people who would like to see photoshop ported to linux and macromedia products, what harm is there in that.

The only harm is the assumption that a few people wanting something will magically make it happen. We have no control over when/if these products are delivered- its up to adobe. Like with all third party apps.

[Zotova]

why not have cedega demo pre installed on ubuntu so that a new user from the windows world could play WOW or starcraft ect, these are not causing the software to be no longer free , these are ideas simply put that to me make sense.

But why do we need these demos pre-installed? When I had my first Windows computer it didn't come with nero, it didn't come with winamp etc. What I had to do was discover sites such as download.com softpedia etc and find software that way. Why isn't this realistic for linux? - if people want nero then they can simply go to a software site which supports linux (softpedia does) and download the demo of the program and then if they see fit purchase it.

I don't see the need for these demos to have to be available in synaptic. I don't know if it will change in vista but at the moment Windows doesn't even have a system setup where people can download programs like they can in Linux with apt-get. With windows you have discover the software first, go to the developers home page and then download and install the software. So for a user coming into Linux from windows I don't see why they'd find having to do that so shocking.

A lot of people like to criticise Linux for not having codecs etc there as soon as you install your distro. These people seem to forget though a lot of those codecs were also not pre-installed in windows – I remember having to download a k-lite codec pack within windows to support certain media I wanted to view – so why is it so shocking when you have to do this in Linux?

There is only one aspect of Linux which I think needs some major improving and that is installers. For some reason a lot of people seem to frown on then autopackage format and I have no idea why as to me it seems to be the way forward – it offers easy installation and it was something I was very happy to see when I first switched to ubuntu from xp. Of course now with a bit experience I'm happy installing debs, converting rpms and even compiling – but for your average Joe they want something like autopackage to do the work for them when they download their demo of nero.

Of course apt-get is a good solution but not everything is always in the database.

[poofyhairguy]

Has anything irish rebel written been based on facts? All I see are broad sweeping statements and personal opinions expressed rather poorly. In my opinion, this is just another FUD spewing troll.


I know this seems to be flamebait, but come on. The guy's post is three pages long and he hasn't come close to making a valid point yet.


Hey! Stop that! There is a good point that you just failed to read. Sorry if this new users does not quite understand our philosophy yet. that does not give you an excuse to be rude!

I'd rather have ten threads like this so the user can understand why we don't really care about competing with MS head on, rather than a single post like this that insults the user for learning this fact.

[poofyhairguy]

For some reason a lot of people seem to frown on then autopackage format and I have no idea why as to me it seems to be the way forward – it offers easy installation and it was something I was very happy to see when I first switched to ubuntu from xp. Of course now with a bit experience I'm happy installing debs, converting rpms and even compiling – but for your average Joe they want something like autopackage to do the work for them when they download their demo of nero.


the community doesn't frown on the idea. The community just remembers that only one way of distributing software has ever dealt with the chaos that is Linux (package managers with large repos) and that many more that tried to be more like autopackaged have failed along the way. We would love to see it work....but we know some of the things it needs to really work (such as desktop standards) are somethings that won't exist.

[Zotova]

the community doesn't frown on the idea. The community just remembers that only one way of distributing software has ever dealt with the chaos that is Linux (package managers with large repos) and that many more that tried to be more like autopackaged have failed along the way. We would love to see it work....but we know some of the things it needs to really work (such as desktop standards) are somethings that won't exist.

True the standards may not exist now but surely Ubuntu should be supporting autopackage more? (or a similar program)

The whole Ubuntu image is about ease of use and giving people a Linux distro which is for everyone and not just the geeks. This is what autopackage provided for me when I first started using Linux, ease of use and a simple installation. When I was getting the hang of things I didn't want to be making complex installations - I just wanted an idiot proof installer - which is what I personally feel the average Joe would want.

Whilst I agree package managers - for example apt-get do work wonders they can only do so for so much. For software dotted around the net which is not in apt-get database I personally feel that it should be in some form of installer (alongside the debs, rpms, source etc). That way the average Joe can install their demos of nero or whatever with ease - which is what Ubuntu is supposed to be about as far as I know, ease of use.

Now fair enough there may be problems with autopackage but surely those can be ironed out if enough people put their back into it. Or if not autopackage, maybe some form of application which installs debs automatically, when you download the deb instead of having to open up terminal and type dpkg -i etc you could simply double click on the deb and hey presto the work is done for you.

I won't go into detail with this as I don't want to make my post too long, but why not also support some form of system where dependency's come with the deb file? For example if you are downloading a demo of nero and you need program x and y to run the software then x and y come within the package so they could be installed at the same time. That would get rid of the dependency errors and would make life a lot easier when the program you need isn't available via apt-get. I know there would be some file size problems with that idea but again if it was worked on I really believe it could be something great for Linux.

[Jussi Kukkonen]

...why not also support some form of system where dependency's come with the deb file? For example if you are downloading a demo of nero and you need program x and y to run the software then x and y come within the package so they could be installed at the same time. That would get rid of the dependency errors and would make life a lot easier when the program you need isn't available via apt-get. I know there would be some file size problems with that idea but again if it was worked on I really believe it could be something great for Linux.

Zotova, the apt-get system was built exactly because what you described did not work... Still, nothing prevents .deb builders from packaging everything under the sun into their .deb even nowadays -- most just choose not to.

[poofyhairguy]

True the standards may not exist now but surely Ubuntu should be supporting autopackage more? (or a similar program)

Mark recently hired the guy that is working on teh Smart package manager.



The whole Ubuntu image is about ease of use and giving people a Linux distro which is for everyone and not just the geeks. This is what autopackage provided for me when I first started using Linux, ease of use and a simple installation. When I was getting the hang of things I didn't want to be making complex installations - I just wanted an idiot proof installer - which is what I personally feel the average Joe would want.

The Breezy installer is super easy, way easier than synaptic.



Whilst I agree package managers - for example apt-get do work wonders they can only do so for so much. For software dotted around the net which is not in apt-get database I personally feel that it should be in some form of installer (alongside the debs, rpms, source etc). That way the average Joe can install their demos of nero or whatever with ease - which is what Ubuntu is supposed to be about as far as I know, ease of use.

The train of thought is that "average Joe" does not want to hunt for all his programs -it better to have them easily installed from one location. Only nerdier people wish to install the newest thing of the internet the day it comes out, and they have a way to do it in Linux (tar file). I don't 100% agree with this, but voicing this opinion explains why development has gone the direction it has.



Now fair enough there may be problems with autopackage but surely those can be ironed out if enough people put their back into it. Or if not autopackage, maybe some form of application which installs debs automatically, when you download the deb instead of having to open up terminal and type dpkg -i etc you could simply double click on the deb and hey presto the work is done for you.

That second part seems more likely.



I won't go into detail with this as I don't want to make my post too long, but why not also support some form of system where dependency's come with the deb file?

Most third party developers for Ubuntu do that. But it doesn't work cross distros. Why? Because unlike in OSX or Windowsland, you can't assume a distro has ANYTHING. If you are making a gnome program, you will have to wrap all of the exact gnoem libs you used to build it on to get it to work. A cross distro compatible binary in Linux could be huge. Not the best solution.

But seperate packages for each distro works. I think the best solution is jsut for one distro to get way more popular than the rest, then the problem goes away.

[jeremy]

2] having commercial apps available for linux is the only way that linux will ever move out of the current 2-3% market.
Can you justify this statement?

[Zotova]

Mark recently hired the guy that is working on teh Smart package manager.

Thanks for the reply and sorry for some of my ignorance when it comes to linux and its past as I am rather new to the world of linux.


The train of thought is that "average Joe" does not want to hunt for all his programs -it better to have them easily installed from one location. Only nerdier people wish to install the newest thing of the internet the day it comes out, and they have a way to do it in Linux (tar file). I don't 100% agree with this, but voicing this opinion explains why development has gone the direction it has.

I agree with you that the average Joe would find a system like apt-get a lot easier than the hunting for software like they have to do in Windows. But the problem I find with apt-get is that it is slow to be updated. I disagree when you say only nerdier people wish to have the newest thing the day it comes out – I personally think it would be the less techy minded people who would also want this. For example – Thunderbird 1.07 is now out which fixes security issues (fair enough the issues may not be major issues) – but 1.07 is still not available via apt-get to my knowledge and surely the average Joe by this point would now be worrying is my system in danger, could I be attacked etc

Maybe a better example than Thunderbird is gaim – to my knowledge 1.1.4 is STILL only available via apt-get. On the gaim website 1.40 has been and gone and 1.50 is now available for download. Now why is a popular application like gaim not being updated in apt-get? A lot seem to be saying wait till Breezy, it will be in Breezy but again there is the issue of security fixes which are in 1.50 and also the fact transfers simply do not work in 1.1.4 where they now do (for me) in 1.50. Now again surely the average Joe by this point would be very worried there system may be vulnerable because they are using 1.1.4.

That is why I feel some sort of autopackage/installer is needed so people can download the up-to-date application which have security fixes in them. Either that or apt-get needs to be updated a lot faster and more applications need to be added – e.g. More games, maybe a special section with non-free software.

Also why not expand on the deb format. If for example an installer was created for deb files where you double click and the installation is done for you then why not link it in with apt-get more than it currently is. When the installer basically does the dpkg -i xxx.deb it can then search the apt-get database for any dependencies (which as far as I know it doesn't do now, you have to manually install them then install the deb file - sorry if I'm wrong on that point). Plus if apt-get was expanded then the vast amount of dependencies would be available, so in a sense the deb format could become a form of installer and dependencies wouldn't have to be packed inside the deb file.

[poofyhairguy]

Thanks for the reply and sorry for some of my ignorance when it comes to linux and its past as I am rather new to the world of linux.
I agree with you that the average Joe would find a system like apt-get a lot easier than the hunting for software like they have to do in Windows. But the problem I find with apt-get is that it is slow to be updated. I disagree when you say only nerdier people wish to have the newest thing the day it comes out – I personally think it would be the less techy minded people who would also want this. For example – Thunderbird 1.07 is now out which fixes security issues (fair enough the issues may not be major issues) – but 1.07 is still not available via apt-get to my knowledge and surely the average Joe by this point would now be worrying is my system in danger, could I be attacked etc
Maybe a better example than Thunderbird is gaim – to my knowledge 1.1.4 is STILL only available via apt-get. On the gaim website 1.40 has been and gone and 1.50 is now available for download. Now why is a popular application like gaim not being updated in apt-get?

Major security issues are backported by the Ubuntu team. So the whole "security" thing isn't the answer. The only good reason to want the new stuff is to get the new features. But those exact features is why Ubuntu does not put the newest software in the repos- new features can break a stable release. The devs don't want to spend any time on old releases besides security updates. For people that can't stand that (me kinda) backports exist. Backports don't come the day something it released (we aren't Gentoo, it takes time to make a good deb) but they come for all the major stuff.



A lot seem to be saying wait till Breezy, it will be in Breezy but again there is the issue of security fixes which are in 1.50 and also the fact transfers simply do not work in 1.1.4 where they now do (for me) in 1.50. Now again surely the average Joe by this point would be very worried there system may be vulnerable because they are using 1.1.4.

Thats why the upgrades are free.



That is why I feel some sort of autopackage/installer is needed so people can download the up-to-date application which have security fixes in them. Either that or apt-get needs to be updated a lot faster and more applications need to be added – e.g. More games, maybe a special section with non-free software.

It takes a while to make a good package- autopackage doesn't change this. It would help if it was the default for all distros instead of the tar file so things were released that way, but even if it was ready for that job today (its not, it needs at least another year of development to be any sort of standard) it would take a long time for that to be the norm. So the system we have is the best we can have.

As it is, there IS a section for non-free stuff (two in fact- muliverse and restricted) and every game that the Debian developers package is availible in the repos. Not everything is there, but thats life.



Also why not expand on the deb format. If for example an installer was created for deb files where you double click and the installation is done for you then why not link it in with apt-get more than it currently is. When the installer basically does the dpkg -i xxx.deb it can then search the apt-get database for any dependencies (which as far as I know it doesn't do now, you have to manually install them then install the deb file - sorry if I'm wrong on that point). Plus if apt-get was expanded then the vast amount of dependencies would be available, so in a sense the deb format could become a form of installer and dependencies wouldn't have to be packed inside the deb file.

That will happen lond before autopackage is a standard. Or smart packages. I hope that by Dapper we have a GUI way to install debs. I'm going to ask for it myself.

[irish rebel]

Yes I can justify my statement, whether we like it or not linux is competeing on the desktop against windows, look at any forum including the ubuntu forums people are subscribing to crossover office vmware and cedega , including myself ....my two oldest kids play windows games on cedega they also play wesnoth as well but warcraft is big amonst school kids . Every forum and review of any linux distro says the truth we need the adobes and quickens of this world to port to linux for it to become a major player. If for no other thing , desktop in the office it will blow windows away.

[mstlyevil]

Yes I can justify my statement, whether we like it or not linux is competeing on the desktop against windows, look at any forum including the ubuntu forums people are subscribing to crossover office vmware and cedega , including myself ....my two oldest kids play windows games on cedega they also play wesnoth as well but warcraft is big amonst school kids . Every forum and review of any linux distro says the truth we need the adodes and quickens of this world to port to linux for it to become a major player. If for no other thing , desktop in the office it will blow windows away.

I have a Linux version of Adobe Acrobat Reader installed right now.

[irish rebel]

You have adobe reaer , I am talking Adobe the suite ....photoshop,illustrator and pagemaker they do not run under linux although I have managed to get photoshot running in a quasi kinda way under xover office

[mstlyevil]

I assume adobe will port those apps to linux eventually.

[bob_c_b]

Yes I can justify my statement, whether we like it or not linux is competeing on the desktop against windows, look at any forum including the ubuntu forums people are subscribing to crossover office vmware and cedega , including myself ....my two oldest kids play windows games on cedega they also play wesnoth as well but warcraft is big amonst school kids . Every forum and review of any linux distro says the truth we need the adobes and quickens of this world to port to linux for it to become a major player. If for no other thing , desktop in the office it will blow windows away.

We do not need more proprietary software and license schemes, we need more companies to embrace open standards and open source. Products like Crossover Office, Cedega and even Wine give developers an easy out instead of properly supporting Linux and F/OSS. Vote with your dollars and use OSS alternatives. As for games, there are plenty of alternatives to playing games on the PC, and don't mention anything from Blizzard, they run the whole WoW server farm on Linux but give nothing back in the form of a Linux client.

Adobe and Intuit are two of the biggest companies out there supporting product activation and DRM, leave that for the Windows world. If the price of supposedly competing with Windows (which, again, even Linus himself says is not the goal of Linux) is to sacrifice the freedoms and tenets that F/OSS is built on then I say keep the shrinkwrap software.

[Omnios]

This is my point of view Ubunti is a bit more rough and much more rugged (reinstalls I realy needed in 6 month= 0) more comparable to how win98 was and im not saying old. What im getting at is Xp and probably Vista tryed to do everything for you in a manner that you would have a hell of a time tryeing to mod. This is not so in Ubuntu, you can do things that would almost be impossible in other OS. I read a lot of win config files etc and could not make heads or tails or them I opened my first Linux config and figured out exacly what was going on. It may be a tecki os in a way but much friendlier friendlier towards them. Im not exactly a tecki by the way.

Anyways by the time bloated Vista is finaly realeased there will be newer Ubuntu Kubuntu versions better software versions and greater all around support, which may already in the works.

So ill sit here standing strong learning and waiting to see what comes out next.