Suggestions for Programming Talk FAQs

[LaRoza]

As you all (probably) know, there is a Recurring Discussions (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=302) forum.

I suggest everyone go read text on the top of the forum that states its purpose.

Very few programming questions get moved there, and as you see from its contents, it is full of pointless threads.

Now, I recently closed a "what language do I learn" type thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=685202

That thread clearly qualifies for the Recurring Discussions forum, however, I don't like the shame of that forum.

So my question to you all is:

Should such threads be closed after refering to the stickies or should they be moved to the Recurring Discussions and left open?

I think it is better for those wanting to learn to review the material already written and prepared for them (the stickies) then to have to follow the discussion which follow such threads.

[CptPicard]

I see no problem really with tossing the threads to recurring discussions -- if someone wants to discuss within the context of the shame of that particular forum, why not let them, after making the point clear that there is a sticky.

I'm pretty sure our discussions will revolve around similar topics here anyway, after all:



Everything returns as before, and there is nothing new under the Sun, and man never changes although his clothes change and also the words of his language change.

Every now and then, we may even come up with novel points of view, so no reason to terminate threads prematurely :)

[amingv]

Searching the Ubuntu Forums is a quick way to see if someone has had your issue and if it has been answered. In a forum as large and active as this one, there's a good chance your question has been answered before, and you can get the information you want quickly.

And yet:


If the users' question has been covered in one of the community documents, please give them a description and the links. Some useful sites to point green users are: wiki.ubuntu.com, www.ubuntu.com, the forum HOWTOs, and doc.gwos.org. You can also show the user how to search the forums or tell them about the forum search utility. If you wish to remind a user to use search tools or other resources when they have asked a question you feel is basic or common, please be very polite. Any replies for help that contain language disrespectful towards the user asking the question, i.e. "STFU" or "RTFM" are unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

Myself; as of today I have had no need to create a new thread (I have found everything I need in older ones), but new users are not likely at all to search back in the forums. Still, I get your point and I agree that this will only lead to the same threads being made over and over again, we all know them by heart ('python first', 'type sudo apt-get install build-essential', 'use g++ for c++ code, not gcc', etc...) but closing the thread as the information has been provided might cut off the feedback of the OP, if the problem actually turns out to be different.

In a nutshell: I agree that threads of the kind 'what language to learn' can point to the stickies and be done with (closed), but other threads may need further consideration.

[LaRoza]

In a nutshell: I agree that threads of the kind 'what language to learn' can point to the stickies and be done with (closed), but other threads may need further consideration.

Yeah, I realize this forum is massive, and don't expect much other than reading the stickies.

[RIchard James13]

I think you will know what to do when the time comes. There is no blanket answer.

[Compyx]

How about creating a Programming Talk FAQ and making it sticky?

In such a thread you can put questions that pop up over and over again and provide an answer. Such as:

Q: 'no such file or directory: stdio.h'
A: sudo apt-get build essential
(some info why the above will solve the problem)

Perhaps making sections per language or problem-area (general compilation issues, kernel compilation, etc).
And ofcourse avoiding flame-bait questions: best language, best ide, best editor, best indentation style, etc.

Once we have established a good FAQ and made it sticky and closed, it will hopefully reduce the noise in this forum because a) people actually read the FAQ before posting or b) we can simple say 'read the FAQ'. ;)

[LaRoza]

How about creating a Programming Talk FAQ and making it sticky?

In such a thread you can put questions that pop up over and over again and provide an answer. Such as:

Q: 'no such file or directory: stdio.h'
A: sudo apt-get build essential
(some info why the above will solve the problem)

Perhaps making sections per language or problem-area (general compilation issues, kernel compilation, etc).
And ofcourse avoiding flame-bait questions: best language, best ide, best editor, best indentation style, etc.

Once we have established a good FAQ and made it sticky and closed, it will hopefully reduce the noise in this forum because a) people actually read the FAQ before posting or b) we can simple say 'read the FAQ'. ;)
Read the current stickies....

There is a Learn to Program FAQ, and there is a "read before posting" thread which has exactly some of the things you stated and more.

[aks44]

Taken from the "Recurring discussions" foreword (emphasis mine):


Subjects that are almost completely subjective in nature, and are obviously not a technical discussion, but a battle to trash to other side. Debates in which each side has no intention of listening, only attacking. Note: technical discussions should never fall under this category, so discussion on what Distro or OS is good for a certain computer with low specs, as the forums often get, will not qualify.

As I understand it, the kind of threads you're targeting doesn't fit there.
So I say, just merge them. At least we'll end up with less than a dozen megathreads instead of zillions of recurring threads. Just my 0.02.

[LaRoza]

Some discussions seem to come up over and over. This is a place for those sorts of topics, topics that have been discussed numerous times without the addition of new thoughts or idea. Generally, these are the sorts of things that cause arguments that are not based on merit or logic, but on personal tastes and desires.

These are the sorts of topics and discussions we may/will move here:

* Subjects that are almost completely subjective in nature, and are obviously not a technical discussion, but a battle to trash to other side. Debates in which each side has no intention of listening, only attacking. Note: technical discussions should never fall under this category, so discussion on what Distro or OS is good for a certain computer with low specs, as the forums often get, will not qualify.

* Any subject that has repeatedly been discussed, and further discussion is pointless.

* Proposals or suggestions that will never be implemented, for a variety of reasons, but what new users of these forums have commonly suggested. These may include "make Ubuntu more like Windows" discussions or "include this feature in the forums."

Note: we aren't trying to eliminate positive debates and conversations, we're just making a place for the more pointless ones...the "are we having this discussion again???" type.


There is more to it than just the clause you chose, emphasis mine. You just selected a single example, out of three, and the thread topic I cited fulfills the exact requirements of the Recurring Topics description.

[aks44]

Hmm, it makes sense. The first time I didn't understand the whole text as you just presented it, I guess I focused too much on the "non technical" part.

So IMO the "What is the best..." threads definitely belong to the Recurring Discussions.

[LaRoza]

So IMO the "What is the best..." threads definitely belong to the Recurring Discussions.

It seems that way.

[pmasiar]

Moving FAQ -asked questions to "recurring discussion" will NOT solve the problem IMHO.

1) tossing those question to recurring requires manual intervention of mod - scare resource
2) could "hurt the feelings" of poster. Will OP get message that post was moved?
3) I suggested different solution to this problem : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=684699 - adding text to template next to "New Post", reminding to read stickies.
4) Maybe sticties itself could be improved. Having separate threads titled after FAQ could hint poster what to read before posting. Remember, poster wants to answer quickly. If asking is faster than wandering between many posts and comments, poster will ask anyway.

So I suggest, in addition of adding "read stickies" new to "net post": To modify stickies so it will be more obvious which one to read.
- FAQ: How to learn programming/which language to use?
- FAQ: I have compile errors, what to do?
- FAQ: I am Windows developer, where in ubuntu is my VB/C#?
- FAQ: I want to start my own open source project, any advice?
- FAQ: Read this: Other FAQs

Also, I would suggest giving one infraction point to anyone who asked question which is in FAQ. Just as a notice for us that this is clueless person, if did not learned reading FAQ after 3 such infractions, it is good to know that how to answer him.

I have no problem if someone adds new twist on FAQ, but answering FAQ all the time is not fun, and is waste of time.

[LaRoza]

1) tossing those question to recurring requires manual intervention of mod - scare resource
2) could "hurt the feelings" of poster. Will OP get message that post was moved?
3) I suggested different solution to this problem : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=684699 - adding text to template next to "New Post", reminding to read stickies.
4) Maybe sticties itself could be improved. Having separate threads titled after FAQ could hint poster what to read before posting. Remember, poster wants to answer quickly. If asking is faster than wandering between many posts and comments, poster will ask anyway.

So I suggest, in addition of adding "read stickies" new to "net post": To modify stickies so it will be more obvious which one to read.
- FAQ: How to learn programming/which language to use?
- FAQ: I have compile errors, what to do?
- FAQ: I am Windows developer, where in ubuntu is my VB/C#?
- FAQ: Read this: Other FAQs

Moving posts does send an automatic PM, so I don't want to do that.

It is unlikely the basic layout of the forum will be changed, I will ask for a small announcment like this forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=100) and the Wine forum have, if we can formulate what it would say and link to.

As for new stickies or renaming them, what do you suggest? How do you rate the ones we have now?

They could easily be renamed, if you have suggestions for that, I could easily change the titles. Getting new ones will not be as easy, because sticky threads are discussed by the staff.

[thornmastr]

There does seem to be a very specific pattern. A person will ask a question that has been asked and answered a number of times. Usually, it is an issue addressed in at least one sticky. Two or three people will attempt to give a viable reply, and finally, a moderator will simply close the thread.
A possible approach is to answer with a pat statement, "This issue is clearly addressed in the sticky section"; and then notify LaRosa, and let him, or any other moderator close the thread. It does not have to go to any other forum; debilitating or not. It should simply be closed.

Perhaps one of our budding Python programmers could write a script to find these appropriately flagged posts and delete them after 24 hours.

[Vox754]

I really thought this thread was about improvements on the Programming Talk forum, not comments on the Recurring Discussions forum and whether or not threads should be closed or moved.

Anyway, here is my point of view.



Some discussions seem to come up over and over. This is a place for those sorts of topics, topics that have been discussed numerous times without the addition of new thoughts or idea. ...

These are the sorts of topics and discussions we may/will move here:
...Note: technical discussions should never fall under this category, ...

* Any subject that has repeatedly been discussed, and further discussion is pointless.

Note: we aren't trying to eliminate positive debates and conversations, we're just making a place for the more pointless ones...the "are we having this discussion again???" type.


I put emphasis on the word discussion, and I tend to agree with what aks44 posted in his first post.

No thread in the Programming Talk should be moved to Recurring Discussions.

Most threads are technical in nature, and even if they are "recurrent" questions, in my opinion, they do not qualify as "discussions".

Yes, people ask over and over again about where to start, the best programming languages, IDEs, easy compilation problems and stuff. But they are not trying to start any sort of "discussion", they are just clueless about searching the forums for they technical question and answer.

In my opinion, all "true discussions" in which experienced users like CptPicard, pmasiar, Wybiral, aks44, slavik, lnostdal, ghostdog, dataw0lf, hod139, po0f, samjh, xtacocorex, LaRoza (I know you don't consider an expert, and you are very modest), all the rest of you (you know who you are) or even supertroll j_g (now deceased), have participated, have been very unique.

For example, the past threads about the Pulse Audio library were enjoyable, and they were moved to Recurring Discussions! Gee, I guess we have a discussion on calling "exit()" from a shared library every week!
Now, those threads definitely deserved to be locked. Not because they were recurring discussions, but because pmasiar and j_g were throwing knifes at each other.

What I mean is, let's prepare a really good FAQ, and if you see one of those recurrent questions, simply ignore it; if you feel specially peaceful today, you can advice that person to read the FAQ.
This is important: you do not need to feel bad if the same question is asked over and over again.
And besides, there are always a handful of people who will give the advice anyway.

Yes, the solution is to prepare really useful FAQs and stickies. That way we won't feel bad if users do not take care to read them. We've done our job, advice has been given, the answers are all there.

Perhaps, you could start formulating questions and answers in this thread already.

----------------------------------------------------------------
De jure, you could say Recurring Discussions should have all those recurrent threads and questions, but de facto we all know it was created because of all the nonsense that goes on in the Community Cafe.

[LaRoza]

There does seem to be a very specific pattern. A person will ask a question that has been asked and answered a number of times. Usually, it is an issue addressed in at least one sticky. Two or three people will attempt to give a viable reply, and finally, a moderator will simply close the thread.

Perhaps one of our budding Python programmers could write a script to find these appropriately flagged posts and delete them after 24 hours.

You can use the report button to send a message to the staff. I check them constantly, so I'd see it if no one else did.

I really don't want to be closing threads, or moving them. It just seems (is) a waste of time going over the same material constantly.

No, that wouldn't work (the script). I am a very sophisticated bot, and even I have trouble with AI. There aren't that many to be dealt with. Given that we deal with spam by the bucket (or tin), a relatively rarer discussion is easy to deal with.

[LaRoza]

In my opinion, all "true discussions" in which experienced users like <snip /> LaRoza (I know you don't consider an expert, and you are very modest), all the rest of you (you know who you are) <snip />

Now, those threads definitely deserved to be locked. Not because they were recurring discussions, but because <snip /> were throwing knifes at each other.

What I mean is, let's prepare a really good FAQ, and if you see one of those recurrent questions, simply ignore it; if you feel specially peaceful today, you can advice that person to read the FAQ.

----------------------------------------------------------------
De jure, you could say Recurring Discussions should have all those recurrent threads and questions, but de facto we all know it was created because of all the nonsense that goes on in the Community Cafe.

Keep in mind I have been programming less than one year, this month will be the one year birthday of my first computer, and April with be one year of Linux. I am not experienced at all.

Flamewars will be closed, if you or anyone else sees one, report it. Please do not try to handle it. If someone insults or flamebaits, report it so it will be taken care of. Too many people complain of getting infractions for taking the bait.

As for the FAQs, I can edit any and rename any of the existing stickies. Everyone, please review them and think of ways of making them better.

Yes, that is why I refered to the "shame" of it.

[pmasiar]

How about creating a Programming Talk FAQ and making it sticky?


Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this suggestion was mentioned in stickies, which poster obviously did not read?

So how adding more info to page that you yourself do not read improves on the current situation? Obviously we need to do something differently, no? Question is: what, and how.

[CptPicard]

I have been programming less than one year, this month will be the one year birthday of my first computer, and April with be one year of Linux. I am not experienced at all.


Even more reason to be quite amazed indeed -- when I had been programming for a year, I had nowhere near your grasp of all sorts of languages. Your pace is commendable :)

Now, go grab that Cormen, Leiserson et al already...

[LaRoza]

Even more reason to be quite amazed indeed -- when I had been programming for a year, I had nowhere near your grasp of all sorts of languages. Your pace is commendable :)

Now, go grab that Cormen, Leiserson et al already...

I am a bot :)

Thanks.

I would buy that, but as a graduated student and unemployed, money is....rare.

I have books on such topics, so I am not totally lost. With the internet (which I got in November), I have more information at my fingertips.

[LaRoza]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this suggestion was mentioned in stickies, which poster obviously did not read?


No, even some of the topics mentioned were verbatim from the stickies.

[pmasiar]

So IMO the "What is the best..." threads definitely belong to the Recurring Discussions.

Yup. If poster would comment on a thread from sticky, at least we could expect s/he read previous discussion and added new twist/angle, and discussion can be continued in context. Starting it anew makes sense only in "recurring pointless discussion" forum, which most of us will rightfully ignore.

Maybe forum mod might add some cut-and-paste note about finding proper stickied thread (or thread linked from sticky) and continue there, instead of starting new thread, if (after reading previous discussion) any new info can be had.

[LaRoza]

Maybe forum mod might add some cut-and-paste note about finding proper stickied thread (or thread linked from sticky) and continue there, instead of starting new thread, if (after reading previous discussion) any new info can be had.

New threads aren't needed probably, just post it and the stickies can be updated.

<edit>
I keep wanting to respond to my own posts. This avatar really is throwing me off.
</edit>

[pmasiar]

Even more reason to be quite amazed indeed -- when I had been programming for a year, I had nowhere near your grasp of all sorts of languages. Your pace is commendable :)
.

Yup, I am impressed too. I was even thinking about graduating in Criminal Justice myself - or maybe it is something in the water? Hard to tell :-)

[pmasiar]

Moving posts does send an automatic PM, so I don't want to do that.

So we cannot have cut-and-paste message there, appropriate for the forum?



It is unlikely the basic layout of the forum will be changed, I will ask for a small announcment like this forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=100) and the Wine forum have, if we can formulate what it would say and link to.

That would be nice, as I said in this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=684699). Let's continue discussion in current thread, OK? So I assume you can make happen such "banner", question is, what to put there?


As for new stickies or renaming them, what do you suggest? How do you rate the ones we have now?

I rate them poorly, because as we see they do not work. As to what I suggest, I just did it in post you quoted.

Several important factors in naming the threads:

a) FAQ is repeated over many of them in same place - so it needs to be on the beginning
b) The question about to be posted needs to be in the title "read this" does not clue poster that answer to the question about to be posted is inside.


They could easily be renamed, if you have suggestions for that, I could easily change the titles. Getting new ones will not be as easy, because sticky threads are discussed by the staff.

yes, I believe we have bad granularity. If question is not obvious from the title, many people will not click and read inside.

Maybe solution for too many stickies will be separate subforum? But maybe later, when we will have 10 named FAQs - we are not there yet :-)

[pmasiar]

I think you will know what to do when the time comes. There is no blanket answer.

yes it is: "the time did come, and it is NOW" :-)

And we still do not know WHAT to do :-)

[LaRoza]

That would be nice, as I said in this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=684699). Let's continue discussion in current thread, OK? So I assume you can make happen such "banner", question is, what to put there?

Several important factors in naming the threads:

a) FAQ is repeated over many of them in same place - so it needs to be on the beginning
b) The question about to be posted needs to be in the title "read this" does not clue poster that answer to the question about to be posted is inside.

yes, I believe we have bad granularity. If question is not obvious from the title, many people will not click and read inside.


I can't make a banner, but if it were a good solution, I'm sure the admins would do it.

I renamed the one poorly named sticky.

[ThinkBuntu]

As far as suggestions go, I think there's a definite need to separate or at least differentiate between desktop and web development.

[LaRoza]

As far as suggestions go, I think there's a definite need to separate or at least differentiate between desktop and web development.

Tried, and it didn't fly with the admins. Assume that there will be no more subforums.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863

[Compyx]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this suggestion was mentioned in stickies, which poster obviously did not read?

So how adding more info to page that you yourself do not read improves on the current situation? Obviously we need to do something differently, no? Question is: what, and how.

What I was suggesting was creating a FAQ with the combined knowledge of the regular posters here. I have read those stickies and they're slightly confusing, and followed by long discussions which don't really clarify the subject.

My idea would be to create a single structured FAQ divided into clear sections and properly formatted. Perhaps hosting such a thing off-site would make sense to have more control over the structure and markup.

The contents of such a document would be created by the regular posters of this sub-forum and all contributions discussed and reviewed by peers. Perhaps a Wiki-type thing would be a good start to collect the knowledge of the people here.

This is not a new idea, but rather inspired by the FAQs of newsgroups (especially in the comp.lang.* hierarchy).

[LaRoza]

What I was suggesting was creating a FAQ with the combined knowledge of the regular posters here. I have read those stickies and they're slightly confusing, and followed by long discussions which don't really clarify the subject.

My idea would be to create a single structured FAQ divided into clear sections and properly formatted. Perhaps hosting such a thing off-site would make sense to have more control over the structure and markup.

The contents of such a document would be created by the regular posters of this sub-forum and all contributions discussed and reviewed by peers. Perhaps a Wiki-type thing would be a good start to collect the knowledge of the people here.

This is not a new idea, but rather inspired by the FAQs of newsgroups (especially in the comp.lang.* hierarchy).

Like a wiki? http://ubuntuprogramming.wikidot.com

Feel free to edit and improve it. Password is "LaRoza", if you decide to make an account. You don't need an account to edit though, for now.

[Shin_Gouki2501]

finding "the" perfect tutorial is quite impossible. Many people learn in diffrent ways. Thats why they create threads and start "their" style to learn it.
Its Pretty much unique as people are. So u will get a hard time to form a tutorial that suits every one...
And besides, thats also the reason there exist tons of tutorial in linux how to do the same thing!Yet some people can't handle any of those!

[Compyx]

Like a wiki? http://ubuntuprogramming.wikidot.com

Feel free to edit and improve it. Password is "LaRoza", if you decide to make an account. You don't need an account to edit though, for now.

Alright, I just made a small edit to the 'C' part of the wiki. I'll see what I can do. If more people would take a look and edit or create articles, we might actually create something useful for this forum.

I'll make an account as soon as I have my email accounts set up again, I don't like hiding behind 'Anonymous user'.

[LaRoza]

Alright, I just made a small edit to the 'C' part of the wiki. I'll see what I can do. If more people would take a look and edit or create articles, we might actually create something useful for this forum.

I'll make an account as soon as I have my email accounts set up again, I don't like hiding behind 'Anonymous user'.

Even small contributions help. The wiki was actually laroza.wikidot.com, but I changed it to reflect its purpose and to make it less "mine".

Don't worry about the anon edits, some of them are me when I forgot to log in.

[pmasiar]

I agree that following discussion in a forum is comfusing - so maybe reader just give up and ask FAQ again.

I would recommend to start with a wiki (like LaRoza has) and when confusion is cleared up, paste that wiki to the forum sticky - or even better, post short summary and link to outside wiki, where discussion can continue.

Forums are notoriously bad in creating consensus, they are all about opinions of each person, and misunderstanding/off topic are hard to clear out.

[pmasiar]

What I was suggesting was creating a FAQ with the combined knowledge of the regular posters here. I have read those stickies and they're slightly confusing, and followed by long discussions which don't really clarify the subject.

My idea would be to create a single structured FAQ divided into clear sections and properly formatted. Perhaps hosting such a thing off-site would make sense to have more control over the structure and markup.



Of course we need better wording for FAQ titles, so even for a beginner it would be obvious where to start.

"FAQ: Learning Computer Programming" is not easy to browse over to find quickly answer.

Maybe something like baboumpa put together for us? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=606009

To have one "FAQ: Read this before posting, OR ELSE! No exceptions!" which is just overview of threads, less confusing and simpler to find the answer?

[pmasiar]

I did not looked for a while to your "FAQ: Computer Programming in Linux" thread, and it is quite different from what I remember. Color is good.

Important thing to remember is, "people do not read on Internet" (see useit.com). People scan the page if it might have relevant info. Next to every link should be some "bait" why people should go and open the page.

Some posts (like "FAQ: Learning Computer Programming") try to answer too many questions. it has 2 consequences:
1) page is too long and hard to scan
2) discussion mixes replies to all points, hard to follow

maybe we can have a rule that in thread with FAQ in name, responsibility of OP is to include comments (at least the small minor ones) and ask mod to delete the OT discussion - to keep thread clean and readable.

Such threads do not have to be stickied - but they would be linked from a sticky, which will be just a portal to FAQ threads, not diving too much into details, like FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554)

Portal will be linked from a "banner" next to "New post", increasing chance that newbies do read it before posting.

BTW, can we change title to "Suggestions for Programming Talk FAQs" ? :-)

Edit: or do we give up on forums and do it all in wiki off-site?

[LaRoza]

Important thing to remember is, "people do not read on Internet" (see useit.com). People scan the page if it might have relevant info. Next to every link should be some "bait" why people should go and open the page.



They don't read web pages, but they better read the FAQ's.

Wasn't it you who didn't like the "Read first before posting" title because it didn't describe the contents?

[amingv]

I think "people" is to big a word for so small a description. "People" who just want a quick answer won't read the stickies if they had their exact question as a title and in a flash movie with big neon letters. (OK, a bit of an exaggeration here.) Many know the answers are there, but sometimes think "By the time I read this/search the forum, a kind person will answer my thread..."

The difference in the programming forum is: if I'm looking at a compiz guide, I can "scan" for something like "how to work the cube" and be OK. But in programming every detail matters. Serendipity happens in forums and I think that by putting some "bait" in the FAQs or guides we actually encourage not to read the thread, and effectively "hide" information.

Of course, this is nowhere beyond being my opinion...

@LaRoza: Gah! The avatar change took me aback...:)

[pmasiar]

I created "new and improved" FAQ portal page: FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4274830)

yes i know I need to clean it up and I will. But we need the banner.

[LaRoza]

I created "new and improved" FAQ portal page: FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4274830)

yes i know I need to clean it up and I will. But we need the banner.

When you get it cleaned up, to you want the contents to be a sticky?

[pmasiar]

yes please, I will tell you when. I modeled it after bapoumba's page, but this one will be easier to be maintained by at least 2 persons: me and you :-)

AND we need the banner please. Is the only remaining issue the text in the banner? Maybe new thread, discussing the exact text, should be started?

[LaRoza]

yes please, I will tell you when. I modeled it after bapoumba's page, but this one will be easier to be maintained by at least 2 persons: me and you :-)

AND we need the banner please. Is the only remaining issue the text in the banner? Maybe new thread, discussing the exact text, should be started?

I don't know about the banner, that is up to the admins.

I can do the sticky things, if the one you are working on looks like it could replace bapoumba's, I'll just copy and past your posts contents in.

[pmasiar]

I can do the sticky things, if the one you are working on looks like it could replace bapoumba's, I'll just copy and past your posts contents in.

I would prefer to have FAQ as standard thread, so people can post comments without waiting for a mod to update page (avoiding single point of failure). It is not too much work to edit the page to accomodate suggestions, then deleting the comment to maintain readability.

If comments cannot be visible immediately, many people will not bother to post at all. Instant gratification! :-)

Where deleted comments go? If we need to keep them somewhere for some strange reasons, we can get "archive thread" for every FAQ and move comments there after embedding them into first FAQ post.

Like in FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4274830) posts #2, #3, #4 are prime candidates for deletion, in some point in the future.

[LaRoza]

I would prefer to have FAQ as standard thread, so people can post comments without waiting for a mod to update page (avoiding single point of failure). It is not too much work to edit the page to accomodate suggestions, then deleting the comment to maintain readability.

If comments cannot be visible immediately, many people will not bother to post at all. Instant gratification! :-)

Where deleted comments go? If we need to keep them somewhere for some strange reasons, we can get "archive thread" for every FAQ and move comments there after embedding them into first FAQ post.

Like in FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4274830) posts #2, #3, #4 are prime candidates for deletion, in some point in the future.

Deleting comments would be a bit much, I doubt anyone would be distracted by the conversation if the first post were interesting enough.

Deleted posts go...nowhere. They are still there to me and other staff. An admin could do a hard delete (but that is unlikely in this case. They seem to only do that for special circumstances), or the comments could be moved. Don't expect me do that though :)

#3 is my post, and I resent that you think my posts are worth deleting (joke).

[pmasiar]

Deleting comments would be a bit much, I doubt anyone would be distracted by the conversation if the first post were interesting enough.

OK so maybe we should have "FAQ discussion thread" where all the comments live, and "FAQ clean page". Preferred mode will be to comment in discussion, but of course people will ignore it, and post comment to "clean" page.

"clean" thread will have link to "discussion" at the bottom.

Can individual posts be moved from "clean" to "discussion" thread? Immediately if it is empty banter or "thank you", or after adding comment to "clean" page if it is any good?

[aks44]

#3 is my post, and I resent that you think my posts are worth deleting (joke).You deserve that anyway, you wanted to delete our beloved Wybiral! :cry: Damn heartless bots... :mad:
:D


OK so maybe we should have "FAQ discussion thread" where all the comments live, and "FAQ clean page". [...] Can individual posts be moved from "clean" to "discussion" thread?+1
IMO a FAQ thread (or tutorials, guides, ...) deserves to be kept clean from discussions (which invariably happen) so the person reading it doesn't waste time filtering useful content from discussions (even if those discussions are on-topic with the goal to improve the FAQ, before a consensus is made the reader can easily get lost).

[LaRoza]

You deserve that anyway, you wanted to delete our beloved Wybiral! :cry: Damn heartless bots... :mad:
:D

+1
IMO a FAQ thread (or tutorials, guides, ...) deserves to be kept clean from discussions (which invariably happen) so the person reading it doesn't waste time filtering useful content from discussions (even if those discussions are on-topic with the goal to improve the FAQ, before a consensus is made the reader can easily get lost).

bapoumba's thread can be easily updated (I have updated it also several times), it is closed, so there will be no discussions on it.

I was only doing what Wybiral wanted, he said "...delete me...", how is a bot (or even some humans) to know that he was personifying a post?

Good thing I clarified.

[pmasiar]

bapoumba's thread can be easily updated (I have updated it also several times), it is closed, so there will be no discussions on it.

Even a bot like you need to recharge. Who will be updating posts while you recharge? :-)

I think that if someone has good comments, it is conterproductive to expect him/her sending private message to you or other mod about the requested change. Instant gratification is powerful, let's use it. There is no problem if 2-3 comments are after main page. 55 comments is a problem.

But you did not answered my questions, LaRoza (as a bot, you could be paying more attention :-) possibly some bug lurking somewhere? ):

Is it hard to move posts between threads? Or to some "parking space" where they will not clutter main post?

If we allow comments on "clean" post (even if some will be by mistake), we will get good interesting contributions which we might miss if poster needs to post message to you.
If our bot, LaRoza, can quickly and simply move "resolved" comments and empty banter to "discussion" thread, we will keep "clean" FAQ thread readable. And we have best of both worlds.

I am fully aware that I am basically suggesting to reimplement a wiki using forum software, but I feel that being on the same website is important - maybe I am wrong and we just should copy-paste from wiki? But then again, when and how often? And markup is different... Some script to convert the markup and post it? Looks like too much hassle to me.

Approving changes from comments by some editor, auditing the changes, is good. We cannot undo the edits AFAIK, approving is next best thing.

[LaRoza]

Is it hard to move posts between threads? Or to some "parking space" where they will not clutter main post?

If we allow comments on "clean" post (even if some will be by mistake), we will get good interesting contributions which we might miss if poster needs to post message to you.
If our bot, LaRoza, can quickly and simply move "resolved" comments and empty banter to "discussion" thread, we will keep "clean" FAQ thread readable. And we have best of both worlds.


Hard? Not really. A pain in the neck? Yes.

Other mods? It is not my decision what gets to be a sticky (it is a group effort).

I think leaving the discussion, and having the OP maintained, or having it closed and PM's to update are the best way.

Having it they way you describe is too...unwieldly.

[Vox754]

yes please, I will tell you when. I modeled it after bapoumba's page, but this one will be easier to be maintained by at least 2 persons: me and you :-)


I don't like your current FAQ, pmasiar. Too much information! Nobody will want to read that.

We need something simple like bapoumba's thread, but with just a little more info.
Also, we need to clearly identify links which are "discussions", and those that are "references".

For instance, these are references
How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867)
Programming Books Recommendations (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=661754)

While those threads about IDEs, first language, programming games, and so, are discussions.

I'm not saying that your FAQ is useless. It can serve as an extended FAQ with all those links to previous discussions.
---------------------------------------------------------------
In general, I like the idea of a clean FAQ; that is, a one-post, closed thread which no one but the moderators can modify.
After all, a really good sticky should contain very useful information which doesn't need to be changed very often.

Maybe we just need like three stickies:

One for absolute beginners. With a quick FAQ, and no references. Just questions and answers. Something like LaRoza's Learning Computer Programming FAQ (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) with a few more questions and answers.
One for references. All reading material, tutorials, and API documentation. We should consider updating Wybiral's thread How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867). The other thread Ubuntu's Free! Online Programming Book Library Links page (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=255970) looks like is no longer maintained, information is presented in a very chaotic way, and should no longer be in the stickies.
An extended FAQ. Like your current FAQ, pmasiar, with all the whats, whys and hows, and previous discussions collected.


And if you people decide to update Wybiral's thread, or create a new one, please define some sort of template, with the same sections and formatting.

[LaRoza]

---------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe we just need like three stickies:

One for absolute beginners. With a quick FAQ, and no references. Just questions and answers. Something like LaRoza's Learning Computer Programming FAQ (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) with a few more questions and answers.



If you have suggestions for that FAQ, please post them. Many of the questions were added by others, not me.

It seems that this FAQ issues is getting overly complex, this is a forum, not a wiki.

I took your suggestion and removed the other sticky, because it was too redundant.

[pmasiar]

I don't like your current FAQ, pmasiar. Too much information! Nobody will want to read that.

We need something simple like bapoumba's thread, but with just a little more info.

It started from bapoumba's thread, I just added a little more info :-)

I started reorganizing groups. Psychology has a great rule, system should have 7+-2 parts. (5 to 9, 7 being optimal). I will shuffle it little more. I will also move some info into subpages.

If you want, you can create your own version of that page somewhere, and we can compare. I don't claim I am the best editor or writer (English is not even between my first 3 languages :-) ) so any suggestions are welcome.


Also, we need to clearly identify links which are "discussions", and those that are "references".

Great idea. How to do that? Suggestions?


While those threads about IDEs, first language, programming games, and so, are discussions.

My idea is to have first 2 or 3 levels "clean FAQ" pages, linked to discussions. If some discussion is not clear enough feel free to sumarize it in a "clean FAQ" post, and link to original discussion if you want to.


In general, I like the idea of a clean FAQ; that is, a one-post, closed thread which no one but the moderators can modify.

I explained why I disagree, do you dispute my points?
(1) Moderators are single point of failure. Distributed processing works better than centralized. It is the web 2.0 way.
(2) Instant gratification about posting is very powerful. Without it, we may miss many postings, people cannot be bothered to write email to mod a let him approve or not some opinion. "Don't ask for permission: ask for forgiveness".


After all, a really good sticky should contain very useful information which doesn't need to be changed very often.

If there is no need to edit it, there is no difference. If post needs change, edit by mod is bottleneck.

This way, multiple people may maintain different FAQ pages, each in area where s/he knows most. I would not dare to write FAQ about C++ errors. If mod is not an expert in page being maintained, it is worst case of remote editing: send email for every change. Not many people would bother. I know I would not, in many places it is decent only after 3 drafts.

If we insist on mod-only FAQ page editing, better idea IMHO will be offsite wiki copy-pasted to FAQ. Also pain.


One for absolute beginners. With a quick FAQ, and no references. Just questions and answers. Something like LaRoza's Learning Computer Programming FAQ (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) with a few more questions and answers.


I see big changes LaRoza did there since I checked it a day or 2 ago.

I really do not like how headers are repeated in single link below:


6. Visual Basic on Ubuntu]
Visual Basic on Ubuntu

7. Visual Studio]
Visual Studio on Ubuntu

Complete waste of space IMHO.


One for references.
An extended FAQ.

Whole point is to have one single FAQ portal page, from which all FAQs can be found in 2-3 clicks.

So there are absolutely no excuses in no reading them. And I am serious about proposing (after couple months) awarding infraction points to people who ignore FAQ.


And if you people decide to update Wybiral's thread, or create a new one, please define some sort of template, with the same sections and formatting.

I already proposed someone who has feel about design to start a thread about FAQ template. We have 3 or 4 templates right now (me, LaRoza, aks44 and maybe wybiral), someone with a clue has to start discussion about them: FAQ about how to format FAQs. Can you do it?

[LaRoza]

I see big changes LaRoza did there since I checked it a day or 2 ago.

I really do not like how headers are repeated in single link below:

Complete waste of space IMHO.



That is no longer stickies because it was too bare and redundant.

[Vox754]

If you want, you can create your own version of that page somewhere, and we can compare. I don't claim I am the best editor or writer (English is not even between my first 3 languages :-) ) so any suggestions are welcome.

Yes you've said it before, English is your Forth language.
I would start another FAQ, but to be honest I'm like... you, full of good ideas but a bit lazy when it comes to actually implement something.
Jokes aside, don't worry, I'll work on it.
I guess I just want to contribute some bits and not handle the whole enchilada.



Also, we need to clearly identify links which are "discussions", and those that are "references".



Great idea. How to do that? Suggestions?

It's very simple, because there are only two reference threads that I'm aware of:
How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867)
Programming Books Recommendations (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=661754)

The important thing with these, is that they should not be discussed. They only provide the external links to hard documentation, tutorials, libraries, APIs, etcetera.



I explained why I disagree, do you dispute my points?
(1) Moderators are single point of failure. Distributed processing works better than centralized. It is the web 2.0 way.
(2) Instant gratification about posting is very powerful. Without it, we may miss many postings, people cannot be bothered to write email to mod a let him approve or not some opinion. "Don't ask for permission: ask for forgiveness".

Yes I dispute your points. But I guess fundamentally we have different philosophies. I'm about "following rules", and you seem to be the "anarchist-we-moderate-ourselves-let-the-water-flow-kind-of-guy".

Besides, I think you are forgetting something: LaRoza is a moderator now. LaRoza is on our side.


After all, a really good sticky should contain very useful information which doesn't need to be changed very often.


If there is no need to edit it, there is no difference. If post needs change, edit by mod is bottleneck.

Actually, I think there is difference: it could be a perfect sticky, but if it remains open, some clueless reader will eventually post some random sentence like "thanks, this was really helpful", introducing the much hated "noise".



This way, multiple people may maintain different FAQ pages, each in area where s/he knows most. I would not dare to write FAQ about C++ errors. If mod is not an expert in page being maintained, it is worst case of remote editing: send email for every change. Not many people would bother. I know I would not, in many places it is decent only after 3 drafts.

This is a good idea which was mentioned earlier: FAQ for each programming language. Aks44 already started the C and C++ one, which in my opinion is perfect. It would be lovely to have more threads like that one, specially for those languages that may need some setup, like Java (alternatives), or Ruby (gems).

This cannot be hard to maintain. We just need a closed sticky with the links to the specific FAQs. So the sticky only needs to be updated when a new FAQ is to be added, or an old one becomes obsolete. And this can be done by any moderator, just like the current bapoumba thread.



If we insist on mod-only FAQ page editing, better idea IMHO will be offsite wiki copy-pasted to FAQ. Also pain.

Yes, pain, but not for us! For the moderators. And LaRoza is a moderator now.



Whole point is to have one single FAQ portal page, from which all FAQs can be found in 2-3 clicks.

Yes, I agree. But I still think my tri-sticky proposal would be nice. One really short FAQ. One for references. One for discussions.
And this is practically implemented already in the following threads:

Learning Computer Programming FAQ. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) This one can remain open as it currently is. Emphasis on short questions and short answers.
Bapoumba's thread. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=606009) In order for it to be a reference thread, the discussions on "love/hate python/perl" and "Hello Ubuntu" would need to be moved. Also descriptions beside the links would be useful.
Pmasiar extended FAQ. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) With previous discussions. However I would move the "How to ask good questions" section to the short FAQ.




I already proposed someone who has feel about design to start a thread about FAQ template. We have 3 or 4 templates right now (me, LaRoza, aks44 and maybe wybiral), someone with a clue has to start discussion about them: FAQ about how to format FAQs. Can you do it?
Why does it have to be me? Just kidding.
I can only say this, a FAQ is Questions and Answers. Give the answer, and then, if someone wants a lengthy explanation, a link.

Actually I was thinking about a new thread: "Help, I need a tutorial on reading tutorials!!!"

[slavik]

IMO, we should have a sticky with as many languages categorized in two ways: paradigm and what it is well suited for.

we could have another post within the same sticky about how and why the language was put into existance (what problem the language creator wanted to solve).

[LaRoza]

This cannot be hard to maintain. We just need a closed sticky with the links to the specific FAQs. So the sticky only needs to be updated when a new FAQ is to be added, or an old one becomes obsolete. And this can be done by any moderator, just like the current bapoumba thread.


Learning Computer Programming FAQ. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) This one can remain open as it currently is. Emphasis on short questions and short answers.
Bapoumba's thread. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=606009) In order for it to be a reference thread, the discussions on "love/hate python/perl" and "Hello Ubuntu" would need to be moved. Also descriptions beside the links would be useful.
Pmasiar extended FAQ. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) With previous discussions. However I would move the "How to ask good questions" section to the short FAQ.




I can add to bapoumba's thread. So any new Language FAQ's can have their own sections. More descriptive content could be added too.

The "How to ask questions" link is in my FAQ, number five I think.

[cprofitt]

I think that the current stickies are very good... the only thing that would be interesting to add is a stickie thread that was composd of challenges similar to project euler, but perhaps a little more geared towards beginners. A place for beginners to stretch their skills and discuss the different methods of solving a particular problem.

[pmasiar]

Yes you've said it before, English is your Forth language.

No: Forth was my fifth language. English was my fourth :-)



Also, we need to clearly identify links which are "discussions", and those that are "references".

What method you suggest? "FAQ:" in link name for "clean" FAQ is OK, rest are discussions? Suggesting that there is a problem is cheap: give me also patch how to solve it! :-)


The important thing with these, is that they should not be discussed. They only provide the external links to hard documentation, tutorials, libraries, APIs, etcetera.

And what should happen if someone wants to suggest another good link? I explained why, according to my experience with human psychology, requiring email editing will yield less contributions. Seems like you are not concerned about that.


But I guess fundamentally we have different philosophies. I'm about "following rules", and you seem to be the "anarchist-we-moderate-ourselves-let-the-water-flow-kind-of-guy".


Yes, my approach is: "don't ask for permission: ask for forgiveness". I assume that smart people will do right thing, and don't need policing. Stupid people are simple to police: if they contribute nothing, delete their posts (or move it out of sight).


Besides, I think you are forgetting something: LaRoza is a moderator now. LaRoza is on our side.

I do hope that LaRoza will get a job. When people have jobs, funny thing happens to the time they used to spend in forums...


Actually, I think there is difference: it could be a perfect sticky, but if it remains open, some clueless reader will eventually post some random sentence like "thanks, this was really helpful", introducing the much hated "noise".

I am all for footer in red letters: "posting comments with no information will earn you 1 infraction point". I suggested it couple times but no feedback so far on this idea.



FAQ for each programming language. Aks44 already started the C and C++ one, which in my opinion is perfect. It would be lovely to have more threads like that one,

We already do have couple: there was Wybiral's thread for many languages, I am not sure where it is now.


We just need a closed sticky with the links to the specific FAQs. So the sticky only needs to be updated when a new FAQ is to be added, or an old one becomes obsolete. And this can be done by any moderator, just like the current bapoumba thread.

Yes, pain, but not for us! For the moderators. And LaRoza is a moderator now.

Except of LaRoza who is a bot :-) rest of mods are humans. It takes time for them to respond. I don't want to waste their time for tasks we can handle ourselves as community.

I guess all this banter can be reduced to: I believe that ultimately we can acculture newbies to behave within limits, you gave up on that hope. :-)


my tri-sticky proposal would be nice. One really short FAQ. One for references. One for discussions.

I have hard time distinguish between discussion and references. If, we need just 2 FAQs:
1) 1 page for total beginners who cannot scroll (simplified bapoumba's), and
2) portal to advanced topics, like FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) (with possibly different name? )


Also descriptions beside the links would be useful.

Yes, that was one reasons why I wanted to redo the FAQs.


However I would move the "How to ask good questions" section to the short FAQ.

Now you get trapped in your own trap, IMHO. See? You need to ask someone to edit page, and that someone may not like it -- but majority of forum regulars may like it. Will we run the poll for every suggested change?


Actually I was thinking about a new thread: "Help, I need a tutorial on reading tutorials!!!"

That should be provided in public schools: "remedial reading". :-)

[pmasiar]

I think that the current stickies are very good... the only thing that would be interesting to add is a stickie thread that was composd of challenges similar to project euler, but perhaps a little more geared towards beginners. A place for beginners to stretch their skills and discuss the different methods of solving a particular problem.

ProjectEuler, and more were in the improved FAQ thread I suggested: FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554)

Seems like you missed it?

That thread need cleanup/conversion to "clean" FAQ. Any volunteers?

[cprofitt]

ProjectEuler

That thread need cleanup/conversion to "clean" FAQ. Any volunteers?

I will volunteer to clean it up -- just let me know.

I wasn't referring to sending people off to ProjectEueler, but advanced programmers posting their own problems here for new programmers to solve. ProjectEuler focuses on math based solutions, and I think other types of 'problems' could be put in a thread.

I am suggesting a pmasiar Ubuntu Project Euler type thread/stickie. The stickie would be closed to the general public, the mods would post a problem and link to a thread in which people would post their 'solutions' and everyone could discuss the various approaches.

[pmasiar]

I will volunteer to clean it up -- just let me know.

Sure, create your own thread "FAQ: Tasks To Solve" or something, where original post includes all suggestions (and you can get more from my wiki), and I'll replace the link.

There are many many websites with tasks to solve, collecting them to one place will be great resource, but to accomplish that we need to use resourcefulness and knowledge (and bookmarks) of many people. Result of single person efforts are all those sites we need to find :-)


I wasn't referring to sending people off to ProjectEueler, but advanced programmers posting their own problems ...

The stickie would be closed to the general public, the mods would post a problem and link to a thread in which people would post their 'solutions' and everyone could discuss the various approaches.

Thats interesting idea, we had such threads (weekly "competitions") about a year ago, IIRC.

But my focus will be on linking already created resources (which are plenty), not making up new tasks. In fact, there are so many resources (many are threads in other forums) that cleaning them up could give you better return on effort.

[ghostdog74]

my $0.02. rough idea
1) restructure the programming talk forum to various sub forum languages. eg
a) Python
b) Java
c) Perl
d) etc 1
e) others

Anyone with a problem to solve using a certain language preference can post in the respective sub forums.

OR

2) Restructure the forum to various common programing concepts
a) File I/O
b) Loops
c) Control structures ( eg case , switch, if/else
d) Download web page
e) Regular expression
f) etc
Then inside these, we show how each concepts are done in various languages.

[pmasiar]

1) restructure the programming talk forum to various sub forum languages. eg

You can suggest subforums at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=48

maybe you want to start thread and explain your position to gain some support - I heard that there is not much support for PT subforums between mods, but you can try. I am not sure if I would support it tho... too many subforums to check.


Restructure the forum to various common programing concepts
I don't think it makes sense - most questions will not fit.

[LaRoza]

You can suggest subforums at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=48

maybe you want to start thread and explain your position to gain some support - I heard that there is not much support for PT subforums between mods, but you can try. I am not sure if I would support it tho... too many subforums to check.


That would be the place to ask, but I wouldn't support it and I am certain the Admins (whose decision it is) wouldn't do it.

[ghostdog74]

I am not sure if I would support it tho... too many subforums to check.

well, just $0.02. doesn't matter.

[aks44]

Just posted the "second half" of my FAQ as suggested, please comment on it.

I'm tired now so I'll fix the "first part" quite probably tomorrow (no way I'm gonna use my brain anymore tonight :oops:)...

[Vox754]

No: Forth was my fifth language. English was my fourth :-) (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3475648&postcount=23)

Did you just steal my enchilada allusion in the C and C++ thread?



What method you suggest? "FAQ:" in link name for "clean" FAQ is OK, rest are discussions? Suggesting that there is a problem is cheap: give me also patch how to solve it! :-)

FAQ in the name sounds okay. But, perhaps we are not understanding each other correctly. I already talked about my "patch".
It's not really about the name, but about the content. Wybiral's thread is the ultimate reference.
How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867)



And what should happen if someone wants to suggest another good link? I explained why, according to my experience with human psychology, requiring email editing will yield less contributions. Seems like you are not concerned about that.

I am concerned about that too. But so far it has played out well.
Look again at Wybiral's How to start programming - guides and links for many languages. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867)
The most experienced users in each area (you included) have given quite a few links. And I doubt "someone" will just find a better resource than those already there, specially for the currently popular languages. And with the index in the first post it's easy to read the best description of a language, instead of random links given by a novice programmer.

That thread is great, but it would be better with a template and if the posters mentioned that they will actively look after their section at least for a year, and if they cannot longer maintain it so another poster would take his place.

With a FAQ, it should almost be the same, only it would have comprehensive Questions and Answers, which do not need to be "maintained" (modified) as much.



I assume that smart people will do right thing, and don't need policing. Stupid people are simple to police: if they contribute nothing, delete their posts (or move it out of sight).
...
I am all for footer in red letters: "posting comments with no information will earn you 1 infraction point". I suggested it couple times but no feedback so far on this idea.

I certainly understand you, I would like less stupid people too.
However, we are in ubuntuforums.org which basically means we need to be as friendly as we can.
If we were elsewhere, I would certainly throw harder jabs at newcomers, but not here.



I do hope that LaRoza will get a job. When people have jobs, funny thing happens to the time they used to spend in forums...

Let's not wait until LaRoza gets a job. We need to set up the FAQs now.



FAQ for each programming language. Aks44 already started the C and C++ one, which in my opinion is perfect. It would be lovely to have more threads like that one,



We already do have couple: there was Wybiral's thread for many languages, I am not sure where it is now.

I think you are confusing things.
Wybiral's thread How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867) is hard reference, while aks44 thread is specific FAQ on language. And it's fine this way, I think; we need hard references, and specific FAQs.



Except of LaRoza who is a bot :-) rest of mods are humans. It takes time for them to respond. I don't want to waste their time for tasks we can handle ourselves as community.

But moderators are part of the community. And it's not like each of them has a million things to do; it's still a volunteer's work, and I would like to think that they do it because they have the free time the rest of us do not. Most of them already take care of specific sections. Some watch over the gaming forum, others the virtualization forum, another handles marketing, one looks for nVidia or Ati drivers.

So, I feel like we are on a win-win situation with LaRoza.




I have hard time distinguish between discussion and references. If, we need just 2 FAQs:
1) 1 page for total beginners who cannot scroll (simplified bapoumba's), and
2) portal to advanced topics, like FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) (with possibly different name? )

This is basically my proposal too, only with LaRoza's Learning Computer Programming FAQ (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422) as the short FAQ, modified bapoumba's as the reference page (linking to Wybiral's), and your thread FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) as the extended FAQ.

Man, it really is hard to explain!



However I would move the "How to ask good questions" section to the short FAQ.



Now you get trapped in your own trap, IMHO. See? You need to ask someone to edit page, and that someone may not like it -- but majority of forum regulars may like it. Will we run the poll for every suggested change?

Oh, about that.
Actually, I have "edited" several times the locked sticky thread before, Linux Programming Reference (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=606009). How? By reporting it, and giving a reasonable explication about what needs to be changed.
Yes, bapoumba took a day to actually change the thread, but it was done. Now, we have LaRoza. Who do you think has changed that thread on my behalf, now?
Of course, for this to work, changes must be really justified, and judgment of maintainer (moderator) must be high.
I trust my community, I trust my moderators.

I really liked the way you phrased the very beginning of your thread FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554)

So, I will just say that every one of these FAQs should start in a similar way:



Please read relevant links before asking questions.
Mention in your question that you've read the FAQs. It gives us warm feeling, and we don't waste time by pointing back to FAQs.
Single best advice is: provide a meaningful title for your thread. Include the programming language in the title if applicable. "Please help" is a really bad title.



The last paragraph is also applicable to LaRoza's Learning Computer Programming FAQ (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667422), in the 5th item.
Actually, this item makes no sense at all. Is it about learning or googling or asking smart questions?
(I know I should post the improvements there, but I'm already excited here.)

Come on! I know we can pull this off. We are almost there.

[pmasiar]

But so far it has played out well.
Look again at Wybiral's How to start programming - guides and links for many languages. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867)
The most experienced users in each area (you included) have given quite a few links.

Exactly. And we used approach what I suggest: Anyone can add a comment, without need for remote editing by sending emails to mods. If we had to do that, I bet thread would be less useful - many edits improvements would not happened.


However, we are in ubuntuforums.org which basically means we need to be as friendly as we can

One infraction which expires in a day is not much a punishment IMHO. It is just reminder that clean FAQ are important for us, and we do not want waste time policing. But I wait LaRoza's opinion on that. Unless the opinion is to give infraction point to me :-)


Let's not wait until LaRoza gets a job. We need to set up the FAQs now.

I want to establish a process which can go on even after LaRoza will get a job. Of course we can start now, just start new FAQ thread and I will add it.


I think; we need hard references, and specific FAQs.

Can you define "hard references"?



But moderators are part of the community. And it's not like each of them has a million things to do; it's still a volunteer's work, and I would like to think that they do it because they have the free time the rest of us do not.

You are kidding right? I assume they should have life beyond forums, precisely because they are volunteers, and want to design a process which will requires less of mod's time, not more, if possible.


Man, it really is hard to explain!

Yes. Start your editor, and show us. Talk is cheap, show us the code! :-)




Actually, I have "edited" several times the locked sticky thread before, ... By reporting it, and giving a reasonable explication about what needs to be changed....
I trust my community, I trust my moderators

I like not to waste time, mine or mods. "Don't ask for permission, etc..." approach.

I would like feedback from others on this. I may set up a poll later, but I want to do some research what other people (beyond you and me) think about that.

[pmasiar]

1. Please read relevant links before asking questions.
2. Mention in your question that you've read the FAQs. It gives us warm feeling, and we don't waste time by pointing back to FAQs.
3. Single best advice is: provide a meaningful title for your thread. Include the programming language in the title if applicable. "Please help" is a really bad title.

3. Advice is crude extract from the article "how to ask questions", IMHO reading at least once it is usefull for everyone, especially newbies, but you removed the link. May I ask why?

[Vox754]

Exactly. And we used approach what I suggest: Anyone can add a comment, without need for remote editing by sending emails to mods. If we had to do that, I bet thread would be less useful - many edits improvements would not happened.

You are right. But I wasn't suggesting locking a thread such as Wybiral's. Only the "clean FAQ", or root thread, such as bapoumba's.
Bapouba's thread is locked (noiseless), and it points to Wybiral thread.



One infraction which expires in a day is not much a punishment IMHO. It is just reminder that clean FAQ are important for us, and we do not want waste time policing. But I wait LaRoza's opinion on that. Unless the opinion is to give infraction point to me :-)

Aaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha.
If I were a moderator, I would give an infraction to you every month just for the fun of it. ("I'm bored, what do I do? I know, let's pay pmasiar a visit.")
Anyway, giving infractions that way is beyond LaRoza's attributions. Moderators would need to talk this to Administrators, who would then establish a new policy. Should this new policy apply to the whole ubuntuforums.org? Only Programming Talk? As you see, this requires a whole new discussion.

What if LaRoza is reported for awarding these infractions without telling Administrators? Uh oh. "LaRoza you are fired!"



Can you define "hard references"?

Take a look at Wybiral's entry on C++, in How to start programming - guides and links for many languages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333867). It's the very first reply.

Are you a complete beginner looking for a tutorial?
Don't start a whole thread, just pick one of the links (with descriptions) already provided.


Thinking in C++ (http://mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html) (beginner): a very good introduction to standard C++; book available for free download; also available in print


Do you want to know about Vector constructors, Vector operators? Don't start a whole thread, just look at the reference


Cpp Reference (http://www.cppreference.com/index.html): (advanced) Covers standard C library, and STL



You are kidding right? I assume they should have life beyond forums, precisely because they are volunteers, and want to design a process which will requires less of mod's time, not more, if possible.

Of course they have lives. What I mean is this: maybe you and I work from 9 to 5, but what if someone works from 9 to 4? Maybe that person can play moderator with that extra hour of spare time.
Besides, being a moderator is like becoming Spiderman. You accept the powers, but also the responsibility. (And you can crawl all over the place, throw web bolts, and do some aerial combos!)

Believe me, sometimes they are overwhelmed with requests from clueless users, and sometimes they are bored and wish they had something specific to do.



...
I want to establish a process which can go on even after LaRoza will get a job. Of course we can start now, just start new FAQ thread and I will add it.
...
Yes. Start your editor, and show us. Talk is cheap, show us the code! :-)

PrivateVoid already volunteered to clean up your FAQ. Let's wait for him.



I would like feedback from others on this. I may set up a poll later, but I want to do some research what other people (beyond you and me) think about that.
You kidding. Without me you wouldn't have anybody to talk to, beyond the "premature optimization is the root of all evil".


Premature optimization is like premature ejac... bad!

[Vox754]

.

3. Advice is crude extract from the article "how to ask questions", IMHO reading at least once it is usefull for everyone, especially newbies, but you removed the link. May I ask why?

Oh, I didn't mention the link because I was trying to make a different point. I took the link for granted.

The final FAQ would include the links as well, no doubt about that.



Please read relevant links before asking questions.
Mention in your question that you've read the FAQs. It gives us warm feeling, and we don't waste time by pointing back to FAQs.
Single best advice is: provide a meaningful title for your thread. Include the programming language in the title if applicable. "Please help" is a really bad title.


How to ask questions in a smart way (http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html). A classic on how to address hackers on mailing lists, newsgroups or forums.
Readability of Your Post. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=641693) You can improve the way you present code on Ubuntu forums.

[pmasiar]

Moderators would need to talk this to Administrators, who would then establish a new policy. Should this new policy apply to the whole ubuntuforums.org? Only Programming Talk?

I do not want to force any changes to other forums.

But I think we can "pilot test" this way of handling FAQs, and if it would be successful, other forums may build their own "clean" FAQs and adopt the policy.

[LaRoza]

If I were a moderator, I would give an infraction to you every month just for the fun of it. ("I'm bored, what do I do? I know, let's pay pmasiar a visit.")
Anyway, giving infractions that way is beyond LaRoza's attributions. Moderators would need to talk this to Administrators, who would then establish a new policy. Should this new policy apply to the whole ubuntuforums.org? Only Programming Talk? As you see, this requires a whole new discussion.

What if LaRoza is reported for awarding these infractions without telling Administrators? Uh oh. "LaRoza you are fired!"



As infractions have certain penalties associated with them, you would be better off just changing pmasiar's sig to point to perl monks or something, more fun and less harm.

I was ignoring that recommendation, as it is impossible, but it is not going to happen.



8. Try to avoid acronyms and jargon when giving instructions. New, or "green" users may not be able to follow you, and many will not ask you for an explanation in order to avoid looking stupid. RTFM, "Go look on google" are two inappropriate responses to a question. If you don't know the answer or don't wish to help, please say nothing instead of brushing off someone's question. Politely showing someone how you searched or obtained the answer to a question is acceptable, even encouraged.

9. If the users' question has been covered in one of the community documents, please give them a description and the links. Some useful sites to point green users are: wiki.ubuntu.com, www.ubuntu.com, the forum HOWTOs, and doc.gwos.org. You can also show the user how to search the forums or tell them about the forum search utility. If you wish to remind a user to use search tools or other resources when they have asked a question you feel is basic or common, please be very polite. Any replies for help that contain language disrespectful towards the user asking the question, i.e. "STFU" or "RTFM" are unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

[cprofitt]

Sure, create your own thread "FAQ: Tasks To Solve" or something, where original post includes all suggestions (and you can get more from my wiki), and I'll replace the link.

I will try to start on it in the next 2-3 days.

[pmasiar]

PrivateVoid already volunteered to clean up your FAQ. Let's wait for him.


No. PrivateVoid works on "Tasks to solve". So, I am waiting for your improved version of top-level FAQ portal page: FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) possible with better title?

You will see that it is quite a lot of work, for no certain gain.

[cprofitt]

No. PrivateVoid works on "Tasks to solve". So, I am waiting for your improved version of top-level FAQ portal page: FAQ: READ THIS before posting, or else! No exceptions! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=688554) possible with better title?

You will see that it is quite a lot of work, for no certain gain.


OK... so I will get started on some tasks to solve -- which I will be able to take only so far... then I will need some help with that.

[LaRoza]

I like the C and C++ threads (Compile and Troubleshooting), and I think a Java one should be created, but what other language needs one?

I think D might need one, but rarely do we get such questions.

It would be too much clutter to have one for Perl, Python, and Ruby. A single script language thread might be enough. (Hey, I think I will do that one.)

<edit>
For scripting languages: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=692720
</edit>

[pmasiar]

but what other language needs one?

I think D might need one, but rarely do we get such questions.

So then by definition they are **not** FAQs, are they? :-)


It would be too much clutter to have one for Perl, Python, and Ruby. A single script language thread might be enough. (Hey, I think I will do that one.)

<edit>
For scripting languages: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=692720
</edit>

I think that having one for all is confusing. It is nice to see languages side-by-side for someone who is windows-shopping between languages and didn't made the mind yet, but for someone who wants info about say Lisp, reading half a page about other languages will result in one reaction: asking the question in the forum.

[aks44]

To keep us busy, here's more input...

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=693038#4

"Funnily" enough the info the OP was looking for was only two clicks away from bapoumba's sticky (1-Wybiral's languages thread / 2-pmasiar's Python guide) but somehow the OP missed it. :neutral:

EDIT: and here's one of the replies, which as often duplicates an existing FAQ instead of pointing the OP to it -_-
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4306216#post4306216

[pmasiar]

EDIT: and here's one of the replies, which as often duplicates an existing FAQ instead of pointing the OP to it -_-
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4306216#post4306216

I found interesting insight at "Forum Feedback & Help" subforum, in thread
Do we need a better FAQs section? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=375225), post #21:


why even bother spending 5min on researching a FAQ when I can post a question in 1 minute and get replies with the data within 2 min?

At least that response s/b link to FAQ, and not yet another opinion. Sigh.

[aks44]

why even bother spending 5min on researching a FAQ when I can post a question in 1 minute and get replies with the data within 2 min?At least that response s/b link to FAQ, and not yet another opinion. Sigh.

Yeah, I think we're pretty doomed to get those questions again and again. Always that "Eternal September" thing...

But we should definitely continue to organize the FAQs so that they are easy to navigate (at least for regulars). The net result being that we'll only spend a few seconds to find the relevant link, instead of a few minutes to write the answer yet another time. ;)

[LaRoza]

So then by definition they are **not** FAQs, are they? :-)

I think that having one for all is confusing. It is nice to see languages side-by-side for someone who is windows-shopping between languages and didn't made the mind yet, but for someone who wants info about say Lisp, reading half a page about other languages will result in one reaction: asking the question in the forum.

I think the C and C++ ones are great. Those languages require a bit of work to use, which is confusing if someone is doing it for the first time.

Java has the same issues, it requires sun-java6-jdk, the use of java, and then java. It needs a guide to get working.

However, most other languages don't. Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP, Shell, etc just require a few similar steps. Install the interpreter, mark as executable, shebang, and run.

That thread is only for getting them running, not learning.

[pmasiar]

82 comments later, what will be the results of this discussion, if any? Not many new persons to this discussion will read whole thread, and if they do, will be easily confused because so many different suggestions were raised.

Do we need new thread with the summary, and continue discussion?

Will we get the banner with "Read the FAQ before posting questions"?

Will we have FAQs edited by mods only, or will it be community effort?

Do we want "clean FAQs" or wiki?

I am kinda reluctant to waste any time on updating my "clean FAQ" proposal portal page because it is couple days back and only way to get it to first page is adding "bump" noise.

Do we want to start a poll on each question?

Or all this thread was the ruse to release the pressure, and no real changes are expected?

[LaRoza]

Will we get the banner with "Read the FAQ before posting questions"?

Will we have FAQs edited by mods only, or will it be community effort?

I am kinda reluctant to waste any time on updating my "clean FAQ" proposal portal page because it is couple days back and only way to get it to first page is adding "bump" noise.

Or all this thread was the ruse to release the pressure, and no real changes are expected?

I will ask about the banner today.

I think the FAQ's should be in the hands of the OP. The stickied portal page (which could be the existing one with a hefty edit), would probably benefit from being mod only, because that is the only way a closed thread can be edited.

If you edit your post, it will not bump it. I have been going back to it, so it isn't lost to us or me at least.

To sum up:

* I think the multiple FAQ threads with a single portal page is a good idea
* I think the banner is a good idea, I will propose that today
* It isn't a ruse.

[LaRoza]

See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=694551

I am opening it now for discussion.

[LaRoza]

I asked about the banner, worked on the sticky, and now its feedback time :-)


Oh, here is the banner I suggested, see the wine subforum for what it would look like.


Before posting, please check the Programming Talk FAQ's (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=606009) first. It may answer your query better than a new thread.

[pmasiar]

See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=694551

I am opening it now for discussion.

I assume that linked thread s/b discussion about the FAQ, in it's current reincarnation? Maybe you should change discussion thread title from "Temporary Thread, Ignore This", so people will not ignore it? :-)

And maybe you should link discussion thread from FAQ?

[LaRoza]

I assume that linked thread s/b discussion about the FAQ, in it's current reincarnation? Maybe you should change discussion thread title from "Temporary Thread, Ignore This", so people will not ignore it? :-)

And maybe you should link discussion thread from FAQ?

I meant to do that, thanks. I didn't notice.