THE UBUNTU OF THE FUTURE [booming 1950s scifi voice]

[willz06jw]

Why doesn't the Ubuntu of the future build onto wine. If it ran Windows games "Issue #1" would be almost solved ("Almost" meaning that businesses wouldn't switch over unless it also ran Microsoft Office).

THIS is the main reason average users don't use Ubuntu now...Ubuntu's interface is already better than Vista.

Will

[Het Irv]

I think the main reason Ubuntu doesn't build into wine is because that would make Ubuntu more and more a "Windows Clone". I enjoy Ubuntu because there is a very distinct line between Windows and Linux. Wine is a nice idea, but it still needs alot of work.
The other big reason is the Open Source idea that a program/developer should focus on doing one thing very good and let others do their think very good. This helps quality in a big way. Look at Microsoft, they are trying to run every computer in the world and are succeding only because they were first. The only thing that Microsoft has that works is the X-box, and that is because they let it do it's own thing as long as its making the parent company money.

Sorry about the rant, it didn't think I had that much so say on the topic. Also Threads like this should be posted in the Cafe. No big deal, just FYI.

[PmDematagoda]

This thread has been moved to the Community Cafe.

[FuturePilot]

Because if Ubuntu would build on Wine then it would give the impression that Ubuntu isn't ready for desktop

[happysmileman]

Ubuntu isn't a Windows clone.

[stuartwood89]

If it ran Windows programs by default, then surely Micro$oft will come down on the Ubuntu developers like a tone of bricks. Correct me if I'm wrong :)

[forestpixie]

Ubuntu isn't a Windows clone. - thankfully

and of course because everyone here is so helpful to everyone else - it would swiftly turn into a windows forum :(

[mech7]

THIS is the main reason average users don't use Ubuntu now...Ubuntu's interface is already better than Vista.

Will

Umm nope ubuntu's interface is still very rough..

[happysmileman]

TO elaborate on my "Not a windows clone" post, I'm not saying it would be a bad idea inherently to support Windows applications, but it would definitely strenghten the belief that developer only need to make programs for Windows. And they wouldn't make Linux programs at all, no matter how popular Linux got, if there was a chance they could run in Wine, which would now be part of Ubuntu

[Silenus]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ubuntu the African word for "I used to use windows, but then I tried debian and couldn't configure it"?
Ubuntu is heading in the same path as windows by including compiz and desktop effects, who really needs them. And if they fed into wine maybe if they fed into wine or into helping any other program than ubuntu users would be useful for something other than desktop themes.

[forrestcupp]

That's what ReactOS is for.


This thread has been moved to the Community Cafe.
Where it may soon be moved again to the Recurring Discussions section.

[Het Irv]

@HappySmileMan: You still will have the copyright infringement problem, whether it is infringement or not

@meck7: True, Ubuntu is rough in some places, but I would rather have a working computer than a flawed and crashing hunk of aluminum.

[Mike V]

The only thing that Microsoft has that works is the X-box, and that is because they let it do it's own thing as long as its making the parent company money.

sorry to tell you, but in fact M$ is losing money with that thing, A year has passed since launch and they still cant make money from x360, but they don't care because unfortunately they have plenty of money to support it hoping for a share in the VG market in the future.

[willz06jw]

The reason I think Ubuntu's interface is better than Vista's is because it doesn't ask twice everytime you move a folder, file, menu item, etc.

I know it is hard to let go of trying to influence game makers to use Linux as a platform, but it just isn't going to happen until Linux has a market share of at least 5-10% and the companies start believing that Linux users are willing to pay for software.

I don't think that giving Ubuntu to ability to also use Windows programs and games is cloning Windows --- doing this only adds the primary capability that Ubuntu lacks to succeed in its #1 objective to take down Windows. Remember, IBM OS/2 Warp was far better than Windows 95 but it lost because it wasn't the standard for program developers. IBM came up with DOS first, Apple came up with the personal visual operating system, Microsoft developed the best standards.

STEAL the Windows standards by adding the capability to use their programs
KEEP the Ubuntu OS and all of the great work that goes into their many unique open source programs

Note: Windows can't go after Linux legally for running Windows programs since the programming is entirely different (no matter what Bill says).

It's the only way to move from the fringe

Will

[Het Irv]

sorry to tell you, but in fact M$ is losing money with that thing, A year has passed since launch and they still cant make money from x360, but they don't care because unfortunately they have plenty of money to support it hoping for a share in the VG market in the future.
It's showing that it will have a strong future. The only real compition it had was the PS3 and that flopped horribly. Sony might still save it, but I don't think they can make up any ground that they lost to the 360.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Umm nope ubuntu's interface is still very rough..

Sorry about the blatant plug here, but I beg to differ. (http://dylanmccall.blogspot.com/2008/01/rant-on-windowss-lack-of-user.html)

[original_jamingrit]

This is quickly turning into another ubuntu vs. windows thread. You're better off not wasting your time.

The Ubuntu people do not care about wine, but they make it easy to install. If this is about wine compatibility, the wine people are the ones to talk to. I don't think many business would switch to free software to use msoffice, because I think you have to buy msoffice as well.

[the_darkside_986]

Well, Sabayon has Wine installed by default, but I don't think anyone is going to get in trouble, especially when each release of wine breaks a previously functioning program(s).

If people love closed-source software such as the stuff in the "Games for Windows(R)" isle, why don't they just keep using Windows? I've given up on those, after too much frustration. I mean, Oblivion for example, I would be more than happy to change its ridiculous scripting language to something cool like Lua, but without the source code, I cannot do that. And the game has severe performance problems, and needs optimization. However, I was able to mod the source code of Sauerbraten's cube engine (an open source FPS engine) to add some commands, including a command for running Lua scripts. Besides, SDL+OpenGL is better AND multiplatform, and I do not see why developers continue to use an API whose constants and function names appear to have been made up by a bunch of monkeys on meth hitting the keyboard very hard with their face (directx).

Well, Ubuntu doesn't have the "prettiest" interface but some people tell me it looks nicer on their laptop's LCD screen than Windows XP did. After I bought myself an LCD for my desktop, I have to say, I agree.

But anyway, I prefer to think of Wine as a "transitional" tool for running existing Windows apps during slow migration to open source tools written natively for *nix.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I severely disagree with the idea of having ubuntu being built on wine, it is simply illogical, insane and we would be chewed up by microsoft...
Look at all the legal clout microsoft has in the first place, what do we have to bog down Ubunbtu with endless eula's?
Really say this kind of crap at a apple forum while you are at it, if you want to have a system that is exactly like windows then use bloody windows.

[billgoldberg]

Why doesn't the Ubuntu of the future build onto wine. If it ran Windows games "Issue #1" would be almost solved ("Almost" meaning that businesses wouldn't switch over unless it also ran Microsoft Office).

THIS is the main reason average users don't use Ubuntu now...Ubuntu's interface is already better than Vista.

Will

Because wine in my opinion is only for people who can't let go of there windows software.

I have no need for it at all.

I miss photoshop sometimes and was temped to run it under wine (the guilt would have eaten me up on the inside :p), but gimp does the trick also.

[willz06jw]

If there is not a community supported compromise on closed source, Ubuntu will be fringe software forever (tell me if you think I am wrong). I think the guy/gal who said wine was transitional software is right.

But, there will not be a transition from Windows to Ubuntu unless this is done. No one can "let go" of Windows software, unless you don't play modern games --- or want to buy a console (which isn't for me). Even Cedega and projects like it can't do it like the Ubuntu team could.

Will

[SunnyRabbiera]

But what about CHOICE?
Should we all have to be forced to use windows products to satisfy you?
Look the linux way of thinking and the windows way of thinking are completely different, plus you ignore the terms and conditions in microsofts EULA, there are terms in it that many people disagree with.
Look install wine on your own time and let the rest of us decide if we want it or not.

[aysiu]

No one can "let go" of Windows software, unless you don't play modern games --- or want to buy a console (which isn't for me). According to that criteria, there are a lot of "no ones" out there. Not everyone needs Windows-only software or plays Windows-only games. All the gamers I know use consoles and are quite happy doing so.

Read more here:
Gaining Perspective on PC Gaming (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/gaining-perspective-on-pc-gaming/)

[willz06jw]

They have to buy a console if they want to get off of Windows and play modern games. That is my point. I don't want to force anything other than a mass-migration to Ubuntu
...I haven't heard one person that agrees with me, but I'm right. Oh well, lost cause I guess.

[SunnyRabbiera]

They have to buy a console if they want to get off of Windows and play modern games. That is my point. I don't want to force anything other than a mass-migration to Ubuntu
...I haven't heard one person that agrees with me, but I'm right. Oh well, lost cause I guess.

But your opinion is your own dude, look no one is really saying the idea istelf is bad, but you have to conder what might happen to ubuntu if it did as you suggested.

[willz06jw]

What bad would happen?

[aysiu]

What bad would happen?
Ubuntu would cease to be a Linux distribution and would be instead an open source Windows clone... i.e., it would be ReactOS. No matter how much funding and development went into Wine or ReactOS, it would never have 100% compatibility with Windows-only games, so gamers like you would pretty much be stuck using Windows anyway. The extent to which there was compatibility, it would offer little incentive to game companies to port to native Linux, as their excuse would be "ReactOSbuntu has almost full compatibility with Windows-only games anyway." People do not, contrary to what you might think, switch to Ubuntu primarily for games. Ubuntu seeks to be a Linux-based alternative to Windows, not a Windows-reversed-engineered open source Windows clone.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Ubuntu would cease to be a Linux distribution and would be instead an open source Windows clone... i.e., it would be ReactOS. No matter how much funding and development went into Wine or ReactOS, it would never have 100% compatibility with Windows-only games, so gamers like you would pretty much be stuck using Windows anyway. The extent to which there was compatibility, it would offer little incentive to game companies to port to native Linux, as their excuse would be "ReactOSbuntu has almost full compatibility with Windows-only games anyway." People do not, contrary to what you might think, switch to Ubuntu primarily for games. Ubuntu seeks to be a Linux-based alternative to Windows, not a Windows-reversed-engineered open source Windows clone.

Yes, thats how I feel...
Plus there is microsoft itself to worry about, they never played nice before and they wont play nice now...

[stevejesus]

You know... This conversation wouldn't even have started if there was an Office Suite as good as Microsoft Office. I don't care how much pride you have in OOo, or how well you know it. It DOES not compare. So let be be clear. I agree with everyone else that Windows is a rather poor excuse for an OS... but Microsoft office... it's SO GOOD! If you try and tell anyone otherwise then you are lying to them and to yourself. Now, OOo has it's place and is still good, but it is not a replacement, and likely NEVER will be.

Lastly, if everyone in this forum wrote a letter on the same day to EA, they would be all over this platform. Just show them where the money is.
DONT give your money to Cedega, give it to WINE.

Linux would make a great gaming platform, especially when you consider the hardware needed to run Vista. In all honesty, Linux is THE perfect gaming platform.

So go out and tell someone about it!

[SunnyRabbiera]

You know... This conversation wouldn't even have started if there was an Office Suite as good as Microsoft Office. I don't care how much pride you have in OOo, or how well you know it. It DOES not compare. So let be be clear. I agree with everyone else that Windows is a rather poor excuse for an OS... but Microsoft office... it's SO GOOD! If you try and tell anyone otherwise then you are lying to them and to yourself. Now, OOo has it's place and is still good, but it is not a replacement, and likely NEVER will be.

Lastly, if everyone in this forum wrote a letter on the same day to EA, they would be all over this platform. Just show them where the money is.
DONT give your money to Cedega, give it to WINE.

Linux would make a great gaming platform, especially when you consider the hardware needed to run Vista. In all honesty, Linux is THE perfect gaming platform.

So go out and tell someone about it!

Yeh but Open office doesnt cost $300 and have endless EULA's...
Besides koffice can whoop both of them in my opinion ;)

[aysiu]

Even though I agree that MS Office is a better piece of software for power users; for most people's "office" needs, OpenOffice is just fine.

[tashmooclam]

The Ubuntu of the future will be like gOS, pre-installed on laptops and boxes and ready to do everything most people ever do on a computer. Your average user is pretty unaware of the possibilities, but if he/she sees the stuff in Walmart, it will gain more acceptance. The people who like more bells and whistles can get an Apple. Eventually, they'll have Ubuntu where the "missing parts" will be installed by clicking ONE BUTTON.

[stevejesus]

Koffice REFUSES to open/render a basic budget analsys spreadsheet at work.
OOo can open it just as well as MSoffice can. But, if I try and make any advanced modifications and save as an .xls, its a now go. If I try and do that with koffice, its breaks the entire formatting of the sheets.
I always used to root for Koffice, as I was a KDE user over 3 years ago. But I can tell you for sure... Koffice misses the mark... way off.

[stevejesus]

I really like the idea of gOS. However... this is the problem I foresee for users. Internet. That poor gOS user is gonna try and switch internet providers and the provider is gonna hand tham a modem and a CD. What the eff are they gonna do with that CD?
I have had AT&T twice now in 2 different states (they wont let you transfer accounts), and I have to lie and tell them I am on Windows and my Interent Explorer wont work so that they can set it up for me. The one time I told them I use Linux exclusively, they said that they wouldn't help me. Same thing with Comcast...

[stevejesus]

And why am I not getting any more beans DANGIT!

[billgoldberg]

I really like the idea of gOS. However... this is the problem I foresee for users. Internet. That poor gOS user is gonna try and switch internet providers and the provider is gonna hand tham a modem and a CD. What the eff are they gonna do with that CD?
I have had AT&T twice now in 2 different states (they wont let you transfer accounts), and I have to lie and tell them I am on Windows and my Interent Explorer wont work so that they can set it up for me. The one time I told them I use Linux exclusively, they said that they wouldn't help me. Same thing with Comcast...

Really, they wouldn't help?

If my isp wouldn't help me because I use linux, I would change asap and since they won't help me I would be able to get out of the contract without any extra costs.

[NightwishFan]

This is the Community Cafe you do not gain any beans by posting here.

Cheers!

edit: mwahahah i win :)

[billgoldberg]

And why am I not getting any more beans DANGIT!

you don't get beans in the cafe and the backyard.

[-grubby]

And why am I not getting any more beans DANGIT!

you only get beans in the support categories

[p_quarles]

Really, they wouldn't help?

If my isp wouldn't help me because I use linux, I would change asap and since they won't help me I would be able to get out of the contract without any extra costs.
Kind of tough when your choices are between two providers who wont "support" Linux. Yes, it's ridiculous (there is nothing OS-specific about what any normal ISP does), but so are monopolies.

[%hMa@?b<C]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ubuntu the African word for "I used to use windows, but then I tried debian and couldn't configure it"?
Ubuntu is heading in the same path as windows by including compiz and desktop effects, who really needs them. And if they fed into wine maybe if they fed into wine or into helping any other program than ubuntu users would be useful for something other than desktop themes.

I used to agree with you there, but I have been running debian on my laptop for a while now, and I find it just as easy to use/configure as ubuntu.

[willz06jw]

Okay, so now the question should be how to get more market share for Ubuntu -- so the software developers make a profit when they make a closed source program for Ubuntu (If they made a game/program now and it was in Best Buy they wouldn't make a profit):

--I think we agree that the office product needs to be better to advance Ubuntu--

A: Get OOO or KOffice up to snuff (very slow and deflinitely cloning M Office)
or
B: Get at least Microsoft Office working in Ubuntu (better option as it they standard in offices and workplaces worldwide and would take less time)

Apple didn't have a big leap in marketshare until the Apple port of Microsoft Office.

I know this is counter-open source thinking, but it is pro-Ubuntu-transition thinking.

Willl

[stevejesus]

First, we need to be on the same page. MS Office was on the Mac before it was on the PC. Office on the Mac is what PUT Microsoft on the map for good.
You will only get OOo and Koffice up to snuff if you throw money at it. Also, you have to consider who is using OOo and Koffice. It's NOT me, or anyone who has any SERIOUS need for an office suite.
We need to find out what those hardcore users need and then push it out. If it's just a bunch of dweebs using it, then it will only ever do what a dweeb needs.

[stevejesus]

And lastly, Office can be made to run in wine. It is honestly the only way I can get my work done. I use Linux exclusively and I don't plan on that changing.

[p_quarles]

First, we need to be on the same page. MS Office was on the Mac before it was on the PC. Office on the Mac is what PUT Microsoft on the map for good.
That's kind of half-true. Office was released first for the Mac, but Word and Excel were already established products, and Microsoft was already "on the map" prior to 1989.

[stevejesus]

That's kind of half-true. Office was released first for the Mac, but Word and Excel were already established products, and Microsoft was already "on the map" prior to 1989.

It's all just a matter of perception..

[r4ik]

To be honest i have not read the whole thread.
Anyway my two cents.
If Ubuntu builds on wine i will leave right away.
No compromise for me.

[stevejesus]

You know, I am knee deeo in this thread now, and I still have no clue what you guys mean when you say "build on wine". Do you mean compile programs with winelib? Do you mean replacement key wares with Windows ones?

If you mean Ubuntu pushing bugfixes and new features upstream to Wine, then that's great. There should be no problem with that. It's a better alternative then you paying Cedega 15 bucks a month for the work of the free software community.
So tell me, what do you mean when you say "Build off of wine?"

[AsoSako]

Not to mention that Wine isn't all that awesome in reality... Personally I don't like it at all. I have to say that most of the things that you can run on it either don't run, run slow, run very buggy, or have some other such issue.. Even if some day it could run Windows software well I still wouldn't use it. The whole concept of being dependent on Microsoft (again) is really frustrating to me...

[NightwishFan]

I use wine basically to play some older games like Starcraft, or Morrowind, faster than they worked on Windows. I like it, however I would never have to rely on it. As more of an average person the only thing I would miss from windows is a good NLE. They will get better as time goes on and if I wanted to I could help even speed the development myself. Not so with Windows.

[stevejesus]

I have to disagree completely. Office 2003 runs prefect for what I use it for, and FAST! Also, I use a program called Noteworthy Composer that has worked for me in wine with NEVER an issue for the last 5 years.

[stevejesus]

Nle?

[AsoSako]

I said most not all... I have had some success with it when I did use it, however I have had some really horrible experiences with it as well (Which is much more frequent maybe 6:1) and I tend to try and find Linux alternatives most of the time now...

[NightwishFan]

Non linear editor, for video production. The simple ones were too simple and the more advanced ones are too buggy.

[stevejesus]

Well, it is important to find what works best. One program that I use SFark, a decommpression utility, has a Linux CLI version. I still run the Windows version in Wine. It is much easier to use.

[NightwishFan]

Command line is far more fun, in my opinion. :)

[akiratheoni]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ubuntu the African word for "I used to use windows, but then I tried debian and couldn't configure it"?
Ubuntu is heading in the same path as windows by including compiz and desktop effects, who really needs them. And if they fed into wine maybe if they fed into wine or into helping any other program than ubuntu users would be useful for something other than desktop themes.

What are you talking about? Compiz-Fusion is far ahead of Vista in terms of eye candy. So it would be Windows going down the same path as Linux.

As for your Ubuntu joke, it isn't funny at all.

[NightwishFan]

I believe it was a general demand for compiz that led it to be installed by default. That is not unique to Ubuntu.

[stevejesus]

Command line is far more fun, in my opinion.

ummm... I don't decompress files for fun. I don't know what your fetishes are, but that is not one of mine. I use whatever is fastest. Editing my fstab? xorg.conf? nano. update and install new packages? apt-get, not synaptic... but you justhave to use what is the most effective.

MS Office is better. Office 03 runs a bizillion times faster in wine than OOo's lard-*** does...

Noteworthy composer just works, without question. Rosegarden always works like crap.

Why would I use the command line if there is a more efficient GUI tool and vice-versa. And why would I use a Linux app if there is a better alternative that runs in Wine?

[NightwishFan]

I like the command line in my opinion. I think if you do not see the logic of my opinion try not to start a flame war about it. I use linux apps because I prefer use free linux software. My fetishes? What wasn't personally offensive in that statement. I would like an apology.

[SunnyRabbiera]

ummm... I don't decompress files for fun. I don't know what your fetishes are, but that is not one of mine. I use whatever is fastest. Editing my fstab? xorg.conf? nano. update and install new packages? apt-get, not synaptic... but you justhave to use what is the most effective.

MS Office is better. Office 03 runs a bizillion times faster in wine than OOo's lard-*** does...

Noteworthy composer just works, without question. Rosegarden always works like crap.

Why would I use the command line if there is a more efficient GUI tool and vice-versa. And why would I use a Linux app if there is a better alternative that runs in Wine?

The why dont you use windows if you like MS products better?

[k2t0f12d]

Why doesn't the Ubuntu of the future build onto wine. If it ran Windows games "Issue #1" would be almost solved ("Almost" meaning that businesses wouldn't switch over unless it also ran Microsoft Office).

THIS is the main reason average users don't use Ubuntu now...Ubuntu's interface is already better than Vista.

Will

Ubuntu and WINE may share developers, but they are separate projects. If you build and install the latest git of WINE, programs you install with WINE automatically are added to their own catagory in your apps menu (this is true for GNOME and KDE desktops on the current testing version of Debian).

Although it is nice whenever a game we like runs on GNU/Linux with WINE, it would be nicer still to have native ports of the game, and best of all more free software games.

[farruinn]

Because wine in my opinion is only for people who can't let go of there windows software.

I have no need for it at all.

Actually, some people actually *need* some Windows software to do their *work*. The company I work for makes extensive use of the Mikrotik RouterOS and the tools used to work with our network are, unfortunately, Windows only. These tools are *essential* and I would not like to imagine having to "get by" without them. Fortunately it seems Mikrotik is at least open to the idea of making Linux versions of these tools.

[farruinn]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ubuntu the African word for "I used to use windows, but then I tried debian and couldn't configure it"?

At the Ubuntu summit in Montreal I remember Jeff Waugh giving a similar definition along the lines of "...but I'm tired of compiling Gentoo". Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

[igknighted]

But what about CHOICE?
Should we all have to be forced to use windows products to satisfy you?
Look the linux way of thinking and the windows way of thinking are completely different, plus you ignore the terms and conditions in microsofts EULA, there are terms in it that many people disagree with.
Look install wine on your own time and let the rest of us decide if we want it or not.

The choice here is by what distribution you select. If there was a "winbuntu" if you will that included wine and other "transitional" stuff, that would be a fair compromise. But I don't see it happening.

The biggest problem I see with this whole idea is that Ubuntu doesn't really develop anything. I'd settle for them developing a true GUI configuration toolkit. Or working hard to add sane compositing to metacity rather than throw compiz on. Or simply adding solid code to upstream projects en mass, as other major distributions do. Ubuntu has so many other more deserving projects that it could donate time to that I would be very disappointed if they took up wine.

Finally, does anyone here really want their distribution to focus on wooing new users by spending major resources on tools for the new users and not the current ones? I doubt it! I would rather Ubuntu (or any linux distribution) work on becoming the best in its own right. Not making tools to help those who don't use it adapt better. Those are great, don't get me wrong... but should only take a tiny fraction of the distributions resources. Making a great product for the users you have should be the #1 priority.

@ the OP... gaming is not as big a deal as you and other gamers like to make it. Trust me. I love to game... bought crysis and CoD4 right when they came out and spend way more of my time than I should playing them (surprisingly cod4 more than crysis... back on topic). But I just suck it up and buy windows for that (haha, actually my school gives it to me for free via msdnaa... but I have purchased windows licenses before and likely will again). It's cheaper than a console after all, and lasts longer because it is upgradable.

You want to game on linux? Easy... convince game developers to come out with their games for linux. THEN convince linux users to buy them when they aren't open source. Good luck. Until linux users prove that they will buy commercial software, you are looking at the few FOSS options out there. And I'm not sure I see that happening any time soon.

Haha, this keeps getting longer... but for anyone interested, check out SAM Linux. It comes with wine installed, and (so far as I know) has a windows application repository. I was on the dev team there for a while before I had to step aside due to time commitments, but we worked quite a bit on securing distribution rights to various free-ware windows applications and packaging them up to install from a repository. It was a really neat idea, and we had some success too.

If you could take that same idea, and apply it to a store to purchase commercial software (linux commercial software is what I am referring to, but since there isn't much ATM you could try selling windows apps for wine install in order to prove the feasibility) then you could have hard numbers to show how popular it was, and then companies could be persuaded to release games and other software for linux (should they prove profitable). Yes, this is like CNR... but Linspire was a shady company and people saw that... make it community driven and truly open source and who knows. Sure the FSF and its minions will freak... but there's more to computing than free software.

Ok, I'm done for real now.

[Avis Phlox]

Actually, some people actually *need* some Windows software to do their *work*.

Hear hear! As I've been reading thru this thread I've been waiting for someone to mention this.

In my case, for work purposes I need PhotoShop, Illustrator, Flash and Dreamweaver (CS3 editions). I'm not familar with GIMP at all, but I need to work with PSD files, AI file, and FLA files when I work from home. If Wine can help run those apps natively, and flawlessly, on Linux then I would be ready to tell Windows where to stick it.

But I haven't seen any evidence that those apps mentioned above work so well when using Wine, so my alternative would be to use Ubuntu (or Linux Mint), install VirtualBox to make a simple vanilla installation of Windows XP to install and run PhotoShop, etc.

And I believe the person who started this thread may have meant to ask somewhere along these lines: "why isn't Wine built into Ubuntu instead of having it as a separate entity?" If that was the question, then I'd say "bad idea."

What's great about Ubuntu or any variant of Linux is that you can set things up the way you want. It's best to have an OS that's lite and fast, and if you want the bells and whistles, install Compiz. If you want Wine, go grab a bottle. \\:D/

Freedom of choice. Choice is good.

[NightwishFan]

It is not that windows edits these kinds of files. It is that programs that are made to run only on windows are the prime editors of choice.

[Avis Phlox]

Indeed, Nightwish. But until they run well on Linux, another alternative is OSX, and I'm ready to abandon Apple as well. I think it's silly to spend hundreds, even THOUSANDS of dollars for overpriced hardware and pay for every upgrade to OSX. I've done that only once, I don't want to make that same mistake again.

[ECPCLINUX]

IBM came up with DOS first,

Will

Well That's not quite the complete story. Please read the following link.

http://www.patersontech.com/Dos/Micronews/paterson04_10_98.htm

[EdThaSlayer]

Wine isn't really the way to go, it might be nice and all, but 10 years down the road, do you still want to be playing Games for Windows through Wine 2x or Games for Linux where everything runs out of the box with hardly, or very little configuration needed?

[ECPCLINUX]

Indeed, Nightwish. But until they run well on Linux, another alternative is OSX, and I'm ready to abandon Apple as well. I think it's silly to spend hundreds, even THOUSANDS of dollars for overpriced hardware and pay for every upgrade to OSX. I've done that only once, I don't want to make that same mistake again.

Amen to that!!!,lol Tired of the expensive software, updates, viruses, DRM, Blah, Blah, BLAH! Next MP3 player I buy will play Ogg Vorbis. Oh and I like Wine but to base the whole OS on Wine might make it susceptible to virus just like Windows. Of course I'm no expert:?, it just seems logical.

[stevejesus]

I like the command line in my opinion. I think if you do not see the logic of my opinion try not to start a flame war about it. I use linux apps because I prefer use free linux software. My fetishes? What wasn't personally offensive in that statement. I would like an apology.
Apology for what? All I was trying to say is that I use whatever is the MOST efficient. I have been using Linux for years, and I certainly PREFER to use free-software. Unfortunately, OOo doesn't cut it for me. I WANT to use it... but it is not advanced enough to fit in with my organization. Rosegarden? Never works right. Noteworthy Composer in WINE runs PERFECT, ever time. Not to mention I have been using this ware since 1998! I am a composer in my spare-time and this is an indisposable application.

Actually, some people actually *need* some Windows software to do their *work*. The company I work for makes extensive use of the Mikrotik RouterOS and the tools used to work with our network are, unfortunately, Windows only. These tools are *essential* and I would not like to imagine having to "get by" without them. Fortunately it seems Mikrotik is at least open to the idea of making Linux versions of these tools.
My intent is to get WORK done, not to fumble around in incomplete software because I am stubborn.
My comment was meant to be humorous... But I find it bewildering however that you would go out of your way to use the command-line because you think it's fun. I use the command-line quite-a-bit! I build custom packages that take advantage of my hardware that I can't find in the repos. I use nano as my text-editor, I update my wares and install or remove others on the command-line and always have. BUT, I can't find another way to be more clear on this... if there is a GUI app Win or Lin that gets the job done faster, I WILL use it. I won't hang myself on the command-line wasting my time just so that I can fulfill my superiority complex by doing this the most pretentious way possible...


The why dont you use windows if you like MS products better?

Because I LOVE Linux... It is better IMHO, and I use it exclusively, and have for years. I never said that I like MS Products better. I use 3 Windows apps; Noteworthy Composer is NOT a MS application, nor is SFark. I never said that I LIKE MS Office better... I just said that it is BETTER, and I HAVE to use it for work. OOo CAN NOT handle these types of things. Else, I would use it...

[igknighted]

I like the command line in my opinion. I think if you do not see the logic of my opinion try not to start a flame war about it. I use linux apps because I prefer use free linux software. My fetishes? What wasn't personally offensive in that statement. I would like an apology.

Wine itself isn't anti-free-software. If you used it to only run F/OSS windows apps then it shouldn't go against that ideal at all.

[NightwishFan]

This is not about my foss philosophy. I wish for you to apologize for your flame. Command line IS more efficient for ME. My FETISH is none of your concern and I would like for you to apologize for addressing it as such, which I found personally offensive. In fact I do not really mind, but just note that I do not wish to be spoken to like so. Especially in a public environment. Thank you for respecting my opinion.

[k2t0f12d]

NightwishFan may or may not be right about the CLI being more fiun, I certainly think so, however, the CLI is desperately more versitile, flexible, and efficient. Please read the observations on the page in the following link;

http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=10_reasons_why_the_command_line_is _more

[stevejesus]

NightwishFan, it was not my intent to offend you. My comments were intended to be in sarcasm, and I would expect any reasonable person to recieve it as such (like sexual harrassment in the workplace).
In my situation, I would have had to force myself to learn SFark's sub-standard level of CLI interaction. With in Win version, I start it, and then I extract the soundfont. MUCH faster. I am sorry that I don't share your passion and vigor for using the CLI. I use it when it's faster. And it ISN'T always faster. My passion is efficiency.
With that said, I am sorry that you found my comments to be offensive, although I do not have the capacity to understand it. All I know is that right now, all we are doing is wasting diskspace that we don't pay for.

[k2t0f12d]

My intent is to get WORK done, not to fumble around in incomplete software because I am stubborn.
My comment was meant to be humorous... But I find it bewildering however that you would go out of your way to use the command-line because you think it's fun. I use the command-line quite-a-bit! I build custom packages that take advantage of my hardware that I can't find in the repos. I use nano as my text-editor, I update my wares and install or remove others on the command-line and always have. BUT, I can't find another way to be more clear on this... if there is a GUI app Win or Lin that gets the job done faster, I WILL use it. I won't hang myself on the command-line wasting my time just so that I can fulfill my superiority complex by doing this the most pretentious way possible...

You are neither sarcastic nor humorous. Your posts to NightWish are catagorically offensive...here's why.

Firstly, you emphatically assert that you use software for work, which implicitly suggests that those who disagree with you either do not work, or do not use their software for work. This is followed closely with the accusation that software you do not like is incomplete. That may or may not be so, but in either case you either have not discussed the merits, only attacked the ideas of others.

Secondly you ended your train of thought with this

I won't hang myself on the command-line wasting my time just so that I can fulfill my superiority complex by doing this the most pretentious way possible...
Which accuses people who disagree with you with having personality traits you descibe in an insulting manner, and that it is by nature of those traits that they use software you choose not to rather then any improvement in interface and efficiency they have found that you have not.

In every case I have seen, NightWish has disagreed with you respectfully, a kindness you have not returned.

[stevejesus]

k2t0f12d,
This is the post I made that made NightwishFan upset. This is what I am referring to when I say I was trying to be sarcastic and humorous. Now... I hope we are on the same page... I would hope that you would agree that this statement is not even marginally offensive to a reasonable person.

ummm... I don't decompress files for fun. I don't know what your fetishes are, but that is not one of mine. I use whatever is fastest. Editing my fstab? xorg.conf? nano. update and install new packages? apt-get, not synaptic... but you justhave to use what is the most effective.

MS Office is better. Office 03 runs a bizillion times faster in wine than OOo's lard-*** does...

Noteworthy composer just works, without question. Rosegarden always works like crap.

Why would I use the command line if there is a more efficient GUI tool and vice-versa. And why would I use a Linux app if there is a better alternative that runs in Wine?

Please be aware that part of this is only MY opinion.

[stevejesus]

The statements I made later on were in self-defense after being attacked by Nightwish.

[k2t0f12d]

stevejesus,
You have omitted the part where you describe CLI as a fetish.

I also do not care how it started. He has been respectful and you have not.

I also found your posts offensive.

[aysiu]

I'm closing this thread temporarily so people can cool off a bit. Let's not make it personal, folks.