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lao_V
September 12th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Lately, I've been seeing quite a few locked threads on this forum. I've considered Ubuntuforums to be the best community, and at the point that I joined it, it had great sense of eagerness to help others. So seeing these locked threads, I feel a bit disheartened. It also gives the community a bad impression.

I understand that a lot of people have strong views and at times can get carried away which could result in a thread being locked.

So I would like to suggest that the moderators on this forum play an active role in trying to steer a topic into the right, productive direction, whenever possible.

This may not always be possible considering how active this forum is. But, I think we should make every effort possible.

XDevHald
September 12th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Lately, I've been seeing quite a few locked threads on this forum. I've considered Ubuntuforums to be the best community, and at the point that I joined it, it had great sense of eagerness to help others. So seeing these locked threads, I feel a bit disheartened. It also gives the community a bad impression.

I understand that a lot of people have strong views and at times can get carried away which could result in a thread being locked.

So I would like to suggest that the moderators on this forum play an active role in trying to steer a topic into the right, productive direction, whenever possible.

This may not always be possible considering how active this forum is. But, I think we should make every effort possible.
So in other words you're asking that instead of just locking them automatically, that they try to take it into another course to keep the topic from being locked and discussions open?

Correct me if I am wrong please.

lao_V
September 12th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Locking should be left as a last resort when other means have been exhausted. Trying to acknowledge the issue, if there is one and providing alternative/solutions would be a starting point.

For eg, in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=64760&highlight=arms) I believe mods could have done more than just pointing out the obvious. And it was left on for far too long for everyone to take their shots instead of turning it into right direction. Maybe they could have acknowledged "Yes there are some issues with Linux/Ubuntu (or why else would we have a forum with so many issues threads?) which are constantly being addressed. What other suggestions do you have to improve the software?"

I know its virtually impossible to moderate all the threads but a selective monitoring of "flame-type" topics should be quite easy.

Maybe we need to increase the number of mods considering how big the community has become?

Just my thoughts.

XDevHald
September 12th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Locking should be left as a last resort when other means have been exhausted. Trying to acknowledge the issue, if there is one and providing alternative/solutions would be a starting point.

For eg, in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=64760&highlight=arms) I believe mods could have done more than just pointing out the obvious. And it was left on for far too long for everyone to take their shots instead of turning it into right direction. Maybe they could have acknowledged "Yes there are some issues with Linux/Ubuntu (or why else would we have a forum with so many issues threads?) which are constantly being addressed. What other suggestions do you have to improve the software?"

I know its virtually impossible to moderate all the threads but a selective monitoring of "flame-type" topics should be quite easy.

Maybe we need to increase the number of mods considering how big the community has become?

Just my thoughts.
To be very honest I have to agree with the mod increasing. 8 mods in which should be increased to 12 to help out with the problems, such as the one you're pointing out. Now, yes I also agree with your statement on directing it correctly and locking it so other directions don't come about and make the questioning an even bigger deal when it's already been pointed out.

Well said, and I am sure this will be noticed pretty quickly.

ubuntu-geek
September 12th, 2005, 03:35 PM
We are planning on adding some more MOD's in the next few weeks.

jdong
September 14th, 2005, 12:23 AM
I still uphold most lockings that we've done.

There gets to a point when conversations just go out of hand. For example, if a person ridicules a religion, it's fairly impossible for a mod to correct the situation. It's better to stop the discussion at that point.

There's been a gradual but significant shift to a "RTFM/STFU" attitude here, both in the Chat and technical forums. New users are actually being driven away by this perceived arrogance. I plain don't like it, and will do everything in my power to restore our once-friendly environment.

KiwiNZ
September 14th, 2005, 01:31 AM
Here here , I totally agree .

lerrup
September 16th, 2005, 06:49 AM
There's been a gradual but significant shift to a "RTFM/STFU" attitude here, both in the Chat and technical forums. New users are actually being driven away by this perceived arrogance. I plain don't like it, and will do everything in my power to restore our once-friendly environment.

I agree. I visited the forums a lot before hoary came out and didn't much again until I upgraded to breezy,

There has been a marked change in attitudes as previously there was a "where all in this together" feeling. This was so pervasive that even kde vs gnome arguements were fairly civilised. Now, I feel more that I've crashed someone else's party. TThis is mildly depressing as the forums were something that I positively encouraged people to use.

There is also an increase in "Ubuntu sux!", etc. and pseudo-leet speak. *Sigh*

kassetra
September 16th, 2005, 05:54 PM
There is also an increase in "Ubuntu sux!", etc. and pseudo-leet speak. *Sigh*

If/When you see posts/threads that have leet speek (even pseudo), a hostility towards new users, etc. You can click on "report post" - and we'll get a message saying it's been reported. We can then take a look at these areas of concern - because it links us right to it.

We are obviously still adjusting to the rapid growth - but we're working on it - and our policy is still "friendliness," that hasn't and will not change.

skoal
September 16th, 2005, 06:37 PM
[...] and pseudo-leet speak. *Sigh*
oops. I'll raise my hand halfway up. I don't believe I've ever used any l33t like talk (as I understood the Code of Conduct to imply), but on occassion I know I have posted pseudo-grammar-like-code (for emphasis), like here:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=333606&postcount=9
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=319698&postcount=2

...and maybe in a few other places. By no means were those posts meant to be condescending or (l33t'ish), rather, left there as emphasis for other code monkeys who frequent these forums (we're people too!), by sheer accident, or used for the very compact nature it provides me (when, otherwise, I would tend to ramble). I can see where that could be misinterpreted by others, so I'll break myself of that habit. My apologies.

\\//_

mike998
September 16th, 2005, 07:23 PM
oops. I'll raise my hand halfway up. I don't believe I've ever used any l33t like talk (as I understood the Code of Conduct to imply), but on occassion I know I have posted pseudo-grammar-like-code (for emphasis), like here:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=333606&postcount=9
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=319698&postcount=2
\\//_

I don't see anything wrong with your posts. They could even be seen to be self-depricating! ;-)

I have seen a lot of threads being locked recently and in my opinion, that's a good thing. I have no wish to see threads spiral down into name calling, and accusations.

I do agree with some of the postings here that the community seems to have suffered a little recently inasmuch as there have been a number of what could be seen as inflamitory posts. One example was the "I was a soldier who lost a leg in Iraq". By the tone of the post, I could tell it was a Troll, yet the Mods let it run and run, even when I had posted (but not reported) that it was a Troll and probably should have been locked fairly quickly.

We all seem to be getting argumentative and picky at each other. This is not what Ubuntu is about and we all need to take a good look at ourselves and realize that "RTFM" or "STFU" (Don't you love acronyms?) are not a good way of talking to each other or indeed to new members who have heard all these great things about Ubuntu.

We are none of us immune to being nasty or having someone be nasty to us. We define ourselves by our interactions with other people. What's undernath does indeed count but the window into each other's souls are how we treat each other.

I've said it before, and I'll continue saying it - one of the main things that attracted me to Ubuntu was the community - A bunch of VERY helpful and friendly people. The souls of almost everyone here are beacons that shine in the darkness of the internet. These communities have a family feel to them for me, (I've been a contributing member for nearly a year - for me, that's impressive) and families do indeed have arguments with each other.

I've rambled, as I usually do in these circumstances, however my personal guidelines for posting are (usually) -

If I can help, I post.
If I know who can help, I post.
If I know where help can be found, I post.
If I am amused by a post and I want to join in the fun, I post.
If I feel I can contribute to a thread (like this one), I post.
I don't feel the Trolls, IF I feel a post is a Troll - If you ignore them, they go away.
If I am personally offended by a post or I feel a post could be offending to someone, I will report it to a Mod (New rule for myself)

I've run out of steam now, so I will stop.

az
September 16th, 2005, 10:28 PM
If/When you see posts/threads that have leet speek (even pseudo), a hostility towards new users, etc. You can click on "report post" - and we'll get a message saying it's been reported. We can then take a look at these areas of concern - because it links us right to it.

We are obviously still adjusting to the rapid growth - but we're working on it - and our policy is still "friendliness," that hasn't and will not change.
Fiendliness is great, but you must steer clear from censorship. Who is to decide what kind of ideas are to be locked or deleted, although they do not violate the code of conduct?

jdong
September 16th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Fiendliness is great, but you must steer clear from censorship. Who is to decide what kind of ideas are to be locked or deleted, although they do not violate the code of conduct?

That's a typo, right? ;)

Well, as far as "censorship", if it's blatantly offensive, I don't think it should be allowed on the Forums period... I strongly disagree that discussion at a Linux support community should ever get personally offensive!

Leif
September 16th, 2005, 10:44 PM
oops. I'll raise my hand halfway up. I don't believe I've ever used any l33t like talk (as I understood the Code of Conduct to imply), but on occassion I know I have posted pseudo-grammar-like-code (for emphasis), like here:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=333606&postcount=9
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=319698&postcount=2


I'm not quite sure what pseudo-leet means (is it where you try to spell things in l33t and fail?) but I would be very surprised if your posts were seen as offensive in any way. It would be a sad day when a man can't even make a sed joke on a linux forum for fear of political (?) incorrectness.

az
September 17th, 2005, 12:55 AM
That's a typo, right? ;)

Well, as far as "censorship", if it's blatantly offensive, I don't think it should be allowed on the Forums period... I strongly disagree that discussion at a Linux support community should ever get personally offensive!

Yes, it is a typo. I am using a foreign computer at 33.3k, at the moment.

As for censorship, well, censorship is not allowing certain discussions to take place because "we don't want that kind of thing here" or "We will turn into the Gentoo forums" (I never have been on the Gentoo forums, so I do not know what that is supposed to mean. I do know that topics that do not outright violate the code of conduct, but are of a certain flavour get locked or moved to the moderator jail.

This sort of behaviour is unbecoming of the transparency and the openness that inspires Ubuntulinux.

If you take my opinion personally, that is your problem. It is not meant as an attack.

Never has.

jdong
September 17th, 2005, 02:07 AM
Yes, it is a typo. I am using a foreign computer at 33.3k, at the moment.

As for censorship, well, censorship is not allowing certain discussions to take place because "we don't want that kind of thing here" or "We will turn into the Gentoo forums" (I never have been on the Gentoo forums, so I do not know what that is supposed to mean. I do know that topics that do not outright violate the code of conduct, but are of a certain flavour get locked or moved to the moderator jail.

Ok, we definitely hold opposing viewpoints on the issue :)




This sort of behaviour is unbecoming of the transparency and the openness that inspires Ubuntulinux.

Unfortunately, "this sort of behavior", I believe, is exactly what's causing the overall shift from friendly, all-welcoming community to a Debian evangelists' clan. Maybe I'm wrong... but there's only one way to find out.



If you take my opinion personally, that is your problem. It is not meant as an attack.

Never has.
No, I certainly don't take your opinion personally; I simply disagree with your viewpoint, and would like to share with you the way I've been seeing it.

az
September 17th, 2005, 02:44 AM
Unfortunately, "this sort of behavior", I believe, is exactly what's causing the overall shift from friendly, all-welcoming community to a Debian evangelists' clan. Maybe I'm wrong... but there's only one way to find out.

Actually, there are two ways. One way is to put the forum users in charge and make them set the rules. Let a committee of forum members determine what is appropriate and what is not. If that is too difficult, at least put someone who is accountable at the helm. Someone who is able to see that you cannot base the guidelines for a public forum dealing with an open process on *one* point of view.

The second way is to repress any conversation that does not fit in with the forum style. Who determines what is friendly and what is not friendly?

I was told that the same people who are currently deciding this have told the moderators who opposed my recent involuntary relief of duties that if the matter is brought to the Ubuntu Community Council, he would sever contact with the Ubuntu community and the forums would once again become "unofficial".

I wish I could confirm this, but I no longer can read the moderator forums. Is this true?

You are determining what is allowed and what is not allowed on the basis of *style*. Does a discussion about Stalin in the Community chat take away anything from the user who visits the forum to find out the correct way to partition her hard drive?

Ubuntu *is* an all-welcoming community which happens to have a few "debian evangelists" Big deal. If you do not like the way somebody is behaving on the forums, try telling them to stop!


No, I certainly don't take your opinion personally; I simply disagree with your viewpoint, and would like to share with you the way I've been seeing it.
This is the longest reply you have ever given to my thoughs about this issue. Thanks.

jdong
September 17th, 2005, 03:12 AM
I was told that the same people who are currently deciding this have told the moderators who opposed my recent involuntary relief of duties that if the matter is brought to the Ubuntu Community Council, he would sever contact with the Ubuntu community and the forums would once again become "unofficial".

I wish I could confirm this, but I no longer can read the moderator forums. Is this true?

Certainly not... :-/



You are determining what is allowed and what is not allowed on the basis of *style*. Does a discussion about Stalin in the Community chat take away anything from the user who visits the forum to find out the correct way to partition her hard drive?

It absolutely can. A "Stalin discussion" is soon going to diverge into communism vs capitalism, which is probably going to be more of a communist countries vs capitalist countries, which then gets into inferior-superior people, which then gets onto the offensive side. I do not feel that the user who was aided in her partitioning entering Community Chat should have to deal with a mine field of potentially offensive issues.

I'm certainly not the only person to view this offensively. I filed a work report for the school board to investigate on UbuntuForums.org being blocked by the filter, and with a "quick look at the Community Chat" section, they determined that the type of content and people on the site does warrant it blocked...

I've also seen new users that I've invited to the forums run back to Windows thanks to rude comments from the community, even in technical forums....

I see a link between the rowdiness of Community Chat and the professionalism in the technical sections...


Ubuntu *is* an all-welcoming community which happens to have a few "debian evangelists" Big deal. If you do not like the way somebody is behaving on the forums, try telling them to stop!


Not everyone listens to that. :)

jdong
September 17th, 2005, 03:23 AM
This issue is certainly an important one for the forum as we grow each day and encounter new issues.

The staff fully acknowledges the controversy at hand, and we believe that we've received enough input on both sides through this thread. Thanks everyone who've contributed to this discussion.

At this point, however, I'd like to close this discussion, and have our staff fully tear this issue down, and come up with a good solution for the community, along with consulting Canonical on their views.

poofyhairguy
September 17th, 2005, 04:27 AM
I just wanted to add one thing:

Us mods try to really not use the lock buttons. I hate to use them. We try to edit and ask things to stay on course. If you have been seeing more locked threads that is because there are more threads.

Good day.

ubuntu-geek
September 17th, 2005, 04:39 AM
The second way is to repress any conversation that does not fit in with the forum style. Who determines what is friendly and what is not friendly?

I was told that the same people who are currently deciding this have told the moderators who opposed my recent involuntary relief of duties that if the matter is brought to the Ubuntu Community Council, he would sever contact with the Ubuntu community and the forums would once again become "unofficial".

I wish I could confirm this, but I no longer can read the moderator forums. Is this true?



I think you have your information VERY VERY wrong azz. Please if you are going to continue to post on the forums do not mis-information and spread lies. You were let go of your duties for a variety of reasons.