Going Vegetarian

[nickburns]

Thinking of going vegetarian in the next month or so.

Any of you vegetarian?

Hints on starting?

Advice?

Thoughts?

[LaRoza]

I am a vegan.

I started in one day, and never even think about dead animals as food.

I would suggest your familiarize yourself with the variety of fruits and vegatables available.

If you plan on eating milk and egg products, I suggest you use organic (preferably raw) milk, and only eggs from chickens (or other fowl) fed natural food.

If you had a messy diet before, you will have possibly 1 - 14 days of discomfort as your body eliminates all the build up of waste in your body.

[nickburns]

So if I eat eggs and cheese am I a hypocrite?

I am alergic to raw milk, so none for me.

[LaRoza]

So if I eat eggs and cheese am I a hypocrite?

I am alergic to raw milk, so none for me.

No, a vegatarian usually eats such things, but I am a vegan.

Don't use milk at all, processed milk is bad for you anyway.

Try to eat as much raw fruit and vegatables as you can, then the impact of other substances will be minimized.

I started with the books of Norman Walker.

Be aware that Norman Walker was a raw foodist and a vegan and lived to be <edit>old</edit> If you don't have plans on living a long healthy life, do not follow his advice. :)

EDIT Wikipedia says 99 1886 — 1985

[Callius]

I've been a vegetarian for about five or six years now.

So far so good. It certainly helped straighten out my diet into something resembling healthy.

Why did you decide to make the switch?

[Kimmik]

I'm vegetarian since I'm nine years old.

Welcome to the club of thinking people!:)

[nickburns]

I am not switching for the animals as much for the health reasons. Basically I am tired of being fat, eating fried meat and need a overhaul on my diet.

[LaRoza]

I am not switching for the animals as much for the health reasons. Basically I am tired of being fat, eating fried meat and need a overhaul on my diet.

Good luck!

I suggest Norman Walker's books (search amazon for a title you like) and Kevin Trudeau's book, "Natural Cures". The first author will give you practicle and useful advice and is a good person to follow, the second is less useful and has some odd statements in it, but it certainly will strengthen your resolve.

Take control of your life and be much happier and fitter.

[ZapalacX]

I'm also a vegan. I started by going vegetarian long ago. Many people think it limits your choices but at the same time it presents all sorts of new and fun things to do with food. Though I am primarily an ethical vegan, there are innumerable health benefits to abstaining from meat and animal products. Just don't be discouraged by the haters! Best of luck to you!

Oh, yes...Indian cuisine has been a great friend of mine since i've been a veggie. It's not for everyone but it's (for me anyway) a delicious and very healthy friend for vegetarians.

[nickburns]

Why is it when you try to improve yourself people fight against you? I have had haters already try to talk me out of my goal. I guess they are mad they are not improving.

[ZapalacX]

Why is it when you try to improve yourself people fight against you? I have had haters already try to talk me out of my goal. I guess they are mad they are not improving.

I think, from my experience that people are generally uncomfortable with that which is different. Race, religion, sexuality, etc. the majority seems to be uncomfortable with change. You might apply the old Windows v. Linux argument there. It's different so it's bad.

[LaRoza]

Why is it when you try to improve yourself people fight against you? I have had haters already try to talk me out of my goal. I guess they are mad they are not improving.

I think they dislike people being different, especially when they have the vague feeling it is better.

I never try to force my views on anyone, and only talk about it when asked or if I need to justify an action that would be rude without reason (refusing an offer of food).

[ZapalacX]

LaRoza brings up good points. :guitar:

[cartisdm]

My girlfriend of over 3 years has been a vegetarian for most of her life. Personally I'm not a fan of vegetables so it's kind of an odd relationship as far as food groups go but it never is a problem. She obviously eats much healthier than I do, and part I do envy. I imagine you'll see a big improvement with your health and/or weight after not too long

[mikeize]

I went vegetarian about 9 years ago, and vegan a year or two later. I'm 28 now. While I'd always considered it, a trip to India really opened my eyes to the fact that vegetarian food can be exciting, varied and delicious. While I was never motivated by health concerns, the change in diet really brought with it an awareness of food and nutrition which I had never bothered with before... ie, I used to eat meals of 7-11 chili-dogs, Mt. Dew and a king-sized Snickers bar, without a second thought. a BK whopper was 'real' food!

My advice to you is to ENJOY the food you eat. Don't get stuck eating crappy 'vegetarian food'. PBJ and french fries, while not only NOT making for a healthy diet, will soon lead to burn-out and 'backsliding' into your old, more variegated and satisfying diet. Look for various "ethnic" recipes and restaraunts for inspiration. Try everything at least once or twice.

Don't worry about whether you're getting all your protein, calcium, etc etc etc. You'll be fine-- your body will alert you to deficiencies by generating cravings for certain foods. Please your tongue first! This will keep you interested and happy, and desiring to seek out new taste experiences.

Cooking for yourself is always best: fresh ingredients are essential to good food. Many of your favorite dishes can be made vegetarian (and otherwise healthier) with simple modifications/substitutions.

And oh yeah, don't forget to exercise. You don't have to kill yourself, but take a long walk everyday, after meals is a good time. Get a bicycle, play basketball. Whatever you do, make it enjoyable. Whether exercising or eating, if you feel like you are punishing or depriving yourself, it won't last. Best of luck, and enjoy yourself.

-mike

[ricardisimo]

veg-aquarian myself, but thinking of dropping the fish for admittedly PC reasons. I do love fresh (not farmed) fish and seafood, but can't wash the guilty taste out of my mouth. I'll need to do some protein research, most likely.

[oldb0y]

I love my meat, and will never give it up:)
How about starting to work out a bit more, if you're so fat?

[Junichiromayo]

I'm vegetarian since 5 years or so. And I've no problem; I base my recipes on macrobiotics and Zen buddhist diet.

[Warpnow]

I'm a vegetarian, but not a very healthy one.

[jken146]

I say give it a try! What have you got to lose?

Personally, I could never give up meat, though. I has some of the loveliest duck yesterday, and there's no vegetable I've tasted that can come close. IMO of course.

[Incense]

Thinking of going vegetarian in the next month or so.

Any of you vegetarian?

Hints on starting?

Advice?

Thoughts?

You're making a great decision, and it will change your life for the better. I went Veg about five years ago for ethical reasons, and have not looked back.

Hints on Starting: don't wait a couple months, don't wait until tomorrow, start today. When you do start though, do not punish yourself for "slipping", do not try to convert all your friends and family (not yet anyway), and (unless you're super hardcore) take baby steps and ease yourself into it. Maybe start by replacing one meal a day with a vegetarian meal.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you succeed.

[SoloSalsa]

My mother has been a pescetarian for, um, I think about three decades. I went pescetarian when I was nine (seven years ago). I went vegetarian four years ago. And six months ago, I started relying less on animals: no plain cheese, yoghurt, milk, or eggs, and shoes from man-made materials. I do eat any grain products with eggs, and most products that contain dairy (such as pizza and quiche), but not milkshakes, cheesecakes, or other things where the main ingredient is dairy.

When I changed my diet, I never felt anything during the transition time. And I felt no better afterward, either. I do not take any protein supplements, either. (I do take a multivitamin just to get vitamin B, because it helps with my chapped lips). It barely took any will power, and there was no struggle. I just do whatever my mind is set on doing, so for me, being a vegetarian is easy!

I've run into those j.arses that rub a burger in my face and remark about 'yummy yummy steak' and such. But none of them are my close friends.

Best of luck to you!

[ticopelp]

Why is it when you try to improve yourself people fight against you? I have had haters already try to talk me out of my goal. I guess they are mad they are not improving.

Maybe because they ran into too many people with attitudes like this:



Welcome to the club of thinking people!:)

:roll:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for vegetarianism, I dabbled in it myself for quite a few years. I have little practical advice about the actual eating habits, as I think they're best covered by nutritional experts; but I will say, in regards to dealing with the attitude... live your life the way you see fit, don't be one of those obnoxious converts, and just dismiss the people who are really aggressive about their meat-eating. It's just their insecurity talking.

[mrgnash]

I've been a vegetarian for... I don't know how many years now, but a long time :lolflag: There's no real trick to it, except that I would recommend getting some good cookbooks and a crockpot -- also, stir-fries are your friend :P

[Dimitriid]

Everybody just makes wrong assumptions, including most vegetarians here assuming theirs is the healthiest lifestyle: It can be if they balance their diet really good, often with artificial aids like supplements helping lots too. People can also have a very healthy and balanced died that includes meat 1 or 2 times per week.

Just as you get your fat people who eat a lot of meat my aunt right now is fairly sick and has a red blood cell count dangerously low along with many allergies that make most treatment plans out of the question, and she is a Vegetarian + Fish but mainly vegetarian.

But her lifestyle and diet, due to work related stress and complications, has been far from perfect. This happens to a lot of vegetarians too, diet problems are not exclusive to meat eaters.

I don't condemn people for what they eat, I just get really annoyed on a regular basis by militant vegans who make a point to say they are healthier and become a real drag requesting special food and special restaurants all the time. Why would you want everybody to go to a vegetarian restaurants that serve no meat when you know you are going to a fairly vegan friendly place like Indian food to being with?

Is both on wrong accounts but given the fact that many vegetarians often come on too strong on their preaching, don't be surprised many people reacts adversely at this point.

[ZapalacX]

strawman...

[kripkenstein]

Been a vegan for 10 years now. I like it, but I realize it isn't for everyone. So, certainly try it out, but keep an open mind. Some people thrive on such a diet, some get bored or feel less energetic (why, I don't know, but they do. Psychological?).

If you make a habit of being a vegan (or, to a lesser degree, a vegetarian), then you do need to be aware of some health issues. Just like carnivores need to know not to eat too much high-cholesterol fatty meat, vegans have concerns of their own. Perhaps the most important is B12 - if you ignore it for a few years then it can sneak up on you in an unpleasant way.

If you're just starting out then you don't need to be too concerned, but if this becomes a lifestyle change then you should do some reading on the topic of vegan nutrition.

Good luck, and remember to eat tasty food whatever choice you make :)

[Mr Fredrick]

Dimitriid sentiments are spot on! If its your health your worried about then read this FIRST:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B12

And don't forget Sodium, getting that down as low as possible would probably do you more good than becoming a vegetarian

[hardyn]

I am not a vegiterian, but do have a few friends that are. im not trying to start anything here and personal beliefs aside... but why throughout this post has eating meat been associated with fried, burgers, and unhealthiness?

again, hormones, steroids and other rhetoric aside; meat offers an incredible energy density, and while meat is very often overeaten as in north america, meat can be a part of any HEALTHY diet. it is anybodies choise to eat meat or not, no attacks there, but those of us that do eat meat and fish are not unhealthy by association.

the poster stated that he was eating fried unhealthy food, a healthy diet can very much include meat, and still be healthy.

[tuebinger]

I was a vegetarian for ten years. You can live without meat, sure -- but you can also be healthy and fit without being a vegetarian. I find some of the advice here a little disturbing. Of course you should be concerned about how much protein and calcium you're getting. The human body needs a balance of nutrients to function optimally. Check out this artice: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html

[EdThaSlayer]

Good luck. May your carnivore teeth fall out. I do think the most important thing is not only the diet, but also the activity of the person. So, why don't we all get off our buttocks, away from our computers, and start moving!

[mrgnash]

I was a vegetarian for ten years. You can live without meat, sure -- but you can also be healthy and fit without being a vegetarian. I find some of the advice here a little disturbing. Of course you should be concerned about how much protein and calcium you're getting. The human body needs a balance of nutrients to function optimally. Check out this artice: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html

+1 for referring to Quackwatch.

This is why I don't advocate vegetarianism as simply 'the most healthful' diet. A vegetarian diet can be poor in essential nutrients, just like a diet involving the consumption of meat can be. No matter what dietary scheme you adopt, you have to make sure that it is balanced. So yeah, I see it more as something that makes sense from an ethical perspective, or, if you're like me, you simply don't like eating meat.

[ZapalacX]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B12

And don't forget Sodium, getting that down as low as possible would probably do you more good than becoming a vegetarian

Neither a vegetarian nor omnivorous diet would be conducive to B12 deficiency. It's typically a vegan issue. Sodium has never been conclusively found to be harmful other than in hypertensive patients and those with gastrointestinal ulcers.

I'm not advocating or condemning any diet here. To be sure you can be healthy or unhealthy regardless of diet (for me it's about ethics rather than health) but the above is incorrect. I certainly mean no disrespect to you Mr. Frederick, but as someone with advanced dietetic training i felt compelled not to spread misinformation. A balanced diet of any kind is the best solution.

[fuscia]

if you ate nothing but fresh game (think inuit hunter), you'd have a healthier diet than a vegan who eats nothing but french fries (cooked in vegetable oil) and drinks nothing but instant coffee.

[nickburns]

Wow, you all have given me somethings to think about. It is interesting the ways some people have constructed their arguments. Going to have to put them through the 'fallacy test' and take out what holds up logically.

Either way, lots of good advise and ideas. I think I will start the transition soon, rather than go cold turkey. (pun intended)

Any other advise on the transition?

Recipe ideas?

Pitfalls?

[skirkpatrick]

I've been a vegetarian since July 6th, 1999 (that date has a reason other than my wife). I admit that I'm somewhat of a junk-food vegetarian and my health isn't as good as it could be if I hate better and exercised more.

Pitfall #1: Multi-vitamins. While everyone should take a multi-vitamin because almost nobody eats the way they should, vegetarians need to be careful as to what multi-vitamin they take. Make sure you get vegetarian multi-vitamins as most B vitamins are animal derived.

Pitfall #2: Jello. Even though gelatin is considered kosher (God knows why as it almost exclusively comes from pigs), it is still animal derived. Look for products that use agar-agar instead.

Suggestion #1: Subscribe to Vegetarian Times. They have articles and recipes for both vegetarians and vegans.

[tbranham]

Wow, you all have given me somethings to think about. It is interesting the ways some people have constructed their arguments. Going to have to put them through the 'fallacy test' and take out what holds up logically.

Either way, lots of good advise and ideas. I think I will start the transition soon, rather than go cold turkey. (pun intended)

Any other advise on the transition?

Recipe ideas?

Pitfalls?
I was a hard-core meat-eater throughout my formative years. I dated a vegetarian girl once, but I didn't think it was the life for me. Anyway, I changed my mind about 7 years ago and decided to go vegan. What a change that was! I made the transition, initially, because of health reasons (I'm highly allergic to dairy, which made the transition a little easier). Over time, however, my thoughts changed -- I am far more interested in animal rights. I'm what they call a 'lifestyle vegan'. Essentially, I don't eat any animal products, I don't wear any animal products, I don't buy any animal products.

Anyway, that was just the long way of saying "be prepared for your thoughts to change as you go along."

The only advice I can give you is to become a compulsive label-reader. It's good advice for anybody, really. It will open your eyes on a whole different world. You'd be surprised, for example, what you'll find whey in these days.

For recipe ideas, grab yourself a copy of 'The Garden of Vegan'. Even if you do not plan on eating a vegan-only diet, it's worth it.

Just my $0.02. Good luck, and enjoy a new you.

[az]

I think I will start the transition soon, rather than go cold turkey. (pun intended)

Any other advise on the transition?

Recipe ideas?

Pitfalls?

My wife doesn't like red meat. She will eat it, but will often push a perfectly cooked filet-mignon aside because it makes her thing of a cadaver. While I don't have anything against vegetarianism, there is nothing wrong with going half-way and just avoiding meat when you feel like it. You don't have to either be a meat-eater or a vegetarian.

In your case, you want the benefit of avoiding high-fat food. This can be accomplished with vegetarianism, but you don't have to be a strict vegetarian since you are not doing this for the principle of vegetarianism.

I recently lost 45 pounds by changing my diet and walking for 25 minutes every day. I would think the walking was the most important thing. When you do aerobic work (aerobic work is any activity that gets your heart pumping, but doesn't leave you short of breath), your muscles get used to burning more fat in relation to other sources of energy.

That way, in the middle of the day when your stomach is empty, your blood sugar stays high because the workout you gave your legs for the past few days has made them more able to access stored fat. You feel less hungry. No diet will be successful without excercise.

I made a few common-sense changes to my diet:
1- avoid processed food. Eat whole grains and fresh vegetables instead of packaged alternatives.
2- count calories. Think of it as a budget and everything you eat is a choice. If you make sensible choices, you can be very satisfied by the end of the day. By eating fresh vegetables which are high in fiber (bulk) I am pretty full before I even eat 300 calories of my supper.
3- be creative. I dug out an old italian cookbook and found delicious bean recipies that are very sensible. Polenta is also a winner as it has ferwer calories but as much nutrition as pasta.

Lentils contain a high amount of protein. You can make a spaghetti sauce by substituting lentils (cook them from dried, avoid canned) for most if not all of the meat. Chickpeas are also very versatile. But be careful. Falafels can have more fat than the same sized steak!



Good luck.

[mikeize]

Don't let other people bully or scare you. Everyone has a different body, and what works for some doesn't work for others. As I said before: monitor your body, and seek nutrition in food before multivitamins. You are not going to get sick from a protein or calcium deficiency! Get some soymilk and some peanut butter! You'll be fine. Eat a varied diet with lots of fresh and different-colored veggies and nutrition will essentially take care of itself. As for B12, it isn't so much of a problem if you are not vegan, but even then, your body has a several-years store of it built up already, and you can get more from something like nutritional yeast, which goes great on popcorn, or on top of spaghetti.
You will know whether vegetarianism is right for you LONG before any nutritional deficiencies cause you harm. By the same token, if you can't seem to feel 'nourished' by your new diet, despite making adjustments... then maybe strict vegetarianism isn't for you, no matter what your veggie friends may say.

-mike

Recipe:

1 pkg extra firm tofu
3-5 cloves garlic (minced)
1 Tbsp oil
1.5 tsp fresh black pepper
1 Tbsp light soy sauce

Into non-stick pan over medium-high heat, tear bite-size pieces of tofu. Stir to keep from sticking, until tofu is dried. Add oil. Continue stirring until tofu is golden brown all over. Add minced garlic (you can cook the garlic in its own "corner" of the pan). When garlic is just browned, mix with tofu. Add soy sauce and black pepper. Mix evenly and done!

My wife makes this all the time, and people that hate tofu love it! Play around a bit with the amounts of pepper, garlic, and soy sauce depending on your taste. This is great by itself (think grilled chicken) with some side dishes, but works nicely stirred into curries and spaghetti sauces. Not hard to make, and will become a favorite. I like it also with mashed potatoes and yeast gravy, with steamed sesame kale on the side, YUM!

[mikeize]

My wife doesn't like red meat. She will eat it, but will often push a perfectly cooked filet-mignon aside because it makes her thing of a cadaver. While I don't have anything against vegetarianism, there is nothing wrong with going half-way and just avoiding meat when you feel like it. You don't have to either be a meat-eater or a vegetarian.

In your case, you want the benefit of avoiding high-fat food. This can be accomplished with vegetarianism, but you don't have to be a strict vegetarian since you are not doing this for the principle of vegetarianism.

I recently lost 45 pounds by changing my diet and walking for 25 minutes every day. I would think the walking was the most important thing. When you do aerobic work (aerobic work is any activity that gets your heart pumping, but doesn't leave you short of breath), your muscles get used to burning more fat in relation to other sources of energy.

That way, in the middle of the day when your stomach is empty, your blood sugar stays high because the workout you gave your legs for the past few days has made them more able to access stored fat. You feel less hungry. No diet will be successful without excercise.

I made a few common-sense changes to my diet:
1- avoid processed food. Eat whole grains and fresh vegetables instead of packaged alternatives.
2- count calories. Think of it as a budget and everything you eat is a choice. If you make sensible choices, you can be very satisfied by the end of the day. By eating fresh vegetables which are high in fiber (bulk) I am pretty full before I even eat 300 calories of my supper.
3- be creative. I dug out an old italian cookbook and found delicious bean recipies that are very sensible. Polenta is also a winner as it has ferwer calories but as much nutrition as pasta.

Lentils contain a high amount of protein. You can make a spaghetti sauce by substituting lentils (cook them from dried, avoid canned) for most if not all of the meat. Chickpeas are also very versatile. But be careful. Falafels can have more fat than the same sized steak!



Good luck.

Excellent post!

[Mad_Dawg]

Salad isn't food, it is what food eats. ;)

[LaRoza]

Salad isn't food, it is what food eats. ;)

What a useless post.

May I point out that the largest land animals are vegatarian?

[tbranham]

Don't let other people bully or scare you. Everyone has a different body, and what works for some doesn't work for others. As I said before: monitor your body, and seek nutrition in food before multivitamins. You are not going to get sick from a protein or calcium deficiency! Get some soymilk and some peanut butter! You'll be fine. Eat a varied diet with lots of fresh and different-colored veggies and nutrition will essentially take care of itself. As for B12, it isn't so much of a problem if you are not vegan, but even then, your body has a several-years store of it built up already, and you can get more from something like nutritional yeast, which goes great on popcorn, or on top of spaghetti.
You will know whether vegetarianism is right for you LONG before any nutritional deficiencies cause you harm. By the same token, if you can't seem to feel 'nourished' by your new diet, despite making adjustments... then maybe strict vegetarianism isn't for you, no matter what your veggie friends may say.

-mike

Recipe:

1 pkg extra firm tofu
3-5 cloves garlic (minced)
1 Tbsp oil
1.5 tsp fresh black pepper
1 Tbsp light soy sauce

Into non-stick pan over medium-high heat, tear bite-size pieces of tofu. Stir to keep from sticking, until tofu is dried. Add oil. Continue stirring until tofu is golden brown all over. Add minced garlic (you can cook the garlic in its own "corner" of the pan). When garlic is just browned, mix with tofu. Add soy sauce and black pepper. Mix evenly and done!

My wife makes this all the time, and people that hate tofu love it! Play around a bit with the amounts of pepper, garlic, and soy sauce depending on your taste. This is great by itself (think grilled chicken) with some side dishes, but works nicely stirred into curries and spaghetti sauces. Not hard to make, and will become a favorite. I like it also with mashed potatoes and yeast gravy, with steamed sesame kale on the side, YUM!
mikeize@ I make something similar to this all the time. You're right: Yum!

Also, don't forget Seitan! AFAIK, you can find it with the Tofu in most natural/health food stores. Prepare it the same way. Seriously delicious.

[arashiko28]

Since your plan is to do this for loosing weight, go for it!!!
Now, as a doctor, I recommend you to go to a nutritionist and explain your plans and reasons. You will need a couple of dietary supplements, available on naturist stores to help you do this and keep it. Starting for calcium, since you can't drink milk, and going on diet, you'll lack of calcium and that is something you won't feel now, but when you get older. There is a wide variety of vegetables that can give you enough protein and iron as meat. Me personally stick to a full food pyramid, our bodies are designed to consume everything, after all, we choose what and how to do it.

Best of luck! But remember, even if it's a healthier way, veggies don't give you everything you need, so ask for supplements.

[ceciliaFX]

Salad isn't food, it is what food eats. ;)you know why Popeye eats his famous Spinach when he needs his strength??? because it chock full of antioxydants.

Noting makes you feel better than some good, fresh veggies and fruit!

[LaRoza]

you know why Popeye eats his famous Spinach when he needs his strength??? because it chock full of antioxydants.

Noting makes you feel better than some good, fresh veggies and fruit!

Now, now. Some like to say eating the burnt flesh of dead animals after a week or more after they are killed it is food.

[steveneddy]

How many vegans does it take to change a lightbulb?
None, vegans can't change anything.

or:
None. It's society that needs to change, not the lightbulb.


A man had a parrot that could talk. Unfortunately, it swore a lot. In an effort to get the parrot to be quiet, he put him in a cupboard. The parrot continued swearing and after a while the man decided to put the bird in the freezer. After that, the parrot started swearing even more. After a few minutes, he suddenly became quiet. The man opened up the freezer and the parrot said, "I'm sorry, sir, it will never happen again." As the man took the bird out of the freezer he wondered what the difference was between the cupboard and the freezer. Just then, the parrot said, "So, uh, what'd the chicken do?"

Tongue in cheek, guys.

:popcorn:

[LaRoza]

How many vegans does it take to change a lightbulb?
None, vegans can't change anything.

or:
None. It's society that needs to change, not the lightbulb.


A man had a parrot that could talk. Unfortunately, it swore a lot. In an effort to get the parrot to be quiet, he put him in a cupboard. The parrot continued swearing and after a while the man decided to put the bird in the freezer. After that, the parrot started swearing even more. After a few minutes, he suddenly became quiet. The man opened up the freezer and the parrot said, "I'm sorry, sir, it will never happen again." As the man took the bird out of the freezer he wondered what the difference was between the cupboard and the freezer. Just then, the parrot said, "So, uh, what'd the chicken do?"

Tongue in cheek, guys.

:popcorn:

What was the point?

[evil316]

Why not eat some meat? What about Bison, cheaper than beef, very lean, natural without all the steriods and other things that are done to meat during processing. We eat healthy at my house and use stuff like tofu but we also eat a good amount of bison.

[tbranham]

Why not eat some meat? What about Bison, cheaper than beef, very lean, natural without all the steriods and other things that are done to meat during processing. We eat healthy at my house and use stuff like tofu but we also eat a good amount of bison.
Just run the numbers. Eventually, we all need to start eating closer to the sun.

[fuscia]

you know why Popeye eats his famous Spinach when he needs his strength??? because it chock full of antioxydants.

i've actually heard that antioxydants retard the increase of mass. something to do with interfering with the process of breaking down muscle.

[mr.propre]

Why is it when you try to improve yourself people fight against you? I have had haters already try to talk me out of my goal. I guess they are mad they are not improving.

Ignore them, if they don't respect your chose, than you don't need to respect them. I had luck when I became a vegetarian, most people in my surroundings are vegetarians, though I decided to become it because out of health and they more because of the animals. I respect people eating meat, but I just don't eat it and since I started (over 3 years ago) I never felt health than now and it gives a real boost of confidence knowing you can keep it that way and knowing that it is a decision YOU made.

Good luck

ps: sorry for my bad english, I'm working on it ;-)

[ceciliaFX]

i've actually heard that antioxydants retard the increase of mass. something to do with interfering with the process of breaking down muscle.antioxydants help build up your cells.

I'm no expert and everyone here can certainly do their own research, but everyone should know that veggies and fruit are all about the antioxydants! The darker the color (in general), the more antioxydants.

frankly, I think a basic Italian or Greek cuisine is probably one of the healthist. Lots of fresh veggies and fruit and some fish (ah, those Omaga 3's!) and some lamb.

[fuscia]

antioxydants help build up your cells.

they don't build up your cells, they retard oxidation and the increase of free radicals. i'm guessing the theory i had heard about has to do with the process of tearing down muscle and then rebuilding it in an effort to increase mass. the more i think about it, the sillier it seems to me.

[kryth]

I'm mostly vegan, in that I'm not to crazy about checking for hidden egg and milk in products. But I don't intentional eat them. I love soy milk. If you want to try it, I would try the favored stuff first or with ceral.
In the past I've been a veg head on and off for a month or so. Mostly to be 'cool'. But what drived it home for me was a book 'The ethics of what we eat' or 'factory farming' and also watching a movie call 'Earthlings' you can find it on google video.

PEace.

[Lster]

I'm not vegetarian or vegan but I only eat organic due to ethical reasons such as factory farming and health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_farming#Ethics

Organic also tastes a whole lot better (in my opinion anyway!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Taste_and_nutritional_value
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Children.27s_health

[Linuxratty]

I'm a vegetarian during the week and will eat chicken or fish on the weekend.
Stir fry veggies, curried veggies,lots of veggie soups,that sort of thing.are high on my list,as are various bean dishes.
I might eat beef or pork once a year,if that often.
Soy Milk is a favrotite of mine,as I'm really allergic to cow's milk...
Anyway,good luck with this. You will find it's not as difficult as you think...There are lots of wonderful Greek food that is vegetarian,as an example.

[ZylGadis]

I am not a vegetarian. I do not understand the "ethical" reasons for being vegetarian, and the rest (health, weight, etc) do not apply to me - I am very healthy and very lean because I am careful about what I eat and do. Can someone please explain the "ethical" reasons for being a vegetarian or a vegan? Note that this is not teasing, trolling, or whatever you call it - I am genuinely interested.

My reasoning of the above mentioned ethical reasons is such: you do not like the fact that animals necessarily have to die to fill your belly, that is why you prefer not to eat them. Or, alternatively, you do not like farming in its modern incarnation, that is why you prefer not to support it.

The first reason to me is moot. It is simply a line that the undereducated draw. It is guilt relief. Has anyone ever thought of plant rights, for example? Why do plants have to die to fill your belly? If we decide to go along in that direction, how do you know that minerals do not suffer when you eat them? You simply choose to protect the animals, because they look the most like you.

What is wrong in the world is not eating animals. It is the existence of the food chain. So either eat all you want, or eat nothing (except maybe fruit, and even that is controversial), or do your best to alter the fundamental parameters of this universe (in this case, the existence of the food chain), eating all you want in the meantime. Drawing the line in the middle of the food chain is either hypocritical or ignorant.

The second reason I acknowledge whole-heartedly. The way most farms (at least in USA and some countries in Europe) work is horrendous. I fully support the fight against cruelty to animals (and plants), and that is why I am very careful about the food I eat. You do not have to be vegetarian to do that, however - you simply have to be informed. There are plenty of ethical farms.

Thank you for your informed arguments.

[macogw]

Also check out "Diet For a New America."

I'm a vegetarian. I've been vegetarian for a bit over a year and was pescatarian (I ate fish) for 2 before that. I'm also lactose-intolerant, so my dairy consumption is minimal. Vegans may have to watch their diets, but if you eat eggs, you'll be fine. If you're female, consider taking iron supplements if you're also not a fan of dark green leafies (spinach, collard greens, mustard greens, amaranth, etc).

Oh, I agree with mikeize about Indian food showing you how great vegetarian can be. Indian and Ethiopian food are amazing and incredibly healthy vegetarian/vegan food. Oh, Thai food too. Thai peanut, fried tofu with peanut sauce...mmm yummy.

A common mistake among meat-eaters is thinking that vegetarians just eat salads or side dishes of boiled corn. Puh-lease! There's so much wonderful stuff that can be done with vegetables. Most of them, meat-eaters never find because they don't ever seek ways to make vegetables the focus of the meal.

If you'd like a very good vegetarian (not vegan, it has mayo (I use lite mayo), but vegannaise might work) recipe for veggie burgers (much better than store-bought), look here: http://ask.metafilter.com/69336/How-to-make-awesome-veggie-burgers (the Cooks Illustrated one)

[Kimmik]

The first reason to me is moot. It is simply a line that the undereducated draw. It is guilt relief. Has anyone ever thought of plant rights, for example? Why do plants have to die to fill your belly? If we decide to go along in that direction, how do you know that minerals do not suffer when you eat them? You simply choose to protect the animals, because they look the most like you.


No. I eat minerals and plants because they don't feel "pain". They don't have a brain, and they have no feelings like animals.

Animals need to be protected because they are so highly developed beings. If you look for example at cats, they have dreams!
Question to you:
If the biological view (does it have a brain/feelings etc) doesn't matter, why don't you eat apes or even other humans?
Where do you draw the line, and why?

Is there really so much difference between humans and animals?

I would say no.
We are evolved from animals and we are still animals.
But we have developed something called compassion and we should use it to minimize the suffering of each living thing on earth.

[macogw]

I am not a vegetarian. I do not understand the "ethical" reasons for being vegetarian, and the rest (health, weight, etc) do not apply to me - I am very healthy and very lean because I am careful about what I eat and do. Can someone please explain the "ethical" reasons for being a vegetarian or a vegan? Note that this is not teasing, trolling, or whatever you call it - I am genuinely interested.

My reasoning of the above mentioned ethical reasons is such: you do not like the fact that animals necessarily have to die to fill your belly, that is why you prefer not to eat them. Or, alternatively, you do not like farming in its modern incarnation, that is why you prefer not to support it.

The first reason to me is moot. It is simply a line that the undereducated draw. It is guilt relief. Has anyone ever thought of plant rights, for example? Why do plants have to die to fill your belly? If we decide to go along in that direction, how do you know that minerals do not suffer when you eat them? You simply choose to protect the animals, because they look the most like you.
I believe the usual answer is "plants aren't conscious of it / don't scream."


What is wrong in the world is not eating animals. It is the existence of the food chain. So either eat all you want, or eat nothing (except maybe fruit, and even that is controversial), or do your best to alter the fundamental parameters of this universe (in this case, the existence of the food chain), eating all you want in the meantime. Drawing the line in the middle of the food chain is either hypocritical or ignorant.

Thank you for your informed arguments.
Maybe the food-chain for species that are naturally carnivores or omnivores, but um...
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/Tonsilitis/checklist.jpg
If you think it's all made up, just compare a real carnivore (ex: wolf, lion, tiger) 's facial features to a human's. You'll get it.

[Kimmik]

The first reason to me is moot. It is simply a line that the undereducated draw.

That's offensive and wrong.

[ZapalacX]

macogw, i love your post and your icon! Awesome! To expound on the ethics, i would suggest one look at vegan outreach or farm sanctuary. The philosophy of Peter Singer is also great.

I just can't fathom the hate some people bring. Ad hominem is never called for.

[Pethegreat]

I am an eater of whatever tastes good. I just need to watch how much I eat. It would be awesome if we had food in pill form like all the 50's sci-fi movies showed. Take a few pills for breakfast, a few for lunch, and an few for dinner. You get the right amount of what you need. Yes, eating would no longer be fun. You would have more time though since you no longer have to eat.

I am fine with people be vegan/vegetarian as long as they take care of their bodies. If they don't, then someone is going to say that vegetarian=bad.

[ticopelp]

I am an eater of whatever tastes good. I just need to watch how much I eat. It would be awesome if we had food in pill form like all the 50's sci-fi movies showed. Take a few pills for breakfast, a few for lunch, and an few for dinner. You get the right amount of what you need. Yes, eating would no longer be fun. You would have more time though since you no longer have to eat.


I wouldn't find that awesome at all. Eating is one of life's most reliable pleasures.

[macogw]

Choco pill < chocolate

[fuscia]

i think i'd prefer a pill that would allow me to eat as much as i want of whatever i want, and not gain weight. i'd go broke from ordering pizza.

[logos34]

i think i'd prefer a pill that would allow me to eat as much as i want of whatever i want, and not gain weight. i'd go broke from ordering pizza.

but make that pizza AND beer for me

[fuscia]

but make that pizza AND beer for me

beer was implied.

[logos34]

beer was implied.

I kind of suspected it might be.

Jeez, now I'm going to be craving three-cheeze pizza and beer all night...

[fuscia]

I kind of suspected it might be.

Jeez, now I'm going to be craving three-cheeze pizza and beer all night...

i just took a wings and a pitcher pill. i'm stuffed.

[logos34]

i just too a wings and a pitcher pill.

edit: a large beer stein pill would be nice (no wings for me--although I loved chicken in my meat-eating days)

talking about fatty foods: I've been a vegetarian for about five years now and I've really lost a lot of weight. All that animal fat gone from my diet (except residual things like margerine and some cheese)...fat is a lot harder to work off than a ton of carbs. Now I'm turning into a vegan and I've lost even more weight...it's shocking. (that's why I'm craving cheese pizza and beer). High-fiber, low cholesterol, vegetarian diet is the way to go. I hardly have to exercise anymore.

[transgress]

didn't read all 8 pages, but if someone has posted this sorry. If not then you should definitely visit

www.beyondveg.com

[mikeize]

Can someone please explain the "ethical" reasons for being a vegetarian or a vegan? Note that this is not teasing, trolling, or whatever you call it - I am genuinely interested.


good start...



It is simply a line that the undereducated draw. It is guilt relief.

Drawing the line in the middle of the food chain is either hypocritical or ignorant.

Thank you for your informed arguments.

poor finish!

Your conscience is your own, and I so is mine... but please don't think that because I (and millions of others) live a different lifestyle, that we are 'undereducated' or 'ignorant'. Most vegetarians/vegans thought long and hard about making the choice, and many found within themselves moral/ethical reasons to eventually do so.

Let's look at your first 'argument'. You seem to be saying that while suffering is bad, there is no essential difference between the suffering of animals and plants, correct? Therefore, you reason it is in vain that we (es)chew one over the other, from a desire to minimize our causation of suffering. This is false reasoning.

Animals, eat plants, insects or other animals. For them to reach edible and delicious maturity, they must consume quite a lot of these things. Of course, when we eat the cow or the chicken, we are partaking of the energy (and suffering) of all the grain, bugs, etc, which has sustained the cow/chicken over its lifespan. However, in accordance with physical laws, much of this energy/suffering is 'wasted' on the way from grain>cow>our belly.

Understood in this way, vegetarianism is simply more efficient in terms of both calories and suffering. If you add to this simple idea, the environmental problems/pollution (read: suffering to plants and animals as well as human beings) due to fertilizer, pesticides, hormones, antibiotics and animal waste... vegetarian/veganism becomes ever more clearly a reasonable ethical choice, in so far as aiming to reduce suffering is an ethical one.

I really don't care what you do, but please don't preach at/insult people. It's one of the most annoying things you can do, whether you're a vegan, a cattle-rancher, an atheist or a missionary.

-mike

[LaRoza]

I am not a vegetarian. I do not understand the "ethical" reasons for being vegetarian, and the rest (health, weight, etc) do not apply to me - I am very healthy and very lean because I am careful about what I eat and do. Can someone please explain the "ethical" reasons for being a vegetarian or a vegan? Note that this is not teasing, trolling, or whatever you call it - I am genuinely interested.


Truly, there are no universal ethical reasons for being a vegan (like me).

Some, like the Inuit, eat animal flesh exclusively and do so in good health.

My personal view is that the human diet is naturally omnivore BUT with a heavy emphasis on plants. If you were dropped in a natural environment, which I imagine to be some sort of jungle/rain forest, you would probably only eat vegatables and fruit.

Take the average amount of meat the average person eat, then lets see what amount of effort and work that would take for a single person in a natural environment.

With grocery stores stocked as they are, I see no reason to eat animal products for health reasons and ethical reasons.

[thx11381974]

If you were dropped in a natural environment, which I imagine to be some sort of jungle/rain forest, you would probably only eat vegatables and fruit.

I don't think there is a single rain forest tribe that doesn't eat meat more than that most anthropologists believe that eating meat was necessary to the evolution of the human mind.

I have a cousin who's a vegetarian he seems healthy, but no more or less healthy than anyone else his age. No I take that back their's plenty less healthy than him, he's just not more healthy than normal.
I'm not sure weight loss is a good reason to be a vegetarian there are health concerns with a vegetarian diet, though It's probably more healthy diet than most eat.

My advice on weight loss is to stay away from junk food and fast food places. that includes the frozen food section at the grocery store. Processed foods are all whether they have meat or not, Pure Crap. Living alone I used to eat out every night I've cut that back to about twice a week and I've lost about 35 pounds over the last year or so. I don't consider this a diet as much as life style change. I'm not saying don't be a vegetarian it's a life change too, I just saying it's not only one to consider.

[LaRoza]

My advice on weight loss is to stay away from junk food and fast food places. that includes the frozen food section at the grocery store. Processed foods are all whether they have meat or not, Pure Crap. Living alone I used to eat out every night I've cut that back to about twice a week and I've lost about 35 pounds over the last year or so. I don't consider this a diet as much as life style change. I'm not saying don't be a vegetarian it's a life change too, I just saying it's not only one to consider.

For pure weight loss, the simplest and best advice I can give is to not eat anything with flour or sugar added and to eat vegatables in each meal (no matter what the meal is).

Glad to hear about you results! I always tell people not to eat anything if they can't tell where it came from.

[graabein]

Thinking of going vegetarian in the next month or so.

Good for you! I have several friends who are vegetarian (but not necessarily healthy). I try to eat vegetarian a couple of times a week.

[Nunu]

Sorry if i sound ignorant but what is a vegan?

[graabein]

Sorry if i sound ignorant but what is a vegan?

They not only abstain from eating meat and fish but any animal product like eggs and dairy products etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

[jeffus_il]

I have been vegetarian for over thirty years, Still pink and no B12 deficiency, After reading all those dumb medical reports, I eventually decided that I would be getting good nutrition if I always ate meals with a large variety of colors, greens, reds, oranges, don't find much blue around, plenty yellows ....

It works!


Thinking of going vegetarian in the next month or so.

Any of you vegetarian?

Hints on starting?

Advice?

Thoughts?

[Nunu]

They not only abstain from eating meat and fish but any animal product like eggs and dairy products etc.

oh ok i am one of those to then :) urm no wait i do drink milk.

[happy-and-lost]

If you have a strong stomach, find PETA's "Meet Yor Meat" video.

7 years and I haven't even had a whiff of bacon.

[fuscia]

Some, like the Inuit, eat animal flesh exclusively and do so in good health.

My personal view is that the human diet is naturally omnivore BUT with a heavy emphasis on plants. If you were dropped in a natural environment, which I imagine to be some sort of jungle/rain forest, you would probably only eat vegatables and fruit.

depends on the natural environment. if you're dropped in a remote area of canada, in february, you're not going to be eating as much fruit as you would at an apple festival, for example.

[igknighted]

I tried it and it was a good experience... just not for me. I wasn't getting enough iron and got anemic and to be honest, I absolutley love beef and could never give it up.

[Ultra Magnus]

Make sure you eat plenty of nuts so you get enough protein.

I don't know why anyone would want to give up eating meat though - If your worried about fat and being healthy then you really need to stop eating things like chips, crisps, chololate bars and processed meat which all contain too much saturated fat. This is the real problem with peoples diets today.

Go to a good butchers and get some good quality meat, it'll do you more good than just ditching meat but not making the changes to your diet that will really help you.

[LaRoza]

I don't know why anyone would want to give up eating meat though - If your worried about fat and being healthy then you really need to stop eating things like chips, crisps, chololate bars and processed meat which all contain too much saturated fat. This is the real problem with peoples diets today.

Go to a good butchers and get some good quality meat, it'll do you more good than just ditching meat but not making the changes to your diet that will really help you.

For a different view, I find the smell and site of meat disgusting, it isn't food to me.

[fuscia]

do any of you vegetarians, for ethical reasons, insist your pets be vegetarian as well? if not, how do you feel about killing animals to feed your pets?

[Incense]

For a different view, I find the smell and site of meat disgusting, it isn't food to me.

+1, I just see dead flesh.

[fuscia]

For a different view, I find the smell and site of meat disgusting, it isn't food to me.


+1, I just see dead flesh.

neither of you have ever eaten meat? we have neighbors whose kids have been vegetarian from the start.

[LaRoza]

neither of you have ever eaten meat? we have neighbors whose kids have been vegetarian from the start.

I have, in fact, I once daily ate (and prepared) near raw steak.

I was big on milk (.5 gallon's a day) and meat. Being a vegan (with no transition) was the best thing I ever did.

[nickburns]

Seems to me that this type of discussion is very similar to the whole linux argument.

Here is how:

1. Don't push your beliefs on people, let them get curious and ask, then try to sell them on it.

2. It may not be a good fit for everyone.

3. Logical thinking and sound arguments work great, not emotional rhetoric.

4. When in doubt, do what ever you want.

I am just very happy with all the good people that posted ideas, support and encouragement for my choice. I have decided to start up this week, and ease into it, rather than all at once.

I have to do some more research into recipes, need to have a better meal game plan together before going all the way. I am starting to see that you can be vegetarian, but eat only fries, donuts and orange juice all day. (Bad Idea). Need to get the whole stir fry / Indian food thing going.

[fuscia]

I have, in fact, I once daily ate (and prepared) near raw steak.

I was big on milk (.5 gallon's a day) and meat. Being a vegan (with no transition) was the best thing I ever did.

ah! i misunderstood. i took you to mean you never saw meat as food.

[LaRoza]

do any of you vegetarians, for ethical reasons, insist your pets be vegetarian as well? if not, how do you feel about killing animals to feed your pets?

I don't have pets, but when I did, I wasn't a vegan but the animal was a vegatarian anyway.

Some animals, like cats, are natural predators and are suited for eating flesh food. The meat found in pet food is very bad and is probably the last thing I would give to an animal.

There are vegatarian and vegan foods for cats that claim to be healthy, and given no backlash against them, they must work, otherwise there would be an uproar over the legions of starved animals.

I would allow a cat, if I had one, to eat meat especially if it caught it itself (nature, you know) but I would be very hesitant to buy the carnage found in the stores, which is most unnatural.

[Incense]

Seems to me that this type of discussion is very similar to the whole linux argument.

Here is how:

1. Don't push your beliefs on people, let them get curious and ask, then try to sell them on it.

2. It may not be a good fit for everyone.

3. Logical thinking and sound arguments work great, not emotional rhetoric.

4. When in doubt, do what ever you want.



That holds true for anything you are passionate about.

[LaRoza]

That holds true for anything you are passionate about.

Opera, Vim, Linux, Intel processors (for now, at least), ThinkPads, Veganism

[lvleph]

I have been a vegetarian for... Hmmm, 15 years. I don't eat eggs and haven't for 10 years The key is creativity. Just because something takes meat or uses eggs does not mean it has to. I don't like to use meat substitutes, because most don't taste that great and are expensive. However, I do make my own seitan. Here is the recipe for all of you vegies.


SEITAN
2 C. Wheat Gluten (http://www.amazon.com/Vital-Wheat-Gluten-3-5-Pound/dp/B0006ZN52E/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gourmet-food&qid=1199368108&sr=8-1)
2 C. Warm Water
2 T. Vegetable Oil
1 T. Soy Sauce
1 Vegetable Bullion Cube

Preheat oven to 325F. Dissolve the Bullion in the Warm Water.
Mix all ingedients together. Kneed for 10+ minutes. The
consistancy should be something like bread dough, but it will be
very sticky and elastic. If it is too wet add a little more gluten.
Once you are satisfied with how long you have kneeded, cut
into 4 equal parts. Each part will be rolled tightly in tin foil so
that it has the shape of a big sausage (3" diameter). Bake in
the oven for 2 hours. If the inside is gum like it wasn't cooked
long enough, so cook it for longer next time.

This will have the same flavor and texture as Tofurky. I tried making them bigger and putting stuffing in it but it just was not working due to the gummy texture. I will have to think about temp and baking time for that.

This recipe I made up and I don't actually measure things. I pretty much eye ball it, so take those measurements with a grain of salt. Be creative and add your own style to it. I have seen plenty of seitan recipes in which you boil the seitan inside a broth, I could never get the texture I wanted until I decided to put the broth in the seitan and bake it. If you have any comments, questions, or would like to discuss recipes just pm me. I love to cook!

EDIT: Here is my Fried Seitan, which I also don't measure so...

Fried Seitan
Seitan
1/2 C. Mustard
1 C. Flour
1/8 C. Corn Meal
1/8 C. Nutritional Yeast
2 T. McCormick Chicken Seasoning
Plenty of Vegetable Oil for frying

Mix all dry ingredients together. You can put this on a plate.
Cut seitan into bite size pieces. I don't cube it because it
seems so unnatural to have fried cubes, so I cut ad hoc. lol
Coat your seitan in the mustard. I like mine with plenty of
mustard. Then coat with flour mixture. Fry until crisp and
golden brown.

Oh and as you can see this is all vegan!

[fuscia]

There are vegatarian and vegan foods for cats that claim to be healthy, and given no backlash against them, they must work, otherwise there would be an uproar over the legions of starved animals.

i don't think there are legions of cats on vegetarian diets. the ones who are can probably survive on it, but as carnivores, i don't think it's a good diet for them. even apes in captivity, who are often put on vegetarian diets, will often have reproductive trouble because they're not getting the right diet.

[LaRoza]

i don't think there are legions of cats on vegetarian diets. the ones who are can probably survive on it, but as carnivores, i don't think it's a good diet for them. even apes in captivity, who are often put on vegetarian diets, will often have reproductive trouble because they're not getting the right diet.

Compared to the number of cats, no, but if they all died, then I would say a legion.

[Incense]

do any of you vegetarians, for ethical reasons, insist your pets be vegetarian as well? if not, how do you feel about killing animals to feed your pets?

For ethical reasons, I would not push my beleifs on my animals. I have two dogs and a cat who are meat eaters by nature. We want them all to remain healthy, and do not push a plant based diet on them.

[jeffus_il]

Apes are vegetarian, I know so, and so does the BBC (almost as good as quoting the bible)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6248975.stm

[fuscia]

Apes are vegetarian, I know so, and so does the BBC (almost as good as quoting the bible)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6248975.stm

no they aren't. apes eat tons of insect and chimpanzees even kill other chimps and eat them.

[jeffus_il]

I have a deal with my dog, I don't eat him and he won't eat me, a good deal, No, I won't try and convince him to become a vegetarian, but I also won't prepare him steaks. He gets those good old chunks made of who knows what.
I find it a little difficult to eat something that can stare at me, also I know that if I had to slaughter an animal myself , I would not be able to ingest the bloody mess. I'm too squeamish for that, I know its easier to eat the neatly wrapped stuff at the supermarket, but then I would be avoiding reality.

[Incense]

neither of you have ever eaten meat? we have neighbors whose kids have been vegetarian from the start.

Growing up my parents were (and still are) big meat eaters. My father is really big on hunting as well. It wasn't until I moved out and got married, that I changed my lifestyle.

[fuscia]

Growing up my parents were (and still are) big meat eaters. My father is really big on hunting as well. It wasn't until I moved out and got married, that I changed my lifestyle.

so, it might be more accurate to say that you've changed your mind about how you view meat than to say you don't think of it as food.

[ZapalacX]

Dnftt

[Incense]

I have a deal with my dog, I don't eat him and he won't eat me, a good deal

:lolflag:

I also have that deal with my dogs, but my cat would not agree to it.

[jeffus_il]

Strange, I have the same problem with two cats at this end of the Universe.

[LaRoza]

no they aren't. apes eat tons of insect and chimpanzees even kill other chimps and eat them.

I know about the insects, but they are a difficult sell in the USA.

[fuscia]

I know about the insects, but they are a difficult sell in the USA.

not to apes. and, apparently, not to my cat.

[LaRoza]

not to apes. and, apparently, not to my cat.

There is a fine tradition of insect eating in other cultures, but it seems to have fizzled in the "modern world", at least, in my neck of the woods.

[fuscia]

i've had fried grasshoppers. i know you're probably not going to believe this, but they tasted like overcooked chicken.

[LaRoza]

i've had fried grasshoppers. i know you're probably not going to believe this, but they tasted like overcooked chicken.

I don't really remember what chicken tastes like, so I'll take your word for it.

[Incense]

so, it might be more accurate to say that you've changed your mind about how you view meat than to say you don't think of it as food.

Well it is a fact that meat is not part of my diet, and at this point I would not call it food. Your statement is also accurate though; I did make that choice and my perceptions have since changed.

[jeffus_il]

I swallowed a fly once, Suppose I was talking too much ...

[LaRoza]

I swallowed a fly once, Suppose I was talking too much ...

Did you swallow a spider to catch it?

[Flyingjester]

I thought about going vegetarian too.. but then i thought you know how many nuts i'd have to eat to keep benching 280 and not have my muscles waste away.. .i'd have to eat.. like all the time.

[LaRoza]

I thought about going vegetarian too.. but then i thought you know how many nuts i'd have to eat to keep benching 280 and not have my muscles waste away.. .i'd have to eat.. like all the time.

A little paranoia?

Read about Bill Pearl and Danny Padilla, the body building fads and myths are not all true. (One a vegatarian and the other a low protein diet) Also read Mike Mentzer's works and thoughts on diet.

Remember: the largest land animals don't eat any meat

[fuscia]

I thought about going vegetarian too.. but then i thought you know how many nuts i'd have to eat to keep benching 280 and not have my muscles waste away.. .i'd have to eat.. like all the time.

check out this guy's site - http://www.mikemahler.com/
he's a vegan and, if i recall correctly, has a few articles on staying strong on a vegan diet.

[LaRoza]

I am much stronger than any body builders my size.

I would like any body builder (male or female) do a handstand pushup, or even just 20 full range of motion pullups.

[lvleph]

I thought about going vegetarian too.. but then i thought you know how many nuts i'd have to eat to keep benching 280 and not have my muscles waste away.. .i'd have to eat.. like all the time.

Roy Hilligen (http://cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm) Mr. America 1951 was a vegetarian. If you do a search you will find a lot of others.

EDIT: Address is http://cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm Not sure why it is not working

[LaRoza]

This guy (http://cbass.com/Hilligenn.html) is a bodybuilder and a vegetarian.

404

http://cbass.com/

[Flyingjester]

http://www.new-fitness.com/nutrition/protein.html no simple facts about protein.

[Flyingjester]

btw, i weigh in at 240, so if we're going by the RDA i would need just about 90 grams of protein.

[jeffus_il]

http://www.new-fitness.com/nutrition/protein.html no simple facts about protein.

The complete and incomplete protein approach is inaccurate because it assumes that you use only one food as a protein source. If you combine a number of "incomplete" protein sources together, you can get a "complete" protein. The article likes beans alot as a protein source:

Quote:

Did you know?

Beans provide nearly as much protein as meat, and are much lower in fat and calories. One cup of cooked beans contains 12 to 25 grams of protein, which is 25 to 50 percent of the RDA. The right protein to lower cholesterol (http://www.cholesterol-monitor.com/protein.html)

[Flyingjester]

right so we if we amp that up to what i need i would need just about 4 cups of beans... that's a helluva lot of beans to eat, don't you think? besides it even makes mention that the leway is 15% either way of the RDA to account for what you speak of

[Dimitriid]

Still a lot of things I find surprising.

1) There is nothing objectionable about the appearance of meat. The perception some have expressed its delusional and irrational and definitely makes a strong case for "guilt" as the real reason: Anybody who would try to eat "dead flesh" would get violently ill and die after more than 1 or 2 repetitions within a month or so. Meat has to be conserved pretty much virtually identical to "living flesh" in order for humans to be able to consume it.

You need to go to a morgue or a cemetery and compare that to a supermarket before you go out on such an hyperbole.

2) I find the prices of organic foods unjustifiable. They are becoming luxury items only very well off individuals on imperialist countries can afford. The sad thing is that plenty of our farming for example, is completely "organic" and follows all the ethics and such yet farmers have no chance of paying the fee's to get an "organic" certification.

This is very typical of western cultures but no less aggravating: taking a very good concept and ruin it with greed making money at the expense of people's good hearted desires to improve their health.

It seems only the food industry wins: it wins whenever you give in and purchase mass produced things from industrialized farms and it wins even more when they jack the prices 400 or 500% in some cases for organic foods.

3) The dilemma of animal rights. First of all, there is enough human suffering going on and many people still become very active and militant about animal rights while they don't say a word about things like their government invading and killing actual human beings. Sometimes I wish we could put a few bunnies on the middle east to get all this vegans on board and put those incredible efforts invested on their activist campaigns to solve the problems of fellow humans, which by the way are much more advanced than any mineral, plant or animal and have a much worst damage from torture and abuse.

But if its not cuddly and is instead Muslim then I guess is not worthy of going that extra mile many of these guys go for animals.

For that matter take a look around your cities and try to have a talk with homeless people and drug addicts living of your animal-conscience organic vegan trash: you'd find out that more than a few ended up like that cause of things out of their control like mental illness, child abuse or war.

4) While It might seem so, I don't think that points 1, 2 and 3 are coincidentally shared by many vegans and vegetarians. The whole thing has a very real and observable pattern and vibe, and therefore subculture to it. And in the bourgeoisie whenever there is a subculture, there is somebody making a killing from it. You turn your back on a few evil corporations and businesses like walmart, starbucks, mcdonalds, etc. only to embrace an up and coming chain of new "organic" coffee houses, health food stores, etc. Its almost way too convenient to keep you all preoccupied with animal rights, vegan diets, organic foods while the rest of the world and a huge part of your own citizens you turn a blind eye to struggle to have a decent meal and a life without persecution, poverty, violence and death thrown their way.

I guess is better to encourage animal rights militants and keep em focused on their phantom enemies as opposed to political activists who raise more immediate concerns and ask questions that are more difficult to respond to.

[fuscia]

i think strength and mass have a lot more to do with training and getting enough to eat than being excessively picky about what to eat.

[jeffus_il]

Huh!?

[lvleph]

Still a lot of things I find surprising.

1) There is nothing objectionable about the appearance of meat. The perception some have expressed its delusional and irrational and definitely makes a strong case for "guilt" as the real reason: Anybody who would try to eat "dead flesh" would get violently ill and die after more than 1 or 2 repetitions within a month or so. Meat has to be conserved pretty much virtually identical to "living flesh" in order for humans to be able to consume it.

You need to go to a morgue or a cemetery and compare that to a supermarket before you go out on such an hyperbole.

2) I find the prices of organic foods unjustifiable. They are becoming luxury items only very well off individuals on imperialist countries can afford. The sad thing is that plenty of our farming for example, is completely "organic" and follows all the ethics and such yet farmers have no chance of paying the fee's to get an "organic" certification.

This is very typical of western cultures but no less aggravating: taking a very good concept and ruin it with greed making money at the expense of people's good hearted desires to improve their health.

It seems only the food industry wins: it wins whenever you give in and purchase mass produced things from industrialized farms and it wins even more when they jack the prices 400 or 500% in some cases for organic foods.

3) The dilemma of animal rights. First of all, there is enough human suffering going on and many people still become very active and militant about animal rights while they don't say a word about things like their government invading and killing actual human beings. Sometimes I wish we could put a few bunnies on the middle east to get all this vegans on board and put those incredible efforts invested on their activist campaigns to solve the problems of fellow humans, which by the way are much more advanced than any mineral, plant or animal and have a much worst damage from torture and abuse.

But if its not cuddly and is instead Muslim then I guess is not worthy of going that extra mile many of these guys go for animals.

For that matter take a look around your cities and try to have a talk with homeless people and drug addicts living of your animal-conscience organic vegan trash: you'd find out that more than a few ended up like that cause of things out of their control like mental illness, child abuse or war.

4) While It might seem so, I don't think that points 1, 2 and 3 are coincidentally shared by many vegans and vegetarians. The whole thing has a very real and observable pattern and vibe, and therefore subculture to it. And in the bourgeoisie whenever there is a subculture, there is somebody making a killing from it. You turn your back on a few evil corporations and businesses like walmart, starbucks, mcdonalds, etc. only to embrace an up and coming chain of new "organic" coffee houses, health food stores, etc. Its almost way too convenient to keep you all preoccupied with animal rights, vegan diets, organic foods while the rest of the world and a huge part of your own citizens you turn a blind eye to struggle to have a decent meal and a life without persecution, poverty, violence and death thrown their way.

I guess is better to encourage animal rights militants and keep em focused on their phantom enemies as opposed to political activists who raise more immediate concerns and ask questions that are more difficult to respond to.

Being a vegetarian is better for the environment. You missed that.
3. Which then addresses the issue with human suffering. Also, maybe you should look into [url=http://www.foodnotbombs.net/]Food Not Bombs[./url] We serve vegan food to the Homeless, so that also shoots down number three.

2. Eating organic doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a vegetarian. I don't eat organic, because I realize that we cannot feed the world on organics.

4. I am Anarchist, so I don't disagree with you.

[fuscia]

Being a vegetarian is better for the environment.

looking at it from a historical perspective, though, conversion from a hunter-gatherer species to an agrarian species has probably been responsible for the explosion of our numbers. it's a fair assumption to say that all environmental problems would be reduced if there were fewer of us.

[jeffus_il]

A vegetarian needs about a sixth of the land space of that needed by a meat eater, so I read once, Yep, there are too many of us around, We can start culling, Who would you like to start with?

P.S. The vegetarian-meat eating discussion is fun but goes nowhere, just like the atheist-believer one, the discussion generally strengthens beliefs on both sides and polarizes them.

[Dimitriid]

Being a vegetarian is better for the environment. You missed that.

The environment agenda is similar to this agenda I was discussing: a diversion tactic used to fish out people away from more important and immediate political issues like war an occupation.



3. Which then addresses the issue with human suffering. Also, maybe you should look into [url=http://www.foodnotbombs.net/]Food Not Bombs[./url] We serve vegan food to the Homeless, so that also shoots down number three.


This is one of the worst examples I can think off: first off you run a charity instead of addressing more fundamental problems caused by capitalism and imperialism, thus solving little or nothing for this people's other than getting a meal once in a while without any real chance of escaping poverty and misery.

Second the meal you provide is actually not nearly enough to give people many nutrients they need in a cost effective way. There has been discussion in this thread of how a vegan diet is hard to get right and balance correctly, often requiring artificial aids or very careful planning. I think people who have infrequent access to food and certainly no access to vitamins and other supplements would benefit more from a meal that would include some meat on it. At the very least other important elements like eggs, milk, cheese, etc.

It any case it wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't a charity, but when a flawed concept like charity is joined by a flawed execution it becomes something specially pointless.



2. Eating organic doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a vegetarian. I don't eat organic, because I realize that we cannot feed the world on organics.


And im sure there are some organic food lovers who do eat meat cause they enjoy it and dont agree with the ethical dilemmas, it doesn't means that the two lines of thought, organic food and vegan/vegetarian diets are not closely tied often advocated by the exact same people, as testimony take this thread where both subjects were brought up to our attention. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

[jeffus_il]

Duh!?

[fuscia]

We can start culling, Who would you like to start with?


my list would save the planet, but it's probably better to cut down on our future numbers.

[jeffus_il]

Not serious, was just being a little facetious,
What will we do when billions of Chinese and Indians exercise their right to own and drive an automobile, like most Europeans and Americans. I think we will be gasping for air to breathe.

[zekopeko]

my list would save the planet, but it's probably better to cut down on our future numbers.

and how do you propose we do that? population control so that there are less children or we shoot anyone over 65?

[zekopeko]

Not serious, was just being a little facetious,
What will we do when billions of Chinese and Indians exercise their right to own and drive an automobile, like most Europeans and Americans. I think we will be gasping for air to breathe.

the Chinese already are gasping for air. also you can thank consumerism for inefficient cars in America. that's the problem with cultures that have relatively small number of people and a great deal of resources. they never plan in advance.

just look at Japanese. they are pretty efficient when cars are in question.

[Incense]

Well, this thread has taken an interesting turn.

[LaRoza]

i think strength and mass have a lot more to do with training and getting enough to eat than being excessively picky about what to eat.

Actually, it is neurological efficiency. Physicaly size has little to do with strength gains. The number of muscle fibres and the ability to use them (nervous system) are what are most important.

Look at the strength feats of the little people, Paul Anderson was impressive, but I consider Arthur Saxon to be more impressive.

[lvleph]

The environment agenda is similar to this agenda I was discussing: a diversion tactic used to fish out people away from more important and immediate political issues like war an occupation.



This is one of the worst examples I can think off: first off you run a charity instead of addressing more fundamental problems caused by capitalism and imperialism, thus solving little or nothing for this people's other than getting a meal once in a while without any real chance of escaping poverty and misery.

Second the meal you provide is actually not nearly enough to give people many nutrients they need in a cost effective way. There has been discussion in this thread of how a vegan diet is hard to get right and balance correctly, often requiring artificial aids or very careful planning. I think people who have infrequent access to food and certainly no access to vitamins and other supplements would benefit more from a meal that would include some meat on it. At the very least other important elements like eggs, milk, cheese, etc.

It any case it wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't a charity, but when a flawed concept like charity is joined by a flawed execution it becomes something specially pointless.



And im sure there are some organic food lovers who do eat meat cause they enjoy it and dont agree with the ethical dilemmas, it doesn't means that the two lines of thought, organic food and vegan/vegetarian diets are not closely tied often advocated by the exact same people, as testimony take this thread where both subjects were brought up to our attention. I don't believe this is a coincidence.

Food Not Bombs is run differently in every chapter. In some chapters the people being fed participate with us, and therefore it is not really a charity. How can you judge the nutrition of meals served, when every FNB chapter is different and serves different food. The main limiting factor to food served by FNB is what can be found for free. The only reason I can see calling FNB a charity is because we have to use our time to prepare the food. The food in many chapters comes from dumpstering. If the food is already there how can it be considered charity. The only thing they are providing is the service. I agree that what should be done in many chapters, that is not necessarily being done, is to teach people how to do it for themselves.

Nutrition, I myself have been a vegetarian for 15+ years. I have never taken any supplements, and I don't pay special attention to what nutritional value is in my food. During the time I have been a vegetarian I was a skateboarder, skating 8+ hrs a day. I use to be able to run a mile in under 5 minutes. And now I regularly ride my bike over 30 miles a few times a week. I am also an avid long distance hiker and love to hike 15 to 20 miles a day. And truthfully, I just eat what I feel like eating. I have never understood those that claim they have had health issues from eating vegetarian or even vegan. Not saying they didn't, because everyone is different, but it has not been an issue with me.

[mikeize]

Dmitriid,

surely you realize that there is a good deal of overlap between the vegetarian and peace-activist "communities". I mean, it's almost a cliche, isn't it? Caring about animals and the environment doesn't preclude one from caring about people! In fact, many feel that on the contrary, these are ALL different facets to one ethical system: "minimize harm".

Food not Bombs is not simply "a charity". Part of their whole idea is to take food out of commerce. Whether you see hunger as indicative of deeper problems (it certainly is), where is your "human compassion" for those who are hungry today? FNB helps to feed them. Furthermore, they put food in bellies that would often otherwise be wasted/thrown out! What's wrong with that? AND, everytime someone spends less or no money to eat... that is fewer tax dollars being spent to bomb and occupy other peoples' homes.

I can understand your anger, but you seem to have a very 2 dimensional view of vegetarian individuals and philosophy. I hope this discussion can change that in some small way.

-mike

[lvleph]

I personally think that the Peace Movement is a diversion tactic used to fish out people away from more important and immediate political issues like the class war and imperial occupation.

Dimitriid parts are in italics.

[jeffus_il]

Someone who has fed someone else has succeeded in what they set out to.
Someone who has great ideas about eliminating poverty and is critical of a kind deed has not succeeded in doing anything.

[Nano Geek]

Well, this thread has taken an interesting turn.Agreed.

It starts out as someone asking for help becoming a Vegetarian and it's now at the point of discussing population control and how inefficient American cars are. :confused:

Can we stay on topic? Please?

[lvleph]

Agreed.

It starts out as someone asking for help becoming a Vegetarian and it's now at the point of discussing population control and how inefficient American cars are. :confused:

Can we stay on topic? Please?

But really to alotvegetarians this is on topic. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle not just a diet.

[LaRoza]

But really to alotvegetarians this is on topic. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle not just a diet.
It is a diet to me....

Everything is a "lifestyle", if it is part of your life.

I reported this thread, and asked it to be closed.

It was a simple vegatarian thread, asking for advice and thoughts, and now is policitical (somehow).

[Perfect Storm]

This thread have gone way out of topic for long.
Thread closed.