What ubuntu needs?

[overcast]

I want to share my ideas on ubuntu.I wanted to share it on wiki but some of the issues need immediate attention like installer,LiveCD etc.I hope you look on to these issues,and can tell me how you can handle them.I dont know what my email can do in such big community,hope my issues will not be ignored.Anyway thanks for reading them.

[ Difficulty of installation ]:- It is initially a high barrier to adoption of ubuntu for any newbie.Installation Process is confusing,time consuming for most of newbies.
<Suggestion>We can prefer fast n easy Graphical installer like Mepis Distro[mepis.org]

[ Live CD ]:-Compared to other distros like Knoppix,Mepis,Mandriva Ubuntu's Live CD is much slow at detecting hardware,network,disks etc.Boot time is also more than Knoppix,Mepis.
<Suggestion>Instead of distributing Live CD+Install CD,We can make Installable Live CD like Mepis.We can add another CD for HowTOs,Missing packages from Programming & developement related softwares.

[ Softwares ]: Softwares that comes up with ubuntu is limited,so in order to add more requires internet conection or Debian based CD's.Instead wasting space in Live CD,we can give Softwares with other CD.


[Publicity]:I was surfin ubuntuforums.org,came across thread that stated Ubuntu is broadband OS,as there is no developer software included,ubuntu is not for developers.so that means it is newbie friendly,internet cafe type,any other user with dial-up connection user,offline user can't benefit from ubuntu.Is that true?If its not why newbies are not optin for ubuntu.I can't think from offline users(Non-internet)point of view but We must think on where we are lack?
Also publicity/advocacy of ubuntu from such forums requires some education about what ubuntu can do/can't do for them.

[Kubuntu]:-We must agree,Kubuntu is nothin but KDE in ubuntu,there is no room for developers at ubuntu.No developer IDE's,softwares included in both flavours.We can focus kubuntu for Intermediate/Advanced users like Programmers,graphic designers,web developers and distribute software accordingly.
You can take Knoppix as example includes more number of software than our ubuntu.We can learn many things from our other debain distros.


I need your opinions as views discussed will not be considered by ubuntu developers,even then come on discuss.

Hope my suggestions,problems apeal to the community.

[KingBahamut]

I want to share my ideas on ubuntu.I wanted to share it on wiki but some of the issues need immediate attention like installer,LiveCD etc.I hope you look on to these issues,and can tell me how you can handle them.I dont know what my email can do in such big community,hope my issues will not be ignored.Anyway thanks for reading them.

[ Difficulty of installation ]:- It is initially a high barrier to adoption of ubuntu for any newbie.Installation Process is confusing,time consuming for most of newbies.
<Suggestion>We can prefer fast n easy Graphical installer like Mepis Distro[mepis.org]

[ Live CD ]:-Compared to other distros like Knoppix,Mepis,Mandriva Ubuntu's Live CD is much slow at detecting hardware,network,disks etc.Boot time is also more than Knoppix,Mepis.
<Suggestion>Instead of distributing Live CD+Install CD,We can make Installable Live CD like Mepis.We can add another CD for HowTOs,Missing packages from Programming & developement related softwares.

[ Softwares ]: Softwares that comes up with ubuntu is limited,so in order to add more requires internet conection or Debian based CD's.Instead wasting space in Live CD,we can give Softwares with other CD.


[Publicity]:I was surfin ubuntuforums.org,came across thread that stated Ubuntu is broadband OS,as there is no developer software included,ubuntu is not for developers.so that means it is newbie friendly,internet cafe type,any other user with dial-up connection user,offline user can't benefit from ubuntu.Is that true?If its not why newbies are not optin for ubuntu.I can't think from offline users(Non-internet)point of view but We must think on where we are lack?
Also publicity/advocacy of ubuntu from such forums requires some education about what ubuntu can do/can't do for them.

[Kubuntu]:-We must agree,Kubuntu is nothin but KDE in ubuntu,there is no room for developers at ubuntu.No developer IDE's,softwares included in both flavours.We can focus kubuntu for Intermediate/Advanced users like Programmers,graphic designers,web developers and distribute software accordingly.
You can take Knoppix as example includes more number of software than our ubuntu.We can learn many things from our other debain distros.


I need your opinions as views discussed will not be considered by ubuntu developers,even then come on discuss.

Hope my suggestions,problems apeal to the community.


Installer - Honestly, I dont see how the installer is that counter intuitive. Graphical or not. Its probably the easiest installer (with the acception of the crappy Linspire 4 click installer, or the Ark Linux installer that gives you a tetris game to play while its doing its job) ive seen or used. I think this point doesnt relavate the idea of ease and more the idea of attractiveness....ergo, moot point.

Live CD - The live CD in my opinion should be about giving the user an adequate experience into the use of the OS, not nessecarily a way to install it. Most users that touch a Live CD are interested in one of a few things. 1. Use for purpose other than installation or 2. Use of experience to a new user. This to me does not facilitate the need to make the Live CD and installer as well. All though I believe that the DVD Live CD is and does have an installer on it.

Software - Licensing , Mon ami, its all about liscensing. Certain packages can exist in one place , and others cannot. While there is, or there was at least, an Extras CD floating around, I feel that the base install provides all the nessecaries for any normal or standard user.

Publicity - two words. Mark Shuttleworth. two more words Canonical Ltd. some more words

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu
When your done with those

http://www.google.com/search?hs=3Ic&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22ubuntu+linux%22&btnG=Search
note the 2.5 million results. Im sure there is some amount of publicity in there.

Kubuntu - We dont have to aggree on anything.

[earobinson]

Installer - Honestly, I dont see how the installer is that counter intuitive. Graphical or not. Its probably the easiest installer (with the acception of the crappy Linspire 4 click installer, or the Ark Linux installer that gives you a tetris game to play while its doing its job) ive seen or used. I think this point doesnt relavate the idea of ease and more the idea of attractiveness....ergo, moot point.

Live CD - The live CD in my opinion should be about giving the user an adequate experience into the use of the OS, not nessecarily a way to install it. Most users that touch a Live CD are interested in one of a few things. 1. Use for purpose other than installation or 2. Use of experience to a new user. This to me does not facilitate the need to make the Live CD and installer as well. All though I believe that the DVD Live CD is and does have an installer on it.

Software - Licensing , Mon ami, its all about liscensing. Certain packages can exist in one place , and others cannot. While there is, or there was at least, an Extras CD floating around, I feel that the base install provides all the nessecaries for any normal or standard user.

Publicity - two words. Mark Shuttleworth. two more words Canonical Ltd. some more words

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu
When your done with those

http://www.google.com/search?hs=3Ic&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22ubuntu+linux%22&btnG=Search
note the 2.5 million results. Im sure there is some amount of publicity in there.

Kubuntu - We dont have to aggree on anything.
agreed

[GeneralZod]

I'm forced to disagree on two points. Firstly, a LiveCD based graphical installer is superior to the current "text-based installer" and "LiveCD with separate install CD" in almost every way. Your comment that a text-based installer is no less intuitive that a graphical one is simply not true for a certain segment of users - my mother, for instance, is actually terrified - no exaggeration! - of the text-mode boot sequence. I think a lot of people are so used to seeing GUIs on computers that suddenly being plunged into an all-text environment really disconcerts them - almost as if you've owned a nice Ferrari for a while and suddenly all the bodywork pops off to reveal all the moving gears and fan-belts under the hood! Movies like "Wargames" et al have also instilled the feeling that text mode is only used by the elite.

LiveCDs are already very popular and novel to a lot of people, and being able to install the OS in your native screen resolution while you surf the web in Firefox and listen to music would probably knock the socks off a lot of people - I personally think it is a truly great concept, and imagine that many of my Windows friends would have to pick their jaws up off the floor if they saw it in action.

I also dispute your proposed uses of a LiveCD - advocates will give them out for people to take home and try out risk-free (to see if it handles their hardware and whether they like the look of a Linux environment, for example), and if this is so, which would be best - clicking a button with "Install!" written on it, or having them figure out that they now need to go and find, download, and burn a 650MB file?

You can easily argue that things are "good enough" right now with respect to these points, but that is setting our sights much too low and smacks of a certain other company that has thrived on just providing "good enough" software and not striving for excellence in all things.

My opinion is that Ubuntu, which is already a top-notch distro, should adopt the policy of "If we can do something better, and it costs us nothing but time [e.g. doesn't decrease speed, stability etc], then we should do it".

[jimcooncat]

I'm not sure I get the original poster's points. There are distros with some of these items in place, mostly non-free in some form. The individual items are being addressed by the devs as far as I can tell. I guess he just wants everything NOW. Me too, but I know I'll have to wait.

[Wolki]

I want to share my ideas on ubuntu.I wanted to share it on wiki but some of the issues need immediate attention like installer,LiveCD etc.I hope you look on to these issues,and can tell me how you can handle them.I dont know what my email can do in such big community,hope my issues will not be ignored.Anyway thanks for reading them.

If you want immediate attention, go to bugzilla/malone/developer mailing lists. There are hardly any Ubuntu decision-makers actively reading the forums.



[ Difficulty of installation ]:- It is initially a high barrier to adoption of ubuntu for any newbie.Installation Process is confusing,time consuming for most of newbies.
<Suggestion>We can prefer fast n easy Graphical installer like Mepis Distro[mepis.org]

OK, what exactly would a graphical installer make easier? I have never used MEPIS. If you use the defaults, the install is fast and easy even for novice users. And the complicated things (partitioning, mostly) don't become easier just by having it graphical. Or do they? Please supply reasons.


[ Live CD ]:-Compared to other distros like Knoppix,Mepis,Mandriva Ubuntu's Live CD is much slow at detecting hardware,network,disks etc.Boot time is also more than Knoppix,Mepis.
<Suggestion>Instead of distributing Live CD+Install CD,We can make Installable Live CD like Mepis.We can add another CD for HowTOs,Missing packages from Programming & developement related softwares.

Having the Live CD work as the installer is a goal for one of the next releases, pobably Dapper or Dapper+1.

Yes, the Live CD can be quite slow in starting. I found it to work really well though, while I have serious problems with most Knoppix based live cds. Having default Ubuntu as a live cd is nice, too. I also don't see why combining it with the installer would make it faster. :)


[ Softwares ]: Softwares that comes up with ubuntu is limited,so in order to add more requires internet conection or Debian based CD's.Instead wasting space in Live CD,we can give Softwares with other CD.

Possibly. The question is, which software to choose? The repos are large, and people like different software. Also, Canonical does not give support for things not in main, so maybe they don't want to ship universe packages.

I agree that better software availability for people not having their ubuntu machine connected to the net would be nice, but i think that should be done as community projects.


[Kubuntu]:-We must agree,Kubuntu is nothin but KDE in ubuntu,there is no room for developers at ubuntu.No developer IDE's,softwares included in both flavours.We can focus kubuntu for Intermediate/Advanced users like Programmers,graphic designers,web developers and distribute software accordingly.
You can take Knoppix as example includes more number of software than our ubuntu.We can learn many things from our other debain distros.


Why? Can't our friends who like KDE have a nice-and-easy distro too? And providing a polished KDE in Ubuntu is exactly what Kubuntu is supposed to do. It's not like advanced programs are hard to install either . And not having every software under the sun included by default is Ubuntu's point; There are other distros for that, and everyone is free to use them.

[UbuWu]

And the complicated things (partitioning, mostly) don't become easier just by having it graphical. Or do they? Please supply reasons.


Yes they do. Having a graphical representation of your partitions makes it much more understandable for not-so-experienced users and easier to spot mistakes.

[GeneralZod]

Yes they do. Having a graphical representation of your partitions makes it much more understandable for not-so-experienced users and easier to spot mistakes.

Indeed. See Mandrake's superb graphical partitioner for a good example of this. There may be even better ones available. It shows exactly what partitons are taking up the most space on which drive etc in a very intuitive way, and to edit a partition, you simply click on it.

[welsh_spud]

A small game like Tetris or Pacman would be great during the installation! I think I remember hearing Xandros 1 had a game like that during the install.

[aysiu]

My opinion is that Ubuntu, which is already a top-notch distro, should adopt the policy of "If we can do something better, and it costs us nothing but time [e.g. doesn't decrease speed, stability etc], then we should do it". Are you implying that the Ubuntu devs just sit around all day thinking they don't need to improve the OS? I was under the impression they were already working quite hard to make every new release (every six months) much better than the last one.

[poofyhairguy]

[ Difficulty of installation ]:- It is initially a high barrier to adoption of ubuntu for any newbie.Installation Process is confusing,time consuming for most of newbies.
<Suggestion>We can prefer fast n easy Graphical installer like Mepis Distro[mepis.org]

I agree. I think this is in the works, because it will be cheaper to ship one CD than two.



[ Live CD ]:-Compared to other distros like Knoppix,Mepis,Mandriva Ubuntu's Live CD is much slow at detecting hardware,network,disks etc.Boot time is also more than Knoppix,Mepis.

Thats because it mirrors the Ubuntu install process. The Live CD may take longer than others, but it WILL tell you if your computer is Ubuntu compatible.



[ Softwares ]: Softwares that comes up with ubuntu is limited,so in order to add more requires internet conection or Debian based CD's.Instead wasting space in Live CD,we can give Softwares with other CD.

Well....there is the DVD. It has everything in the main. It can be bought cheaply on the internet. As far as I know, there are no plans for a second CD.



[Publicity]:I was surfin ubuntuforums.org,came across thread that stated Ubuntu is broadband OS,as there is no developer software included,ubuntu is not for developers.so that means it is newbie friendly,internet cafe type,any other user with dial-up connection user,offline user can't benefit from ubuntu.Is that true?If its not why newbies are not optin for ubuntu.I can't think from offline users(Non-internet)point of view but We must think on where we are lack?
Also publicity/advocacy of ubuntu from such forums requires some education about what ubuntu can do/can't do for them.

That was probably my comment. I personally believe Ubuntu is a broadband OS and is a poor choice if you are on dial up or have no access. Why? A few reasons:

1. The security updates are big. When I reinstalled Hoary, it wanted like 100+mb of security updates. Would make a dial up person cry.

2. Since Java, Media codecs, and Flash can not be legally distributed with Ubuntu, these things must be downloaded seperately. They are not huge packages, but they add up quickely.

3. If you get an Ubuntu CD (or even a DVD) shipped to you, it only includes the main. Much of the free software people want to install is in the Universe repository. So to add many popular programs, you have to download things. This is why when I talk with people on dial-up in the forum, I often suggest Debian Sarge. If you get Sarge shipped to you, on the CDs it includes all the packages- what in Ubuntu would be the Main and the Universe. I have asked why Ubuntu does not put out cds of the Universe and its because honestly the developers like to be tied to the Universe as little as possible. They don't want to be associated with it for the most part, and they don't want to support CDs with those packages on it.

Someone with some time, and a need for money, could make a killing putting the Ubuntu Universe on CDs and offer to ship them to people for a fee. Then I would recommend Ubuntu again to dial up users.

4. From just a "Windows switcher" perspective, the worst Windows problesm all happen when you have broadband. Windows was made with dial up in mind- it gets eaten alive on a fat pipe. Ubuntu does not, so it is the perfect OS for those with good internet.



[Kubuntu]:-We must agree,Kubuntu is nothin but KDE in ubuntu,there is no room for developers at ubuntu.

Actually, the Kubuntu guy is seperate from the rest.

[GeneralZod]

Are you implying that the Ubuntu devs just sit around all day thinking they don't need to improve the OS? I was under the impression they were already working quite hard to make every new release (every six months) much better than the last one.

No; this was made as a response to King Bahamut who (I think) was saying we should leave the installer/ LiveCD as they are. "Should adopt" was a very stupid choice of words and I've no idea why I picked them :)

[aysiu]

No; this was made as a response to King Bahamut who (I think) was saying we should leave the installer/ LiveCD as they are. "Should adopt" was a very stupid choice of words and I've no idea why I picked them :) Cool.

[KingBahamut]

No; this was made as a response to King Bahamut who (I think) was saying we should leave the installer/ LiveCD as they are. "Should adopt" was a very stupid choice of words and I've no idea why I picked them :)

Actually Zod What I was saying was less time worrying about the boot up phase of the LiveCD and more time enriching the experience for the user. I think the original complaint was that the live CD doesnt boot up like say , Knoppix does, I see this point as irrelevant, and if that means more meaningful stuff can be put into the LiveCD to enrich the new user experience, then good, thats only a plus for the community.

Clearly the LiveCD aspect can improve, I just dont see a need in conforming to something like Knoppix in the boot up aspect, just to please some users , where other aspects of it can be improved and please many more users.

[GeneralZod]

Actually Zod What I was saying was less time worrying about the boot up phase of the LiveCD and more time enriching the experience for the user. .

Ah, fair enough - if the improvements would divert focus from other, more important areas, then it's best to place them on the backburner.

[Wolki]

Yes they do. Having a graphical representation of your partitions makes it much more understandable for not-so-experienced users and easier to spot mistakes.

And why is this not possible in text mode? It looks a little nicer in a full graphic environment, but should be possible with a nCurses interface. I'm not against graphical installation, but i think it'll come when the live and install CDs are combined.

It also won't remove the general problems with partitions - what it is, how to partition and how to not lose data.

And yes, the Mandriva partitioner is great.

[KingBahamut]

And yes, the Mandriva partitioner is great.


Because we are in community I can get away with this.

The above comment is entirely a matter of opinion......not that I share it.=)

[aysiu]

Ah, fair enough - if the improvements would divert focus from other, more important areas, then it's best to place them on the backburner. Think about it, too--if someone is so intimidated by a text-only installer, will that person be likely to be successful in installing an OS (with all the potential problems that come with that course of action--Windows or Linux)? My guess is that most people who say "Oh, my God. A text-based graphical installer. I can't use this" will also get frustrated and give up quite easily once they see that they have to install codecs to play proprietary formats and install all sorts of plugins to get Firefox working the way they want it to and manually edit the fstab file to get partitions to automount.

I have to say Mepis has one of the easiest installs, but once I started using it, I realized I don't use OSes for their installation--I use them for everyday tasks. One of my everyday tasks is booting up the computer, and it takes twice as long to do that in Mepis than in Ubuntu. They also have that ugly pyramid splash screen during bootup that isn't easy to get rid of.

[bob_c_b]

I'm forced to disagree on two points. Firstly, a LiveCD based graphical installer is superior to the current "text-based installer" and "LiveCD with separate install CD" in almost every way. Your comment that a text-based installer is no less intuitive that a graphical one is simply not true for a certain segment of users - my mother, for instance, is actually terrified - no exaggeration! - of the text-mode boot sequence. I think a lot of people are so used to seeing GUIs on computers that suddenly being plunged into an all-text environment really disconcerts them - almost as if you've owned a nice Ferrari for a while and suddenly all the bodywork pops off to reveal all the moving gears and fan-belts under the hood! Movies like "Wargames" et al have also instilled the feeling that text mode is only used by the elite.

No offense to your mom (as mine is the same way) but I doubt either of our mothers will be installing Linux or Windows any time soon and I don't see changing the installer to compensate for this kind of user to be any bit useful. Coming from my last 2 major Linux distros (Red Hat and Mandarke) I can safely say that while not as eye-pleasing, the Ubuntu installer was probably the most straight forward and simple to use of all the distros I have tried. We shouldn't kid a user into believing they will never need/use the command line if they choose to work with Linux. If a little reading and a little extra work at understanding your computer puts you off during the install I really don't know how much of Linux you could enjoy.

EDIT: we must have hit submit within seconds of each other ay :grin:

[aysiu]

We shouldn't kid a user into believing they will never need/use the command line if they choose to work with Linux. If a little reading and a little extra work at understanding your computer puts you off during the install I really don't know how much of Linux you could enjoy. While I agree with this sentiment in general, I do believe that you can use Linux without the command line as long as someone installs and configures Linux for you. Once Linux is installed and configured, it's all point-and-click (or can be). Regular users (for the most part) just check email, surf the internet, word process, and play the occasional game. None of that requires the command line.

[bob_c_b]

While I agree with this sentiment in general, I do believe that you can use Linux without the command line as long as someone installs and configures Linux for you. Once Linux is installed and configured, it's all point-and-click (or can be). Regular users (for the most part) just check email, surf the internet, word process, and play the occasional game. None of that requires the command line.

For the most part, I agree with that as well.

[xequence]

I want to share my ideas on ubuntu.I wanted to share it on wiki but some of the issues need immediate attention like installer,LiveCD etc.I hope you look on to these issues,and can tell me how you can handle them.I dont know what my email can do in such big community,hope my issues will not be ignored.Anyway thanks for reading them.

[ Difficulty of installation ]:- It is initially a high barrier to adoption of ubuntu for any newbie.Installation Process is confusing,time consuming for most of newbies.
<Suggestion>We can prefer fast n easy Graphical installer like Mepis Distro[mepis.org]

[ Live CD ]:-Compared to other distros like Knoppix,Mepis,Mandriva Ubuntu's Live CD is much slow at detecting hardware,network,disks etc.Boot time is also more than Knoppix,Mepis.
<Suggestion>Instead of distributing Live CD+Install CD,We can make Installable Live CD like Mepis.We can add another CD for HowTOs,Missing packages from Programming & developement related softwares.

[ Softwares ]: Softwares that comes up with ubuntu is limited,so in order to add more requires internet conection or Debian based CD's.Instead wasting space in Live CD,we can give Softwares with other CD.


[Publicity]:I was surfin ubuntuforums.org,came across thread that stated Ubuntu is broadband OS,as there is no developer software included,ubuntu is not for developers.so that means it is newbie friendly,internet cafe type,any other user with dial-up connection user,offline user can't benefit from ubuntu.Is that true?If its not why newbies are not optin for ubuntu.I can't think from offline users(Non-internet)point of view but We must think on where we are lack?
Also publicity/advocacy of ubuntu from such forums requires some education about what ubuntu can do/can't do for them.

[Kubuntu]:-We must agree,Kubuntu is nothin but KDE in ubuntu,there is no room for developers at ubuntu.No developer IDE's,softwares included in both flavours.We can focus kubuntu for Intermediate/Advanced users like Programmers,graphic designers,web developers and distribute software accordingly.
You can take Knoppix as example includes more number of software than our ubuntu.We can learn many things from our other debain distros.


I need your opinions as views discussed will not be considered by ubuntu developers,even then come on discuss.

Hope my suggestions,problems apeal to the community.



The installation is very easy. Just because it doesent have 50 MB of pictures, its easy to install. It basically just a click enter until you get to the end kind of thing. The hardest part is partitioning, and there is a good guide to that on a website somewhere, or you can just delete it all and install it on the whole hard drive.

About software, it has a good balance. It is not debian, with 14 CDs, (Crazy stuff debian is.). Whatever more software tyou need, you can install it from apt-get.

[overcast]

Well no one is getting the point,i think including dial up users, there are lot of peoples using computers without internet.Why anybody think about these users?
It is hard to get softwares for linux.o i think Kubuntu must be aimed for such users,to give more softwares.

[aysiu]

Well no one is getting the point,i think including dial up users, there are lot of peoples using computers without internet.Why anybody think about these users?
It is hard to get softwares for linux.o i think Kubuntu must be aimed for such users,to give more softwares. Talk to the developers. No one in this forum has any say over the directions Ubuntu or Kubuntu takes--a point that was already made earlier in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=354533&postcount=6).