Using 'wine' illegal in USA?

[bonzodog]

Ok, so I was looking at the latest versions of wine, and did some queries on the SafeDisc protection mechanism which some of my games use.
I have discovered that a 'patch' has been put into the main wine code to circumvent SafeDisc, and they have hacked ntoskrnl.exe to make it work.
This patch is included in all current versions of wine. Here's the crunch: - Technically, it appears that the wine team have 'circumvented copy protection', thus they have broken the DMCA under US law.

Am I right in thinking that this makes wine illegal to use in the US, and that they may have left themselves wide open to a libel suit?

btw, this patch currently only works on safedisc version 1, not on v 2.0. They are 'working on it' however.

[LaRoza]

I don't know the answer (and really don't care), but I doubt the legal use of the software will harm users.

[Mazza558]

Wine was already very rough around the edges on the legal side. MS probably have every right to close it down due to infringements, but interestingly, there's been no action taken against it.

[argie]

No offence, but what an idiot law! It's almost as bad as that crap about prohibiting people from tying female alligators with an umbrella to a fire hydrant on a Sunday. Now I know how those laws happen. No one notices when they're made.

[zach12]

I don't care

[buzzmandt]

technically it is infrigment, however, if that was pushed it would be a black eye against microsoft being a monopoly, so they don't press it.

frankly i agree with most answers:
I don't care

[Dimitriid]

Wine was already very rough around the edges on the legal side. MS probably have every right to close it down due to infringements, but interestingly, there's been no action taken against it.

No, at most some developers and mirror on the US might have to be reconsidered. Key word here being the US, there are plenty of other places where development would be perfectly legal and that, like fighting p2p networks, would make the RIAA/Microsoft/whoever efforts pointless and useless.

Given the amount of people that are actually using wine ( which is a percentage of the less than what, 1-2% of all computer users that do run Linux ? ) I think it would be pointless to drag on a legal battle like that.

[kebes]

Technically, it appears that the wine team have 'circumvented copy protection', thus they have broken the DMCA under US law.

It's a legal grey area.

Yes, that SafeDisc code probably does technically violate the U.S. DMCA anti-circumvention laws (and the Wine project could be accused of "trafficking in anti-circumvention technology" by a U.S. court). This is no different than most DVD-players in Linux: they have to circumvent DVD copy protection and hence violate the DMCA. To date, I don't think anyone has tried suing on this basis, and even though the DMCA strictly makes it illegal, it's quite possible a judge would rule that playing legally-purchased DVDs (or playing video games through Wine) was a legitimate use and throw out the case.


Wine was already very rough around the edges on the legal side. MS probably have every right to close it down due to infringements, but interestingly, there's been no action taken against it.

Wine was written from scratch, so it doesn't violate copyright law (which doesn't prevent re-implementing an idea in a new form). It's quite possible that Microsoft has patents that Wine infringes, but then again Microsoft's software undoubtedly violates hundreds of patents too (owned by IBM, HP, Red Hat, etc.).

In reality, just about every non-trivial piece of software nowadays is "infringing" in some way. Wine is no worse than any other one.


No offence, but what an idiot law!
The DMCA and software patents are both terrible ideas that, in my opinion, stifle software innovation. If you live in the U.S. you should encourage local politicians to repeal those laws.

[ARhere]

Bah!

Keep this crap in /. (http://slashdot.org) forums.

Last thing I want Linux beginners is to worry about the trolls under the Ubuntu bridge.

-AR

[Linuxratty]

Yeah,its as stupid as the law here in NC that prohibits the buying of wine or beer on Sunday mornings before 12 noon...
:mad::evil::razz::roll:

[nike_alphacoy]

hi! i'm a new ubuntu user and i havent maximized my wine yet, though i have already run warcraft on it.. i have posted some screen shots on my blogsite:

http://laytech.blogspot.com

i'll post more in the following days...

[Kingsley]

Yeah,its as stupid as the law here in NC that prohibits the buying of wine or beer on Sunday mornings before 12 noon...
:mad::evil::razz::roll:
Georgia is worse. No alcohol can be bought at any time of the day on Sunday.

[kripkenstein]

This is about as gray an area as it can get.

Personally I doubt it is illegal, at least as far as I understand things. The DMCA says you can't circumvent encryptions/locks etc. However, technically the 'lock' in this case is SafeDisc, which runs on Windows. Hacking SafeDisc or Windows to bypass the protection is illegal. However, Wine is 'hacking itself', you might say - not Windows nor SafeDisc is touched.

The tricky issue is that SafeDisc is being used in a non-intended setting: Wine and not Windows. This, however, cannot be illegal as it falls under the various interoperability-allowing clauses in the DMCA and other legislation. Perhaps the SafeDisc EULA says you can only run it on Windows - but that might not be legally enforceable, for the reasons I just stated.

Anyhow, as others correctly said, nobody will test this in court. It isn't worth the money, nor the risk of losing. Game on :)

[bash]

This is only a problem if Wine is based in the US. If not who cares? US law is not the law of the world nor appliable to just everyone in the world. Just because some US companies and authorities try to make you belive that, it still doesn't just make it true.

[Ocxic]

the patch was put in place to allow gamers to use there copy protected games in wine. the wine team has done nothing wrong. it's the end user who uses wine to play games that they do not own are the ones doing something wrong. and like bash said U.S. law is not world law, even tho they think it is.

but hey, now the RIAA is saying that copying your OWN music CD to your computer is copyright infringement, guess we better get rid of all those mp3 players and ipod's eh.

[banjobacon]

Am I right in thinking that this makes wine illegal to use in the US, and that they may have left themselves wide open to a libel suit?

Libel has nothing to do with intellectual property law.

[Monster_user]

Okay, so like everything else in Linux, getting any kind of decent functionality out of it, is Illegal in the U.S. I'm getting used to the idea.


Georgia is worse. No alcohol can be bought at any time of the day on Sunday.
Worse??? That is why I live in Georgia, and not North Carolina.

Its all about respect, these people need to learn to respect the drink, and not abuse it.

[asimon]

Last thing I want Linux beginners is to worry about the trolls under the Ubuntu bridge.

Oh yes, "ignore the law and it may ignore you too" is always a strategy. ;-)

[banjobacon]

In these threads, people always act as if copyright and IP laws only exist in the US. Obviously laws are different from country to country, but claiming this issue applies only to the US seems unlikely.

Yes, the DMCA only applies to the US, but Europe has the EU Copyright Directive. Does anyone know how that comes into play regarding this issue?

[Cavalryman]

...U.S. law is not world law, even tho they think it is...

I'm not sure who you think "they" are. I don't personally know anyone who thinks U.S. law is world law. Just because it's law here doesn't mean it's a "good" law. Conversely, I can think of any number of Canadian and European laws that I certainly don't want to see enacted in my country. The original question regarded the legality of Wine in the USA and -- like a lot of legal questions (at least in the USA) -- that's not at all clear. I wouldn't have any concerns about using Wine to run a program that I had legally purchased, but others may feel differently. I suppose each user will have to find his/her own comfort level.

[LaRoza]

Perhaps the reason why MS doesn't pursue Wine is because they'd be hurting themselves.

Linux users would use Linux without Wine, and the only way many Linux users Windows programs is through Wine, why would MS cut off the only method of using their software in Linux?

[asimon]

Yes, the DMCA only applies to the US, but Europe has the EU Copyright Directive. Does anyone know how that comes into play regarding this issue?
In Germany we also have a law which forbids to circumvent a functioning (the law doesn't define 'functioning', so that has to be decided before court in case) copy-protection.

Anyway, some facts:

1. WINE only support SafeDisc Version 1, not Version 2 or above.

2. Quote from Wine developer mailing list:
Finally we've got safedisc1 running on linux. Thanks go to *Laurent* Pinchart, Vitaliy Margolen, *Brad DeMorrow, Marcus Meissner, and Alexandre for contributing time/code/ideas. The code is 100% DMCA compliant and hopefully can be cleaned up to be good enough for cvs over the coming days and weeks.
Two games have been tested, they both use the same version of safedisc.

Source: linux-gamers.net (http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=954)

[Cavalryman]

...the law doesn't define 'functioning', so that has to be decided before court in case...[/I]
Source: linux-gamers.net (http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=954)

I'm glad we're not the only ones with unclear laws! :)

[forrestcupp]

To all the people who say "I don't care"

It's not only about whether you are breaking the rules by using Wine. It's also about whether or not Wine would be shut down for circumventing copy protection schemes.

If wine were shut down, would you care?

[Lostincyberspace]

It really is a pain.

[gn2]

Georgia is worse. No alcohol can be bought at any time of the day on Sunday.

Can you buy firearms on a Sunday?

[irv]

I tried wine, but un-installed it! I found a better way. I just use “Vistualbox” and loaded a legal copy of XP and it work great. (but I only use one program that I can't get in Linux). So if wine gets shutdown we Linux users have other avenues to take.

[shad0w_walker]

forrestcupp: As has been said time and time again here. It would only shut down wine in the USA. It won't affect the rest of the world so this notion wine will disappear slots into the view that US law is world law. AKA wrong. Sorry to say it but it's not world law.

irv: There are a few quite big draw backs with a virtual machine.

1. There is a very large performance hit when using a virtual machine and that will cripple all but relatively simple applications, anything that needs to work quickly is screwed.

2. This is the BIG one. There is NO 3D support in virtual machines (Except insanely simple, experimental code) which means even if you could get the performance issue out of the way there is no chance of gaming in a virtual machine or doing anything that requires any form of 3D acceleration.

[irv]

irv: There are a few quite big draw backs with a virtual machine.

1. There is a very large performance hit when using a virtual machine and that will cripple all but relatively simple applications, anything that needs to work quickly is screwed.

2. This is the BIG one. There is NO 3D support in virtual machines (Except insanely simple, experimental code) which means even if you could get the performance issue out of the way there is no chance of gaming in a virtual machine or doing anything that requires any form of 3D acceleration.

You are 100% right on both counts. Like I said I only need it for one app. and I only run it once in a blue moon. I am not a gamer. Thanks for the comments.
Irv

[shad0w_walker]

That's fair enough then, just thought I would point it out. See so many people on the forums that assume a virtual machine means they can rush out and play crysis on it with out a thought. Good to see there are still people around that know the limits of what they are using.

[popch]

There is a very large performance hit when using a virtual machine and that will cripple all but relatively simple applications, anything that needs to work quickly is screwed..

For that reason, we use virtual machines only for utterly simple and small applications such as project management or photoshop work. We cheat a bit because we buy an extra 2Gigs of RAM for the machines on which we do that.

[LaRoza]

To all the people who say "I don't care"

It's not only about whether you are breaking the rules by using Wine. It's also about whether or not Wine would be shut down for circumventing copy protection schemes.

If wine were shut down, would you care?

No. Using Windows software is minor in my book, and finding ways to run Linux software (or ports to Windows) on Windows is more important to me.

Wine is a nice little thing to have around, but it is hardly something that would be missed.

[popch]

Wine is a nice little thing to have around, but it is hardly something that would be missed.

I definitely would miss it. I have yet to find a replacement for Access, and running Access in its own virtual Box is just too cumbersome.

[LaRoza]

I definitely would miss it. I have yet to find a replacement for Access, and running Access in its own virtual Box is just too cumbersome.

I have yet to find a reason for Access.

If it works in Wine now, then the shutdown of the project (if it happened) wouldn't matter.

[shad0w_walker]

I've yet to find a reason to run Linux programs on Windows. Just because YOU don't happen to have a reason to want something doesn't mean its worthless. Access seems to be a fairly decent one to want considering the number of businesses that work around Microsoft technologies and that running in Wine would give you the ability to ditch the rest of Windows on your home computer.

[popch]

I have yet to find a reason for Access.

If it works in Wine now, then the shutdown of the project (if it happened) wouldn't matter.

Yes, different people have different needs.

I am frightfully glad they did not shut down the Wine project before now, because the last two or three updates improved the usability of Access something wonderful.

[LaRoza]

I've yet to find a reason to run Linux programs on Windows. Just because YOU don't happen to have a reason to want something doesn't mean its worthless. Access seems to be a fairly decent one to want considering the number of businesses that work around Microsoft technologies and that running in Wine would give you the ability to ditch the rest of Windows on your home computer.
Yes, I know. I was responding to this:



To all the people who say "I don't care"

It's not only about whether you are breaking the rules by using Wine. It's also about whether or not Wine would be shut down for circumventing copy protection schemes.

If wine were shut down, would you care?

I answered it.

We all have different specs, but I was asked, because I said I didn't care about the DMCA, if I would care if it were shut down, and I said I didn't.

[shad0w_walker]

Ok, I apparently managed to take a bit of wrong look at that post. I read it and interpreted it as a you don't have a reason to use access there for you don't care if others can't. My bad, see it properly now that you point out that other post again.

[LaRoza]

Ok, I apparently managed to take a bit of wrong look at that post. I read it and interpreted it as a you don't have a reason to use access there for you don't care if others can't. My bad, see it properly now that you point out that other post again.

No, I have no real use for Wine, but I do know that others use it a lot and would miss it.

It is a very good project, but I don't think there will be a legal issue over it unless it starts encouraging illegal activity.

[Vaelrith]

Only if your under 21....... :|

What isn't illegal in the US, what are they going to do about it?

[LaRoza]

What isn't illegal in the US, what are they going to do about it?

There was a thought it was in violation of the DMCA (see OP), and probably nothing.

[Salpiche]

If it is illegal in the USA, it would be the most stupid law ever to be enforce (if it was ever to be) think about it, the ones making most of the money are the MS software developers and distributors, and I do not think that they are going to complaint if Wine is doing something that Will increase their profits. I know I would not if I was one of them.

My $.02

BTW:

No offence, but what an idiot law! It's almost as bad as that crap about prohibiting people from tying female alligators with an umbrella to a fire hydrant on a Sunday. Now I know how those laws happen. No one notices when they're made.

I agree, yet that law is only good on every third Sunday, I know I just got a citation a few weeks ago for tying Rosita to a fire hydrant while holding my umbrella, because I wanted to eat ice cream and she could not go in with me. Winter Park, City Fl is a pain.


Sorry I could not resist!!! :lolflag:

[Vaelrith]

and probably nothing.

exactly

[arashiko28]

Who cares if it finds a way to allow you to play? Do you really think that the game vendors companies care? They only care for selling their product, so as long as this doesn't affect their sales, they won't take hands into the matter. Just like happened with music and movies. At first no one cared, until that you could download a full cd previous to its sale on market, watch a movie from a screener or a premier and that knocked down the sales, then they cared.

As far as they care, most of Linux users are also PC gamers, so they might be comfortable with the idea of us finding a way to still play and buy them their merchandise. Don't worry after all, at least I, won't go back to windows just for games. I'll keep using XP until gets really crappy (like 95 or something like that) and by then, the best games will be for Linux too...:lolflag:

[Mad_Dawg]

Whether or not it is legal here, or anywhere else, may be a legal gray area. However, IMO if you are not using WINE to actually COPY the disk to give to someone else, then I can't imagine the software companies or the authoriteis caring in the least about it. After all, the point is to prevent illegal copies.

[samwyse]

I don't think it circumvents anything. It works the same way as it does in Windows.

[forrestcupp]

forrestcupp: As has been said time and time again here. It would only shut down wine in the USA. It won't affect the rest of the world so this notion wine will disappear slots into the view that US law is world law. AKA wrong. Sorry to say it but it's not world law.

No, but it would affect all of the Wine users in the USA. I'm sure we would all care about it.



If it works in Wine now, then the shutdown of the project (if it happened) wouldn't matter.
That is a true statement. They can't take away what we already have. But forget about any chance of getting any newer games to work in the future.


I don't think it circumvents anything. It works the same way as it does in Windows.
Mostly, but the OP was saying that Wine now circumvents the SafeDisc protection mechanism to get some games to be able to install with Wine.

But I'll just say that I'm not really scared. The OP was totally speculative, and probably nothing will ever happen.

[Johnsie]

The legality of Wine hasn't been tested yet in a court of law.

[Vadi]

I don't care either

[Mad_Dawg]

I am not going to worry about the legality of it until it goes to court. If it ever does. Until then I will use it as I did Napster, until it was declared illegal.

[swoll1980]

technically it is infrigment, however, if that was pushed it would be a black eye against microsoft being a monopoly, so they don't press it.

frankly i agree with most answers:
I don't care

From what I learned about it it was reversed engineerd to run exe but has no actual ms code. I don't think for a second bills worried about taking a black eye
he would sue himself if he was allowed to

[swoll1980]

I am not going to worry about the legality of it until it goes to court. If it ever does. Until then I will use it as I did Napster, until it was declared illegal.

Yeah thats what limewire is for

[forrestcupp]

From what I learned about it it was reversed engineerd to run exe but has no actual ms code. I don't think for a second bills worried about taking a black eye
he would sue himself if he was allowed to

But the OP had nothing to do with Microsoft. The problem is that wine has cracked SafeDisc which is a copy protection scheme developed by Macrovision Corporation.

People don't need to get all riled up about MS when that's not even what the thread is about.

[swoll1980]

OH I thought he was saying microsofts code was being used. And I know they are not going to let some one get away with that no matter how they would look