Microsoft tries, and fails, to recruit open-source guru

[newbie2]

" Microsoft Corp. may be softening its rhetoric against Linux and open-source software, but that doesn't mean the company is ever going to be able to hire Eric Raymond. Earlier this week, a recruiter from the software vendor tried to lure Raymond, one of the open-source movement's most visible boosters, he said in an interview Friday.

On Thursday, Raymond received an e-mail pitch from a Microsoft recruiter asking him if he'd be interested in discussing a position. "
http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,104530,00.html
http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=208

[Sushi]

Eric Raymond is an useless windbag, and less he speaks, the better off Linux is. Seriously, what has he done? Yes, he wrote "Cathedral and Bazaar" but that's it. His software-feats are limited to handful of semi-useful apps, yet he talks of himself like he's the best coder on the planet.

"I'm your worst nightmare" Good one Eric! Such insight, such rational behavior from you. Seriously, just STFU!

[Kvark]

The response email he sent to Microsoft is as zealotsy, immature and scary as it gets.

Here is another thread on the subject:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63988

[Sushi]

The response email he sent to Microsoft is as zealotsy, immature and scary as it gets.

Here is another thread on the subject:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63988

That's the thing I was referring to.

ESR acts like he's somekind of uber-hacker, when in fact his accomplishments are not nearly as great enough to warrant such an inflated ego. Someone posted this (http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code) on Slashdot, and it seems to be an accurate description of his accomplishments :)

[N'Jal]

frankly i think Raymond did right. I mean MS are buying in Linux community members. You think it's to experiment with Linux? Highly unlikly, gurilla warfare, take out the commanding officers and perhaps the troops will scatter.

I can't claim to know of Raymonds feats buy quite frankly he is a big player, all opinion aside, he is a big player. Therefore a threat to MS. Now we as Linux users want to simply exist, without all the FUD, however various companies exist for different aims, and the existance of another alternative is damaging to them. Wheather we went to or not we are a threat MS wants removed.

So Ms strategy would be to buy out the help of those that know how Linux works, for thier own reasons.

I am no zealot but seriously just by the existance of Linux we are encroaching on thier turf as far as MS is concerened. Even though most of us know our aims are totally different to that of MS, to them we are a threat.

Now MS are that big they think they can do anythings, it takes balls to turn around and say no. Would YOU be able to refuse the MS salery?

[bob_c_b]

I don't agree with everything ESR says or does, but those of you quick to dismiss him are wrong; much of his work has been almost anthropology for the F/OSS culture and should not be dismissed. Yes, he comes across as petulant many times, but that does not diminish his work.

[N'Jal]

Thanks man, i think in a community such as ourself we need to suport each and everyone of us. Are we there doing what Raymond is doing? Could any of us do it? Maybe one day we will find out.

We are ALL guilty of slagging of ourselves, we are divided against ourself and nothing that is divided against itself will survive, all the Linux users only really band together when threatened by a greater threat than what comes from within ourselves (EU software patients anyone).

Debian users don't like us because we have made a more popular debian based distro that has become sucessful. Loads of people don't like linspire because it focuses on being windows like. some folk don't like gentoo because it's hard to install. We kinda shun RPM because we beliveve deb is a better system. You know we are divided against ourself. I am guilty of this myself i don't like Mandrake but i see where i am going wrong.

Thankfully some people are changing this, the autopackage program is fantastic because it unites distros.

We need to start encouraging people in our community, i mean the Linux community, not the Ubuntu community, personally, writing this has showed me a few thigns about myself and i hope that this has showed some of you that there needs to be some attitude changes in the bigger picture.

EDIT: I am not prophecying the end of Linux, i hope Linux never dies, and indeed believe it never will, but you know we need to take a look in the mirror and see whats looking back at us.

[bob_c_b]

Thanks man, i think in a community such as ourself we need to suport each and everyone of us.

I agree completely. We are attempting to shift the goals of an industry controlled by a few juggernauts, clearly they are not pleased. When we fight amongst ourselves we hurt the whole movement. I read a lot of negative stuff about ESR, Linspire, RedHat, Ian, Debian, etc... This is ridiculous, we all have the same goal, to see Linux suceed. Not one of us is perfect and we will never agree on every single aspect of this thing we all support, but unless someone is really getting waaaay outside the philosophy we should offer contructive criticism but remain supportive.

We do not need a single, uber distro. We do not want a single, ultimate leader or singular voice. We want a semi-democratic group to provide useful solutions while adhering as closely as we can to F/OSS philosophy and the GPL. This is a not a static creation, it will shift and evolve and goals and ideas will evolve. Evolution is somewhat painful and should encourage debate, but we should not seek to immediately beat down each new thing that emerges from our primordial soup.

Peace.

[N'Jal]

i think that you and me are operating on the same wave length here.



We do not need a single, uber distro. We do not want a single, ultimate leader or singular voice.

Not at all no, i, personally would never use Mandriva but i am learning it fills a need that we do not, it obviously does something we do not, else those that use Mandriva wouldbe using Ubuntu. We just need to learn to work together. I am all for different package managers but, each works in a different way, someone didn't want to use deb, so Redhat created RPM.

It would be interesting to see if there is anyone who disagrees.

[Sushi]

frankly i think Raymond did right.

By trying to convice MS that open-source movement is composed of arrogant people with mental capacities of 10 year olds?

[Knome_fan]

By trying to convice MS that open-source movement is composed of arrogant people with mental capacities of 10 year olds?

Well, at least his response amused me, but than again, I know that I sometimes have the humor of a 10 year old. :grin:

And I don't think you should take what Raymond does to seriously anyway, so no need to really get upset.

Anyway, I think what's really hilarious here is that and how MS had the idea to hire someone like him in the first place.

[Sushi]

I don't agree with everything ESR says or does, but those of you quick to dismiss him are wrong; much of his work has been almost anthropology for the F/OSS culture and should not be dismissed. Yes, he comes across as petulant many times, but that does not diminish his work.

What "work" exactly? An essay that influenced the movement, yes. But that's about it. His works on software are next to laughable (although he like to think he's some kind of uber-hacker like Linus). He has a delusions of grandieur, and he's arrogant as hell. There are LOTS of other people we should be looking up to, but ESR is not one of them. His only accomplishment seems to be that he's pretty good at riding on the coat-tails of Linus, RMS and others. He calls himself "core Linux developer", but what exactly has he developed? He hasn't contributed any code to the kernel (his suggested kernel config-tool was flat-out rejected)

And then there's the issue of him re-doing the hacker-dictionary. He's literally turning that thing to his own image. According to him, hackers are often leaned towards right, and are interested in guns. Huh?

Few months ago ESR said in a conference that "we do not need the GPL anymore". If you want to support him, go right ahead. I for one don't want to have anything to do with him.

[Sushi]

And I don't think you should take what Raymond does to seriously anyway, so no need to really get upset.

Like it or not, he's quite often in the media speaking for Linux and/or open-source. I repeat: the less he says, the better off we are.

[mark]

Frankly, I find the bulk of Eric Raymond's and Richard Stallman's public pronouncements appalling...

[N'Jal]

ok so maybe he was a little immature. So maybe he talks out of his ****. But i personally think that if we have nothing constructive to say about something within our own community don't say anything or, to have a pro approach email him, nicly of course. pointing out where he could possibly improve his public speaking. By calling him a zealot you are sinking down to his level, i make no effert to defend any one individual in the linux community however, i do wish to defent the community itself, since inward fighting gets us nowhere.

If he's not helping us (i honestly don't know, not have bothered to research) help him because he is obviously passionate about linux, so his heart is in the right place. He's just not an effective communicator.

[Kvark]

Well, the email he sent this time was definately zealot like, or at least it was possible to say no in a more polite and constructive way. But he is very good with words when he wants to. He proved that with the 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar' essay. Everyone does and writes some stupid things and some good things, this guy too. Maybe he isn't a hero, but he isn't a villian either, can we all agree on something in between?

[bob_c_b]

What "work" exactly? An essay that influenced the movement, yes. But that's about it. His works on software are next to laughable (although he like to think he's some kind of uber-hacker like Linus). He has a delusions of grandieur, and he's arrogant as hell. There are LOTS of other people we should be looking up to, but ESR is not one of them. His only accomplishment seems to be that he's pretty good at riding on the coat-tails of Linus, RMS and others. He calls himself "core Linux developer", but what exactly has he developed? He hasn't contributed any code to the kernel (his suggested kernel config-tool was flat-out rejected)

And then there's the issue of him re-doing the hacker-dictionary. He's literally turning that thing to his own image. According to him, hackers are often leaned towards right, and are interested in guns. Huh?

Few months ago ESR said in a conference that "we do not need the GPL anymore". If you want to support him, go right ahead. I for one don't want to have anything to do with him.

As I said, I don't agree with everything he says and does. But I'm also not willing to write off what he tries to do and often suceeds at. Perhaps you weren't around for the Halloween Papers, his vicarious work on marketing Linux and OSS, etc.. And that "essay" you are willing to credit him for is the kind of thing many university academics milk a whole career out of. The fact he continues to push new boundaries and isn't afraid to disagree with the F/OSS rank and file is what makes him valuable (and his ability to garner press would make him an awful enemy). Regarding your post...

I don't know enough about his code to debate the matter, but so far it sounds like you are quoting the vitrol fron Slashdot.

The work on the NHD is submitted by many and only maintained by ESR, again I think you are repeating Slashdot vitrol. I read headlines there every day but try to avoid the discussions as they are loaded with bad information (yes there are good post, but you have to work more and more to find them). Yes, some of his inflamatorty nature has seeped through to the NHD, and some if it has been removed by his own hand (and by others).

And as for his statement about the GPL, read the whole story (http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/30/esr_interview.html) and decide for yourself. I don't agree with it either, but clearly it wasn't some offhand/arbitrary statement, he does have reasoning behind it (again that I don't disagree with either).

Again, I find some of what ESR says out of line as well, but he is a well recognized and know member of this community. I have seen more than a few people frozen out of the F/OSS movement when their words and actions were deemed more trouble than people were willing to deal with. Honestly, if the upper echelon of the F/OSS movement wanted him out he would be.

[Mishura]

Well, the email he sent this time was definitely zealot like, or at least it was possible to say no in a more polite and constructive way. But he is very good with words when he wants to. He proved that with the 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar' essay. Everyone does and writes some stupid things and some good things, this guy too. Maybe he isn't a hero, but he isn't a villian either, can we all agree on something in between?

ESR is an "interesting character" in the F/OSS scene. Thats probably as far as he can get too. Not to rag on him, in fact I find him funny sometimes, a bit immature other times. His contributions don't equate to Richard Stallman, nor Linus Torvalds and co., but he's still "there".

If ESR were to get more respect, he'd have to actually commit some more "code", instead of just talking alot. In the F/OSS world, its not what you say, its what you DO. This is probably why Linus is way more respected than RMS or ESR. That, and Linus' philosophy is more in tune with a lot of the more "practical" geeks among us, me included: Its software, its not a religion.

RMS did do alot of coding in the past, but nowadays he just talks.. and although a lot of what he says makes sense, he can be seen a bit, extreme. I don't believe *Everything* has to be Free Software, but I'd like to have a F/OSS equivalent to every proprietary solution. Let both Proprietary and F/OSS compete on equal ground, on technical merits and price than anything else. Thats how innovation will eventually come about.

But back to the subject at hand, his response is indeed immature, and I would've answered differently, along the lines of "respectfully decline, blah blah.." instead of saying "I'm your worst nightmare", which he isn't. There is no *I* in MS's worst nightmare. It's everyone that makes great programs and strives to create the best Operating System and suite of Free applications possible. Anyone that directly competes with MS is their nightmare, and ESR isn't it.

Besides, if ESR did accept MS's proposal, it wouldn't matter much. Even if Linus was hired by MS, kernel development would still continue. Most likely Andrew Morton would take over and all would be as well. We (F/OSS, Linux, etc) *can't* be bought, because it's technically not feasible.

[az]

By trying to convice MS that open-source movement is composed of arrogant people with mental capacities of 10 year olds?

He was reponsable for Microsfot getting a fair amount of bad press, in favor of open source software. That is what he meant by "worst nightmare".

And please do not put "STFU" in another post. It is quite close to violating the code of conduct.

[Sushi]

And please do not put "STFU" in another post. It is quite close to violating the code of conduct.

My "STFU" was pointed towards ESR, not anyone on this forum.

[Sushi]

As I said, I don't agree with everything he says and does. But I'm also not willing to write off what he tries to do and often suceeds at. Perhaps you weren't around for the Halloween Papers

I most certainly was around back then. What was his accomplishment there? someone mailed the documents to him, and he merely published them, along with some comments.


I don't know enough about his code to debate the matter, but so far it sounds like you are quoting the vitrol fron Slashdot.

judge for yourself (http://www.catb.org/~esr/software.html). See anything worthwhile? Fetchmail? Your average KDE/Gnome/Kernel-developer is order of magnitude more productive and important as far as code is concerned. Yet those people don't march around shouting "I'm the greatest coder on the planet!".

Yes, I dislike ESR, and I'm not afraid to say it. Maybe he was important in the past. But today he seems to be riding on his past glory.

P.S. another insteresting essay by ESR (http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-06-28-023-10-NW-SM#talkback_area). "Show them the code, RMS!". Huh? RMS and FSF must "show the code"? Why doesn't ESR "show the code" instead? Let's see who comes out top. Fetchmail vs. GCC?

yes, the more I find out about ESR, the less I like him.

[N'Jal]

RMS did do alot of coding in the past, but nowadays he just talks..

There's a very good reason for this, he broke his arm and being and old man his bones aren't heaing as well as a younger person, and the break was in such a place that it causes a fair ammount of pain when he types.

He has a record of illness, like in the 80's i beleive he was typeing so fast his hands locked up and he needed a scribe because he needed to simply rest his hands.

As for ESR
if the upper echelon of the F/OSS movement wanted him out he would be. is very true, i mean if he was doing more damage than good as far as Linus could tell im sure there would be a big shake up.

[az]

My "STFU" was pointed towards ESR, not anyone on this forum.

It is still disrespectful and not tolerated. We locked a "paint a moustache on Bill Gates photo" thread for the same reason.

[Sushi]

It is still disrespectful and not tolerated. We locked a "paint a moustache on Bill Gates photo" thread for the same reason.

My apologies

[bob_c_b]

Yes, I dislike ESR, and I'm not afraid to say it. Maybe he was important in the past. But today he seems to be riding on his past glory.

P.S. another insteresting essay by ESR (http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-06-28-023-10-NW-SM#talkback_area). "Show them the code, RMS!". Huh? RMS and FSF must "show the code"? Why doesn't ESR "show the code" instead? Let's see who comes out top. Fetchmail vs. GCC?

yes, the more I find out about ESR, the less I like him.

How about you read the article you linked to and place it in proper context, that essay was not a debate about quality or one app vs another but a period where RMS was backing away from many OSS projects due to politics. I don't really care if you like ESR or not but most of your opinion is based on information that doesn't apply or that you are not comprehending. Before you go slagging the guy for his code let's see what you have written lately? Or a list of your efforts to promote F/OSS and open standards? You can dislike him but if you are going to discredit all he has done as minor or useless then I hope you have some personal examples of better work to show?

[Sushi]

Before you go slagging the guy for his code let's see what you have written lately?

Why? I mean, I don't claim to be some uber-hacker. Hell, I couldn't code my way out of an empty room! But ESR does claim to be some kind of uber-hacker, but his exploits in the field of software doesn't seem to support that claim.


Or a list of your efforts to promote F/OSS and open standards?

I don't claim to be some "open-source leader" like ESR does. But I have helped organise Linux-events, I have evangelised, supported, filed bug-reports and the like.


You can dislike him but if you are going to discredit all he has done as minor or useless then I hope you have some personal examples of better work to show?

Why should I have? Like I said, I don't claim to be an uber-coder. I don't claim to me "Microsofts worst nightmare". I don't claim to be "Core Linux Developer". ESR claims all that, let's see some credentials. I don't have to prove that I'm some kind of uber-hacker since I have never claimed that I am one.

[az]

ESR claims all that, let's see some credentials. I don't have to prove that I'm some kind of uber-hacker since I have never claimed that I am one.

You have hijacked this thread and now you are very repettitive. please stop and let the thread go on. We get your point. Thank you.

[XDevHald]

This thread is leading to bashing and is not tolerated at all.
This needs to be closed and not open for anymore discussions.

[Asgaard]

i'm a beginner on foss culture, and about the only book i read throughtout is Raymond's Art of Unix Programming. now i can't believe the same guy who wrote that acts like this... he seems a lot more integer and mature on the book, but i suppose you don't get a book published acting like that either.

though, on his behalf and imho, that book should be handed out in CS courses at universities.

[piedamaro]

I don't appreciate much his style, I think he had done a lot tho.
...I always thinked that he considered himself an hacker but not a coder in first place. Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm glad he still doesn't work for microsoft, while sadly some others do. (Daniel Robbins, gentoo founder).
That's life ;)

[noob_Lance]

frankly i think Raymond did right. I mean MS are buying in Linux community members. You think it's to experiment with Linux? Highly unlikly, gurilla warfare, take out the commanding officers and perhaps the troops will scatter.

I can't claim to know of Raymonds feats buy quite frankly he is a big player, all opinion aside, he is a big player. Therefore a threat to MS. Now we as Linux users want to simply exist, without all the FUD, however various companies exist for different aims, and the existance of another alternative is damaging to them. Wheather we went to or not we are a threat MS wants removed.

So Ms strategy would be to buy out the help of those that know how Linux works, for thier own reasons.

I am no zealot but seriously just by the existance of Linux we are encroaching on thier turf as far as MS is concerened. Even though most of us know our aims are totally different to that of MS, to them we are a threat.

Now MS are that big they think they can do anythings, it takes balls to turn around and say no. Would YOU be able to refuse the MS salery?


Accept the salary ( i kno a friend of a friend that jsutgot hired by microsoft), but keep up the open source in your spare time... what are they going to do.. fire you.. so what.. if they recruted you.. that means they want you there.. its like going in undercover..

[mstlyevil]

Accept the salary ( i kno a friend of a friend that jsutgot hired by microsoft), but keep up the open source in your spare time... what are they going to do.. fire you.. so what.. if they recruted you.. that means they want you there.. its like going in undercover..

The problem with that is when you go to work for a corporation like MSFT, you sign a legal document saying all coding you do at work or in your spare time is MSFT property and that you must get permission to copyright it or ditstribute it.
I have worked for several large corporations and everyone required me to sign a simmular document even if the invention or intelectual property does not pertain to what the company produces. This is why you cannot both code for MSFT and Open Source at the same time.

[ardchoille]

frankly i think Raymond did right. I mean MS are buying in Linux community members. You think it's to experiment with Linux? Highly unlikly, gurilla warfare, take out the commanding officers and perhaps the troops will scatter.

I can't claim to know of Raymonds feats buy quite frankly he is a big player, all opinion aside, he is a big player. Therefore a threat to MS. Now we as Linux users want to simply exist, without all the FUD, however various companies exist for different aims, and the existance of another alternative is damaging to them. Wheather we went to or not we are a threat MS wants removed.

So Ms strategy would be to buy out the help of those that know how Linux works, for thier own reasons.

I am no zealot but seriously just by the existance of Linux we are encroaching on thier turf as far as MS is concerened. Even though most of us know our aims are totally different to that of MS, to them we are a threat.

Now MS are that big they think they can do anythings, it takes balls to turn around and say no. Would YOU be able to refuse the MS salery?
I am probably the biggest Linux zealot on the planet, and yes, I would refuse ANY salary from Microsoft. It's not the money, it's the thought behind F/OSS. I can't trust my computer (and the info it processes) to a closed source OS that is designed and distributed by a monopolistic corporation who breaks laws at their leisure. If I can't trust the software or the company, I wouldn't trust working for them either.

I am loyal to Linux.. there isn't anything in this universe that would change my loyalty. I have helped 91 people and businesses switch from Windows to Linux and I will never stop as long as there is breath in my lungs and blood in my veins. I have made it my personal crusade to kill Microsoft one-user-at-a-time.

Long Live Linux!

[taseal]

I am probably the biggest Linux zealot on the planet, and yes, I would refuse ANY salary from Microsoft. It's not the money, it's the thought behind F/OSS. I can't trust my computer (and the info it processes) to a closed source OS that is designed and distributed by a monopolistic corporation who breaks laws at their leisure. If I can't trust the software or the company, I wouldn't trust working for them either.

I am loyal to Linux.. there isn't anything in this universe that would change my loyalty. I have helped 91 people and businesses switch from Windows to Linux and I will never stop as long as there is breath in my lungs and blood in my veins. I have made it my personal crusade to kill Microsoft one-user-at-a-time.

Long Live Linux!

wow, some strong words there lol