UK Schools in deperate need of Linux! ENRAGED USER!!!

[fatality_uk]

My wife is a teacher. She has been told that she can not use a photocopier to reproduce the worksheets SHE has CREATED at HOME due to budget cuts!! WHAT THE HECK IS THIS??? Her school had an IT roll out 18 months ago and is still paying for it. And will be over the next year as well. They have a digital whiteboard, BUT it isn't operational right now due to a server failure. I will let you guess the OS behind it. This is a disgrace!!!

I'd like to know if there is a national UK project, team or plan somewhere to promote Linux within schools? I really feel I want to contribute to a project like this. Schools in the UK are being bled dry from IT consultants and you know who! It's not the teachers who will suffer. It's our kids. If there isn't. Then by god I'll start one.

[p_quarles]

Teaching: the one profession in which one is more likely to donate office supplies than steal them.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. Of course, if you start such a group, your main obstacle will be the total cost of ownership FUD being spread by Microsoft. Implementing Linux in a school system definitely won't be free, but MS is doing what it can to make it out to be more expensive. In short: good luck. You're going to need it. ;)

[KiwiNZ]

inux may not reduce their IT costs , it may increase them. So one needs to be carefull before taking the plunge.

How extensive was the IT roll out ?
Do the kids have their own PC,s ?

Oh and how long has the whiteboard been down?

[oldb0y]

Why don't you start your own business promoting Linux to schools? You could probably recruit some workforce here on the forum;)

[fatality_uk]

Thanks for the responses guys. The whiteboard has been down since first period yesterday. The techies were intoday bodging it.

There is a PC suite. 45 PC's I believe. The kids don't own a PC as such but are given time during the week to use them. It's an inner city school and not alot of resources. And p_quarles your right. She had to buy pens and felt for heavens sake.

KiwiNZ. Do you know of any sites/templates that I could use to calulate T.C.O? We have InSight at work doing a small sclae study but that costs.

oldb0y - Like the suggestion. Possibility!

[Namtabmai]

As a tech guy working in UK education, I can understand this. Please don't blame the tech guy.
If I had to hazard a guess, I think the teacher holding the budget sheet saw a white board and various other equipment and thought "Great, we *NEED* that" and went and brought it. Then of course once it get put in place the IT people tell her they'll need some money for hardware/software//training in order to get it up and running, and of course there's no money left.

I've seen it before in the Universities I've worked for. £5000 on a microfilm scanner, but no one thought to buy the SCSI card/cable or even a machine to use with it. A gorgeous 30" Apple display, but then buy a Mac mini with a maximum display of 1200x800 to use with it.

The fault isn't with the OS, it's with the person who has just enough IT knowledge to be dangerous who's holding the purse strings.

[KiwiNZ]

Hi have my own template at work ,unfortunately I am off at this time convelesing .

[KiwiNZ]

As a tech guy working in UK education, I can understand this. Please don't blame the tech guy.
If I had to hazard a guess, I think the teacher holding the budget sheet saw a white board and various other equipment and thought "Great, we *NEED* that" and went and brought it. Then of course once it get put in place the IT people tell her they'll need some money for hardware/software//training in order to get it up and running, and of course there's no money left.

I've seen it before in the Universities I've worked for. £5000 on a microfilm scanner, but no one thought to buy the SCSI card/cable or even a machine to use with it. A gorgeous 30" Apple display, but then buy a Mac mini with a maximum display of 1200x800 to use with it.

The fault isn't with the OS, it's with the person who has just enough IT knowledge to be dangerous who's holding the purse strings.

Some very valid points here.

[Ardrias]

As a tech guy working in UK education, I can understand this. Please don't blame the tech guy.
If I had to hazard a guess, I think the teacher holding the budget sheet saw a white board and various other equipment and thought "Great, we *NEED* that" and went and brought it. Then of course once it get put in place the IT people tell her they'll need some money for hardware/software//training in order to get it up and running, and of course there's no money left.

I've seen it before in the Universities I've worked for. £5000 on a microfilm scanner, but no one thought to buy the SCSI card/cable or even a machine to use with it. A gorgeous 30" Apple display, but then buy a Mac mini with a maximum display of 1200x800 to use with it.

The fault isn't with the OS, it's with the person who has just enough IT knowledge to be dangerous who's holding the purse strings.

This is so true. I'm also a victim of these horrible things :(

[fatality_uk]

Namtabmai. Please don't think I was having a go at school techies as such. The order for the system upgrade came from the LEA as I understand it. I know operational support workers usually do a great job.

I was narked at the sheer insanity of having thousands of £££'s of kit that isnt properly supported which means KIDS are going to be left without proper teaching aides. No fault at the coal face. The suits in the LEA I lay the blame at.

I actually don't have kids yet. But I will be calling the Local Education Authority in the morning for sure to find out who is responsible for IT procurement and ask some of the questions that maybe weren't asked at his last evaluation!!! Sorry if I am coming across all self rightious but I am FUMING!!! We are planning to start a family this year and it scares me to think in a few years time, my child could be in the situation of having less than adequate resources to deal with a modern lifestyle due to decisions made by people now!

[fatality_uk]

Hi have my own template at work ,unfortunately I am off at this time convelesing .

Sorry to hear that. Hope you recover soon. If you do manage to remember when you return to work, would you please be so kind as to forward that to me? Most appreciated.

[ugm6hr]

I'd like to know if there is a national UK project, team or plan somewhere to promote Linux within schools? I really feel I want to contribute to a project like this. Schools in the UK are being bled dry from IT consultants and you know who! It's not the teachers who will suffer. It's our kids. If there isn't. Then by god I'll start one.

My sister's a secondary school teacher in the UK. I know how that budget cuts thing goes... Teaching chemistry with no practicals - mad, eh?

As for Linux in schools - there is an Open Source promotion group:
http://www.schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/Main_Page

Unfortunately, the list of "Case Studies" is hardly inspiring...

[fatality_uk]

My sister's a secondary school teacher in the UK. I know how that budget cuts thing goes... Teaching chemistry with no practicals - mad, eh?

As for Linux in schools - there is an Open Source promotion group:
http://www.schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/Main_Page

Unfortunately, the list of "Case Studies" is hardly inspiring...

Thanks for that link. Most sppreciated There's a bit of info out there it seems

http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/specialistschools/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/page/linux_case_study_orwell_high_school.html

[Namtabmai]

I was narked at the sheer insanity of having thousands of £££'s of kit that isnt properly supported which means KIDS are going to be left without proper teaching aides. No fault at the coal face. The suits in the LEA I lay the blame at.

As far as I can tell that's the beauty of "equipment budgets", they have thousands to spend on equipment, which usually has to be all spent unless you want a lower equipment budget next year. And once it's all in place it's like getting blood out of a stone to get more money for all the bits some one forgot about. And paying for training comes from a different budget, brought a load of equipment but need an extra IT person to support it? Good luck, it will never happen. Hell, I wanted my department to buy me a Safari Online subscription (only about £50 a year) so I could learn new things, and they wouldn't buy it. Of course they where more than happy to buy me £100+ on books from the equipment budget. :(
My boss is a big Mac fan and has control of the budget, which is why we have a Mac mini+30" display where I can see the pixels on the cursor, a 24" iMac that's being used as nothing but a wireless router, a unused eMac and best of all over £6000 on a Mac XServer+XRaid that's just a glorified SAN.

Sorry I've got a lot of rage on this subject, being a hard worked and diverse programming in an University department, but on the same pay level as every other IT support person because the University doesn't comprehend/have a pay scale for such a person narks me. I love my jobs but it's under paided by about £5000 compared to if I worked in a proper company. All because they don't really seem to understand IT at the higher levels.

[p_quarles]

My boss is a big Mac fan and has control of the budget, which is why we have a Mac mini+30" display where I can see the pixels on the cursor, a 24" iMac that's being used as nothing but a wireless router, a unused eMac and best of all over £6000 on a Mac XServer+XRaid that's just a glorified SAN.
This makes me want to laugh and cry simultaneously. I mean, aside from the money wasted on hardware, that's also wasting electricity in bundles. Frustration understood.

[Hightide]

. Schools in the UK are being bled dry from IT consultants and you know who! It's not the teachers who will suffer. It's our kids. If there isn't. Then by god I'll start one.

I understand your frustration at the current bias to MS in the UK schools. Unfortunately schools are bound to follow BECTA (http://www.becta.org.uk/) agency rules when procuring school ICT infrastructure which as I understand exclude open source. Such is the power of MS Enterprise Agreements.

Lobbying MP's would be a good start.

:)

[fatality_uk]

Thanks Hightide. That's a really interesting link! I didn't know that open source was precluded. Going to read that in depth.

Anyway. Kicked into action.
http://www.freewebs.com/linuxforschools/
Nothing there yet but will be by the weekend.

http://publications.becta.org.uk/display.cfm?resID=25909

They are aware that FOSS exists at least!! Page from 2005

[Casual Fan]

I understand your frustration at the current bias to MS in the UK schools. Unfortunately schools are bound to follow BECTA (http://www.becta.org.uk/) agency rules when procuring school ICT infrastructure which as I understand exclude open source. Such is the power of MS Enterprise Agreements.

Lobbying MP's would be a good start.

:)

And I thought George W. Bush's "No Child Left Behind"* was bad...:)

*This is a close cousin to his fiscal policy, "No Child Left a Dime."

[ssam]

becta are beginning to understand



When specifying new systems, schools and colleges should normally insist on the desktop having access to office productivity software that is capable of opening editing and saving documents in the international standard ODF, and setting it as the default file format. Such products should be procured on the basis that they can be made available to students, teachers and parents for home use without attracting additional licensing costs.


http://news.becta.org.uk/display.cfm?cfid=1943053&cftoken=dfb63b2fe4e2aa10-60AE7EE6-D18B-168A-734FB4F648A41B15&resID=35287&page=1658&catID=1633

[ugm6hr]

I understand your frustration at the current bias to MS in the UK schools. Unfortunately schools are bound to follow BECTA (http://www.becta.org.uk/) agency rules when procuring school ICT infrastructure which as I understand exclude open source. Such is the power of MS Enterprise Agreements.

Lobbying MP's would be a good start.

:)

Microsoft have negotiated contracts, but BECTA are not anti open-source:
http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=25909

[fatality_uk]

Great input guys thanks. Please keep it coming :D

[ugm6hr]

Microsoft have negotiated contracts, but BECTA are not anti open-source:
http://publications.becta.org.uk/download.cfm?resID=25909

Most of the documents on their site are also Open format.

This is another organisation promoting open source in schools. They seem to realise that Becta are disadvantaging open-source (? inadvertently).
http://www.openschoolsalliance.org/the-issues

[oldb0y]

Do Canonical have any aim at getting Edubuntu into schools?
Perhaps you could contact them for some info.

[ericesque]

"The whiteboard has been down since first period yesterday"

...is it just me, or is this in no way unreasonable?

Anyway, Linux isn't going to solve this problem. If the school can afford a digital whiteboard, the cost of the OS and office suite isn't bleeding them dry. Perhaps the system should reevaluate their expenditures. You could buy hundreds of thousands of bic pens and a few yards of felt for the price of one digital whiteboard.

I'm not saying Linux is wrong for schools-- but it's not a solution to the problem that most people prescribe it for. If we free up funds by using FOSS software, the people with the credit cards are not going to suddenly start spending those funds any better (smarter?) than they spend their current budget.

[beesthorpe]

Actually I thought Becta were encouraging schools to use free software, for example see http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39196487,00.htm

[fatality_uk]

"The whiteboard has been down since first period yesterday"

...is it just me, or is this in no way unreasonable?

Anyway, Linux isn't going to solve this problem. If the school can afford a digital whiteboard, the cost of the OS and office suite isn't bleeding them dry. Perhaps the system should reevaluate their expenditures. You could buy hundreds of thousands of bic pens and a few yards of felt for the price of one digital whiteboard.

I'm not saying Linux is wrong for schools-- but it's not a solution to the problem that most people prescribe it for. If we free up funds by using FOSS software, the people with the credit cards are not going to suddenly start spending those funds any better (smarter?) than they spend their current budget.

Absolutely right. The money needs to be spent in the right way!!! I think Linux could play a part here. I am not being a zealot about it. It wont fit all schools. But where possible, I think efforts should be made to help introduce FOSS to possibly free up resources and give our schools and children choice!

[Hightide]

thanks for the welcome clarification :)

With the desktop applications the schools definitely have a choice MS or OSS.

with big school ICT infrastructure procurements, the local education authority as a stakeholder has to be involved (funding etc) and invariably they go for MS type solutions.


by the way, we use MOODLE http://moodle.org/ and love it.

great discussion :lolflag:

[fatality_uk]

Cheers Hightide. I think I heard about Moodle a while back, but, as with so many things, never paid it much attention. Wasn't relevant to what I was doing!

Is Moodle used throughout or just within ICT classes? Looks like a pretty complete package!

[el_ricardo]

schools (or Ed Balls) need to learn that throwing money at IT resources isn't going to help kids learn! My mum is head of art at a school near leeds, and the majority of her budget, for ART is going towards IT, not out of her choice, but the head teacher's. This is due to these stupid targets that have been set for schools by the government!

the point i'm making is that a subject like art doesn't need IT, but due to these targets, money is being spent on it, and as a result enough money to supply an entire department is basically being wasted, hence budget cuts!

[fatality_uk]

schools (or Ed Balls) need to learn that throwing money at IT resources isn't going to help kids learn! My mum is head of art at a school near leeds, and the majority of her budget, for ART is going towards IT, not out of her choice, but the head teacher's. This is due to these stupid targets that have been set for schools by the government!

the point i'm making is that a subject like art doesn't need IT, but due to these targets, money is being spent on it, and as a result enough money to supply an entire department is basically being wasted, hence budget cuts!

I am going to dig into this. It seems that there isn't a coordinated strategy for IT. If your Mum is being forced to spend on IT for art, then there's something wrong, somewhere!!!

[Hightide]

Is Moodle used throughout or just within ICT classes? Looks like a pretty complete package!

yeah, Moodle is very popular in the UK Further Education sector colleges and its the key OSS thats mentioned in all of the discussion forums in which I would participate.

I think it may have a linux version

:)

[Pethegreat]

I know how you feel about technology and schools. I just moved into a new school. We have several hundred thousand dollars worth of stage equipment(Lights, speakers, control boards, etc) but most of it is never going to be used. We have a soundboard with 48 inputs, we only use 12. We have all this effects equipment, but it is not needed.

The computer setup is worse though. They bought these cameras for every computer, but they put the wrong software on the computers. We have one person to fix/maintain a few hundred computers and dozens of servers in 5 schools. Stuff is running OK now, but in the coming years all this technology is going to become a pain.

[Joeb454]

Linux is actually supported at my University :) It's quite nice.

They're running a Fedora server, which is good because it means I can ssh in or ftp in and grab all my work from home really easily :)

[fatality_uk]

Spoke to the Council/LEA. It felt like I was asking for peoples bank PIN numbers asking for a document which outlines the IT strategy within the area. "What do you want it for? Will you be publishing it? Who will see this document?"

I have had to make a "Formal" request, in writing, NO EMAILS, to see this, whatever it is!

I am writing an open letter which I will post to the following people:
http://www.dfes.gov.uk/aboutus/whoswho/ministers.shtml

The letter wil be available on my site over the weekend. I would like, if possible, additional contributions from people within this forum who would like to voice an opinion.

Please no post about "LINUX JUST ROCKS" ;)
If something can be done, it needs reasoned, logical arguments to drive it forward.

Any real world experience or examples of how Linux can bring positive benfits within education would be very welcome. I have collected a few examples already which will be included. Even if you don't live in the UK, examples from anywhere would be helpful.

One point I will be making clear. If ANYTHING happens, and god knows it needs to, then this WONT be an excuse to reduce education spending. ANY savings that can be made, if there are any to be made, will have to remain within the UK Schools budget and hopefully go towards providing more teachers, equipment(the right kind) and support.


From the departments 5 year strategy document
"At present, the bulk of school funding does
not come to local authorities as hard cash. It
comes as a theoretical planning total based on
a range of factors, and there is no guarantee
that it will be spent on education."

Semi-Rant over

[Iehova]

As a sixth form student at a school which over the last few years has outfitted the vast majority of its classrooms with electronic whiteboards, I can categorically say that they're utterly awful.

My economics teachers, bless 'em, were the only ones I know of who ever made an attempt to actually use the boards (certainly none of my other teachers ever did), and they pressed on for a few weeks, continually struggling to get the boards' drawing features to work (and calibrating, and re-calibrating ad infinitum). Eventually they, like the rest of the teaching staff, gave up entirely and now every time they want to write on a board, we all have to turn around and face the trusty old-school non-electronic whiteboard.

Nowadays, these white elephants only seem to get used at the end of term for watching videos.

To think, all those thousands of pounds could have been spent on useful things, like books?

Anyway, I strongly believe in Linux for schools, so if you need any help I'll be around.

Also, here's another case study for you: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/Skegness

[mnemosyne]

As a sixth form student at a school which over the last few years has outfitted the vast majority of its classrooms with electronic whiteboards, I can categorically say that they're utterly awful.

My economics teachers, bless 'em, were the only ones I know of who ever made an attempt to actually use the boards (certainly none of my other teachers ever did), and they pressed on for a few weeks, continually struggling to get the boards' drawing features to work (and calibrating, and re-calibrating ad infinitum). Eventually they, like the rest of the teaching staff, gave up entirely and now every time they want to write on a board, we all have to turn around and face the trusty old-school non-electronic whiteboard.

Nowadays, these white elephants only seem to get used at the end of term for watching videos.

To think, all those thousands of pounds could have been spent on useful things, like books?

Anyway, I strongly believe in Linux for schools, so if you need any help I'll be around.

Also, here's another case study for you: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/Skegness

My school just got those whiteboards too. They are never used, and seem to be present to make the school look good. If only they spent the money on textbooks or something we would actually use.

[quinnten83]

a little resourcefulness goes a long way.
Check out this youtube film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ&feature=related).
cost of a wiimote, €40. IR leds? dunno,but less than €10.
Software can be downloaded freely from the website.
Sure it looks funky, but it works.
you might have to load the software in wine,though...

[spamzilla]

I'm an IT technician for a school in England and while I use and promote Linux/Ubuntu where I can, it just isn't feabible to use in a school. We have over 100 different software packages which are used daily, and none of which have a linux version. Classes just wouldn't be able to function as they currently do.

If you want to setup such a group promoting Linux/Ubuntu, try getting businesses/offices using it and then maybe software/hardware manufacturers will pay more notice to us!

[fatality_uk]

Thanks for that Iehova.

I have started with a very simple page/s. Linux For Schools (http://www.freewebs.com/linuxforschools/)

It's just a place holder for now with a bit of info. Most of this weekend has been spent researching the background and finding a lot of information. Didn't have time to collate it all. Also, as you can see I am not a graphic designer :) I will also this week put £500 (Wish it could be more but my surname isn't Shuttleworth I am afraid) into an account to help with costs, hosting etc when required. Don't worry I AM NOT asking for any cash from anyone ;)

The next few weeks I want to spend building the document base and building a single case study report. Once this is done, I plan to use these to build a number of preparatory worksheets that can be used to see how applicable Linux is for each school.

I have started work on a number of project plans that map out a hardware/software requirements matrix. Hopefully this should show a T.C.O. comparison.

The final aim is to build a working "conference room pilot" model that will reduce the input require d by teaching staff and LEA etc, so that a realistic evaluation can be carried out in a matter of weeks.

Thanks for the offer of help. I'll PM you with some details.

Anyone else reading this. Please feel free to contribute. I would like experiences from anywhere. Tips advice or offers of help greatly appreciated.

many thanks

[Xbehave]

"Linux may not reduce their IT costs , it may increase them. So one needs to be carefull before taking the plunge."
While linux may cost more, most arguments for this are based around higher maintenance costs. For any non-us country, government spending this make it an easy choice
1) spend the money on people and thus keep the money in your economy (even if its slightly more)
2) send money to an other country

there is also the lower hardware cost of a Linux system
There is also generally gives lower hardware costs and lower software costs


Linux is actually supported at my University :) It's quite nice.

They're running a Fedora server, which is good because it means I can ssh in or ftp in and grab all my work from home really easily :)
Fortunately university's are full of academics and so full of linux, my university runs alot of linux slim clients to wts windows server,
However in my experience IT teachers are idiots (not the tech guys but the teacher). The whole hierarchy of school IT systems at my school was messed up. All the IT stuff was sorted by the head of IT (who in my case was a b******ng idiot), the tech guy who for some reason liked me (my theory is that he hated the head of IT too) just had to fix the mistakes the head of IT had made (e.g since i left they started using wts, however all the computers still run windows locally too and require you to log in twice!)

A key change is that, all the spending power should go to the tech guy, who in a school with art / language / IT / teachers / DT computers, can judge the needs alot better than a teacher! Investing in a good tech guy will also save money as the whole system will run better in linux/windows (auto-suspending idle computers)! A third advantage would be that he doesnt teach, so he has the time to go around and find out what the teachers need.

IMO tho switching to linux is not feasible for schools as they need to teach kids MS office ( sorry but while gnumeric & abiword are good OO doesnt cut it and linux only apps may not be usable at home)

[fatality_uk]

I'm an IT technician for a school in England and while I use and promote Linux/Ubuntu where I can, it just isn't feabible to use in a school. We have over 100 different software packages which are used daily, and none of which have a linux version. Classes just wouldn't be able to function as they currently do.

If you want to setup such a group promoting Linux/Ubuntu, try getting businesses/offices using it and then maybe software/hardware manufacturers will pay more notice to us!

I appreciate the input spamzilla. But from speaking to friends this weekend who teach at large schools, and in fect run departments within schools, the curriculum would fit in some cases to using Linux. Part of the model I was thrashing out this weekend actually looked at using WINE as well as things like SeamlessRDP to facilitate some of these roadblocks.

[macogw]

I understand your frustration at the current bias to MS in the UK schools. Unfortunately schools are bound to follow BECTA (http://www.becta.org.uk/) agency rules when procuring school ICT infrastructure which as I understand exclude open source. Such is the power of MS Enterprise Agreements.

Lobbying MP's would be a good start.

:)

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006067
BECTA just told schools to avoid Vista and Office2k7. Also said to avoid MS Office in general because it doesn't support ODF, so they should go to a free alternative.

[fatality_uk]

"Linux may not reduce their IT costs , it may increase them. So one needs to be carefull before taking the plunge."
While linux may cost more, most arguments for this are based around higher maintenance costs. For any non-us country, government spending this make it an easy choice
1) spend the money on people and thus keep the money in your economy (even if its slightly more)
2) send money to an other country

there is also the lower hardware cost of a Linux system
There is also generally gives lower hardware costs and lower software costs


Fortunately university's are full of academics and so full of linux, my university runs alot of linux slim clients to wts windows server,
However in my experience IT teachers are idiots (not the tech guys but the teacher). The whole hierarchy of school IT systems at my school was messed up. All the IT stuff was sorted by the head of IT (who in my case was a b******ng idiot), the tech guy who for some reason liked me (my theory is that he hated the head of IT too) just had to fix the mistakes the head of IT had made (e.g since i left they started using wts, however all the computers still run windows locally too and require you to log in twice!)

A key change is that, all the spending power should go to the tech guy, who in a school with art / language / IT / teachers / DT computers, can judge the needs alot better than a teacher! Investing in a good tech guy will also save money as the whole system will run better in linux/windows (auto-suspending idle computers)! A third advantage would be that he doesnt teach, so he has the time to go around and find out what the teachers need.

IMO tho switching to linux is not feasible for schools as they need to teach kids MS office ( sorry but while gnumeric & abiword are good OO doesnt cut it and linux only apps may not be usable at home)

Thanks Xbehave. Part of this is to change the culture in schools. Dumping Linux in a high school might not be the best way forward, I agree. However, there will be cases in which Linux might be a suitable fit. In those cases, wouldn't it be nice if a lot of the leg work could be done by people here and reduce the personal time teachers would have to give up to investigate this?

In addition (and I will get some posts after this I am sure telling me that I wont have a hope in hell) I want the UK government to address IT in schools. It's not good enough that valuable resources are being wasted day in and day out by bad planning.

If I spent £5,000 and NEVER used a piece of equipment, my MD would, quite rightly, drag me in front of him and ask serious questions. But this happens in schools and people don't question it. A coherent IT policy needs to be driven from from central government to LEA and then to schools.

[ugm6hr]

IMO tho switching to linux is not feasible for schools as they need to teach kids MS office ( sorry but while gnumeric & abiword are good OO doesnt cut it and linux only apps may not be usable at home)

It has been just over 10 years since I was at school, but my sister is a science teacher.

Apart from pretty basic word-processing for assignments, DTP for posters, internet for research / online revision, and potentially equation editing (for maths / science), what else is required by school students?

I can't see why OO.org isn't up to this. OO.org is also available in a USB for Windows users now, so the kids could use it with little difficulty anywhere: http://portableapps.com/

In fact, didn't BECTA had pretty positive comments about OO?

[fatality_uk]

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006067
BECTA just told schools to avoid Vista and Office2k7. Also said to avoid MS Office in general because it doesn't support ODF, so they should go to a free alternative.

WOW. See we have only been at it 5 mins and already they are listening ;)

Thanks for the heads up macogw. Most appreciated.

Very positive article!

[frup]

I really can't understand how a school can need over 100 packages! Universities yeah... but school?

[Methuselah]

http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006067
BECTA just told schools to avoid Vista and Office2k7. Also said to avoid MS Office in general because it doesn't support ODF, so they should go to a free alternative.

Ha, I was just about to post that.
I think the only thing holding most people back is the numerous applications they already use which only run on windows. For may people/institutions linux makes sense, except for the programs they will not be able to use anymore. Some of which are special purpose and don't have readily available linux equivalents.

Wine is probably more important to linux/altos adoption than we realise.It's necessary to get over the historial realiance on the Windows API by providing an alternative implementation with the same interface. Unforutunately, it's not a fully documented and open thing but a gnarly proprietary set of functions.

[bobbocanfly]

I really can't understand how a school can need over 100 packages! Universities yeah... but school?

At my school we go through about 2 text/code editors a week, but the thing is they all pale in comparison to good old gedit. Last week we used NVU (which doesnt store indentation :confused:) and Taco (which was just rubbish). It wont surprise me if there are 100 applications on a computer, only about 5 or 6 which are ever used.

[fatality_uk]

Ha, I was just about to post that.
I think the only thing holding most people back is the numerous applications they already use which only run on windows. For may people/institutions linux makes sense, except for the programs they will not be able to use anymore. Some of which are special purpose and don't have readily available linux equivalents.

Wine is probably more important to linux/altos adoption than we realise.It's necessary to get over the historial realiance on the Windows API by providing an alternative implementation with the same interface. Unforutunately, it's not a fully documented and open thing but a gnarly proprietary set of functions.

That's true. There's no getting away from the fact that Windows will be required in some schools. But using something like a migration toolkit" might show some schools that it is possible. Just to be clear. I don't see this being a case of "switch off Windows Friday and use Linux on Monday". Just not practical. However, a phased implementation might be possible and with tight discipline on how that is achieved, not an unreasonable concept.

[Hightide]

If you want to setup such a group promoting Linux/Ubuntu, try getting businesses/offices using it and then maybe software/hardware manufacturers will pay more notice to us!

A core point Spamzilla about promoting linux solutions in the corporate sector as well as our local education authorities.

I am an IT programme manager in the NHS with a dual boot setup at the office XP and Ubuntu.

We are up against the power of the MS Enterprise agreements and the feeling at top management level in the NHS that the IT infrastucture needs the backup of a big corporation, namely MS.

Of course we can start from the bottom up with individuals trying their dual XP/linux hoping in the long run to permeate the linux plus option to higher levels. Who's good at climbing mountains!!:)

look how MS reacted when the chinese authorities were going to mandate OSS on PC's; they reduced Office to $2...

:)

[Xbehave]

Apart from pretty basic word-processing for assignments, DTP for posters, internet for research / online revision, and potentially equation editing (for maths / science), what else is required by school students?

I can't see why OO.org isn't up to this.

Try ploting data on a graph, adding a line of best fit, then getting the equation
ms office, easy
gnumeric, clear way of doing it
OO :S i tried converting a friend but if OO can do it in a way either of us see she had to go back to cracked MS office.
This is the sort of thing you need to do in science.
DT departments often use CAD
Language deparments use language software (im not sure if there are linux options here)
IT classes have to teach VB (this is a serious problem actually, wed be much better of with python or another human readable language even if it doesnt give graphical interfaces easily (making a VB program will never be usefull)

@Hightide
the NHS is another place where my argument of spending more on people not software makes sense. Also Novel have a good set of enterprise solutions, alot of the realtime tech support stuff could probably help doctors (I cant remember the particulars but basically if a tech guy had a problem which he couldn't solve he could get instant and delayed advice from all available people by sending an email wich also sent instant messages to people who were online (the IM conversation could then be upscaled to a chat with a whiteboard and more users ect, and then the whole chat could be sent of to people who wern't present). maybe it got sold to me in the podcast but it all seamed seamless and useful)

[fatality_uk]

The NHS programme!!! The "Worlds BIGGEST IT project". Compares well to St. Johns primary LittleTown!! ;) The NHS project is quite a good example of what's wrong with IT planning in the UK. I am not having a go at you personally here but, there's 20 IT programme/project managers for every doctor in this project it seems to me. Recruitment agents fire emails to me monthly about yet another project manager role with the NHS!!!

My focus is not business.It's schools!!! I am sure that there are enough people trying to get Linux into business.

The problem and the solution is that schools have a lot more say in the functional spec for IT than say the NHS which due to it's nature, it centrally mandated from Whitehall. A small local primary school might well fit the profile for edubuntu. If thats the case, then why not? Another example. My wife is not sat doing coursework on my laptop. Running OpenOffice 2.3, she can open every single one of the 200+ powerpoint and word documents that she needs to look at. Not been an issue so far!

[snakeeyes]

The reason why Linux won't be going in to schools is very simple. I am a student, I will be giving my A-Level exams this year. I am not in the UK, but if u look at the syllabus for ICT set by Cambridge University, all of it requires Microsoft Office. You r supposed to learn to use Microsoft Office and use their file formats. Thats a fact and u can check the syllabus out yourself if u like.

Even in younger classes no school will want to teach young students Linux, first of all its not having a majority market share. Students may find it too difficult compared to what they probably use at home, which is Windows or OS X, and then again the examination boards require the usage of programs made by Microsoft.

[fatality_uk]

The reason why Linux won't be going in to schools is very simple. I am a student, I will be giving my A-Level exams this year. I am not in the UK, but if u look at the syllabus for ICT set by Cambridge University, all of it requires Microsoft Office. You r supposed to learn to use Microsoft Office and use their file formats. Thats a fact and u can check the syllabus out yourself if u like.

Even in younger classes no school will want to teach young students Linux, first of all its not having a majority market share. Students may find it too difficult compared to what they probably use at home, which is Windows or OS X, and then again the examination boards require the usage of programs made by Microsoft.

I'll give up now then!!!









But then again, if you re-read some of what I was saying, I am far from expecting the WHOLE of the UK schools population to leave on Friday using Windows XP and come in on Monday and have to use Ubuntu.

Seeing as your not in the UK, here's a link. I have spent most of the weekend on this site. UK Gov Curriculum Online (http://www.curriculumonline.gov.uk/Default.htm) There is indeed a heavy bias towards Microsoft. In my opinion, because until now there hasn't been a viable alternative. I think there is now. Many of the options and course material can be used in OpenOffice. I know, my wife is sitting with an Ubuntu laptop working on these same files.

take a look here. Supplier resources (http://www.curriculumonline.gov.uk/SupplierAZ/A-ZSubject.htm?sup=MSFT&p=M). Some, of this can be a straight swap out for Linux alternatives. Some can't!

This isn't a big bang solution. But I will do my best to ensure that schools have a choice. They may not take it, but at least they will know there is a choice!!!

[spamzilla]

I appreciate the input spamzilla. But from speaking to friends this weekend who teach at large schools, and in fect run departments within schools, the curriculum would fit in some cases to using Linux. Part of the model I was thrashing out this weekend actually looked at using WINE as well as things like SeamlessRDP to facilitate some of these roadblocks.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Linux OS's in schools, but myself, another techie and an experienced network manager talked bout 'ditching windows' for about an hour. We all basically think that there are no OS's which can compete in the school environment with windows (or at least our school)...not even Macs. Hopefully ina few years this will change though.

Anyway, good luck and I hope you get somewhere :guitar:

[snakeeyes]

Its not that openoffice can't do the same thing, its that we r taught how to do that stuff in Microsoft Office and they test u using Microsoft Office.

The entire computer practical examination is based on using Microsoft Office so unless there is an office suite that takes over the world or Microsoft Office suddenly just disappears then no one will bother changing the curriculum.

[Xbehave]

I think an important 1st step inst replacing windows but atleast removing the dependency on it.

@snakeeyes: i doubt people going to Cambridge are going to take more than a minute to adjust between office suits so it doesnt really matter which suit theyre taught on at school!

[fatality_uk]

The entire computer practical examination is based on using Microsoft Office

And? At one time it wasn't. Now it is. Maybe in the future it won't be! I can see a possibility for a dual approach. If the student uses MS Office, use this exam. If the student uses OO, use this exam. Microsoft does NOT supply every single application used on the curriculum or within schools.

This won't be easy and won't happen next week. But I don't see why you can't entertain the idea that it's possible?

[Iehova]

I have my brother's old ICT A level textbook here, and I have to say, I'd challenge the assertion that the subject's dependence on Windows is great. A vast amount of the course covers things like the Data Protection Act, computer crime, health and safety, how computers work, data capture etc. etc. etc.

With regards to operating systems, DOS, Windows, Mac OS, Unix and Linux are all briefly covered in chapter 20 of the book. ;) All the practical elements of the course seem to rely on very generic pieces of software (databases, word processors), and it would be very easy to update, say, "Creating a database table in MS Access" (p100) to OO.o I can't see how an IT A level would cause many problems for a linux-based school at all (at least, if this 2003/4-ish book is still fairly relevant)

My school has zillions of pieces of software installed. I can guarantee you that, like the whiteboards, the vast, vast majority of them never get used, with the exceptions being the 'big 6' (Word, Access, Excel, Powerpoint, Publisher and IE), and a couple of CAD/CAM programs for DT. Oh, and Cubase for the Music bods. In fact, it's a wonder that the school pays for most of the bloatware we have installed.

Also, yes, if my school is anything to go by, IT teaching is in a dire, dire state. I know my IT teacher didn't know a thing about computers outside of doing a mail merge in Word or making that stupid little turtle move in Logo.

That reminds me, the 1st and 2nd year IT classes use a couple of bits and bobs like Logo and a flowchart program, for which I am sure there are a billion equivalents on linux.

[Methuselah]

^^^^lol..some tag!

[ugm6hr]

Nice to see people are so enraged by this, eh?

As an NHS doctor, it is amusing (and disappointing) to see the grand NHS IT projects fall apart. While there are lots of big national projects (none of which have been successful - medical recruitment / MTAS, choose-and-book, national electronic medical records....), most Trusts have found independent solutions for things they need (electronic medical results, electronic storage / creation of correspondence, electronic drug-prescribing, digital imaging storage...). Importantly, while some of these local systems are based on generic platforms (particularly digital imaging for X-ray / echocardiography etc) revolving around Mac / Windows, the other solutions tend to be custom written (or modified) for each Trust. Interesting that those independent custom-developed programs tend to be more successful than any of the national projects...

As an aside - there is no reason why curricula shouldn't be generic - and perhaps that might be somewhere to start petitioning? If anyone has heard of the ECDL (http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.5829), they will know that generic training and examination is possible in IT.

One other thought - Sun's StarOffice (OO.org derivative with some "non-free" content) is free (as in beer, not speech) for educational users: http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/edu/solutions/staroffice.html

[el_ricardo]

some departments would definatly need windows PCs, DT departments for example would need a windows platform to run CAD packages, an IT department would need windows too. When i was at school, our IT department had a bunch of linux boxes that loaded a stripped down windows 2000 session using a citrix client, and this worked very well because it gave students the choice, and thats how i got interested in linux in the first place!

I definatly think this can go somewhere, but we need to bring our cause to the teachers, because i know that just about every teacher in england knows that the education budget has gone to pot.

a letter to the TES (times educational supplement) could be beneficial, just a quick search on the TES website brought this up (http://www.tes.co.uk/search/story/?story_id=2453502).

[Xbehave]

the thing is if the curriculum was made less biased then even idiots like my old head of IT would consider using linux (he did mention it once but i cant remember what crazy idea he had), then suppliers would offer linux machines (all our pcs were dell), then people would be able to use linux, then the curriculum would be less bias!With current levels of linux awareness i think its defiantly possible to open the system up,i think the important thing is changing the curriculum but that can only come from the top!

also spending more on tech guys for schools is defiantly needed as security in schools is shockingly bad (even for a windows system), im talking being able to do pretty much anything without even using any software. If you want to keep up with kids its no good employing the cheapest guy for the job as the tech guy. fortunalty i never did anything actually bad but i have no doubt that if id wanted i could of changed grades, etc, stuff that costs the school.

for non computer intensive stuff citrix is ideal as it can save loads on hardware (a citrix box can be stupidly lightwieght especially on a lan), but for backend stuff having it run on linux can save real money (a site running on tomcat or apache instead of windows ISS), i mean even just switching from MS office to OO would save a fair deal and allow computers to stay on XP indefinitely!
why do you say that the IT deparment would need windows. IMO theyd be the easist to switch at school we learnt office & VB then if they did java at alevel. ( ok VB would need replacing but IMO it needs replacing anyway, a backend script is always going to be much more usful than a worthless language even if it doesnt have a GUI )
the art department would be able to join the rest of the system instead of being disconnected because the IT guys didnt like apples


ok so this is completly OT but im ENRAGED TOO
*IGNORE*
OT:
my dad knows nothing about computers yet he teaches IT stuff to the MOD. Ill admit hes a good teacher and reads the manuals before he teaches but, he gets payed by his company to do pretty much nothing, while his company get paid by the goverment to do less than nothing (replace working systems with broken ones, randomly update systems, etc).
The thing is you look at poorer countries and they've already realized that its better to spend £20 on training your own IT staff and in some cased producing your own distro than to spend £10 on buying it.
Would it cost that much for the goverment to set up a competent IT department, probably, but would its save them spending the same amount 7 times over, defiantly (my dad in the space of a year was setting up one database for one department and its replacement for another (it wouldnt be so bad but the database both required bespoke software to use them)! Im just not sure the goverment would be allowed to insouce its IT no matter how good an idea it is?

(i mean even under windows its not hard to encrypt all your data, surely you could of spent a bit on getting IT training for all staff and saved the records of millions of people)
cost of gpg to encrypt data on the CDs £0,00
cost of an hourse training to show how to use gpg £5.00
cost of thousands of personal details £priceless

*STOP IGNORING*

[Sp4cedOut]

To be completely honest, I'm not sure if Linux would help your school. The cost of the windows operating system accounts for such a small portion of the computers, especially when bought in bulk. Unfortunately, in my own Linux experience, I've seen the advantages such as the UI, stability, extensive repositories, and other great things about Linux offset by the lack of hardware drivers (and the difficulty associated with that). For example, there's a good chance those digital dry erase boards your school brought do not have drivers for Linux. This is not the fault of Linux developers, but for the end user that doesn't really matter. Plus, your IT department probably doesn't have much experience with a Linux based system so there will be difficulties there.

Finally, everything isn't always Window's fault. There are numerous Windows networks that work just fine, your school's might just be poorly set up by either the IT people or the administrators.

I think it would be great if your school switched to Linux, but it might not be practical.

[Xbehave]

yeah i suppose i agree with spaced, i think a shift to pau the IT guys not the IT companies is important.
Its is however normal that the moeny saved in software is used to pay for a better IT deparment


that and opening up the curiculum

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I recommend you try to get a project hosted with Sourceforge, as Freewebs does not look good ;)
Sourceforge hosting, on the other hand, is excellent. Chances are good that they will accept a project like this. Worth a try, anyhow.


Here is a problem to add to the list of using commercial software like MS Office on school computers:

It forces students to purchase Microsoft Office and other such software at home if they want to work on their school projects on their own time - something which is often necessary (at least judging from my experience with the Canadian school system). It is especially an issue for collaborative student projects.

Okay, they could use OpenOffice at home, but since that type of software is not covered at all in the curriculum, we can't say the schools try. As far as official education is concerned, Microsoft Office is all that exists, and it is provided by God.
It is bad that students (and their parents) are required to spend so much of their own money on school supplies. I don't care what the schools have to spend; this matter stretches further!
This can also lead to something else very seriously bad: Many students are using pirated copies of MS Office. While their work is getting done, they are quietly learning to pirate software in their everyday lives. They are using that pirated software because their parents do not wish to spend $180 on software for school, because it is free to them at school anyway, and because "it is not going to hurt anything" (which is not true; this sets a bad precedent).
I think IT courses in high schools make matters even worse. I see courses using Flash, Visual Studio, VB, Dreamweaver and Fireworks. Somehow, their teachers expect (nay: Require!) students to finish projects with these programs between classes, with deadlines, when that lab is the only one in the school with that software. This is knowingly encouraging piracy, and doing nothing to further students' educations except for tying them to software, making them easy targets for big software vendors to milk.

[Bölvaður]

To begin with, I would like to apology for how long my post will probably be.

In my opinion schools shouldn't teach children how to use software, they should teach them to do things.
For an example you can say that learning how to change fonts in MS Word 2003, making all sorts of manipulation with text in only that program will be more useful than actually teaching them to write essays in number of different office suits and text editors.

We should keep that in mind when we teach our children to use the MS Office suit. Are we teaching them how to make documents in readable manner for others, make spreadsheets for small business needs and such. Or are we just teaching them that "somewhere up there you can find the tab to push and then right below it is the thingy to make the text red and big and small letters".


I've been thought turbo pascal, visual basic,c++, java, delphi, scheme, assembly from old Motorola processors and perhaps some other programming languages I might be forgetting.
It has been stressed in every school I've been in that it's not about learning the particular programming language but how to use it and some methods used in designing programs.


Also training children to know only certain software and operating system, would it mean that they're choice have been focused to only those we thought them to know? And is it even ethical?


I have started to make a tutorial website of open source software, aimed at the least computer literate in my country. People do not read text if it has more than 20 words or is in small letters and is in very strange language where the letters do not give you concrete idea of how the word actually sounds like.
So my tutorials leads you through how to get, install, setup and use (very basic usage) without the people have to read or understand anything except what they want to be doing.

The easiest way to lead people to Linux is to let them use the same software as it runs and then the next step would be to use Linux that got familiar or 'easy to understand' desktop. And they will see that there is barely any difference.



That might help my other goal. And that is to promote open source software in schools (and other governmental institutes). And promote it so that they do not feel they have to maintain it in any way, only install it for free and use it if they feel they are up for it that particular day.
The same goes for Linux. I'll try to get few computers to be dual booted or/and have virtual machine, (like my current university has).

The plan was to start going to schools with a laptop and talk to the head of the school about what they are teaching and why. Then I'd stress my concerns and demonstrate how open software is.
As I do not have a laptop atm I can only check what others are doing until I find a cheap but suitable one.


Also a project hasn't been planned and I have never heard anyone talk about, is to ask governmental institutions for the computers they are throwing away, installing lightweight distro on it and then give it away (probably to poor and students mainly).
Currently those computers are being sent to landfills or sold for almost nothing at all to their staff.
People complain about children not doing homework because of videogames. Having an old computer that runs only Linux might help.
So that might be the third project on my list if the Icelandic government will collaborate.


I am terribly sorry for my post. Probably the dullest one in this thread :)

[macogw]

IT classes have to teach VB (this is a serious problem actually, wed be much better of with python or another human readable language even if it doesnt give graphical interfaces easily (making a VB program will never be usefull)

My school taught VB for first year CS in high school, but then we went to Java. Most schools seem to just start off on Java. My friend teaches Python on thin-clients that boot from an Edubuntu server using LTSP.

[macogw]

Its not that openoffice can't do the same thing, its that we r taught how to do that stuff in Microsoft Office and they test u using Microsoft Office.

The entire computer practical examination is based on using Microsoft Office so unless there is an office suite that takes over the world or Microsoft Office suddenly just disappears then no one will bother changing the curriculum.

If you can use MS Office, you can use OOo, Corel, and Star Office....and vice-versa-every-which-way. All office suites have the same tasks and are arranged very similarly (except O2k7 which nobody cares about). Hell, Microsoft Office on a Mac is arranged *much* more closely to how OOo is (on all platforms) than to how MS Office on Windows is. Example: where do you change margins? OOo and MS Office for Mac say that's formatting your page or document. MS Office on Windows thinks it has nothing to do with formatting and everything to do with the file's properties (which seems completely ridiculous).

[snakeeyes]

I will tell u the major problem, first of all there will be changes in document formats as Office 2007 uses docx and openoffice doesn't.

If u teach a child to do something on openoffice then to him Microsoft Office will look different, he won't be used to it. Not only that, he will be learning an OS that isn't used as much as Windows is, whereas schools r going to teach u whats popular.

That will be another problem. Unless Linux gathers a lot of market share really soon, no school will bother switching.

[Xbehave]

first of all there will be changes in document formats as Office 2007 uses docx
schools have already been recommended not to switch to office 2007 as thier old office will be incompatible, with OO this doesn't happen


If u teach a child to do something on openoffice then to him Microsoft Office will look different, he won't be used to it.
the same argument could be applied to office 2007 vs old office.

Also theyres no reason that the office suits of today will look the same as the office suits of tomorrow, so teaching a kid stuff thats specific to office 2007 when hell be using 2014 when he leaves school is pointless. its better to get taught what to do not where to click

[fatality_uk]

Thanks everyone. All posts, negative or positive are helpful. It's often good to have a view from outside the centre of the storm to give some balanace. Some good points and suggestions.

By the end of this week I am hoping to have a high level "project plan" / task list to use as a base for future work. Once this is ready, i'd like to publish it and take feedback. The idea will be to then iteratively work on this over the coming weeks / months unitl there is a clear and positive objective.

I'd like to invite anyone who has read this thread and feels they might want to make a contribution to please PM me. I'd like to see this as a wider community project, not just me waving a flag on a hill, but a genuine cross distro platform that can present a meaningful, coherant and organised project. (SourceForged hopefully ;))

Any contribution, no matter how small in terms of time will be helpful. 1 hour checking for case studies would go a long way to building the background document repository that will hopefully move this project along. Thanks all!

Just read about Macadonia's choice of Linux for schools. Do we have anyone here who either lives there are can get some background details for the project please?

[xpod]

I`ve not read the whole thread but i quite believe the Schools over here could probably do with a bit more Linux.
My olders 2`s secondry school could certainly do with some of you guys as their Network Admins at the very least.Hell,i could do a better job now probably.:-k

I understand the pupils are often smarter than the admins and can usually always bypass whatever Network policies/restrictions that are in place.poxy proxies eh.
My own kids think their kinda cool because they use Linux though,as does their head of I.T.

They should possibly put him in charge of the Network as it is complete joke from what i discovered,and indeed still know from the kids.
I once found my oldest daughter....11 at the time had signed up to MYSpace or somewhere using a bogus name/email etc....from the School.
Here at home we do not allow that aspect of internet use as far as our 4 young girls go as they just dont need no MySpace to be Social.

It was pure luck that i was checking out their schools users on Myspace etc and suddenly recognized my daughters writing style,humour etc.
No Photos or real names of course but i knew it was her.[-(

I emailed the School about it all of course and apparently quite a few of the pupils were rather mythed at the tighter Network security the next day.......which did`nt last long by all accounts.

That was over a year ago now and the kids(our oldest lass especially)
now promote Common Sense and safe PC use to all their friends....and of course School Network Admins.
To a degree anyway:)

[Xbehave]

perhaps when youve written up a page you could write a petition at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/
a few points
*given the choice cost nothing, its just tweaking the curiculum
*cheaper for kids as they can use either free or microsoft
*better preperation for HE (atleast in sciences or computing)

general points
*http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/items/other_countries/index.php?
*paying people not foreign companies is better for economy

[fluteflute]

There's links to lots of petitions in the following thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=673995

[fatality_uk]

Thanks for those link Xbehave. Most useful. But I want 1000's to sign something when we have all finished the work ;)

[fatality_uk]

Have just made an application to SourceForge to host the project under academic license! Fingers crossed.

[ugm6hr]

Don't want to corrupt your project with Corporate views, but there are some Open Source IT providers who have demonstrated that they can successfully provide an IT structure that works.

This is a good example:
http://www.siriusit.co.uk/index.php/documentation/open-source-schools-ict/open-source-for-schools

On their website they have the example of an Independent School (http://www.siriusit.co.uk/index.php/clients/gov-and-edu/the-mall-school) that went fully Linux for education, with just a few Windows desktops to run their pre-existing admin software.

Presumably the independent sector has more freedom with this kind of thing at the moment.

I found the most interesting facts (assuming they are true - references are given) were in relation to ICT costs: electricity (15%) costs more than the initial hardware (10%); software licenses (10%) cost the same as hardware; all of these costs are dwarfed by support costs (65%). It is unfortunate that the support cost is made up of local human salaries in most UK schools....

Nevertheless, in the long term, the LTSP model seems obviously more suitable, with just a single server to maintain software on.

Been googling a bit, and it appears one of the major players in Whiteboards (available in UK) supports Linux via an autopackage installer: http://www2.smarttech.com/st/en-US/Products/
However, it appears that this is proprietary software (it does mention not being able to use it on non-Smart whiteboards without a licence).

[el_ricardo]

Thanks for those link Xbehave. Most useful. But I want 1000's to sign something when we have all finished the work ;)

we need to get the teachers involved!

get a letter written to TES!!!!

[Xbehave]

OT:
what you need to do is set up a wiimote whiteboard combo, taking the cost to about £30 more than the projector (still £500 ish tho). And the pens could be made by 1st years in DT for aproximatly free, it would give kids a sense of achivment to make something useful in DT, hell they could even make the hardware for 3D projectors for art classes!

ofc they could use old projectors and lcd displays and get the setup for about £150 but that would actually look abit cheap no matter how cool it would be

seriously tho the wiimote setup doesnt require any proprietory drivers or software, its incredible portable and so if its not used it can be moved to any room with a projector.

[fatality_uk]

Don't want to corrupt your project with Corporate views, but there are some Open Source IT providers who have demonstrated that they can successfully provide an IT structure that works.

Quite the contrary. I'd like corporate views. In fact, they are exactly the people who'll will need to be involved at some point.

[fatality_uk]

http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/01/22/1626228.shtml
Does anyone have $236m they can lend me ;)

Smart move. They will be seen by many as they monolithic company with a heart of gold!

[speedwell68]

As a tech guy working in UK education, I can understand this. Please don't blame the tech guy.
If I had to hazard a guess, I think the teacher holding the budget sheet saw a white board and various other equipment and thought "Great, we *NEED* that" and went and brought it. Then of course once it get put in place the IT people tell her they'll need some money for hardware/software//training in order to get it up and running, and of course there's no money left.

I've seen it before in the Universities I've worked for. £5000 on a microfilm scanner, but no one thought to buy the SCSI card/cable or even a machine to use with it. A gorgeous 30" Apple display, but then buy a Mac mini with a maximum display of 1200x800 to use with it.

The fault isn't with the OS, it's with the person who has just enough IT knowledge to be dangerous who's holding the purse strings.

You have hit the nail on the head there. I used to work for our local authorities IT support unit. Used to get that all the time. It is why I got out.