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Sporkman
January 14th, 2008, 09:08 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080114/ts_alt_afp/usautocompanyenvironmentgm_080114182505


GM to make biofuel out of garbage

32 minutes ago

DETROIT, Michigan (AFP) - General Motors Corp. is planning on making biofuel with garbage at a cost of less than a dollar a gallon, the company's chief has said.

The US automaker has entered into a partnership with Illinois-based Coskata Inc. which has developed a way to make ethanol from practically any renewable source, including old tires and plant waste.

The process is a significant improvement over corn-base ethanol because it uses far less water and energy and does not divert food into fuel.

"We are very excited about what this breakthrough will mean to the viability of biofuels and, more importantly, to our ability to reduce dependence on petroleum," said Rick Wagoner, GM's chief executive officer, on Sunday.

GM, which was late in introducing gas-electric hybrids, is the industry leader in flex-fuel vehicles that can run on gasoline blended with up to 85 percent ethanol.

It is currently producing more than a million flex-fuel vehicles a year globally and is committed to making half its production flex-fuel by 2012.

It is also introducing 16 new hybrid vehicles over the next four years, including a plug-in hybrid which can run on electricity alone, and will soon have the world's largest fuel-cell test fleet when it delivers more than 100 Chevy Equinox fuel cell vehicles to customers in the United States, Europe and Japan.

But while these may be the vehicles of the future, flex-fuel is the best "interim" solution as it will take 12 years to replace most of the vehicles currently on the road, Wagoner told reporters at the Detroit auto show.

"There is no question in my mind that making ethanol more widely available is absolutely the most effective and environmentally sound solution," Wagoner said. "And it's one that can be acted on immediately."

Coskata's first pilot plant will be up and running in the fourth quarter of 2008 and the fuel will be used on GM test vehicles.

"We will have our first commercial-scale plant making 50 to 100 million gallons of ethanol running in 2011," said Coskata chief Bill Roe.

The prestigious Argonne National Laboratory analyzed Coskata's process and found it generates up to 7.7 times the amount of energy used and reduces CO2 emissions by up to 84 percent compared with a well-to-wheel analysis of gasoline.

The process also uses less than a gallon of water to make a gallon of ethanol compared to three gallons or more for other processes.

President George W. Bush's energy policy includes plans to increase the consumption of biofuels from 7.5 billion gallons in 2012 to 36 billion gallons in 2022.

bufsabre666
January 14th, 2008, 09:13 PM
well this is good and bad, it may be cheaper but theres a study going on and and the early released data shows that biofuels may do more damage to the ozone than regular petroleum

Æniad
January 14th, 2008, 10:36 PM
People do realize that biofuels are not clean right? They're just cleaner then gasoline. Biofuel only delays the problem of global warming; it doesn't solve it.

Sporkman
January 14th, 2008, 10:39 PM
Biofuel only delays the problem of global warming; it doesn't solve it.

How so? The exclusiive use of biofuels would result in a zero net production of atmospheric CO2.

Æniad
January 14th, 2008, 10:44 PM
How so? The exclusiive use of biofuels would result in a zero net production of atmospheric CO2.

Biofuel is considered a means of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing energy security by providing an alternative to fossil fuels. However, In October 2007, Nobel Laureate Paul Crutzen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Crutzen) published findings that the release of (N2O) among the commonly used biofuels, such as biodiesel from rapeseed and bioethanol from corn (maize), can contribute as much or more to global warming than fossil fuel savings do to global cooling. - Wikipedia

forrestcupp
January 14th, 2008, 11:01 PM
Now I need to go out and buy a new $25,000 vehicle so I can save a few cents per gallon in fuel.

Sporkman
January 14th, 2008, 11:07 PM
Biofuel is considered a means of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing energy security by providing an alternative to fossil fuels. However, In October 2007, Nobel Laureate Paul Crutzen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Crutzen) published findings that the release of (N2O) among the commonly used biofuels, such as biodiesel from rapeseed and bioethanol from corn (maize), can contribute as much or more to global warming than fossil fuel savings do to global cooling. - Wikipedia

I assume the nitrogen comes from the fertilizer? Is the nitrogen recovered, or is it in the atmosphere for good, I wonder. This makes biofuels non-renewable if the nitrogen is permanently spewed into the atmosphere.

Æniad
January 14th, 2008, 11:09 PM
I assume the nitrogen comes from the fertilizer? Is the nitrogen recovered, or is it in the atmosphere for good, I wonder. This makes biofuels non-renewable if the nitrogen is permanently spewed into the atmosphere.

That's just one issue with biofuels. The demand for biofuel has increased the price of many staples like corn and have riots already in places like Italy and Mexico.

bufsabre666
January 14th, 2008, 11:12 PM
That's just one issue with biofuels. The demand for biofuel has increased the price of many staples like corn and have riots already in places like Italy and Mexico.

yeah, dont compromise the polenta and tortillas

zipperback
January 14th, 2008, 11:12 PM
People do realize that biofuels are not clean right? They're just cleaner then gasoline. Biofuel only delays the problem of global warming; it doesn't solve it.



Hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles are the best way to go.

The emissions from hydrogen fuel cells are clean! They produce H20 for their waste emissions! Yes... WATER.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

zipperback
January 14th, 2008, 11:18 PM
How so? The exclusiive use of biofuels would result in a zero net production of atmospheric CO2.


Incorrect. They produce "less", NOT "zero". Commercial biofuels such as commercial grade biodiesel, are really a mixture of pure biofuels and standard petrochemical diesel.

-zipperback
:popcorn:

Sporkman
January 14th, 2008, 11:20 PM
Hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles are the best way to go.

The emissions from hydrogen fuel cells are clean! They produce H20 for their waste emissions! Yes... WATER.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

...but hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's just an energy storage medium:

http://moistandflushable.blogspot.com/2007/12/alternative-fuels-energy-sources-vs.html

Sporkman
January 14th, 2008, 11:20 PM
Incorrect. They produce "less", NOT "zero". Commercial biofuels such as commercial grade biodiesel, are really a mixture of pure biofuels and standard petrochemical diesel.

-zipperback
:popcorn:

Note my use of "exclusive". ;)

jrusso2
January 14th, 2008, 11:36 PM
In my opinion this solution speaks to two problems at once. One is the amount of trash and where to put it.

and the second is dependence on oil.

Sounds like a good deal until hydrogen can be cost effective and produced with solar and wind power.

alwiap
January 15th, 2008, 12:19 AM
GM is finally doing things it probably should be for the first time in a while. I'm from Detroit and the economy here is horrific, due to GM and the auto industry getting wrecked by other car manufacturers, and rightly so. No one around here I know, besides GM employees, would buy a GM car right now when they could get a Toyota, Honda, or other foreign car that is a lot more dependable. Whatever can turn the economy around these parts would be great, so I hope this pans out.

Pethegreat
January 15th, 2008, 12:23 AM
Ethanol is a very poor fuel for vehicles. You need 1,5gallons of the ethanol to equal one gallon of gasoline. Ethanol also rots steel like crazy. Butanol (butane with an OH on it) is much better fuel. It won't eat steel piplines, so we can use existing infastructure. It also has an equal energy density to gasoline. The only problem is that butanol production is not efficent since it kills the microbes that make it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel

bufsabre666
January 15th, 2008, 12:25 AM
GM is finally doing things it probably should be for the first time in a while. I'm from Detroit and the economy here is horrific, due to GM and the auto industry getting wrecked by other car manufacturers, and rightly so. No one around here I know, besides GM employees, would buy a GM car right now when they could get a Toyota, Honda, or other foreign car that is a lot more dependable. Whatever can turn the economy around these parts would be great, so I hope this pans out.

well if it doesnt pan out, than for all the people in buffalo i reclaim the name "Hockey Town, USA"

alwiap
January 15th, 2008, 12:32 AM
well if it doesnt pan out, than for all the people in buffalo i reclaim the name "Hockey Town, USA"

lol i dont think we deserved that title ever, fans are crazier elsewhere (including buffalo)

Tundro Walker
January 15th, 2008, 03:06 AM
Hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles are the best way to go.

The emissions from hydrogen fuel cells are clean! They produce H20 for their waste emissions! Yes... WATER.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

American automotive manufacturers are behind the times on emissions and fuel sources...

http://www.theaircar.com/

Unfortunately, a lot of Americans are in love with the "big car", so little jobs like an air car will be hard to catch on.

However, if they start cranking that puppy out for like $5000 in the US, and it turns out to be as reliable as a Honda Civic (or more so), and gets tons more miles to the gallon (of air)...well, folks might change their mind. If they could give it a different body so it won't look like a toad on wheels, too...that might help.

Æniad
January 15th, 2008, 04:11 AM
American automotive manufacturers are behind the times on emissions and fuel sources...

http://www.theaircar.com/

Unfortunately, a lot of Americans are in love with the "big car", so little jobs like an air car will be hard to catch on.

However, if they start cranking that puppy out for like $5000 in the US, and it turns out to be as reliable as a Honda Civic (or more so), and gets tons more miles to the gallon (of air)...well, folks might change their mind. If they could give it a different body so it won't look like a toad on wheels, too...that might help.

I've read about that car, very cool. But you're right, a lot of Americans are dumb as hell when it comes to buying cars.

FranMichaels
January 15th, 2008, 06:22 AM
I've read about that car, very cool. But you're right, a lot of Americans are dumb as hell when it comes to buying cars.

I saw programs on the science channel in regard to both of these techs. Pretty amazing. The enzyme to break down the trash is modified e. coli. Regular biofuels upset me because they are made from what could be a food source. If the demand were to increase, farmland would have to increase to compensate, so say bye bye to trees and such.

As for the air car, amazing that it can run on compressed air.

And your comment... I must agree... there is some sort of love for SUVs, yet gas prices are high... Some people paying 90+ dollars to fill the gas tank... I am utterly mystified by such behavior.

Æniad
January 15th, 2008, 06:30 AM
If the demand were to increase, farmland would have to increase to compensate, so say bye bye to trees and such.

I read somewhere that it would take an area the size of Brazil to produce enough corn based ethanol to power all of the cars of the world.

FranMichaels
January 15th, 2008, 06:46 AM
I read somewhere that it would take an area the size of Brazil to produce enough corn based ethanol to power all of the cars of the world.

Disturbing. The number of cars is going up as well (not mention people too! :)). Unless people are planning on some serious carpooling, in my opinion, I think mass transit will be the way to go.

That said, there is another technology that I think is quite amazing,

http://jalopnik.com/cars/industry-news/heathrow-to-get-worlds-first-personal-rapid-transport-system-335264.php

:KS

hardyn
January 15th, 2008, 07:00 AM
its just publicity for GM... if they really wanted to amaze people they should be making efforts to get off internal combustion, not simply change fuel.

homework project: go watch "who killed the electric car". I know its not a documentary, however it does produce some insight into the auto industry would rather keep us in ICEs rather produce any real technology; espicially where GM bought and bookshelved the design for a 2nd generation NIMH battery.

toupeiro
January 15th, 2008, 08:10 AM
Some energy companies are looking at sources other than corn and sugar cane which makes up the majority of todays ethanol so we will not have a fuel source that competes with a food source. For example, Research is currently being done in the US for using algae as a renewable resource to create hydrogen, which as already mentioned in this article creates H20 as a byproduct. I don't think any energy company in the world is settling on ethanol. Ethanol is just a better means until a better, less expensive, and reliable solution is developed.

zipperback
January 15th, 2008, 12:20 PM
...but hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's just an energy storage medium


You're missing the point of my post.

Vehicles which use Hydrogen Fuel cells are CLEAN in regard to the exhaust given off.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

gn2
January 15th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Now I need to go out and buy a new $25,000 vehicle so I can save a few cents per gallon in fuel.

Just find an old VW Golf (Rabbit in US) diesel and run it on veggie oil.

For the ultimate recycling and cheap transport, in the UK some fast-food fish and chip shops will pay you to take their waste oil away.
Filtered it will run just fine in an old diesel.

My 13 year old Landrover Discovery 200TDi runs just fine on veggie oil.

jrusso2
January 15th, 2008, 05:38 PM
Just find an old VW Golf (Rabbit in US) diesel and run it on veggie oil.

For the ultimate recycling and cheap transport, in the UK some fast-food fish and chip shops will pay you to take their waste oil away.
Filtered it will run just fine in an old diesel.

My 13 year old Landrover Discovery 200TDi runs just fine on veggie oil.

Of course that would be illegal in the USA because you would not be paying the motor fuel taxes.

bufsabre666
January 15th, 2008, 05:41 PM
it is legal... to an extent, in new york state when you get your car inspected they check emissions, and id bet 99/100 elder diesels fail this so they wouldnt be street legal and if you get caught violating this its big fines

i work in an auto shop ive seen it done, im not liscenced to do inspections but my uncle is and ive "Assissted him" ((i did it, he reported he did it))

and in new york you cant even buy new diesel cars, they banned that in 99

popch
January 15th, 2008, 06:09 PM
You're missing the point of my post.

Vehicles which use Hydrogen Fuel cells are CLEAN in regard to the exhaust given off.

- zipperback


Yes.

But you can't mine or grow hydrogen. You have to rip it off some molecules, and that takes a process using energy, obviously in a form different from hydrogen. And the process which frees the hydrogen from the substance containing it may or may not be clean.

gn2
January 15th, 2008, 06:36 PM
Of course that would be illegal in the USA because you would not be paying the motor fuel taxes.

In the UK the fuel taxes are significantly higher which is why veggie oil is cheaper.
Private individuals are allowed to use 2500 litres of veggie oil a year without paying fuel tax.
Diesel fuel in the UK is currently £1.08 per litre ($8.04 per U.S. gallon)

Sporkman
January 15th, 2008, 10:47 PM
You're missing the point of my post.

Vehicles which use Hydrogen Fuel cells are CLEAN in regard to the exhaust given off.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

It's not CLEAN unless the energy source used to obtain the hydrogen is clean. ;)

hardyn
January 15th, 2008, 11:20 PM
It's not CLEAN unless the energy source used to obtain the hydrogen is clean. ;)

Its what the media wants us to forget... you have to follow the energy source to sink to determine if it is clean...

producing, compressing, and storing hydrogen results in a net 50% yeld of the thermal energy contained within it.

DoubleClicker
January 16th, 2008, 02:34 AM
There is an alternative fuel technology that is superior to all the others, that very few people seem to know about. That is the Zinc-Air fuel cell (http://ubuntuforums.org/www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/The_Zinc_Air_Solution.pdf).

gn2
January 16th, 2008, 02:59 AM
Let's not forget the Bistromathic Drive and the Infinite Improbability Drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistromathic_drive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive

rfruth
January 16th, 2008, 03:09 AM
generous motors to the rescue :confused:

Tundro Walker
January 16th, 2008, 05:30 AM
I've read about that car, very cool. But you're right, a lot of Americans are dumb as hell when it comes to buying cars.

I'm sort of split on that thinking. On the one hand, a lot of American's only buy what they're offered. There's lots of compact, fuel-efficient cars in Europe, but they never cross the pond to here, so if we don't get to see them, we don't buy them.

However, they don't cross the pond for 2 reasons...

1) American Automotive companies do market research to see what folks want to buy...it seems that what they want to buy is really large trucks, suv's and luxo-cruisers that only get 20mpg on a good day.

2) More importantly, American Automotive companies have always asked the government to bail their asses out of trouble, with increased tariff taxes on imports and other shenanigans.

It wasn't until the 60's when Japan made a car cheap enough that it could compete over here. American Auto's response to that was to cry to the government to do something to drive off the competetion. Finally, the gov't said "look, you're a business...you have to compete or go the way of the dodo." They've been doing ok, but foreign cars still beat the pants off them. Seems American Auto companies are still fixated on creating more powerful engines than more fuel efficient or economical ones...it's the habitual rut they've gotten into.

So, I'm hoping these air-cars, smart-cars, etc will make a big invasion over here soon. With $4/gallon gas prices, I'll be more than happy to drive around in a $5000 air-car, saving money in the bank, 401k & IRA, while all these "keeping up with the Jones'" types drive their gas-guzzlers and live life in debt.

Æniad
January 16th, 2008, 05:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImGaraPrEo8